Give up these games and find salvation while there is still time!

Bibleman (http://www.dakebibleboard.com/)

I'm gonna get in early, i dont think anyone will pay any attention to this post, likely they will laugh it off, and it will be worse off for them (given that quitting would be good for them). Also, if you knew anything about people, having been told "give up your satanic games" about their favourite pastime in exchange for religion which offers no forseeable gain in the immediate future, they will not give a positive response to your cause.

Which Satanic activity would that be?

Trying to force people to falsly accept your gods and so doom themselves to hell, by christian dogma?

Forcing christian polytheism on others, like making them pray to a variety of "saints" instead of only to god as god decreed?

Torturing people over to your own point of view?

Posting bullshit conversion crap on boards that have nothing to do with it?

Satan doesn't exist in Norrath, niether does Rabbi Yehesus (Jesus in modern lingo). Do you mean to tell the lizzies to stop worshipping Cazic Thule?

Next time try "stop your evil Christian activities" or better yet just take your crap, stick it in your jock strap and snap it.


Apologies to EQ players, self-righteous and ignorant RL crusaders piss me off.

i feel the love <3

FUCK OFF GOD BOY.

Allah Ackbar!

JUDIST PRIEST!

I think I will leave this up for a bit.Maybe, L2 or Faust can go over and school em ;)

i wanna hate, but dont wanna take time to register =/

FUCK RELIGION!

Having died at age ten and ofcourse being revived, I can't wait till people like this see that their idea of heaven isn't anything like they are told it is.

JUDIST PRIEST


Dude, Priest fucking rocks!

Breaking the Law bitch!11!1

Anyone feel like posting that link on the SZ board I want to watch a message board start to cry.

I'm clearly posting that this thread is XXX Rated, and has vulgar profane language. So, I don't want to hear any bullcrap *** complaints, especially you Jeff. Mark my word, Jeff is here listening, because Satan sent Jeff to spy on us for his team. My filter is censoring much of my profanity, in case minors pop in to read my thread. This is God's locker room outside of the world. What we say in here is private. It stays in our locker room.

God recruited me out off the streets. He knows that I have a foul mouth. Yet, what he appreciates about me, is that I have taken the time to study and learn the word of God, as well as any I meet. Plus, I have street sense, about popping corn, which the rest of you pretend like you don't have. The new name is popping corn
Quote:Yet, it has many older names like: beat, scam, flam, flim flam, fleece, drop a pigeon, diddle, dipsy doodle, hocus pocus, hustle, milk the moo moo, screw, pull a trick, pull the wool over your eyes, burn, sucker, make a patsy of, run a game, walk on, take for a ride, or use someone. The bottomline, popping corn is people playing games with words to rip your *** off. The game is to butter your *** up. It's like toss a dog a bone, he'll come running. The Evil team is a bunch of street *** mother@#%$ I , just like Jeff. They know that Gods people aren't street wise like them. So, they are popping corn in the Church. Don't play dumb Jeff, like you don't know what the @#%$ I am talking about. Get real. We are shooting straight from the hip. The Church has become a popcorn factory.

When, God recruited me off the streets, then he made me a popcorn buster. This means that I can say whatever the @#%$ I need to say, as long as I can wake you Christians up and clean up God's house. The Evil team is popping corn on your asses. If I can get the Good team back in the game scoring points, and we win the victory against the Evil team, then God will forgive my vulgar *** mouth and award me eternal life with Christ.

Now, that we have all the trivial bullcrap straighten out, let's get down to the real @#5$. It's half time. I am like a coach, and you are like the players. The war game is Good VS Evil. The first half is over. The Evil team is kicking the living @#%$ out of the Good team. My job, as the coach, is to get the Good team ready for the final half.

The Evil's team of false prophets and antichrists are spreading popcorn for you Christians to chew on. The popcorn, which the mother@#%$ on Evil's team is spreading is that pride or high self-esteem is good. You dumb asses are eating the popcorn and feeding it to your children. Your ignorant asses don't know what the @#%$ is going on. You know dam well that God don't @#%$ with any high swollen up as popcorn. God's corn is lying on the floor, and not puffed up.

Feeding this popcorn to your children is @#%$ing up their head. You see, God can't command his children anymore. When God's children begin eating popcorn, then their spirits become puffed up like Satan. They start to acting rebellious, stubborn, unruly, hardheaded, foolish and brave like Evil Knevil. The popcorn is converting God's children into dare devils. These dare devils are daring God to @#%$ with them. @#%$ you God. @#%$ your word. @#%$ going to Church. @#%$ baptism of water or even the Holy Ghost. @#%$ reading the Bible. God's children are growing up feeling that they can do whatever the @#%$ they please.

When God's children get this popcorn, dare devil, Evil Knevil *** spirit, then Satan begins to @#%$ with their heads. He begins sending them delusions. He makes your little girls think they ought to be little boys. He makes your little boys, think they ought be little girls. Then, they start to tattooing their flesh and @#%$ up their hair. They start listening to this crazy, vulgar music. They start drinking, drugging, carjacking, robbing, raping and all kinds of bullcrap. They start lusting after sex and money. Yet, It's not really about the sex or the money. Rather, its the joy they get from eating the popcorn. It's like yeah, I tricked you bitch, you thought I was this, yet I fooled your dumb *** . Have you been feeding your kids the cereal with the little rabbit on the the box Trix are for Kids. The Evil team is tricking God's children into believing that the real world is full of tricks. You dumb *** still don't get it, do you?

Mark my word, that if you wake up and follow after Christ, and clean up God's house, then God will poke a pin in your children's popcorn and let the air come out. Their popcorn will start to deflating and coming down to earth and reality. Their eyes will begin to open up to the light. They will start seeing the truth which is Christ. They will stop trying to make up a self identity. Instead, they will begin identifying with Christ. They will begin showing sorrow and pity for those, whom they have hurt. They will come to Christ asking for forgiveness.

Okay, I have coached each of the Good team players to the truth about popcorn, which Satan and his Evil Team are spreading throughout the world. When you leave our locker room to return back into the world, then don't be guilty of going around spreading anymore popcorn about God's word. If you do, then God has a penalty waiting for you. Mark my word, you don't want to @#%$ with God.

You may look at me as an oxy moron with a foul mouth for starting a thread on corn. But, please don't try to put a muzzle on my mouth, because I am doing God's work.

Quote:1Cor9
[9] For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
PS: I apologize to all my brothers and sisters, I am not picking at anyone, or your lifestyle. God knows I am guilty of eating the same popcorn as you.
Quote:Rom3 [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Lord please forgive my foul mouth

Bibleman (http://www.dakebibleboard.com/)

FUCK YOU MOTHERFUCKER.

Go take a .45 hollow point and paint the wall with your brains.

Too bad you aren't back out on "the street", so someone could enact some street justice on your pathetic fucking ass. Beat you into a fucking coma.

But, please don't try to put a muzzle on my mouth, because I am doing God's work.

Fuck God's work, Fuck you and your whole operation.

o.o

I still really like Judas Priest man!


Please don't take away my Priest! Although Dimmu Borgir is rapidly working it's way to the top with me.. Good band. What were we all yelling about again?

Hey preacher man shouldnt you be more worried about your peers touching little kids then worrying about a video game? You are one stupid fuck hiding behind a veil of fairy tales and and worthless vows.

You want to find peace and hope? Look for it in yourself you stupid ass because no magical fairy tale written by man is gonna do that for ya.

Xregg

Well after some thought ive decided to introduce this holy man to the eq masses same way i did with Shawne Woolys mother.

Ive began posting his message boards on the zek server forums and will post them elsewhere as well. Im sure the boys will have fun talking about eq on his forums :)

Mods can we leave this up for a while to sit back and watch the fun that is coming on his boards?


Xregg

Maybe YOU should read this:

http://www.howardhallis.com/bis/cthulhuchick/01.jpg

Err this ONE (http://www.howardhallis.com/bis/cthulhuchick/) i mean :P

WWJD

http://hometown.aol.com/snogs74/images/cleric.jpg

...


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AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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~snickers~
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AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Post count +1.

o...m...g... that long ass post was probably the stupidest thing I have ever read in my entire life. Thank you.

head hurts..

must have relief..

ow!

I want PIE!!!! :(

i say it again...

JUDIST PRIEST

the thing i dont get is he wants people off the street yet he is saying that a game that people play that keeps them off the streets and such is satanic... DAMN YOU JEFF!!! come get your lil brother and take him home plz... this is is the top 5 most pointless posts i have seen recently :(

You're all going to hell btw.

http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/bible-devil.gif

>You're all going to hell btw.

because jeff says so?

Allah Ackbar! -Zehn

http://www.islamcan.com/miracles/allahinarabic.jpg

http://www.parnasas.com/PopArena/Articles/potato/1newgraphics/akbar1.jpg

RELIGION! IT'S A TRAP!

I want my 3 minutes back. :(

EDIT: Sig too big. No larger than 450x150 please.

BTW - So I click into this link, and guess what advertisement I got?

Take a peek! (http://mywebpage.netscape.com/SlPrstss6/satan.gif)

:rollin

To be honest, I'm actually quite suprised that many who hold such conservative viewpoints on social issues are so against propaganda from the religious right... I find it kinda interesting (nothing being insinuated, I just decided to share that). With that aside:




Hermit-- If you'd like to preach Christianity to us, perhaps you wouldn't find it offensive if I asked possibly the most simple question, but the most often overlooked, regarding the religion? If you wouldn't mind, do me a favor and provide the passage of John 3:16 (any Biblical version will suffice), most likely the most important tenent of the Christian religion, and from there we can discuss.

Hermit,put down the pipe man.It aint doin you any good.


....and who the fuck is Jeff?

Uhh, believe me or not, but my name is Jeff. :(

Have I doomed humanity or something?

Uhh and another serious thing, went I went to the grocery store today I bought some popcorn. No joke. And my name is Jeff... :eek

To be honest, I'm actually quite suprised that many who hold such conservative viewpoints on social issues are so against propaganda from the religious right

I just think many of us here who are on the right side of the political scale and yet go nuts when posts like show up is because we are smart enough to smell this a troll post a mile away. If someone like religion/god good for you. I choose not to believe. I don't force my belief on you so don't force you god mongering on me. That what I think people get the most pissed about.

Heh, Daidal, I don't think he's here for "discussion."

Mmm...popcorn

'Have I doomed humanity or something? '

- When you were born bro. When you were born :P

You know, I used to go to church... then I think my membership expired or something.

What a sad little man.

You know what happens when you heat popcorn in the microwave too long?

The same thing that happens when you heat anything too long...

I wonder what would happen if we stuck your head in a microwave, and bounced some of those molecules around for 20 minutes or so.....

You who who preaches intolerance, hate, and fear.

Too bad god never sends down the right Meds for these fucking freaks he pulls off the streets.

fazin really stopped when he married sarenu

This is amusing to say the least. I love those preaching religion, damnation and Hell. Those screamers that say we all sin, oh follow my way and yet they themselves can't follow their own believes and preachings. Then they go forcing bullshit and spreading stupid rumors and lies.

Examples:

Public school was pressured not to allow any Halloween costumes depicting undead, demonic beings, or anything else seen as unholy by the bible thumpers on the PTA.

The whining that Burt and Ernie from Sesame Street were a bad influence on children, promoting a gay atmosphere of two men living together.

Oh and let's not forget D&D, AD&D or any other roleplaying games.


I was asked once in the game if I was religious. Not in the way most conventional people like to claim. But I don't tolerate those that piss and moan, telling others how they should live their lives. You want to biblethump, then how about remembering that we were given a choice by the power above the path we take. That you so holy book was translated by man, from ancient text and what he couldn't read he made up to suit his own belief. Lastly, before you go preaching to others, take a good look inside yourself. When you can say you're perfect, Then you can preach to others. And hey guess what, saying your perfect, you just blew it, cause your own book states, None but God is perfect.

Quote: "fazin really stopped when he married sarenu"

so true :(

The whining that Burt and Ernie from Sesame Street were a bad influence on children, promoting a gay atmosphere of two men living together.
This always makes me laugh when I read it. :lol

i almost cried laughing.

<3 marz

The whining that Burt and Ernie from Sesame Street were a bad influence on children, promoting a gay atmosphere of two men living together.


Actually Bert and Ernie were gay. Jim Henson modeled them after a couple he knew in college. I very highly doubt they " influenced" anyones sexuality though.

I couldn't stop reading that article. That was hilarious!!

I needed a good laugh, thanks!!

Go Go Power Jeff!!

