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View Full Version : Polygyny, monogamy, and societal stability - comments on Miller/Kanazawa


Nydia Ywalmoriel
07-09-2007, 05:04 PM
Afternoon all :)

While procrastinating finishing a final exam this morning and playing random-collision rat browse, I came across this teaser/excerpt in Psychology Today of Miller and Kanazawa's new book: Why Beautiful People Have More Daughters, which contained some interesting cud-chewing fodder.

For the record, I've read Miller and Kanazawa's studies (neither is an evolutionary biologist btw - Miller was (d. 2003) a social psychologist, Kanazawa is an economist), and feel that they frequently appear to mistake a given effect of a formalized social paradigm on behavior (such as reproductive strategies or completed family outcomes) for biological cause, and often invoke biological determinism inappropriately/erroneously as a result; and that their most recent hypothesis (that 'attractive' people have a higher proportion of daughters) is both flawed in its methodology and fails to show significance, although they have done some brilliant work in the past specific to the social psychology realm.

I also feel that they tend to be too reductionist in general with regard to the value of 'beauty above all else' for females; while not to be discounted, this primacy is to a significant degree an effect seen in societies where women don't have a major place at the power table. In cases where women *have* power/money/status/essential skills these become important selection criteria, (and women who have them tend to themselves select upon more male-typical attributes), and even when where women are largely disenfranchised, non-beauty related selection criteria show up in everything from bride-prices/dowry ("She's got HUGE... tracts of land" ;) ) to very down-to-brass-tacks assessment of how much essential work the woman can do ("She must be strong... to carry wood down from the mountains" (quote from an Afghan man asked in a large scale study of what men look for in women))... but I digress... already ;).

The Psychology Today article: http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20070622-000002.xml is both tittilating and sure to increase sales of their book, and while I figure it'll be great fun and games to go down and argue the merits of the items on their list point by point, I'd like to concentrate on their contentions dealing with monogamy vs polygyny (social constructs as well as biological realities, to be sure, but close to the nexus of the male-female mating strategy conflict), and I was actually intrigued by one of their hypothesis clusters (as well as amused to see that polyandry, which is much more common than one might think, particularly depending on how one defines it, was dismissed and inappropriately ignored).

In general, the common gestalt in much of the world is that men are 'naturally' polygynous and that if men 'had their way', they would have as many wives/mistresses as they could. While there is certainly biological truth in that (although I've known a few truly and fundamentally monogamous men and in fact been married to one :) ), it ignores, Miller and Kanazawa contend, the biological reality that polygyny does not benefit, but rather harms, the majority of men (at least as far as their reproductive opprotunities go - witness all the young men being cast out of those fundamentalist Mormon polygynous cults for a close-to-home example), and that the majority of modern civilizations are formally codified as monogamous precisely *because* it benefits the majority of men.

Women, on the other hand, benefit (in a strictly biological sense) from polygyny, as it enables them to select more freely from the pool of available men in favor of individuals who possess both good genes and thre ability to provide well for their offspring; additional benefits are provided in the form of extra female hands to help with childrearing and other chores, improving fitness.

And at long last we get to where I was going in all this. Polygyny, if one draws Miller and Kanazawa's points to their logical conclusion, is a double-edged sword, for women in particular; for while it potentially benefits them biologically, when it is formally codified into a society, the results are frequently very harmful to women from a status, freedom, and human rights perspective.

In many subsistence level societies, or, one might argue, modern America and the West, women in fact *do* shop around for the 'best deal' they can make whether the object of their selection is already married or not, either formally (through serial monogamy) or informally; but interestingly, it is precisely in some societies where polygyny is formally accepted and encoded into law, making women 'scarce' to the majority of men, that women have the least control over their fates - relegated not to worthless, but priceless, objects which ironically are treated with contempt born of a deep-seated fear that if women are allowed any rights or education at all that they will use that knowledge/power to select (not them); generations of, for lack of a better word, sour grapes.

