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Lleauric
03-22-2009, 01:09 AM
nailed it. Crystal fucking clear.

Rover, you are going to want to punch the wall after reading this.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/26793903/the_big_takeover/print

The Big Takeover

The global economic crisis isn't about money - it's about power. How Wall Street insiders are using the bailout to stage a revolution

MATT TAIBBI
Posted Mar 19, 2009 12:49 PM

It's over — we're officially, royally fucked. no empire can survive being rendered a permanent laughingstock, which is what happened as of a few weeks ago, when the buffoons who have been running things in this country finally went one step too far. It happened when Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner was forced to admit that he was once again going to have to stuff billions of taxpayer dollars into a dying insurance giant called AIG, itself a profound symbol of our national decline — a corporation that got rich insuring the concrete and steel of American industry in the country's heyday, only to destroy itself chasing phantom fortunes at the Wall Street card tables, like a dissolute nobleman gambling away the family estate in the waning days of the British Empire.
The latest bailout came as AIG admitted to having just posted the largest quarterly loss in American corporate history — some $61.7 billion. In the final three months of last year, the company lost more than $27 million every hour. That's $465,000 a minute, a yearly income for a median American household every six seconds, roughly $7,750 a second. And all this happened at the end of eight straight years that America devoted to frantically chasing the shadow of a terrorist threat to no avail, eight years spent stopping every citizen at every airport to search every purse, bag, crotch and briefcase for juice boxes and explosive tubes of toothpaste. Yet in the end, our government had no mechanism for searching the balance sheets of companies that held life-or-death power over our society and was unable to spot holes in the national economy the size of Libya (whose entire GDP last year was smaller than AIG's 2008 losses).
So it's time to admit it: We're fools, protagonists in a kind of gruesome comedy about the marriage of greed and stupidity. And the worst part about it is that we're still in denial — we still think this is some kind of unfortunate accident, not something that was created by the group of psychopaths on Wall Street whom we allowed to gang-rape the American Dream. When Geithner announced the new $30 billion bailout, the party line was that poor AIG was just a victim of a lot of shitty luck — bad year for business, you know, what with the financial crisis and all. Edward Liddy, the company's CEO, actually compared it to catching a cold: "The marketplace is a pretty crummy place to be right now," he said. "When the world catches pneumonia, we get it too." In a pathetic attempt at name-dropping, he even whined that AIG was being "consumed by the same issues that are driving house prices down and 401K statements down and Warren Buffet's investment portfolio down."

Liddy made AIG sound like an orphan begging in a soup line, hungry and sick from being left out in someone else's financial weather. He conveniently forgot to mention that AIG had spent more than a decade systematically scheming to evade U.S. and international regulators, or that one of the causes of its "pneumonia" was making colossal, world-sinking $500 billion bets with money it didn't have, in a toxic and completely unregulated derivatives market.


Nor did anyone mention that when AIG finally got up from its seat at the Wall Street casino, broke and busted in the afterdawn light, it owed money all over town — and that a huge chunk of your taxpayer dollars in this particular bailout scam will be going to pay off the other high rollers at its table. Or that this was a casino unique among all casinos, one where middle-class taxpayers cover the bets of billionaires.


People are pissed off about this financial crisis, and about this bailout, but they're not pissed off enough. The reality is that the worldwide economic meltdown and the bailout that followed were together a kind of revolution, a coup d'état. They cemented and formalized a political trend that has been snowballing for decades: the gradual takeover of the government by a small class of connected insiders, who used money to control elections, buy influence and systematically weaken financial regulations.


The crisis was the coup de grâce: Given virtually free rein over the economy, these same insiders first wrecked the financial world, then cunningly granted themselves nearly unlimited emergency powers to clean up their own mess. And so the gambling-addict leaders of companies like AIG end up not penniless and in jail, but with an Alien-style death grip on the Treasury and the Federal Reserve — "our partners in the government," as Liddy put it with a shockingly casual matter-of-factness after the most recent bailout.


The mistake most people make in looking at the financial crisis is thinking of it in terms of money, a habit that might lead you to look at the unfolding mess as a huge bonus-killing downer for the Wall Street class. But if you look at it in purely Machiavellian terms, what you see is a colossal power grab that threatens to turn the federal government into a kind of giant Enron — a huge, impenetrable black box filled with self-dealing insiders whose scheme is the securing of individual profits at the expense of an ocean of unwitting involuntary shareholders, previously known as taxpayers.


