As proud as Barack would be to have won because of sexism.


Hillary has just as much of a advantage to win based on sexism as Barack.

this will probably start a huge tangent but IMO Racism larger disadvantage than sexism.

Nydia will have your head on a platter, presently, Grey.....

Hah :) I don't hit Nuggets that often, but having spent my childhood prior to age 10 in the deep South, I can't say that I'm that surprised by those results.

To address Greystone's post (and I did much more throughly in another thread a month or so back), I think the difference in *this* age is that we look at those blatant displays of racism and ignorance and laugh at or decry them; they're clearly regarded by the vast majority of the population as unacceptable. Yet more or less blatant applications of sexism *have* been allowed to get a free pass, and furthermore, be expressed openly on the mainstream media, and whether you like Hillary or not, there's no question that she's been subjected to some of this form of sexism throughout the campaign. When people tell interviewers they don't like Hillary because she's 'dykey and wears pantsuits' (my sister), or express outrage at tactics earlier in the primary season that wouldn't even have raised an eyebrow had they come from a male candidate, what are they expressing outrage at, really?

That's not to say that there aren't voters who, in their heart of hearts, might not be as 'honest' as these folks on the video (with regard to racism) and yet harbor those types of opinions, but as I mentioned in the other thread, it's a lot easier for us to identify and decry racism as the poisonous beast that it is because it really doesn't involve any real work for most of us (it's easy to trumpet one's egalitarian stance when one doesn't have to intimately interact or compete with the other groups, for example, although this just scratches the surface), whereas gender dynamics and sexism are more problematic in that everyone has a mother or sister or daughter, and any change in the status or perception of what women are/can do affects everyone in the society (and thus requires *direct*, instead of abstract, accommodation) directly.

Regards,
Nydia

And, did Jedd just make a funny? ;)

And, did Jedd just make a funny? ;)

You don't think women voting for hillary just cause she is a women, is as powerful as Black people voting for Obama just because he is black?

If we're going to get into that debate, we should split this, but I wasn't addressing that issue in my reply - I was stating that sexism has been getting a pass in a way that racism has not in the way the campaign has been publicly acted out (not that racism isn't happening). In other words, it's 'not okay' (to most educated people) to apply racist judgements to Obama in the public media and elsewhere, but it 'is okay' to apply a sexist double standard to Hillary's appearance and behavior (in other words, treat those differently than they might be treated from a male candidate).

I have not seen it, and am so tired of hearing its there. I would love to see some examples Nydia

You don't think women voting for hillary just cause she is a women, is as powerful as Black people voting for Obama just because he is half black?


Fixed.....:devil

?

That was so important osg...

Done stalking me yet?


LOL, are you now immune from having someone who usually disagrees with you posting replies to your posts? Is everyone who sees an inane post by you or someone else and responds to it going to have to worry about being called a stalker? Are you stalking Osg?

You made a point in your post to Nydia that said you are tired of hearing about sexism, and asked for examples. We have seen years worth of you disregarding or flat out ignoring examples on any range of topics that you have a set opinion on, so why should folks bother anymore? Does my pointing that out make me a stalker?

Because you do not see something due to your tunnel vision does not mean others are not seeing it. It has been written about in the papers and discussed in the television media, so I doubt it is just Nydia or me or the few folks left here who are not rabidly dribbling on their chins at the mention of Obama. But keep it loose, jedd; you might convert us yet.


Edit: One of the most flagrantly sexist examples was how she was dealt with after her "choking up" in New Hampshire, compared to how the media and pundits have dealt with Bush, or his father, or Bill C when they have "choked up".

LOL, are you now immune from having someone who usually disagrees with you posting replies to your posts? Is everyone who sees an inane post by you or someone else and responds to it going to have to worry about being called a stalker? Are you stalking Osg?

You made a point in your post to Nydia that said you are tired of hearing about sexism, and asked for examples. We have seen years worth of you disregarding or flat out ignoring examples on any range of topics that you have a set opinion on, so why should folks bother anymore? Does my pointing that out make me a stalker?

Because you do not see something due to your tunnel vision does not mean others are not seeing it. It has been written about in the papers and discussed in the television media, so I doubt it is just Nydia or me or the few folks left here who are not rabidly dribbling on their chins at the mention of Obama. But keep it loose, jedd; you might convert us yet.


Edit: One of the most flagrantly sexist examples was how she was dealt with after her "choking up" in New Hampshire, compared to how the media and pundits have dealt with Bush, or his father, or Bill C when they have "choked up".

You have done nothing but try and argue that I am worthless and that I am stupid, and spent 0 time actually proving shit. Go back to your hole... Osg posts nonsense where I posted a fact and you jump on me for calling him on it.

Go get on someone else's balls... I am getting tired of you weighing mine down.

ROFLMAO!

The sexism you are tired of hearing about because you have not seen it is the topic right now on Hardball on MSNBC. How ironic.

And to avoid appearing sexist myself, I will not debate the inferred possibility that you actually have balls.

ROFLMAO!

The sexism you are tired of hearing about because you have not seen it is the topic right now on Hardball on MSNBC. How ironic.

And to avoid appearing sexist myself, I will not debate the inferred possibility that you actually have balls.

It is bullshit... Hillary crying gets negative attention because SHE IS USING THE FACT THAT SHE IS A WOMAN CRYING to gain sympathy. The only sexism I fucking see is people buying this bullshit and blaming Obama, like its his fault.

It is bullshit... Hillary crying gets negative attention because SHE IS USING THE FACT THAT SHE IS A WOMAN CRYING to gain sympathy. The only sexism I fucking see is people buying this bullshit and blaming Obama, like its his fault.

And that is what is sad. I have not heard anyone say anything blaming Obama, but instead keep pointing at the media and commentators. Your blinders have you so locked in to see only what you want to see, that you are unable to see anything.

But please, as you asked of Nydia, I will ask of you. Examples please, of Obama being blamed for the sexism.


And out of curiosity, isn't it sexist to say SHE IS USING THE FACT THAT SHE IS A WOMAN CRYING to gain sympathy?

She is using the crying to get sympathy from women voters. Look at when/where she is doing it for fuck's sake.

At this leg of the game its really a moot point, Obama will undoubtedly win the nomination. However, I'm sure both sides got hit with a lot of sexism or racism and still will throughout the rest of their campaign. I know people who won't vote for Obama because he's black. I know people who won't vote for Hillary because she's a woman. I also know tons who are voting for their candidate because they are black/female.

If I was to think of which was more of a factor I'd imagine Obama is the underdog. We all know a few women, probably at least half of the people we know. We have female examples of leadership at home from our grandmother and our mother, in social settings through our friends, in school through our peers, and at work through our bosses. Blacks are called a minority because that's what they are while females are a majority. There are plenty of towns without a black person for miles and the only exposure people in these town gets are episodes of Cops or Chris Rock yelling about "crackers".

What we have to remember is it isn't a white woman and a black man running, its Hillary Clinton and Barak Obama. There's a lot more to these people than gender and hue ... and that's why one is ahead of the other, not because of their disadvantages.

... but anyone who votes for McCain over Obama is a slavery loving racist ;)

She is using the crying to get sympathy from women voters. Look at when/where she is doing it for fuck's sake.

Like jedd, you miss the point.

It was not about her crying, it was about how the media portrayed and discussed the incident that was considered sexist. They gave it a much different slant than when a male politician shows emotion.

And the whole point is to try, in vain, naturally, to get jedd to see an example of what he claims he does not see.

Like jedd, you miss the point.

It was not about her crying, it was about how the media portrayed and discussed the incident that was considered sexist. They gave it a much different slant than when a male politician shows emotion.

And the whole point is to try, in vain, naturally, to get jedd to see an example of what he claims he does not see.

You yourself have a point that does not exist. The media did not do anything abnormal in discussing Hillary's crying moment. She cried and got the reaction she wanted... "I am a sensitive woman and need your sympathy cause this job is so so hard"

You are the one that is missing the point. There is no sexism that you can find that is clear sexism. Only what you wish you could call sexism, cause it sounds close.

I'm voting for Obama because his uncle was in one of the first US Army units to knock down the gates of Buchenwald and liberate the prisoners of that concentration camp. His family background is such that shows he has the same DNA as a true war hero. That's why I'm voting for him.

You yourself have a point that does not exist. The media did not do anything abnormal in discussing Hillary's crying moment. She cried and got the reaction she wanted... "I am a sensitive woman and need your sympathy cause this job is so so hard"

You are the one that is missing the point. There is no sexism that you can find that is clear sexism. Only what you wish you could call sexism, cause it sounds close.


Wow over the top sexism. Whats next, maybe it was that time of the month? First it was age with you, now its about the sex...but the only thing that is true bigotry is when someone picks on the skin pigmentation lol.

You yourself have a point that does not exist. The media did not do anything abnormal in discussing Hillary's crying moment. She cried and got the reaction she wanted... "I am a sensitive woman and need your sympathy cause this job is so so hard"

You are the one that is missing the point. There is no sexism that you can find that is clear sexism. Only what you wish you could call sexism, cause it sounds close.

Thanks for continuing to validate my points for me jedd. Considering Hardball spent a good portion of yesterday's 60 minute segment talking about this very thing, it must be just me, and they are taking their cues from what I post.

I am glad you were not around to jump on Jim Jones' bandwagon; as rabidly as you are wanting to say anything not praising Obama is bullshit (even if it is not at all about Obama) you would have been one of those fighting your way to the front of the line for Jimmy's kool-aid. Of course, that would have saved some headaches, but would also have taken away a few good debates.

Sorry, I am not sexist, and having a deep love for women, from my mother to my girlfriend I did not see any sexism of any sort other then perhaps women voting for Hillary because she is a woman.

The news has discussed sexism as of late only because Hillary and Bill have accused the media of Sexism, and therefore their ridiculous claim is now news. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Wanna talk about sexism?

I drove by the hotel where the DNC rules committee was deciding what to do with Michigan and Florida votes. There were tons of protesters all for Hillary. I didn't see one male out there.

Out of all the people I know who have an interest in this election, I know only a handful of Hillary supporters. One of them is a male.

My point? Women are voting for Hillary because... she's qualified?

Hah. No. They are voting for her because she is a woman.

So, would someone please explain to me how that is not sexism, merely in the other direction?

Well Ain, it's kinda of like Affirmitive Action is not racism in reverse.

Um, I think a lot of people would consider affirmative action to be reverse-racism.

The fact of the matter is a lot of Clinton supporters are ready to paint everyone who doesn't vote for her as a sexist, when they obviously chose her based solely on the face that she is female.

It is really hypocritical. I don't like Clinton, but it has nothing to do with the fact that she is a female. I try to pick my candidate based on the issues, which is more than I can say for most Clinton supporters.

The fact of the matter is a lot of Clinton supporters are ready to paint everyone who doesn't vote for her as a sexist, when they obviously chose her based solely on the face that she is female.




This is an interesting argument, and one I have not seen given much discussion. Do you have anything to back this up, or reference so I can look at it further?

The sexism I was willing to discuss regarding jedd challenging Nydia was that of the media in the manner they were handling certain elements of their coverage of Clinton; an issue that even the media has discussed.

Having watched Chris Mathews and his panel discussing varied examples of this gave it some validation in my eyes; more validity definitely than those arguments of a few people on the boards, who publicly state they hate or at the least dislike the candidate, wanting to simply fling poo because she is continuing to take valuable time away from Obama being able to focus on the general election.

This has been one of the greatest election primary seasons in my memory, because there are new elements involved, finally. We finally have reached the stage in our history that a viable candidate need not be white and/or male. Sadly, rather than that giving people cause to celebrate, it has apparently further divided people. Racism and sexism are both alive and well and contributing to this election.

I've seen the same trend that Ain is refering to when I've talked to women who are Clinton supporters. they all throw out the well known media "talking points" as why they support her.
When you try to get into the deeper issues of Hilliary the majority of them actually know little about the issues or her experiance. when i point what i percieve as her negatives the "sexist" defense is all they can offer up.

Ain I think you mispercieved the sarcasm intended in my previous reply.

I've seen the same trend that Ain is refering to when I've talked to women who are Clinton supporters.


