Suprised this hasn't been talked about yet. Couple of days old but, shows the entire contradiction in the war, unless there's different degrees of using chemical weapopns that is acceptable?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4442988.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4441822.stm

- While i'm sure some twats here will argue for its loosely indirect use, the mere fact that chemical weapons are in use there, when this entire war was conducted on the fact that these things are supposedly so evil, especially when used in war...and now the liberators are using them in their campaign of, er, liberation?
Seems suicide to me. Infact, sums the entire mess up pretty well.

They're incendiary weapons and it is pretty disingenuous to claim otherwise. If you're going to slam the Bush administration, there's plenty of solid basis to do so without making shit up.

The one thing I found interesting/amusing was the BBC said not to underestimate the infulence of bloggers these days.

They're incendiary weapons and it is pretty disingenuous to claim otherwise.

Munitions used by ground forces that contain white phos rarely have an incendiary role. All armies around the world use it to generate smoke be it from artillary shells, hand or tank launched grenades or smoke generators because it generates such a thick cloud of white smoke when it burns. It certainly does have incendiary properties and has in the past been used widely for that purpose but from aircraft bombs.

When used to generate obscuring smoke it is not considered a chemical weapon but in its use against people it is. I dont see how the use of this against people can be defended.

Looks like we're going to have to take away these Medal of Honors (http://www.army.mil/cmh/Moh1.htm)then...


WAUGH, ROBERT T.

First Lieutenant, U.S. Army, 339th Infantry, 85th Infantry Division... For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at risk of life above and beyond the call of duty in action with the enemy. In the course of an attack upon an enemy-held hill on 11 May, 1st Lt. Waugh personally reconnoitered a heavily mined area before entering it with his platoon. Directing his men to deliver fire on 6 bunkers guarding this hill, 1st Lt. Waugh advanced alone against them, reached the first bunker, threw phosphorus grenades into it and as the defenders emerged, killed them with a burst from his tommygun. He repeated this process on the 5 remaining bunkers, killing or capturing the occupants...

HARMON, ROY W.

Sergeant, U.S. Army, Company C, 362d Infantry, 91st Infantry Division... Sgt. Harmon ordered his squad to hold their position and voluntarily began a 1-man assault. Carrying white phosphorus grenades and a submachine gun, he skillfully took advantage of what little cover the terrain afforded and crept to within 25 yards of the first position. He set the haystack afire with a grenade, and when 2 of the enemy attempted to flee from the inferno, he killed them with his submachine gun...

JACKSON, ARTHUR J.

Private First Class, U.S. Marine Corps, 3d Battalion, 7th Marines, 1st Marine Division... Boldly taking the initiative when his platoon's left flank advance was held up by the fire of Japanese troops concealed in strongly fortified positions, Pfc. Jackson unhesitatingly proceeded forward of our lines and, courageously defying the heavy barrages, charged a large pillbox housing approximately 35 enemy soldiers. Pouring his automatic fire into the opening of the fixed installation to trap the occupying troops, he hurled white phosphorus grenades and explosive charges brought up by a fellow marine, demolishing the pillbox and killing all of the enemy. Advancing alone under the continuous fire from other hostile emplacements, he employed similar means to smash 2 smaller positions in the immediate vicinity...

JULIAN, JOSEPH RODOLPH

Platoon Sergeant, U.S. Marine Corps Reserve... Determined to force a breakthrough when Japanese troops occupying trenches and fortified positions on the left front laid down a terrific machinegun and mortar barrage in a desperate effort to halt his company's advance, P/Sgt. Julian quickly established his platoon's guns in strategic supporting positions, and then, acting on his own initiative, fearlessly moved forward to execute a 1-man assault on the nearest pillbox. Advancing alone, he hurled deadly demolition and white phosphorus grenades into the emplacement, killing 2 of the enemy and driving the remaining 5 out into the adjoining trench system. Seizing a discarded rifle, he jumped into the trench and dispatched the 5 before they could make an escape...

RUDOLPH, DONALD E.

Second Lieutenant, U.S. Army, Company E, 20th Infantry, 6th Infantry Division. ... when his platoon was attacked by an enemy tank, he advanced under covering fire, climbed to the top of the tank and dropped a white phosphorus grenade through the turret, destroying the crew...

I like the word 'dispatched' in the above excerpts. I have the uneasy feeling though, some around here don't, which is the underlying issue here.

No. Underlying issue #1 is that the military initially denied using WP as a weapon and then confessed to doing so after its use was brought to light by Italian media. Underlying issue #2 is that the Italian media also allege that WP was targeted at civilians, and while the Pentagon denies "targeting" civilians this, their credibility on the matter isn't exactly high (and using the word "targeting" allows for equivocation).

The articles make clear that the military wasn't using white phosphorus grenades; they were using WP artillery. Civilians may have simply gotten in the way, but it's well known that insurgents cower around the defenseless. Whether illegal or not, images of WP burns on apparent civilians make bad PR.

Better send in Karen Huges.

Underlying issue #1 is that the military initially denied using WP A State Department ambassador who didn't know what the hell he was answering does not make "the military." So stop with the coverup bull shit already.

Civilians may have simply gotten in the way, but it's well known that insurgents cower around the defenseless.

I'm sorry if terrorists chose to kill innocent civilians because they defended their little bunkers with them standing around. WP didn't kill them, the terrorists did.

Second, the articles make clear that the military only used white phosphorus when they couldn't hit them with high explosive rounds.

Whether illegal or not, images of WP burns on apparent civilians make bad PR. Which is the #1 reason I fucking hate terrorists so much. If they died, blame the TERRORISTS, not us.

define apparent civilians. How can ANYONE tell me who is a insurgent and who is a civilian? I know I could not tell by looking..

This debate over if it is a chemical weapon or not is a joke.. WP is used for illumination, cover, and yes.. an agent to ignite objects. It is unfortunate if it does kill a few innocent people, but that is the nasty dark part of war. It is amazing how far we have come in waging war, and keeping civilian casualties to a minimum. But no matter how hard you try, there will be collaterial damage.


Could you only imagine what the outcry would be if there was something like the firebombing of Dresden??

"Out of 28,410 houses in the inner city of Dresden, 24,866 were destroyed. An area of 15 square kilometres was totally destroyed, among that: 14,000 homes, 72 schools, 22 hospitals, 19 churches, 5 theatres, 50 bank and insurance companies, 31 department stores, 31 large hotels, 62 administration buildings as well as factories such as the Ihagee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihagee) camera works"

or imagine these casualties..


The precise number of dead is difficult to ascertain and is not known. Estimates are made difficult by the fact that the city and surrounding suburbs which had a population of 642,000 in 1939[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#endnote_USAF193 9) was crowded at that time with up to 200,000 refugees[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#endnote_Taylor-262), and some thousands of wounded soldiers. The fate of some of the refugees is not known as they may have been killed and incinerated beyond recognition in the fire-storm, or they may have left Dresden for other places without informing the authorities. Earlier reputable estimates varied from 25,000 to more than 60,000, but historians now view around 25,000-35,000 as the likely range[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#endnote_Bergand er2)[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#endnote_Evans2) with the latest (1994) research by the Dresden historian Friedrich Reichert pointing toward the lower part of this range[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#endnote_Reicher t). It would appear from such estimates that the casualties suffered in the Dresden bombings were not disproportionate to those suffered by other German cities which were subject to fire raids during area attacks[23 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#endnote_USAFsta ts)


and for those that do not understand what firebombing is...



The fire-bombing consisted of by-then standard methods; dropping large amounts of high-explosive to blow off the roofs to expose the timbers within buildings, followed by incendiary devices (fire-sticks) to ignite them and then more high-explosives to hamper the efforts of the fire services. This eventually created a self-sustaining firestorm with temperatures peaking at over 1500 °C. After the area caught fire, the air above the bombed area became extremely hot and rose rapidly. Cold air then rushed in at ground level from the outside and people were sucked into the fire.



The US military has taken HUGE steps to make warfare more civil, and often impose self punishment if steps are taken that are considered beyond necessary means.

I find the matter to be one of grasping at straws to attack the Americans.

The one blatant screw up is the talking head making it look like the U.S. is lying about the use of WP.

I have to agree with Akipt here, that the enemy using civilians as shields are the ones causing harm to them. We cannot turn and slink away because a civilian is between the enemy and us, because then there always will be from then on; that will become another weapon to use against civilized people.
I always think back to the movie "Speed" when this subject comes up: "Take the hostage out of the equation." It may seem cruel, but in the long run it saves more lives and fewer people are hurt.

As far as using WP, it has it's place in warfare. I would much rather see some well-placed WP shells than see a B-52 carpet-bombing the town.

(OK, Akipt, I have agreed with you. Now will you please get your party to talk to the Pres about running around making speeches looking like a petulant child? It is very unbecoming for a leader of the world's Superpower to look more focused on holding grudges against political enemies than on dealing with the country's and world's common issues. )

Part of the perceived problem here is that it "appears" we are using more caustic measures than ever before.

Truth is, the embedded reporters living up the soldiers ass's this war has given it more accessability to the comman man.

Nothing new going on folks, just folks before were ignorant to the realities that is war.

Blame the terrorists not the grunts doing their jobs.

Fandros

When used to generate obscuring smoke it is not considered a chemical weapon but in its use against people it is. I dont see how the use of this against people can be defended.

Any outcry about chemical weapons generates sensationalism. Police forces use chemical weapons against unarmed civilians in the US from time to time- it is called CS gas.

WP is not specifically classified as a chemical agent, but there is a school of thought that considers it to be so.

link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4442988.stm

The matter is very much open to debate, and no treaty has been signed that clearly indicates it *is* a chemical agent- unlike an agent such as Sarin. The two links provided don't even agree exactly as to its status. It is bad because it is a chemical that burns, or because of the fact that it burns in the presence of oxygen is it safe?

Also, this link has some information regarding the use of incendiary agents on civilian populations:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/int/convention_conventional-wpns_prot-iii.htm

Now will you please get your party to talk to the Pres about running around making speeches looking like a petulant child?

Only if you get your party leadership to stop trying to rewrite history.

If white phosphorous is a chemical weapon, so is anything else that involves exothermic reactions. That's not in debate and I don't think anyone seriously considers WP in the same category as nerve gas. And yes, I'm aware it's used to generate smoke, but that's because of how well and relatively cleanly it burns, you get nice clouds of white smoke in short order thanks to it's rapid oxidation rate.

The point, however, is that use of WP in areas with known civilian presence *is* fairly reckless and that's why US military policy has generally been not to do it. I don't understand how the firebombings of Dresden in WW2 even came into this, but that would be a prime example of the type of weapon usage we now acknowledge as cruel (in fact, it was considered cruel at the time and it's an instructive lesson in groupthink how it was given the go-ahead at all, numerous people in the US and British chain-of-command were vehemently against it). It's not clear from the article what the exact complaint is, but the general usage of WP and other incendiary munitions around civilians is simply not going to generate good press no matter how you spin it -- as apparent by the desire of people in the DoS and DoD to deny it.

It must be a slow news day in Italy, but that doesn't mean this isn't a further indication of the administration's intentionally deceptive means of prosecuting and representing the war. You don't win "hearts and minds" by shelling Fallujah with WP artillery regardless of why you're doing it.

Quick Halo to the Panic Room till they halt the use of anything other than sticks and stones!!!!

Really rather reactive of you, I thought you had grown out of this reckless type of journalism. Hell Gunpowder has led to the deaths of civilians during this war...

Fucking Bush and his penchent for salt peter concoctions....It's a lousy American policy!!!

Fandros

Part of the perceived problem here is that it "appears" we are using more caustic measures than ever before.

Truth is, the embedded reporters living up the soldiers ass's this war has given it more accessability to the comman man.