Okay, I know, two posts in a row, bad me, bad me.

But I just read this thread (http://board.ministryhelps.com/viewtopic.php?t=236&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=9980ef183a63aff788c4d64ef2ecaf16) over on that board genius boy posted.

THAT's some sad, sad, sad stuff.

Actually Bert and Ernie were gay.

The Family Guy treatment of this ruled.

The true reason EW tends to stay on top of each expansion is now revealed. Gnomish sacrifices to Satan.

hahahaha i have been away from the boards for abit but damn this is some funny shit

i didn't get sacrificed alot, but drizzen made a good sub-in for me!

Gokuu, I imagine you'd fuck up dying somehow.

i fucked up rezing your ass many times, i know that!

I never die. Coini on the other hand tends to explode spontaenously :/

Dark Dungeons - Chick Press! (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp)

...so just what is the correct religion that will get me to "the good place" as opposed to "the bad place"?

Doesn't seem to be Judaism! (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0014/0014_01.asp)
Hrm...it's not Islam (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp)
Big surprise...it doesn't seem to be pagan magic... (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5012/5012_01.asp)
Hindu? Duh (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0070/0070_01.asp)
Doesn't seem like Buddhism is right... (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0016/0016_01.asp)
Ok...so not if you're Catholic... (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp)
Toss your issue of Watchtower...Jehovah's Witness is not where it's at... (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0026/0026_01.asp)
Southpark was wrong... (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0061/0061_01.asp)

Heh...I love these things...they're a riot. Look for them in almost any public place. People buy them by the bundle and leave them for folks to find and read. The website has some more good ones.

Yeah, fuck those damn dirty Christians! Hang 'em! Death to the Christians!

Hey there Mr. Bibleman merry fucking Christmas. Do us all a favor and die of gonorrhea.

In the words of Jim Norton

"Slip in a puddle of aids"

I really hate bible shit. It is so forceful and they make you feel guilty and unwanted and make you feel like a sinner when really you have done nothing wrong. And God didn't write the bible, so I don't see why Godmongers go by the bible. Greedy delusional 'Men' wrote the bible. I dont see the fuckin feminists complainin about it ever either. Just greedy men that rule the world, so go fuck yourself Christian, cuz people like you make people like myself feel unwanted in a world of hate, hate added by the faithful and devout usually.

I'll set aside my suicide and instead annoy the hell out of you for another year and more.

Let's round us up some Christians and lynch 'em! Burn 'em! They slept with my daughter and defiled her! Let's get us a good ol' fashion cross burnin! BURN THE CROSS! BURN THE CHRISTIANS! WOoohaaa!

Death to them all! We will purge the land of filthy Christians! We will destroy the vile hatemongers by hatemongering them even more then they can manage! We will force our "Don't force your view upon us" view upon them! We will rise up and demand that they ignore one of the most sacred tenants of their religion because we are open minded! And if you are a Christian you can't possibly be open minded because all Christians are closed minded!

MUDER DEATH KILL!

DESTROY THE VILE INFIDELS! There is only one true path, and that is any path but the Christian path! For they my dear non-Christian friends, are the true evil! With their desire to help the poor, sick and needy, the cloth the wretched and to show unconditional love for their fellow human beings. Yes they my friends are evil and rotten to the core! We must destroy them all!

/e grabs his pitchfork and torch.

TO TEH CASTLE!!!!

i got invited to a church about 5 years ago i went with a few friend we sat in middle when they start singing we start laughing not sure why ( we were young back then ) then we satrted cursing at each other , some old lady told us to leave and said its best not to attend church at all .
since then i feel bad going to a church .

HAIL CESAR ZHEN!

Meh...I find the Chick Press stuff amusing for all the wrong reasons. They are so over the top it's hilarious. The Dark Dungeons one is great, tho...if you don't read any of them, please read that one and say if playing D&D was *EVER* like that =). I don't remember being invited to join a pagan religion for the REAL POWER (tm)...my groups must have just sucked =(.

You know, I used to go to church... then I think my membership expired or something.

At least you weren't kicked out of church.I was sent a lovely letter about a year after I stopped attending church.They said I was self-excommunicated because I had not attended in many years and had not given money to the church.I guess my anon donations meant nothing to them.

Oddly enough,just this year(it's been about 14 years since I was kicked out)I recieved a pathetic letter from the same church pleading for donations so their church wouldn't be shut down.

Religion = War

Why would i want myself or my children to be any part of that.

fazin is always at war with his inner self (zehn)

>Oddly enough,just this year(it's been about 14 years since I was kicked out)I recieved a pathetic letter from the same church pleading for donations so their church wouldn't be shut down.

Costs a lot of money to send out letters excommunicating people apparently.

maybe you got excommunicated because you werent giving enough to pay for them to excommunicate other people?

A Christian once asked to borrow my notebook because he wanted to study for his Calc exam when he'd been sick all week. He then maliciously and with intent to wound forgot to say "thankyou." That evil, vile person! I wish all Christians would rot in their 'Hell' for crimes like this.

5 years later he actually had the nerve to stop me in Wal-Mart and ask me how I was doing! Like I wanted to talk to that asshole.

I wish they would all just die! I hate Christians.

Btw, I hope you all realize you sound exactly like the bigots and racists you condemn. Replace "Christian" with your favorite minority and viola, you're on the recieving end of a ban!

You're condemning all of Christianity based on your own unique small experiences. Maybe these are just...*Gasp*...bad people? I mean honestly, I don't think all cashiers are jackasses just because the one a few weeks ago gave me wrong change.

But hey, that's just me and my perceptions. But the impression I'm getting here is that we should hang all the black people becuase when I was 13 one offered me crack when I was visiting Madison.

If God can do anything and knows all then he is ultimately responsible for anything that happens. He knew the consequences of everything he did in the past. He knows that when there's a severely upset person that person's actions are highly influenced by the kind of people and events that person encounters. In addition, God influenced that person to be upset in the first place. Therefore God is at least partially responsible for all sin and pain. Remember God is infallible, while we are all fallible and flawed. God is perfect. Therefore he makes no mistakes. God is a sadistic scumbag if he exists. I don't think he does though.

God can do anything. Therefore he can make us all happy and fulfilled without sacrificing ANYTHING, including our free will. He chooses not to. Remember that.

Sullon Zek represent yo!

This poor guy was just trying to save your soul.And you heathens mock him and his intentions /shame

God can do anything. Therefore he can make us all happy and fulfilled without sacrificing ANYTHING, including our free will. He chooses not to. Remember that.

Oh look.. someone who never read "A Brave New World"
/point
/laugh

Happiness, Love, Serenity, Joy, Peace, whatever is meaningless without its opposite.
I suppose a tree or a fern is perfectly happy.

Btw, I hope you all realize you sound exactly like the bigots and racists you condemn. Replace "Christian" with your favorite minority and viola, you're on the recieving end of a ban!Screw the Mon Calamari! (Except when served with cocktail sauce.)

>This poor guy was just trying to save your soul.And you heathens mock him and his intentions /shame

Aren't we supposed to crucify him or something?

Religion = War

No hun...I actually think it's churches and most the ppl who attend them that equals war. Religion can be a good thing for many ppl if they don't push it off onto everyone else.

Either way...I'm not a huge fan of churches at all and I don't really care either way if someone believes in god....just don't want them trying to influence me and preach to me about their ways cuz I've heard it many times before and it's never any different.

Holy Smokes....I love the football analogy. You just need to read a bit farther: to Revelations. God is a poor loser. When his team is down 56 to 0, he just pulls out the old nuke and wipes the opposition away. Don't worry, you probably won't see any of us there anyway...we play a polytheistic game.

Ahh, religion, a somewhat good idea gone horribly wrong.

This post coming from an Atheist, let me start off my rant by saying that I believe religion is a good thing, actually, not so much the actual religion, but the concept of faith. Having faith can help many people with difficult times. However, many people, such as myself, consider faith pointless, at least when it comes to myself.

Everyone has different beliefs. If there really is a God, and we were created in God's image, then we were meant to think independantly, free from forced beliefs. My attitude on life is to just simply try to be a good person. I'm not going to pray, I'm not going to go to church, I'm not going to take my future children to church. If I can live a good successful life without being selfish I will be happy with myself. When I die, if God and Heaven does exist, and the way I lived my life isn't good enough for God, then I'll gladly burn in Hell for having the free and independant mind He created.

I feel I should share my belief on what happens when someone dies though. First off, it's a proven fact that life itself exists as a form of energy, and it's also fact that energy can't be destroyed. When a person dies, the energy that existed in life does not simply vanish. I believe if there's anything close to a spirit or soul, that energy is it. Now, this energy could be like an unconcious state of being... When we die, it could simply be an endless dream, and you could dream that you are in Heaven, then again, you could be a speck of static electricity stuck to some fat guy's sock, unable to think, comprehend, feel, or even know you exist as that, damned to spend eternity in a black void incapable of anything.

Anyways, the point of all this is to simply say that people have their own beliefs, and personally I would rather die than force my beliefs on another person. It is my opinion that you trying to convert or convince people to your cause is in itself, a sin. It shows you have no respect for people or individuality (you communist bastard [to spice things up]).

I could go on and on about this, but I wont. I'd rather go smoke a joint with JC and the 13th Apostle while watching Muse do a pole dance. Go buy Dogma, Ben Affleck is one sexy man, in a completely heterosexual way.

I gave you something to think about, but more than likely you will blow it off because most people who would do this sort of thing are too blind and incompetant to look at things from other peoples point of views. Try it sometime, if you want to be wise and have people listen to your advise, look at things through their eyes, and understand why they are the way they are before forcing your way on them, because more than likely, they are already doing what works best for them. That is all.

I'll gladly burn in Hell

hell doesnt sound like a place where one would be "glad"

the energy that existed in life does not simply vanish

the energy is converted into heat energy, which is eventually lost from the body, and as no more energy intake is occuring, no more energy is being put out, so all the energy is being transferred to other things. If you think energy is our soul, that would mean that we all go back to the "flow of energy" and return to "mother earth" being transformed into all sorts of different energy. This also brings up the fact that the energy we are using once was human.

That brings up the question "What is life?" I have no fucking idea sorry ~ but i don't think its energy.

Sounds a bit like the Gaia theory, that's one I always thought was interesting.

Look.. Nobody cares if you're preeching for or against religion. You guys complain about religious nuts preeching their shit, well I'm getting tired of you anti-religious nuts preeching your shit.

I think nobody should try to force their beliefs on anyone else, but at least the religious folks have a "reason". They believe they're saving the non-religious from burning in hell forever. You guys against religion are just negative people who for some reason or another don't believe in God.

It's because a friend of a friend heard from a friend that some guy who used to be a friend of a guy who was dating this chick once got kicked out of a church for screaming out, "Fuck you all you scat eating mother fuckers."

I mean honestly, where's their sense of humor? Scat eating mother fuckers! That's hilarity! Hahaha!

Just a thought, but....

Spekter, do you realize how so very much your twisted logic sounds exactly like the sly lies of the fallen one. It is ever fallen man's desire to blame God for his failures and imperfections that admit he/she has simply chosen to follow Satan.
We sow what we reap. Do not blame it on the one who loved us enough to give a life to free us from death.

ROFLMAO!!

All the posts here and Olm picks on me. Why do I smell troll or worse? You got a personal problem then take it there.

I'm not highly or anti religious. I don't push my religious beliefs not stand for another pushing their's on me. Simple enough. I happen to stand strong on personal freedoms and rights.

So, take whatever barbs you have over obviously other matters with me and save them for one who truly cares. I have better things to do then deal anymore with a troll.

>You guys against religion are just negative people who for some reason or another don't believe in God.

Or you sure they are really against religion and not just those who push it?

I think the thing about this post is that the Atheists among us are doing exactly what the first poster did wrong: we are blaming someone who has never been proven to exist, and whose name is so many different things and meanings it's hard to tell who it is. The Christian dogooder is trying to make his own fellow human feel less of a person than himself because we don't believe in the same thing. I don't believe in any of it so I'm not forcing my non-religious way on anyone because I have no way. I live my life as an honest, caring, non-druggy/alcy person ;)

I am a very mutch into my religion and take it very seriously but im not a thumper and dont expect anyone to take me seriously please click the link to see what i belive

www.littlemikey.com/properenglish.htm (http://www.littlemikey.com/properenglish.htm)

Look.. Nobody cares if you're preeching for or against religion. You guys complain about religious nuts preeching their shit, well I'm getting tired of you anti-religious nuts preeching your shit.
Fair enough, but perhaps many people don't see it as preaching, but instead as merely a discussion? If this were on any other topic, it wouldn't be contested, but it seems people arguing either way for or against religion are always chastised, and simply told to let people "believe what they believe". This is of course understandable, but by doing this, you are eliminating any chance for any intellectual advancement in their understand of the religion, and cheaping the faith by decreeing that discussing it is something that shouldn't be done, but that their faith should be simply believed.

