Was thinking about this today...thought it'd be a nice break from elections and Iraq discussions.

Would you support a boycott, no matter what country you are from, of the 2008 Olympics in support of Tibet?

No, because it ultimately penalizes many people who don't have political aspirations for something that is political.

The athletes have a limited time in their prime to have the gift to perform in the Olympics. A boycott by their country unfairly punishes the athlete and can rob them of a lifetime of efforts set to culminate in this years Olympics.

If an athlete wants to boycott for their own beliefs about the Tibet situation, I would support said athlete. If a country wants to boycott and in effect punish their athletes by not allowing them to perform, I could in no way support that.

It's still a shame to think about the Olympic boycotts from 1980 and 84.

Idealistically, yes.

Realistically, no. This is a glass house to throw that rock from.

Very good points Taleran, but everything is Political...we'd like them not to be but they are. But in essence I agree, I'm not sure the Chinese would really care enough to do anything about Tibet (i.e. give them independence) based on a boycott....but man I'm pissed at the Chinese right now. Their attitude about Taiwan and what they've done in Tibet is shameful.

It would be much more effective to try and convince the Chinese to do something about it if people boycotted Chinese goods more than the Olympics. Boycotting the Olympics is ultimately a symbolic gesture unless every country in the world boycotted (which we know wouldn't happen).

Shouldn't you be pissed at the Chinese government? The people don't have much of a choice, unless they simply want to die a little faster.

Do I think it would do anything? No.

Would I support it? Yes.

Yes, Ibudin, I meant the Chinese government...of course I'm just as pissed at the US government, but in that case I'm pissed at a lot of Americans for re-electing the worst president in history.

I would like to echo the points so eloquently stated by Taleran.

I would be more than happy to support an economic boycott, meaning not purchasing anything imported from China, or made in China.

I know I (or more so the company I work for) purchase many millions of pounds of raw materials that only China can produce. Sooner or later it will be made back in the US when the Chinese market gets in check with reality.

I would be more than happy to support an economic boycott, meaning not purchasing anything imported from China, or made in China.
I'm afraid that would be economic suicide for us.

In addition to our depending on cheap Chinese imports to maintain our basic quality of life, the Chinese hold hundreds of billions in US treasuries and dollar reserves. At any time that our economic relationship is terminated, they could launch the economic equivalent of a nuclear attack on us by dumping those reserves. The resulting one-two punch of inflation and expensive staple goods would be catastrophic.

They won't do that as long as their export economy is so well funded by our consumption, but the second that we threaten to pull our money out, they can do us one better.

No to boycott, find another way

I would support our government's decision but wouldn't agree with it. However, as the Chinese own our economy, such as it is, we have little genuine recourse in the matter. I'd prefer to see our athletes excel in the games, wearing "Free Tibet" patches on their uniforms while kicking Chinese ass.

Boycotting Olympics is not going to solve anything.
I am more with boycotting trade with countries. We can learn to consume the things we make.

Boycotting Olympics is not going to solve anything.
I am more with boycotting trade with countries. We can learn to consume the things we make.

But we don't make things anymore....China is our factory :(

Boycott all that is China, bring back our the work we ship over there and remove that peg from China's playing board.

Especially boycott the Olympics, I'm sorry those are games folks not real honest to goodness jobs that improve the economy around them...

Boycott all that is China, bring back our the work we ship over there and remove that peg from China's playing board.

Especially boycott the Olympics, I'm sorry those are games folks not real honest to goodness jobs that improve the economy around them...

Yeah, we don't need sports! Lets make all those gifted athletes work in factories to save the country!

********. maybe commiting economic sepuku would be a good thing. not for us per se. but if it hands a better country to my un-born grandchildren, I can eat beans for a few years.

if it hands a better country to my un-born grandchildren, I can eat beans for a few years.

But would the resulting methane be more of a harm? Or can it be harnessed for energy?

I'd hate to see the harness.

I don't want to derail this thread further, but there is absolutely no way that we could survive a Chinese boycott. It may sound like a romantically idealistic notion, but it would end in catastrophe for us.

We don't depend on them for frivolous things. We depend on places like Europe and Japan for "wants". We depend on China for "needs".

Even if we could rebuild our manufacturing infrastructure overnight and somehow shoulder the higher prices that our domestic goods would cost, it wouldn't matter. China would dump their reserves, stop financing a large chunk of our debt, and bankrupt us.

With our dollar weakened to that extent, you'd be looking at $200-300/barrel oil at best. It would be prohibitively expensive for any of us to drive to work. The price of food would skyrocket (even more than it already has), since we all depend on food that's shipped thousands of miles. Not to mention the fertilizer used to grow it and the plastic used to package it are both petroleum products.

That would quickly spiral out of control. Starvation and lack of transportation don't very well facilitate a service based economy, nor the suburbanite urban sprawl that so many of us live in. When people get hungry, expect violence.

The faster our dollar falls due to this unrest and disruption of business, the more countries stop using it as a reserve currency. That uncertainty in the dollar causes even more countries to abandon or devalue it. It's a quick downward spiral once you hit the tipping point. We're seeing that happen even today.