I. PATIENT ZERO
The best way to understand the financial crisis is to understand the meltdown at AIG. AIG is what happens when short, bald managers of otherwise boring financial bureaucracies start seeing Brad Pitt in the mirror. This is a company that built a giant fortune across more than a century by betting on safety-conscious policyholders — people who wear seat belts and build houses on high ground — and then blew it all in a year or two by turning their entire balance sheet over to a guy who acted like making huge bets with other people's money would make his dick bigger.


That guy — the Patient Zero of the global economic meltdown — was one Joseph Cassano, the head of a tiny, 400-person unit within the company called AIG Financial Products, or AIGFP. Cassano, a pudgy, balding Brooklyn College grad with beady eyes and way too much forehead, cut his teeth in the Eighties working for Mike Milken, the granddaddy of modern Wall Street debt alchemists. Milken, who pioneered the creative use of junk bonds, relied on messianic genius and a whole array of insider schemes to evade detection while wreaking financial disaster. Cassano, by contrast, was just a greedy little turd with a knack for selective accounting who ran his scam right out in the open, thanks to Washington's deregulation of the Wall Street casino. "It's all about the regulatory environment," says a government source involved with the AIG bailout. "These guys look for holes in the system, for ways they can do trades without government interference. Whatever is unregulated, all the action is going to pile into that."

The mess Cassano created had its roots in an investment boom fueled in part by a relatively new type of financial instrument called a collateralized-debt obligation. A CDO is like a box full of diced-up assets. They can be anything: mortgages, corporate loans, aircraft loans, credit-card loans, even other CDOs. So as X mortgage holder pays his bill, and Y corporate debtor pays his bill, and Z credit-card debtor pays his bill, money flows into the box.


The key idea behind a CDO is that there will always be at least some money in the box, regardless of how dicey the individual assets inside it are. No matter how you look at a single unemployed ex-con trying to pay the note on a six-bedroom house, he looks like a bad investment. But dump his loan in a box with a smorgasbord of auto loans, credit-card debt, corporate bonds and other crap, and you can be reasonably sure that somebody is going to pay up. Say $100 is supposed to come into the box every month. Even in an apocalypse, when $90 in payments might default, you'll still get $10. What the inventors of the CDO did is divide up the box into groups of investors and put that $10 into its own level, or "tranche." They then convinced ratings agencies like Moody's and S&P to give that top tranche the highest AAA rating — meaning it has close to zero credit risk.


Suddenly, thanks to this financial seal of approval, banks had a way to turn their shittiest mortgages and other financial waste into investment-grade paper and sell them to institutional investors like pensions and insurance companies, which were forced by regulators to keep their portfolios as safe as possible. Because CDOs offered higher rates of return than truly safe products like Treasury bills, it was a win-win: Banks made a fortune selling CDOs, and big investors made much more holding them.


The problem was, none of this was based on reality. "The banks knew they were selling crap," says a London-based trader from one of the bailed-out companies. To get AAA ratings, the CDOs relied not on their actual underlying assets but on crazy mathematical formulas that the banks cooked up to make the investments look safer than they really were. "They had some back room somewhere where a bunch of Indian guys who'd been doing nothing but math for God knows how many years would come up with some kind of model saying that this or that combination of debtors would only default once every 10,000 years," says one young trader who sold CDOs for a major investment bank. "It was nuts."


Now that even the crappiest mortgages could be sold to conservative investors, the CDOs spurred a massive explosion of irresponsible and predatory lending. In fact, there was such a crush to underwrite CDOs that it became hard to find enough subprime mortgages — read: enough unemployed meth dealers willing to buy million-dollar homes for no money down — to fill them all. As banks and investors of all kinds took on more and more in CDOs and similar instruments, they needed some way to hedge their massive bets — some kind of insurance policy, in case the housing bubble burst and all that debt went south at the same time. This was particularly true for investment banks, many of which got stuck holding or "warehousing" CDOs when they wrote more than they could sell. And that's were Joe Cassano came in.


Known for his boldness and arrogance, Cassano took over as chief of AIGFP in 2001. He was the favorite of Maurice "Hank" Greenberg, the head of AIG, who admired the younger man's hard-driving ways, even if neither he nor his successors fully understood exactly what it was that Cassano did. According to a source familiar with AIG's internal operations, Cassano basically told senior management, "You know insurance, I know investments, so you do what you do, and I'll do what I do — leave me alone." Given a free hand within the company, Cassano set out from his offices in London to sell a lucrative form of "insurance" to all those investors holding lots of CDOs. His tool of choice was another new financial instrument known as a credit-default swap, or CDS.


