Suprised this isn't bigger news here in the US. 6 nights of rioting in a growing number of Frence cities.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/10/31/france.riots.reut/

We have anyone from France that still peruses this? I realize Kinuvan has long left us for greener pastures.

Fandros

French's, and especially Paris', suburbs were/are big powder barrels.

It often happened after some young from there is killed "because" of the Police (fleeing, mistakes, or blatant racist acts) that violence rise.
But here we are getting a new level, "civil war" isn't far from reality.

Afaik those current riots only take place around Paris, but with nowaday's tension, it could easily spreads in other big cities' suburbs.

Eh, why? What is so big that would cause civil war?

Guess I need to read the article huh? And ask my sister in law who is from Nice if she knows anything.

Read this one as well, more infos on the subject.
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/02/france.riots/index.html

Ewww.
Luckily you're further south Anterak, is any of it down that way yet?

Nope, thanks for the concern. :)

We have had our share of "suburbs' vibrations", like people throwing rocks at firemen (sic) or burned cars, but nothing of this scale. Yet. :(

Just looks like Lansing Michigan after Michigan State wins or loses a big game, heh.

It is a scary situation, with the center of the problem being around religion ( chiefly muslim neighborhods).

I know France has been working to find a fine line to deal with their growing Muslim populace. I gather the Muslims are taking umbrage with how they are(n't) being integrated into France.

Fandros

When I lived in Dijon, there were several areas where the Muslim population outnumbered any other 'ethinicity' by 100 to 1 or more. There are frikken tons of Arabs all over the place in France.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/03/france.riots/index.html

It continues, serious help is needed here I think. Tho I'd wager France is taking an internal dispute only on this thing.

I've lived in europe for a few years in the 80's and have to assume the boarders are still pretty open there.

Could this spill over to Germany etc etc>?

Fandros

Jean-Louis Borloo, minister for social cohesion, said officials need to react "firmly" to the unrest but that France also must acknowledge its failure to deal with decades of simmering anger in the impoverished suburbs of Paris.
If they have this kind of immigration "parks", where anger fills upon itself everyday, and nothing is *really* done to deal with (reaction rather than prevention in most cases), I guess any country can face this kind of riots.

More maghrebeen (sp, people from northen africa) rather than arabic Elemak, due to long ties between those countries and France (especially Algeria), those immigrants are the majority.

Tal..

Just looks like Lansing Michigan after Michigan State wins or loses a big game, heh


Hey, when we do something at MSU, we do it right...

It really was an embarrassing moment for East Lansing. Most of the people involved were not even from Michigan State... Kinda like the "terrorists" in Iraq.. outsiders

Tal..


Hey, when we do something at MSU, we do it right...

It really was an embarrassing moment for East Lansing. Most of the people involved were not even from Michigan State... Kinda like the "terrorists" in Iraq.. outsiders

Usually the case. It is like Halloween mayhem in Wisconsin, and most of the arrests for drunk and disorderly are Minnesota college students that went there to party.

Sounds like the majority are dissaffected muslim youth. And from what I gather they are a growing minority.

Fandros

*Shrug* Ancterak, they always described themselves as being Arab, but yeah tons of people from Algeria, and Morroco too. And I wouldn't exactly call them a minority, because there were plenty of them around when i was there, and that was a few years ago now too.

I remember a time when America helped France before. Think we got a big statue out of the deal. Only cost us forty thousand lives?

:devil

This situation points to some of the reasoning, possibly, that was used by the French in not wanting to side with us in our plans for Iraq; the Muslim population in the U.S. is not a visible presence on the scale it is in France, and if the riots occur over a couple deaths as in this situation and previously, one could only expect a serious uprising would take place if France had become an active partner in a coalition to invade the home of one of Islam's holiest places.

The choice may have been as simple as:1) antagonize an ally across the sea; or, 2) antagonize an overwhelmingly large portion of the population at home?

A coworker has a sister living in France, and visits her every few years. The last visit was four years ago, and he says that even then there were areas that seemed incredibly tense, much like some of our cities and certain neighborhoods in the late 60's during the civil rights era.

I empathize with their dilemna, and hope folks keep safe.

*Shrug* Ancterak, they always described themselves as being ArabYeah I know, "arab" became the kind of insult you are proud to be, most of them don't make the difference between arab and muslim.
I'm probably more arabic (even if born in France, my parents are from Lebanon) than those africans. ;)

Byl this possibility could be valid *if* France didn't help invade Iraq 14 years ago. (let's not get back into good/bad reasons to go, we have plenty of threads for that)

A coworker has a sister living in France, and visits her every few years. The last visit was four years ago, and he says that even then there were areas that seemed incredibly tense, much like some of our cities and certain neighborhoods in the late 60's during the civil rights era.Right on the nail. That's the main problem of french "ghettos". Mentalities didn't change since half 70s (oil crisis), immigrant workers were fine when money and work were there, now we are in trouble hmmm let's park them *there*.