Another British (Oxford) sociologist cited in the Psychology Today article (and included in Miller/Kanazawa), Diego Gambetta, goes one further, citing the specific case of Arab Muslim societies with formalized polygyny; and provocatively (and perhaps spuriously, as modern Islamofascism *is* a modern phenomenon), hypothesizes that the reason the overwhelming number of suicide bombers are young Islamic males ties in to lack of prospects for access to women (and the promise of 72 virgins in heaven). This seems to be reaching in my mind because polygyny is *not* practiced with great enough frequency in the modern Islamic world to suck a large enough proportion of women out of the market as to create an army of discontented men on that basis alone; but it is interesting that this same social construct also has extremely punitive laws against adultery or *any* unsanctioned sexual behavior, making such things as prostitution, a common pressure relief valve for excess young buck testosterone, largely unavailable (as well as alcohol, also prohibited under Sharia law!), extreme modesty and movement codes for women, etc. I would submit that it is some of these other features of the social construct, beyond the polygyny itself, that create the true breeding ground for the increased violence of the society and that once again the sociologists are confusing cause and effect... but it has just enough of a ring of truth to it, especially to the uninformed and potentially biased Western mind, to be quite seductive, doesn't it?

For if polygyny and its resulting scarcity is to blame for the increased violence of men (and reduced status for women), then what does one make of *voluntary* scarcity creation (of females through female infanticide, feticide, or neglect) on a large scale, such as happens in India, China, and to a much less reported degree in South America? Why aren't these cultures creating suicide bombers? (I'm speaking independently of the whole 'why does female infanticide happen' issue, which is a whole separate can of worms)

Regarding the whole monogamy/polygamy debate (and I've changed terms here because I'm now being inclusive of both genders), I find it interesting that some of the very social phenomena we currently see in the West that many decry as signs of 'degeneracy' actually show signs of being a very healthy compromise for both genders with regard to the reproductive fitness dance, and throw us clear back to the pattern we engaged in as subsistence level indigenous peoples (and which can still be seen in certain tribes today); that one's formal marriage status is becoming increasingly irrelevant (or if not irrelevant, worked around via serial monogamy) with regard to selecting who one is going to parent with and parental investment strategies (particularly by men) are also undergoing a shift.

This has gone on way too long as usual, and I have a lot more to say on the topic, but I'd just like to add as a snarky aside to point #5 on the Psychology Today 'hot list' ("Having sons reduces the liklihood of divorce") that I was secretly, in the depths of my bitter little heart, gleeful to hear that Al Gore's son (his 5th child, Mr Environment kept on going for that boy) went into drug rehab following troubles with the law last week. What were your first four beautiful children with the double X, eh Mr. Gore? Chopped liver?

/delicately wipes foam from mouth :)

I guess I'd better get back to this stinking mess of grading, and hope you guys have as much, erm, fun with this basket of snakes as I did...

Regards,
Nydia

Nydia Ywalmoriel
07-09-2007, 07:26 PM
Oh, and before I pass out for a nap, let it be said that there are some truly amusing outgrowths of the id-marketing driven, least common denominator to the point of nausea mating dance, speaking of male/female stereotypes, to wit, "SugardaddyforMe.com"...

http://www.sugardaddyforme.com/

I'd also like to add, re my last paragraph above, that I *don't* think people breeding *indiscriminately and prematurely* is a good thing, especially in an overpopulated world (I'm not advocating the rampant teen 'baby-daddy' culture, in other words), but the whole issue of biology and precocious puberty, and *its* psychosocial effects, is another can of worms entirely... :)

Regards,
Nydia

Esbat
07-10-2007, 02:19 PM
Back when we were hunter/gatherers, many people were living at the edge of starvation. There might have been periods of feast followed by periods of famine, with little middle ground. Based in this, it might have made perfect sense to be attracted to someone who had the genetic ability to store food reserves in a fast and efficient manner (fat), but modern western societies don't find this attractive in most cases.

In that vein, I'm willing to be that the driving factors of raw animal biology (such as the struggle between male and female genes for birth size in humans, laws of attraction, etc) and the modern reporductive strategies are, by and large, not synched up to 100% compatability. I've read (and seen a special on Discovery or something) that more women than you might think select a provider based on their ability to provide for a family and then sneak off on the side and try to have kids with people who they might think have more genetic fitness. I recall one case on the show where a couple had 4 kids- one of them was from the coupling of the husband/wife, three were all from some other guy and the wife. Needless to say, the husband in the team was shocked. SHOCKED!

The bottom line is that women hold the ultimate biological trump card: they are 100% sure that the kids they are having are theirs (barring medical intervention, of course) while men can never be sure. More enlightened or trusting men just have to take it on faith that the kids are theirs. On the other extreme, serious and oppressive measures can also be taken to restrict women and give more certainty to the men in a society that they are breeding true.

Ok, I'm rambling. Out!

Nydia Ywalmoriel
07-11-2007, 03:34 PM
I'm swamped at work today and about to have to wipe my files off this computer and hand it in (bye LCC!) but just had to post this as an addendum to that whole 'prostitution serving as an important release valve' (not to mention source of income for women in cultures who may be proscribed from legitimate work) and that the lack of available pussy-for-hire (yes, I said 'pussy' on these forums ;) ) in Muslim countries might be a contributing factor to endemic violence, I got a giggle upon coming across *this* little snippet on the BBC today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6291100.stm

For those of you too lazy to click, the article documents a growing phenomenon of Kenyan prostitutes *adopting* the buibui (burka-like head to toe covering favored by Muslim women in the region) in order to attract Muslim clients and escape the attention of the police.

Truly, ingenuity in the world's oldest supply/demand game knows no bounds :). The best part of the article came at the end, with a quote from the organizing secretary of the council of Imams of Kenya:



"We are saddened because the government is ignoring the problem."

If the trend continues, police are likely to mistake respectable women for prostitutes, he says.

"For God's sake, if one has decided to join this profession, the uniform of prostitutes is well known.

"They should stick to their disgraceful attire."

Oh no! It does make enforcing those 'morality' laws much stickier, doesn't it? Although Kenya, not being a homogeneous country, isn't even in the same ballpark with regards ecclesiastical repression as the Arab states are, but I'm willing to bet that despite the 'male relative' restrictions on travel in those states, that a fair amount of the oldest profession goes on there as well...


Regards,
Nydia

Thormir
07-11-2007, 03:56 PM
Although Kenya, not being a homogeneous country, isn't even in the same ballpark with regards ecclesiastical repression as the Arab states are, but I'm willing to bet that despite the 'male relative' restrictions on travel in those states, that a fair amount of the oldest profession goes on there as well...I've read that Iraqi refugees in Syria and Jordan are turning to prostitution in ever growing numbers in order to subsist.

Haloface
07-11-2007, 04:48 PM
'yes, I said 'pussy' on these forums '

- I'm literally stunned!

Thormir
07-11-2007, 04:55 PM
You pussy.

Nydia Ywalmoriel
07-11-2007, 05:16 PM
Thor:

It certainly makes sense, given both the complete economic disruption in Iraq and the preference/tolerance of men in countries which are hostile to prostitution (and even those that are not) towards 'foreign' whores (that absolves both them and their own culture to a degree as it provides additional grounds on which to claim/justify that the whore is 'debased').

Ibudin
07-12-2007, 08:29 AM
I often wonder how nice it would be to have a couple more wives!

Malse
07-16-2007, 11:40 PM
Depends, do you get a couple more paychecks for them to spend?

Ibudin
07-17-2007, 06:15 AM
Depends, do you get a couple more paychecks for them to spend?

Well if I was adding a few more like my current one, I'd be getting a couple more paychecks to spend. Wife$>My$.