Additionally, I'd like to add that "faith", as a word, sucks. "Faith" implies not being able to tell something thats true, but believing it firmly none the less, which really reduces religion's validity. Nobody is one hundred percent sure in their faith, anybody who was would be completely ignorant to claim with such certainty. But the fact that religions are established and ingrained into our mindsets allows people to do so without being questioned. Suppose a situation arose where a person proclaimed on this board that we were being controlled by dolphins, and they were indeed going to bring about the destruction of the world and re-establish a kingdom here with all who tore away from the darkness of land-living and became one with the sea. Of course, there would be an uproar of laughter because it seems absurd, but all the inherent aspects of that faith are just as potentially tenable as any (speaking of Christianity here, thats what my main focus is on, as I haven't had much chance to study other religions yet) sect of Christianity. It has all the same physical proofs available (Simply that there are records besides Biblical scriptures saying that there was indeed a traveling rabbi named Jesus during the time we believe him to have lived, and that there is indeed empirical proof of Dolphins), and indeed all the same "faith" oriented proofs, where the true nature of whether or not Christ rose to save us and whether or not Dolphins are controlling us (see, even now you are thinking how absurd it sounds because its such a new, abstract idea) rests in a "belief", or better put, a hope.



I think nobody should try to force their beliefs on anyone else, but at least the religious folks have a "reason". They believe they're saving the non-religious from burning in hell forever.
And perhaps the agnostics or atheists are arguing that theres no way to know/there is no god because they believe that spending one's time partaking in this opiate is simply wasteful, especially when one tries to guilt trip others into this deceptive sanctuary?



You guys against religion are just negative people who for some reason or another don't believe in God.
Ahhhh, the grumpy, scrooge-like description of the athetist or agnostic. Indeed, it is fairly rare to find people without faith who subscribe themselves to agnosticism or athetism instead of still checking that box that says "Christian" and half hazardly claiming to have faith, and as such it probably seems kinda remote, and your experience with non-believers is probably so limited that you actually believe somebody can only have morally alligned actions if they subscribe to a faith's ever-changing tenents.

You say "for some reason or another don't believe in God", and this is the very odd paradigm that our society seems to share. What if I were to reverse this statement, and say that all you believers for some reason or another do believe in God. Could you explain why? No, it simply comes down to faith, and our society accepts this because we have made it a pattern to interject God into things in whatever way it fits.
This has happened many times, where the Church switches the way they believe, and followers are left in the middle ground. For example, with the case of evolution, the Church is now finding ways that evolution is part of God’s process. While this is all well and good, there are some complications. Many of the new followers believe the whole “7 Days” notion of creation was just a story designed to tell that God created everything, whereas before they would have said that it was indeed made in 7 days. However, with more scientific evidence, they realize that they would look ignorant for claiming such views, and thus the doctrine is adopted so that it makes this compromise, that it really only “tells us the truth about God’s nature, but of course it didn’t actually happen.” This mindset of backing away from everything that the religion is not once it becomes obvious that it can’t be that is a very dubious route for a religion to take. It seems a quite apparent cop out, that the religion tries to maintain the ideas of its original doctrine, but adapts what it actually believes to be the case according to the day’s societal and scientific notions. Religion needs Science these days to maintain its ability to sound rational, and many times this argument is made about whether or not they get along. Religion is now claiming that they do get along, as with all Religon's adaptions they fit together. The truth is, Religion, you may get along with Science, but Science couldn't care less about you.





Anyways, enough on the random ramblings that really are really vague and not very important, and onto more quotes, yay!

Kaiine:
When I die, if God and Heaven does exist, and the way I lived my life isn't good enough for God, then I'll gladly burn in Hell for having the free and independant mind He created.
I agree with this quote 100%. However, I find it odd that you're an atheist and you are giving that potential option. Are you indeed an atheist, or are you actually simply agnostic, like myself?



Do not blame it on the one who loved us enough to give a life to free us from death.
Excellent, and we come to the core of Christianity. I just finished my final theology class at my school, in which we write a synthesis paper that nails every aspect of our faith and lives together. I'm going to use an excerpt from there because I"m too damn lazy to type it out right now, but its basically the thing that took me from my previous state of Christianity-with-doubts into hardcore agnosticism.



-------------------
My next thought on Christianity is the one that specifically took me from a struggling Christian to the stage of full agnosticism. While reading Slavoj Zizek’s book “The Fragile Absolute”, in which he breaks down the stereotypical idea of the separation between a Marxist state and religion, I discovered the most important of all questions regarding Christianity: “Why?” It’s simple, isn’t it? Three letters, even. However, sometimes it’s the simplest of things in life that we don’t pay attention to, and a huge flaw in the logical progression of the tenets of Christian faith.

Since my early childhood, John 3:16 is a verse I’ve had memorized. In fact, I’d wager that that vast majority of Christians, if they have one verse from the New Testament memorized, know this one. It is a basic declaration of the beliefs of followers of Christianity, and is quoted throughout the world. “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.” This sacrificial gesture by God, giving up the only Son he had, is without a doubt one of the most impressive acts imaginable, if not the most impressive.

However, I had never contemplated until recently why an omniscient and omnipotent God would do such a thing as sacrifice his son. If we take the Christian doctrine that God had to do this for his son, then we must ask why? For what greater power is God forced to sacrifice his only son to save us? For as we are taught that he had to do that, there must be a force that is greater than God, something that has an authority to command him to do that instead of simply having Jesus live with us or something of the like. This doctrine of Christianity proposes two possible solutions.

The first solution is this: God truly is omnipotent. There is no force greater than he is, and as such, he was free to do what he wished to redeem us. However, we know from Church teaching that he sacrificed Jesus to save us, but his omnipotence would clearly denote that he could have saved us with a snap of his fingers. Therefore, God did what he did not because he had to, but because he wanted to. His actions were only sacrificial because he made them such. He is a god that is playing absurd and perverse games with his creation, whereby he makes suffering and sin, and thus creates a dramatic sacrifice of his son in order to ransom us from his creations to secure our endless gratitude and praise in a selfish, perverted fashion.

The other potential option is this: God is not actually omnipotent. There is some force greater than him which commanded the actual sacrifice on the cross in order to redeem our sins, a sacrifice he was forced to make by this greater deity as no other option for our salvation was available. Zizek compares him to a Greek tragic hero, who’s deeds (our creation) bring about unwanted results and tragic consequences (suffering and sin), and the only way to alleviate such problems is to make a sacrifice of that which is the most important to him (his son, Jesus) to balance what he has done wrong and atone to this higher power in the way it commands. In this way, God truly did sacrifice to save us, but because there is some higher deity that is controlling his actions, he cannot by definition be God, and thus all of Christianity really has no point if it isn’t worshiping the real God. The worship of it, then, would revert into a form of Paganism, worshipping an Aeolus of the gods, if you will, while Neptune sits in the sea and commands such a crucifixion for atonement from the lesser Aeolus for his releasing of the winds(our sins).

With such a major tenet of Christianity, in fact, I’d hazard to even declare the major tenet of Christianity suddenly completely losing its ability to argue for Christianity, the religion reverts from a divine faith that saves, to the model of a human that lived a noble life that is deserving of the attempts to emulate it, but not worship it.
-------------------



Anyways, take that for what you will, thats a very small but important part of my current beliefs. I have 20 pages more, and I also broke down the 3 primary reasons I believe people have faith, which is exciting. Yay. Now if only Hermit were here to discuss still, I'd be happy. Alas.

Ya know what "Faith" is?

Well.. the thing I can most closely associate it with?
Ever feel like someone was staring at you, and you turn around and someone is?

Thats the feeling of faith.. its sense.. If you want to attack christian mythos.. thats cool, whatever. Its kinda like not being able to see the forest because all the trees in your way.
Mythos and ritual and tradition are just methods to express this "sense", they differ from person to person from region to region, from era to era. But the feeling itself is universal. Well.. not universal in that all people feel it.. but the twinge of faith itself is in those who feel it.

We can have a discussion about how christian tradition developed. But that never comes to questions of Faith. A arguement against faith can never focus on 1 religion, it has to address them all.
In that faith is a personal expression, its presentation is similar to styles of Painting. Modern, Cubist, Classical, Surreal... It all comes from the same core place.. expression.

Not everyone feels this "sense".. not everyone is a painter.

Mohammad said he was just a man.. not an angel.. he said that all prophets are equal in message.. they must be all listened to.. Jesus, Moses, himself...
There are others.. include Buddah? Include Gandhi? MLK?..

We all have to walk our paths.. figure out life for ourselves... is faith a part of this for you? Either way.. You have your shit to figure out.. I have mine..

The thing above my post about the Trees in the way of the forest and still having faith the forest is there...

Well, you can get an aerial shot of the forest and also go through the whole forest to see its depth.

Can't do that with something that actually takes faith to believe in because it is unproven and unseen

Thats the feeling of faith.. its sense.. If you want to attack christian mythos.. thats cool, whatever.
I know exactly what faith is, I was Christian for 18 years as well. What I was saying (and it was really just a random tangent that has no real purpose) is that I think the idea of using the word "faith" in its present form is skewed and bad for religion. I think you're interpreting what I"m saying as saying that somebody who has "faith", or "hope" as I think is more applicable, is bad-- I'm not saying that at all. I'm just randomly commenting on the notion of the word "faith" and what it inherently implies about the person's beliefs and how I think that deconstructs the validity of their beliefs if they have "faith" as opposed to "hope".

Let me know if I'm being unclear, as late-night typing prevents me from being as articulate as I normally would be. It's all really a matter of semantics I just went off on a tangent about.



A arguement against faith can never focus on 1 religion, it has to address them all.
The argument is intended against all religions where one claims a definite faith, but in my example, for purposes of comparison in a way that'd be accurate for the explanation, I only chose to use Christianity. The notion still applies to any religion though, and if you read it pretending that all religions are intended in the way I wrote it, its just as legit.



Its kinda like not being able to see the forest because all the trees in your way.
This particular section was a discrepancy with the trees, but the rest of the post was very much directed at the forest.

Question...

Would i be going to hell, if i played a paladin? Which i did... now im on to FFXI... lmao...

Question

do i go to hell if i beat the shit of a begger standing on a corner street and holding a sign that reads " i hate religion"?

In the name "Religion" Man has killed more men, women and children than any diease in the worlds history.

Oh Shut the fuck up..

"In the Name of Religion".. Ya ever hear of a pretext dumbass? Crusades werent about REligion, Inquisition wasnt about Religion..

Besides.. Ill put the Non Religous Murders of Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Saddam Hussien, ect ect against any of those..

Thats true for the most part. Study history and you will find almost all wars are all about power, greed, the desire to have more. A very few in ancient times were despirate struggles caused by natural dissaters driving whole peoples out of their lands and causing them to invade other lands.

The classic example used by many to point fingers at religion as causing war were the campaigns waged by the Roman Catholic Church. Read up on the history of the popes and you will find that most of these men were anything but religious. And that people were declared enemies of the state or church purely to enable the dedicant rulers to seize their property.

((Why I am against the Homeland defense, er 'Patriot Act"))

Absolute power corrupts absolutely....

There is only one religion that actually seems to endorse war, but I do not feel like going into that right now. There are a lot of good people that belive in it and are peaceful folk.

-------------

Spekter, you are right, I am a troll, (Honest,...Large Marge is one....:P), and I appoligize... That posting really should have been for A ThousandYoung, not you. Though I dissagreed with what you said, my posting was an inappropriate reply for yours. Not sure why I thought it was you instead of A ThousandYoung...must have been more tired than I thought.

----------------

Daidalthe the Minstrel
Interesting. I shall read more of your post again later, probably not until wednesday though, and send you my email address, or even my home one if you are willing to send me a copy of your paper. I find it interesting that theology for somereason seems to create as many athiests and agnostics as the Roman Catholic religion does. ((no offense intended, it just seems to me that way from all the people I have talked with)).

----------------

To the Hermit

You are not Bibleman.
The people playing EQ are not for the most part those of the street.
Popcorn? Perhaps you should have stuck with just 'flim-flam'.
Perhaps you should also read 'Run Baby Run'.