As the dollar crashes, foreign money will be able to buy our companies and assets for pennies on the dollar. With that scenario playing out and China having one of the world's largest cash reserves; you'd better start learning Mandarin so that you can understand your new boss.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not all doom and gloom. Unlike some, I don't think this scenario is inevitable. Boycotting the Chinese would condemn us to it for sure though. We'd be nailing the last nail in our own coffin.

I'd hate to see the harness.

http://i.l.cnn.net/money/2008/02/26/news/international/kahn_biogas.fortune/sintex.03.jpg

Have to agree with Sanchek here. There's just no escaping the geopolitical reality we're living in with respect to China and our economic dependence on it.

Have to agree with Sanchek here. There's just no escaping the geopolitical reality we're living in with respect to China and our economic dependence on it.


Is there anything our leaders have not screwed up the last several decades?

Is there anything our leaders have not screwed up the last several decades?

They haven't screwed up sending our economic base overseas.

Seriously...I really can't think of one single thing.

Boycott all that is China, bring back our the work we ship over there and remove that peg from China's playing board.

Especially boycott the Olympics, I'm sorry those are games folks not real honest to goodness jobs that improve the economy around them...

This is either difficult to detect sarcasm, or downright epic stupid.

First off I'm not an expert on many of these issue in sufficient detail/true knowledege to offer real expertise in any form. that said i feel compelled to counsel for Lucifer.

When reading your responces i get the sense you believe it's already game over. our hands are trussed and spirits broken. nay my friends dash your hopes and wave the white flag of surrender and accept your slavery to our benevolent chinese overlords and with thankfullness and humility.

I prefer to take the other take on this and that is that it's nigh time, nay way over due for us to partake of revolution against this system of selling our lifesblood to the chinese. and in the end the solution is far simpiler than you would believe.

Jubilee! all of this debt we owe to china is not anything truely tangible. not gold nor jewels or our finest virgins it's simply paper. and not even really that truthfully it's just numbers that exist is some wierd Nth space. it's magical BS! wich is the purpose of the Fed. to create that wich does not nor rightfully should exsist.
Frakk it! declare it all null and void chapter 7 it(or is it 11, sorry i confuse the 2) what are they really gonna do? go to the UN?
Your assertions were OMG we are all gonna starve when i cant have my food shipped via container and trucked a thousand miles.
Again i call BS. I shit you not people i sit atm less than a mile away from some the richest farmland that exists on this earth! and the almost 30 years i've lived here i've seen it go 97% unitilized. have you eaten a washington apple in the last year? hope you realize your eating off the bottom the pile. the best of the crop is sent to SE Asia. go go free trade and corperate profits.

Again, OMFG my children will be forced to run naked through the streets if i cannot purchase cheaply made chinese clothes from Wall-Mart.
I choose the other view. I see southern farmers with a compelling need to get the cotton in the ground. i see the people of North Carolina and South Carolina taking up a purpose to refurbish the long dormant mills.

As far as housing other than the financing and the over-inflated market that resulted from it. was always a domestically produced product. wich is really, just numbers in Nth space.

A human really only needs 3 things to survive.
Food.
shelter.
Clothing.
Demonstrate to me how these 3 things cannot be achieved right here in the good ole'USA.
And if you so choose go ahead and accuse me of drinking the Kool-aid! cuz the Kool-aid(tm) I drink is the Audacitiy of hope and the belief that we can have a bright tommorow. what i refuse to believe in is that i should wave wave the flag of surrender!!!!!

When reading your responces i get the sense you believe it's already game over. our hands are trussed and spirits broken. nay my friends dash your hopes and wave the white flag of surrender and accept your slavery to our benevolent chinese overlords and with thankfullness and humility.

Your assertions were OMG we are all gonna starve when i cant have my food shipped via container and trucked a thousand miles.
Again i call BS. I shit you not people i sit atm less than a mile away from some the richest farmland that exists on this earth! and the almost 30 years i've lived here i've seen it go 97% unitilized. have you eaten a washington apple in the last year? hope you realize your eating off the bottom the pile. the best of the crop is sent to SE Asia. go go free trade and corperate profits.

A human really only needs 3 things to survive.
Food.
shelter.
Clothing.
Demonstrate to me how these 3 things cannot be achieved right here in the good ole'USA.


I AGREE so much. The folks who think we need other countries to feed us need to look things up. Our land is the some of the most fertile in the world. What our country has the potential to produce can feed the world 10 times over. There REALLY should be no need for starvation in this world. To produce what we need to live can be done here in the US.

The only need to survive that was missed on that list was "health care!". And we can even get that in the US from the abundance of smart people that are educated here.

I will never agree that we need the Chinese to keep our economy a float. We have had open trade with them and our ecomony has gone in the trash can still and if anything it might have alot to do with sending our spending money over there instead of here. We were warned years ago about that happening if we continued our open trade like we have.

I think it is high time we let go of slavery in third world countries and make corporations come back home if they want our money!

Your missing the point Starla.