And to finish, what's your point Trikki?
You don't look that old on your pics to remember those events, I thought the gift was made when frenchs helped americans, and are you training your speach for iraqis if they ever disagree with you?? :confused:
Oh btw, what's your point?

Just for the record, the Statue of Liberty was a gift from France to America on our 100th year of independance from Brittan. It was deemed "...a lasting memorial to independence..." it "showed that the French government was also dedicated to the idea of human liberty."

Just for the record, the Statue of Liberty was a gift from France to America on our 100th year of independance from Brittan. It was deemed "...a lasting memorial to independence..." it "showed that the French government was also dedicated to the idea of human liberty."

It was also an immense thumbing of the nose at the British!

My understanding of that period in time must be a bit hazy... what exactly did the French have to thank us for at that time?

The US (and the Union during the Civil War) and France had a number of alliances of convenience against Britain, but I don't recall the Statue of Liberty ever being mentioned as specific thanks for anything. Blacks should certainly thank France for qualifying their support for the Union on the elimination of slavery though, as European pressure was what forced Lincoln to issue the emancipation proclamation. I suspect that sort of vive liberty mentality in the "long summer of peace" in Europe had a lot to do with it.

I guess it seems to me that, at that point, we probably "owed" France a lot more than they "owed" us.

Here you go:
French sculptor Frederic Auguste Bartholdi was commissioned to design a sculpture with the year 1876 in mind for completion, to commemorate the centennial of the American Declaration of Independence. Bartholdi had previously prepared, in 1869 a scale model of a giant statue of a lady holding a torch, for the entry of the recently built Suez Canal. The idea for the commemorative gift grew out of the political turmoil which was shaking France at the time. The French Third Republic was still considered as a "temporary" arrangement by many, who wished a returned to monarchism, or to some form of constitutional dictatorship which they had known under Napoleon I of France. The idea of giving a colossal representation of republican virtues to a "sister" republic across the sea served as a focus for the republican cause against other political opponents.
The wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_liberty) is a fairly interesting read.

Of course, I'd call anything an interesting read as long as it contained Planet of the Apes references.

Back to muslim rioting...

Question for Anterak or anyone keeping a closer eye on this than I am: Is the rioting exclusively from the Muslim community, or is there a significant contingent of non-Muslims joining in the unrest?

The hard part about trying to follow this thing is...depending on which news outlet you read things from you get a different slant. What the hell is going on lol.

Question for Anterak or anyone keeping a closer eye on this than I am: Is the rioting exclusively from the Muslim community, or is there a significant contingent of non-Muslims joining in the unrest?

Maybe they think the French are infidels?

Maybe they think the French are infidels?

Infidel defiliers! :D

Rep hit for anyone that gets that =D

Didn't Thulsa Doom say that in Conan the Barbarian? Think it was the second installment of the govenator playing Conan.

Fandros

Didn't Thulsa Doom say that in Conan the Barbarian? Think it was the second installment of the govenator playing Conan.

Fandros

Yes he did! but it was the first movie. Inc rep to fanny!:devil

The Arabs in France are still pissed off over Charles Martel :D

Yes he did! but it was the first movie. Inc rep to fanny!:devil

Rep hit to Chan for his trivia knowledge.

But Chan, you HAVE TO get out of the house more often, seriously:p

Rep hit to Chan for his trivia knowledge.

But Chan, you HAVE TO get out of the house more often, seriously:p

Im at werk right now! :D Tried to rep you but it said no.

Good times, noodle salad.

Infidel defiliers! :D

Rep hit for anyone that gets that =D

My dad took me and my brother to see that at the movies when we were like 9 years old.... he freaked out when they showed Arnold humping that witch.!!! haha...

We begged and begged to go because we were into D&D ..... he broke down and let us see it and we got to see some humpin!

Im at werk right now!

Speaking of work, Ryan is a part-time floor supervisor/part-time Texas Hold-em dealer at Treasure Island Casino now, in case ya ever get to the Hastings, MN area. He still plays WoW now and then on Thunderlord server, Barlow - 60 dorf rogue.

Little sucker makes almost as much as his old man now:rolleyes:

(Sorry for derail)

Back on topic, on tonight's news they were interviewing some folks in France and it sounds like there is a pretty serious race division going on there, much like the southern states of the U.S. a while back (and still, in some places).