Excessive cussing is a sign of Demonic oppression.
Especially if it is uncontrollable, not just a bad habbit.
Your intentions are good, but the results are bad....undoubtedly and unintentionally causing the real 'Bibleman' a lot of hassle.

The not denying the oxen the right to feed off of the grain he crushed is both a humanatarian law given by him for the animals, but a message about the way all laborers should be treated.
It has absolutely nothing to do with free speach.

Seek the word of God from the Bible, but be carefull, for you are opperating under a delusion. You need to seek the truth, and beware of deceiving spirits.
Leave 'Jeff' alone.
In the name and by the Blood of Jesus Christ and his spirit I place that last stricture upon you.
Walk in peace, and be blessed brother, your road is not an easy one.

Well this turned into something amusing. Hate to repeat quoted quotes, but Daidal missed a couple things in citing them:

I think nobody should try to force their beliefs on anyone else, but at least the religious folks have a "reason". They believe they're saving the non-religious from burning in hell forever.
Quite a few have died for this reason, this notion of "saving," but that's a minor point. Do atheists/agnostics have their reasons, too? Certainly, particularly in areas where religion is impinging on science. Also in cases where religious belief can have fatal consequences, such as when parents favor prayer in place of medical treatment for an ill child.

You guys against religion are just negative people who for some reason or another don't believe in God.
This canard, that atheists/agnostics are sad, unhappy god-hating people, often crops up in messageboard debates. I assure you, plenty of atheists are quite positive, happy folks who don't believe in god for some reasons, and others, and still others (there are more than enough reasons not to believe, collect all 'n'!). Characterizing people with whom you disagree in such a negative fashion only reduces any thrust your argument might have and makes you look far worse than those you portray.

Do not blame it on the one who loved us enough to give a life to free us from death.-OlmEmbar

However, I had never contemplated until recently why an omniscient and omnipotent God would do such a thing as sacrifice his son.-Daidal
What you both miss is that there was no such sacrifice. Is Jesus dead, according to Christian theology? No, he is of one body with the Christian god (the "Father"); only a temporary material form was lost. And in Christian belief, our material forms don't amount to much. I would be far, far more impressed with Christian belief if Jesus was spending an eternity in Hell actually suffering for sins, instead of hanging out in Heaven with dad.

One might counter that the physical suffering of the passion was the sacrifice, but given that this is the almighty "son of god" we're speaking of, I don't find that argument persuasive. According to Christian theology, Jesus is doing just fine now.

"In the Name of Religion".. Ya ever hear of a pretext dumbass? Crusades werent about REligion, Inquisition wasnt about Religion..
Not to the leaders it wasn't, perhaps (kinda hard to say in all cases), but to the followers, the men-at-arms and peasant levies, holy wars were (and are) very much a religious experience. Conversely, I don't think anyone went to war crying out, "For atheism!"

Excessive cussing is a sign of Demonic oppression.
Well shit.

Seek the word of God from the Bible, but be carefull, for you are opperating under a delusion. You need to seek the truth, and beware of deceiving spirits.
The greatest thing about statements such as this is that you can turn it around on the speaker without recourse. Olm, you are operating under a delusion. You need to seek the truth and beware deceiving spirits. Don't agree? Well of course not! You're being deceived by spirits!

FUCK RELIGION!
FUCK IT RIGHT IN THE EAR!

(Mandari, that statement was for the 'Hermit'.)

And for the ones that spew mindless profanity? /ignore.

Humm, no edit button.

Just a thought to add in regards to what Mandari has said, or perhaps asked, The spiritual connection that Jesus had with YHVH was severed on the cross, causing him to cry out 'My God, why have you forsaken me?" He knew it would happen, but it still hurt....
Yes, he did actually experience death, for approximately three days, before he was resurrected, and he walked the earth for a bit after that, before being taken up.
He has a job to do and he is doing it, you can read the scripture to find out, or you can ignore it or even *expletive deleted* it as some in the thread so crudely keep saying.

One other thing...just to add something perhaps off topic, but to some something you might want to check on, and to others, something else to flame.
Check it out. The son of God has a name in the old testament besides his titles. He is known as the Archangel Michael, the prince, Redeemer, and deliver, of Israel.

The Inquisition is a bad example as a "holy war" causing a fuckton of deaths for the simple reason that ~maybe~ 6,000 people dies to it durint it's entire 500 year run.

Murders/deaths/executions as by the bible

Exodus 32: 3,000 Israelites killed by Moses for worshipping the golden calf.
Numbers 31: After killing all men, boys and married women among the Midianites, 32,000 virgins remain as booty for the Israelites. (If unmarried girls are a quarter of the population, then 96,000 people were killed.)
Joshua:
Joshua 8: 12,000 men and women, all the people of Ai, killed.
Joshua 10: Joshua completely destroys Gibeon ("larger than Ai"), Makeddah, Libnah, Lachish, Eglon, Hebron, Debir. "He left no survivors."
Joshua 11: Hazor destroyed. [Paul Johnson, A History of the Jews (1987), estimates the population of Hazor at ?> 50,000]
TOTAL: if Ai is average, 12,000 x 9 = 108,000 killed.
Judges 1: 10,000 Canaanites k. at Battle of Bezek. Jerusalem and Zephath destroyed.
Judges 3: ca. 10,000 Moabites k. at Jordan River.
Judges 8: 120,000 Midianite soldiers k. by Gideon
Judges 20: Benjamin attacked by other tribes. 25,000 killed.
1 Samuel 4: 4,000 Isrealites killed at 1st Battle of Ebenezer/Aphek. 30,000 Isr. k. at 2nd battle.
David:
2 Samuel 8: 22,000 Arameans of Damascus and 18,000 Edomites killed in 2 battles.
2 Samuel 10: 40,000 Aramean footsoldiers and 7,000 charioteers killed at Helam.
2 Samuel 18: 20,000 Israelites under Absalom killed at Ephraim.
1 Kings 20: 100,000 Arameans killed by Israelites at Battle of Aphek. Another 27,000 killed by collapsing wall.
2 Chron 13: Judah beat Israel and inflicted 500,000 casualties.
2 Chron 28: Amaziah, king of Judah, k. 10,000 from Seir in battle and executed 10,000 POWs. Discharged Judean soldiers pillaged and killed 3,000.
2 Chron 28: Pekah, king of Israel, slew 120,000 Judeans

TOTAL: That comes to about 1,283,000 mass killings specifically enumerated in the Bible.

The death count (mostly dead Christians) during the crusades...roughly 9 million.

That brings us up to nearly 10.8 million deaths perpetrated by Christians.

By comparison, Aborition which is an act condemned by the Church and in no way a 'holy kill," which I would imagine is about as 'okay' to the atheist who doesn't believe in life at conception as killing in the name of God is to a zealot from over 500 years ago...

35+ million.


Edit: Clarified my closing statement.

Way to go, you count all the old testament killings and lump em in with christians... only a handful of folks believed in christ before the guy was born. The followers of christ, known as christians didn't happen until after he was born. Kind of hard to call thier grandparents grandparent, grandparent, parent that didn't believe in christ a christian.

Also not all wars and deaths recorded in the bible are wholely kill them because they are immoral or what not but acts of war or defense, they are a record of history for a large part. To lump it into the crusdades is just plain wrong.

exclude the words lump with the crusades and put in, lump with everything and christians, had the crusades on the mind sorry.

Liper, I'm looking for the highest scholastic numbers of deaths that were done in the name of the Christian God. The fact remains the same that whether you call them Jews, Christians or Catholics, they all believed in basically the same God and they killed or were killed "in the name of God."

Claims like, "Religion has caused more deaths then anything else ever" are so full of shit it's not funny.

is this bullshit sposed to be in real life issues? Religion is for morons hoping for something (mabe 70 virgins, wait thats Islamic) that cannot be proven based on imperical evidence. The list of killings is about the only thing logical. What it says to me is "be like us, believe in our bullshit, or die"

Fuck religion, fuck it right in the ear.!!!
Drop your cash in the offering and pad the pedder-ass priests pockets.

Dex, go back to whining about how expensive PoP spells are to explain why you're the only 65 druid in the fucking game who doesn't have 9's.

Were you an alter boy?

The Problem:

The origin of torture and execution in the name of religion is the certainty that your religion is true, and therefore any other religion must be false. This being so, you must regard people who profess a different religion from your own as heretics, and as inevitably damned (as Saint Augustine did). It is your religious duty to persecute them; and because their crime is against God, no cruelty is too great to use toward them. Many people have died not because they have done harm, but because their crime was Heresy. As people were tortured by the "church" the chant would be "Ad majorem Dei gloriam" meaning "To the greater glory of God". Under Scottish law, torture by the church toward heretics was legal.
An inscription next to a stone near Forres, in Moray reads "From Clust Hill heretics were rolled in stout barrels through which knives were driven. When the barrel stopped they were burned with their mangled contents". After this they would return to the church for a celebration supper in the name of God.

So I'll stay an atheist thanks, and I hope humanity does not unravel, and cults (religious sects) do not escalate to the point that I would need to be tortured for being a heretic. Thanks for trying to save me but if everyone just looked after saving themselves and their kin, conflict may diminish.

The spiritual connection that Jesus had with YHVH was severed on the cross, causing him to cry out 'My God, why have you forsaken me?" He knew it would happen, but it still hurt....
I've heard this theory propounded before, though never seen any scriptural evidence for it. Sounds awfully ad hoc to me. The explanation also implies some cruelty on the god's part, inflicting unnecessary suffering in this manner. But if the connection is severed between the human Jesus and "the Son," just who experiences death? Which of them rises? If they both rise, then was the connection really severed? It seems the above "explanation" only produces more questions.

Yes, he did actually experience death, for approximately three days, before he was resurrected, and he walked the earth for a bit after that, before being taken up.
So the story goes, but there is nothing sacrificial in this. He "did his job" for the omnipotent deity and now enjoys eternal paradise (and is an employee of same, in some way).

Liper, I'm looking for the highest scholastic numbers of deaths that were done in the name of the Christian God.
Scholars question a lot of the numbers seen in the Bible, as they appear to be just too large for the times and for the archaeological evidence. 2.5-3 million people wander an area the size of West Virginia post-Exodus and leave no trace? Questionable. Herodotus made some curious additions to his histories; it's probably that those who wrote some books of the Old Testament (OT) did the same.

Atheists aren't uniform in their views on abortion, btw. However, given the OT god's treatment of infants and pregnant women in some cases (e.g., Amalekites) and the usual apologetic answers to this conundrum (e.g., the children were born to wicked people, so death was better), I find a subtle inconsistency in how religious anti-abortionists perceive this issue.

What you both miss is that there was no such sacrifice. Is Jesus dead, according to Christian theology? No, he is of one body with the Christian god (the "Father&quot;) ; only a temporary material form was lost. And in Christian belief, our material forms don't amount to much. I would be far, far more impressed with Christian belief if Jesus was spending an eternity in Hell actually suffering for sins, instead of hanging out in Heaven with dad.
According to Christian theology, and more specifically Catholic doctrine, Jesus fully and completely died, a death that was freely accepted and fully necessary for the redemption of our sins. He descended into hell, or a seperation from his Father, and was risen 3 days later. There are many different similar views and names, whether its a redemption for our sins, a ransom for our sins, or simply a sacrifice to establish heaven for his fallen followers. Regardless of what it is, Jesus, according to Christian theology, died on the cross, and through this, he "amorized" (according to Teilhard de Chardin) the entire functioning of the universe. Chardin also believed that (I'm quoting from Anthony Gilles' "The People of Hope", which has a big section on Chardin and his recent theology) by his death and ressurection, Jesus became the agent by which all creation began its transformation into a high species-- a spiritualized, "divinized" species (or as Chardin called it, "mankind"). However, regardless of who says it, Christian doctrine says that Christ is indeed alive today, but he did 100%, completely and fully, die. Regardless, however, supposing Christ hadn't died, he had merely physically suffered as a sacrafice, but had never fully physically died and instead simply left his physical body and suffered no consequences [Remember, however, that physically dying isn't something that is beyond him where he feels nothing because he is "actually God, just in human flesh". In his death, he felt every nail driven through his wrist, every piece of bone the scourged his back from the whip, everything that happened to him-- because he was "fully God, and fully man" according to Church (Catholic doctrine here, but it applies to the vast majority of Christian sects, if not all of them) doctrine.] there would still be a very intense amount of pain through the sacrafice. Such a sacrafice, whether or not it means he physically dies, is irrelevant to the question of whether or not God is simply playing perverse, self-gratifying games with humanity. For if God is not, why put on a grand and extravagant sacrafice, when, being the omnipotent God that he is, he could have simply snapped his fingers to save humanity? We are taught that God had to do it, that simply snapping his fingers wouldnt' have been sufficient. I'm asking, "Why?" If he is this omnipotent being, would he not be able to save us without any pre-ordained code of actions he must follow? So therefore, since he must follow some action, there is a mandatory notion that something must dictate this, because a God that is the epitome of greatness and nothing is better than him has complete control over everything. Therefore, God would not be omnipotent, and you no longer are worshipping "God", simply a lesser deity. However, if you say that God did have control, you are stuck, once again, with the question of "Why?" Why do it this way when it could have been simpler by snapping your fingers? What motive does he have, setting up an extravagant course of events in which God saves us and receives our never-ending praise for the obscene games he plays with us. So take your pick-- Is it that you're worshipping the wrong God? Or is the God you believe in simply perverse? Either way, whether or not Christ is alive at this moment according to Church doctrine (which I agree, he is), a question must be asked of the validity of the teachings of Christianity and whether or not, even though this seems so rediculously simplistic and is so easily overlooked, the religion holds water.

since you're getting nit picky about stuff, the christian god, etc. You need to lump a bunch more in then just the christian god, because that same god is referenced in other religions as well, including the muslim religion and others who believe christ was just a major prophet of god. there are so many religions that just cause christians are the major label in america doesn't make it the whole of the views of god, and to label it the christian god before such acts could be attributed to the chrisitian god is ridiculous. Call it the jewish god if you want to be right, if you want to create some soap box to spout why god sucks, call it chrisitian god and ignore the bible as a whole please.