Who would buy way over priced American goods when they can buy if from China..i.e. Other countrys to buy our products so we can keep americans employed. Many of our manufacturing companys in this country buy there raw materials from China as well, because they put other raw material companys out of buisness long time ago.

Hey thats great we can all turn into farmers and grow our own food, I like to garden...but you won't have a home because you wont have any income so to speak, you wont have any power to heat your home because once again you won't have a job to pay for it. Get it?

If America can afford what..hmm...400% increase in gas in the last what....6 years? Wasn't gas just like a dollar a gallon when the Clinton adminstration left office? And not to mention our housing........

I think we can afford a increase moving our goods back home. At least our money would stay here and not go over there. We need not employing slavery for cheaper goods we are going to pay a high price in the long run. The south when we were elminating slavery here said the same thing .....that things were going to go way up in price if they were not allowed to have free labor anymore. But it still was the best thing we ever did was getting rid of slavery. We need to treat every human well or it will come back to haunt us.

To stay cost effective, American companies have to buy raw materials and other items from China. To make money we not only sell our goods to American people who won't buy them because they cost to much to make, other countrys will not purchase them either because they can get them cheaper. Its not about our gas prices going up and what "Americans" can afford, its more about the companys who employ Americans who can't afford. I don't think your in the loop much on manufacturing Starla. Its a nice thought but you want unemployment at its worse level probably in the history of this country...piss off China or India at a lesser scale.

Self sufficiency is a goal well worth pursuing. It is not something that will happen overnight, but with enough small steps over time it might eventually be feasible. I'm talking about a timescale of, say, 50-100 years.

In the meantime, the more progress we make toward self sufficiency, the less leverage other countries will have over us.

We're a large country, both geographically and in terms of population. We can still specialize within the country; there is no need for everyone to grow their own food, etc.

There was no tongue in cheek when I said we should boycott China's Olympics. I fully feel as though every country should do so.

I'm also serious when I say we need to start moving away from Chinese dependence. Was one of the most short sighted mistakes in my memory.

China puts out an inferior, and as of late dangerous products in the manufacturing world. They are also trashing their own local ecosystems at a rapid rate. We're doing them no favors by sending our manufacturing over to them.

Regardless of what happens, we owe China over 350 billion dollars... Slapping them in the face in anyway would be detrimental to the United States.

I dunno... Maybe we should launch a pre-emptive strike since they are so evil and oppress their own people. Oh I forgot.. they would actually be tough. Pick a smaller target for the war Fandros, and we can just boycott the olympics to really show China who's boss!

Ahhh I mention a mature response and you show your true colors. Thanks Jedd for showing why you are irrevelent to this country as well as to these boards.

You think it's a good idea for us to pump millions into their economy while they terrorize Tibet? Of course you do, your way is the way of the despot, long as it's not America eh?

I usually don't like to comment on these China threads, given that I was born in Taiwan but consider myself Chinese and for the fact that I left Taiwan when I was 12.

It's interesting to note that Ma Ying-Jeou, who is known to be pro-China, was voted overwhelmingly in to the Republic of China (Taiwan) Presidential office by 58% this Saturday to 42%, against Shieh Chang-Tin (pro-Taiwan independence). That is a miraculous almost 20 percentage point lead, with Taiwan rejecting both propositions to join the United Nations as "Taiwan," instead of applying as their official name, the "Republic of China." The Presidential Elections in Taiwan and the rejection of both UN referendums shows that things in Asia are going to be quite different in the coming years.

There is more than meets the eye to the Tibet issue. The Dalai Lama is not as nice as a guy as you might think. Before the civil war between the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China (present-day "Taiwan"), look at the facts:

(1) The Dalai Lama lived in a Palace with servants and drafted methods of torture for law enforcement which included eye gouging;

(2) Received $180,000 a year from CIA for spying on Chinese

(3) Received $400,000 to form a "Tibetan Guerilla Force" which was sent to Colorado for training

(1) cited by http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html
(2), (3) cited by http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEFD61538F931A35753C1A96E9582 60

From all of the reports I've read (Taiwan and Chinese-American newspapers in LA), the Tibetans have been the ones to initiate violence. This isn't Gandhi-esque demonstrations here. These are genuine riots. Tibetan mobs are roaming the streets of Lhasa beating on Han Chinese, as well as the Hui ethnic minority (a largely Muslim group). The Hui mosque in Lhasa has been burned down, and much of the violence is now between these ethnic groups. Gunshots echo throughout the city. The goal of the Tibetan separatists want to expel everyone from the plateau that's not Tibetan.

I know that there are many Tibetan-sympathizers here, and I understand that the way that China has cracked down on Tibet in the past has been brutal. But consider getting some other points of views before you hand judgement.

What sucks about the Tibetan situation is that there's no true way to get the truth about the situation. Western media is enchanted with the idea of Tibet rather than the reality. Tibetans make up 40% of the population in Lhasa. We take the Dalai Lhama's word as gospel, even though he definitely has his own incentive to distort the truth (I'm not saying he is distorting the truth, however). And we obviously can't get the straight talk from the Chinese government.

