good on these guys (http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local-beat/Time-In-Prison--70426052.html?yhp=1)

I don't like the concept of tipping. I hate tipping being added on as some bullshit service charge even more because then the wait staff can deliver piss poor service but you still have to "reward them' anyway and usually more than the standard 15%. I do it because in the US we are morally obligated(and apprently legally as well), but in the rest of the world people are paid enough by their employer to have a living wage and you do NOT tip. If they render poor service...well, they get fired. Its that easy. Charge more for the fucking food/drink/whatever if you have to but at least then the price on the menu is actually what you pay.

This couple deserves a medal, not a rap sheet. Beats me why the cops even arrested them. Hopefully the judge will throw the case out.

They weren't technically legally obligated to tip, the contract they verbally entered into by ordering food with a large party included a "service fee." I realize the distinction is somewhat douchey but that's why the restaurant was able to charge them with a crime of not paying for their provided meal, as opposed to charitably providing a tip, which would not have been.

Tipping is an odd custom. I've much preferred the places I've traveled where it wasn't done. It's the American Dream though, bribe your way to success! :>

I waited tables and bar tended in Chicago while going to collage, This is two sided you can complain about the service when you enter a busy establishment as mentioned. It can also be the servers fault the cooks or the customer for being to demanding.

If your going to be a dick or run me to death when Im working 6-10 tables your service and everyone elses is going to suffer. Actually some people do it just to push how far they can go. they have made movies about this.

If you go into a busy restaurant or sports bar like this couple seemed to have done and sat in the bar you should expect your service to less than stellar. Adain if you are demanding Im going to get drinks to others and prolly not be able to run your food. Your at the mercy of other waitstaff to pick up the initiative and grab it out of the window to bring to you, Will they bring you silverware that isnt at the bar top table I doubt it. Most of those people only care about there own tables since thats the only money source they have.

If your a six top and a bunch of asses, well hey Ill get my auto grat and hope you move the hell on.


Its not the way I prefered to take care of my customers but customer service as a whole is in the freacking tank as far as Im concerened. Expectations go both ways. Benagins and there timer lunch as an example bankrupctied the company by setting an impossible expection.


You get what you pay for, go to a mass market food source and expect 4 star service your going to leave dissapointed. Go to a 4 star restuarant and then you can bitch if your waiters assistant doesnt fill your water.

But crying cause your in a bar and your not getting every whim taken care of is just BS these people deserved what they got more than likely imo. Id like to hear from the other 4 people at the table and the waiter to make a better judgement call. I could go on people suck in general and the things I have seen people do for a free meal amaze me.'

Blame the waiter who is just trying to make a buck to go to school or raise a kid. Like any industry there are bad people but there are also people who take pride in what they do even if its listen to you whine about how fast your water was filled or not filled with a lemon to your satisfaction.

Blame restaurant owners. They'd have to raise prices to accommodate actual wages (and Americans don't like paying sane prices, we believe in cheap labor), and split the profit they make already. Which is not to say that restaurant owners get rich as it is, just that they are the ones who control that aspect of the system.

When I was waiting tables, pain in the ass tables got the bare minimum. That was about the time I figured I was bitter and it was time to quit, but why whore yourself out for a buck? Now in the story, it might really be a disaster and the couple was justified, but if it's like any restaurant and crowded and busy, waiting an hour isn't unusual. I tend to be jaded towards customers.

Nekko I guess I can understand if you worked as a waiter/bartender the mindset that these customers should be locked up with the key thrown out.

But I 100% completely don't agree. I don't even care if its a contract issue. Its a piss poor business practice and its about time someone said this is crap and I am not going along with it. Otherwise change never happens.

I don't agree that tips have to be the primary source of income and I certainly do NOT agree with listing a price as being X and than tacking on a 18% gratuity automatically. Make the cost of the meal be what it really is and then its on the customer to tip as much as they deem fit and on the waitstaff to do a good job as well at the establishment where they work to have adequate coverage. If service is shit...no tip. Don't expect anyone to feel sorry for waitstaff if the food is cold and the service is ass. If its a place where its always packed such as a club or a bar...charge accordingly to reflect that and then pay the staff enough to offset tips but don't force the customer to pay a "tip" for shit service!

