A sad day for the IRA with the death of their main supporter in the US.

ROFL, when I read the news of his death, I knew someone on this forum might say something like that. To which I agree a great deal, but nonetheless it can't obscure a sad event like this as, for liberalism generally, he was a great advocate.

Grats to him on dying of natural causes at a ripe old age. No small feat in that family.

Love him or hate him, he made service to his country and those with less his life's work.

Rest in peace, sir.

The passing of a giant, indeed. I thought cirrhosis would be his downfall, not cancer.

I wonder if that whole Chappaquiddick story will come out, now?

I hope you rot in hell Ted.. I hope Mary Jo got to shut the gates in your fucking fat face.

I hope you rot in hell Ted.. I hope Mary Jo got to shut the gates in your fucking fat face.

As a devout Catholic, I do not doubt he saw that as his fate.

Still, while we will never forget that part of his history and want him to finally pay for it, there is much else to also remember him for. I bet there are hundreds of thousands of girls and women remembering him for Title IX, which allowed them to finally be able to compete on equal footing in school sports.

A report this morning stated he was author of 300 bills and cosponsor of another approx 500 during his Senate tenure.

"This is the cause of my life. For four decades I have carried this cause — from the floor of the United States Senate to every part of this country. It has never been merely a question of policy; it goes to the heart of my belief in a just society." —Ted Kennedy on healthcare reform

---------------------------
http://www.bobcesca.com/images/kennedy_obama.jpg

I'm going to be less of a dick this time and just thank him for his service.

I didn't like him at all for a variety of reasons, but I can recognize he was a major force in politics for a very long time. As such, he deserves some degree of respect. Condolences to his family and friends.

I Respect him because he was a duly appointed Senator for his state. That's where it ends. I love how none of the news stations are even mentioning the whole Mary Jo incident.

I Respect him because he was a duly appointed Senator for his state. That's where it ends. I love how none of the news stations are even mentioning the whole Mary Jo incident.


Many are talking about the Mary Jo incident, even MSNBC has mentioned it. Probably out of respect for the Kennedy family at this moment, but I'm sure it will be brought up much more in a few days.

Well Rover, it looks like you would be the only mourner at his funeral if this board is any kind of sample group. Then again A-Ro is a very centrist group politically over all. Ted tended to be too far left and at the very least too much of a sleazebag in his formative years for most people's tastes around these parts. Call it a product of suburbia but that is what you have here and that tends to point towards a more Republican bent and not the old school of Democratic East Coast urban politics.

Who knows who will step in as the cross-aisle moderator and fill the role of the old sage. With the government at loggerheads internally, Ted picked a bad moment to drop dead if even from the standpoint of taking away an opportunity for pause and compromise in an era of bitter partisanship.

He was a flawed but great man that our country would have been very worse off without. Sad day.

Pretty much every story that lasts longer then 30 seconds mention the mary jo stuff, but very few harp on it for long due to most people being able to recognize the reality that he redeemed himself many, many times over in the decades after.

Just how does one redeem themselves from murder?

People make mistakes. Most of them wallow in self-pity or just slide through a normal life of mediocrity, never contributing anywhere near what Kennedy has.

I don't agree with his politics, but I hardly see how that one mistake negates his truly outstanding lifetime achievements. Fixating on the DUI incident is just petty and transparently partisan.

Petty yes, partisan? not really

Scott Adams said: "One "oh shit" can erase a thousand attaboys"

Yes, its a very cynical quote brought to you by one of the more well known critics of modern middle class existance.

Its very easy to forget the work of people who are successful and high achievers, especially if they are prolific at doing good things (depending on what side of the aisle you sit). It almost tends to be taken for granted, but the moment they screw up....its on. Ted, coming from a high profile family and with views considered to be ranging from "Take em or leave em" at the very least to polarizing as being closer to the truth has made alot of enemies who will continue to pick apart his good name long past his burial in Arlington. The Mary Jo incident is going to haunt this man's legacy even removed from the fact that yes, as Sanchek stated, he could have given up and faded away from the spotlight of politics and lived a leisurely life of comfort. Just as Bill Clinton, when he passes will be raked over the coals for Monica among other things. People arn't perfect but when you are in an elite position in society the critics don't typically tend to focus on the good and half of politics is critical thinking.

I couldn't do it. Live the life he has. All the tragic loss in the family. Almost dying in a plane crash. The pressure of the whole Mary Jo event and not to mention staying in politics through all the ebs and flows right up until the end of his life. Politics aside, you have to respect the guy for being a fighter and having a big set of brass ones.