And I'm sorry, asking someone to look inside their own glass house is legitimate. It looks very hypocritical to the world when Americans condemn something like the Chinese control of Tibet, while our own country is occupying Iraq and committing our own human rights violations there. And we at least have the power to vote the bastards out of office!

This is coming from someone who was taught the history of Tibet in Taiwan as one that was very brutal (both recent and earlier history; Han Chinese and local Tibetans were de facto slaves of the Dalai Lama) and coming from someone who learned about American history and native Americans.

I wonder if many of you have heard about Chinese muslims (the Hui ethnicity). They are given special rights and privileges, and the constitution of the PRC guarantees them seats in the PRC's Congress as one of the 56 ethnic minorities in China.

Ahhh I mention a mature response and you show your true colors. Thanks Jedd for showing why you are irrevelent to this country as well as to these boards.

You think it's a good idea for us to pump millions into their economy while they terrorize Tibet? Of course you do, your way is the way of the despot, long as it's not America eh?

I have no love for China and what they are doing... I was simply pointing out the fact that we will do nothing about it no matter what our discussions here suggest, and how if they were a much weaker country and had huge oil reserves, we would be making a case for war.

Youch Rybit it's apparent I have a macro view of the situation and you have spot on info.

Why would such a tiny country stick a thumb directly into China's eye? I'm sure there are thousands of years of history between the two. Hell I barely have a inkling of what's going on between China and Taiwan let alone Tibet.

Thanks for the info, I'll have to rethink my viewpoint on the Chinese olympics.

I apologize for taking this thread in another direction. I realize i derailed it and I am sorry :(

Regardless of what the real deal is, China does in fact appear to have things to hide. Why censor any and everything about Tibet including the protests by the French group at the torch lighting today?

I will not disagree our knowledge is one sided but something seems fishy about China's behavior in that regard IMO. I am happy to see your perspective however Rybit and welcome your input. My knowledge of China is growing quite a bit just b/c of discussions with my brother who is applying for a Chinese Green Card and driver's license. He actually has to go back in two weeks, it's looking like if he wants to keep his job he's going to have to move there or go every 4 weeks instead of every 6 weeks.

Thanks a lot for giving some more in depth information on this subject, Rybit. I knew very little of the history of the Dalai Lama other than movies and such, and a few books of fiction. Our history classes related to China and Tibet in the 60's were not that full of real data, due to the closed society of China in those times.

China has not fully emerged from the Communist society run by Mao, and the media will have constraints for some time yet, I am sure.

I did find it worth watching the elections in Taiwan, and the results will make the region definitely worth paying attention to as tensions should be lowered.

I again want to echo Taleran's post, that we should not punish athletes that have spent their lives preparing to compete against one another by tying their event to politics; the governments already attempt that enough.

We do need to get our country moving in some different directions economically, however, so that a behemoth like China is not holding the proverbial "Damocle's Sword" over our heads. I am keeping my fingers crossed that our elections are held and honored, though it will take several elections before any significant change can actually be experienced by the average joe.

Just wanted to add an interesting point: The Republic of China (that is, Taiwan) constitution lays claim to Tibet and even Mongolia as part of its territories, for those of you looking into this issue. Republic of China (Taiwan) President-elect Ma Ying-Jeou remarked, "The Tibetans should decide their own future," because he can't even fully endorse independence of Tibet because Taiwan also lays a claim to it too. The most President Ma could do is criticize China's crack down on Tibet.

From watching the news that I get at home from my Chinese network satellite (I get news from Hong Kong, Singapore, the Mainland, and Taiwan), a Hong Kong news reporter remarked that Ma Ying-Jeou's criticism of China's handling of Tibet and Olympics boycott bluff was all for show (basically telling Beijing not to worry once he gets into office since he had to first get votes).

Makes sense since Ma is very warm to the Mainland.

If you read the Chinese version of Xinhua, they really love this Ma Ying-Jeou guy, starting their articles in Chinese with "Harvard-educated lawyer Ma Ying-Jeou," not to say this man is extremely intelligent and will definitely leave a huge mark in the future of Taiwan and China.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/tw/2008-03/23/content_7842421.htm
(Growing up and introduction to Ma Ying-Jeou)
http://news.xinhuanet.com/tw/2008-03/18/content_7812255.htm
(Always smiling President-elect; many Taiwanese ladies consider him very handsome)

http://news.xinhuanet.com/tw/2008-02/27/content_7678770.htm
(Potentially unsafe for work if you don't want to see a 57-year old man in tight speedos with Taiwanese swimmers)

http://news.xinhuanet.com/tw/2008-03/23/content_7842038.htm
(OK, I'm done translating....)
http://news.xinhuanet.com/tw/2008-03/22/content_7839364.htm

OK. I just realized my English is all messed up from being in Hong Kong, Mainland, and Taiwan for 3 weeks.

And I'm sorry, asking someone to look inside their own glass house is legitimate. It looks very hypocritical to the world when Americans condemn something like the Chinese control of Tibet, while our own country is occupying Iraq and committing our own human rights violations there. And we at least have the power to vote the bastards out of office!
Just a quick comment on this--many Americans are just as critical, if not more so, of the U.S. government as we are of the governments of other countries. The way I see it, we disagree on solutions, which makes it difficult for change to actually occur, but that doesn't mean we approve of the status quo.