The CDS was popularized by J.P. Morgan, in particular by a group of young, creative bankers who would later become known as the "Morgan Mafia," as many of them would go on to assume influential positions in the finance world. In 1994, in between booze and games of tennis at a resort in Boca Raton, Florida, the Morgan gang plotted a way to help boost the bank's returns. One of their goals was to find a way to lend more money, while working around regulations that required them to keep a set amount of cash in reserve to back those loans. What they came up with was an early version of the credit-default swap.


In its simplest form, a CDS is just a bet on an outcome. Say Bank A writes a million-dollar mortgage to the Pope for a town house in the West Village. Bank A wants to hedge its mortgage risk in case the Pope can't make his monthly payments, so it buys CDS protection from Bank B, wherein it agrees to pay Bank B a premium of $1,000 a month for five years. In return, Bank B agrees to pay Bank A the full million-dollar value of the Pope's mortgage if he defaults. In theory, Bank A is covered if the Pope goes on a meth binge and loses his job.


When Morgan presented their plans for credit swaps to regulators in the late Nineties, they argued that if they bought CDS protection for enough of the investments in their portfolio, they had effectively moved the risk off their books. Therefore, they argued, they should be allowed to lend more, without keeping more cash in reserve. A whole host of regulators — from the Federal Reserve to the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency — accepted the argument, and Morgan was allowed to put more money on the street.


What Cassano did was to transform the credit swaps that Morgan popularized into the world's largest bet on the housing boom. In theory, at least, there's nothing wrong with buying a CDS to insure your investments. Investors paid a premium to AIGFP, and in return the company promised to pick up the tab if the mortgage-backed CDOs went bust. But as Cassano went on a selling spree, the deals he made differed from traditional insurance in several significant ways. First, the party selling CDS protection didn't have to post any money upfront. When a $100 corporate bond is sold, for example, someone has to show 100 actual dollars. But when you sell a $100 CDS guarantee, you don't have to show a dime. So Cassano could sell investment banks billions in guarantees without having any single asset to back it up.


Secondly, Cassano was selling so-called "naked" CDS deals. In a "naked" CDS, neither party actually holds the underlying loan. In other words, Bank B not only sells CDS protection to Bank A for its mortgage on the Pope — it turns around and sells protection to Bank C for the very same mortgage. This could go on ad nauseam: You could have Banks D through Z also betting on Bank A's mortgage. Unlike traditional insurance, Cassano was offering investors an opportunity to bet that someone else's house would burn down, or take out a term life policy on the guy with AIDS down the street. It was no different from gambling, the Wall Street version of a bunch of frat brothers betting on Jay Feely to make a field goal. Cassano was taking book for every bank that bet short on the housing market, but he didn't have the cash to pay off if the kick went wide.

In a span of only seven years, Cassano sold some $500 billion worth of CDS protection, with at least $64 billion of that tied to the subprime mortgage market. AIG didn't have even a fraction of that amount of cash on hand to cover its bets, but neither did it expect it would ever need any reserves. So long as defaults on the underlying securities remained a highly unlikely proposition, AIG was essentially collecting huge and steadily climbing premiums by selling insurance for the disaster it thought would never come.
Initially, at least, the revenues were enormous: AIGFP's returns went from $737 million in 1999 to $3.2 billion in 2005. Over the past seven years, the subsidiary's 400 employees were paid a total of $3.5 billion; Cassano himself pocketed at least $280 million in compensation. Everyone made their money — and then it all went to shit.


II. THE REGULATORS
Cassano's outrageous gamble wouldn't have been possible had he not had the good fortune to take over AIGFP just as Sen. Phil Gramm — a grinning, laissez-faire ideologue from Texas — had finished engineering the most dramatic deregulation of the financial industry since Emperor Hien Tsung invented paper money in 806 A.D. For years, Washington had kept a watchful eye on the nation's banks. Ever since the Great Depression, commercial banks — those that kept money on deposit for individuals and businesses — had not been allowed to double as investment banks, which raise money by issuing and selling securities. The Glass-Steagall Act, passed during the Depression, also prevented banks of any kind from getting into the insurance business.


But in the late Nineties, a few years before Cassano took over AIGFP, all that changed. The Democrats, tired of getting slaughtered in the fundraising arena by Republicans, decided to throw off their old reliance on unions and interest groups and become more "business-friendly." Wall Street responded by flooding Washington with money, buying allies in both parties. In the 10-year period beginning in 1998, financial companies spent $1.7 billion on federal campaign contributions and another $3.4 billion on lobbyists. They quickly got what they paid for. In 1999, Gramm co-sponsored a bill that repealed key aspects of the Glass-Steagall Act, smoothing the way for the creation of financial megafirms like Citigroup. The move did away with the built-in protections afforded by smaller banks. In the old days, a local banker knew the people whose loans were on his balance sheet: He wasn't going to give a million-dollar mortgage to a homeless meth addict, since he would have to keep that loan on his books. But a giant merged bank might write that loan and then sell it off to some fool in China, and who cared?