'I don't agree with his politics, but I hardly see how that one mistake negates his truly outstanding lifetime achievements. '

- Well, he fucking murdered someone. I don't know whether you could treat that 'one mistake' as so trivial. Though I do agree to a certain extent it shouldn't negate achievements, at the same time you shouldn't ignore what's true.

I Respect him because he was a duly appointed Senator for his state. That's where it ends. I love how none of the news stations are even mentioning the whole Mary Jo incident.


Strange, but every news story I heard about him mentioned both his impact on the country as a whole via his work on legislation and his messed up personal life including the telling of the Chappaquidick incident.

'I don't agree with his politics, but I hardly see how that one mistake negates his truly outstanding lifetime achievements. '

- Well, he fucking murdered someone. I don't know whether you could treat that 'one mistake' as so trivial. Though I do agree to a certain extent it shouldn't negate achievements, at the same time you shouldn't ignore what's true.


No, he didn't.

He was in an accident where he and the woman were the only two passengers in the car, allegedly under the influence of alcohol, and she died. People toss the word "murder" about as though he intentionally went about causing her death. Negligent homicide and/or manslaughter are more likely the charges he (or rather someone without money) would have been found guilty of if the case had gone to trial.

I think what Sanchek said really sums it up. Knowing someone with horrible backpain she suffered in an elevator accident, I am not surprised he turned to alcohol to drown it out after the plane crash. He made a huge mistake driving drunk and walking away from the scene, one I'm sure no one will forget and it certainly isn't forgivable - but that isn't a summary of the man's life.

You are going to be hard pressed to find a Senator who didn't like Ted Kennedy, and after the Chappaquiddick incident and its culmination with him failing to get the Democratic Nomination in 1980, he could have disappeared like so many other Senators who fail in the Presidential run. Instead, he truly transformed. Who hasn't benefited or knew someone who benefited from one of the bills he sponsored since then?

No, he didn't.

He was in an accident where he and the woman were the only two passengers in the car, allegedly under the influence of alcohol, and she died. People toss the word "murder" about as though he intentionally went about causing her death. Negligent homicide and/or manslaughter are more likely the charges he (or rather someone without money) would have been found guilty of if the case had gone to trial.

So if it isn't murder, then the people who drink and drive, and kill someone in an traffic accident aren't murderers either? Or is that just because they don't become Senators, and pass legislation?

Not in general, no. Vehicular homicide is bad, but it's not usually considered murder--in cases where it should be, the person is typically charged with murder.

Fair enough, so does a lifetime in the senate negate committing negligent homicide?

Fair enough, so does a lifetime in the senate negate committing negligent homicide?

It does enough to make you(OSG) a monster for praising his death...

Let me approach it like this.

A guy is a structural engineer.. he builds bridges, tall skyscrapers, amazing projects of huge civic worth. One day he gets caught blowing some dude in the bathroom stall of a mens room.

For the rest of that guys life he is known as "That cocksucker who built the Brooklyn bridge"

See what Im getting at? Its a difficult thing to do for us to take the whole of a human life in value. We tend to focus on the negative or the sensational and then base our judgment of value on the brightest or shiniest bauble. Nothing negates what Kennedy did.. but, when looking at the worth of man all things must be taken into account.

No, he didn't.

He was in an accident where he and the woman were the only two passengers in the car, allegedly under the influence of alcohol, and she died. People toss the word "murder" about as though he intentionally went about causing her death. Negligent homicide and/or manslaughter are more likely the charges he (or rather someone without money) would have been found guilty of if the case had gone to trial.

What a crock of shit.. He is a fucking murdering alcoholic asshole.. I would have accepted Negligent Homicide had he done everything in his power to notify authorities or even tried to save her. No, that piece of filth ran for his lawyers... What a disgust piece of shit. Good riddance ted you dirt bag. That very fact you condone his actions worries me.

See what Im getting at? Its a difficult thing to do for us to take the whole of a human life in value. We tend to focus on the negative or the sensational and then base our judgment of value on the brightest or shiniest bauble. Nothing negates what Kennedy did.. but, when looking at the worth of man all things must be taken into account.

It's a difficult thing for you to do, best not to assume everyone has that fault.

Like you say, all things must be taken into account, and when you do that you can see how petty focusing on that one mistake is, as Sanchek said.

So Laura Bush can be forgiven and make Amends.. Ted Kennedy? Not so much?