The way I see it, we disagree on solutions, which makes it difficult for change to actually occur, but that doesn't mean we approve of the status quo.

Damn, that sure was nicely put! :)

Dern that Palarran, always a calm center ;P

Heard an interesting interview today with a sportswriter (sorry name escapes me) who said look to many an athlete to make condeming protest's/statements during the games.
Most particularly from NBA team members of whom many have already been outspoken about chinese human rights issues. mostly because they already have lots of money in pocket, jobs back home, and will not face the negative repurcussions that other athletes may endure.

I have no love for China and what they are doing... I was simply pointing out the fact that we will do nothing about it no matter what our discussions here suggest, and how if they were a much weaker country and had huge oil reserves, we would be making a case for war.


Oil reserves. Or massive water reserves that tie the entire area of India China.
http://www.japanfocus.org/products/details/2458

Tibet's vast glaciers and high altitude have endowed it with the world's greatest river systems. Its river waters are a lifeline to the world's two most-populous states — China and India — as well as to Bangladesh, Myanmar, Bhutan, Nepal, Cambodia, Pakistan, Laos, Thailand and Vietnam. These countries make up 47 percent of the global population.

The 10 major watersheds formed by the Himalayas and Tibetan highlands spread out river waters far and wide in Asia. Control over the 2.5 million-square-km Tibetan plateau gives China tremendous leverage, besides access to vast natural resources. Having extensively contaminated its own major rivers through unbridled industrialization,
And as water woes have intensified in several major Chinese cities, a group of ex-officials have championed the northward rerouting of the waters of the Brahmaputra in a book titled "Tibet's Waters Will Save China."

Large hydro projects and reckless exploitation of mineral resources already threaten Tibet's fragile ecosystems, with ore tailings beginning to contaminate water sources. Unmindful of the environmental impact of such activities in pristine areas, China has now embarked on constructing a 108-km paved road to Mount Everest, located along the Tibet-Nepal frontier. This highway is part of China's plan to reinforce its claims on Tibet by taking the Olympic torch to the peak of the world's tallest mountain before the 2008 Beijing Games.

There was no tongue in cheek when I said we should boycott China's Olympics. I fully feel as though every country should do so.

I thought it was obvious I was talking about the second line, the one about sports not influencing the economy. That's near Dick Cheney levels of ignoring reality.

That was some eye-opening info, Nekko.

I had no idea of the water/river systems of Tibet, and that helps explain China not wanting to relinquish control of the region.

I thought it was obvious I was talking about the second line, the one about sports not influencing the economy. That's near Dick Cheney levels of ignoring reality.

Errr every country that attends will pump money into their economy. I live in Utah which held the Winter Olympics in 2002. Our economy was most definately influenced.

Perhaps we should boycott ourselves soon, at this rate:

Y7NUNwq2MGc

Sanchek This country has such a negative view towards protests it is sickening.

I took part in a few protests of the Iraq War before it started, and the support out on the street is usually amazing. When you hear people talk about it though there is always this BS you hear about how those of us who protest are just trouble makers. The police seem to ascribe to the same idea. I am sure it comes from experiences with actual trouble makers during protests, however the overall attitude of the Police is usually "You shouldn't be here" and that is disturbing. This is America, and if I want to protest the price of toothpaste I don't wanna hear shit from anyone.

Errr every country that attends will pump money into their economy. I live in Utah which held the Winter Olympics in 2002. Our economy was most definately influenced.

You must be a terrible, terrible reader.

This is America, and if I want to protest the price of toothpaste I don't wanna hear shit from anyone.

Your freedom of speech trumps other's freedom of speech?

You just don't get it. Freedom of speech doesn't mean others have to pipe down, and listen to only you, it means the Government can't haul you off for protesting.

You REALLY need to get out of the country more, and learn to appriceate the freedoms you have....

You just don't get it. Freedom of speech doesn't mean others have to pipe down, and listen to only you, it means the Government can't haul you off for protesting.


Unless of course you are protesting the treatment of say Tibet outside of say the UN.

It always makes me cringe when people compare our freedom to that of an Eastern dictatorship in order to highlight our qualities.

that video was disturbing. I hope the police officers are handled accordingly that's messed up.

They use provisions in the patriot act to justify their actions. Much love to those that voted for and support our fast track towards a Soviet/Chinese styly of policing and human rights.

I hope ya'll are happy!

Your freedom of speech trumps other's freedom of speech?

You just don't get it. Freedom of speech doesn't mean others have to pipe down, and listen to only you, it means the Government can't haul you off for protesting.

You REALLY need to get out of the country more, and learn to appriceate the freedoms you have....

And you didn't watch the video? I am merely pointing out a mindset that leaves people like you to justify the actions of the cops.

You can't expect to be able to shove a police officer, disrupt traffic by protesting in the street and not get a reaction.

You can't expect to be able to shove a police officer, disrupt traffic by protesting in the street and not get a reaction.

I doubt the protestors shoved the police until after the police became beligerent and started acting irationaly, the video also shows them walking on the the sidewalk so that excuse doesnt cut it either.

If I am crossing the street and a police officer pushes me and threatens me, I will push him right back and demand he get out of my way. To attempt to Stop their protest is unamerican, I wonder if some people here wouldnt mind losing the right to protest due to security and traffic concerns.

If I am crossing the street and a police officer pushes me and threatens me, I will push him right back and demand he get out of my way.


And get a face full of mace for your effort.

What part of non-violent protest don't you get?

What if the officer is trying to get you to stop, because your fool ass is walking into an area that was irradiated by a "dirty bomb", contaminated by sarin, or smallpox?

Or in a more likely scenario, trying to keep you from getting your fool head shot off, while they are trying to handle a volatile situation.
.
Would you want him to push you back then?

Or would you sue the police department, because they didn't "Serve and Protect" you?

Come on.

The police are supposed to keep the peace. Instead, those guys repeatedly, forcibly escalated a peaceful situation to violence. Seriously, a mass of dozens of cops nightsticking monks? In front of the UN?

Pre-Patriot Act, that would be Rodney King bad. Now, it's just the status quo.

And get a face full of mace for your effort.

What part of non-violent protest don't you get?

What if the officer is trying to get you to stop, because your fool ass is walking into an area that was irradiated by a "dirty bomb", contaminated by sarin, or smallpox?

Or in a more likely scenario, trying to keep you from getting your fool head shot off, while they are trying to handle a volatile situation.
.
Would you want him to push you back then?

Or would you sue the police department, because they didn't "Serve and Protect" you?

Your hypothetical situation is laughable. If the Police told me why instead of just yelling at me, then I would stop.

However as you can see from the video... The police actually drove their vehicles onto the sidewalk in an attempt to stop the protest. Thereby dangerously forcing the protesters who have the right to pass on the sidewalk, to step into the street.

Face full of mace? You prove the point of how misused our police are.

Instead of wasting time with a peaceful protest in front of the UN they should go after the 15 criminals that will most likely get away due to a lack of police presence.

Your hypothetical situation is laughable. If the Police told me why instead of just yelling at me, then I would stop.
Have you ever had to deal woth the general public? Do you know how stupid and pig-headed people can be?

I worked in retail for many years, and I can tell you: people can get really, really stupid.
I remember 1 time, when I was working for Best Buy, there was a release of a new rap CD that came out. They had a display set up near the front door, and a lot of people were buying them.

This one guy breaks for the door, with a CD in his hand, trying to run out without paying.
At the time, the Regional Manager for Security was in the store, and all of the Security personnel were in a meeting. At the front door security desk, was 1 of the stock guys, who stood about 6'4 and probably weighed 240 lbs.

Just as the guy was passing him, he put his arm out, and clotheslined the guy. This guy hit the ground, hard. I saw both of his legs fly out from under him, and up into the air.
All the time this guy is yelling "Let me go man, I don't want to go back to jail!"

Risking his probation, so he can get the latest "Hommie Home" CD. There's a smart guy.

I wish I could say that was the only incident in which something like that happened, but it was just 1 of many, and that was a retail environment.

Imagine being a police officer, and having to deal with people in less than ideal conditions.


Instead of wasting time with a peaceful protest in front of the UN they should go after the 15 criminals that will most likely get away due to a lack of police presence.
How many protests bill themselves as "violent"? All protests are peaceful, till some a-hole decides that's not getting the message across. The he decides to set a car on fire/put a trashcan through a shop window/start punching the counter protesters.

I can't see the video from work, but when I get home, I'll be sure to view it. If the police were unprovoked, then they should be repremanded.

However to expect no police presence at such an event, is folly to say the least.

Have you ever had to deal woth the general public? Do you know how stupid and pig-headed people can be?

I worked in retail for many years, and I can tell you: people can get really, really stupid.
I remember 1 time, when I was working for Best Buy, there was a release of a new rap CD that came out. They had a display set up near the front door, and a lot of people were buying them.

This one guy breaks for the door, with a CD in his hand, trying to run out without paying.
At the time, the Regional Manager for Security was in the store, and all of the Security personnel were in a meeting. At the front door security desk, was 1 of the stock guys, who stood about 6'4 and probably weighed 240 lbs.

Just as the guy was passing him, he put his arm out, and clotheslined the guy. This guy hit the ground, hard. I saw both of his legs fly out from under him, and up into the air.
All the time this guy is yelling "Let me go man, I don't want to go back to jail!"

Risking his probation, so he can get the latest "Hommie Home" CD. There's a smart guy.

I wish I could say that was the only incident in which something like that happened, but it was just 1 of many, and that was a retail environment.

Imagine being a police officer, and having to deal with people in less than ideal conditions.


How many protests bill themselves as "violent"? All protests are peaceful, till some a-hole decides that's not getting the message across. The he decides to set a car on fire/put a trashcan through a shop window/start punching the counter protesters.

