After hearing of all the circumstances of the abuse of prisoners in Iraq, does Rumsfield deserve to remain as Secretary of Defense?

Someone needs to take responsibility for the outrages. Where was the breakdown in discipline and why was it not corrected immediately? Heads need to roll and I am becoming less convinced of Rumsfield's control of the military. Before this, I have supported the job he has done but I have come to the conclusion his time is now over.

Discuss.

I don't agree with the overall treatment of the prisoners (since some of the treatment violates the Geneva Convention), there are other factors involved:

Operations in a war zone can not mirror operations during peacetime 100% of the time.

Psychological warfare is an essential part in getting information from prisoners.

That having been said, sodomy with a light stick isn't acceptable behavior.

NO he should be given a medal of honor. How can the Islamic world even complain about human dignity? As if IT were the pinnacle of human rights. Fuck them Arabs. This is war. Oh poor me the Iraqi INSURGENTS were forced to be interogated and broken down before hand to do so. We should apologize for NOTHING. Boy, and here we have Mr. Kerry "I would apologize." Yea really Mr dipshit? Just as you apologized for freely admitting to taking part in free fire zones in vietnam killing god knows who and all the atrocities that happened then. Remember he voted FOR it before he voted AGAINST it. How about Bin Laden apologize? How about Saddam apologize? I don't hear Clinton apologizing to Milosevic. "Gee, buddy did not mean to get you in so much trouble. We just wanted you to leave." Sick to death of liberals and there whinning. Have a nice life bitch.

I know, let's ask Mr. Pearl about the great humanity of the ME.

Oh wait they chopped his head off for their own news programs. I don't want to hear jack or shit about their "human abuse concerns". Far as I'm concerned any belief system that can end up with a woman stoned to death merely because her hubby ACCUSED , that's right not proven, her of adultry is bullshit.

That being said, there's no excuse for abusing prisoners and action should be taken.

The offending officials, as well as their NCOIC and CO should spend quality time in Levenworth (spelling).

Fandros

no he should be given a medal of honor

Are we using the human rights activities of the Middle East as a measuring stick by which our own actions should be judged? Are we just simply at war or are we trying to create a democratic state? If it was just simply a war im sure a few nukes would have solved all these problems long ago.

Either we punish this activity and those involved or we admit we are there just to "beat them down" and if so, we did that, why dont we just leave?

Are you advocating we give him a medal of honor for torturing people or for his attempts to set up a democratic state there?

Yes, take your pick.

Let me get this straight. Saddam tortured people and we couldnt stand for that. So we raced over there to stop him so we could do it instead. Basically you dont care if we are able to set up a new democratic government as long as we kill and torture enough of them to make them sorry for ... well for killing and torturing themselves?

Do you really take yourself seriously because after that I cant.

Nice way to dodge what I really asked about though.

Sorry but that is not torture. A bit humiliating sure. Thats fine. Not a problem. You seem to think these "people" in the prison over there were nifty innocent guys. Golly I feel sorry for them. They were more then willing to shoot at and kill US military personelle and drag four contractors through the streets and hang 'em off a bridge. I think the LA PD does what they did in that prison every night..LOL

Rummy shouldn't be canned. That whole thing was just some loud mouth Democrat (*not gulor, the senator) stirring up shit for the sake of stirring it up again.

I can understand humiliation tactics for interrogation, but not just because some MPs got bored and decided raping people with a lightstick would be fun. The sheer stupidity of their actions is un-imaginable. We have to show some dignity in the way we treat our prisoners regardless of how they treat us. Besides that, the Muslim world is angry enough at us without some dick offs pulling a sunt like this.

That being said, most of those little cocksuckers have no right to bitch about prisoner rights. I agree with Fandros here. Bunch of fucking hypocrites drag our contractors bodies through the streets like a prize, then try to complain about mis-treatment of people who would be firing an AK at our boys if they wern't sitting in jail.

I'll be watching closely when he testifies in Congress tomorrow. Maybe more information will come to light, but so far it appears he has been sitting on the situation and not done anything about it until the photos started showing up. Either he did not know the extent of it (in which case one has to wonder what else he does not know about his area of responsibility), or he has chosen to ignore the situation until it became public. Either way, he has lost a lot of folk's confidence (including mine) that he is the man for the job. His effectiveness can't help but be compromised now.

BTW, I am not a democrat or even a liberal. I do think accountability is important and making sure the military functions as it should is Rumsfield's responsibility. IMO,for a screw up of this magnitude he should belly up to the bar and pay the tab.

/e shakes head.

You dont get it.
It doesnt MATTER what every other nation does. They are not the United States of America. We hold ourselves to higher standard. Its like what Pericles once said of Athens at its Golden Age.
"We do not imitate--for we are a model to others."

Ever wonder why a guy like Pat Tillman volunteers for the Army. Ever wonder why grown men cry at the national anthem? Ever wonder why we are the greatest nation to ever grace this planet? Ever wonder why Bin Laden and his ilk hate us?
The United States represents freedom on this planet for the last 60 years. We try to give hope to people that they can be free. That they can be free from oppression and hate. If we allow these lying murderous fuckheads to say "Ha.. look, America is like everyone else". Then people loose faith in us, if they lose faith in us, they lose hope for Freedom. People without hope give into hate and rage. People who with hate do things like strap bombs to their chest and blow up crowds of innocent people.
The morons in that prison have fired a bullet into that hope. YES ITS A BIG DEAL. We HAVE to repair it. We have to not allow the forces of hate and evil to use this to destroy hope.
A Russian Author by the name of Fedor Dostoevsky once wrote
Imagine that you are creating a fabric of human destiny with the object of making men happy in the end.... but that it was essential and inevitable to torture to death only one tiny creature... And to found that edifice on its unavenged tears: would you consent to be the architect on those conditions? Tell me, and tell me the truth! - The Brothers Karamazov
The greatness of the United States is that we have always said no as a people. We want to be that Shining City on a Hill
From JFK
But I have been guided by the standard John Winthrop set before his shipmates on the flagship Arbella three hundred and thirty-one years ago, as they, too, faced the task of building a new government on a perilous frontier.

"We must always consider," he said, "that we shall be as a city upon a hill--the eyes of all people are upon us."

Today the eyes of all people are truly upon us--and our governments, in every branch, at every level, national, state and local, must be as a city upon a hill--constructed and inhabited by men aware of their great trust and their great responsibilities

For we are setting out upon a voyage in 1961 no less hazardous than that undertaken by the Arabella in 1630. We are committing ourselves to tasks of statecraft no less awesome than that of governing the Massachusetts Bay Colony, beset as it was then by terror without and disorder within.

History will not judge our endeavors--and a government cannot be selected--merely on the basis of color or creed or even party affiliation. Neither will competence and loyalty and stature, while essential to the utmost, suffice in times such as these.

For of those to whom much is given, much is required. And when at some future date the high court of history sits in judgment on each one of us--recording whether in our brief span of service we fulfilled our responsibilities to the state--our success or failure, in whatever office we may hold, will be measured by the answers to four questions:

First, were we truly men of courage--with the courage to stand up to one's enemies--and the courage to stand up, when necessary, to one's associates--the courage to resist public pressure, as well as private greed?

Secondly, were we truly men of judgment--with perceptive judgment of the future as well as the past--of our own mistakes as well as the mistakes of others--with enough wisdom to know that we did not know, and enough candor to admit it?

Third, were we truly men of integrity--men who never ran out on either the principles in which they believed or the people who believed in them--men who believed in us--men whom neither financial gain nor political ambition could ever divert from the fulfillment of our sacred trust?

Finally, were we truly men of dedication--with an honor mortgaged to no single individual or group, and compromised by no private obligation or aim, but devoted solely to serving the public good and the national interest.