Double Standard much?

What point is there in hating someone that is dead?

What point is there in hating someone that is dead?


Don't hate him.. Just glad he's gone. 28 year old campaign interns are safer today.

So Laura Bush can be forgiven and make Amends.. Ted Kennedy? Not so much?

Double Standard much?

Did I miss something? Was Laura Bush responsible for someone's death?

Edit: Ah yes, she ran a stop sign and caused a fatal accident. I was unaware of that (I pay very little attention to First Ladies). Still, she didn't flee the scene nor was she wasted at the time. A significantly different scenario I think.

Did I miss something? Was Laura Bush responsible for someone's death?

yes.
from wiki:

In 1963, Laura ran a stop sign resulting in a fatal car accident that killed her friend in another car.[8][9] The driver of the other car was her classmate Michael Dutton Douglas. According to the accident report released by the city of Midland, neither driver was under the influence of alcohol or drugs, and no charges were filed.[10] According to Bush's spokesperson, "It was a very tragic accident that deeply affected the families and was very painful for all involved, including the community at large. To this day, Mrs. Bush remains unable to talk about it."[10]

She also didn't claim to run 4 miles to the nearest phone, while her friend died at the scene of the accident...

IIRC, Ted didn't report the accident for 9 hours, even taking a shower and going to bed before he got around to it. I also seem to recall Mary Jo could have been saved had he called for help within an hour or so of the accident according to the coroner.

Ted's case was an order of magnitude worse for those reasons.

What a crock of shit.. He is a fucking murdering alcoholic asshole.. I would have accepted Negligent Homicide had he done everything in his power to notify authorities or even tried to save her. No, that piece of filth ran for his lawyers... What a disgust piece of shit. Good riddance ted you dirt bag. That very fact you condone his actions worries me.


Which of my posts states I "condone his actions"? I am merely doing my best armchair impression of a lawyer trying to explain the difference between murder and an accident.

And further, neither I nor you have any real clue to what his "actions" were, what his actual condition at the time he got out of the car was, what degree of critical thinking he was capable of at that time, and whether he did or did not make any attempt to save her. Only Ted Kennedy knew those things, and maybe someone with a bit more authority if you are religious. That "higher authority" can make the calls now.

Ted Kennedy as a Senator was closely involved with President Johnson in getting the Civil Rights Act passed following John's assassination, and I already mentioned the Title IX legislation, and there are piles of other bills that he was involved with that sought to provide better to those who were lacking. Yeah, he fucked up, but he sure worked hard to create some balance to those scales.

Bylimet its interesting that you focused on Civil Rights and Title IX, which both had a significant impact but probably don't affect too many people here. The ones I immediately think about are almost entirely health care related (including COBRA) or ADA, because I push carts loaded up with shit all over the place and any building without an elevator or handicapped ramp makes me very sad. There isn't a single person on this forum that hasn't benefited directly from one of the various pieces of legislation he wrote or worked on.

Bylimet its interesting that you focused on Civil Rights and Title IX, which both had a significant impact but probably don't affect too many people here. The ones I immediately think about are almost entirely health care related (including COBRA) or ADA, because I push carts loaded up with shit all over the place and any building without an elevator or handicapped ramp makes me very sad. There isn't a single person on this forum that hasn't benefited directly from one of the various pieces of legislation he wrote or worked on.


I agree. I picked the two I mentioned because of the vast number affected.

Just a quick question...Am I incorrect in thinking that laws governing DWI were far more lax back in 1969 than they are now?

They were, but it's largely beside the point. People hate him for being Ted Kennedy, the potential manslaughter charge was just the very convenient excuse.

Ted's case was an order of magnitude worse for those reasons.


Oh.. Is Mary Jo more dead than Laura's friend?

Come now L2, you aren't really of the belief that an accidental death where you report it and stop for the police and answer their questions is the same as an accidental death where you leave the scene of the crime and don't do anything :) But Malse's point is probably the giant summary - its irregardless who did something worse. Had the scenarios been identical people probably would have hated Ted Kennedy more because of who he was.

http://www.twincities.com/ci_13210104?IADID=Search-www.twincities.com-www.twincities.com

Cal Thomas wrote an excellent piece on his long friendship with Senator Ted Kennedy, who was his polar opposite on so many issues.

http://www.twincities.com/ci_13210104?IADID=Search-www.twincities.com-www.twincities.com

Cal Thomas wrote an excellent piece on his long friendship with Senator Ted Kennedy, who was his polar opposite on so many issues.