I can't see the video from work, but when I get home, I'll be sure to view it. If the police were unprovoked, then they should be repremanded.

However to expect no police presence at such an event, is folly to say the least.

We can discuss more after you have viewed it.

They were walking around with flags. They weren't yelling or acting aggressive at all. Even while they were getting beat down by multiple officers, they were almost completely docile.

You should wait and watch the video before commenting on it further. You're right that some protests get way out of hand, but this is not anything remotely like that.

I watched it several times Sanchek and it looked to me like the initial instigators were a few of the protesters who were refusing to stay on the sidewalk. The officers were trying to herd the protestors onto the sidewalk and out of the street. The protesters ignored it (look around 0:48 at the protestor standing in the middle of the street with a flag). Then the protestors started shoving police when they weren't let on the street (it looks like one of the protestors tried to hit a policeman with his fists). I would also be curious what the selective editing left out. Watch the video without the moronic running commentary, and you can view it in a more neutral manner.

It looked to me like they were properly crossing in the crosswalk, when Delgatto started pushing them around. Judging from the flow of traffic, they weren't even jaywalking.

You can't expect to be able to shove a police officer, disrupt traffic by protesting in the street and not get a reaction.


Ummm...I saw people who were NOT blocking traffic, who were NOT shoving police officers and who were NOT violent in any way except if perhaps in defending themselves.

You should be quite ashamed of yourself, you are more and more becoming the classic anti-american in your it's A-OK if the government is doing it to the people. Those cops were antagonistic, and purposely baiting those protesters into breaking te law, that is not an opinion it is a fact.

I hope you get the country you want Furtivus, you most certainly deserve it.

You must have missed the guys shoving the cops and the guys standing in the street. Put it on pause and watch it in slow motion frame by frame (I noted one instance of a guy standing in the street, and you can see many more throughout -- the camera guy actually does a pretty good job of staying on the sidewalk so he gets some good shots of the guys in the street). You can also see two guys trying to go onto the street at 1:13 to block traffic. Also note the edits in the video. You don't cut out that which is helpful to your cause (and the commentator clearly has an agenda he wants to show).

At the end of the march, it appears the ones that assaulted the cops were arrested. Once the street is clear, the protest appears to happen without further incident.

Were the cops assholes? Sure, I think most yankees are assholes. It's not because they're cops; it's something NY does to you.

All I saw at 1:13 was a kid running away from the sidewalk, after the police drove a van into the crowd on the sidewalk. You know, I can see how the police driving their vehicles into your group on the sidewalk would make it a less than ideal place to be...

You're assuming that the breaks in the video are selective editing, but that's just an assumption. They literally said "I'll kill you" and then told the camera operator to turn off his camera. It's very possible that the camera just wasn't recording the entire time.

I agree that it would've been better to see every second in high quality, but there are contiguous segments where you can clearly see the police going from 0 to violent without any provocation. I have a hard time giving the police the benefit of the doubt here, with what information is available.

If I am crossing the street and a police officer pushes me and threatens me, I will push him right back and demand he get out of my way. To attempt to Stop their protest is unamerican, I wonder if some people here wouldnt mind losing the right to protest due to security and traffic concerns.


Wrong on both counts.

If an officer pushes you as you describe, you get the badge number of the officer and the names of witnesses and file a brutality complaint. Putting your hands on the officer is to lose your case, as you are now the focus for being disorderly, rather than the officer for his actions.

Almost every city has laws governing protests, to ensure the protests do not interfere with commerce and traffic patterns, or at least to minimize the affect. Permits are required, delineating the area which is permitted for the protest. This allows the protesters their right to free speech while not forcing that on those who are not taking part. Your "rights" should never infringe on the "rights" of others. Protesting without adhering to local laws is unlawful, and can legally be stopped.

BTW, please note I am responding to what was quoted, not to the video, so please lets not rush to "but the video showed".

Wrong on both counts.

If an officer pushes you as you describe, you get the badge number of the officer and the names of witnesses and file a brutality complaint. Putting your hands on the officer is to lose your case, as you are now the focus for being disorderly, rather than the officer for his actions.

Almost every city has laws governing protests, to ensure the protests do not interfere with commerce and traffic patterns, or at least to minimize the affect. Permits are required, delineating the area which is permitted for the protest. This allows the protesters their right to free speech while not forcing that on those who are not taking part. Your "rights" should never infringe on the "rights" of others. Protesting without adhering to local laws is unlawful, and can legally be stopped.

BTW, please note I am responding to what was quoted, not to the video, so please lets not rush to "but the video showed".

Paying to get a permit to protest is the dumbest shit I have ever heard of.

Those permit issues, especially when considering reasonable locations (like in front of the UN), have a long history of being declared unconstitutional when challenged in court.

Paying to get a permit to protest is the dumbest shit I have ever heard of.

I won't argue that, but it is the law. Without regulation of protests, anybody could disrupt anybody else's business, or traffic (folks going to or from school or work), or cause safety hazards, etc.

Paying for a permit in accordance with regulations prevents a bunch of skinheads from deciding they want to screw with mid-east or Asian business owners by blocking the entrances to their businesses with an "immigration" protest. Who would you choose to support in that scenario? The skinheads or the city that stops the protests?

I won't argue that, but it is the law. Without regulation of protests, anybody could disrupt anybody else's business, or traffic (folks going to or from school or work), or cause safety hazards, etc.

Paying for a permit in accordance with regulations prevents a bunch of skinheads from deciding they want to screw with mid-east or Asian business owners by blocking the entrances to their businesses with an "immigration" protest. Who would you choose to support in that scenario? The skinheads or the city that stops the protests?

A man with no money should be able to protest if he wishes... Perhaps a Protest permit that does not need to be issued, but rather a week notice given to the city so that they can be ready.

There should be no reason why you would be denied from a certain area as long as you respect the law, and act civilized.

Now if you plan on blocking the streets to protest, or you plan on any kind of major closure, then I understand. However standing on the sidewalk with a sign and no permit should not warrant a beating and an arrest.

A man with no money should be able to protest if he wishes... Perhaps a Protest permit that does not need to be issued, but rather a week notice given to the city so that they can be ready.

There should be no reason why you would be denied from a certain area as long as you respect the law, and act civilized.

Now if you plan on blocking the streets to protest, or you plan on any kind of major closure, then I understand. However standing on the sidewalk with a sign and no permit should not warrant a beating and an arrest.


Permits also allow for the police officers to cordon off the street to protect the protesters from being run over.

Were you watching the same video as me? I saw at least 1 person walking in the street with the flow of traffic (against the law) heard a lot of yelling (not very civilized).

No one was just standing on the sidewalk with a sign. They looked like a rowdy bunch of kids, with no respect for the police officers. They were definitely breaking the law in regards to walking in the street, and yelling.

Now here are a few protests that were peaceful, and the complete opposites of what those other kids were doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhOMX4qdMm4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxEkj40bRII&feature=related

They walked in the street because the police blocked the sidewalk.

You know, when a cop shows up on a scene he has an obligation to not push a situation to get out of hand. Cops are still governed by the same laws and rules they enforce, why do you think they wanted the camera off? Because they were afraid of that old "the camera puts on 10lbs thing?

President George Bush has finally weighed in, talking directly with China's President to protest the treatment of the monks, and convey how this controversy should be handled more delicately, and journalists allowed into the area to see what is taking place and to interview those involved.

" Say, there, Hu Jintao bow wow, hehehe. How ya doin? I need ta ask ya a favor, if ya kin tone down the troops beating on them nutty monk fellers? I'm gettin' a lot of flak here, and what with my focus on the surge, it is really making it hard to concentrate. Oh, yeah, while I got ya on the phone, I got to say 'oopsy', we goofed. Seems we sent the wrong crates to Taiwan, and they got some silly lil nuclear triggers a year and a half back. We caught the mistake now tho', and are on top of it, so no worries, hehehe. Well, I'll be seeing ya at the opening cereminies, so hope ya have some beef chow mein ready. Bye now, ya'll."

Apparently, the violent monks aren't actually monks. You can find the story most anywhere, but this picture says it all:

That's fairly damning.

That's fairly damning.

I am so glad you did not drop that 'l', as "fairy damning" would have made those soldiers look almost Monty Pythonish in their attempts to cast a negative light on the true monks.

The Olympic Committee has more backbone and brass than I expected.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3659665.ece

China’s Great Firewall must be lifted during the Olympic Games to ensure free access to the rest of the world.

That was the message from the International Olympic Committee (IOC) to the Beijing organisers of the Games during meetings that will be the last official sessions between IOC inspectors and the Chinese hosts before the Games open on August 8.

That is huge. The firewall being lifted is likely cause the communist party leaders to go into epileptic seizures at the thought of the potential loss of control. Yowsa.

That really is pretty big, I guess part of me will believe it when I see it =P

I revoke my wish to see us boycott the olympics. I instead say we should merely boycott the opening ceremonies.

Hmmm wonder if they'll go into every Chinese house and remove all the computers for the duration of the olympics and then remove the firewall. lol

I revoke my wish to see us boycott the olympics. I instead say we should merely boycott the opening ceremonies.

Hmmm wonder if they'll go into every Chinese house and remove all the computers for the duration of the olympics and then remove the firewall. lol

Who knows, maybe the firewall will come down, and after it goes back up they will notice no one rioted and went crazy over new information and maybe change will slowly occur in China.

I would assume they'll just drop the firewall for approved places where foreign guests are staying, if they do it. That would be trivially easy, compared to the scope of their censoring operation.

I'm sure Cisco (http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/2005/07/68326) will show them how.

That is an interesting article Akipt. I've been watching what Cisco has been doing in regards to the China market for a while now. And while they aren't necessarily tailoring their equipment for China, they are certainly enabling China and its policy of information control.

Of course, I've worked for companies that did/do the exact same thing (packet filtering). The difference being that we didn't stomp on the human rights issues, we just didnt want people looking at porn on corporate assets.

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/photographer/20/20534_large.jpg

dont go overboard sanchek, that megaphone is clearly made in taiwan!