I have had tips be a supplement to income but it was not the primary source. More just a perk ( I detailed cars and delivered pizza). If I did a good job I got a tip. If things went wrong and I gave service that was just ok or not so much than no tip but the carwash/pizza joint still paid my salary which in both cases was above standard minimum wage. I could live off the salary alone if I had to. For waitstaff, no way can anyone get by on 3 dollars an hour. So it would be better if food cost what it cost, including the overhead of the help...and could actually REWARD someone for doing a good job. IDGAF if its 2 people or 20 people. Mando tipping is bullshit.

methinks you've been in China too long!

What does that have to do with anything? I guess not wanting to pay for shit service is decidedly Un-American?

Well, thanks for playing. Pretty sure there will be some threads for the usual Koolaid swilling soon enough. Party on Wayne and party on Garth.

I am an excellent tipper when I receive good service (somewhere between 20-25%). I however won't tip well when the service is subpar. Sure some customers are too demanding, but expecting your server to get you refills or silverware is too much Nekko? Really? Really? You surely can't be justifying the customer having to get their own drinks and silverware in a restaurant?

If the server isn't doing their job, then they shouldn't be expecting a tip. Period. If I have to get my own drinks and silverware, why the fuck am I paying for going out to dinner? If I have to do the shit myself, what's the point?

If you're not aware of numbers, minimum wage for servers is somewhere around $2.13 in most places, except areas the unions won such as California. the problem is that in the food industry the tip is no longer a bonus, it's part of the paycheck. I'm not defending poor service - but even if you did a crap job detailing I'm assuming you still got paid.

At one fine dining establishment, after a year's work, I received a five cent raise and was making $2.18 an hour. That's considered pretty darn good depending on the type of restaurant.

If the patron isn't being provided the service they are paying for (and yeah refills for drinks are built into the price, and the establishment providing silverware) than they shouldn't be expected to pay EXTRA for service they didn't receive.

I feel poorly for servers only making $2.13 an hour. I refuse to tip them well if they aren't doing their job though (and yes, 18% is tipping fairly well).

There are other things your tip goes to other than the server, as well. Servers do something called "tipping out" at the end of the night, mandatory payment of 1% to 4% of their sales to the food runners, bartenders, bar backs, busboys, etc. Even for awful service I leave 5% so the server doesn't end up owing money on my table. That being said, I ALWAYS notify the management of bad service so they can remedy that (and often I'll get my meal comped, etc.)

Its a weird system we developed over the years, but no one deserves to go to work for an evening and owe their boss instead of getting paid.

I said tip them "well," not "not tip them at all."

In my entire adult life, I've only not tipped one time.

We were in the Cheesecake Factory. We get to our seat, and they don't have a children's menu. Oh well, Maya can share a meal with us, or pick something she wants, not a big deal.

The waiter comes to our table to get our drink order. He took my drink order, he took my wife's drink order, and then he walked away swiftly without even acknowledging my daughter. Then he comes back, and we inform him that our daughter would like something to drink too. He rolled his eyes and said he'd get her some milk that we asked for. He came back with my wife and my drinks without anything for our daughter, no apology or even acknowledgment of her again. Finally, he brings her water (we ordered milk), and we prepare to order our meals. Again, he gets my order, my wife's order, and before Maya can order he again walks away. Finally, he comes back to the table with Maya's milk, and we inform him he didn't take Maya's order (again he rolled his eyes, no apology, no nothing). Eventually he brings us my wife and my meal, again forgetting Maya's order or even acknowledging that it might take a bit because it was ordered later.

Ultimately, when we were done, his tip line was "Fuck you for ignoring our child." I then emailed The Cheesecake Factory and described our experience, and never even got so much as an acknowledgment from them. Needless to say we've never been back (and the restaurant is 1.5 miles from our home).

I generally tip, if the service was ok. I tip well if the service was exceptional (Coming by after delivering the food to ensure everything is ok, refilling drinks before they are emptied, maybe even a little flirting).

However if the service is poor, no tip. I never feel guilty about this. It was one of the sore points my X-wife had with me,

However, I have also delivered pizzas in the past, so I know you generally get a good tip, if you are good at what you do.
I even got a $50 tip one night for delivering 15 pizzas, all of them still steaming hot. I had done an exceptional job, and was rewarded accordingly. I just hated that my car smelled like stale pizza all the time......

What does that have to do with anything? I guess not wanting to pay for shit service is decidedly Un-American?

Well, thanks for playing. Pretty sure there will be some threads for the usual Koolaid swilling soon enough. Party on Wayne and party on Garth.

Is it true or not true that in most places in China tipping is considered un-necessary? This may be more of a commonality in non-westernized China.

And wow you really do get defensive over little things man, life is too short to be so angsty over a message board. I didn't mean my post offensive, seriously. I'll just stop replying to you so as to not cause angst, it seems like that's happening too much here which is why I hardly post much in this section it's like everyone here is just waiting to pounce on anyone that even remotely disagrees with what they say. =\

Other people have made that comment here on these boards, Fildien. I won't name any names but sometimes you have to say WTF. It used to be funny. Now I am tempted to just tell you to fuck off. That make sense?

There are MANY places in the world ( I might add most) where tipping is not expected, but is appreciated. No one is going to be insulted by getting paid additional money (unless you are Japanese) and they will not be insulted either by NOT being tipped but typically it is on the customer if they feel it is warranted. The service provider is still making a suitable wage to make a living. Even if they never received tip one. If they get a tip, than its theirs. Not the busboy's or the cook's or boss's or the taxman's. The reverse of that is if you foul up THAT bad then you DESERVE to pay everyone else. I am talking about when the server is rude in addition to poor service and cold food etc. I am not a completely heartless savage. If the server is nice but the place is busy and understaffed then concessions can be made. Otherwise I won't tip. If you don't like it as a server, get out of that line of work or improve your service delivery or talk to your boss about maybe hiring more help. Survival of the fittest applies and should be encouraged. People who are particularly bad at anything should not be doing that trade.

I hate to say it but some of the things we do in the USA are just plain fucked up. The manner that restaurant staff get paid is one of them and it is very seldom duplicated outside of the States, even in most other English speaking nations. Aussies and Kiwis, well, they have no concept of it. Japanese servers may well throw the tip in your face followed by a good wad of spit and see you to the door. Tipping is even illegal in some places.

Don't take my word for it (http://www.iii.co.uk/articles/articledisplay.jsp?article_id=3208005&section=Planning)

Once or twice in the States I have also cleared out all the dishes and flat ware and left one penny in the center of the table as a tip when the service was particularly bad. I am as a rule... I am not nice to people just for the sake of being nice. I know that is expected but I don't believe in that shit. Its why many aspects of my philosophy towards tipping run counter to what is expected in the US, which is you tip 15% even if the server took a dump in your food and then brought it out and hour later. I also don't tend to run to someone's boss either right off. I am sure those servers were pissed off at me, but I doubt they got fired. People deserve second chances as well as a chance to do some self evaluation.

Tal...was there other children in the Cheesecake Factory or was your daughter the only one?

Some places just don't cater to kids and don't foster a "family friendly" attitude. No excuse to be outright hostile to children but such places tend to passive aggressively let you know that kids are not welcome. From the restaurant's perspective children tend to not eat much food so they don't make much money but can make much mess and noise which can cost immediate expense and also lost customers. I have been out with friends who have kids and had to deal with a venue change because it was obvious having the little ones along was going to be an issue at the first choice.

So we ended up going from a brick oven pizza place at Town Center to Cici's pizza down by Windy Hill. We got our pizza. Heh. That is why I am not a parent yet. I don't like to settle for second best. One day I might but not right now.

I have been out with friends since who have kids but we have always avoided places that don't have highchairs, crayons and coloring books at the ready and in plain sight. Plus they also seem to go to the same places and ask for the same servers.

The Cheesecake Factory is not "that" nice of a restaurant. Yeah tons of kids go there.

Of course my oldest daughter has been to numerous 4-5 star restaurants. She's excellent when we are out at dinner(and she'll eat just about anything). The youngest one, well she's not so much unfortunately.