Many on the Right hated and demonized him, but I don't ever recall his responding in kind.

WOW that was an excellent piece. The quote above really hits the spot.

Title IX not only affected me but helped me get thru college on not one but 2 athletic scholarships. I'm thankful, but I still think his actions are inexcusable. I do not wish death on anyone but I am glad to see him gone. I wish we imposed term limits on our congressman, 50yrs is too long.

Oh.. Is Mary Jo more dead than Laura's friend?

No, both are dead, but the fact that Laura did not flee the scene, did not hide out for 9 hours to consult with lawyers and advisers while the victim died needlessly should adequately make clear why Ted's situation was so much worse. He could have saved the victim by simply reporting the accident in timely fashion. Mary Jo reportedly survived in an air pocket for an hour before she drowned if the coroner is to be believed. Instead of reporting the accident, Ted ran off to sleep off his drunk and plan his political damage control. Simply put, he put his own career ahead of Mary Jo's life. That is why it is a magnitude worse.

Edit: Normally I would not link to the Daily Mail, but in this case I think they hit my opinion of Ted right on the head:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1209313/Ted-Kennedy-The-Senator-Sleaze-drunk-sexual-bully--left-young-woman-die.html#ixzz0PONmmfIs

Title IX not only affected me but helped me get thru college on not one but 2 athletic scholarships. I'm thankful, but I still think his actions are inexcusable. I do not wish death on anyone but I am glad to see him gone. I wish we imposed term limits on our congressman, 50yrs is too long.

Amen to that!

Wow, I had stopped by the board to see how the health care debate might be being handled here and to report on my sitting in Ciro Rodriguez' town hall meeting last night - and I'm sorry that this is what I came back to :/.

Human beings are flawed - that is what it means to be human. We're also capable of growth, and of learning from the great tragedies (self-inflicted or otherwise) in our lives. Somewhere in the last 40 years we as a society lost sight of this and the meaning of what it meant for people to 'pay their debt to society' or be fundamentally redeemable, in favor of an oversimplifying and hypocritical fundamentalism that smacks of Calvinism. Lest you think I am trivializing the death of Mary Jo Kopechne, or for that matter, his involvement in the William Kennedy Smith rape coverup, I am not - I'm speaking of what we as a society have become that we incarcerate the largest percentage of our population in the world, that we hand out life sentences like they were candy, often for simple possession offenses (Oklahoma) or third strikes like the heinous crime of stealing a bicycle (California) while at the same time those in power can engage in proactive war, torture, war crimes, and loot the country in God's name. I'm digressing a bit here, but the other day I listened to one of my favorite Johnny Cash albums - 'Live from Folsom Prison' - and if you've ever heard the music or better yet, seen the video coverage, it's shocking how apparent it is what a different time that was - a time when we believed that most people *were* fundamentally redeemable, that people could express remorse, do their time, and be forgiven, and that one's crimes might not consume one's whole life, that the sum total of a person was more, and more complex, than that.

Putting aside how incredibly ugly some of these comments are in light of the man's death, I think the more pertinent question is: what is the measure of a person's life?

Edward Kennedy managed to take both the tragedies that affected his life and his own deep personal flaws and synthesize a life of service out of them that was not hypocritical or sanctimonious, not driven by personal ego, but by transcendence and dedication to the cause of true participatory democracy - and he will be remembered as one of the best Senators in our country's history for that. One has only to listen to some of the respect paid to him by his colleagues who disagreed with him on nearly every issue how significant he was. Say what you will about how he got there or the dissipated nature of his early life, in his service to the country he was the very embodiment of what our public servants can and should be - principled without being dogmatic; willing to negotiate, but not capitulate, and absolutely dedicated to the American people.

There is a saying in Buddhism - 'flowers grow from muck' - in reference to the way in which beauty and enlightenment grow out of the muck of human desire, ignorance, and pain via acceptance, transcendence, and dedication. In my mind, Edward Kennedy was an excellent example of that lotus, and we as a society would be a lot healthier if we stopped demonizing everything from people to the free exchange of ideas and started engaging with, instead of systematically denying and disengaging from, reality in all of its ugly complexity; and treating human beings, all of them, with the dignity they deserve.

Rest in Peace, Teddy - you will be missed.

Regards,
Nydia

Thank you Nydia.

Thanks, Nydia!

You digress Nyd? Why you're so usually so succinct and to the point..:rolleyes: