Since the issue of race was raised in the Katrina Aid thread, I thought it was worth discussing further without totally derailing that thread.

Many are saying the response would have been quicker if it had been mostly white folks being shown on the TV news programs; while some have talked about the predominantly white NO police force, I have only seen black officers on the newscasts so far; does there still exist these pockets of poor living in all of our major cities and what is being done to raise their standards of living; will this event initiate any progressive movement or will it further divide the country; and, should Kanye West be charged with inciting to riot for his comments on the benefit program last night?

Are we headed for improved relations, or a full blown race war, or will this event and it's aftermath be a major issue in the coming elections......

These are all topics I am hearing folks talk about today, and am wondering what the thoughts are of the folks here.

Is race playing a role in the evacuation and relief efforts? The answer would appear to me (a white male in Ohio), to be a resounding YES. I'm ashamed at how the poor black folk from NO are being treated. Should the rapper from last night be charged with inciting a riot? Nope, he's speaking the truth.

To quote an excerpt from a MSNBC article:

At one point Friday, the evacuation was interrupted briefly when school buses pulled up so some 700 guests and employees from the Hyatt Hotel could move to the head of the evacuation line — much to the amazement of those who had been crammed in the Superdome since last Sunday.

“How does this work? They (are) clean, they are dry, they get out ahead of us?” exclaimed Howard Blue, 22, who tried to get in their line. The National Guard blocked him as other guardsmen helped the well-dressed guests with their luggage.

The 700 had been trapped in the hotel, near the Superdome, but conditions were considerably cleaner, even without running water, than the unsanitary crush inside the dome. The Hyatt was severely damaged by the storm. Every pane of glass on the riverside wall was blown out.


the article is here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9175611/page/2/


This is ridiculous. Let's rescue the 700 rich white folk that have better living conditions than the people outside the Dome and the Convention Center. In fact, lets interrupt the evacuation efforts of some 25,000 predominantly black folk to rescue 700 rich white folk. If i were a black man, there'd be no other way to feel than race played a major role in these abhorable choices made by our government.

And then the other side of the coin. I'm sure thats what it was about. Couldn't have been because regardless of race, class, money or power everyone deserves to get out of there, and while they've rescued thousands from the arena, they haven't pulled anyone from the hotel. Nope not at all.

Then look at the safety aspect of it. a crowd of 700, vs a crowd of thousands, which is more likely to have an unruly group in it? Logistical? which is easier to move, hundreds, or thousands?

And now, the empty hotel could be used to house those in need of medical attention, or maybe all those elderly who keep dying from exposure to the heat. Pull your head from your ass this is not about race.

This is not about RACE.

This is not about RACE.

Actually, this thread is only about RACE, as it relates to the areas of discussion in the opening post of the thread. For two and a half hours this morning in the post office, these were the topics people were talking about; once I was out delivering mail, these were the most common things customers on my route were talking about; these are the things I am seeing in the newspapers and on television news programs being discussed by people in government as well as people on the street.

So yes, it IS unfortunately about RACE.

You can bet for damn sure that there were more than just white people in the Hyatt. It's an economic issue, not a race issue. People that try to play the race card only escalate the race issue more than it already is.

Kayne should be ashamed for grandstanding during the fund raiser like that. If that's his opinion, he should've written a song about it for his next album. Jeopardizing the charity efforts just goes to show that he cares more about publicity for himself than helping anyone else.

Dear Bylimet:

Have you got a link to the comments made by Kanye West? I was out last evening and did not see the benefit concert. As far as the race issue goes, it appears that this case was primarily a socioeconomic issue - but that by no means excuses it and if I had been on the ground in that living hell at the convention center or at the Superdome, where I had been told to go and told for days that buses would be coming for us, and witnessed something like that, I would be very upset and if those people were overwhelmingly white, which has been reported...

However you slice it, if the people at the Hyatt were in better condition than those at the dome, their evacuation should have waited its turn - that's what triage means, after all.

