http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/27/israel-launches-air-strik_n_153664.html

wtf happened here? This seems way out of proportionality.

Is this a move by Israeli hardliners?

absolutely fucking terrible, but sadly not surprising from israel.

Well, I think one key was in the article itself:
The air offensive followed weeks of intense Palestinian rocket and mortar fire on southern Israel, and Israeli leaders had issued increasingly tough warnings in recent days that they would not tolerate continued attacks.

Well, I think one key was in the article itself:

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind...

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind...

Defiant Hamas leaders threatened revenge, including suicide attacks. Hamas "will continue the resistance until the last drop of blood," vowed spokesman Fawzi Barhoum.

The rest of the world gets it...

When the fuck is the United States going to wake up and see the situation for what it really is?

The problem is the Jewish community in our country (perhaps in all countries) views Israel as an infalible religious mecca instead as a foreign nation.

Why were the Palestinians shooting rockets at them?

I'm sure there isn't a good enough reason for that.....

The problem is the Jewish community in our country (perhaps in all countries) views Israel as an infalible religious mecca instead as a foreign nation.And any political leader in the US who speaks out against Israel is labeled as being in favor of a second Jewish Holocaust.

There is an election coming up soon in Israel (10FEB2009), so all the parties there have to wave their dicks to show who's got the biggest sack of balls.

And any political leader in the US who speaks out against Israel is labeled as being in favor of a second Jewish Holocaust.


The problem is that the political leaders need to cowtow to the Christian fundamentalists here because the Christian fundamentalists believe that they need Israel to make the Biblical prophecy of the Jews in Israel converting to Christianity in the end and the ones who don't get to be killed by the christians. So as much as the Jews want to kill the palestinians and the palestinians want to kill the Jews it's the Christian fundamentalists that in the end NEED to kill the jews to get into heaven.

So it works out nicely for all and the Israelis feel needed.

Why were the Palestinians shooting rockets at them?

I'm sure there isn't a good enough reason for that.....

how about isreal suffocating them with a blockade, refusing to let food, water and medical supplies in? how about the continuation of illegal occupation?

besides, its not like israel broke the ceasefire first...or is it?

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-gaza19-2008dec19,0,296710.story

"The truce began to unravel Nov. 4 when Israeli forces entered Gaza for the first time since June to blow up a tunnel that, according to Israel, Hamas was digging as part of a plan to capture Israeli soldiers along the border. Six Hamas members were killed during the operation."

oh snap.

I dont think there was any unusual amount of Hamas activity. It seemed to be more less before this pretty much status quo.

It has me wondering if Israel is concerned that the Obama administration will not be willing to give them the free hand that the Bush administration has and decided to try to clear up all crap they could while they still enjoyed carte blanch.

I will start by saying I know most will not agree with me and my position regarding this conflict, and I am not in any way going to try to convince anyone that I am right or they are wrong.

I firmly believe that Israel did the right thing. They have been pummeled with rockets for the past week, and have warned Hamas that they were not going to keep sitting and taking it. They also were making cell phone calls to people to vacate areas where they suspected weapons were stashed, to avoid innocent casualties.

Israel targeted Hamas; they then went after the individual mortar teams. And, it should be noted that even though they had been receiving rocket attacks almost immediately after Hamas declared the cease-fire to be over, they still relaxed control of the border crossings to allow traffic and supplies to move.

There were at least 100 rockets fired on Israel in the past week. They said fuck it and went after the folks that want to have war rather than dialog. It's about time. Now maybe they can go back to negotiating.

even though they had been receiving rocket attacks almost immediately after Hamas declared the cease-fire to be overYou do realize that Israel ended the ceasefire over a month ago? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians)

Here is a gem:

"This was a pinpoint operation intended to prevent an immediate threat," the Israeli military said in a statement. "There is no intention to disrupt the ceasefire, rather the purpose of the operation was to remove an immediate and dangerous threat posted by the Hamas terror organisation."Haha. We didn't want to disrupt the ceasefire, we just shot some mother fuckers.

Byl, people aren't objecting to individual Israeli attacks, most of which can be easily justified, but against their overall policy and strategy in dealing with Gaza and the Palestinians in general. It's easy to say that Israel is behaving better than Hamas and talk about justice or who did what to who, but that misses that they're both being hugely unconstructive and at some point, somebody has to own up and fix the situation.

If it's not going to be Hamas ... or rather, if lots of other people aren't going to let it be Palestinians...

Its horrible, tragic, an outrage. Blah Blahity fuck'n blah.

Its also not a surprise to anyone. Par for the course. If you mess with Israel, then expect to be curb stomped. Hopefully we (Americans and anyone else who thinks this Middle East mess is just a load of crap) will finally just butt out, sit back, and let all these wackos kill themselves. Thousands of years of death and destruction have taught these fools absolutely nothing. You would almost find it a reasonable assumption that they must teach hatred in the school systems over there. Middle East "Peace" my ass. It will never work. NEVER. Its not a business the rest of the world should consider "their business" unless we really want to have an even broader conflict.

Screw it. Let them kill each other off. Less flawed DNA material in the global gene pool. Now you wise sages can continue to pontificate from your computer screens as to how it must be fixed, someone needs to take ownership of the peace etc etc etc. Hearts can continue to bleed and jaws can continue to flap. Glad you have those bases covered. Well, its not my problem. I don't care. Fuck em. If Israel wants to blast yesterdays stone throwing and tire burning Palastinian teenagers who became today's rocket and mortar lobbing Hamas scumbags into the stone age then why not let them. Its their business. You want to go down there and tell them to stop? Be the world's guest.

Its horrible, tragic, an outrage. Blah Blahity fuck'n blah.

Its also not a surprise to anyone. Par for the course. If you mess with Israel, then expect to be curb stomped. Hopefully we (Americans and anyone else who thinks this Middle East mess is just a load of crap) will finally just butt out, sit back, and let all these wackos kill themselves. Thousands of years of death and destruction have taught these fools absolutely nothing. You would almost find it a reasonable assumption that they must teach hatred in the school systems over there. Middle East "Peace" my ass. It will never work. NEVER. Its not a business the rest of the world should consider "their business" unless we really want to have an even broader conflict.

Screw it. Let them kill each other off. Less flawed DNA material in the global gene pool. Now you wise sages can continue to pontificate from your computer screens as to how it must be fixed, someone needs to take ownership of the peace etc etc etc. Hearts can continue to bleed and jaws can continue to flap. Glad you have those bases covered. Well, its not my problem. I don't care. Fuck em. If Israel wants to blast yesterdays stone throwing and tire burning Palastinian teenagers who became today's rocket and mortar lobbing Hamas scumbags into the stone age then why not let them. Its their business. You want to go down there and tell them to stop? Be the world's guest.

I think we were discussing it on the discussion board here.

Honestly...what is there really to discuss? People have been discussing this for thousands of years. Some of the world's brightest minds, influential leaders and most respected diplomats have poured countless years of effort into this...and yet its still something to discuss. Do people on a online board feel they have the answer to this problem? Probably not but that doesn't stop people from wanting to express an opinion or even better yet, outrage because the right thing to do is be outraged. Correct? I am sorry if I offended you by raising the bullshit flag on this, but FFS. Do you have a solution? No? Well whatever you type has just as much merit as my opinion, only it probably goes more along the line of what the herd feels is the correct thing to say since it doesn't matter what position you take. Its all taboo. I expressed an opinion. One that is probably more based on reality than any other. That opinion is:

FUCK EM.

People have been dying for stupid reasons for as long as there have been people. Especially in the Middle East. Nothing anyone posts here will ever change that. Its up to the people in the conflict to decide when they have had enough.

Honestly...what is there really to discuss? People have been discussing this for thousands of years. Some of the world's brightest minds, influential leaders and most respected diplomats have poured countless years of effort into this...and yet its still something to discuss. Do people on a online board feel they have the answer to this problem? Probably not but that doesn't stop people from wanting to express an opinion or even better yet, outrage because the right thing to do is be outraged. Correct? I am sorry if I offended you by raising the bullshit flag on this, but FFS. Do you have a solution? No? Well whatever you type has just as much merit as my opinion, only it probably goes more along the line of what the herd feels is the correct thing to say since it doesn't matter what position you take. Its all taboo. I expressed an opinion. One that is probably more based on reality than any other. That opinion is:

FUCK EM.

People have been dying for stupid reasons for as long as there have been people. Especially in the Middle East. Nothing anyone posts here will ever change that. Its up to the people in the conflict to decide when they have had enough.


I don't think anyone here thinks that their posts are going to change things between Israel and the Palestinians and I think that we are mostly capable of grasping that this has gone on for decades, mostly it's just opinions...we trash Israel, Fandros comes in and calls us unpatriotic, I fling poo at him...he flings it back at me....Jedd posts how we screwed the middle east up...we mostly agree...then he posts that the Iranians will kick our asses...Then Bylimet, Fandros and me all tell him that the Iranian military sucks...then things get way way out of hand and someone posts a really good recipe for chicken or something like that and we move on to the next subject we can't do anything about.

I'm glad nobody ever tries to have an informed discussion about cancer since that's been killing people for even longer than religious stupidity in the tropics.

(for the record I wouldn't object to a "fuck em" policy but that's never going to happen, so moving right along)

Not to mention that the current situation is one that stems mostly from events occurring within the past century.

People who believe that this is a conflict stemming over thousands of years are simply confused.

People who believe that this is a conflict stemming over thousands of years are simply confused.

True. To a degree. Israel is a new concept as far as the birth of the nation state. Arabs consider them squaters on their land so to speak, thus all the sour grapes. Still, just to futher add, to clear up confusion since I count myself in the category of "ignorant, confused, or maybe even just plain fuck'n stupid", Arabs (muslims)and Israelites(jews) were skipping through the proverbial field of wild flowers holding hands before the past Century?

I don't feel the need nor have the time or even desire to look up the past thousands of years of history, be it as skewed as it may be, concerning the years of history and politics surrounding the patch of dirt that is now called Israel. Looking up "Jerusalem" might narrow the search down a bit, as that burg has some interesting history to it, or maybe even just "Holy Lands". Perhaps I should just re-read the Bible. That information was good enough for our current (be it outgoing) President. So yah. Silly me. I am so confused. Perhaps we should settle it all like they did in "Spies Like Us" with a game of Trival Pursuit.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/27/israel-launches-air-strik_n_153664.html

This is getting big... I expect a full blown Israeli takeover of Gaza before Obama becomes president.

I'm glad nobody ever tries to have an informed discussion about cancer since that's been killing people for even longer than religious stupidity in the tropics.

Eliminating cancer is almost politically harmless, minus stem cell treatment suggestions. Cancer is bad so lets wipe it off the earth. Very straightforward since no one cares about the well being of the cancer cells. Talk about turning the Middle East into a glass parking lot and solving the problem once and for all........ yah. People tend to get a bit rattled since its the cop out method when the goal is to have peace AND keep all the perpetrators alive as well. The point is cancer can be cured and will be cured one day and it really is a worthwhile topic for discussion. There are always exciting new breakthroughs in treatment and prevention happening all over the world every day. The Middle East peace process, which is going just about nowhere, has to cure itself in the same manner of wishing or praying away terminal cancer, hoping for miracles because there is nothing more the oncologist can do for you.

Eliminating cancer is almost politically harmless, minus stem cell treatment suggestions. Cancer is bad so lets wipe it off the earth. Very straightforward since no one cares about the well being of the cancer cells. Talk about turning the Middle East into a glass parking lot and solving the problem once and for all........ yah. People tend to get a bit rattled since its the cop out method when the goal is to have peace AND keep all the perpetrators alive as well. The point is cancer can be cured and will be cured one day and it really is a worthwhile topic for discussion. There are always exciting new breakthroughs in treatment and prevention happening all over the world every day. The Middle East peace process, which is going just about nowhere, has to cure itself in the same manner of wishing or praying away terminal cancer, hoping for miracles because there is nothing more the oncologist can do for you.

I would like to point out that turning Israel into a glass parking lot would have the same effect.

I would like to point out that turning Israel into a glass parking lot would have the same effect.

Israel is in the Middle East, correct? So yes, that was implied. Why be selective. We are not talking about picking and choosing any particular nations. Its along the lines of remove an entire region off the globe, as in Arabs and Israelis ALL have to find somewhere else to live and be bad neighbors and be the bitch of whatever host nation would be stupid enough to take their sorry asses in. If kids can't stop fighting over a toy, take the toy away from them both.

Now, Jedd. Hopefully I am just just being confused, but this bit you just said here with you being of Middle Eastern decent, perhaps representing some of the views of the opposing faction, is pretty much why there will NEVER be peace in the Middle East. No one will be happy and able to sleep at night as a good Muslim until Israel is "wiped off the face of the earth", quoted since its a common catch phrase over there. Perhaps there will be peace when either Israel gets recognized as being an unwanted neighbor but still a neighbor OR Israel is wiped off the map as promised. If Israel gets wiped out, its a good bet the whole region will get the glass parking lot treatment it so justly deserves since taking out Israel can't happen without going nuclear and nuclear war is all about tit for tat.

Maybe Lumm's gotta point. turning Israel, Gaza, West bank, So. Lebanon and oh hell lets throw Syria in for good measures into the proverbial glass parking lot might actually reap humanity as a whole some great benifits.

Think about all the neato Oncological experiments and potential treatments that could result. not to mention ridding the world once and for all the greatest cesspool of stupid and self defeating behavior we've ever seen.

Israel is in the Middle East, correct? So yes, that was implied. Why be selective. We are not talking about picking and choosing any particular nations. Its along the lines of remove an entire region off the globe, as in Arabs and Israelis ALL have to find somewhere else to live and be bad neighbors and be the bitch of whatever host nation would be stupid enough to take their sorry asses in. If kids can't stop fighting over a toy, take the toy away from them both.

Now, Jedd. Hopefully I am just just being confused, but this bit you just said here with you being of Middle Eastern decent, perhaps representing some of the views of the opposing faction, is pretty much why there will NEVER be peace in the Middle East. No one will be happy and able to sleep at night as a good Muslim until Israel is "wiped off the face of the earth", quoted since its a common catch phrase over there. Perhaps there will be peace when either Israel gets recognized as being an unwanted neighbor but still a neighbor OR Israel is wiped off the map as promised. If Israel gets wiped out, its a good bet the whole region will get the glass parking lot treatment it so justly deserves since taking out Israel can't happen without going nuclear and nuclear war is all about tit for tat.

Israel will never be accepted as long as Israel enslaves an entire population of muslims. Indeed the result that will most likely occur will be an attack on Israel from a neighbor/neighbors, and an Israeli Nuclear response, leading to the end of the middle east.

The real story though, is who would be blamed.. My money is on the slaves in Gaza.

Israel will never be accepted as long as Israel enslaves an entire population of muslims. Indeed the result that will most likely occur will be an attack on Israel from a neighbor/neighbors, and an Israeli Nuclear response, leading to the end of the middle east.