The book of Morman. What an epic. :lol

Woah, Daidal, paragraphs please. Hard to follow your train of thought there.

First, to accept the Catholic/Christian doctrine in regard to all this, you have to accept a lot of questionable ideas that come with it. The incarnation, where Jesus is both 100% man and 100% god, for instance, suffers from numerous metaphysical difficulties. The Trinity (1+1+1=1) suffers similarly, to the point where many theologians don't bother with explanations, but simply view it as a mystery to be accepted on faith.

What does "completely and fully die" mean? In this case, there is supposedly activity taking place ("He descended into hell, or a seperation from his Father, and was risen 3 days later"), so something is going on there. The explanation given also does not seem to answer the point I raised above regarding the severing of ties between the dying Jesus and the divine god. If Jesus no longer as the divine spark in him, then who is dying, in Hell, and undergoing ressurection?

If Jesus is 100% god as well as man, and the god is omniscient, then Jesus has divine fore-knowledge and experience of the suffering one feels having undergone crucifixion. This may not lessen the pain, but we're only taking it at the apologist's word that the divine/human Jesus is feeling all this pain like a mortal would. Remember, most people lingered up to 2 days following crucifixion; the Gospels say that Jesus died after 3 hours or so.

I agree with the "Why?" regarding the whole show. I've not come across any substantive answers to the "Why" of the whole thing, mostly vague explanations regarding the supposed necessity of blood sacrifice. I find it more likely that the story evolved in this manner because blood sacrifice was common among across many ancient religions (and still exists today in various forms). And if Jesus is described as being "god's son," the scale of the sacrifice becomes great indeed, certainly inspirational enough for the members of a nascent cult of worship.

But theologically speaking, I don't see an answer that fits the question.

Religion = The crutch some people live by.

Come on people....what better way to get around taking responsibility...."Oh GOD, why did you do this to me?"

Please the reason it happened to you is because your number came up....whoopty do. Hey guess what life happens. The Omniscient/Omnipresent being we want to hang the blame on is nothing more than that...A CRUTCH!!!

Sorry rather take responsibility for myself and leave it at that.

And the whole War thing...people are greedy. End of story. We go to war because of greed. Don't believe it, look at the economics of war..

Get off the religion boat. If you believe, hey great for you. Don't force it down my throat. Take your schrew self out and stand on the corner somewhere and preach it. That way when I walk bye and you bug me just a little more than I feel comfortable I can ram my size 12 boot down your throat like you are trying to ram your religion down mine.....

So suggit super star. Keep your religion to yourself.

Friggen people wasting perfectly good server space with this BS, go post it someplace else.

Kinda funny though..

Ask an Atheist what his religion is.
he will reply.
"Oh.. Im an Atheist."
Then ask what that means.
Im willing to bet that 99.9% will answer
"It means I dont believe in God."

Interesting.. God.. with a Capital G. Not a god, Not gods, not higher power

Atheism is the absense of something. It does not exist independantly but is a reaction to overwhelming the Christian view of God.
The fact that atheism is in itself an "-ism" is a statement. Instead of saying.. "no.. I dont believe in any of that stuff", people feel compelled to use terminology suggesting that they have a code of beliefs, when in fact its the lack of one, as defined solely by the word.

Suntao.. you have no clue what you are talking about.. Religion isnt a crutch. People arent "weak" for having faith and you arent "strong" for not..

Question for you all. Are there any real theologians here? Doesn't sound like it. All views that you may have will NOT be completely accepted by anyone else. Because I believe there are no theologians, how can you intelligently discuss Theology? . . . and don't tell me you use Internet resources or you have a priest or preacher or whatever in the family that provides you with his/her version of rhetoric.

Many seem to be using "facts" that are accepted as common knowledge. The little details will get skewed over the course of this post and people will continue to upgrade their massive lists of quotes and spit at whoever begins contradicting themselves.

I believe that Jesus existed, and we all know he was a martyr. His martyrdom eventually caused a massive change in western civilization. I do not believe it was his intention to do so (im specifically referring to Catholic inquisition and modern day evangelism). I do not believe that he was divine, or had divine or supernatural ability.

As for ancient religious text (Christian bible/Koran), I believe that factual historical data can be extracted between disgusting embellishment or rhetorical "filler". I believe that the texts (especially Christian text) has been modified so many times that from sample to sample, meanings are completely different in specific examples.

What religion was and what it is today (in united states) are still similar and ultimately achieve an underlying goal that everyone seems to overlook. Religion is a form of government, it is utilized for control. The "good word" you hear every Sunday is buttery smooth and designed to woo you. Then the offering plate is passed around to keep the Shepard in place. Don't get caught up in the rhetoric people, you can extract the message of morality without going to church and listening to some looser, waste-of-a-man ramble on in a ridiculous tangent off a few sentences from the Book of Job.

I am atheist not because i don't believe in god (i do not believe in superhuman, its pointless). I am an atheist because of what western religion is, a business designed to not only create revenue but to control your mind and limit your freedom in the veil of moral teaching.

If this is shortsighted so be it. But I love my shortsightedness, its simple and seems more rational than someone babbling on and on using circular reasoning to push off some cock 'n bull about the trinity for example.

My previous nonsensical comment regarding the book of Mormon has meaning. Mormonites are a cult. A gigantic cult. You get the point I hope.

Ah but what you fail to realize is that most people who have faith and preach like this are using as the crutch.

I personally have faith and dare say I attend church on a regular basis...it doesn't mean I am going to come and try to ram it down your throat.

And I can also bet you with surety that if you were to go into your local church and poll the parish as to how/what happened to them. GOD had/has a plan for them in better than 80% of your responses.

Religion as a whole is not bad...religion as a crutch is ignorant. Trying to stuff your religion down someone elses throat is even more ignorant.

Do I believe in GOD? Let's say I believe there may be something somewhere. Do I believe it controls what happens to me? Hell no. I woke up this morning (albeit with help from an annoying alarm clock) to a lovely rainstorm. Want to know how it happened...first some dust was kicked up into the atmosphere. That in turn was attached to water vapor in the atmosphere (creating clouds).....you get the hint.

And if you don't think I know what I'm talking about...hehehe. You haven't been part of my life, you haven't seen the things I have seen. Don't think to imagine what I may or may not know. Don't think to imagine what I may or may not have studied.

I stated my position, just like the wonderful person (*cough-coug*) who started this thread. You didn't like it, fine respond. Don't go around telling me what I know and don't know.

Again, why don't you stand on the street corner and tell people what they know and don't know...hmmm, odds are it wouldn't last long.

One entry found for atheism.


Main Entry: athe·ism
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French athéisme, from athée atheist, from Greek atheos godless, from a- + theos god
Date: 1546
1 archaic : UNGODLINESS, WICKEDNESS
2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity


One entry found for ungodliness.


Main Entry: un·god·li·ness
Pronunciation: "&n-'gäd-lE-n&s also -'god-
Function: noun
Date: 1526
: the quality or state of being ungodly

One entry found for wickedness.


Main Entry: wick·ed·ness
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : the quality or state of being wicked
2 : something wicked

Main Entry: 1wick·ed
Pronunciation: 'wi-k&d
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, alteration of wicke wicked
Date: 13th century
1 : morally very bad : EVIL
2 a : FIERCE, VICIOUS <a wicked dog> b : disposed to or marked by mischief : ROGUISH <does wicked impersonations>
3 a : disgustingly unpleasant : VILE <a wicked odor> b : causing or likely to cause harm, distress, or trouble <a wicked storm>
4 : going beyond reasonable or predictable limits : of exceptional quality or degree <throws a wicked fastball>
- wick·ed·ly adverb


and on and on and on. . . Hope this helps on "what" an athiest is.

A heck of a lot of people have died because of not giving up their 'crutch'. Even now, in China and Vietnam especially. The penality can be sever when one believes in a God, and lives in a Marxest state. And Im not just talking Christian here either.

As for myself, my physical life was saved a by outright devine intervention, (not by any human agency) and I will never, ever, turn away from that which I know personally to exist.

L2 that is a very plain statement to assume every atheist will respond with God, especially if your going off of what you hear on these boards or from the few people you met, there are alot of dedicated people to their own faith that is no greater being or pressence.

for myself i usually don't get into an agrument on whats the differences between the different faiths, what is a crutch, and what caused more death, and what is the lesser of all evils in the world, everyone has their opinion, please don't generalize mine

btw... hows your BL you bastage!

Get off the religion boat. If you believe, hey great for you. Don't force it down my throat.

Last I checked, I wans't holding a gun to your head forcing you to read threads like this.

Also, there's a fundamental difference between sharing and forcing one's views on another.

Tell me to fuck off and keep to myself is forcing your view on me.

Talking about Christ is not.

Enjoy!

no but people get tired of being told what they believe in/doing is wrong, and they should follow this path... cause its the will of some all mighty being

well, to me thats forcing this shit down my throat when someone comes up and tells me i'm wrong and i'm an evil person for doing what i'm doing

Haha, I apologize for the lack of paragraphs, it was kinda hastily written and I didn't realize til it'd be posted.... I hope it was still discernable.

since you're getting nit picky about stuff, the christian god, etc. You need to lump a bunch more in then just the christian god, because that same god is referenced in other religions as well, including the muslim religion and others who believe christ was just a major prophet of god. there are so many religions that just cause christians are the major label in america doesn't make it the whole of the views of god, and to label it the christian god before such acts could be attributed to the chrisitian god is ridiculous. Call it the jewish god if you want to be right, if you want to create some soap box to spout why god sucks, call it chrisitian god and ignore the bible as a whole please.
Nit picky? I call it logical, but whatever you label it is fine by me. Anyways, the reason I'm specifically agnostic and not anything else is because I haven't determined my views on other religions besides Christianity because I haven't studied them to the intense depth that I have the Christian religion.

As far as the soap box to spout why god sucks, while I feel honored that you being unable to defend the guy who started such a daft(I love that word) thread makes you think I'm on a soapbox, I'm very curious as to how I ignored the Bible. On the contrary, everything I said has a specific backing Church doctrine and the Bible, whereas what you said... well, didn't even mention or refute anything. But whatever works.

If in some way I misinterpreted what you said, I apologize, and please don't take offense to my previous paragraph. But if not, please show me how I was in error.


In this case, there is supposedly activity taking place ("He descended into hell, or a seperation from his Father, and was risen 3 days later&quot;) , so something is going on there.
Of course something is happening, Christian tradition doesn't assume that somebody who dies and goes to heaven is still physically alive. Its no different with the idea of Jesus.


If Jesus no longer as the divine spark in him, then who is dying, in Hell, and undergoing ressurection?
I haven't made the connection as to how Jesus supposedly lost the "divine spark in him". He doesn't become less-than-Jesus upon death, if thats what you mean.


If Jesus is 100% god as well as man, and the god is omniscient, then Jesus has divine fore-knowledge and experience of the suffering one feels having undergone crucifixion. This may not lessen the pain, but we're only taking it at the apologist's word that the divine/human Jesus is feeling all this pain like a mortal would.
I know we are, I'm using the Church's own doctrine to disprove it's own religion on it's own grounds.


mostly vague explanations regarding the supposed necessity of blood sacrifice.
Exactly. What necessitated blood sacrifice for "God"? What ordained this pre-set rule? This idea refute's God's supposed omnipotence.


And if Jesus is described as being "god's son," the scale of the sacrifice becomes great indeed, certainly inspirational enough for the members of a nascent cult of worship.
Exactly.



The fact that atheism is in itself an "-ism" is a statement. Instead of saying.. "no.. I dont believe in any of that stuff", people feel compelled to use terminology suggesting that they have a code of beliefs, when in fact its the lack of one, as defined solely by the word.
As I think was covered, Atheism is indeed a belief set that there is not a god, Agnosticism would be your closest to a lack of a belief. Many people view agnosticism as people who are just too lazy to make up their mind, but its an indifference towards religion that, despite the seemingly negative connotation of the word, isn't desired, but required to the Agnostic.


Are there any real theologians here? Doesn't sound like it. All views that you may have will NOT be completely accepted by anyone else. Because I believe there are no theologians, how can you intelligently discuss Theology? . . . and don't tell me you use Internet resources or you have a priest or preacher or whatever in the family that provides you with his/her version of rhetoric.
What qualifies theologian? Does one have to publish a book for you to respect their views? I love how you try to discredit people right off the bat simply because they aren't teaching theological classes at Georgetown or Notre Dame or somewhere. Anyways, besides that I have nothing else, I just can't see myself being Atheist as to me thats just as absurd as a religious fundamentalist because you can never know, or at least not today without some sort of apocalyptic event or something.


And if you don't think I know what I'm talking about...hehehe. You haven't been part of my life, you haven't seen the things I have seen. Don't think to imagine what I may or may not know. Don't think to imagine what I may or may not have studied.
Ok. Happy? ;)


As for myself, my physical life was saved a by outright devine intervention, (not by any human agency) and I will never, ever, turn away from that which I know personally to exist.
Thats good that you believe that, but you are being deceived- It was my dolphins that saved you. Join the sea, and repent in the aqueous haven of life!! (Don't take offense to this, but actually think about it)

Interesting.. God.. with a Capital G. Not a god, Not gods, not higher power
Nah, I say god with a lowercase 'g'. I think your statistics need a little testing before you go on using them though, heh.

Atheism is the absense of something. It does not exist independantly but is a reaction to overwhelming the Christian view of God.
Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity. The notion existed prior to Christianity. Does theism exist independently or is it a reaction against something else, such as a need to explain the world around us?

The fact that atheism is in itself an "-ism" is a statement.
Well, it's a statement that we need a term to describe a lack of belief in a deity, and "atheism" made good linguistic sense.

Instead of saying.. "no.. I dont believe in any of that stuff", people feel compelled to use terminology suggesting that they have a code of beliefs, when in fact its the lack of one, as defined solely by the word.
It's really much more simple than that. People feel compelled to use a single word more descriptive than "I don't believe in any of that stuff." It's linguistic economy, the implication of subtext is a bit overstated. Also, atheism in no way suggests a code of beliefs (i.e., a worldview). That's the realm for religion and philosophy. Atheism simply indicates a lack of belief in a deity.

Because I believe there are no theologians, how can you intelligently discuss Theology?
Because I believe there are no linguists, how can you intelligently use words? And don't tell me you have a dictionary or lesson books or whatever in the family that taught you language as a child.
[Truly, one of the dumbest things I've ever read on a message board]

I haven't made the connection as to how Jesus supposedly lost the "divine spark in him". He doesn't become less-than-Jesus upon death, if thats what you mean
See Olm's statement that YVWH severs its connection to Jesus while he is on the cross. That explains my question about the dichotomy between mortal Jesus and "the Son" and who is doing what.

As for myself, my physical life was saved a by outright devine intervention, (not by any human agency) and I will never, ever, turn away from that which I know personally to exist.
But intervention by what? Clearly, you were saved by a malignant being who has warped your understanding for its own fiendish purposes. Or maybe you weren't, but you have no reliable or valid way of knowing this.

And it would be divine intervention not devine intervention.

Attack Christian tradition anyway you want, it kind of makes me laugh.

Its like looking at Picasso's "Starry Night" and saying "Pfftt, thats not how the sky looks"

Well.. thats kinda the point, no?

Starry Night was painted by Van Gogh. ;)

Attack Christian tradition anyway you want, it kind of makes me laugh.

Its like looking at Picasso's "Starry Night" and saying "Pfftt, thats not how the sky looks"

Well.. thats kinda the point, no?
So Christian tradition is supposed to have logical fallacies? Odd.



Mandari: Now I get that you were addressing Olm, my bad, lol.
The spiritual connection that Jesus had with YHVH was severed on the cross, causing him to cry out 'My God, why have you forsaken me?"
I personally have not heard this idea, that he was severed. In fact, the whole crucifixion is entirely a completion of the Last Supper, the passover feast. Traditionally there is always a psalm that is sung, and two cups that are drank from (or so I recall, this is a fairly vague memory so correct me if I'm wrong), with the initial cup having been drank at the Supper. Jesus's statement "I thirst", in which wine was pressed to his lips, served as the second, and the phrase that was uttered by him, "My God, what have you forsaken me" is derived from Psalm 22:2 of the Old Testament, thus fulfilling the Passover feast... or something of the sort. Psalm 22:2 "My God, my God, why have you abandoned me? Why so far from my call for help, from my cries of anguish?"

Thats a vague recollection I have of it, as I was always under the impression that it was not necessarily him saying that he had indeed been abandoned, but more proclaiming, as per the end of the song, in Psalm 22:32, ("The generation to come will be told of the Lord, that they may proclaim to a people yet unborn the deliverance you have brought.") that he has indeed come to save.

I could be totally off, but thats my understanding of the significance of that specific verse.

lol..
Thats what I get for posting before coffee.
And I think I got the flu to boot..
So.. can I get a pass?

:p

NO! you suck L2, never forget it!

*L2 Huggles!*

Just this once, L2, but don't let it happen again. ;)

Aye, Daidal, that's another explanation. Jesus says this in both Mark and Matthew. I'm somewhat surprised "Matthew" didn't refer back to the Psalm if this was indeed a reference, since that kind of thing is very characteristic of the author of that gospel. However, it does seem more plausible to me than the "severance" theory.

Here's a little something I've found interesting about the Gospels since it was pointed out to me. It's a literary technique called "reversal of expectation" that begins in Mark and continues at least into the synoptics. It's found in the parables, but more importantly it permeates the gospel story itself.

To quote Richard Carrier:
James and John, who ask to sit at the right and left of Jesus in his glory, are replaced by the two thieves at Jesus' crucifixion; Simon Peter, Jesus's right-hand man who was told he had to "deny himself and take up his cross and follow" (8:34), is replaced by Simon of Cyrene when it comes time to truly bear the cross; Jesus is anointed for burial before he dies; and when the women go to anoint him after his death, their expectations are reversed in finding his body missing. Later Gospels added even more of these reversals: for instance in Matthew Jesus' father, Joseph, is replaced by Joseph of Arimathea when the duty of burial arose—a duty that should have been fulfilled by the father; likewise, contrary to expectation, the Mary who laments his death and visits his tomb is not Mary his mother, but a prostitute; and while the Jews attack Jesus for healing and doing good on the Sabbath, they in turn hold an illegal meeting, set an illegal guard, and plot evil on the Sabbath, and then break the ninth commandment the next day. This theme occurs far too often to have been in every case historical, and its didactic meaning is made clear in the very parables of reversal told by Jesus himself, as well as, for instance, his teachings about family, or hypocrisy, and so on.

Taken from - www.census.gov/prod/www/s...ct-02.html (http://www.census.gov/prod/www/statistical-abstract-02.html)

In the year 2000 the United States population consisted of the following:

61% Protestant
28% Catholic
2% Jewish
1% Orthodox
1% Mormon
5% Other Specific
8% None

92% of the U.S. population believe in a religion

Like it or not the people going to church are the ones that are running this country.

My opinion is with over 250,000,000 people believing in some type of higher power (in this country alone) who am I to say there isn't one?

My beliefes are closest to buddhism as I believe in a middle way. Too much or too little will get you in trouble every time. I do go to a protestant church with my wife and I find thier teaching very helpful in my life and daily affairs. (even though I can be a hothead)


If you want to read something very interesting (Way too long for me to read it) I found this article that some people might find interesting. ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ104.HTM (http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ104.HTM)

My opinion is with over 250,000,000 people believing in some type of higher power (in this country alone) who am I to say there isn't one?
Are you serious?...

>My opinion is with over 250,000,000 people believing in some type of higher power (in this country alone) who am I to say there isn't one?

You do realize that a fairly decent percentage of that number likely also believes in the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus right?

92% of the U.S. population believe in a religion

And... how many of them actually *really* are religious? How many go to church on Sunday? How many let it govern their lives to a degree of even 5%? I'm going to guess that number is less than 92%.

First off let me tell you that I think the guy who started this post has some issues. Someone that extreme is prob. on the FBI's watch list IMHO.

He is the very small minority of the people who are religious. Most people out there don't go around pushing thier religion down other people's throat.

68% of the American population belongs to a church/synagogue

44% of the American population attend a church/synagogue

Again Taken from - www.census.gov/prod/www/s...ct-02.html


Remember everyone always looks at the bad in things.

Try this if you want to see what I mean. Take a blank piece of white, nolines, paper. Put a black dot (about a half inch around) in the center of that paper. Walk up to someone and show them the piece of paper and ask them what they see. Most people will say they "see a dot" when in fact they are looking at a piece of paper with a dot that makes up 1% of that paper. Nobody notices the 99% of white that's on the sheet only the dot that stands out.

Just because there are extremists out there don't take them as the norm, they are an anomaly.

if you look at the bible there is no reference to a trinity.... if you find it please qoute it.

When I was young, I believed in the tooth fairy.

I don't any more.

When I was older, I beileved in the Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

I don't any more.

When I grew up, I was taught that god came down 7 times, with mr jesus being incarnation number 5. I went to a Sufism reoriented school grade school. Man...not even a real Sufi with the warrior tradition and turbans and stuff! Sufism reoriented had about as much to do with Sufism as Christianity has to do with Judeaism....or Mormanism has to do with Catholicism (you know...an existing set of beliefs that is adapted and morphed by some new guy into a different beilef, rather than creating one from scratch....as clearly the second option would have been less successful).

So when I became an adult I investigated other religeons, and found that as religions go, Sufism Reoriented made about as much sense as any other....more sense than most, actually, as it doesn't have all the factually contradictitory stuff found in most religions that gets swept under the rug of "well the people at the time didn't know any better".

Heck, the basic book, "God Speaks", by Meher Baba, reads like spiritual quantum mechanics...I don't think half of the folk who read the book even understood what the heck the author was saying (apparently this is a common theme to religions, as I found out later). Where other religions were telling you what to do, this book was telling you why religions bother telling you what to do. If other religions were diet books, this one was a book about nutrition. It described other religions as alternate roads to god, with the "saints as the highway signs". It had Friday school! (duh, what an obvious time to send the kids away...friday night, so the parents can play!). Going to church was going to dinner theatre, with the productions being the "sermon"...hey, even if you weren't into it, the pastries were fantastic!

Even so...despite even growing up with a religion that made sense, eventually I came to the conclusion that, like the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny, religion was yet another joke inflicted upon growing ...one that, unlike the others, most never do figure out the punchline... which was that those who believe are easier to control by "the elders" than those who don't.

Matthew 28:18-19: 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...

This doesn't explicitly proclaim the Trinity, of course. A search of the NIV and some other versions doesn't turn up the word "trinity," and a quick scan didn't net other references. Many early Christian sects did not accept the idea of the trinity (or Jesus' divinity, for that matter); given the lack of reference and the logical conundrum involved, you can't blame 'em.

I forget where my point with this was, but the trinity is just somethng made by religion, but there are three aspects to god listed, but never are they listed as total equals to god, and the lesser and closest to humanity bieng the spirit, closer then jesus actually.

My whole point for posting here is to illustrate one thing.

Im not, nor would I ever try to convince people that my way of thought is "correct". I truely do not care about anothers faith or lack thereof. It doesnt affect mine or impact it in anyway.

What I DO care about is misinformation.
There is a strong movement in Liberalism to advocate Atheism. Elements in it try to paint those who have faith in a deity as ignorant and/or dangerous. False statements like "Religion has killed more people than any disease" are part of a real smear campaign put forth by elements in the liberal agenda.