While we're on this topic, I feel compelled to bring something up that happened to me this week that has been bothering me for days. As you know, I live on the border with Mexico, and there's not even any pretence of equality of treatment here - the 'patron' system reigns supreme. I've been having some female health problems, and went to see my GP a couple of weeks ago, as having pregnancy symptoms when you're 42 and have had a tubal ligation is a bit disturbing :). He wrote me up for some blood work and also referred me to a OB/Gyn in the area (they're pretty busy here ;) ), and when he couldn't make an appointment for me in the office, said his staff would set it up. Well, when he found out a few days later that the soonest the gyno could see me was a month (preliminary blood work was fine), he called the ob/gyn on the phone and demanded that I be seen immediately, despite my protests that I did not mind waiting. I could hear 'She's a university professor!' being exclaimed over the phone through the wall and he emerged with the message that they would call me the following morning and fit me in. They did so, and while I had to wait for an hour when I got there, I was let in to see the doctor ahead of three very pregnant women who were also waiting. The doctor apologized to *me* about the inconvenience and that I was being kept from work (which was true, I had a microbiology class waiting for me), and while I was glad to get in to be examined, the whole thing left a very disconcerting taste in my mouth. As far as I know, my situation is not exactly life threatening (I'll get a full exam next month), and it seems like a lot of people were inconvenienced for the sake of my somewhat nebulous 'status'. Did my race play a role as well? I don't know. In any case, I would have been much more comfortable not being treated in such a fashion - and if one extrapolates that situation to something more serious, like who gets potentially life-saving treatment or a place to live, it points to something... uncomfortable and antithetical to our American ideals about equality.

Sorry for the tangent, btw :)

Regards,
Nydia

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/04/opinion/04rice.html?ei=5090&en=ce2f33f8719dba9c&ex=1283486400&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=print

Nydia---> buttlands.net/kanye.avi (http://buttlands.net/kanye.avi)

It was posted on another forum I frequent.

Thanks for posting the link Ibudin. I was not aware of one myself.

Also, I was unaware of the hotel evacuation until I read it in this thread. That incident had nothing to do with my wondering what others thought about these issues.

I found it interesting tho, to see on the NBC national news program the same questions being asked tonight by one of the national correspondents; what does this say about, and what effect will this event have upon the race relations in this country?

To me, it mostly says that the media isn't happy enough with the ratings from one week of gloom and doom, and they don't mind extending it at the cost of instigating more racial tension.

It's just a rich vs poor issue ... and you can ask yourself who's fault it is so many black people in that area are poor.

Nydia---> buttlands.net/kanye.avi (http://buttlands.net/kanye.avi)

It was posted on another forum I frequent.

Doesnt work for me :( Anyone else have a link to it?

Try this one. http://media.putfile.com/Kanye79

Thanks for the link :)

/jaw drops

I just lost all respect for that guy. Did you see the look on Mike Myers face?! Kinda what I suppose many looked like after seeing that.

I mean, its not like we have a government agency that is part of the presidents cabinet that is responsible for PROACTIVELY planning how the government will respond to natural disasters.

Oh wait, we USED to have an agency like that called FEMA.

President Clinton elevated FEMA to Cabinet level post. The head of FEMA USED to be a Cabinet-level job and as such would sit in on meetings of the National Security Council and—at least theoretically—have a direct line to the president.

But as with other republican, knee-jerk, Pavlovian responses - if Clinton did it then we must do the opposite!

Now FEMA is a tiny subsidiary of the mammoth Department of Homeland Security.

FEMA—an agency that used to deal with natural disasters— is now set up primarily to deal with terrorist attacks.

The DHS agency in charge of liaison with local emergency-planning outfits—the Office of State and Local Government Coordination and Preparedness—has had its budget cut by more than $600 million in the last two years. Gee, coordinating with state and local governments - thats not too important, huh?!

I mean, its not like anything could have saw what happend in New orleans coming....

Oh wait, they DID!

A FEMA study in early 2001 pegged a hurricane in New Orleans as one of the three biggest catastrophes that might strike the United States (the others were an earthquake in San Francisco and a terrorist attack in New York). Other specialists had warned that the levees might rupture—a possibility that neither the current president nor his advisers apparently foresaw.

FEMA said this was the "three likeliest, most castastrophic disasters".

This administrations' response: Cut preparedness.

In June of this year, it was announced that the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers budget would be reduced by a record $71.2 million in federal funding.

Guess thats one cut that will not be carried out now, huh?