The real story though, is who would be blamed.. My money is on the slaves in Gaza.
__________________

This an original thought, Jedd, or is this a copy paste from some Jihadist website in order to bait some kind of stupid arguement? Well, I replied to your comment so perhaps. What a load of crap. As long as people on both sides have blinders on and feel that the opposing side is the great evil then please, just continue to kill yourselves. There is no greater peace and silence then what you have in a tomb. Peace in the Middle East at last.

greatest cesspool of stupid and self defeating behavior we've ever seen.

Much closer to the truth.

I'm not sure what dream world the whole "glass the middle east" thing comes from -- regardless of whether or not it's a net benefit, there are far too many interests outside the region that will simply never stand back and let it play out in a zero sum game that kills all the problem kids. Given that even with massive WWII scale death and destruction the various populations would still survive, at some point, someone is going to have to man up and start acting adult about the situation.

I think we're all really sure that's not going to be people that are hiding in caves to avoid helicopter gunships, although we do have Gandhi as a counter example.

The Jewish response continues to surprise me - considering they themselves waged a campaign of terror against British occupation in the 30s and 40s.

Pot. Kettle. Rocket.

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/2960/israelgazatb3.jpg

Fucking Tragic all around.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/24/world/middleeast/24bethlehem.html?ref=middleeast

In answer to your title L2 I think both are correct.

I don't think any of us are qualified to answer it tbh. Not a one of us lives in an area that has to put up with incoming missiles. Where all targets are viable to those launching the rockets ( military targets as well as schools/hospitals etc).

The proper answer or reaction to these attacks? Man it's chicken or egg at best.

I can honestly see taking over the strip and being done with it. Half measures have never worked well when attempting to conquer ( make no mistake that's what's going on here) an area or populace.

I don't like the above anymore than anyone else. However if you're going to do something in all but name you are going to suffer the consequences.

I've long said plopping Israel down in that toilet of an area/peoples was a mistake and one we should never have taken a role in doing.

Mistake is made tho, putting that gasoline on top of that boiling inflamed area could only result in bigger fires.

How do you fix it, when the populace wants to live in the 14th century and carry on battles , from both sides mind, that have all but lost any real reason for said battles?

I've often said that irradiating the Middle East, including Isreal, would solve the problem, at least for the next 100,000 years. No one would want to fight over land that glows. The analogy about taking the toy from squabbling children is dead on.

I'd rather we took the "escape from New York" option rather than blow'em up.

If we wall the area off, isolate them and ignore them completely I think we'd be better off ;P

Without our interference I wonder how they'd handle their own issues.

They would turn it into a "Escape From LA" option, and surf commandos into Cyprus, I'm sure....

I think they would be just fine without our interference. They would remove their enemy Israel, fight their own wars against each other and make their own alliances. OMG just like the rest of the world!

And Sixee... Yet lets wipe this off the map and feel good about ourselves.

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/760/slide_760_14230_large.jpg

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/760/slide_760_14222_large.jpg

They are not like the rest of the world however. The religion overtones in that area of the world are much more prevelant no?

I am for hands off, no monies no help no involvement. Of course Israel would quickly decimate most of the militaries of that area and then assume goverance of the area. I doubt it would last however as the pure numbers controlled by the mulah's would eventually overwhelm Israel. Much like the hordes of zombies would overtake us all ( assuming you don't have a zombie plan in place!!)

They are not like the rest of the world however. The religion overtones in that area of the world are much more prevelant no?

I am for hands off, no monies no help no involvement. Of course Israel would quickly decimate most of the militaries of that area and then assume goverance of the area. I doubt it would last however as the pure numbers controlled by the mulah's would eventually overwhelm Israel. Much like the hordes of zombies would overtake us all ( assuming you don't have a zombie plan in place!!)

Israel would decimate nothing... Israel would probably be nuked before they reached Iran(perhaps not by Iran, but other Muslim Nuclear states?), and the whole middle east would probably blow up from Israel's Retaliatory Nukes.

What might happen though... Israel might realize it no longer had the backup of the most powerful nations in the world and actually try and make peace rather then put on a show, while killing Palestinians and expanding into their lands in private.

I'm not going to keep arguing this with you Jedd. You are obviously too biased and too ignorant of military matters.

7 day war mean anything to ya?

That was merely the tip of the iceberg. 99% of the ME military might is a joke, yes including Iran's. The cohesion and tech of Israel's military is decades ahead of any of their neighbors.

That being said they lack the boots on the ground to do more than decimate their neighbors infrastructure/bases. The locals would quickly be without power/water and would turn on themselvs shortly there after.

Stick with what you know bud, guessing from your soapbox won't get much traction on this front.

What other ME nuclear powers? Most of them lack the tech and/or materials to play such a game ( especially if we stick with the idea of all hands off and out of the game unless they live in the region ).

I wager more than a few would, given no ally support, make nice with Israel for it's better to be on the winning side than to be back in the 14th century.

I'm not going to keep arguing this with you Jedd. You are obviously too biased and too ignorant of military matters.

7 day war mean anything to ya?

That was merely the tip of the iceberg. 99% of the ME military might is a joke, yes including Iran's. The cohesion and tech of Israel's military is decades ahead of any of their neighbors.

That being said they lack the boots on the ground to do more than decimate their neighbors infrastructure/bases. The locals would quickly be without power/water and would turn on themselvs shortly there after.

Stick with what you know bud, guessing from your soapbox won't get much traction on this front.

What other ME nuclear powers? Most of them lack the tech and/or materials to play such a game ( especially if we stick with the idea of all hands off and out of the game unless they live in the region ).

I wager more than a few would, given no ally support, make nice with Israel for it's better to be on the winning side than to be back in the 14th century.

Sorry Fanny, but you are sadly mistaken.

Iran has more then enough Boots on the ground to decimate Israel with. Now take every middle eastern country, add together their air forces, ground troops of those close enough to Israel, and nuclear tech which can be carted to Iran and other countries who do have the capability to strike Israel, and you have a nuclear holocaust on Israeli soil.

Israel has a great Air Force, but they do not have the manpower or refueling capabilities to hit every single middle eastern country while also defending their land.(Not to mention Iran & other Arab states have Air Refueling capabilities as well, and can have refueling done over friendly soil, where as Israel's defenseless air refueling would have to be done over hostile territory.)

The 7 day war was a fluke. Egypt's air force never left the ground, and in true idiotic arab fashion, they left all their jets grounded in a giant parking lot basically. 75%+ of Egypt's Air Force was taken out in one strike.

Israel couldn't even handle Hezbollah with air superiority and numbers advantage on the ground. You are dreaming my friend if you think they can take on today's entire middle east.

Truly you are out of your depth Jedd. There is a big difference in destroying infrastructure and fighting a ground war with thugs with guns.

First 48 hours would be telling to be true. However the AF of the other countries would not only fail to work together but they're of much older aircraft and much poorer pilots.

No nukes would be used btw, by either side. If that were to happen it would only fuck up every country in that region. Might want to look into the trade winds in that area.

Stick with what you know, military applications not being amongst those things.

Truly you are out of your depth Jedd. There is a big difference in destroying infrastructure and fighting a ground war with thugs with guns.

First 48 hours would be telling to be true. However the AF of the other countries would not only fail to work together but they're of much older aircraft and much poorer pilots.

No nukes would be used btw, by either side. If that were to happen it would only fuck up every country in that region. Might want to look into the trade winds in that area.

Stick with what you know, military applications not being amongst those things.

Hey genius... Israel can barely reach half of Iran without Air Refueling, yet you completely ignored that gem and spouted nonsense.

How could Israel's air force hit every Middle eastern country?

You are so ignorant sometimes Fandros... Israel demolished Lebanon's infrastructure and then sent in ground troops and got spanked, and forced to run back to Israel with their tails tucked between their legs. INFRASTRUCTURE INFRASTRUCTURE OMG JEDD WHY DON'T YOU GET IT!!!

The balistic missiles + air forces + ground forces of every middle eastern country, including Hezbollah and Hamas, would decimate Israel. Any other assessment is ridiculous. Sure they would take millions of casualties in the process, but they would in the end destroy the country that is itself 1/3rd the size of California.

Tactics and specifics aside, if the world (read: us) stopped propping Israel up, they would certainly be crushed within a decade.

Oh I agree San and clearly said so. Jedd in his usual manner continued with his usual bullshit of OMG IRAN R SO TOUGH.

He keeps crying about Israel's lack of air refueling. He's completely wrong so I ignored it.

Israel would win out initially but in the end the religious zombies pure numbers would roll over them.

Was a mistake to put Israel down amongst the savage self loathing area.

We need to get our hands out of the area, if only we could be sure China and Russia would keep from propping up the likes of Iran at the same time.

Oh I agree San and clearly said so. Jedd in his usual manner continued with his usual bullshit of OMG IRAN R SO TOUGH.

He keeps crying about Israel's lack of air refueling. He's completely wrong so I ignored it.

Israel would win out initially but in the end the religious zombies pure numbers would roll over them.

Was a mistake to put Israel down amongst the savage self loathing area.

We need to get our hands out of the area, if only we could be sure China and Russia would keep from propping up the likes of Iran at the same time.

Hey Military god...

How can Israel Air Refuel to hit middle eastern countries further away then Iraq? Air Refuel Tankers do not have defenses, they are planes with fuel. How can they deploy one over enemy air space, keep it secure, use it to refuel, and still defend their own borders.

I am not talking about Iran being so tough you ignoramus, I am speaking of the outcome of a hypothetical situation, which would end in the complete decimation of the Jewish state.

The tankers would be destroyed and Israel only has 5-6 of them.

LMAO as usual when confronted you resort to insults and attacks. You've shown time and again you lack the ability to think and debate past your speaking points without resorting to insults.

Yes , air refueling aircraft have never been used over enemy airspace. Iran wouldn't suffer the same limitations at all with older equipment and lesser trained pilots. (sarcasm btw)

Nope, they don't realize that and refuel in a safer arena....

Stick to what you know, at this junction it appears to be kitchen redesign.

Enjoy.

LMAO as usual when confronted you resort to insults and attacks. You've shown time and again you lack the ability to think and debate past your speaking points without resorting to insults.

Yes , air refueling aircraft have never been used over enemy airspace. Iran wouldn't suffer the same limitations at all with older equipment and lesser trained pilots. (sarcasm btw)

Nope, they don't realize that and refuel in a safer arena....

Stick to what you know, at this junction it appears to be kitchen redesign.

Enjoy.

Wow Fandros...

I find your lack of knowledge of the area astounding. There are no safer areas to refuel in the middle east as it would be the entire middle east against Israel. This is not a debate of Iran vs Israel, this is the Middle East's Muslim nations against Israel.

You also fail to explain how they can defend their borders while extending their air force so thin with air strikes around the entire middle east.

You are spouting nonsense and proving that maybe you should stick to repairing aircraft instead of telling us how they can be deployed.

Shhhh Jedd get back to hammering out that sink!!

This is all a lark based on a supposition I made early on. Per usual you chimed in with "everyone against Israel" and I deny that claim. I think rough times would make for strange bedfellows.

I hate what's going on over there and I decry the decision made decades ago to place Israel. It's ugly ugly ugly at it's worst and I wish and pray that there was an answer to this bullshit.

I wish we could pull Israel out of there, place them in some unoccupied land ( south american or some such) and be done with it.

Then we could watch the famed solidarity of the ME to be shown as a joke. Watch them tear themselves apart and keep our kids out of the conflict.

Well Jedd, as our resident Islamic nut job you have pretty much proven to all us infidels what we already knew:

The Middle East is a complete waste of time. Fuck em three times over. Eat shit and go bark at the moon.

The only reason why anyone even gives even remotely an iota of a damn is the lake of petroleum that fate (and geology) just so happened to hide under the sand. You have also, at the same time made one of the strongest positive positions, be it by proxy, for green energy, alternate fuels and energy conservation. So how about we have our discussion about that? Cool stuff like wind power, solar, 100 miles to the gallon cars, hydrogen fuel and even just turning the lights off when you exit a room since this thread is as much of a waste as thinking that "Middle East" and "Peace" can synonymous.

Honestly, I'm sure the "let's just nuke them all" statements are meant as mere humour, but really it's the dumbest fucking thing people post on this forum - and they've been doing it since I came here eight years ago.

I'm definately not of the mindset that ascribes to nuk'em till they glow. Even Jedd likes the idea of applying nukes in the area for some odd reason it's a great answer to the thorn that Israel is to him.

We need to find a way to remove them from the status of important. They do nothing and are nothing to the world other than "oil" and of course a source of irritants.

The need to go green will definately be helpful in removing their important status. I think we need to take it further tho and remove all inflowing monies to the area.

Jedd.

You are right in the fact that Israel cannot launch an offensive against all of the Arab countries and win.

But no ME force, combined or otherwise, has a snowballs chance in hell of invading Israel. This isnt Tekken or Street Fighter 4. Military's are designed with a specific purpose. Israel is a pure defensive one. Their entire population, men and women, have military training and immediate access to high quality military weaponry. Can you imagine trying to put troops on Israeli soil? No military in the would could do it. Not even the US.

Israel is a modern day Masada, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masada) but with MUCH better technology, training, support, intelligence, preparation, tradition and weaponry.

I didn't see any pictures of the 2 girls that were killed by the Hezbollah rockets in your photo managarie, Jedd.

Bias, much?

Jedd.

You are right in the fact that Israel cannot launch an offensive against all of the Arab countries and win.

But no ME force, combined or otherwise, has a snowballs chance in hell of invading Israel. This isnt Tekken or Street Fighter 4. Military's are designed with a specific purpose. Israel is a pure defensive one. Their entire population, men and women, have military training and immediate access to high quality military weaponry. Can you imagine trying to put troops on Israeli soil? No military in the would could do it. Not even the US.

Israel is a modern day Masada, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masada) but with MUCH better technology, training, support, intelligence, preparation, tradition and weaponry.

The most Israel would do would to launch a series of air strikes aimed at removing the other countries ability to successfully project their power.

Much like they did when they hit Iran not so many years ago and than got out without a scratch.

They wouldn't dream of putting boots on the ground. As I stated earlier they lack the manpower to do so.

I didn't see any pictures of the 2 girls that were killed by the rockets in your photo managarie, Jedd.

Bias, much?

2 girls were not killed... An adult male was and an Arab construction worker who was also Israeli.

The most Israel would do would to launch a series of air strikes aimed at removing the other countries ability to successfully project their power.

Much like they did when they hit Iran not so many years ago and than got out without a scratch.

They wouldn't dream of putting boots on the ground. As I stated earlier they lack the manpower to do so.

Israel hit Iran? what are you smoking?

Jedd.

You are right in the fact that Israel cannot launch an offensive against all of the Arab countries and win.