I want people to realize that this bullshit. There are people with faith who ARE informed, who have the same information that you have, but just come to different conclusions. People with religious beliefs and those without need to learn to agree to disagree, Zealots need to stop trying to convince people, and Liberals need to stop treating faith as something dangerous.

Im not saying anyone here is in this extreme left Liberalism.. I believe that the people here have come to their own conclusions in their own accord and without motive. But I ask people take a look at the extreme left and what it represents.
The extreme Right is no better... but at least its more open in its end results.

Keep in mind that Religions do alot of good in this world. They do help people, and are the largest source of chartible work in the world. There are parts of extreme liberalism that see this as a threat.. they want people dependant on ONE source.

By all means.. Believe or dont believe.. but dont be pawn.. and thats my only care.

I'd generally agree with that, though I'd spend more time pointing at the extreme right and the hold fundamentalist Christianity has on it.

I think the "liberalism pushing atheism" syndrome is more of a reaction to the very powerful Moral Majority/Christian Coalition lobbies of the past 20 years than a self-motivated front. Atheists have crap for political power/political representation (not a single open atheist holds a major political office, and polls have shown that people would rather have gay reps than atheists), so we tend to be concerned by politicians like Gary Bauer and Pat Robertson, and we tend to react negatively when politicians try to legislate morality.

But yes, ultimately we must agree to disagree, and keep an eye on the zealots on both sides of the equation. Throw pie at them.

Zealots need to stop trying to convince people, and Liberals need to stop treating faith as something dangerous.
I believe that Liberals often times fear Religion as being dangerous for exactly the reason that you included before that. Of course there are those who are informed and genuinely lead lives by the code their religion perscribes, and we've seen examples of these people. We've also seen examples of people who have used religion as a basis for their actions-- actions that are very questionable, at best. Westernizing parts of the world, for example, is one of them.



The extreme Right is no better... but at least its more open in its end results.
I couldn't disagree with this more. In fact, the extreme conservative viewpoint has its origins in exactly that-- maintaining the status quo of the ruling populations from the original despots of Europe. There is very little open-endedness, as most of the views derive from beliefs established by the religious monarchs from even earlier Europe.

The actual "phenomenon" of the "atheistic/agnostic" left is a direct result from the disgust of the lack of choice-- that Christianity's ideas sets the paradigm on social issues, and a lack of ability to believe in Christianity lends to the option that there are most definitely more ways that just the "Christian way-of-old" to establish political and social laws.



But I ask people take a look at the extreme left and what it represents.
I don't think you explained this-- what does it represent? To me, it's simply a choice. The only time I've seen this "anti-religious" stance is when Religion is specifically used as a reason for doing something-- when somebody throws in "God" as a reason to invade a nation, punish homosexuals, or whatever the issue is. For those people who believe that Religion is simply a driving force, you can understand exactly why such justification for issues is annoying and not in the least bit tenable.

I personally haven't seen it thrown out much at all besides that, and I'm certain that those agnostics/athetists don't have any negative views on religious organizations that contribue to different social programs and charitable funding. There is, in fact, a great deal of respect and appreciation for such groups, as even though they don't believe in the same thing about the order of the universe, they do believe in the same thing about the humanity of it's people. It's simply using "God" as a justification for aggressive/prejudiced acts that most Liberals find completely wrong.

The end result of extreme Liberalism can be seen in post Revolution France and Post Revolution Soviet Union.

Don't forget the purges conducted by Mao where if you were known to be religious, or owned a certain number of cattle you were killed.

(Well, had a little time to read the boards,not for lengthy discussion, on some of the posts, but cant resist replying....)

Daidal......
<waves. "Good-bye and thanks for all the fish".....(Hichiker's Guide to the Galaxy) :p

Well, while actually over the years I have run into/met several different types of non-humanoid entities, devine dolphines were not amoung them. Er excuse me...DIVINE, my spelling has always been horrable, I spell words like I think they sound.

Palm 22:32 Yes, exactly, a fullfilment of such.

Mandari ....
You believe in the existance of Malignant beings but not benevolent ones? By the way, If you ever are in the presence of a truely strong demonic entity you will find that you can sense that evil just as easily as if you were smelling a skunk that had just let one. It is something that makes you know that yes you have a soul, and yes, there are some fates that are worse than death.

Dextorr.....
I believe there are no theologions, how can you intelligently discuss theology?...
Circular logic, at least to me.

___________

I asked for no more visions as a vision is useless if its warnings are not headed. I saw dissaster for New York's Manhatten Island associated with a war in the Middle East. Though what I was shown indicated an earthquake, not planes hitting the two towers. A chasim underneath that city, where two faultlines join, making a 'V' and the Island sitting ontop like a plug.

There are many seeing visions and dreams that are not what what people call 'psychics' but the churches do not know the difference. Nor do they relay warnings to their elders higher up, or their parishoners under them. They do not even understand the warning in the book of Revelations, much less the whole of the scripture of the Book that they are supposed to go by.
There are a few good pasters and ministers out there, but it seems for the most part that churches serve the need as the social gathering areas now, ((we no longer have the town 'meeting house' gatherings as in the past centuries)), and a suppoirt structure, hopefully, for when we are in need, physically or emotionly.
But we must still beware of the wolves in sheep's...or shephard's clothing.


There will indeed be a religious structure that is rising up to inflict religion upon us in the name of God that is run by those who wish for power. It is my wish that those of Agnostic or Athiest beliefs to perhaps understand that there is a God, named by some as YHWH that has warned of this, and to not blame what happens on him, as he as warned about it. Join forces with the Christians that do resist, instead of saying 'dont force your religion down my throat'. It is a grim future. We will die in concentration camps or in battle. But we will not accept the government Id tagging. Think Im kidding? It has already started. The Camps have been built. The old ones built for housing the Japenese during WWII have been remodeled...updated. "Detention Centers'. Perhaps used for an illegal alien round up first. (Ever wounder why our borders are so badly policed).
Homeland Security......

Well, I had better stop now, lest I sound too much like a cultest. <Envisions massive 'flamings>

/cry

'My whole point for posting here is to illustrate one thing.

Im not, nor would I ever try to convince people that my way of thought is "correct". I truely do not care about anothers faith or lack thereof. It doesnt affect mine or impact it in anyway.'

This is very right. Neither do I care if You are religious. Until this is not changed (understand: noone tried to agressively persuade about his/her beliefs) we will be ok.
However the very first post in this topic can be 'offensive' to some. The anti-christian - and unintelligent - comments were replies to the first statement. It was not that 'fuck religion' first and 'burn in hell because you play this game' the second. this time. But both of these kind of comments are pretty unintelligent. Live and let live. intervene and they will intervene too.

What I DO care about is misinformation.
There is a strong movement in Liberalism to advocate Atheism. Elements in it try to paint those who have faith in a deity as ignorant and/or dangerous.

These are the same guys on our side as the ones who try to assidously - and agressively - convince atheist that they will rot in hell, even if his/her words are unwanted. This is not what i would call 'strong movement' but simply fools. Either if he/she is religious or atheist.

'False statements like "Religion has killed more people than any disease" are part of a real smear campaign put forth by elements in the liberal agenda.'

This is stupid, you are right. Easy to see, someone who exaggerates that much is either very low on historical knowledge and/or iq, therefore his/her statement should not be an issue for you.

'I want people to realize that this bullshit. There are people with faith who ARE informed, who have the same information that you have, but just come to different conclusions. People with religious beliefs and those without need to learn to agree to disagree, Zealots need to stop trying to convince people, and Liberals need to stop treating faith as something dangerous.'

Well, you miss the point. Faith itself is not dangerous. But people can be very easily influenced by religius isms.
But, not to go that far, check out countries which count as enlightened state - Poland - but due the storng and strict religious forces, for example, abortus is fully prohibited in the country. Now what an atheist or non-believing girl/woman thinks when she gets into trouble. She can not abort just because a part of his country believes in a god?
Do you see? While the religion can limit one who is not religious this is hard to imagine the other way...e.g. a religious woman/girl will never will be forced to abort.

And people love to lose their mind in such cases. They do not recognise that the only problem is christians - in this case - are limiting them. They won't only hate this rule, but they will generally hate christianism/religion. The mass never in history were intelligent enough to recognise in time when their TRUE rights were used for goals they have not shared before. And this is true for both atheist and religious ppl. Expression 'True right' could be discussed for pages, everyone understands different thing under this.

Keep in mind that Religions do alot of good in this world.

This is right. Too bad, that religion and different churces can not filter out persona non-gratas from their lines, who just use religion - and other's faith & fears - to fulfill their OWN goals.
Many times in history - for example - chirtians were lead by men who made wrong decisions. Yeah, crusaders, inquisition, etc. Or helping the nazis to save their assets during the ww2. You have to understand, those who do not believe are more careful and more suspicious with religious leaders. (of course this is not against christians. the islam suffers the same problem, and i betall other would too, if history rolls to other way)

They do help people, and are the largest source of chartible work in the world. There are parts of extreme liberalism that see this as a threat.. they want people dependant on ONE source.

The main problem - and 99% of atheist has no problem with religious charity - with this is, their money still comes from the taxes we all pay. Which is not right.
(sure i dont know how it works in the US if the situation is not like this over the lake, than disregard ) I most likely would donate some other kind of charity organizations, where I can be sure it won't be used for goals that i don't agree with.
(Of course other organization can use their money to their own goals, as a part of the islam terrorist financla base is sent as 'charity to those who suffers from Israel and US')

By all means.. Believe or dont believe.. but dont be pawn.. and thats my only care.

/agreee

The end result of extreme Liberalism can be seen in post Revolution France and Post Revolution Soviet Union.

....
How so?

Fascism (post Revolution Soviet Union) isn't liberalism.

Post Revolutionary France was a mess. The power stucture had been destroyed, and there wasn't anything suitable to take its place. While anarchy might be an extreme form of liberalism, I don't think that is what most liberals want.

Pointing fingers like that can go both ways, too.

The end result of extreme conservative thought can be seen in the erosion of personal privacy as cameras are installed on every street corner!

Nevermind that may people might *want* them there.

Anyhow, L2, in saying: Im not, nor would I ever try to convince people that my way of thought is "correct". I truely do not care about anothers faith or lack thereof. It doesnt affect mine or impact it in anyway.

You've thrown your lot in with the Liberals regarding religion. Why knock your own side?

This thread has convinced me that sacrificing puppies to Satan is probably a good option. Might even make Rockstar come out with more games.

-Amhorach-

I think he was talking about the 1917 revolution in Russia... . commonly believed to be communist, not fascist. I would hesitate to throw any label as yet on the 1990 revolution.

Liberal, conservatives, it really does not matter. Either you subscribe to religion or you don't. I see people of all political bents who fall into either camp.

To the original poster-

As far as someone deciding playing EQ=worshipping Satan, well, they are quite mistaken. EQ is a game. Playing a game is not worshipping. No one believes in the fictitious dieties, no one is worshipping them in their hearts, no one really believes anything in the game has any real life correlation. Get a grip. Have some fun and enjoy the life God has given you instead of trying to bend the rest of the world into your narrow view of what is sinful and what is not. Let God be the judge and tend to your own soul if you are a believer.

actually he might could have a point, I'll need to find the verse but I'm at work and don't have a concordance on hand.

something like

do not immitate or give the apperance of evil.

Which playing a avatar in EQ that's a necro or idolater could definatly be viewed as immitating.

so he can have a point based off of scripture, now to just find that verse.

There is also something in the New Testamont about not doing something if there is doubt in your heart about it because it is your own heart that condems you. Had something to do with the question of eating meat that may have been sacrificed to idols... and either that section or another one also said it was best not to ask questions about your food in the first place if you were a guest at another's home.

We started out with only one 'law' and succeeded in breaking it. All the rest that eventually got added to us seem to be to keep us from destroying ourselves. With Christ the overall result was to turn us back towards this, with the 'write the law in your hearts'....to be the one 'law' of doing to others what you would want them to do to you. Love one-another.
Love....not bomb, shoot, terrorize, burn at the stake, stone, etc.

Gulor:

I was talking about the 1917 revolution: I'd argue that there wasn't much liberalism after the revolution at all.

The chaos resulted in the freedoms that were fought for being reduced (War Communism), uprisings popping up all over like brushfires, etc. etc.