But there is a scarier question still to consider: How ready is DHS for the disaster that its officials have been focused on the last two and a half years? If New Orleans' levees had been broken not by a hurricane but by terrorists' bombs, the nightmares we see now—the lack of planning and therefore of food, water, transportation, shelter, and public order—would be no different.

And yet the Department of Homeland Security had scant little to deal with it, either on hand or ready for quick mobilization, and nothing in the 2006 budget suggests it will be any readier next year, whether for a hurricane or another 9/11.

Instead of declaring a national emergency and deploying the military from all those nearby Texas bases, Bush deployed his father and President Clinton for a photo op at the White House as a prelude to a fund-raising tour. Today (Sat) 6 days after the hurricane hit, he is just now deploying active duty troops from TX and NC.

"If we can't respond faster than this to an event we saw coming across the Gulf for days, then why do we think we're prepared to respond to a nuclear or biological attack?" asked former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, a Republican.

The answer to that is we aren't any more prepared today to deal with it than we were 4 years ago. Taken from a different forum.

Taken from a different forum.

Well I didn't read the whole thread but FEMA is fine for natural dissasters..... take Florida for example... hurricane came, hurricane left, tons of food water and help came in...

Now take New Orleans, hurricane came, hurricane went, flood water rose, help started to come in as it could then had to leave because they needed 40 thousand troops to keep the peace and protect the people who are trying to save their asses.

Yes I live in the Baton Rouge area and have watched my local politicians make fools of themselves. FEMA seems to work well in all other areas of the country but not when the locals are trying to kill the people who are attempting to help.

Thank GOD Jessie Jackson is here to straighten things out.

EDIT: wanted to add in here that when my wife and I made rounds at the evacuations sites and the local churchs (5 that we went to daily) we met people from all over the US that dropped what they were doing to come to Louisiana to help. I'm talking SanFran, Montana, New York PA and other places that were working with the Red Cross. That is what FEMA is for. Not armed incursions into a United States city. It was very hectic during the first few days but has calmed down alot since. It is still a catastrophic event and made me remember how lucky I am to have what I do and that it can be gone pretty quick.

here is the link for the people who asked... nothing big about it just a view of someone I know in another forum i visit .. that make sense?

http://www.bpark3.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=29919#29919

From a Newsweek reporter:

The ugliest moment I think I witnessed was a white river taxi service operator who goes up and down the Mississippi river saying some very harsh and really inhuman things about some of his fellow black residents of New Orleans. When he went into St. Bernard parish, down river from New Orleans, to rescue refugees and bring them back out of the flooding to dry land. Every single refugee that I saw him bringing out of St. Bernard parish was white. Bar none. That's his perogative as a private businessman who operates a river taxi ervice without any government subsidy whatsoever but I think his language and the racial discrimination he practiced in rescuing people are very revealing.
From Barbara Bush:
What I'm hearing which is sort of scary is that they all want to stay in Texas. Everybody is so overhwlemed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway so this (chuckle)--this is working very well for them.
Racism exists, and those who hew to it will act out their prejudices as they can. Is there anything we can do about it right now? I doubt it, but pretending it's not there or that mentioning it is a bad thing only abets its practitioners.

I don't think it's exactly fair to try and peg the high-level Federal stupidity as racism when it's clearly just neocon incompetence and hubris. The real racial problem in this disaster stems from a much older, deeper problem about the economoy and education levels in LA and MS outside of the few concentrations of money (and white people). Those are perhaps two of the poorest states in the nation, and if not for New Orleans, Louisiana's portion of the national identity would be little more than a string of homogenously garrish casinos and refineries along IH10. I've been through backwater Louisiana, and about the only places I can compare them to would be in South America. What we consider modern American civilization has largely passed these areas by, if any good comes of the hurricane it may be an elevation of this issue in the national conscience.

The racism that results from this situation isn't really surprising. I can't particularly blame a taxi driver for thinking of the blacks there as uncivilized and undesirable, because they basically aren't. I may personally deplore the attitude, but it's likely one born of experience and who of us could honestly say we'd be any better if we were in the same situation? Poverty does horrible things to people.