And, I have talked with a number of black folks (being my family is made up of half African-American, I am able to get a lot of diverse opinions) who have stated they are voting for Obama because they finally have a chance to have one of their own running the country. But I don't consider this racist, anymore than I consider women wanting to vote for Clinton to break through that wall as sexist.

It is when you treat someone according to a sterotype that you are getting into the -ism field, whether it be racism or sexism. The media, as discussed by the media itself, has on occasion fallen into treating Clinton according to female stereo-typing, with regard to how she dresses, her emotions, her forcefulness and/or ambition, and so on. It does not need to be viewed as ammunition to use for attack; it is simply a side discussion of a reality that some have been acknowledging and discussing.

And no, jedd, I have not seen anyone accuse Obama of doing it or condoning it or doing anything at all that you can say he is being attacked for with regard to it, so you don't need to get all uptight again.

I think it's retarded to vote for someone based on the color of their skin or their sex. Anyone who is arguing about the equal capability of these candidates immediately damns their argument when they go down this road.

Women voting for Hillary is going to have much more of an impact than African-Americans voting for Obama, simply because there are a ton more of them and they come out in much greater numbers.

As Velvet pointed out, what is obnoxious is that they will come after you for being a sexist if you demonstrate any reluctance to consider Hillary as a viable candidate, when they are the ones who are using it as such a strong determining factor.

Given the wide variety of support that Obama enjoys, I simply don't see the same things happening in regards to his race. His supporters are much more heterogeneous than Clinton's.

Given the wide variety of support that Obama enjoys, I simply don't see the same things happening in regards to his race. His supporters are much more heterogeneous than Clinton's.


True! He has made a strong effort to appeal to all groups, and were there not a woman running in the contest I do not doubt he would have many of those supporting Clinton among his followers.

The thing that continues to bug me, almost to the point of getting downright pissed about it at times, is the number of people saying they would vote for McCain rather than the opposing Democrat, whether it be Obama or Clinton. These people are stating quite plainly that they are voting for a personality, and not for the change from the Bush policies they are complaining about. They are phony hypocrites, in my eyes. And, they are contributing to the divisions that the Bush-Cheney-Rove model strove so hard to create, which does no good for the country at all.

So does he have more men backing him b/c he's a man and not a woman? The color of skin doesn't really matter as much these days as it used to. But I think the fact it's male vs. female is more significant though I can't prove it and don't really know why I feel that way.

I'm still uncertain where I land with these two. I don't have warm fuzzies for either of them and really wish Paul would be on the ticket.

True! He has made a strong effort to appeal to all groups, and were there not a woman running in the contest I do not doubt he would have many of those supporting Clinton among his followers.

The thing that continues to bug me, almost to the point of getting downright pissed about it at times, is the number of people saying they would vote for McCain rather than the opposing Democrat, whether it be Obama or Clinton. These people are stating quite plainly that they are voting for a personality, and not for the change from the Bush policies they are complaining about. They are phony hypocrites, in my eyes. And, they are contributing to the divisions that the Bush-Cheney-Rove model strove so hard to create, which does no good for the country at all.

I'm not so sure any of these candidates are much of a change. All of them have shown they play the same fargn Washington beltway politics.

Would it be ludicrous to say :
There are probably as many people voting for Obama because Clinton is a female as people voting for Clinton for the same reason, because if gender distribution is globally even for both sexes across voters, it seems logical to think that as many women would vote for a woman as men wouldn't vote for a woman.

There are probably MORE people voting for Clinton because Obama is black than people voting for him for the same reason, because if you follow the same logic I used for sex, there are less black people voting for Obama because he's black than white people not voting for him for his skin color.

It's all gut feelings of course, and beside morons from 1st thread, nobody would really admit voting for someone for those reasons.
I think like Byli that racism and sexism are rampant and clouding judgement and voting behavior for some people, but in the whole scheme of elections, there are insignificant, and candidates' actions/ideas speak for them, at least for the majority of the voting crowd.

http://www.twincities.com/ci_9480422?IADID=Search-www.twincities.com-www.twincities.com


While I realize there are those who adamantly refuse to accept the possibility, it is an interesting study that was written about in support of the theory that sexism played a part in this campaign.