Nothing new going on folks, just folks before were ignorant to the realities that is war.

Blame the terrorists not the grunts doing their jobs.

FandrosThis is maybe the best way to put it. We had a big argument about this at work, seems that a number of people read the news articles and were fired up at the evil army. I think the majority of the American public does not actually understand that we are at war right now, since their daily lives tick on like normal. So when some journalist starts posting the realities of war everyone panics.

Forget what happened in World War II, just look at more recent conflicts from Vietnam up. War is not pretty, and when you start throwing cameras in front of it a population at home who is not actively participating is going to freak out. I wonder how different the public reaction to this war would be if similar actions were taken as in WW2 - heavy pushing of war bonds, materials rationing, PSAs, and the like. White Phos sounds pretty nasty unless you remember the poor grunts actual are in combat.

I'd rather see us up in arms about things like the use of depleted uranium shells or ... um ... what's that conventional bomb that basically acts as a weapon on a similar scale to a small nuclear warhead, but because it's convention isn't actually banned?

Good grief though, can you imagine if we had to deal with losses and horrors today that accompanied past wars? The general public isn't anywhere near ready to deal with that anymore.

Only if you get your party leadership to stop trying to rewrite history.

I am an Independent, and have not found out who our leadership is yet:(

I was Republican at one time, but became too embarrrassed by the hypocrisy.

It was atrocities by Britain that eventually turned the "hearts and minds" of the colonists against them.

The british were particularly brutal in their treatment of the people of India.

Shall we go on?

So,in the mind of some, it is A-OK to kill using a fragmentation round or mame using a fragmentation round, it is not howeverok to kill or mame using a WP round? Because you know the insurgent or US soldier with his legs blown off is sitting around now saying "Thank God it was a frag round that blew my legs off, because if it was WP I'd be pissed"

Here is a few facts for Halo and those who decide to pass judgement on people in a combat situation. The use of WP on the front lines is a decision made on those front lines, I assure you that it is not Bush on the other end of that field radio saying "pop some willy pete in there"

War in itself is a brutal act. Those who have not experienced it should not sit in judgement of those who are experiencing it.

White Phosphorous, WP or "Willy Pete" whatever one may call it is basically used as marker rounds for air strikes.On the side it is a very effective way to clear a bunch of well entrenched enemy soldiers, fighters, insurgents or whatever you want to call them, out of a position of cover.

I dis-agree with the overall conduct of the war in Iraq by our people in power. I do not dis-agree nor will I attempt to remotely judge the conduct of a soldier in a high stress, its me or them type of situation. But I do know this, when I was a 19 year old Marine I could have given a rats ass as to how I killed the other guy who was trying to kill me, what mattered was he died and I didn't.

Judge not...lest ye be judged.

What a terrible week for the effort in Iraq.

a. We learn the torture rooms in Iraq havent closed after all.
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/wire/sns-ap-iraq-torture-allegations,0,7022047.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines

b. We learn the govt we are propping up is corrupt
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/wire/sns-ap-iraq-torture-allegations,0,7022047.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines

c. Becoming more obvious the "foreign fighters" arent so foreign as we think
http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20051117-08135500-bc-iraq-insurgents.xml

d. Democracy in the middle east not that good it seems as the Muslim Brotherhood wins big in Egyptian elections
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=20131


Iraq becomes an EXPORTER of terrorism
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/middleeast/article_1062564.php/Jordanian_interior_minister_criticizes_al-Zarqawi

This Iraq thing is turning into a complete and total failure.
Piss Poor Planning gets Piss Poor Results.

You forgot to bitch about the 11 or so soldiers who died needlessly this week.

Needlessly? They put an end to a tyrannical, chemical weapon using regime, by using...chemical weapons.


Silly civilians who get in the way, shame on them. Don't they know there's a war going on?