I suspect many of the residents evacuated from the hurricane area will not be moving back, and it will be interesting to see the effects of this impromptu migration in eastern Texas, northwest Florida, and other nearby states as we take in the displaced.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/katrina/looters.asp
It's probably irrevelant (as stated by Barbara's article, one photograph saw the guy entering and "looting" the shop, while the other just caught people "finding" groceries floating out a grocery), sadly it can easily fuel racism. As many won't take the time to research conditions of shootings, they will just take this as race oriented news.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibudin
This is not about RACE.


From the thread starter:
Actually, this thread is only about RACE, as it relates to the areas of discussion in the opening post of the thread. For two and a half hours this morning in the post office, these were the topics people were talking about; once I was out delivering mail, these were the most common things customers on my route were talking about; these are the things I am seeing in the newspapers and on television news programs being discussed by people in government as well as people on the street.

So yes, it IS unfortunately about RACE.




Rice, the highest ranking black official in the Bush administration, defended national race relations saying the United States "is about 100 percent ahead of anyplace else in the world in issues of race."

"And I say that absolutely, fundamentally," she said. "You go to any other meeting around the world and show me the kind of diversity that you see in America's Cabinet, in America's foreign service, in America's business community, in America's journalistic community.

"Show me that kind of diversity anyplace else in the world, and I'm prepared to be lectured about race."



Interesting. I'll take what Rice has to say over anyone else in most cases.

The problem is, in the eye's of the people that got left behind, it IS about race. Our race relations took a hit in this country because of this, whether the poor response was really about race or not. Perception is 9/10ths reality. Public opinion polls (I'll get the link later) show that 70% of black americans feel that race played a role in the slow response. Whether it did or not isn't really the issue. If the people that were affected think it was about race, then we have a problem. Even if race played no part, their perception could hurt race relations. 70% of black americans (yeah I know polls can be wrong) feeling that race was an issue is something that needs to be addressed. When 50-80 million people (this doesn't include the 40% of white americans that feel race played a part) have a problem with how something is being handled it should at least be looked into and addressed.

PEW poll results can be found here. (http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=255)

Nothing unexpected, really, but it does demonstrate racial perceptions of disparity in the handling of the disaster.

When you are on the receiving end of racism, you are much more sensitive to it. Frankly, there have been instances during Katrina where it became a factor in local rescue priorities. It didn't help when the TV images that were coming out of NO were of minority looters/lawbreakers with very few white faces.

That being said, the overall support of ordinary Americans to help the victims clearly shows that it is not the overriding factor nationwide. The problem is that part of the country has long lagged the rest in race relations and economic development and the current conditions have exasperated the problem.

In the big picture, the biggest issue I have seen is simply one of incompetence in managing a crisis of this magnitude by a large number of government officials (both local and federal). In the case of federal, IMO they would be equally incompetent if the crisis were in some other location with a smaller minority population. I don't for a minute think Brown botched the job because he hates blacks, but I do think he botched the job because he was underqualified and in way over his head.

You wanna talk racism, I have a student who is French- African - American, who if you correct him he will say its because hes black. its never about the fact that he did something wrong its that hes black. I teach students who are white, asian, latino, black, blue it doesnt matter. Race releation in this country are effected by both side, the racist and the other side, but when both side perpetuate a steroe type or attempt to make everything about race it does nothing to improve the situation only makes folks more desensitized to it. I dont care if you are white, asian, latino, black or purple you come into my school you get treated the same they are just americans , not affrican americans, latin americans or anything else just americans.

To many people in this country stereotype all kinds of folks. The person I mentioned aboves father also is one of my students, and as a class we were talking about the race relations and he said something very pointed. there are blacks, whites, hispanics etc in race and then there are Nigers, Crackers, Spics, Slant eyes pick your favorite racial slur in the communities. These are a sub set of people who prefer to think they are entitled to somehting without work, or because of the color of thier skin. These are the people that are hurting race relations, not the average person who doesnt give two cents what coloryour skin is, just that you do you job and do it well or a good neighbor and friend.

Like I tell everyone I am a racist, I hate everyone equally who earn my dislike.

Rev

I'll take what Rice has to say over anyone else in most cases.

I am in agreement with ya on this one, as I consider her to be an extremely knowledgable person in her areas of expertise, as well as a role model to anyone who has a desire to excel (there is much more to this lady than just being Secretary of State).