If we allow 9/11 and fear of Terrorists to allow us to try to justify actions we as Americans reject and abhore then we have lost.
Final quote
What benefit will it be to you
if you gain the whole world
but lose your own soul?
(Mark 8:36)

I would rather 9/11 happened again than to lose our soul. I would have it happen 100x over than for the United States to become what the forces of Evil in this world try to convince people we are with lies and mistruth.
If we change, if we bend, if Freedom becomes less sacred to us, then they have won. Completly.


Do not accept what happened in that prison. Reject it completely, demand justice.
Let people in other countries, who look to us, know that the ideals and beliefs of america are still there. It really is up to you, each individual american.
You are better than that Fanny.

Think you might want to reread what I posted L2.

I do not condone the actions of those MPs, their Non coms or their officers.

I think all 3 levels should be imprisoned.

But I also think it's hypocritical of the islamic masses and their mouthpiece Al Jazera to yell about the humanity of it all.

Reread my post and I think you'll see you got me confused with someone else in this thread. ;P

Fandros

My apologies Fanny. I misunderstood what you said.

But I do have a disagreement. AlJezeera may be a worthless pile of dog crap with a definite political agenda. But in this case they have a fraction of a point. My only point is we have to make a bigger deal of it than Al-Jezeera.

But on the plus side. A wise Chinese fortune cookie once told me that Crisis is the same symbol as opprtunity.
The entire Middle East will watching us to see how we handle this.
Good chance to show em how its done.

/nods

Again I think we argue the same point.

I think we need to make an issue of this.

But not because of how "they" feel and how it'll make them feel.

But instead because it's right and in tune with how we feel and believe.

Never should we allow the actions and opinions to dictate what we feel is right for us and ours. Noone knows better than us what's best for us and right for us.

So, I feel we should make a big deal out of punishing all involved at that prison. I just don't think you can extend it all the way up to Rumsfeld. That's just political bullshit during an election year.

Fandros

Ya. As much as I dislike Rummy, I dont think he had a part in this.

unles he had heared about it and tried to keep it quiet from the president

if that is what we find out during these hearings, then that is ... well punishable

But I also think it's hypocritical of the islamic masses and their mouthpiece Al Jazera to yell about the humanity of it all.


Oh come on, THIS IS NEWS. Just like every other news agency in the world jumps of stuff that makes people watch them, arab TV is no different. Of course they comment on it, they have to keep their viewers satisfied.

As for the media making politics by showing stuff that angers the arab masses, whats new? Media been always in the center of politics.....

Anyway, the situation is pretty bad, not sure if a 3rd world war would be good for this planet with an islam coalition on one end and the nato at the other....

But not because of how "they" feel and how it'll make them feel.
But instead because it's right and in tune with how we feel and believe.

This is the most intelligent comment in this thread. We are the "United States of America". Not the America that some people here want an over powering, controlling, invading and war like nation. But a nation that protects ourselves as well as looking out for the well being of all the world.

The USA that I am a part of is working for the good of the Iraqi people not to "make them pay". Dont come to me with your "VOTE BUSH" crap then say "we should give out medals for torturers" (not saying Rumsfield is one but that was the implication you made) because its a disgrace that you call yourself a Republican. Your the best John Kerry advertisement Ive seen if your a representative of Bush.

If you call taking pictures of them in some screwy positions naked torture ..I guess so.

At any rate punish the idiots who did this and be done with it. Like Rumsfield said he was more concerned at the time restablizing and gaining control of what was lost over the last month more so than this shitty situtation that popped up.

If you call taking pictures of them in some screwy positions naked torture ..I guess so.


Different Culture.
Shame is POWERFUL force for Arabs. It drives them to suicidal rage in some cases (/wave Palestine)
Im not saying its right or wrong or good or bad.
It just is.

Imagine the anger you would feel if someone molested a small child in your family.
Got a hold of that?
Ok.. thats how Arabs feel when they look at those pictures.

I m just resuming something here. You guys think sodomy with a lightstick isn't a torture? Are you all a bunch of homosexual that get fucked in the ass nightly to think its not a big deal?

Do you even fucking read what you are writing before posting? If you think its just humiliation dude then go bend over and ask your best friend to sodomise you with a lightstick then tell me how you feel when you sit on your ass right after.

Those guys should go to jail regardless of who they tortured and played with. Who give a shit about arabs laws. The military guys that did that are from usa I believe right? That mean they are under american laws and not arabs law right? Thought so.

I doubt Rumsfield have any responsibility for these cases. Those just should be investigated and send some into prison if proven to act like this. Tho, if it is true and pentagon knew about it for some months now, and did not start any investigation, he is responsible for that.

wow kinuvan, could you like read the thread next time instead of just kinda... you know ... blathering away like you didn't?

Dear god.. some of the responses here are absolutely astonishing.
I feel absolutely sickened. Really. To think that the entire righteous act you folks have going on has gone this far that you can still stare torture and human rights abuse in the face and smirk your righteous smirks.

Unbelievable.. utterly.

And above all, you wish to show off your compassion by comparing it to disgusting islamic extremists who drag people through the streets?

The forum opinion has just hit an all time low.
I just can't comprehend it.

Yes, Kinu. Those responcible get tried under the UCMJ (Uniform Code Of Military Justice) for voilations of the Geneva Convention and other codes of military law. The US military is a professional organization, where high standards are to be met or exceeded. Those in uniform are representing our country, our way of life and our core beliefs. Any behavior that puts those beliefs in question or doubt and tarnishes the image of those back at home who rely on the military to do their jobs to the highest standards should recieve punative action. Hate is not a belief written into the US Constitution, and should not be upheld as a reason for being in places like Iraq or Afghanistan. The US military is not there to slaugher, rape, pillage, and destroy. Hate only breeds more hate. Even Master Yoda knew that, and he is just a Muppet.

Should Rumsfled be canned for it? Hard to say really. There is no reason for the whole chain of command to fall on their swords for the actions of a single unit or a few individuals. If anything he should be responciable for finding out as much about what happened there

'If you call taking pictures of them in some screwy positions naked torture ..I guess so.'

- Nice. You neglect to mention the.. what, 10 Iraqi's who died in custody.
How do you kill someone in custody?
Oops, I beat him in to a bloody pulp too much! My bad!

Whatever happened in that jail is beyond Western ideals and civilized society. Those soldiers, or whoever is responsible (those who sat idle as it happened - as well) are no better than the scum of Saddam's regime you went out there to take down.
If you support, or defend, these cretins, your entire base for justification of being out there (now that you lost the whole "WoMD yey!" argument) will be shattered.

It is beyond ironic that the same jail used by Saddam for the acts used to justify his removal, is now being used by the occupying "liberators" to kill, humiliate, abuse, rape, and torture Iraqi's.

I just feel... FUCKING fed up for the Iraqi's who can't catch a goddamn break!

Should Rumsfield Be Canned?

Yes...a long fucking time ago...along with his boss!!

Ail?

Can you for once fucking stick to the topic at hand and drop your blinders?

Fandros

Whatever happened in that jail is beyond Western ideals and civilized society

Ever been inside an American prison?


Supposedly a couple of those "humans" were killed by Delta operators and SEAL teams. Well, thats what Delta/SEALS do. MY best friend (yea yea everyone says they know an ex SEAL) who was on a team told me stories of when he was fighting Abu Seyef in cambodia/golden triangle area. They would take these guys into custody. one guy would cuff em up and another woud stand infront with a pistol. If he resisted or tried to fight they popped him and moved to the next guy. Thats what happened in those cases im betting.

Just finished Rummy's statements today. Sounds hounest to me and I think this will all work out. I did see only one picture that made me wince a bit. The one of that chick holding a leash of an insurgent on the ground. I thought "yea, she's a dumbass." "effective, but a dumbass."

I'm still wondering just how the fuck Rumsfeld is responsible for the actions of a handful of enlisted and low ranking officers.