But no ME force, combined or otherwise, has a snowballs chance in hell of invading Israel. This isnt Tekken or Street Fighter 4. Military's are designed with a specific purpose. Israel is a pure defensive one. Their entire population, men and women, have military training and immediate access to high quality military weaponry. Can you imagine trying to put troops on Israeli soil? No military in the would could do it. Not even the US.

Israel is a modern day Masada, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masada) but with MUCH better technology, training, support, intelligence, preparation, tradition and weaponry.

If they were to invade as we do and worry about civilians, then you are 100% correct, however I doubt that the ME invading force would care, and razing the whole country to the ground would be an option.

Once again, this is all hypothetical, people are getting all riled up over a hypothetical debate.

To Lummus:

You know whats easier then just nuking a whole region, or walking away from it completely. It is engaging the region with unbiased goals, and working for true peace.

As long as our goals are what is best for Israel, and not Peace in the region, we will achieve nothing but angering Israel's enemies, and creating more terrorists to give us more 9/11's

In somewhat related news...
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-12/30/content_10577839.htm

Ahhh my bad was Iraq not Iran. Sorry about that, tho there is lil difference in the process they would use on Iran should they need to.

L2 pointed out quite clearly why an attack on Israel would fail Jedd. I'll go one step further.

There is no cohesion between the ME countries that would lead to such a successful front as you attempt to point out.

Doesn't exist, won't exist and is merely a symptom of your tortured illusions.

Oh, and you are the only one showing signs of getting "riled" up.

http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/howtomakewar/databases/armies/m.asp

Funny how Israel is at the top of this list....

Ahhh my bad was Iraq not Iran. Sorry about that, tho there is lil difference in the process they would use on Iran should they need to.

L2 pointed out quite clearly why an attack on Israel would fail Jedd. I'll go one step further.

There is no cohesion between the ME countries that would lead to such a successful front as you attempt to point out.

Doesn't exist, won't exist and is merely a symptom of your tortured illusions.

Oh, and you are the only one showing signs of getting "riled" up.

Who said the attack would be tomorrow... This is hypothetical Fandros, the hypothetical was that the west would just stay out of the ME. But if we were talking about right now I would agree that Israel would be devastated but not invaded.

However, Israel would be a shell of what it is today if in fact it was attacked by the whole of the Middle East, without the power of being the only side of the conflict with the nuclear card.

You keep acting as though the rest of the ME are in step. They aren't and have never been so.

You're also acting as though every ME country shares your seemingly blind irrational racist attitude. They don't , some are becoming more secular and would act in their best interests to assure they are in a position to live on. It is not irrational to think that one or two of the ME power houses might either stay out of it or indeed join in on the side of Israel due to their own hatred and distrust of Iran and Syria.

http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/howtomakewar/databases/armies/m.asp

Funny how Israel is at the top of this list....

Funny how Egypt, Iran, and Syria are 2nd 3rd and 4th?

What does that prove?

You keep acting as though the rest of the ME are in step. They aren't and have never been so.

You're also acting as though every ME country shares your seemingly blind irrational racist attitude. They don't , some are becoming more secular and would act in their best interests to assure they are in a position to live on. It is not irrational to think that one or two of the ME power houses might either stay out of it or indeed join in on the side of Israel due to their own hatred and distrust of Iran and Syria.

Those countries will have civil wars and coups, as their population is firmly in step with the rest of the ME... The unification is quite possible.

I am not racist, don't know where you got that from.

Those countries will have civil wars and coups, as their population is firmly in step with the rest of the ME... The unification is quite possible.

I am not racist, don't know where you got that from.

The former is one of the biggest lies you've ever tried to pass on as fact.

The latter is evident from the frothing at the mouth you do whenever Israel is mentioned ;P

Plenty of people have already said that Israel can take care of it self just fine without foreign intervention. I would love nothing more for the US and other supporters of Israel to say "you are on your own". Granted that might make the region explode into a complete chaos of conflict. Also you seem to have implied earlier that the Middle East would be better with Israel removed. Since asking them to just politely leave is probably out of the question, it begs to be asked how removing them by force would some how be a positive for anyone.

unbiased goals, and working for true peace.

How in the FUCK can you even post that after all the crap you have said earlier here? That seems like a first attempt at a serious comment but all your other bullshit negated it. Your idea of TRUE PEACE is NO MORE ISRAEL. Made it crystal clear. I may have made some vastly stupid statements about the glass parking lot bit just to crack a few stupid jokes in a stupid thread, but damn. Unbiased my ass. I will tell you what is unbiased. Work it out between your SELVES. I wasn't implying that Israel and Muslims/Arabs walk away. Just everyone else. Figure it out without some other nation forcing peace talks upon the reluctant. Sit down at a table and talk peace because you want it. Funny thing is that really hasn't happened yet because Muslims/Arabs don't want peace with Israel and Israel has been backed into a corner too many times to back down. Heck most only want stability in the region so expensive fuels don't cripple the planet's economy otherwise /shrug on peace. People want green energy not because it will save a whale or whatever. Its a way out of funneling trillions into the pockets of nut jobs either in fuel profits or in buy offs to keep the peace. People kill each other every day in Africa in greater numbers and yet most folks couldn't care less because Africa has little to offer that impacts the world as a whole.

Funny how Egypt, Iran, and Syria are 2nd 3rd and 4th?

What does that prove?

It proves that you have to add up all the top players (including Iraq) under Israel, up to #10 before you come even close to Israel's projected ground strength.

In air combat is the only place where they might be beaten. And that's only if Egypt and Syria cooperated.

It proves that you have to add up all the top players (including Iraq) under Israel, up to #10 before you come even close to Israel's projected ground strength.

In air combat is the only place where they might be beaten. And that's only if Egypt and Syria cooperated.

It doesn't prove that at all... That takes into account Israel's civilian trained population, but I betcha it doesn't take into account Iran's, which numbers between 8-10 million.

The former is one of the biggest lies you've ever tried to pass on as fact.

The latter is evident from the frothing at the mouth you do whenever Israel is mentioned ;P

Turn on something other then CNN and watch the protests in countries that are neutral or allies with Israel that are middle eastern.

Sorry if I hate the blatant occupation, imporsonment and murder of an entire civilian population. It's not racism, it's anger.

Plenty of people have already said that Israel can take care of it self just fine without foreign intervention. I would love nothing more for the US and other supporters of Israel to say "you are on your own". Granted that might make the region explode into a complete chaos of conflict. Also you seem to have implied earlier that the Middle East would be better with Israel removed. Since asking them to just politely leave is probably out of the question, it begs to be asked how removing them by force would some how be a positive for anyone.



How in the FUCK can you even post that after all the crap you have said earlier here? That seems like a first attempt at a serious comment but all your other bullshit negated it. Your idea of TRUE PEACE is NO MORE ISRAEL. Made it crystal clear. I may have made some vastly stupid statements about the glass parking lot bit just to crack a few stupid jokes in a stupid thread, but damn. Unbiased my ass. I will tell you what is unbiased. Work it out between your SELVES. I wasn't implying that Israel and Muslims/Arabs walk away. Just everyone else. Figure it out without some other nation forcing peace talks upon the reluctant. Sit down at a table and talk peace because you want it. Funny thing is that really hasn't happened yet because Muslims/Arabs don't want peace with Israel and Israel has been backed into a corner too many times to back down. Heck most only want stability in the region so expensive fuels don't cripple the planet's economy otherwise /shrug on peace. People want green energy not because it will save a whale or whatever. Its a way out of funneling trillions into the pockets of nut jobs either in fuel profits or in buy offs to keep the peace. People kill each other every day in Africa in greater numbers and yet most folks couldn't care less because Africa has little to offer that impacts the world as a whole.

This requires a much longer response then I can type out at this time... Fear not, I will respond.

Turn on something other then CNN and watch the protests in countries that are neutral or allies with Israel that are middle eastern.

Sorry if I hate the blatant occupation, imporsonment and murder of an entire civilian population. It's not racism, it's anger.


If it wasn't for Israel those same folks would find other reasons to rage. It's thier nature and sadly ingrained in them to help keep them under the heels of their religion.

It doesn't prove that at all... That takes into account Israel's civilian trained population, but I betcha it doesn't take into account Iran's, which numbers between 8-10 million.

Sure of one and not of the other. Typical propaganda as spoken out of the mouth of the LA mulah!

Does it take into account that in the end the vast differences in the Arabic and Persian cultures will probably result in Iran fighting the Arab countries also?

Does it take into account that IMI makes some really neat weapons of their own and that the Israeli F-15's have huge stockpiles of spare parts unlike Iran which has some antiquated F-14's that barely fly and the technology on them is from the mid 70's?

Does it take into account that the Israelis are no strangers to guerrilla tactics and can quite comfortably blend into the surrounding environs and wage a guerrilla war probably more effectively than anyone else in that region?

Does it take into account that back during the PLO days in Lebanon the Syrian AF took on the Israeli AF and got completely waxed in the air?

Does it take into account that Israel would not entertain the idea of attacking Iran with ground forces?

It should also take into account that by keeping the Palestinians in Gaza pinned down, poor and hopeless does nothing but help Hamas.

Sure of one and not of the other. Typical propaganda as spoken out of the mouth of the LA mulah!

What are you even talking about... did you see 8 million reserve ground troops in that list? That is already more then Israel's population just in case you didn't know. Yes I am sure that list did not show those numbers.

If it wasn't for Israel those same folks would find other reasons to rage. It's thier nature and sadly ingrained in them to help keep them under the heels of their religion.

Yes cause they are obviously animals and not anywhere near your intelligence as a human.

Nowhere did I indicate they were animals. I did however imply that the control of their religion is such to force them into actions most would consider inhumane.

That you cannot dispute, but go ahead and attempt to redefine my post to better suit your mentality.

Yes cause they are obviously animals and not anywhere near your intelligence as a human.
Jed you still in the anal stage?

Man the body count keeps climbing ;(

This is definately a lose/lose situation for either side I fear.

Man the body count keeps climbing ;(

This is definately a lose/lose situation for either side I fear.

It's win for Israel, Hamas extremination is warranted.

It's win for Israel, Hamas extremination is warranted.

There is no way in hell they could "extremination" Hamas with military strikes.

Doesn't work that way, can't work that way and in the end it's just idle bloodshed on either side.

There is no way in hell they could "extremination" Hamas with military strikes.

Doesn't work that way, can't work that way and in the end it's just idle bloodshed on either side.
They need to send the army in and end this once and for all, Every Hamas member who is known must be killed, and retabution for Israeli soldier death.

How do you think we squashed hitler's werewolves after WWII?

Elren...shut the f u c k up

This is not WWII and these are not Germans.

It's an entirely different world and mindset. Taking the actions you suggest would only spawn more of the same.

I understand Israel's exaustion over the status quo but there will be no "victory" using the tactics being employed now.

This is not WWII and these are not Germans.

It's an entirely different world and mindset. Taking the actions you suggest would only spawn more of the same.

I understand Israel's exaustion over the status quo but there will be no "victory" using the tactics being employed now.
The Hamas party is very simuliar to the Nazi party, both seek the destruction of the Jewish people.

You can't reason with a thug and murders, you can only kill them, thats the only thing they understand.

Elren...shut the f u c k up

Rover is the name of my dog, you want to come over and play with him rover-bend-over?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf

There is only a semblance on paper. They were never effective nor were they as bought in as Hamas is.

False comparison and as such your call for a similiar action won't work

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf

There is only a semblance on paper. They were never effective nor were they as bought in as Hamas is.

False comparison and as such your call for a similiar action won't work
From the same page you quoted.....

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Werwolf&action=edit&section=6)] Allied reaction and reprisals

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Question_book-new.svg)
This article or section relies largely or entirely upon a single source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CITE).
Please help improve this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Werwolf&action=edit) by introducing appropriate citations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CITE) of additional sources. (December 2008)
According to Biddiscombe's research, in April 1945 General Eisenhower ordered that all partisans were to be shot.[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf#cite_note-23) As a consequence, some war crimes (summary executions without trial and the like) followed. Contrary to the Hague rules of War (1907) the SHAEF "counter insurgency manual" included provisions for forced labour and hostage taking.[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf#cite_note-24)

At Seedorf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seedorf)[disambiguation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Disambiguation/Fixing_links)] UK forces randomly selected and burned 2 cottages on April 21.[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf#cite_note-25)
At the town of Sogel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogel) the Canadian first Army evacuated the civilians from the city center whereupon it was systematically demolished.[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf#cite_note-26)
In 1945, it is believed that Canadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian) forces set civilian houses and a church on fire in reprisal for the death of the unit's commanding officer in battle. Maj.-Gen. Christopher Vokes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Vokes), commanding the 4th Canadian (Armoured) Division (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_Canadian_(Armoured)_Division) ordered the town to be destroyed. "We used the rubble to make traversable roads for our tanks," Vokes wrote later.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf#cite_note-27)
Unless the citizens of the city of Stuppach (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stuppach&action=edit&redlink=1) within 3 hours produced the German officer that the U.S. forces believed was hiding there they were informed that: all male inhabitants would be shot, women and children expelled to the surrounding wilderness and the city razed.[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf#cite_note-B259-28)
U.S. combat troops destroyed the town of Bruchsal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruchsal), in retaliation for SS activities.[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf#cite_note-B259-28)
At the city of Constance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constance) in the French occupation zone in mid-May 400 hostages were taken, two persons who resisted French orders had been shot, part of the city evacuated and threats were made to burn the evacuated part down.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]
French forces expelled more than 25,000 civilians from their homes. Some of them were then forced to clear minefields in Alsace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace).[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf#cite_note-29)
Killing of hostages by the French took place amongst others in Markdorf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markdorf) and Reutlingen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reutlingen).[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]
The city of Lichtental (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichtental) was pillaged and the female population raped by the French.[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf#cite_note-30)
Jarmin (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jarmin&action=edit&redlink=1) was demolished by Soviet troops. [32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf#cite_note-B270-31)
At the town of Schivelbein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schivelbein) all men were shot and all women and girls raped by Soviet troops. [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf#cite_note-biddis-0)[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf#cite_note-B270-31)
Due to harsh repression such as that, the German resistance movement was successfully suppressed.[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf#cite_note-32) However, collective punishment for acts of resistance, such as fines and curfews, was still being imposed as late as 1948.[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf#cite_note-33)
Biddiscombe estimates the total death toll as a direct result of Werewolf actions and the resulting reprisals as 3,000–5,000.[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf#cite_note-34)

Seems liked it worked to me.

You really need to read the entire article. It clearly says they were never a threat , due to lack of morale ( something Hamas doesn't lack) , gear and coordination.

Don't pick and chose when the entire link clearly says they weren't a credible threat.

You really need to read the entire article. It clearly says they were never a threat , due to lack of morale ( something Hamas doesn't lack) , gear and coordination.

Don't pick and chose when the entire link clearly says they weren't a credible threat.
I am not arguing wether or not they were a major threat.

But rather the tatics used by the allies to supress resistance worked, looking at the the wiki page, it states that it was effective.

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/12/29/1726211.aspx

Interesting article.

And no, for the 1,000 time ( since your suggestion has been brought up before) you cannot simply go in and kill Hamas.

It's much more complicated than that Elren.

Does it take into account that in the end the vast differences in the Arabic and Persian cultures will probably result in Iran fighting the Arab countries also?

Does it take into account that IMI makes some really neat weapons of their own and that the Israeli F-15's have huge stockpiles of spare parts unlike Iran which has some antiquated F-14's that barely fly and the technology on them is from the mid 70's?

Does it take into account that the Israelis are no strangers to guerrilla tactics and can quite comfortably blend into the surrounding environs and wage a guerrilla war probably more effectively than anyone else in that region?

Does it take into account that back during the PLO days in Lebanon the Syrian AF took on the Israeli AF and got completely waxed in the air?

Does it take into account that Israel would not entertain the idea of attacking Iran with ground forces?

It should also take into account that by keeping the Palestinians in Gaza pinned down, poor and hopeless does nothing but help Hamas.

Yes there are vast differenced in persian and arabic culture, but the one true thing holding them together is their anger and hatred of Israel.

Besides this was a hypthetical involving more then just Iran, and I know I speak of Iran a lot but minimizing my argument to Iran only obviously hurts my argument.

Rover is the name of my dog, you want to come over and play with him rover-bend-over?

HAHAHA HAHAHA...hahaha...haha.....ha OMFG you are so original....HAHAHAhahaha...ha.... asshole

Yes there are vast differenced in persian and arabic culture, but the one true thing holding them together is their anger and hatred of Israel.

Besides this was a hypthetical involving more then just Iran, and I know I speak of Iran a lot but minimizing my argument to Iran only obviously hurts my argument.

And with Israel gone they can then hate each other!

And with Israel gone they can then hate each other!

They may, or they may not... even if they do however it won't be due to one of them occupying and murdering muslims. They won't need to fight over land.

They may, or they may not... even if they do however it won't be due to one of them occupying and murdering muslims. They won't need to fight over land.

Yes it could be something like in Iraq where the Sunni and Shia weren't murdering each other at least not over land...they didn't murder each other over just religious sect differences.

Turn on something other then CNN and watch the protests in countries that are neutral or allies with Israel that are middle eastern.

Sorry if I hate the blatant occupation, imporsonment and murder of an entire civilian population. It's not racism, it's anger.


You have been spouting a lot of silly shit in this thread, but please tell me about the blatant murder of an entire civilian population. I would love to hear this fairy tale.
While I agree with some of what you say, you are as Fandros said out of your depth discussing military aspects of this "conflict", and would be best left looking at the philosophical areas that you may have something worthwhile to contribute.

Israel and the rest of the region will never have peace as long as religion rules the dialog rather than common sense.

An interesting take on the Gaza/Israel-Hamas conflict, from the major German news daily, Der Spiegel:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,598656,00.html

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,598640,00.html

(the latter contains excerpts from several other German publications)

While Berlin has had what it calls a 'special relationship' with Israel for some time, there is a sense from the general population on both sides of the Israeli/Palestinian border, that the failure to renew the cease-fire, rocket fire, and resulting Israeli bombing *is* the result of a calculated strategy on the part of Hamas to escalate the conflict, as Hamas has little reason to exist without it. A big chunk of their raison d'etre (and public support) was eroded when Israel decided to engage politically with Fatah last year, and while I think that Israel's reaction in this case is counterproductive (for Israel, it's *great* for Hamas' goal of producing more video of martyred Palestinians that they utterly failed to care about properly governing in the first place), it's also pretty clear that Hamas wasn't going to stop the rocket fire under any circumstances and that the Israeli citizenry was demanding action (see Sanchek's paste).

The operative question, it seems, at this point, is whether Israel is going to be able to keep public opinion among their own Arab population and the more moderate Palestinian factions relatively neutral in the face of their own escalating operation. If they are going to continue military action (and I think this conflict/cease-fire would be much better mediated by the international community), it needs to go hand in hand with continued negotiation with Fatah and Hamas and assurances (and actions that match those assurances) that they have clearly defined and specific goals that do not involve punitive actions against the Palestinian *people*. While I feel for the Palestinian people and their plight, and recognize the suffering created by Israel's policy of isolation, it's equally, if not more, tragic that the Palestinian people continue to be cynically used as pawns by an extremist group that has no interest in actually constructively addressing their problems.

Regards,
Nydia

One more bit to add to this, from Der Spiegel:

The Palestinians themselves also seem split on how to react to the Gaza Strip raids. An aide to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said that Abbas "demands that the Israeli government stop this aggression immediately." But on Sunday in Egypt, he also seemed to place some of the blame with Hamas. "We talked to them (Hamas) and we told them 'please, we ask you, do not end the truce. Let the truce continue and not stop' so that we could have avoided what happened," Abbas said on Sunday in Cairo during a visit for talks with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.

Egypt has been trying to broker negotiations between Hamas and Fatah, which has had no power in the Gaza Strip since Hamas violently wrested it away from them last summer, but with little success. Israel is walking a knife-edge with this action, and I hope that someone starts talking again soon...

Regards,
Nydia

One more bit to add to this, from Der Spiegel:



Egypt has been trying to broker negotiations between Hamas and Fatah, which has had no power in the Gaza Strip since Hamas violently wrested it away from them last summer, but with little success. Israel is walking a knife-edge with this action, and I hope that someone starts talking again soon...

Regards,
Nydia
Talking to the new Nazi Party will do about as much good as that worthless peice of paper Neither Chamberland waved around in 1939!

LOL Hamas doesn't hate Jews living in America or those in Iran, they hate Israelis. That makes them Nazi's???

Your insane!

LOL Hamas doesn't hate Jews living in America or those in Iran, they hate Israelis. That makes them Nazi's???

Your insane!
Your a moron if you think they would not slit any jews throught they came accross. I have watched the videos they show their children, have you?

Your a moron if you think they would not slit any jews throught they came accross. I have watched the videos they show their children, have you?

You think a hamas member walking through new york would slit a jews throat?

You think a hamas member walking through new york would slit a jews throat?
After Israel is dead first?
In a new York minute.

After Israel is dead first?
In a new York minute.

I think your wrong, but we can agree to disagree.

I think your wrong, but we can agree to disagree.
Do you also think if your just nice to Bin Laden he will be reasonable?

Do you also think if your just nice to Bin Laden he will be reasonable?

Nope

All I know is if some Native American's were shooting rockets at me from Oregon, I would not give a hot mad fuck what their reason is, I would bomb the fuck out of them.

I personally do not believe that the Arab nations surrounding Israel will ever have any kind of peace with them, at least while they continue to let radicals like the hamas fire rockets.

1 other thing. The nice benifit of everyone in Israel having mandatory military training is drafting ready made soldiers. That is a very potent ability.

If you scroll the pages really fast, everything in this thread blurs together, save for a few posts. One page starts to sound like every other argument. Good insight as usual from Nydia.Honestly, I'm sure the "let's just nuke them all" statements are meant as mere humour, but really it's the dumbest fucking thing people post on this forum - and they've been doing it since I came here eight years ago.Although cheesy, this song suddenly comes to mind:

"Russians" - Sting

In Europe and America, there's a growing feeling of hysteria
Conditioned to respond to all the threats
In the rhetorical speeches of the Soviets
Mr. Krushchev said we will bury you
I don't subscribe to this point of view
It would be such an ignorant thing to do
If the Russians love their children too

How can I save my little boy from Oppenheimer's deadly toy
There is no monopoly in common sense
On either side of the political fence
We share the same biology
Regardless of ideology
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their children too

There is no historical precedent
To put the words in the mouth of the President
There's no such thing as a winnable war
It's a lie that we don't believe anymore
Mr. Reagan says we will protect you
I don't subscribe to this point of view
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their children too

We share the same biology
Regardless of ideology
What might save us, me, and you
Is if the Russians love their children too

If you scroll the pages really fast, everything in this thread blurs together, save for a few posts. One page starts to sound like every other argument. Good insight as usual from Nydia.Although cheesy, this song suddenly comes to mind:

"Russians" - Sting

In Europe and America, there's a growing feeling of hysteria
Conditioned to respond to all the threats
In the rhetorical speeches of the Soviets
Mr. Krushchev said we will bury you
I don't subscribe to this point of view
It would be such an ignorant thing to do
If the Russians love their children too

How can I save my little boy from Oppenheimer's deadly toy
There is no monopoly in common sense
On either side of the political fence
We share the same biology
Regardless of ideology
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their children too

There is no historical precedent
To put the words in the mouth of the President
There's no such thing as a winnable war
It's a lie that we don't believe anymore
Mr. Reagan says we will protect you
I don't subscribe to this point of view
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their children too

We share the same biology
Regardless of ideology
What might save us, me, and you
Is if the Russians love their children too

Somehow, I have never seen or heard that song before; powerful lyrics. Thanks for sharing that. It sums up nicely the solution to most conflicts; if you love your children, you will seek an option that best promotes their ability to thrive.

If Israel was gone, they would just go back to killing each other. Theres been war in that region since the dawn of time.

When I was in the Marine Corp we used to sing a song about Russia, it went something like this if I recall correctly:

If I die on the Russian front bury me in a Russian....nm

All I know is if some Native American's were shooting rockets at me from Oregon, I would not give a hot mad fuck what their reason is, I would bomb the fuck out of them.

I personally do not believe that the Arab nations surrounding Israel will ever have any kind of peace with them, at least while they continue to let radicals like the hamas fire rockets.

1 other thing. The nice benifit of everyone in Israel having mandatory military training is drafting ready made soldiers. That is a very potent ability.
Thats a good point.

How many here that suport the palestinians would also suport the native americans by giving your land back?

If you say you support the palistinian but don't give back the land your relative stole, why do you demand other do what you will not do your self?

Don't you find that hipocitical?

If Israel was gone, they would just go back to killing each other. Theres been war in that region since the dawn of time.
Your wrong about that, Israel is the little satan, You wanna guess who the Big Satan is?

I'll give you a hint, go look in the mirror!:D

Perhaps im wrong if Elren agree's with me. I need to go back and re think this. :)

*sigh* I always miss all the fun. These threads move too fast for old wardogs like myself.
I'm guessing Elrenz is the new Momento, Wayfarer, Yoghurt, Crist0, Jedd (no offense)?? But with even worse spelling?

Anywho - I wouldn't rule out a ground assault by Israeli armour. It is currently deployed in a surrounding formation, and they have the ability to take the offensive, even to an extensive level, for those who believe Israel is only a defensive state, that just isn't true (see: 1956-67).

There is a sense over there (if one read's the reports) of finality in Israeli efforts; talks of a long campaign; preperation for a momentous effort. This isn't mere airstrikes aimed at reducing Hamas capability - indeed I wouldn't at all rule out an Israeli occupation of the West Bank in the coming weeks.

And please - PLEASE - do not link Wikipedia articles, they are horrendously misleading and riddled with inaccuracy.

Oh, and comparison to the Nazi's? What are you, fucking twelve?

Edit: Good link for evidence of a war to end the situation: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7804113.stm

I'll throw out the theory that the Arab countries want war in Gaza to help bring up the price of oil and oddly enough the interests of the American oil companies are also served with higher prices. The middle east is about oil..otherwise we have no reason to be there as supporters of Israel, but oh wait...that biblical prophecy thing where the christians need to kill the jews in the end or jesus won't like them.

I think the Bible records the first conflict in the region when Cain slew Able....
Hasen't gotten much better since then....although historically there were other conflicts before Christianity reared its head. While the Bible shouldn't be taken literally, there are lessons to be learned. There will always be conflict if there is more than 1 human present.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKTRE4BT2K720081230

Wow...Guess Iran is trying to take a neutral stance with regards to this conflict and charge Israel with war crimes. They've even offered to hold the trials in Iran and judge Israel officials in abstentia.

lmao where was this "kangaroo" court when the rockets were flying into Israel?

Typical bullshit, meant to provoke more conflict ;(

I just don't get you guys... Throughout the USA's existence, how many years have we been at war or at war by proxy with another country?

How about other countriess you deem civilized? What is their history?

I find this argument the pot calling the kettle black.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKTRE4BT2K720081230

Wow...Guess Iran is trying to take a neutral stance with regards to this conflict and charge Israel with war crimes. They've even offered to hold the trials in Iran and judge Israel officials in abstentia.

lmao where was this "kangaroo" court when the rockets were flying into Israel?

Typical bullshit, meant to provoke more conflict ;(

As was discussed at the beginning of this thread, Israel breaks ceasefires and then uses the excuse of the Hamas rocket counter attacks as permission to go apeshit on the people of gaza.

What would you rather Iran do, send suicide bombers into Israel? Would anything they do make your blatantly biased self happy?

Please Jedd if there's been anyone that's opinion has been waved off due to your insane bias and blatant racism it's you.

I've clearly said I think this is a horrible series of events. However even Fatah leaders are blaming Hamas for this latest round of escalation. Other ME leaders are blaming Hamas as well.

Where do you see this being only Israel's fault? Oh wait I throw the answer back to my opening statement on this post.

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/12/29/1726211.aspx

Please Jedd if there's been anyone that's opinion has been waved off due to your insane bias and blatant racism it's you.

I've clearly said I think this is a horrible series of events. However even Fatah leaders are blaming Hamas for this latest round of escalation. Other ME leaders are blaming Hamas as well.

Where do you see this being only Israel's fault? Oh wait I throw the answer back to my opening statement on this post.

First of all, seeing as how I am Iranian and American, I am least bias of all of you.

Second, you got your answer, that Israel breaks the ceasefires time and time again.

You also once agan ignored my statement because you had no answer.

'First of all, seeing as how I am Iranian and American, I am least bias of all of you.'

- HAHAHAHAHAHA.


Hahah.

Oh for Pete's sake quit waving around your mixed ancestery. It doesn't prevent your obvious bias. We all see it, we've all called you on it and by gods it's never been a block to any other bias in man's past.

You say they break the cease fire. Then ignore the constant rocket fire into Israel that even Fatah and other leaders had asked to be stopped to avoid this exact scenario.

Israel pulled settlements out , only to have those same areas used to launch rocket fire into Israel. You know , I think that can be seen as a mistake. There is no indication those kooks ever wanted peace. They merely want more land to continue attacking Israel. Of course to you that's just fine isn't it?

You are as racist as poor Archie Bunker, the character, was. Thing is you are in denial and expect us to support your delusions. We're not going to.

'First of all, seeing as how I am Iranian and American, I am least bias of all of you.'

- HAHAHAHAHAHA.


Hahah.

It should be apparent by how often someone here gets pissed by what I say and how often they agree.

No bub, that's not a good supporting arguement.

We get pissed at you for exactly this type of bullshit you try to sell to us.

You play the Mouthpiece of Iran from LA and expect us to swallow your bullshit.

We don't, now at least be an adult and be honest about your opinions. Don't expect us to buy into the crap you're selling.

Both Hamas and Israel are at fault in this conflict. Though I think the actual aggressive act of firing rockets into Israel was really begging for action from Israel.

Oh for Pete's sake quit waving around your mixed ancestery. It doesn't prevent your obvious bias. We all see it, we've all called you on it and by gods it's never been a block to any other bias in man's past.

You say they break the cease fire. Then ignore the constant rocket fire into Israel that even Fatah and other leaders had asked to be stopped to avoid this exact scenario.

Israel pulled settlements out , only to have those same areas used to launch rocket fire into Israel. You know , I think that can be seen as a mistake. There is no indication those kooks ever wanted peace. They merely want more land to continue attacking Israel. Of course to you that's just fine isn't it?

You are as racist as poor Archie Bunker, the character, was. Thing is you are in denial and expect us to support your delusions. We're not going to.

The only kook here is you, as once again your flag waving idiocy somehow makes me bias. Your simple insistence that they are all kooks and basically animals proves your bias. Find a similar statement from me about anyone if you can.

Israel just like this time makes a ceasefire deal and then breaks it with precision airstrikes which then leads to rocket fire in return, which leads to shit like what's happenng now.

You still are avoiding answering my post about our own past regarding war... Why is that?

Years ago I took a stand on these forums against the war in Iraq and I was called a terrorist, insulted, and banned. Today everything I said is echoed by half the board,

Today's percieved bias will once again be tomorrow's differing viewpoint that may end up being correct again. You seem to find yourself on the wrong side of the argument yet again.

60 days of continual rocket fire into Israel is being ignored by you. I'm sorry this invalidates anything you are trying to claim and shows how you are toting Iran's agenda against Israel to the extreme.

I said they were kooks for poking a vastly superior force. I never said they were all kooks or animals you inept fool. Quit trying to redefine my opinions to suit your own racist views please. Rather tired of your bullshit and lies attempting to support every and any action against Israel.

I've said time and again it was a mistake to put Israel over there. I've also said Israel is often far too aggressive.

Though I do understand them retaliating in this instance. I'm also glad to see they are fighting to end a fight rather than the manner in which they engaged Hezbollah ( which was a conflict led by two civilians with no real military experience ).

Quit ignoring basic truths and omg quit trying to sell us on the fact that you are this complete unbiased and neutral party in regards to this conflict. It's a lie and invalidates your basic assumptions.

I'm not ignoring your question about our past. It's a strawman and has nothing to do with this thread. Stick to topic and quit trying to muddy waters to avoid truths please.

If they were to invade as we do and worry about civilians, then you are 100% correct, however I doubt that the ME invading force would care, and razing the whole country to the ground would be an option.

Jedd. You don't get it.

Hitler tried that in Russia. It didnt work for him. Think about it logistically. An army moves in, and if it wants to annihilate a population, it stops, goes house to house, exposes itself, becomes a target. When armies stop moving, they start dying. Israel is has a 1.5 MILLION people who are listed as either being in the military or have had military training and are between the ages of 16 to 49. 1.5 Mil, with better weapons, fighting on their home soil for the survival of their race. That would take an army of 50 million.
And then you have to think that the rest of the world would stand by as the Israelis were exterminated in a second Holocaust.

The only thing Israel really has to fear is a nuclear attack. But another nation would have to be suicidal to conduct it.

Israel is a fortress. To use another historical analogy... It is Constantinople with better walls.

Jedd. You don't get it.

Hitler tried that in Russia. It didnt work for him.

Israel is a fortress. To use another historical analogy... It is Constantinople with better walls.

Better walls and longer range!

60 days of continual rocket fire into Israel is being ignored by you. I'm sorry this invalidates anything you are trying to claim and shows how you are toting Iran's agenda against Israel to the extreme.

How many years have the Palestinians been under occupation?
How long have they been forbidden from leaving the Gaza strip?
How many times has Israel cut off fuel, food, and medicinal supplies?

I am toting nobody's agenda. I simply see Israel as in the wrong more in most situations then I do the Palestinians.

Are Hamas members hippies who wanna hug and kiss Israeli's? No, in most cases they are probably fucked up people who have their own agenda. That doesn't make Israel justified in its response. Israel has broken multiple ceasefires, one time with a shelling on the beach which killed a couple who were laying on the beach, and many other times which don't stand out due to how often it occurs.

I am sick of this "toting Iran's Agenda" bullshit. Face it, I agree with Iran on some things and I disagree with them on others. I don't make decisions however based on what some fuckin country thousands of miles away decides they want to believe. I make my own decisions and if it happens to coincide with a decision they made, It doesn't make it toting their agenda.

You need to grow the fuck up and realize that a differing view other then yours is not all of a sudden propaganda or agenda driven. My agenda is peace. I am a liberal Democrat who wants to see war become a thing of the past, yet you somehow think to label me as a racist Jew hater.

I have Jewish family members, as well as Jewish friends and even most of them agree that Israel is fucked up and wrong. So kindly discuss my points, make your own, or just don't post.

I said they were kooks for poking a vastly superior force. I never said they were all kooks or animals you inept fool. Quit trying to redefine my opinions to suit your own racist views please. Rather tired of your bullshit and lies attempting to support every and any action against Israel.

So were the founding fathers kooks for going to war with a vastly superior force? Are oppressed people kooks for fighting against a vastly superior oppressor?

You are so full of shit.

I've said time and again it was a mistake to put Israel over there. I've also said Israel is often far too aggressive.

Finally we agree on something

Though I do understand them retaliating in this instance. I'm also glad to see they are fighting to end a fight rather than the manner in which they engaged Hezbollah ( which was a conflict led by two civilians with no real military experience ).

Funny I understand the same in favor or the Palestinians, but somehow that makes me biased, and you not.

Quit ignoring basic truths and omg quit trying to sell us on the fact that you are this complete unbiased and neutral party in regards to this conflict. It's a lie and invalidates your basic assumptions.

I am the one ignoring basic truths? Have you yet admitted that Israel breaks ceasefires repeatedly? Go look it up, you will find it. Israel has broken ceasefires at least 2 times in the past by running operations in which members of Hamas were killed.

I am 100 times more neutral then you in this matter. You can't see it, but I never expected you to. Just like those people back then didn't see how biased they were when they called me names for my view on the Iraq War. You are no different, go wave your flag elsewhere.

I'm not ignoring your question about our past. It's a strawman and has nothing to do with this thread. Stick to topic and quit trying to muddy waters to avoid truths please.

It is a direct response to your "they are all kooks" "They will always be fighting even with Israel gone" "They know nothing but fighting" type attitude.

You have no answer as to why we can consider them uncivilized in their conflicts with each other, seeing as how we have been involved with conflict our entire existence as a nation.

Typical Jedd fare and as such totally dismissed.

Sorry Bud.

Typical Jedd fare and as such totally dismissed.

Sorry Bud.

Typical Fandros deflecting and deciding not to answer legitimate debate.

First of all, seeing as how I am Iranian and American, I am least bias of all of you.




MMWUAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH AAHAHAH!

That pretty well sums up your arguments and the wonderful wealth of data used to present them. Almost as great an argument as Elren tossing out the idea of land being stolen, since he obviously was around the past several thousand years to observe how often various peoples populated that land and fought over it.

jedd, you are doing the exact same dance here as you have done so many other times......you make a statement, and then demand that others respond to it as you want and disregard everything else if they don't. You are just not that important, nor is the silly stuff you try to introduce into the conversation. It does not matter in this debate over Israel's being right or wrong how often the US has been at war, but you have been sticking to that form of argument for years now.

Israel wanted to be located on that plot of land for their own religious and historical reasons; they really were never wanted anywhere else, so the United Nations was happy to accommodate them, seeing as how the other people in the region had been pushed around for so long anyway, and had never shown much ability to make use of the land. If Israel survived, more power to them; and, if Israel was wiped out, at least they died on their own piece of land. Brutal, but basically the truth.

People care as much about the Palestinians as they do about the Somali's, and the folks in Darfur, and the starving Ethiopians and people of Bangladesh years ago, and the slaughter in Rwanda, etc! If there is nothing that is vital to a nation's interests, the level of aid and rhetoric is vastly different. Israel offers more in terms of being a toehold in the region than the Palestinians can offer were they to retake the area. All the fuzzy humanitarian crap aside, it is basic politics.

Well said Byl.

Jedd keeps calling it an occupation. Was there ever a land the folks of Gaza actually called their own. Did it have a name or were they merely nomads that no other ME country wanted around?

Fandros, you answered your own question. Prior to the "occupation" that Jedd is so fond of touting, the area was mostly Jewish to begin with. But since it was bordered off and given the name Israel, ZOMG, IT'S AN OCCUPATION!!!!11!

I hear Jedd, and others tbh, use the term occupation quite a bit and did a bit of research.

Now it appears the Palestinians claim on the area is dubious at best and outright contested by most.

The lil bit of reading I did suggest that the Palestinians were tossed out of every country in the ME and pushed into the land they occupy today. There never was an actual country for them to call home?

I admit to confusion in this regards and tho I think putting Israel in that area was a mistake it appears they've done far more with the land than anyone else ever dreamed of.

Yup, I can see why Jedd and his kind hate them. They turned a desert barren area into a valuable assett and have had to fight for it ever since.

Vile vile Israeli's!!

Keep drinkin the Israeli Koolaid, the palesinians who were forcefully moved or forced to accept minscule payment to sell their land and become homeless don't have that luxury.

The problem is the Palestinians are expendable. They are a "cheap" way for Arabs and fundamentalist Muslims to exploit and use as a rallying point against Israel. The Israelis are also not innocent in this as the walling in of the people leaves them with no other choice but to look towards Hamas as their "saviors".

The Iranians have no interest in the "Palestinian Problem" they really could give a shit. They do however have an Interest in becoming the dominant force in the ME and are obviously using the issue as a point for them to hopefully emerge as leaders.

Hamas unfortunately has decided that the destruction of Israel is their numero uno agenda and as we can see the results are not favorible to their followers. I think things were better for the Palestinians under Fatah.

Oh and that's not even half of it, how about the illegal expansion into Palestinian territory!

The problem is the Palestinians are expendable. They are a "cheap" way for Arabs and fundamentalist Muslims to exploit and use as a rallying point against Israel. The Israelis are also not innocent in this as the walling in of the people leaves them with no other choice but to look towards Hamas as their "saviors".

The Iranians have no interest in the "Palestinian Problem" they really could give a shit. They do however have an Interest in becoming the dominant force in the ME and are obviously using the issue as a point for them to hopefully emerge as leaders.

Hamas unfortunately has decided that the destruction of Israel is their numero uno agenda and as we can see the results are not favorible to their followers. I think things were better for the Palestinians under Fatah.

Of course they were better under fatah. People just got scares and voted Hamas cause they see them as defenders against Israel.

If they are going to continue military action (and I think this conflict/cease-fire would be much better mediated by the international community)

No.

Let em kill each other until they both mutually want peace. I honestly fail to grasp as to why in today's over crowded problem filled world there is such a push to keep people that act like such idiots from doing the species a favor and killing each other. Some man who was some what intelligent a few years ago would have called them all a bunch of dumb fucks and said they should get what they deserve for acting that way. His name was Darwin. Yet it all endures because people from other nations butt in, tell them to play nice just so they can lick their wounds, regroup and keep on fighting later on as if there was never a lesson to be learned the other 100 wars. Stupidity is an inherent trait that religion does not mitigate. Heh, don't tell that to those clowns in the Middle East though!

The rest of the world has meddled in the affairs of the Middle East lomng enough and the results have been mixed at best. Eventually, when generations have been killed off and there is no one left to run even the most basic needs of a civilization, then perhaps peace might be a good idea. Otherwise, let all the angry savage bastards kill each other. Perhaps the survivors will be the peaceful ones.

'Years ago I took a stand on these forums against the war in Iraq and I was called a terrorist, insulted, and banned. Today everything I said is echoed by half the board,'

- Hey, that's my line you prick.

Halo, while you took that stance you were not insulting and derogatory.

He was not banned for his stance, he was banned for being a tool.

San does not ban for opinions, he bans when folks are downright out of control. Funny how Jedd forgets this part of his past yet regales us with tales of his heroism and bravery by standing against the masses.

Funny how Jedd forgets this part of his past yet regales us with tales of his heroism and bravery by standing against the masses.

ZOMG, jedd is Ayers!

San does not ban for opinions, he bans when folks are downright out of control. Funny how Jedd forgets this part of his past yet regales us with tales of his heroism and bravery by standing against the masses.

I've never banned Jedd. I think it was Hubbe.

It was edena and it was not for being derogatory, it was for the anger my opinion fueled.

Of course they were better under fatah. People just got scares and voted Hamas cause they see them as defenders against Israel.


I believe whats been said by Egypt and a few other middle eastern countries there not to favorable of Islamic hamas, and would rather deal with Fatah.

I know its all Isreals fault. I mean egypt shares a border with gaza but no one is pressuring them to open up the border and let the palastines run willy nilly there. Isnt egypt having a blockade of there own against palastine and gaza they even shot a couple people trying to cross into egypt yesterday.

Im sure egypts response would be pretty similiar to isreals if Hamas started lobbing rockets into egypt.

Ediena was and is far wiser than you. If she banned you it was due to you inciting rather than the anger it brought about. I remember some of your words and I forgive you due to your youth and biased nature.

You've not risen to that level of stupidity since you returned and we're all glad that you stay just that side of the line.

Back to the thread!!

I believe whats been said by Egypt and a few other middle eastern countries there not to favorable of Islamic hamas, and would rather deal with Fatah.

I know its all Isreals fault. I mean egypt shares a border with gaza but no one is pressuring them to open up the border and let the palastines run willy nilly there. Isnt egypt having a blockade of there own against palastine and gaza they even shot a couple people trying to cross into egypt yesterday.

Im sure egypts response would be pretty similiar to isreals if Hamas started lobbing rockets into egypt.

So would Iran/Iraq/Saudi/US/Britian/France be equally quick. Good point Nekko.

No, No, No! It's all Israel's fault for turning that area into a green paradise. Don't you know it's easier to target things that are green and lush, rather than things that are the color of sand?

Or, Allah forbid, you pick up a farm tool, and try to make one yourself. Shoot rockets at things you wish you had!

Seems the Cain and Able story more properly fits, than the Issac and Ishmael angle....

Israel will never be accepted as long as Israel enslaves an entire population of muslims. Indeed the result that will most likely occur will be an attack on Israel from a neighbor/neighbors, and an Israeli Nuclear response, leading to the end of the middle east.

The real story though, is who would be blamed.. My money is on the slaves in Gaza.

LOL, I missed this earlier, or I would have replied then.

This is just one more example of the 'stoopid' rhetoric you use to try to make what could be otherwise valid points. Do you want to expound further on this, and beef up the argument somehow of exactly in what manner those Palestinians in Gaza are to be equated with slaves?

He's gonna spout something about how they have to pay a certain tax for being non-Jewish, Ect, Ect, Ect....

Totally overlooking the fact that true slaves are not paid at all....

Totally overlooking the fact that true slaves are not paid at all....

During the Civil War era, if you consider the monetary value of the food/shelter received, slaves were almost always better off than free, independent farmers in the same area. Common misconception that they were terribly mistreated, while comparable white farmers were living comfortably.

Of course, what price can you put on freedom? I'd say it's worth a damn lot.

At the same time, how many of us are really free even today? Free to quit your job and hurriedly find another before massa turns off the lights, heat, and water I guess.

At the same time, how many of us are really free even today? Free to quit your job and hurriedly find another before massa turns off the lights, heat, and water I guess.

Heh, slight tangent, but I got a T-shirt for Christmas with a Harley in the middle, and over it it says, "Born To Ride". Underneath it says, "Forced To Work".

As put so eloquently by Kris Kristofferson and Janis Joplin, "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose".

That's painting a pretty banal description on the word slavery San and you know it.

While quitting your job nowdays might lead to living on the streets it certainly doesn't equate to being put to death on a whim.

At the same time, how many of us are really free even today? Free to quit your job and hurriedly find another before massa turns off the lights, heat, and water I guess.

None of those things impacts freedom. Were people not free before electricity, centralized heating and air, and indoor plumbing? Native Americans were free. They had none of these things before the arrival of White settlers.

While I get the gist of what you mean, that really was a poor illustration.

There are plenty of ways to be free and exercise that freedom. Now if you want to participate in the Capitalist Utopia, you have to earn a wage....

At the same time, how many of us are really free even today? Free to quit your job and hurriedly find another before massa turns off the lights, heat, and water I guess.Whoa, you're actually comparing the system we live in to being owned by another human being, without any rights at all?

None of those things impacts freedom. Were people not free before electricity, centralized heating and air, and indoor plumbing? Native Americans were free. They had none of these things before the arrival of White settlers.

While I get the gist of what you mean, that really was a poor illustration.

The argument that people were more free when they controlled their own sustenance isn't a bad one.

Whoa, you're actually comparing the system we live in to being owned by another human being, without any rights at all?

Did you know that most slaves in the South didn't think of themselves as slaves at the time? The early civil rights leaders actually had a hard time getting them to accept that their situation was something that they should want to "escape" from. Plato's allegory of the cave.

The parallels are absolutely there. The false choice most of us make between participating in the system or being destitute isn't much of a choice.

The false choice most of us make between participating in the system or being destitute isn't much of a choice.

There are plenty of people in rural areas that do just that, down to controlling thier own sustenance. They are not destitute, and tend to be more self reliant.

People that live in cities don't have those options.

Like I said, most of us.

The argument that people were more free when they controlled their own sustenance isn't a bad one.

Ahh, and there we have an element that has been touched on here already; what sustenance was available other than some small olive farms and the herding of small flocks. The land was more barren than usable, prior to Israel developing and implementing progressive irrigation networks which have made a large portion of the land usable for multiple agricultural projects.

Israel of course is not without some blame in the many conflicts they have been party to, but they have offered to share with the Palestinians and other neighbors and been rebuffed, and instead attacked and threatened with extinction.

Look at the farms of South Africa that were once hugely productive and fed so many, and are now barely functional in many cases because of the desire by some to drive out the whites and reclaim what was "theirs", even though they did not have the expertise and knowledge to maintain the agricultural programs. The land Israel has reclaimed from the desert would revert back to that within 50 years, given the Palestinians were able to kick out the Jewish population.

But to the narrow minded, better that this handful of sand is MINE, than to share in a handful of rich productive soil with someone I am told by my Imams to hate.

Is there any reason to believe that the modern Palestinians would be any less able to do this than the modern Jews? If we contend that there was always a Jewish population in the region, the argument that Israel's irrigation systems are thanks to the Jews doesn't make much sense.

More likely, it's thanks to the ridiculous amount of aid we've given them, monetary and otherwise. Give that to anyone and they can buy some irrigation.

Is there any reason to believe that the modern Palestinians would be any less able to do this than the modern Jews? If we contend that there was always a Jewish population in the region, the argument that Israel's irrigation systems are thanks to the Jews doesn't make much sense.

More likely, it's thanks to the ridiculous amount of aid we've given them, monetary and otherwise. Give that to anyone and they can buy some irrigation.

ding ding ding, reality has entered, flee while there is still time sixee!

Is there any reason to believe that the modern Palestinians would be any less able to do this than the modern Jews? If we contend that there was always a Jewish population in the region, the argument that Israel's irrigation systems are thanks to the Jews doesn't make much sense.

More likely, it's thanks to the ridiculous amount of aid we've given them, monetary and otherwise. Give that to anyone and they can buy some irrigation.

Yes San, more reality injected here...

They were not going to get said monies as they were persecuted by the locals as were the Jewish. The land was not developed until monies and skills from other countries came in true. Shocker that some of those monies were brought by the settlers../gasp

I realize you're trying to either play devils advocate or maybe you even believe what you're saying . But after your absolutely idiotic comparision of slavery to current freedoms I don't know if your judgement is sound anymore.

Heaven forbid you not think my judgment is sound. I will have to abstain from the Internet and watch some more Fox News so that I can align my chi with your zen or something.

Or not.

They were not going to get said monies as they were persecuted by the locals as were the Jewish. The land was not developed until monies and skills from other countries came in true. Shocker that some of those monies were brought by the settlers../gasp

So basically, you're saying that the Palestinians have the Nazis to thank for irrigation? As long as you're jumping the shark to cling to this pro-Israel stance, I suppose you might as well jump high!

Actually, the Jews were introducing their irrigation programs before the UN decision of 1947 (pretty sure that was the year), and were in many cases farming alongside Arabs in cooperative efforts.

The point I was making which apparently was too difficult to grasp is that the Jews developed the land, whereas the Palestinians and a large portion of the Arab population were living a more nomadic existence, without any strong investment in the land itself. The Palestinians do not have a history of doing anything with the land because it was never really their land; it is where the rest of their "brethren" had pushed them to, in an attempt to keep them out of their own lands.

And now, having been pushed into a smaller area since they are unwilling to live in a coexistent fashion with the Jews, we have folks comparing their lot to being "enslaved". If they are to be considered "enslaved", it is to the dogma preached by their fanatical leaders and Imams, which has continued to keep them from realizing their potential.

And now, having been pushed into a smaller area since they are unwilling to live in a coexistent fashion with the Jews

HAHA, good one.

No no no San keep to whatever your doing.

Yes Slavery and modern live are exactly the same.

Wow, you have divorced yourself from all sanity. I'm glad we don't share, what was it you said...chi?

weirdo...

I'd prefer avoiding the topic too, if I were pro-Israel. I don't blame you for running away from it!

I believe whats been said by Egypt and a few other middle eastern countries there not to favorable of Islamic hamas, and would rather deal with Fatah.

I know its all Isreals fault. I mean egypt shares a border with gaza but no one is pressuring them to open up the border and let the palastines run willy nilly there. Isnt egypt having a blockade of there own against palastine and gaza they even shot a couple people trying to cross into egypt yesterday.

Im sure egypts response would be pretty similiar to isreals if Hamas started lobbing rockets into egypt.
Egypt has an agreement with Israel to not allow gaza citizens passage through the border. I think it is part of the treaty they signed after the war.

They are slaves because they are not allowed to come and go as they please. Gaza is completely walled off.

Luckily no one gives a fuck what Iran wants, except Iran.

Please explain Israel's illegal expansion into occupied Palestinian territory Byl.

It is condemned by most, including supposedly the US.

What are your thoughts?

There are plenty of people in rural areas that do just that, down to controlling thier own sustenance. They are not destitute, and tend to be more self reliant.

People that live in cities don't have those options.

You better not be talking about farmers because that is 100% false.

I'd prefer avoiding the topic too, if I were pro-Israel. I don't blame you for running away from it!

Didn't you know San, that avoiding a topic is ok for Fandros, cause Byl said that wanting an answer is apparently wrong in a debate.

Luckily no one gives a fuck what Iran wants, except Iran.

??? your country sure seems to be caring alot about iran wanting nuclear power.

I'm not a big fan of the military action, but to say that Israel is condemning the Palestinians to 'slavery' by building walls around the West Bank and Gaza strip (which Israel *ceded* back to the Palestinians!) is overreaching a bit. Despite our (and Hamas') tendency to think in black and white terms about the issue, many thousands of Arab-Israelis (including Palestinians) live and work in Israel, more or less peacefully, and the Fatah-controlled West Bank has been relatively quiet because the Palestinian Authority has been engaged in a legitimate political process with the Israeli government and despite the continuing issues, there were a record number of tourists to Bethlehem this year and economic prosperity, with the help of both local and foreign investment, is slowly returning to the region:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/24/world/middleeast/24bethlehem.html

What's going to happen with Jan 9th elections in the West Bank, especially in light of the military action in Gaza, who knows, but one *should* keep in mind is that: 1) the Palestinians called for the two-state solution in the first place, 2) "Palestinians" are far from a monolithic group and the various people who are descended (or not descended) from the original displaced peoples when Israel was created vary widely in their attitude and degree of identification with the different Palestinian movements, and that 3) Hamas is the most extremist of the emerged major groups, and their actions have been criticized even by some of the other Arab states as counterproductive (which is saying something considering how much they all at least pay lip service to hating Israel). Like it or not, it *was* Israel that economically developed the region (with or without massive foreign aid), and on that note, where is all the foreign aid/investment for Palestine from the swimming-in-oil-money Arab bloc? Given all the noise that has been made about their plight, do *they* really care about the Palestinian people all that much, or do they just prefer to see them walled off and suffering, perpetually 'martyred', as it were?

I'm not going to do the indefensible and claim that Israel's system of walls, checkpoints, and blockades doesn't cause suffering and hardship for the people living in Gaza and the West Bank. It does. But I'd also submit that if the Palestinians' dream of an independent and independently *functioning* Palestine is going to become a reality, they're going to have to either 1) figure out a way to live in peace (or at least engage in a sustained nonviolent dialogue) with the Israelis so that Israel will be willing to engage in commerce and economic development with them; and/or 2) engage in their own economic development with Arab help, if they cannot abide working constructively with Israel. They cannot have it both ways.

Regards,
Nydia

And as of 3:15 this afternoon (on NYT), it was announced that Ehud Barack is interested in exploring a French proposal for a cease-fire.

You better not be talking about farmers because that is 100% false.

No I was talking more about people that live in the country, that may raise crops and hunt.

Some people might call them hillbillies or rednecks.

I moved to a pretty hillbilly area not long ago, hunting and fishing is big here, and theres lots of farmers. But no one does either enough to live on.

Actually, the Jews were introducing their irrigation programs before the UN decision of 1947 (pretty sure that was the year), and were in many cases farming alongside Arabs in cooperative efforts.

The point I was making which apparently was too difficult to grasp is that the Jews developed the land, whereas the Palestinians and a large portion of the Arab population were living a more nomadic existence, without any strong investment in the land itself. The Palestinians do not have a history of doing anything with the land because it was never really their land; it is where the rest of their "brethren" had pushed them to, in an attempt to keep them out of their own lands.

That's an interesting angle, but how do you explain successful irrigation in, say, Lebanon? Israel has actually made said irrigation a target of their attacks in the past.

Protests across from the Israeli Consulate in NY:

edit: Oops, that was huge.

Good info By.

Learn something new every day.

Sanchek raises a good question: "What is freedom?" Maybe not intentionally, but raised none the less.

Janice Joplin said "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose".

In what sense are the Palestinians being denied freedom by Israelis and being enslaved? Via denial of economic opportunity? While the Gazans may be being denied, the people on the West Bank are/were starting to profit greatly from proximity to Israel.

In my philosophical mode id say to Sancheks claim that nobody is really free, because we have bills and responsibilities. I disagree. Most of that enslavement to our desires and wishes, selfish or otherwise.

Protests across from the Israeli Consulate in NY:

edit: Oops, that was huge.


Sanchek forgot to credit The Department of Homeland Security and FBI for the photo.

Good info By.

Learn something new every day.

Sanchek raises a good question: "What is freedom?" Maybe not intentionally, but raised none the less.

Janice Joplin said "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose".

In what sense are the Palestinians being denied freedom by Israelis and being enslaved? Via denial of economic opportunity? While the Gazans may be being denied, the people on the West Bank are/were starting to profit greatly from proximity to Israel.

In my philosophical mode id say to Sancheks claim that nobody is really free, because we have bills and responsibilities. I disagree. Most of that enslavement to our desires and wishes, selfish or otherwise.

what? how are they being denied freedom? you have to be kidding me, do you not have access to, you know, news?

In that case, is Egypt just as guilty as Israel for denying Gazans access to goods and services.

What specifically does Israel, on a normal basis, deny the people the Gaza Strip. And of these things, are any of them attributable to the government made of Hamas that the people of the Gaza Strip chose.

In that case, is Egypt just as guilty as Israel for denying Gazans access to goods and services.

What specifically does Israel, on a normal basis, deny the people the Gaza Strip. And of these things, are any of them attributable to the government made of Hamas that the people of the Gaza Strip chose.

They deny them fuel, electricity, food, water, medicine...

Yes Egypt is bowing to Israeli pressure and that makes them just as guilty in my opinion.

Leave it to Iranian children to hold the answer :(

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/765/slide_765_14273_large.jpg
Iranian Jewish schoolgirls hold signs calling for peace during a protest outside the United Nations headquarters in Tehran against the Israeli air strikes on the Gaza Strip on December 30, 2008. The blitz has sparked a wave of protests in cities around the world.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-clemons/brzezinski-says-to-joe-sc_b_154314.html

This was pretty cool :)

French proposal for a cease-fire

Must.....try...not...to laugh.

Seriously though. What is France backing up all the cease-fire proposals with? If you stop shooting than France will offer...what? Anyone know? Free passes to Euro Disney? It must be some kind of handouts...either business deals or hardware or something to make France look good and give them the feeling of relevance. I can only guess its for Hamas to stop the rocket attacks in exchange for humanitarian aid. Of course Hamas can actually keep their weaponry. No, lets not have a barter or anything. Give the french one rocket laucher with round and you get one truckload of supplies. would that be a fair trade? If you trade with Israel, they won't trade relief supplies. They will give you 10 bombs for every rocket though. You get more for less!

And Nydia, I am not intentionally trying to single you out. It just seems you have this stance that it is only Europe that can save the Middle East peace process. I am just in the most friendly manner calling bullshit on that. It should be, as my broken record has played before, up to the people in the Middle East if they really want peace and not up to some outside power to broker it while also gaining advantage. Any third party brokered peace is going to be either a punishment, a swindle, an occupation and/or 100% ineffective.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-clemons/brzezinski-says-to-joe-sc_b_154314.html

This was pretty cool :)

Heh...Joe Scarborough is kind of a dolt. I'm glad to see Mika is over her crush on sarah Palin.

They are slaves because they are not allowed to come and go as they please. Gaza is completely walled off.

So, the citizens of East Germany were slaves? Up until the Berlin wall was taken down? People sentenced to prison are no longer inmates, but slaves?

Gee, I did not know we could establish wholly new definitions for words to make them fit what we want.

So, the citizens of East Germany were slaves? Up until the Berlin wall was taken down? People sentenced to prison are no longer inmates, but slaves?

Gee, I did not know we could establish wholly new definitions for words to make them fit what we want.

Sorry let me change my vocab on this one... They are prisoners.

Sorry let me change my vocab on this one... They are prisoners.

So, how are they 100% locked in? If they have the financial means...can they legally leave? As in "Screw this place I am emmigrating to ___insert country of choice here___?" OR are they too stubborn to leave?

Also if they are prisoners...then the jailers are responsible for their welfare and have to actually occupy the area in the same manner as prison guards do. Israel doesn't do that. They just monitor the side of the border they can legally monitor. If they have issues than they need to talk to Egypt.

Nice try Jedd. Probably most can't afford to leave but could if they had the money. Many are also probably just too stupid or stubborn to leave.

So, how are they 100% locked in? If they have the financial means...can they legally leave? As in "Screw this place I am emmigrating to ___insert country of choice here___?" OR are they too stubborn to leave?

Also if they are prisoners...then the jailers are responsible for their welfare and have to actually occupy the area in the same manner as prison guards do. Israel doesn't do that. They just monitor the side of the border they can legally monitor. If they have issues than they need to talk to Egypt.

Nice try Jedd. Probably most can't afford to leave but could if they had the money. Many are also probably just too stupid or stubborn to leave.

Are you serious? You know NOTHING about the Gazans lives. They are not allowed to leave... FROM ANY SIDE! BORDERS ARE SEALED

Some are allowed within Israel at checkpoints, but other then through Israeli checkpoints into Israeli area's they are locked in. They are not allowed to leave Gaza buy supplies and come back...

Why doesn't Iran send ships then? Or work with Egypt to open borders? I see a lot of lip service and very little caring for the Palestinians.

Dear Lummus:

Wow, you read a lot into half a sentence! All I did was cut/paste that directly from the NYT's ticker as a way of mentioning the latest news from the area (as of 3:00 this afternoon). Just because I referenced German reportage earlier (because, frankly, it's usually superior to ours), and mentioned that the French were *offering* to broker a proposal, in no way implied that I in any way thought that Europe was going to 'solve' the Israeli/Hamas conflict or that that I was referencing direct EU involvement at all.

'Brokering' an agreement simply means that you, as a neutral party, are willing to act as intermediary between parties too hostile to each other to communicate directly. France has no dog in this fight and was offering to do so, and the NYT reported on it. While I think international pressure is of some use (sometimes significant use) in encouraging a cease-fire, I certainly wasn't suggesting that any lasting solution be between anyone but the parties themselves.

That having been said, UN or EU forces might be a hell of a lot more palatable to Hamas (and more importantly, the moderate Arab nations, Fatah, and the Palestinian people) along that border than Israeli forces would be should a cease fire be successfully negotiated and a continuing military presence or surveillance needed in the area.

Regards,
Nydia

Why doesn't Iran send ships then? Or work with Egypt to open borders? I see a lot of lip service and very little caring for the Palestinians.

Iran smuggles in food medicine and weapons to gaza. They care, just hard getting around the israeli blockade.

UN or EU forces might be a hell of a lot more palatable to Hamas (and more importantly, the moderate Arab nations, Fatah, and the Palestinian people) along that border than Israeli forces would be should a cease fire be successfully negotiated and a continuing military presence or surveillance needed in the area.


I agree that UN or EU forces would likely be more palatable to the groups involved. But, if they were to be mere observers as in the Balkans and African operations, it would be another wasted expense as they are not allowed to take any action whatsoever. Any force policing the border in that conflict needs to have the authority to intercede, or there will continue to be rocket attacks and subsequent air strike retaliation.

And, I do not think Israel will be too accepting of having anyone else on it's soil having arms and the authority to use them.

So, back to square one of trying to broker something that both sides can agree to, which requires leadership on both sides that has the ability to think forward. As long as the two sides continue using the past to justify the present, there will be no peace.

Years ago I took a stand on these forums against the war in Iraq and I was called a terrorist, insulted, and banned. Today everything I said is echoed by half the board,

Today's percieved bias will once again be tomorrow's differing viewpoint that may end up being correct again. You seem to find yourself on the wrong side of the argument yet again.
So group think makes you right?

Iran smuggles in food medicine and weapons to gaza. They care, just hard getting around the israeli blockade.

And thats why they are blockaded.

And thats why they are blockaded.

So they should just be defenseless then right?

Indeed, sending Chinese-made rockets to them (one of which hit an elementary school this morning 28 mi inside Israel) hardly fits the general definition of 'humanitarian aid' or 'economic development assistance' ;). There's a reason that Egypt is also involved in the blockade, and it isn't because they love the Israelis that much...

I'm sorry to see that we appear to be headed for a ground invasion though :/.

Regards,
Nydia

Indeed, sending Chinese-made rockets to them (one of which hit an elementary school this morning 28 mi inside Israel) hardly fits the general definition of 'humanitarian aid' or 'economic development assistance' ;). There's a reason that Egypt is also involved in the blockade, and it isn't because they love the Israelis that much...

I'm sorry to see that we appear to be headed for a ground invasion though :/.

Regards,
Nydia

When we stop selling High tech weaponry to Israel, you can talk. God damn biased ass double standards.

When we stop selling High tech weaponry to Israel, you can talk. God damn biased ass double standards.
It has been Israels land for thousands of years and should remain so, arab squaters need to be deported.

It has been Israels land for thousands of years and should remain so, arab squaters need to be deported.

It has been shared land for thousands of years... Squatters? They were forced from their homes, how is it your land throughout history, if you have to kick someone off of it to take it in the first place.

I agree that UN or EU forces would likely be more palatable to the groups involved. But, if they were to be mere observers as in the Balkans and African operations, it would be another wasted expense as they are not allowed to take any action whatsoever. Any force policing the border in that conflict needs to have the authority to intercede, or there will continue to be rocket attacks and subsequent air strike retaliation.

And, I do not think Israel will be too accepting of having anyone else on it's soil having arms and the authority to use them.

So, back to square one of trying to broker something that both sides can agree to, which requires leadership on both sides that has the ability to think forward. As long as the two sides continue using the past to justify the present, there will be no peace.

perhaps the UN would establish a peace-keeping force if israel were to abide by the numerous UN resolutions urging israel to stop its illegal occupations and retreat to the 1967 borders?

It has been shared land for thousands of years... Squatters? They were forced from their homes, how is it your land throughout history, if you have to kick someone off of it to take it in the first place.

Tell that to the American Indians!

Tell that to the American Indians!

The American Indians have just as much of a right, and that is why they are allowed to live here, have their own land, and vote.

Palestinians cannot vote for Israel's leaders.

Last I checked the Native Americans are not launching rockets into US cities.

If you honestly believe that Hamas militants would stop launching rockets if Israel were to withdraw to the 1967 borders, then I have some beach front property in Florida to sell you.

I posted this once before. Suppose there is this person that tells you that they will spend every last breath trying to kill you. This person is half your size and each time he attacks you, he is easily subdued. Do you spend your entire life defending, subduing, releasing him or do you just break his neck and be done with it.

It has been shared land for thousands of years... Squatters? They were forced from their homes, how is it your land throughout history, if you have to kick someone off of it to take it in the first place.
Acient Israel has owned the land for near 4 thousand years, they have the right to take back what historical is theirs.

Arabs can not tie back their roots to the philistines land they now hold.

Last I checked the Native Americans are not launching rockets into US cities.

If you honestly believe that Hamas militants would stop launching rockets if Israel were to withdraw to the 1967 borders, then I have some beach front property in Florida to sell you.

I posted this once before. Suppose there is this person that tells you that they will spend every last breath trying to kill you. This person is half your size and each time he attacks you, he is easily subdued. Do you spend your entire life defending, subduing, releasing him or do you just break his neck and be done with it.
Good point.

Might=makes Right.

Elren you are insane...

Phelonius, If they went back to 1967 borders, or if the walls came down and Palestinians were given the right to vote in Israeli elections and live amongst Israeli's the need to fight would fall to 0% instantly.

anyone left fighting would simply be a criminal as in any society.

Last I checked the Native Americans are not launching rockets into US cities.


Silly...everyone knows they use arrows.

Elren you are insane...

Phelonius, If they went back to 1967 borders, or if the walls came down and Palestinians were given the right to vote in Israeli elections and live amongst Israeli's the need to fight would fall to 0% instantly.

anyone left fighting would simply be a criminal as in any society.

Im sorry you are so delusional Jedd, really I am.

Phelonius, If they went back to 1967 borders, or if the walls came down and Palestinians were given the right to vote in Israeli elections and live amongst Israeli's the need to fight would fall to 0% instantly.


Do you mean the way the Jews first attempted to deal with the Palestinians?
Until they tired of being attacked?

Do you mean the way the Jews first attempted to deal with the Palestinians?
Until they tired of being attacked?


The Palestinians have never been allowed to vote in Israeli elections. You are thinking of the elections within their own territory.

To this day Palestinians get no vote to determine the future of their familes. Open elections would show instantly that Israelis see them as equals and not as rats down south or to the east.

So group think makes you right?

Jesus, go read the wikipedia article on groupthink you goddamn moron.

Acient Israel has owned the land for near 4 thousand years, they have the right to take back what historical is theirs.

And here is basically what it boils down to. The bible says its their land, so lets give it to them. I've yet to hear a logical argument supporting Israel's recent actions that is not premised on this in some fashion.

I posted this once before. Suppose there is this person that tells you that they will spend every last breath trying to kill you. This person is half your size and each time he attacks you, he is easily subdued. Do you spend your entire life defending, subduing, releasing him or do you just break his neck and be done with it.

Please come up with a halfway rational scenario in which Israel could "break the neck" of the Palestinians.

If you honestly believe that Hamas militants would stop launching rockets if Israel were to withdraw to the 1967 borders, then I have some beach front property in Florida to sell you.

And again, in case you missed it, the most recent cease fire was broken by ISRAEL going into gaza and killing Palestinians. They broke the agreement - I'd fire some fucking rockets at them too.

The Palestinians have never been allowed to vote in Israeli elections. You are thinking of the elections within their own territory.

To this day Palestinians get no vote to determine the future of their familes. Open elections would show instantly that Israelis see them as equals and not as rats down south or to the east.

So convenient how you only respond to that part, and ignore the part where they were willing to live alongside the Palestinian populace.

Who is to say whether the Palestinian people would have ever had a vote, since there was never a substantial enough period of peace to work together toward anything.

Elren you are insane...

Phelonius, If they went back to 1967 borders, or if the walls came down and Palestinians were given the right to vote in Israeli elections and live amongst Israeli's the need to fight would fall to 0% instantly.

anyone left fighting would simply be a criminal as in any society.
Jedd by your own admission you are living on stolen indian land but you arn't giving it back.

Yet somehow different rules should apply to the isralies?

Jesus, go read the wikipedia article on groupthink you goddamn moron.



And here is basically what it boils down to. The bible says its their land, so lets give it to them. I've yet to hear a logical argument supporting Israel's recent actions that is not premised on this in some fashion.



Please come up with a halfway rational scenario in which Israel could "break the neck" of the Palestinians.

leaving the bible and God out of it.

Who has the ruins of their acient temple in Israel, which base still stands for over 3000 years?

Thats who owns the land.

Might Makes right!

So convenient how you only respond to that part, and ignore the part where they were willing to live alongside the Palestinian populace.

Who is to say whether the Palestinian people would have ever had a vote, since there was never a substantial enough period of peace to work together toward anything.

When Israel was close to making peace with the Palestinians, an Israeli assassinated their leader to prevent it.

Or a new American president ignored the work done by the past President and allowed it to fall apart.

Or an Israeli leader decides to spit in the face of the Palestinians by visiting the temple mount causing the first intifada.

The Israeli's have NEVER been willing to live alongside the Palestinians.

And remember your own words when I ask Fandros to answer something I posted?

and again, in case you missed it, the most recent cease fire was broken by israel going into gaza and killing palestinians. They broke the agreement - i'd fire some fucking rockets at them too.

qft!

How many times will Israel break ceasefires and blame it on Hamas or Hezbollah rearming...

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21508028-5005961,00.html

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=3058

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1531571/Hamas-threatens-to-break-ceasefire-after-Israeli-air-strikes.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1341092/Israeli-incursion-breaks-ceasefire.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5065008.stm


These are just a few where Israel has broken ceasefires with Hamas or Hezbollah.

The BBC article explains how Israel shelled a beach and killed 6 or 7 innocent Gazan's, and that Hamas threatened to break a self imposed cease fire... Terrorists organizations with self imposed cease fires? This is Madness!

One of them even dares to be so bias as to print, and I quote "Hamas threatens to break ceasefire after Israeli Air Strikes."

Uh... if Israel carried out an Air Strike, that is breaking the ceasefire.

No... the truth is simple. Israel doesn't want peace, they want the Arabs gone, and they want all the land for themselves.

When Israel was close to making peace with the Palestinians, an Israeli assassinated their leader to prevent it.

Or a new American president ignored the work done by the past President and allowed it to fall apart.

Or an Israeli leader decides to spit in the face of the Palestinians by visiting the temple mount causing the first intifada.

The Israeli's have NEVER been willing to live alongside the Palestinians.

And remember your own words when I ask Fandros to answer something I posted?

Just because you were painted into a corner and couldn't stick to topic doesn't mean I have to give your off topic questions justice.

Knock it off.

Just because you were painted into a corner and couldn't stick to topic doesn't mean I have to give your off topic questions justice.

Knock it off.

You contribute nothing to this discussion, move along and squabble with your boyfriend Elren.

you and he are exchanging love as well pup.

I've contributed plenty, you in your racist rage ignore it and jump the sharks to change topic.

You're a racist biggot and offer nothing more than what the Iran press release offers.

Hey they are signing folks up to go fight the evil Israelis..go man go!

Sounds like Egypt wants Hamas done as well, how is it we don't see you attack them as well?

Saving their race for your next hatred should your buddies wipe out Israel?

you and he are exchanging love as well pup.

I've contributed plenty, you in your racist rage ignore it and jump the sharks to change topic.

You're a racist biggot and offer nothing more than what the Iran press release offers.

Hey they are signing folks up to go fight the evil Israelis..go man go!

Sounds like Egypt wants Hamas done as well, how is it we don't see you attack them as well?

Saving their race for your next hatred should your buddies wipe out Israel?

You are such an idiot, it is a waste of time, employing the same ridiculous Anti Semite nonsense that anyone who questions Israel is labeled with. Grow some balls and discuss when you can admit to being wrong.

Waiting for someone with more knowledge than what their mom's, uncles, next door neighbors goat told them.

Dumbass, you label me as listening to mom/dad/uncle and yet you offer nothing new.

It's all spewn by the Iranian PM, you really should sign up. They could use you over there.

Israel is not alone is their dislike of Hamas. New flash, many countries over there dislike the extremists and the countries that empower them.

in step indeed, you may spring from that genetic heritage but you really only know one of them.

If everyone is so deadset against Israel, why is it Egypt has a barrier up against the fools from hamas as well?

hmmmmmm? You have yet to ever answer that one, and it was posed early on ( and directly related to this mess, which is wrong on BOTH SIDES)

Do try to read more than just what you want to see you uneducated butthead.

Dumbass, you label me as listening to mom/dad/uncle and yet you offer nothing new.

I offer you links to articles of past cease fire breakage by Israel, I offer you some information you are either clearly lacking or unwilling to accept.

It's all spewn by the Iranian PM, you really should sign up. They could use you over there.

Keep repeating this over and over and maybe one day it will come true!!! better yet say it 3 times and the Iranian PM might appear like Beetlejuice.

Israel is not alone is their dislike of Hamas. New flash, many countries over there dislike the extremists and the countries that empower them.

The majority of the world's population considers Israel a terrorist state, and an illegal state. You don't know that do you?

in step indeed, you may spring from that genetic heritage but you really only know one of them.

You are so unintelligent that I understand the need for you to reject new data. Your head cannot handle a lot and would probably explode if you fed it anything other then the goats teachings.

If everyone is so deadset against Israel, why is it Egypt has a barrier up against the fools from hamas as well?

Because it was an agreement Egypt made with Israel, and Egypt doesn't break their word? Unlike Israel who breaks her word frequently

hmmmmmm? You have yet to ever answer that one, and it was posed early on ( and directly related to this mess, which is wrong on BOTH SIDES)

I answered it twice, you just ignore my answer like you ignore anything you have no answer for.

Do try to read more than just what you want to see you uneducated butthead.

LOL, Who broke the ceasefire?

Answer that and we will see who the uneducated one is.

I think what is going on over there sucks. I wish both sides could live peacefully. I do not see that happening as long as radicals are in charge, and or they want the total death of the other race.

Also don't act like Hamas has not broken cease fires either.

I think what is going on over there sucks. I wish both sides could live peacefully. I do not see that happening as long as radicals are in charge, and or they want the total death of the other race.

Also don't act like Hamas has not broken cease fires either.

There are radicals in charge of Hamas just as there are in charge of Israel.

Hamas may have broken a ceasefire as well, that makes them both equally reprehensible. Regardless how much Fandros and other Israeli ass kissers want to try and sugarcoat their actions.

I realize this is just a technicality - but it was Hamas who voted not to renew the cease-fire earlier this month prior to hostilities breaking out, and rockets began striking Israeli border towns (Sderot) on Dec 19th - two Israelis (one an Israeli-Arab) were dead and several dozen injured before the Israeli offensive began on Dec 26th. On Wednesday, December 24th, Ehud Olmert even broadcast a warning message in a television interview that failure to stop the rocket attacks would result in Israel's responding forcefully. As Der Spiegel put it, Hamas' stupidity is no excuse for Israel's overreaction, but even so, to claim that Israel is solely to blame for the current crisis is rather silly.

It can be argued that it might also be 'somewhat silly' for Israel to expect Hamas to rope in all of their extremists firing said rockets. It certainly provides some legitimate justification however, in the absence of their ability to do that, for Israel and Egypt to continue the blockade, and if Hamas refuses to abide by or renew cease-fires, using them only as pauses in order to enable them to smuggle in more weapons, to deal more aggressively with the smuggling operations.

It does seem a shame that Israel doesn't seem to be any more capable of learning from these incidents than Hamas is though, and keeps falling into the same trap, two steps forward, one-and-a-half steps back...

Regards,
Nydia

I realize this is just a technicality - but it was Hamas who voted not to renew the cease-fire earlier this month prior to hostilities breaking out, and rockets began striking Israeli border towns (Sderot) on Dec 19th - two Israelis (one an Israeli-Arab) were dead and several dozen injured before the Israeli offensive began on Dec 26th. On Wednesday, December 24th, Ehud Olmert even broadcast a warning message in a television interview that failure to stop the rocket attacks would result in Israel's responding forcefully. As Der Spiegel put it, Hamas' stupidity is no excuse for Israel's overreaction, but even so, to claim that Israel is solely to blame for the current crisis is rather silly.

It can be argued that it might also be 'somewhat silly' for Israel to expect Hamas to rope in all of their extremists firing said rockets. It certainly provides some legitimate justification however, in the absence of their ability to do that, for Israel and Egypt to continue the blockade, and if Hamas refuses to abide by or renew cease-fires, using them only as pauses in order to enable them to smuggle in more weapons, to deal more aggressively with the smuggling operations.

It does seem a shame that Israel doesn't seem to be any more capable of learning from these incidents than Hamas is though, and keeps falling into the same trap, two steps forward, one-and-a-half steps back...

Regards,
Nydia

I am sorry Nydia but you are completely incorrect.

Israel does not classify its operations inside of Gaza as a breakage of a ceasefire, that is why even during a cease fire Israel will launch Air Strikes, and carry out operations inside Gaza.

Hamas considers this a break of the cease fire and launches rockets, and then Israel claims Hamas broke the Cease fire. I have seen it time and time again. That is why people are no longer falling for Israel's claims that Hamas is the aggressor. That is why there are protests world wide over this offensive.

You however did make a good point in regards to Hamas controlling all groups within Gaza which fire rockets. It would be very hard to control every single group, moreso now that the Hamas police force has been decimated from the air by Israel. Lawlessness will run rampant and more rockets then before will be fired simply because Hamas would not even be able to control the factions that fire these rockets even if they wish to do so.

The problem here is that both sides do a little good, and then it falls apart because of the impatience and anger of the other side. Both can be blamed for the deteriorating situation in Gaza, however I do blame the side with the bigger guns for disproportionate use of force in response. One would think that perhaps they break the cease fire and goad Hamas into launching rockets just to keep the veil over the worlds eyes on how aggressive and eager to spill blood they really are.

And while I realize that this thread to degenerate to the point where people are going to start posting recipes - and I just pulled an *awesome* lemony apple pie out of the oven ;) - but I did want to say that I'm not *condoning* the stridency of Israel's actions nor am I unmindful of the massive suffering the Israeli action is causing to the Palestinian people. Some pictures from the offensive can be seen here:

http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-38415.html#backToArticle=598656

Regards,
Nydia

Israel does not classify its operations inside of Gaza as a breakage of a ceasefire, that is why even during a cease fire Israel will launch Air Strikes, and carry out operations inside Gaza.

Can you back that up with any legitimate documentation of such during this last cease-fire?

When Israel was close to making peace with the Palestinians, an Israeli assassinated their leader to prevent it.

Or a new American president ignored the work done by the past President and allowed it to fall apart.

Or an Israeli leader decides to spit in the face of the Palestinians by visiting the temple mount causing the first intifada.

The Israeli's have NEVER been willing to live alongside the Palestinians.

And remember your own words when I ask Fandros to answer something I posted?

It is simply amazing how easily you can ignore history.

It is pointless to continue with this thread, since those in favor of bashing Israel refuse to grant any truth to history, and those of us who have said both sides are at fault are considered Israeli butt-kissers. /shrug

Jedd.

Nobody is saying Israel is without fault here. Why do you continue to deny that Hamas bears equal responsibility for the situation as it is? Everyone knows whats happening here. Iran who is funding Hamas has pushed it and nudged it and prodded it to poke and provoke as often much as possible.

Iran WANTS this. They don't give a flying damn about the Palestinian people. They will use their blood to oil the machinery of their own ends.

Israel has allowed hard liners there and here to play right into this cycle of violence. Eventually it had to come to this. Some Israelis want to see the entire West Bank and Gaza bulldozed and resettled and the Palestinians expelled.

At this point.. why not. Peace is now dead. There is no longer a chance in this generation in my opinion. Israel might as well follow this line of action to its logical conclusion. Just fucking get it over with. Invade Gaza, destroy everything in their path, push and drive the people to the Egyptian border and build a huge fucking wall.

Or better yet.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f313/iowastate/1-4.jpg

If Israel REALLY wanted to do what you claim they do Jedd, Gaza gets it water from one aquifer. One. And its pretty much in the desert. Bomb the aquifer. Seal the borders. Wait two weeks. Don't even have to fire a bullet.

Can you back that up with any legitimate documentation of such during this last cease-fire?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/1230/1230581467173.html

MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI, PALESTINIAN LEGISLATOR: The world press community or media community is overwhelmed with the Israeli narrative, which is incorrect. The Israeli spokesperson have been spreading lies all over. The reality and the truth is that the side that broke this truce and this ceasefire was Israel. Two months before it ended, Israel started attacking Rafah, started attacking Hanunis (ph), and never lifted the blockade on Gaza. Gaza remains without fuel, without electricity, with bread, without medications, without any medical equipment for people who are dying in Gaza -- 262 people died, 6 people because of no access to medical care. So Israel broke the ceasefire.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: And you know what we did? I've checked with some of the folks here at our international desk, and I went to them and asked, What was he talking about, and do we have any information on that? Which they confirmed, two months ago -- this is back in November -- there was an attack. It was an Israeli raid that took out six people.

Now, let me refer you -- it's not just us. We've checked in other periodicals. Johnny (ph), go over my shoulder, if you can. Here we go. "The six-month ceasefire started coming apart at the beginning of November after Israeli commandos killed a team of Hamas fighters during a raid on a tunnel they suspected was being dug for kidnapping of Israeli soldiers. That raid set off more Palestinian rocketing." That's "U.S. News and World Report."

I got another one for you, I believe, here. OK, this is "The Guardian" -- questionable, but nonetheless. "A four-month ceasefire between Israel and Palestinian militants in Gaza was in jeopardy today" -- this was actually reported when it happened -- "after Israeli troops killed six gunmen in a raid in the territory." That's important to report.

And here we go, as well, from the Economist.com, and the point of contention here is this one. Johnny, one more. "The last straw came in November, when Israelis killed six gunmen it said were digging tunnels to launch a raid onto Israel, spurring Hamas to respond with a barrage of rockets."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/31/cnr.07.html

It is simply amazing how easily you can ignore history.

It is pointless to continue with this thread, since those in favor of bashing Israel refuse to grant any truth to history, and those of us who have said both sides are at fault are considered Israeli butt-kissers. /shrug

What history did I Ignore Byl? Enlighten me.

Jedd.

Nobody is saying Israel is without fault here. Why do you continue to deny that Hamas bears equal responsibility for the situation as it is? Everyone knows whats happening here. Iran who is funding Hamas has pushed it and nudged it and prodded it to poke and provoke as often much as possible.

Iran WANTS this. They don't give a flying damn about the Palestinian people. They will use their blood to oil the machinery of their own ends.

Israel has allowed hard liners there and here to play right into this cycle of violence. Eventually it had to come to this. Some Israelis want to see the entire West Bank and Gaza bulldozed and resettled and the Palestinians expelled.

At this point.. why not. Peace is now dead. There is no longer a chance in this generation in my opinion. Israel might as well follow this line of action to its logical conclusion. Just fucking get it over with. Invade Gaza, destroy everything in their path, push and drive the people to the Egyptian border and build a huge fucking wall.

I already said that I believe both sides are at fault for the overall violence and bloodshed that is going on in that region, however people here seem to think adding a little "But Israel was justified" at the end is alright.

I simply will not let ignorance prevail on a message board that is here for discussion and debate. They are misinformed, and damnit I am going to call them out on it.

Jedd.

Nobody is saying Israel is without fault here. Why do you continue to deny that Hamas bears equal responsibility for the situation as it is? Everyone knows whats happening here. Iran who is funding Hamas has pushed it and nudged it and prodded it to poke and provoke as often much as possible.

Iran WANTS this. They don't give a flying damn about the Palestinian people. They will use their blood to oil the machinery of their own ends.

Israel has allowed hard liners there and here to play right into this cycle of violence. Eventually it had to come to this. Some Israelis want to see the entire West Bank and Gaza bulldozed and resettled and the Palestinians expelled.

At this point.. why not. Peace is now dead. There is no longer a chance in this generation in my opinion. Israel might as well follow this line of action to its logical conclusion. Just fucking get it over with. Invade Gaza, destroy everything in their path, push and drive the people to the Egyptian border and build a huge fucking wall.

Before retiring from this thread, I need to make one point. While I agree with almost all of the quote, I would say push them into Syria, rather than Egypt, as it is Syria that has allied itself with Iran to arm these idiots.

Now, off to check the cupboards for ingredients for some baked french toast and the Strata I saw prepared on the Today show a week ago. I get to make brunch Saturday. :p

Before retiring from this thread, I need to make one point. While I agree with almost all of the quote, I would say push them into Syria, rather than Egypt, as it is Syria that has allied itself with Iran to arm these idiots.

Now, off to check the cupboards for ingredients for some baked french toast and the Strata I saw prepared on the Today show a week ago. I get to make brunch Saturday. :p

It is sad that the a citizen of a country found upon forming a militia and taking on a superior force through terrorist like actions would call others doing the same thing Idiots.

Just irks me how easy it is to forget that when people are backed into a corner, sometimes they have to lift up a weapon and fight for the freedom they deserve.

Truly sad how if your not white, you don't have the right to fight for freedom in your small minds. Israel who used those methods is now your precious little victim to be protected from retribution, as another group tries to use the same methods to break from their own nightmare.

Or better yet.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f313/iowastate/1-4.jpg

If Israel REALLY wanted to do what you claim they do Jedd, Gaza gets it water from one aquifer. One. And its pretty much in the desert. Bomb the aquifer. Seal the borders. Wait two weeks. Don't even have to fire a bullet.

Why? there would be no way to blame that on the Palestinians. At least this way they can claim Hamas broke the Cease fire and is getting a response(even though it is a lie).

If they do what you propose, there would be no way to defend Israel's actions, it would simply be genocide.

Jedd.

Why are people in the West Bank treated better than the people in Gaza? Why are they prospering and leading pretty quiet lives?

The only freedom Hamas seems to be interested in is Operational Freedom.