What I am not clear on, Ibudin, is why you are unwilling to read the opening post of this thread, and instead continue to push your idea that race is not an issue. I started the thread because race was a large part of what I was hearing people talk about in the community, and it has been a very obvious factor in the news reports, whether televison or print.

If you insist that it is up to you to determine what a thread is about, go start one and set the topic. This thread is about RACE, and about what we as a country have done wrong in the years since LBJ was in office that has allowed pockets of poverty to continue in cities like New Orleans which everyone is now blatantly made aware of, and what possible effects this is going to have in the coming months.

Yes, as pointed out by Ms. Rice we as a nation are much farther ahead then many other countries in our race relations. That we have further to go is glaringly obvious to most. So I invite discussion.

does there still exist these pockets of poor living in all of our major cities and what is being done to raise their standards of living;

I live on the edge of the most segregated city in this country and the 4th poorest as well.

What is being done to help the situation? How many years do we need to hold their hands and show them how to live?

How many times do they need to be shown..use protection during sex and quit having 4+ childeren when you can't even muster the energy to make enough money to feed yourself? My wife and I would love to have 4..hell even 6 childeren but we simply cannot afford that yet they go at like rats with no repercussions. I am talking about whites, hispanics, african-americans+ here by the way..each and everyone of them.

I drive 25 miles each day to work and pull into an industrial park that has had 4 signs of buisnesses hiring all summer long. The company I work for has had hiring signs up for almost the entire 16 years ive been working for them..(and well take people with out an education or high school deploma ..but you have to pass the drug test) yet those positions go unfilled year in and year out. My company used to offer a free bus service from the inter city. That worked for about 1 year till there was no more passengers to take to work (they didnt want to work any more). They offered interest free $2000 car loans to those in need (if they couldnt afford a car they could now)..still I see more and more migrant workers coming all the way from Poland and Mexico to fill our manufacturing spots..hmm the African American populous is nill? Why is that? Keep in mind this is a great job, just not any..some of the best health benefits around, if you want an education they will pay for it, huge retirement benefits..Maybe its me but the ones I see crying racisim are the ones who simply don't have a will to be a productive member in society.

You tell me what is being done Bylimet that hasn't been done a million timee already.

What is being done to help the situation? How many years do we need to hold their hands and show them how to live?

You tell me what is being done Bylimet that hasn't been done a million timee already.

If I thought I had all the answers, I never would have asked for discussion. It is easier now, though, to understand your apparent antagonism toward the subject. You have a success story like Ms. Rice on the one hand and all those folks with too many children and no desire to work living in your area of employment on the other, and you seemingly judge the rest against those two standards.

I don't know if those folks living in New Orleans and too poor to evacuate (as we are told) have the job opportunities that you say exist in your area, or whether they would take them if they did. I don't know if those mothers we see surrounded by five, six or more children are avoiding birth control options due to their religious upbringing or mere ignorance, or if they in fact are having the children simply as a means to a larger check on the first of the month.

What I do know is that the perception continues to exist among a large portion of the black population as well as a significant portion of the white population that there is a racial divide, that discrimination still exists albeit more often in subtler forms than what we saw thirty years ago, and that if the black leadership continue to spin the tragedies still unfolding from Katrina as having any racial basis at all that there is the potential for a major political movement that could turn the current administration on it's ear.

Unfortunately, there are too many who consider it hand-holding to look for ways to change the current culture. One way that the culture was changed somewhat in Minnesota and Wisconsin was with the imposition of an end-date for welfare benefits; i.e., you will no longer receive benefits after xx/xx date, so what assistance do you need to prepare yourself for that. When someone applies for welfare, they no longer have an open ended cornucopia of goodies, and forget about having more children while on welfare to raise the check. What they do get along with their benefits is job training, child care options, etc.

I cannot give you an answer why the folks you point at as not being willing to take the jobs are making that choice. Have you ever thought of asking some of them?

Not gonna go through all the race card playing but I found this funny :p

Thank GOD Jessie Jackson is here to straighten things out.


In 1994, my home town was 80% underwater. Jessie came and tried to lead a march how the "white" man flooded the "black" side of town. He left when his march drew less than 100 folks.

An interesting editorial in the local paper a few months later, after a tornado hit, asked if Jessie was gonna come march cuz the tornado hit the wrong side of town. ;)