Yes, I skipped a few events. Yes, the war was started by liberals, but it quickly turned from a "liberal" revolution into a dictatorial power grab. Stalin was waiting in the wings from November, 1917 until he came into power.

that was in regards to a argument over some folks that had been fed meat they didn't know was sacrificed which was taboo at the time, it was a ritual law not actually handed out by god, then there was the issue of eating split hoofed animals in which god gave a vision of the visioner bieng handed down a huge net by god with all the "unclean" animals and bieng told to eat.

That law was generally assumed to have been a issue with earlier times food handling, and with split hoofed animals bieng the highest in disease no wonder god told them barbarians to not eat it since they wouldn't always prepare it right. God I don't think said don't eat splithooved animals or you die and go to hell, as opposed to some of his others and I think was making a point to say if you can't avoid it and it's not something like a 10commandment don't sweat it, it's just a ritual, and if you didn't know it was sacrificed it wasn't anything you could help.

This god changed it so we could make our own rules is BS though, he has baselines and lets you work from there.

My opinion is with over 250,000,000 people believing in some type of higher power (in this country alone) who am I to say there isn't one?

Reality isn't dictated by popularity polls.
If everyone on earth is a hardcore atheist, that's no proof that God doesn't exist. And if everyone is a catholic like in the middle ages, then that doesn't prove catholicism, christianity or Theism to be right.

Seriously, that kind of thinking is dangerous.

Social proof works in the average social situation.
If you end up in England and didn't know that they drive on the opposide side of the road there, you'll see everyone doing it and assume that it's the right thing to do there. If you kept to the usual side, you would cause a carcrash.

However, relying on social proof is a sure ticket to disaster.
Heard about the Catherine Gevonese case?
Girl got raped and slowly tortured to death in open street. 39 neighbours watched, and none of them did anything about it. Social scientists discovered that this kind of brutal inaction, or even action, is rather common. People see each other behave in a appaling manner, and do the same themselves because "everyone's doing it".

Experiments shows that if someone get a heartattack or get robbed or whatever, a single bystander will almost always help - and a crowd will almost always do nothing. First everyone expect someone else to do something about it, and then noone does and they all assume that since everyone's ignoring the problem, it probably isn't a problem at all but rather the way it's supposed to be.

Amorach.. what else is Liberalism on the extreme end?

Socialism, communism.. All people are equal and have equal portions supplied by the state. While all people are equal, some are more equal and must police the rest to assure that all stay equal.

Bleh.. read Animal Farm.

Besides.. Facism is "National Socialism"

what is the greatest achievement of American Liberalism? Of course it is FDRs New Deal which helped pull America out of the Great Depression. Of course.. being what it is.. this apparatus has never been able to dismantle itself, and like every bureaucracy it seeks to survive and grow. It latches on to new issues for its survival.

But imagine this New Deal growing out of control, expanding to its extreme ends. One huge sprawling massive bureaucracy on which all people are dependant.

Lol Liper, you might want to recheck that....

The 'clean' animals are the ones with both split hoof, and chew the cud.
Fish with both scale and skin
locusts and if I remember right, also beetles.
The one on birds might be a misstranslation somewhere, because it seems to prohibit birds that bob their head, yet Turtle Doves were considered 'clean' and could be offered as a poor-man's sacrifice.

Pigs were out, along with other scavengers due to them eating things besides plants. As well as being carriers of disease and parasites such as the Trichinousis worm. One of the common signs of the affiliction of this parasite in the past was no nose...
Today we get the new verieties of flue because in the orient they keep pigs in the same vecinity as ducks and geese, and pigs pick up the ever-present avian diseases in these birds (they carry 7 types) and then the virus mutates in the pig and spreads to us.

As for shell fish, well today we can avoid a lot of the hazards these used to present.

These indeed are rules and regulations, meant to keep us healthy...
Unlike the one dealing with the sacrifice which was a matter of the soul. If you asked and found that the meat being served you was sacrificed to an idol, you were advised to not eat it if.... you thought it was wrong to do so, or...
If you didn't think it was wrong to do so, but eating of such might lead 'weaker faithed' people into error.


There was a parable, a vision actually of all sorts of animals, being lowered down, and the Lord saying take up and eat...then telling the prophet that what the lord makes or determines clean is clean....
But here the main message was for the man to go out and assist a non-jew, foreigners being viewed as 'unclean'.

Amorach.. what else is Liberalism on the extreme end?

You are not getting what I'm saying. While the Revolution might have started off as extreme liberalism, it did not stay *true to its purpose* for terribly long.

While an untenable (but popular) idea can motivate people to do things like overthrow a government, the practical problems of sustaining a system like communism on a planet that is becoming smaller and smaller (in terms of social isolation) are myriad. Unless you can provide *everyone* with the highest standard of living they are able to observe (either in or out of the system), your communist system is doomed to fail.

Socialism, communism.. All people are equal and have equal portions supplied by the state. While all people are equal, some are more equal and must police the rest to assure that all stay equal

The minute someone is "more equal" then all people are not equal. The logical fallacy exposes the biggest lie in system. Last I checked, preaching one thing and practicing another was called "hypocracy".

Bleh.. read Animal Farm.

I have. Great view of why that system will never work. As I said, don't confuse what something is purported to be with what it is. Human nature is such that there are those who will always seek to take power over and control those around them.

In the case of the Solviet Union (and Stalin) saying you are a communist nation doesn't MAKE you one.

Neither was it a fascist state if you stick closely to definitions. Both fascist states and communist ones can and have been functional dictatorships, or at least very tightly controlled oligarchies.

You seem to equate fascism with dictatorship. They are NOT the same thing, though they tend to go hand in hand.

Stalin was quite devout in his adherence to communist trappings. I don't doubt his motivations were personal power, but he certainly used the communist dogma for all it was worth. However you want to characterize his regime, it certainly was far left, not far right wing in nature.

Weird...the discussion has mutated from bible thumping to dictatorships. My apologies for my part of the hijack. Back to your regularly scheduled religious topic.

I don't doubt his motivations were personal power, but he certainly used the communist dogma for all it was worth. However you want to characterize his regime, it certainly was far left, not far right wing in nature

HOW can you use communism for personal power? The two are almost mutualy exclusive.

I was using facsim as follows (from the lame ass dictionary I have):
"A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism."

Seems Stalin meets all of those requirements. Even if the socioeconomic controls are geared towards socialism, that doesn't negate the fact they were there.

The thing is Communism and socialism are based on theorys about people and require human beings to posses traits they do not have.
Yet it is still practiced. It is based in its core on faulty ideas.

A thing is what it is.. not what it is supposed to be.

Collective Farms, State Run industry, no personal property, banning of Religion.
Glasnost proved that COmmunism and Freedom cannot ever co-exist.
Thats russian communism.

NOW you are making sense, L2.

Before you were just making unqualified blanket statements.

My point wasnt the nature of communism.

My point is that extreme liberalism = communism. Communism is what it is.. and a society based on its principle unvaribly becomes the product of these fallacies.

This is a known fact, people understand that communism doesnt work, nor could it ever work, therefore, what reason is their to adhere to its philosophy.
The reason is simple.. Its a means to power. The ideals of communism appeal to people who have little.

The question becomes at what point does liberalism become faulty? At what level does the elevation of the have-nots at the expense of the Haves become debilitating? We have not reached that level in the US.. France is bordering on it however.

HOW can you use communism for personal power? The two are almost mutualy exclusive.

The problem here is that we are confusing theoretical communism with what has been practiced in the real world. Communism as it exists/existed is not what Karl Marx envisioned when he developed his ideas on Communism. In theoretical communism there is no "some animals are more equal than others." The government is also supposed to uninstall itself after it removes the formerly oppressive government. Then we all live in happy little communes.

...at least in theory.

Heh, how can you use communism for personal power? Promise a "worker's utopia" to the masses to get them pliable to your control. Take away competing sources of power (the church, wealthy individuals, etc.), put yourself in charge of overseeing the whole thing as "leader of the party", use the baser aspects of human nature (envy, fear, sadism) to identify and eliminate "counterrevolutionary elements" or possible rivals within the party and there you have it. Stalin was a master of it. As was noted, the system of the Soviet Union was not a true communism as described by Marx, but it is as close as has been accomplished in real life. As such, we call them communist. Likewise, no western country is a true democracy either, but we call them democracies because they approximate the ideal.

It is no coincidence that most if not all self proclaimed communist states were ruled by "strongmen" for most of their history. Mao, Stalin, Castro, Tito, etc. are all prime examples. Communist systems are excellent breeding grounds for dictatorships because they are so easily controlled by a very few people.

Then, as stated, they are not communist systems. They could be Socialist systems.

Also, L2 said:
My point is that extreme liberalism = communism

No. The extreme of liberalism is no system at all (call in anarchy for lack of a better word), where everyoneis responsible only to their own ideals. In the the Soviet Union, for example, their brand of socialism (a leftist view) was *conservative* and a free market economy would be a "liberal" idea.

Conservative and liberal connotations to anything are based on context. They are not actual systems.

Girl got raped and slowly tortured to death in open street. 39 neighbours watched, and none of them did anything about it. Social scientists discovered that this kind of brutal inaction, or even action, is rather common. People see each other behave in a appaling manner, and do the same themselves because "everyone's doing it".
Ahh, poor Kitty Genovese, ambushed at the door of her apartment by a mugger and stabbed. The mugger ran off, leaving her to cry for help. The mugger returned, stabbed her a bit more. She took about 30 minutes to die, crying for help all the while. Many in her apartment building heard her screams, but no one rushed to help, no one called the police, no one did a damn thing. The event spawned a movie; Harlan Ellison wrote "The Whimper of Whipped Dogs" in memory of it.

At least one researcher looked into this peculiar mindset. A man would fake a heart attack in a populated area, and the nature of any help was recorded. By and large, the more people around, the less the help. It's referred to as the "bystander effect."

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:OlmEmbar</em></strong><hr>The 'clean' animals are the ones with both split hoof, and chew the cud. <hr></blockquote>

wow way to correct someone who's not wrong. the split hooved that didn't chew cud (remember what I said about just split hooved) were unclean. /rude.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:OlmEmbar</em></strong><hr>These indeed are rules and regulations, meant to keep us healthy...<hr></blockquote>

Wow again, what did I say?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:OlmEmbar</em></strong><hr>There was a parable, a vision actually of all sorts of animals, being lowered down, and the Lord saying take up and eat...<hr></blockquote>

Again, what did I say? where's your original thought man? oh wait it was original to go and type out more useless dribble that adds nothing I guess?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:OlmEmbar</em></strong><hr>...then telling the prophet that what the lord makes or determines clean is clean....<hr></blockquote>

well I guess there's a little something new, wait, no I said this already about the food.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:OlmEmbar</em></strong><hr>But here the main message was for the man to go out and assist a non-jew, foreigners being viewed as 'unclean'. <hr></blockquote>

ah! here's the original thought, but ermmm... how does eating unclean food like pigs suddenly equate to ministering to the unclean gentiles?

oh wait, it doesn't. look to the good samaritan or the one about the black guy from, trying to remember, oh well I can't but he was at a pool and one of the prophets asked whatcha reading and helped him understand the books and lead him to God.


OlmEmbar

if you're going to correct someone at least correct em over something thier wrong about, asshole.

To the original poster-

As far as someone deciding playing EQ=worshipping Satan, well, they are quite mistaken. EQ is a game. Playing a game is not worshipping. No one believes in the fictitious dieties, no one is worshipping them in their hearts, no one really believes anything in the game has any real life correlation.

Are you sure?
http://pixyland.org/peterpan/Imagezz/peter_stand_large.jpg

Yes I know this guy is "Peter Pan" but still he shows there are people who lost touch with reality completely....

*brakes up his Erollisi Marr Shrine in the bedroom*

Well, certainly no one I know or have heard of who plays believes in any of the stuff. So I am as sure as it is reasonable to be, yes.

Webster (http://www.webster.com)'s fourth definition of idol is an object of extreme devotion. It doesn't have to be a golden cow :P

And if you play EQ and read these server boards for a majority of your day, how can you say you're not devoted to it?

Anything coming between you and God he considers an idol.

Then he needs to narrow his interpretation a bit. Working for a living takes up a lot more time than I spend thinking about EQ or religion. If not being a parasite on society comprises worshipping an idol since I am not spending all that time thinking about God, I guess I am screwed.

As far as coming between me and God, I think the religious fanatics do a far better job of disrupting my relationship with the divine than any other thing I can think of. I guess that makes them an idol too by that interpretation, though a negative one.

By that loose definition, any time spent NOT thinking about God is "idol worshipping". I think I prefer the more literal definition thank you very much.