But thats some of the Dumbassicrats way of dealing with it. Oh no it couldn't have been the soldiers themselves behaving badly! They must have recieved special orders all the way from the top to beat those prisoners and make them do those things!

The responsibility belongs to the soldiers who did it, their comannding officer, and anyone else directly involved with it.

What they did, is a crime, they will be punished for it, as other MPs have been before. I remember not that long ago reading about several who had been court martialed out of the service and went to jail because of abusing prisoners. This is what would have happened again, but for CBS getting ahold of photos from what i understand was a "classified" document concerning the abuse.

How they got it I don't know, but I'm sure somebody's head will roll for that one if it was in fact classified (thats just second hand info so I'm not positive on that point)

Bottom line is, the preident, and rumsfeld are not to blame for this. Piss poor leadership on a company level and bad soldiers are to blame. Oh and I can just about garuntee their claim that they were never taught the geneva conventions is complete bullshit. But anybody in that situation would be trying to weasel their way out of it.



PS. Marz, awesome sig

Osgiliath, your utter ignorance and bland arrogance at considering any point other than what serves the American military is astounding, it is really shameful.

'Ever been inside an American prison? '

- I'm guessing those in prison were given a trial. But at this moment in time, with Americas recent tradition of waving human rights away, most likely not.
And at the last time I checked, I'm pretty sure prisoners aren't tortured and killed in American prisons as routine.

'Supposedly a couple of those "humans" were killed by Delta operators and SEAL teams.'

- A couple? And navy seal teams? And where are your sources?

'Well, thats what Delta/SEALS do.'

- Oh.. oh so Delta and Navy Seals exist to torture and kill prisoners?
Just.. how retarded are you?

'Just finished Rummy's statements today. Sounds hounest to me'

- Between the "ummming" and "ahhhing" and the terrible dodging of questions that created such an atmosphere of pitty that the inquistor in question seemed to be tapping his foot and whistling.

'and I think this will all work out.'

- For Rumsfield? I've no doubt. He seems to have allowed, or did nothing to prevent, breaches of the Genoeva convention on a biblical scale. But he's Ok, he's a suite. And he's an American.
The dead Iraqi's, the tortured and abused (new allegations of possibly children and women among them) people, those who were detained, interrogated, never given a chance, a trial, or the remote hint of humane, western, treatment.. well, sucks for them, eh?

Not only is this whole thing disgusting, even to your own government; not only has this effectively destroyed any "winning of hearts and minds" campaign that was intended to be carried out (when that was going to start, mind you, is another question); not only will this get more coalition troops killed in seething revenge; not only has this made every non-coalition member whince at the political nightmare this has become...

But it's no different than the acts committed by Saddam in that same jail. He slices people open, you folks rape 'em, shame 'em, and occassionally send in the Navy Seals to shoot 'em.
At least he didn't hide behind the guise of being a liberator for freedom and justice.

It's hard not to try and do my usual generalizing of "America", but when these acts inspire the world to disgust, and then a twat like yourself comes and talks about medals, doing what's "right" and "my best mate used to shoot ppl in the head too!!111 :) ))00))"..
..well, then I just can't help but generalize.

I came here knowing there would be a common unity in disgust and anger. That is the case everywhere else.. but no. There are people here not only defending the actions, but...encouraging them?!
What the FUCK is wrong with you people sometimes.

Neener neener neener! Ohh I made Halo mad! Funny. My job in this thread is done. I learned log ago that truly debating politics here is a waste of time. We all have our views and will never change. Goodie for us all. So, yay for high insurgent body counts and yea for Bush/Cheney '04! On to the next inflammatory topic please.

From my understanding the Red Cross has been complaining directly to the American authorities about this crap since March of last year. Repeatedly. The fact that nothing was done to change things until recently when it became public knowledge leads me to believe it is a policy issue, not an isolated case of a few soldiers getting out of hand. The rot goes way higher than a company commander. Perhaps Rumsfield just waved off the complaints as bleeding heart nonsense and did not realize the depth of the problem, but waiting for 9 months to even investigate is inexcusable.

No one is saying Rumsfield ordered soldiers to do whatever they wanted to interrogate prisoners, but damn it he is the one who sets policy and is responsible for the actions and performance of the military. If his policies are encouraging a "look the other way" culture when it comes to prisoner mistreatment, then he is the man responsible.

They had damn well better take a good look at Guantanamo Bay too. If this kind of stuff is happening in Iraq, it could be going on in other military run prisons as well. It's time to clean house.

Well it ties in together, Gulor.

Right now, the G.Convention is being used at will by America. It appears to be employed when needed, and discarded when in the way. Just now Rumsfield was rambling on about the breaches in the convention, but you have things like Guantanamo Bay where people are taken, not proven even remotely guilty, or given the chance to, and the world is shut off from all knowledge.
How could they NOT be doing hurrendous abuse in there, especially given, well, recent events.
I mean, they released 3 Britons from there a couple of months ago. They were put on trial, proven innocent, and released.

America, whether as a whole or not, is falling from every ideal they appear to be "upholding".

Damn you all again for making me agree with Halo. Seriously Fuck all of you, I seriously dislike Halo. Geesh and I am a conservative Pride loving American.

Some of you are seriously out of touch with reality. I mean like seriously, I have a feeling some of you can be studied, maybe has a correlation with online activity. I dunno.

But if you can look at those pictures and not say thats some fucked up shit, I dunno, bad karma for ju I guess.

Fuck off all you self-righteous politically opportunistic cock suckers. The people that did this will be punished if appropriate, end of story.

Find Sadr, introduce him (and anyone else in his room) to a 20mm chain gun, set up a democracy of self-rule, see Kerry's sad face, and all will be good.

Ok.
I understand Halo.
But.... Just for a second take into account this entire process. As much as I hate to say this... I have to give Kudos to the administration for handling this correctly.

They have not gone into self defense mode. They are handling this with extreme openess and accountabilty.
This is horrible, its a tragedy of the highest magnitude. There are no winners here Halo. Wether you "hate" (and I dont think you actually hate America. I think its more like the way I a Red Sox fan, feels about the Yankees, or to put it in your terms, how a Tottenham fan feels about Arsenal) America or not, this has potentially catastrophic consequences for everyone.

Osgiliath isnt representative of America, Osgiliath isnt even representative of Osgilitath. Hes firing for effect.
People are disgusted here as well.. and worried, and determined to make sure that this NEVER happens again.

All I ask is this. Dont make more of it than it is.. It already is terrible. Many people with evil motives are going to use this against us, and when I say us, I mean people who are representative of what is good in this world, Hope, Freedom..
Dont cross over there Halo, dont get caught up in the opportunists who are going to attempt to cause America harm and diminish our ability to good in this world.
In all seriousness, do you want to live in that world?

Osgiliath isnt even representative of Osgilitath

L2 you know me so well. This was just an EXCELLENT topic inwhich to liven these boring times on A-ro. It was almost too easy. Do I honestly think they were tortured? No, but as already mentioned humiliation in the islamic world is just as bad. I still see pictures though of of U.S. Soliders dying, like it or not, for a mission. A good mission. And while I have a best friend...no a brother in the middle east doing "work" for the State Dept. busting his ass day in and day out on this mission with little appreciation that is mostly used for political gain by all parties involved I do not feel sorry "for the other side". They'll get over it in time. At least they for the vast most part lived and were not hung from a bridge or flown into a building.

'Dont cross over there Halo, dont get caught up in the opportunists who are going to attempt to cause America harm and diminish our ability to good in this world.'

- I'm not crossing over anywhere. But I sure as hell won't feel the way I feel because I don't wanna be "an evil opportunist".
My father is a die hard conservative. He believes 900 million Arabs are terrorists, he's racist, he's.. everything I'm not. But when we saw this on the TV earlier in the week, we both turned around, looked at eachother, and he said "What the *fuck* are they doing out there!? They've lost."

You just.. you can't go on crusades in the Middle East. We surely saw this in medieval times. You can't... go in wishing to change life, you can't change entire governments, you can't disrespect and disregard religion and culture, you just.. you can't apply western ideals to other countries and fight fire with fire when they appear not to like it.

I'm rambling, I know. But this entire thing is just *another* reason why this saga is horrendously tragic. Utterly tragic LL. And the mere fact that people don't think it matters.. and no I'm not speaking of our resident retard, Osgiliath, but a myriad of Americans on last night's Chan4 special.. You could just tell most of them still thought Iraq was connected to 9/11.

They spoke as if America, with your freedom and your "hope", were above Iraq. It's the general feeling, you can't deny it. And when things like this happen, they discard them as an "Oh well" moment. And whether someone like Osgiliath was joking or not, you know the retard, deep down, doesn't care. And you know people like Akipt are thinking "they're animals anyway".

/sigh Sorry for the ramble. Just one too many retards around here.

I can say Chan4 was wrong.
I know everyone I know is disgusted. People care. Lots wish it would "go away", but the reality is that it wont. Like every Senator and Congressman, Republican and Democratic agreed, we are going to be dealing with the fallout for the next 20 years.
But, If anyone has access to the transcripts of Rummy before the House yesterday, there was a moment when Rumsfeld had a moment of brilliance and insight (shocking, I know). The house member from Rhode Island asked him how the President can speak with any moral authority anymore. If anyone can post that, because it was awesome. I dont want to do diservice to his words, because they were perfect.

But, Halo, even though I was against the way the war was engaged and the process leading to it, I think it was for a just reason.
You cant ignore the problems going on there. It has been a tinderbox for far far too long. Things have to change. A region producing hordes of Nilhilistic Murderers, bent on destroying the foundation of society through as much violence and bloodshed as possible.

If everything can be worked out in the end, Iraq will be a fantastic place. A modern nation with a dynamic economy and strong western ties, great resources and concrete stability. It will tip the balance from places like Iran and Syria to the nations trying to pull the middle east into this century, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Egypt.

If we fail, then we lose everything, everyone loses. The middle east is plunged into greater chaos than ever before, people like Bin Laden will have won and a confrontation of a massive scale will only be a matter of time.

And you know people like Akipt are thinking "they're animals anyway".

You arrogant, impudent prick. Don't ever presume to speak for me or assume to know what I think.

But it's so fun, your highness.

Fandros...wtf are you talking about.

I answered the question posed by the fucking thred....here's a buck, go buy a clue!!

Rumsfeld beyond being one of the worst diplomats in human history and corrupt beyond all measure...is the one man ultimately responsible for these prisons. He or one of his charges, ignored reports of abuse until they were made public.

"honestly think they were tortured? No, but as already mentioned humiliation in the islamic world is just as bad. "

only thing I think of to say to this...ummmm...duh!!!

"The people that did this will be punished"

Great, glad to see were in agreement....bye Rumsfeld!!

Apparently Ailwon, my sad lil miscreant, you haven't a clue about military hiarchy (spelling).

There's not a chance in hell there was total involvement all the way from the sick fucks that actually committed these atrocities and Rumsfeld. But, being the poor abused liberal that you are you immediately yell it's his fault. /chuckle how in the hell are those hemroids treating your ears?

I really wish misinformed pricks like yourself could do a lil time in the Military, and understand the world a lil better.

In fact I think the country would be served well by a compulsive 2 year stint in either the armed forces or the peace corps abroad.

Punish those involved aye, even go so far as to punish the CO of the prison. But good lord, you delusional twat, but only punish by involvement, don't use yer political views to try and nail those you hate for other reasons.

Fandros

uh oh fanny said twat, i think halo is writing up his law suit at this very moment

got to think of those trade mark infringments fanny

Listen you uneducated little fuck...

I never said there was any involvement...but officials above the sick fucks in the prisons ignored Red Cross reports. They ignored what was going on in those prisons...this is under mining the entire mission there.

Even now the stupid fuck doesn't know what's going on:

"criticized by Republican John McCain of Arizona for not having answers about “who was in charge of the interrogations” at Abu Ghraib, the prison on the outskirts of Baghdad where the abuse took place"

From Rumsfeld himself:

"these events occurred on my watch. As secretary of defense, I am accountable for them. "

There were reports of abuse back in October that were ignored.

"don't use yer political views to try and nail those you hate for other reasons."

I'm not...this is only one more nail in the coffin for this stupid ass.

"y sad lil miscreant", "how in the hell are those hemroids treating your ears?", "misinformed pricks like yourself "

You only destroy your arguments with personal attacks like these.

I agree only those directly involved incidents should be held directly accountable for the incidents. I'm saying Rumsfeld, being the one ultimately resposible, by his own admission, should be held accountable for ignoring military and Red Cross reports of abuse on what may lead to the ultimate downfall of this mission (or at least more recruits for the enemy and ultimately more Iraqi and coalitlion deaths).

"Listen you uneducated little fuck..."

I apologize for leaving this in Fandros... Iwas angry and had thought I deleted this before posting, but had scrolled past.

I'm sorry...I have no idea of your education and was wrong saying that.

Hey gokuu next time how about YOU read the thread huh?

Sorry but that is not torture. A bit humiliating sure. Thats fine. Not a problem. You seem to think these "people" in the prison over there were nifty innocent guys. Golly I feel sorry for them. They were more then willing to shoot at and kill US military personelle and drag four contractors through the streets and hang 'em off a bridge. I think the LA PD does what they did in that prison every night..LOL


I was commenting on this, there are more quotes to get tho if you want. I don't give a shit about rumsfield or whatever, he is as corrupt as a politician can get most likely.

Yeah and I was a tidge hungover and posting on 3 hours sleep.

My bad for making it personal. ;)

Fandros

>I was commenting on this, there are more quotes to get tho if you want. I don't give a shit about rumsfield or whatever, he is as corrupt as a politician can get most likely.

hey kinuvan, then next time instead of blanketing EVERYONE with your stupid comment and actually call out the person you were responding too then? because honestly there was 1 person who responded the way you posted about, and then he was just posting that to get under the skin sertain people like you, i HIGHLY doubt that one person is obviously representing the how ALL of us feel about this sertain situation

'uh oh fanny said twat, i think halo is writing up his law suit at this very moment
got to think of those trade mark infringments fanny '

- Ineed.
I'm watching you closely Fandros. If I see you use the word "cunt"(TM) or "wanker"(TM), we're gonna have words, kay?

But it's so fun, your highness.

Finally Halo understands the fun. It's good to see all of us arguing again. It's Canada's fault the world is turning out the way it is.

no time to read all the posts.


A. i am 100% sure he didn't know about it
B. if he did he wouldn't alow a camera
C. if you where at war with a group of people would you not treat them the same way if you had a chance to get ahold of a POW's, the pictures showed nothing really bad, just shit that is not considered normal. but it is war not normal life. when dealing with people who are willing to die for their cause (all military) a different level of force is needed to control them.
D. any official that would link themselves to a wrong doing is stupid, he is not that stupid.

I think Osgiliath666 likes the idea of men raping men and some of the other dumbassed macho bullshit that these fucktards did.
This is just unbelievable to me. How can anyone support what happened over there. It's just wrong. Regardless of ideology, conservative, liberal, whatever, it's wrong.
Grow up man, you sound like a fucking 1st grader sticking up for this shit.

'Finally Halo understands the fun. It's good to see all of us arguing again. It's Canada's fault the world is turning out the way it is. '

- Finally understands? I invented trolling for a laugh around here you fucking newbie. But sometimes, shit needs some serious attention, dickhead. So take your little flamebating, and continue to wank over dead civilian corpses.
Now fuck off.

(See.. fire bad, tree pretty.)

Heres my only concern.

Rumsfeld has warned that there is worse stuff on the video tape. He has also said that its release will harm American interests further.
What my worry is in the nature of Video. Video tape captures sound. Are there voices of intelligence people on the tapes? My gut says no.. I think this was a "Lord of the Flies" type situation. A bunch of people with little to no oversight, far fom home, isolated in a secure facility, frustrated, with complete power over helpless people, gave into sadistic impluses.
If there is an attempt by the Pentagon to cover up, then the impact of this will be compounded by 100. I have faith that our people are smarter than that.
The test on that faith will be tested at one critical point. If the defense attorneys for the guards ask for and are denyed the video tape on grounds of "national security", then we are in for some really bad times.

MSNBC says that there are videos with detainees being forced to have sex with children. Are you going to support that Osgiliath666? Fucktard...

"A. i am 100% sure he didn't know about it"

I'm convinced he, or his subordinates knew of some transgressions...but ignored them.

"B. if he did he wouldn't alow a camera"

Umm...ok... :\

"the pictures showed nothing really bad"

Remind me to refuse an invititation to a party at your house. :eek

"D. any official that would link themselves to a wrong doing is stupid, he is not that stupid. "

By his own words, he said he is ultimately responsible. There have been complaints about the mal-treatment of prisoners in Iraq not only for the Red Cross, but from the military itself. Nothing was done.

Oh and good luck with your wanna be leaders getting elected come November. hahahahahahaha!!!

"Grow up man, you sound like a fucking 1st grader sticking up for this shit."

One of my kids is a first grader.....I can assure you he would not try to support this shit like some have done. :rolleyes

I'm convinced he, or his subordinates knew of some transgressions...but ignored them.

Your tin hat as a dent in the top there, better polish it up some.

There have been complaints about the mal-treatment of prisoners in Iraq not only for the Red Cross, but from the military itself. Nothing was done.

Really? Nothing was done? Guess those investigations that were launched back in early January and the numerous press conferences informing us about it were all about covering it all up huh? Like I said, get that tin hat polished up and spotless, Kerry needs you!

Oh and good luck with your wanna be leaders getting elected come November. hahahahahahaha!!!

What are you 12?

Nope just stating a fact. Sorry, comeback with something better than that please, you are not making it worthwhile...

Making what worthwhile? Your brainless personal insults in every single one of your posts? Sorry kid, your the one who sounds like a first grader who just discovered the magic of swear words.

LOL.. Halo i'm sorry sir, but if you call that trolling you are sadly mistaken. Isn't mommy calling you to help her? Now go play like a good little lad.

There have been complaints about the mal-treatment of prisoners in Iraq not only for the Red Cross, but from the military itself. Nothing was done.

Hmm in fact I remember just a few months ago reading about how a couple (8 or so I think) of soldiers had been court-martialed for mis-treatment of prisoners. This was in Stars and Stripes, and another story on it in the Army Times. One of them that sticks out in my mind was that of an MP Master Sergeant who had been reduced to the rank of Private for her crimes, then thrown of of the service.

For those non-military inclined a Master Sergeant, is one of the highest enlisted ranks a soldier can attain in the army. Most have been serving for 15 years or more. So no, the Army isn't affraidc to report this kind of thing, and they do, they tell the media about it, and then prosecute the soldiers who do this bullshit and throw them out. Even those with extended records of good service.

The difference here, the level of abuse, and the type. It had been reported, and was being dealt with, then the media got ahold of it, and turned it into a shit storm.

It was wrong, the offending soldiers will be court-martialed, and likely all see jail time. Their commanding officers will be relieved of their commands, new people sent in, and life will continue. It was most certainly regretable that this happened. It never should have happened in the first place, but it did, and they're taking care of it.

Should Rumsfeld be canned? Hell no, not for this.

Would you fire a manager of a store if one of his workers were caught stealing? No, the asshole stealing the merchandise is responsible.

The people who did this, and the ones who tried to cover it up will be "fired" and dealt with. All these assclowns who are trying to lynch Rumsfeld for this need to find a better idea because this one is just fucking stupid. How on earth is he responsible for a couple of dumbasses screwing up?

'LOL.. Halo i'm sorry sir, but if you call that trolling you are sadly mistaken.'

.............

'Isn't mommy calling you to help her? Now go play like a good little lad. '

- Just when I think you cannot possibly be any more retarded, you amaze me.
Keep it coming.

Elemak...

I couldn't have put it better myself.

Thank you

Fandros

Aye Elemak pretty much summed it all up methinks.

"Would you fire a manager of a store if one of his workers were caught stealing? No, the asshole stealing the merchandise is responsible."

The problem is there are reports of abuse in Iraq prisons going back to October:

"Oct. 13-Nov. 6
Maj. Gen. Donald Ryder, provost marshal of the Army, investigates conditions of U.S.-run prisons in Iraq, including Abu Ghraib. He finds problems throughout the prisons. Some units, including the 800th Military Police Brigade, did not receive adequate training to guard prisons, he notes. He also says military police (MPs) should not assist in making prisoners more pliable to interrogation, as their job is to keep prisoners safe."

...and Red Cross going back even farther:

"Mr Kraehenbuehl said that over the last year the Red Cross had repeatedly warned the Bush administration that the conditions at the Abu Ghraib needed changing.

"Our findings were discussed at different moments between March and November 2003, either in direct face-to-face conversations or in written interventions," he said. "

So in your comparison it would be more like:

Would you fire a CEO where multiple stores that had at least some employees that were abusing customers to the point that the entire corporation was in peril, that had reports for several months that this could be going on?

And to avoid the possible well you can't just go off and quote sources without providing links to back it up...

www.armytimes.com/archivepaper.php?f=0-ARMYPAPER-2188722.php (http://www.armytimes.com/archivepaper.php?f=0-ARMYPAPER-2188722.php)

www.armytimes.com/archivepaper.php?f=0-ARMYPAPER-2540021.php (http://www.armytimes.com/archivepaper.php?f=0-ARMYPAPER-2540021.php)

www.armytimes.com/archivepaper.php?f=0-ARMYPAPER-2535778.php (http://www.armytimes.com/archivepaper.php?f=0-ARMYPAPER-2535778.php)

Those three are the story I was talking about, I guess it came back from may of 2003, way before any of this current bullshit even started. So saying that nothing is being done about prisoner abuse in Iraq is both stupid, and wrong.

Bit off on my number, was only 4, not 8. However it pretty much outlines what will happen to anyone abusing prisoners. Now in the case of these latest assholes; We'll they're going to be crucified for what they did, and rightly so.

Halo, you think you're so smug. It's sad really. The mental reasoning of an autistic 5 year old.

Links:

Sorry...thought it was pretty well-known info:

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4934213 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4934213)
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3694521.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3694521.stm)

"So saying that nothing is being done about prisoner abuse in Iraq is both stupid, and wrong."

Obvious something stupid was being done...the abuse continued.

Would you fire a CEO where multiple stores that had at least some employees that were abusing customers to the point that the entire corporation was in peril, that had reports for several months that this could be going on?

Well let's see, the whole corporation? I geuss by this you mean the Army, or perhaps the enritre Department of Defense being in peril over this.

Nope, sorry their actions have about zero serious impact on my job in the Army. Biggest thing I might see from this is yet another briefing on Geneva conventions.

And to be a little more specific with the Corporation analogy.

Sec. Rumsfeld is the Board Chairman, he gets reports than approximately 100 out of the 1,000,000 employees he has are commiting crimes. So he says investigate them and punish them accordingly.

Saying these few, puts the rest of us in peril somehow is, well, I just don't see it really. Once again I have to ask how in the world is He responsible for the actions of a few soldiers?

Do you expect him to personally look into every allegation of abuse?

No, he shouldn't thats why in the military we have a chain of command.

And yes something is being done about it Ailwon, when someone complains, or they recieve a complaint from the red cross it gets investigated. If it's true, people go to jail, get thrown out, depending on the severity of the crime. If anything from the hearings the other day, we've seen that this sort of thing has been taken care of since day one. Just in the one case the soldiers responsible were being extra stupid, and did things even worse than the others so the media decided to run with it and blow it out of proportion just like you have.

The highest the responsibility for this might go is up to the Batallion commanders level, and that in my opinion is even stretching it.

(Note for the non military types: A batallion is an element of approximately 1500 troops, devided into sevral companies each of which are made up of 2-300 troops depending some are a lot smaller, only 500, but thats an average)

So these MPs, being in a company, their Commanding officer, and them should be hung out to dry, and if they really want to lynch people, the Batallion CO as well, but thats pretty much where the buck stops. Blaming it on anyone above them, when they have properly reported the abuse is nothing better than a rage induced witch hunt. Yes what happened shouldn't have, but it's no reason to punish good soldiers and people because of a few bad eggs. More to the point don't lynch people that aren't directly responsible for the abuse.

And more to just really lay it out for the retarded people who just don't get it.

You are responsible for your own actions

Naw, I think we should fire them all. Perhaps burn their houses down with their families and pets in them. Next step is to have all members of the US armed forces dress up as clowns and sing "Tiptoe Through the Tulips" in falsetto A-La Tiny Tim in front of the UN building. Also, we should give the 13 orginal colonies back to England and give everything else back to the Native Americans that we took from them. Whats left over France and Canada can fight over. A good guess that those leftovers would be Detroit and Cleveland.

Will that make you happy, Halo, and those of his ilk? Its about on the level of stupidity you seem to deal best in.

One point though.
While I dont think this was sanctioned by Rummy, nor are any of his policies directly responsible.
Rumsfeld has made a LOT of mistakes. He just has.

Looking at the news, lots of the interviews with people who were prisoners are OUTSIDE of the prison, in thier homes, on the streets. Basically, free. Yet for a time they were being held in the strictest security area of the facility.
One has to wonder.
For all of these peoples lives they had set rules of survival in the saddam regime. Give names. Even if you dont know anything, give people up.
The task is daunting for Intelligence people. Dead Ends that never end.
It makes me think is this the result of not having enough people in Iraq to provide security? Did we have enough troops on the ground to lock down the borders to prevent as best we could have possibly down the exodus of Al-Queda types into Iraq? Did we have enough to establish a commanding presence in the entire country?
Every day the oil facilities are sabotaged in some way.

Was it a abject failure of policy to remove all Baath party officials from office? Was it an abject failure to ignore pleas to give all members of the Iraqi Army a 3 month stipend of pay from the incoming Iraqi governing council?
And Rumsfeld has made his own bed with Congress, he has consitantly not informed them and only dribbled information to them when absolutly necessary. The concern is that he doesnt have a sense of accountabilty and acts like he has carte blanche from the President.
Remember before the War the flap he had with Colin Powel and the state department?



We won the war with a Brilliance not matched in any military operation since Hannible crossed the Alps, but we are losing the peace in a equally astounding fashion.

One point though.

Honestly L2, you need to just come out and say what you're wanting to imply. Your free flowing thought ran away from that one point you wanted to make.

Rumsfeld has made a LOT of mistakes. He just has.

And you still think OBL is in Afghanistan, and somehow we dropped the ball by moving the front of the War on Terror to Iraq. Rumsfeld is the best Sec Def this country has ever had, period.

Looking at the news, lots of the interviews with people who were prisoners are OUTSIDE of the prison, in thier homes, on the streets. Basically, free. Yet for a time they were being held in the strictest security area of the facility.
One has to wonder.

Wonder what? Something like 90% of those detained since the invasion will have been released by the end of next month. They were held in the strictest of security areas? I guess we needed to get that parole system for enemy combatants set up quicker.

For all of these peoples lives they had set rules of survival in the saddam regime. Give names. Even if you dont know anything, give people up.
The task is daunting for Intelligence people. Dead Ends that never end.

Yeah it's hard. What's your point?

It makes me think is this the result of not having enough people in Iraq to provide security? Did we have enough troops on the ground to lock down the borders to prevent as best we could have possibly down the exodus of Al-Queda types into Iraq?

Ok, now you're getting somewhere. The biggest snafu I've read about was the State Dept. not allowing our military to chase insurgents across the border into Syria and Iran. They did once, back after the invasion into Syria and it caused a big stink. I wonder why :p

Did we have enough to establish a commanding presence in the entire country?

The biggest failure (not a mistake on our part) was the obvious lack of willingness on the part of the new Iraqi army to actually defend their own country against the insurgents. They protested for a pay raise and they got it. But they didn't earn it when the time came.

Every day the oil facilities are sabotaged in some way.

Really? Last sabotage I read about was back in February. Oil exports are exceeding what they were able to do before the war. Not bad, should be better.

Was it a abject failure of policy to remove all Baath party officials from office?

No.

Was it an abject failure to ignore pleas to give all members of the Iraqi Army a 3 month stipend of pay from the incoming Iraqi governing council?

Maybe. Maybe not.

And Rumsfeld has made his own bed with Congress, he has consitantly not informed them and only dribbled information to them when absolutly necessary.

Maybe if said Congress would stop leaking every confidential report he gives to them to reporters for political jabs at Bush?

Remember before the War the flap he had with Colin Powel and the state department?

Yeah, maybe the paper pushers in the State Dept. are running things the wrong way now?

we are losing the peace in a equally astounding fashion.

Here's my opinion, three mistakes:

First, the State Dept did not allow our military to chase insurgents back across the borders.

Secondly, we didn't kill Sadr the first time he presented himself on Al-jazeera surrounded my a mob of Ak-47 wielding thugs. We took out his newspaper though!

Lastly, we mistakenly expected the new Iraqi army to fight for their country with the same unselfish courage that our soldiers do.

As for you thinking we're losing... We're going to lose the war right here in our country, not over in Iraq. Just like Vietnam. But hey, whatever it takes to beat Bush right?

anyone knows when the us army or their outsourced parts adding gas-chambers to their concentration camps ?

i remember that the germany designed the concentration campns in first place also for investigation and intelligence in early 30s in last century to fight their "enemies" , the killing started a few years later.

see alsao here:

www.wsg-hist.uni-linz.ac....em-KZ.html (http://www.wsg-hist.uni-linz.ac.at/Auschwitz/HTML/System-KZ.html)

regarding to this text, america started phase 1 with guantanamo a´nd the prisons in iraq and afghanistan

i wouldnt wonder if the US doing the same with a president which seems somehow mentally handicapped otherwise i cant explain why he tells the public that rumsfeld does a great job, in fact rumsfeld is a total failure and the rest of the american government too.

america the land of the free, democraty, justice & now just new : of the tortured , america just joined inofficial the axis of evil:

torture authorized by the government , death penatly, (christian) religious fanatism, puritans , humiliation of prisoners , weapons of mass destructions .

Americas application as another rogue-state is hard to turn down...

and its still unbelievable that the american citizen do not protest against this.
if this would happen in germany or any other european country the people would go mad and the defense minister would have left his seat immedeatly.

Yes! Bush is Hitler and Rumsfeld is Heinrich Himmler. It's all so clear now. Thanks Hartmut, you jackass.

Lol gas chambers = some nude pictures of prisoners..HAHA ludicrous.

Sick that the Americans didn't rally the streets when they burn, dragged, and hung 4 of our American "contractors" from a bridge. Oh thats right though..we will only hold those responsible for that barbariac act accountable..not the entire country. Oh ya and Fuck you Hartmut.

I am starting to think release Saddam and put him back in control of that country. Who in the hell could possible keep those freaks undercontrol.

these contractors you mention where mercenarys , worked for black water securities. search a bit , there are tons of mercenary companies operating in iraq .
So they where military personel aswell , which died in combat. but usually mercenaries will be communicated as " contractors " in the media .... sounds better i guess.


@soledorin explain me which freaks do you mean? the american photographers and his mates which made the photo shooting the iraqi prisoners oral sex orgies ?

Is a american soldier,mercenary,CIA-agent or "contractor" that is torturing iraqis better than a iraqi torturing iraqis ?

wake up guys....


how do you explain the iraqis then how western democracy and justice work.... if arabs see such pictures of americans torturing arabs they cant see a difference to their old regimes and therefore no reason to change....

Those contractors where protecting shipments of food and goods into the city. Call them what you like but thats ok with you on what they did to them? Does that even compair to this mental torture of some of these soldiers. I am sorry but if the iraqis send pictures of American soldiers like the ones we have of them..I think it would sit a little better than the ones I see of guns pointed at them with masks on there face saying they are going to kill them if they dont get there way.

I look at it a little differently..hell some of the hazing ordeals that happen in this country to join a sports team or a college frat are far worse than anything I seen in those pictures so far. YES I DO UNDERSTAND IT IS WAS wrong..and those who did it are in serious hot water. Are those that killed those contractors being delt with like we are handling are soldiers?

how do you explain the iraqis then how western democracy and justice work....
By prosecuting those responsible for it like they are doing this very moment. Time for you to do a little reading yourself.

Ibudin

hahaha


foxnews headline "rumsfeld doing a good job"


www.foxnews.com/story/0,2...58,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119458,00.html)


By prosecuting those responsible for it like they are doing this very moment.


ok i understand after ive read the washington post....


Pentagon Approved Tougher Interrogations

www.washingtonpost.com/ac...ge=printer (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A11017-2004May8?language=printer)

this one is a favorite : www.whitehouse.gov/news/r...40504.html (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/05/20040504.html)

Speech of g.w.b. at 4th may during a election campagin.

THE PRESIDENT: We confronted the dangers of state-sponsored terror and the spread of weapons of mass destruction. So we ended two of the most -- (applause) -- we ended two of the most violent and dangerous regimes on Earth. We liberated over 50 million people. Once again, America is proud to stand against tyranny and to set nations free. (Applause.)
When Dick Cheney and I came to office, we found a military that was underfunded and underappreciated. So we gave our military the resources and the respect they deserve. And today, no one can question the skill, and the strength, and the spirit of the United States military. (Applause.)

AUDIENCE: USA! USA! USA! USA!

...

We showed the dictator and a watching world that America means what it says. (Applause.) Because -- because we acted, Saddam's torture chambers are closed. Because we acted, Iraq's weapons programs are ended forever. (Applause.)



i still think there is something very wrong. Does GWB really believes in this bullshit he talking to the people ??????


the whole system stinks

hartmut you should end your life now, because tomorrow the USA is going to bomb every country with our nuclear arsenal in an attempt to free up parking space at our malls

how do you explain the iraqis then how western democracy and justice work....

As Ibudin just pointed out, the difference between their former regime under Saddam and the one we want them to have is, those guilty of such crimes will be prosecuted.

Democracy is not perfect, and obviously neither are humans, no matter what race they are.

...if arabs see such pictures of americans torturing arabs they cant see a difference to their old regimes and therefore no reason to change.

Are you a fucking moron? The fact that the investigations were opened long before it became public is a shining example of what we wish for the Iraqi people. Sure, this is an embarrassment, but what civilization has a perfect society of law abiding individuals? Obviously none, certainly not in the middle east.

wake up guys....

Go back to your nap, you've missed the point already.

so you tell me it has something to do with the location , any person becomes a torturer is he goes to middle east or what ?

i havent head so much bullshit in a long time...

this isnt about beeing perfect , this is about humanity and it seems the pentagon has deleted this word from their handbooks.

who will prosecute the pentagon ? the pentagon themselfes ??? hey , that doesnt work somehow right ?


which investigations do you mean , those tortures or the aftermath ?

Hartmut,

Quick, crawl back under your rock and imagine the big bad Yankee's knocking at yer door!!!

Your really hurting your side of the arguement. Infact the other liberals just called in asking you to leave so they have a chance at swaying folks with intelligent debate.

Sad sad lil boy...


Fandros

so you tell me it has something to do with the location , any person becomes a torturer is he goes to middle east or what ?

huh?

i havent head so much bullshit in a long time...

Yes, you and tHeOraCle are competing for moron of the year awards.

this isnt about beeing perfect , this is about humanity and it seems the pentagon has deleted this word from their handbooks.

You fucking jackass.

http://www.glennbeck.com/news/05-10-04/05-10-04-2.jpg
http://www.glennbeck.com/news/05-10-04/05-10-04-3.jpg

who will prosecute the pentagon ? the pentagon themselfes ??? hey , that doesnt work somehow right ?

One place in the world you will never want to find yourself, is in front of a military court defending yourself.

which investigations do you mean , those tortures or the aftermath ?

The abuses.

Man I swear, Marz says I have personal attacks in every post? LOL akipt you are a riot....

Akipt is immune from your stupid ass accusations because he (like many others in this thread) can carry on a debate without shouting high school insults or repeating the phrase "good luck getting elected mistar prezidant! lolEzx hahahEUHJ! in every fucking thread.

Go back to whatever dark corner of teenage obscurity you crawled out of.

well you started posting pictures , i will add some more :


btw i have seen a lot pictures of old mans padding kids ... and they still no good man


<img border=0 src="http://ntap.k12.ca.us/whs/projects/history/himages/youth1.jpg" />


old friends shaking hands .... it seems rummy took some lession while visiting his teacher some years ago ...

<img border=0 src="http://www012.upp.so-net.ne.jp/siratori/iraqwar/saddam_rumsfield_handshake.jpg" />



<img border=0 src="http://www012.upp.so-net.ne.jp/siratori/iraqwar/10.jpg" />


this poor boy will never shake anyones hands again ,... thanks to the US - Army precision weapons.

Umm

Not saying that the photo is bogus.. but....

Normally when a bomb hits the explosion throws everything outward. Damage done from a bomb would be equally spread over a side of the body.
That boys wounds look more like the handling of a land mine or some explosive from close up.

That kid's story was well publicized around the time of the initial campaign. I *think* his injuries were indeed due to a missile attack (though not necessarily from the blast itself).

was that the one where the explosion took place in the market?
The one the US denied was caused by a missle?

"I geuss by this you mean the Army"

"puts the rest of us in peril somehow "

The Iraq war :rolleyes

I'm sure it's fueled more than a few more recruits for Al Queda et. al.

"Do you expect him to personally look into every allegation of abuse?"

When it's abuse of prisoners and breaking the Geneva convention...you bet your ass.

"You are responsible for your own actions"

or, in action in this case.

Showing a mutilated little boy's injuries as a way to make a political jab at America just shows how much of a little twisted fuck you are Hartmut. That little boy and the 10,917 "innocents" (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/) and the 717 American soldiers (http://antiwar.com/casualties/index.php) have no one else to blame but Saddam Hussein for their deaths.

Anyone (http://p196.ezboard.com/bayonaero.showUserPublicProfile?gid=lleauaric) that uses the deaths of citizens or especially soldiers to generate more political rhetoric needs to be castrated, slowly drawn and quartered, scattered body parts pissed on, and their remains left upon a pile of chicken shit to rot.

Fuck you very much.

did you miss the news ? saddam was catched a while ago ...

when i follow your "logic" we should blame cristoph columbus for discovering america or what?

i would rather say everyone is responsible for his actions ... also in the army , even if you have to hand out your brain at the reception.

so i blame american soldiers and their supporting american civilians for killing 10k civilians in iraq.

For what? for weapons of mass destruction ?? C´mon this story has a long beard and is has yet to be proven , well in other words its a big propaganda LIE .

For the Freedom of Iraq? do you think the iraq is free now by your definition ?
The british told the iraqis the same when they tried to dominate the region in the last century and they got their arse kicked.

When do you free north korea, china, pakistan,sudan & somalia ....? Oh sorry i forgot , no resources, too strong , too important buisnesspartner ...


Destroy Iraq because its the biggest military threat to the free world ?
C´mon .... their army was pure crap ... this sorry army lasted a few days before it just disappeared.

ok , All these hypocritical reasons outweight +10k civilians murdered ?



man you getting cheated nonstop by a government that wasnt even elected by the majority of your country ..... hoooray banana republic ;)

saddam was catched

Was catched huh?

cristoph

Who is this cristoph you speak of?

C´mon

That's "come on".

this story has a long beard

What?

when i follow your "logic" we should blame cristoph columbus for discovering america or what?

You couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were printed on the heel, so don't venture into the logic arena.

For what? for weapons of mass destruction ?? C´mon this story has a long beard and is has yet to be proven , well in other words its a big propaganda LIE

The shiney stuff is faerie dust. You're not supposed to eat it.

For the Freedom of Iraq? do you think the iraq is free now by your definition ?

Blah blah blah

Hartmut says, "lalalalala I have lalalalalalalalalala my lalalalalaalala head lalalalalalalalalalala so far lalalalalalalalalala up my lalalalalalalalalala ass lalalalalala lalalala the lump lalalalalalalalalala in my lalalalalalalalalala throat lalalalalalalalalala is my lalalalalalalalalala nose lalalalalala"

Don't feel bad Hartmut. Many Americans don't comprehend the Electoral College. Shouldn't suprise anyone here that a complete inbred fucknut like yourself will still latch onto the entire popular vote thing.

Fandros

Heres and interesting thing.

www.guardian.co.uk/worldl...63,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4075363,00.html)

The report said some coalition military intelligence officers estimated ``between 70 percent and 90 percent'' of the detainees in Iraq ``had been arrested by mistake. They also attributed the brutality of some arrests to the lack of proper supervision of battle group units.''

also

Red Cross delegates saw U.S. military intelligence officers mistreating prisoners under interrogation at Abu Ghraib and collected allegations of abuse at more than 10 other detention facilities, including the military intelligence section at Camp Cropper at Baghdad International Airport and the Tikrit holding area, according to the repor

So basically. We tortured innocent people. If you could make the case that these were insurgents, or combatants, or terrorists, then a case could be made for some amount of low level torture. Not a strong one, but one that could minimize the effect.
That case is lost.

70 to 90%.. thats a systemic failure of gargantuan proportions.

The invasion of Iraq was the biggest move America has made since entering WW2, and this adminstration has completly bungled every single possible thing they have had a hand in.
Not since Jimmy Carter and the Iranian hostages has America been damaged this badly.

I don't condone any of the abuse and eagerly await the criminals' prosecutions, but you're blowing it out of context (not surprising.)

The report said some coalition military intelligence officers estimated ``between 70 percent and 90 percent'' of the detainees in Iraq ``had been arrested by mistake.

Absolutely no mention why we gathered up these "innocent" males in their homes huh? Perhaps because they had bomb making equipment or assault rifle caches hidden away in their houses? Hmm. Red Cross isn't going to give that information, they only care about the treatment of the prisoners. So keep it in context.

In fact, the only mistreatment on these "innocents" from your article is:

``Treatment often included pushing people around, insulting, taking aim with rifles, punching and kicking and striking with rifles.''

Perhaps resisting arrest? They're just making improvised bombs is all. Uh huh. It's just a fucking war, nothing to see here. Move along now.

As for the detainess...

It also said U.S. officers mistreated inmates at the notorious Abu Ghraib prison by keeping them naked in totally dark, empty cells.

... Puhleeeeze. How dare we keep them naked.

Not mentioned (surprisingly) in your article is the January 4-8th report to the Army by the Red Cross that there were "vaste improvements" at the Abu Ghraib prison. Five days later, Joseph Darby left his CD of images for a military inspector, who the next day started the first official investigation into this soon-to-be shit storm.

70 to 90%.. thats a systemic failure of gargantuan proportions.

Wtf are you babbling about? It's war, not Sesame Street. Most of these "innocent people" you're crying over are the same people that set our Humvee's on fire and strip them down after their occupants are ambushed. Cry me a river if we detained some of these people for a week or two by mistake.

...this adminstration has completly bungled every single possible thing they have had a hand in.
Not since Jimmy Carter and the Iranian hostages has America been damaged this badly.

And not since ...ever, have I read such patently politically opportunistic babble.

What we are seeing is the end road of compromised principles. This is whole debacle is the end result of a betrayal of core American ideals.
The Prisoners in Git-Mo were declared by this administration to not have the rights to the Geneva Convention. Many have been freed with no trials or no allegations of wrong doing having ever taken place.
This is understandable. And in and of itself it is not a terrible thing. The tragedy is in the starting down that path. We keep being told that the war in Iraq, according to the adminstration, IS the war on Terror. Abu Ghraib, Git-Mo.. whats the difference?
Now you take the situation we've had with the insurgency, massive arrests, the rounding up of anyone even remotely suspected. The arrests continue, but has no effect on the violence.
Pressure from above to get a hold on who is doing this. Pressure on interrogators to get results. So many prisoners, way more than they can deal with. The MI guys use the guards.
Umm, your stay is extended in Iraq another 3 months.
Fucking Arabs.
They need results, American troops are dying. More Pressure.
Fucking Arab Terrorists.
Press harder on the prisoners. Get results.
This "process" will save lives, they are doing their patrotic duty.

Suddenly someone has a video camera.
Oops.


The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

It is ironic because soliders are dying to protect principles which the Bush bunch threw out when they stole office from the election in Florida.

Read the CNN reports carefully - how many independent contractors work for Haliburton, the, guess what, ex-employer of VP Cheney? (<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20001026/aponline143823_000.htm" target="_blank">article in Washington Post</a> -- <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2950154.stm" target="_blank">BBC</a> - and there's tons more).

This is the most rotten bunch of politicians ever to grab hold of the White House. They truly have it in their reach to completely destroy the dream of real democracy, of having a country where the average person has a chance to make something of themselves, of having a country where we can really feel safe from attack. Democracy is extremely fragile and tender thing. It has not lasted for many hundred years before in history. Hopefully this decade's version of the White House tapes (reference Nixon) will undo these guys enough for a less corrupt bunch to get into power.

Ruthey says, "lalalalalalalalala stole the lalalalalalala election in Florida lalalalalalala lalalalalalalalala Haliburton lalalalalalalalalalala lalalalalalalalalalala Cheney lalalala lalalalalalalala most rotten lalalalalalalala lalalala politicians lalalalalala lalalalalalalalalala White House lalalalalalalalalalalalalalala since Nixon lalalalalalalalalalala lalala"

(I guess he means he has his fingers in his ears and is humming songs because he can't face how scarey all that is? I do that at horror movies too - too bad this is RL).

No he means your just repeating the same old liberal rhetoric that every other little bird squawks about over and over.

For fucks sake at least L2 and others can elaborate on their debate discussions, rather than fall back to OMG BUSH AER ELEKCTION THIEVSZ! HUHU CONTRACKTORZ AR INn KAHOOTZ WITH HALBURITON!

Go back to being at inner peace via cat tranquilzers or whatever the fuck you do.

For fucks sake at least L2 and others can elaborate on their debate discussions, rather than fall back to OMG BUSH AER ELEKCTION THIEVSZ! HUHU CONTRACKTORZ AR INn KAHOOTZ WITH HALBURITON!

Fucking owned.

www.schnittshow.com/timag...Reward.jpg (http://www.schnittshow.com/timages/page/IraqiReward.jpg)