Since I know Fandros is irate at politicians spinning war talk for political purposes, he'll find this as interesting (and irritating) as I do. Here is Murtha's original resolution:


Resolution Whereas Congress and the American People have not been shown clear, measurable progress toward establishment of stable and improving security in Iraq or of a stable and improving economy in Iraq, both of which are essential to "promote the emergence of a democratic government";


Whereas additional stabilization in Iraq by U, S. military forces cannot be achieved without the deployment of hundreds of thousands of additional U S. troops, which in turn cannot be achieved without a military draft;

Whereas more than $277 billion has been appropriated by the United States Congress to prosecute U.S. military action in Iraq and Afghanistan;

Whereas, as of the drafting of this resolution, 2,079 U.S. troops have been killed in Operation Iraqi Freedom;

Whereas U.S. forces have become the target of the insurgency,

Whereas, according to recent polls, over 80% of the Iraqi people want U.S. forces out of Iraq;

Whereas polls also indicate that 45% of the Iraqi people feel that the attacks on U.S. forces are justified;

Whereas, due to the foregoing, Congress finds it evident that continuing U.S. military action in Iraq is not in the best interests of the United States of America, the people of Iraq, or the Persian Gulf Region, which were cited in Public Law 107-243 as justification for undertaking such action;

Therefore be it


1) Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in 2) Congress assembled,


3) That:

4) Section 1. The deployment of United States forces in Iraq, by direction of Congress, is

5) hereby terminated and the forces involved are to be redeployed at the earliest practicable

6) date.

7) Section 2. A quick-reaction U.S. force and an over-the-horizon presence of U.S Marines

8) shall be deployed in the region.

9) Section 3 The United States of America shall pursue security and stability in Iraq

10) through diplomacy.
Senate Republicans have decided upon their own resolution, though they're characterizing it as originating from Murtha (and, hence, the Dems). This is their version:
RESOLUTION Expressing the sense of the House of Representatives that the deployment of United States forces in Iraq be terminated immediately. Resolved, That it is the sense of the House of Representatives that the deployment of United States forces in Iraq be terminated immediately.

Aye, and the vote came out last night. 303 to 3 against the resolution.


Gods, just let our soldiers do their damn jobs and save the spinning for other topics huh...

Fandros

Just what is the job Fandros?

People argue that pulling out will lead to a civil war. fucking open your eyes they already have one going on and our troops are smack in the middle of it.
Are you gonna tell me that bombing's at a Shiite mosque hundreds of miles away from baghdad and our troops are somehow meant as a strike at us?
I love and respect our military greatly, hell we are the best in the world and imho one of the top five in the history of mankind. but this is a big ol'shit storm we stepped in and no matter how hard we try i dont see how we can put the pile back together again.

The difference between White Phosphorous and Nerve gas is huge Halo, it'd be like saying we should use steel shot in our bullets because we don't want them to die from lead poisoning...

http://usinfo.state.gov/media/Archive_Index/Illegal_Weapons_in_Fallujah.html


...
Finally, some news accounts have claimed that U.S. forces have used "outlawed" phosphorous shells in Fallujah. Phosphorous shells are not outlawed. U.S. forces have used them very sparingly in Fallujah, for illumination purposes. They were fired into the air to illuminate enemy positions at night, not at enemy fighters.

[November 10, 2005 note: We have learned that some of the information we were provided in the above paragraph is incorrect. White phosphorous shells, which produce smoke, were used in Fallujah not for illumination but for screening purposes, i.e., obscuring troop movements and, according to an article, "The Fight for Fallujah," in the March-April 2005 issue of Field Artillery magazine, "as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes …." The article states that U.S. forces used white phosphorous rounds to flush out enemy fighters so that they could then be killed with high explosive rounds.]
...

http://usinfo.state.gov/media/Archive_Index/Illegal_Weapons_in_Fallujah.html

There ya go Halo, feel better now. We killed them with fragmentation. Now the dead are happy.

Another avenue that you might pursue Halo would be to talk to a few Brit vets from the conflict, and see if they think the use of WP is considered chemical warfare.

And I mean talk, not read published thoughts. It is amazing the difference when you are face to face and looking in the eyes of someone who has taken part in such actions.

White Phospherous would be cruel and unusual warfare if we were setting the grenades on the chest of a staked out prisoner; it is not a banned weapon when used as it is being described.

(Hey, any of you new troops! Are they still using old jeep or truck hoods to show how the WP grenades burn thru metal? They did that back when I went through basic.)

No, that's "too dangerous" .... yeah imagine that one, here you might have to throw one of these, but we won't demonstrate because someone might get hurt. /sigh

Talk till your blue in the face, once Halo is told by his sources something is such he won't change.

WP isn't the same as a nerve agent bud.

Of course in your eyes unless we used sticks and stones to battle you wouldn't be happy? (assuming we didn't have longer sticks and bigger stones)

Fandros

Velvet, open your eyes and...well wait. Have you ever served over there? Curious, see your opinion is important but I'm curious what the public opinion (yours) for folks that have/haven't been over there.

Curious if you can open more than your "fucking eyes".

See the great thing about us and our allies is that even if they didn't strike directly at us we still want to help. They bombed a mosque, you don't see that as something we should help?

hmmmm should I make it more personal? naaaaahhhhh you don't connect, you don't know....you are simply told....

Fandros


Just what is the job Fandros?

People argue that pulling out will lead to a civil war. fucking open your eyes they already have one going on and our troops are smack in the middle of it.
Are you gonna tell me that bombing's at a Shiite mosque hundreds of miles away from baghdad and our troops are somehow meant as a strike at us?
I love and respect our military greatly, hell we are the best in the world and imho one of the top five in the history of mankind. but this is a big ol'shit storm we stepped in and no matter how hard we try i dont see how we can put the pile back together again.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4483690.stm

*cough*

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4483690.stm

*cough*I'm not sure that's new news. Everyone who isn't beating their "teh US is teh dev1l!!onee11eleven11!!" drum already knows that (a) it isn't a chemical weapon, and (b) "A bullet goes through skin even faster than white phosphorus does..."

Our troops aren't stupid. Everyone and their sister, even in the middle east, has a camera. While there have certainly been a few idiots, as a whole, and while you can make arguments about the necessity and motivations for the war -- our troops are waging war the right way.

'our troops are waging war the right way.'

- I agree. Despite that whole sexual, naked torture orgy thingy.
Yeah.

I am getting really tired of hearing the worn out defense of "you are not a veteran, you don't really know what's going on, your opinion doesn't count, the veterans are the only ones whos opinions matter". Well, guess what? There are 150000 troops in Iraq. Even if every single one of the "trained to kill, shoot anything that moves, roid raging, that's a good gook, good and dead" veterans think that the war is the right thing to be doing, they are greatly outnumbered by the 65% of the country that disagrees.

'our troops are waging war the right way.'

- I agree. Despite that whole sexual, naked torture orgy thingy.
Yeah.Translation: Gee, well, you guys are right about the whole phosphorus thing, but....look over there! Abu Gharib!

Even if every single one of the "trained to kill, shoot anything that moves, roid raging, the only good gook is a dead gook" veterans think that the war is the right thing to be doingCheese and Rice play Lacrose, could you be a little more condescending to the people who already risked (or currently do risk) life and limb fighting for their country?

I am getting really tired of hearing the worn out defense of "you are not a veteran, you don't really know what's going on, your opinion doesn't count, the veterans are the only ones whos opinions matter". Well, guess what? There are 150000 troops in Iraq. Even if every single one of the "trained to kill, shoot anything that moves, roid raging, the only good gook is a dead gook" veterans think that the war is the right thing to be doing, they are greatly outnumbered by the 65% of the country that disagrees.

You really don't know what you're talking about. Also, if you think the troops over here think anything like "the only good gook is a dead gook" Then you watch too much tv propaganda. Put your Susan Sarandon novel down now please. By the way, I am not a "trained to kill, shoot anything that moves, roid raging veteran" I'm just over here helping people stand up on their own. The Iraqi people I have met, have been some of the most interesting human beings I have ever met in my life. The Iraqi soldiers are a very proud and determined bunch of people, I respect what they are doing a great deal. When they have the training they need and they can provide security for their own country, they will.