Complaints that landlords won't rent to people from African nations in the Paris area, stuff like that. I have a hunch we will be hearing more of these stories, and seeing more riots during the coming year, if that is true. Also, the job market being so poor is always fuel for those looking for reasons to get nuts, and if the race/religion card becomes part of the unemployment/housing issue then we may yet see the peasants rising up yet again against the aristocracy in France.

http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/urbang/articles/20051104.aspx
Many of the Moslem migrants, who began to appear in large numbers four decades ago, have not assimilated. Europe has long tolerated this, partly because of a belief in “Multiculturalism” and partly because Europe does not have a tradition of assimilation. This is in stark contrast to the United States, where the “melting pot,” while often operating more like a salad bowl, still results in far less ghettoization than is found in Europe. Another advantage America has is that, in many parts of the country, there are so many migrants that “everyone is a minority.” In Europe, homogeneity is preferred, and those who do not conform, are simply tolerated (and sometimes not) as “outsiders in residence.” That’s where the concept of “ghetto” came from in the first place. The ghetto is quite common the world over, but much less so in America...

Unemployment is high. The European governments tried to paper this over with generous welfare and jobless benefits. But this just turned the government into the payroll department for the local branch of al Qaeda.

After September 11, 2001, when European intelligence agencies took a real close look at their Moslem populations, they were shocked at the percentage that approved of, or supported, Islamic terrorism. It was as high as ten percent in some countries. It was higher among the young, and often unemployed, Moslem males. The riots currently underway in France, Denmark and Britain are all an extension of that. No one has a solution to the problem, except to arrest the hard cases and try to make nice to everyone else. If that doesn’t work, the fires will spread.

Lack of assimilation was one reason put forward as to why home grown British Moslems would be willing to plant bombs in London earlier this year. Feeling like your home town is foreign territory is not conducive to feelings of sympathy and nationalism with your fellow Brits/French/etc. So, is France looking at placation? Mass arrests and tear gas?

They'll probably placate the rioters. It'll die down temporarily.

Give France several years, though, and the friction will get Le Pen or someone in a similar vein elected.

Now the violence has hit 300 French cities as well as spread beyond their boarders. It's also had it's first fatality. ;(


http://www.yahoo.com/s/241863

Perhaps the Maginot line will stop them!!

Fandros

300 cities and only one dead???? Damn, what are they rioting with.... Nerf bats????

Nerf bats and toenail clippers?

Got ugly last night, tho the link claims car bombings and cities rioting are down.


Last night they bombed a subway, looted two superstores and burnt down a newspaper building.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,175006,00.html

They did make some smart moves I think. With a curfew, shutting down incendiary bloggers and some vague social promises.

Fandros

Seems like only a matter of time before France has its own London subway/Spanish train/WTC attack. =/

I always thought they'd be safe from that by in large. Seeing as they play a softer role against terrorism in the global eye.

Fandros

That's because playing nice to fanaticism doesn't score you any points in the long run.

That's because playing nice to fanaticism doesn't score you any points in the long run.

On this, I must agree. France and other neutral countries will eventually find out what it is like. Being naive doesn't protect you.

my only question is when will France surrender...


ok, back on subject

I am still really amazed that this whole thing started because 2 teens were fried while hiding in a substation. I know the whole poverty, jobless, and multitude of other things, but that cannot be the first time someone died running from the cops.. there has to be more to that intial story...

It's probably just the way it was reported/percieved. Word of mouth played a fairly large role in this situation getting out of hand, I think; it's hard to accurately report from inside a riot, I would imagine.

I remember reading an article from a fairly large U.S. news source (I wish I could remember where I got it from - I can't find it now) saying that the kids were shot by police officers. I'm certain it's not the first time that's happened either, but I can see why that would incite a lot of ill will. If you think about some of the riots in the U.S., it doesn't seem all that unexplainable.

I think that this situation was used by a group of folks to spread dissension in France. They found an internet site that was being used by folks to throw flame on the fire so to speak. I also read somewhere that it appears to be organized in some areas.

Fandros

Seems like only a matter of time before France has its own London subway/Spanish train/WTC attack. =/
True that (http://www.emergency.com/frncboms.htm).

On this, I must agree. France and other neutral countries will eventually find out what it is like. Being naive doesn't protect you.France helped in Afghanistan, we didn't in Iraq. Tell me how it's being "naive" or "neutral".

But we are far from the point, riots have nothing to do with "terrorism" or "fanaticism", just angry people willingly fueled and organised to make the biggest possible mess.

That's because playing nice to fanaticism doesn't score you any points in the long run.

Very, very true.