US forces have already turned over 29 military bases to the Iraqis.
Baghdad's once-violent Haifa Street is now more peaceful and under the control of an Iraqi Army battalion.
The Iraqi army has eight division and 33 brigade headquarters in operation, compared with none in July 2004.

But, we are not making a difference. Really.

:devil

Just popping in to say hi!!! Good to see everyone beating the horse still.. Keep up the good work those of you serving. Thank you!!!!!

Don't say that, you are making a difference. Way more people are dying now then before you came. The streets are a lot more dangerous now.
You Americanized the hell out of 'em. Before you know it, they'll have hoods and gangs and stuff. So don't do that to yourself. Cheer up.

'Translation: Gee, well, you guys are right about the whole phosphorus thing, but....look over there! Abu Gharib!'

- Translation: Gee, you're wrong, you can't be as trusted as when you were torturing people in sadam's old torturing dens.

Halo? Are you still getting your info from that drunken pub buddy of yours?

Way more have died? As Chevy Chase used to put it....Jane you ignorant slut...

Doubt we've gassed/killed nearly as many as Saddam did in his reign of terror.

And please mutha fucka, don't speak as though England is without it's own ugly sections of town/activities...

Football Holligans anyone??

Fandros

I didn't realize Susan Sarandon wrote or starred in Platoon...

Anyway here is a nice article for you Trikki, enjoy!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10271865/

As Chevy Chase used to put it....Jane you ignorant slut...


Ahem...that would be Mr. Dan Ackroyd, please.

DOH, you sure bout that Byl? As I recall it twas Chevy that did the spoof news on SNL. Been too many years and likely you're right.


Fandros

Here's the thing Phel. Were you to inject opinions about your job field ( can't recall what it is, just remember that it was impressive) I'd say....okay sounds good to me. Now, you want free reign to guess/ponder on what I ( and others like me) have seen and done over in the ME without simliar background? Sorry, I'll have to check ya into the boards for it.


Fandros

Dan Akaroyd for sure.

Here is a nice article for you Phel, enjoy!

Iraq suicide blasts at lowest level in 7 months (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10276071/)

I don't know, seems a tad early to be claiming that a mere one month long lull in bombings is a result of our operations. I'd feel more confident if it were a 2-3 month streak, this could just be due to any number of reasons unrelated to our armed forces.

Like Ramadan or whatever they call it?

Those statements in my article have as much or more ground to stand on than those made by those in the loner 'on the street' in Phel's article. /shrug He was being snarky, so was I :p

There was a similiar local drop in insurgent activity after the fall of Fallujah last year.

The calm before the storm...

If I recall correctly Ramadan has been over for quite sometime.

You're starting to see a lull because the masses are rising up against the insurgents themselves. Their leaders are being disowned by their own families and making public statements to the same.

It's the only way you'll see this end. When the people themselves no longer tolerate their bullshit.

But hey, keep blaming the US....it's all the rage cuz all the cool kids are doing it!!!!

Fandros

yeap you're right Fandros.....it was over on 11/2/05. Or so sayeth the internet.

When the people themselves no longer tolerate their bullshit

ABSOLUTLY RIGHT!!!!!

Fandros, did you just compare football hooliganism to the war in Iraq?

Yegods.

Didn't think they could come any thickererer.

No Halo ya drunken sot. I'm making the comparison based on this post by you....




Don't say that, you are making a difference. Way more people are dying now then before you came. The streets are a lot more dangerous now.
You Americanized the hell out of 'em. Before you know it, they'll have hoods and gangs and stuff. So don't do that to yourself. Cheer up.

'Translation: Gee, well, you guys are right about the whole phosphorus thing, but....look over there! Abu Gharib!'

- Translation: Gee, you're wrong, you can't be as trusted as when you were torturing people in sadam's old torturing dens.