The very next year, Gramm compounded the problem by writing a sweeping new law called the Commodity Futures Modernization Act that made it impossible to regulate credit swaps as either gambling or securities. Commercial banks — which, thanks to Gramm, were now competing directly with investment banks for customers — were driven to buy credit swaps to loosen capital in search of higher yields. "By ruling that credit-default swaps were not gaming and not a security, the way was cleared for the growth of the market," said Eric Dinallo, head of the New York State Insurance Department.


The blanket exemption meant that Joe Cassano could now sell as many CDS contracts as he wanted, building up as huge a position as he wanted, without anyone in government saying a word. "You have to remember, investment banks aren't in the business of making huge directional bets," says the government source involved in the AIG bailout. When investment banks write CDS deals, they hedge them. But insurance companies don't have to hedge. And that's what AIG did. "They just bet massively long on the housing market," says the source. "Billions and billions."


In the biggest joke of all, Cassano's wheeling and dealing was regulated by the Office of Thrift Supervision, an agency that would prove to be defiantly uninterested in keeping watch over his operations. How a behemoth like AIG came to be regulated by the little-known and relatively small OTS is yet another triumph of the deregulatory instinct. Under another law passed in 1999, certain kinds of holding companies could choose the OTS as their regulator, provided they owned one or more thrifts (better known as savings-and-loans). Because the OTS was viewed as more compliant than the Fed or the Securities and Exchange Commission, companies rushed to reclassify themselves as thrifts. In 1999, AIG purchased a thrift in Delaware and managed to get approval for OTS regulation of its entire operation.


Making matters even more hilarious, AIGFP — a London-based subsidiary of an American insurance company — ought to have been regulated by one of Europe's more stringent regulators, like Britain's Financial Services Authority. But the OTS managed to convince the Europeans that it had the muscle to regulate these giant companies. By 2007, the EU had conferred legitimacy to OTS supervision of three mammoth firms — GE, AIG and Ameriprise.


That same year, as the subprime crisis was exploding, the Government Accountability Office criticized the OTS, noting a "disparity between the size of the agency and the diverse firms it oversees." Among other things, the GAO report noted that the entire OTS had only one insurance specialist on staff — and this despite the fact that it was the primary regulator for the world's largest insurer!


"There's this notion that the regulators couldn't do anything to stop AIG," says a government official who was present during the bailout. "That's bullshit. What you have to understand is that these regulators have ultimate power. They can send you a letter and say, 'You don't exist anymore,' and that's basically that. They don't even really need due process. The OTS could have said, 'We're going to pull your charter; we're going to pull your license; we're going to sue you.' And getting sued by your primary regulator is the kiss of death."


When AIG finally blew up, the OTS regulator ostensibly in charge of overseeing the insurance giant — a guy named C.K. Lee — basically admitted that he had blown it. His mistake, Lee said, was that he believed all those credit swaps in Cassano's portfolio were "fairly benign products." Why? Because the company told him so. "The judgment the company was making was that there was no big credit risk," he explained. (Lee now works as Midwest region director of the OTS; the agency declined to make him available for an interview.)


In early March, after the latest bailout of AIG, Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner took what seemed to be a thinly veiled shot at the OTS, calling AIG a "huge, complex global insurance company attached to a very complicated investment bank/hedge fund that was allowed to build up without any adult supervision." But even without that "adult supervision," AIG might have been OK had it not been for a complete lack of internal controls. For six months before its meltdown, according to insiders, the company had been searching for a full-time chief financial officer and a chief risk-assessment officer, but never got around to hiring either. That meant that the 18th-largest company in the world had no one checking to make sure its balance sheet was safe and no one keeping track of how much cash and assets the firm had on hand. The situation was so bad that when outside consultants were called in a few weeks before the bailout, senior executives were unable to answer even the most basic questions about their company — like, for instance, how much exposure the firm had to the residential-mortgage market.


III. THE CRASH
Ironically, when reality finally caught up to Cassano, it wasn't because the housing market crapped but because of AIG itself. Before 2005, the company's debt was rated triple-A, meaning he didn't need to post much cash to sell CDS protection: The solid creditworthiness of AIG's name was guarantee enough. But the company's crummy accounting practices eventually caused its credit rating to be downgraded, triggering clauses in the CDS contracts that forced Cassano to post substantially more collateral to back his deals.

By the fall of 2007, it was evident that AIGFP's portfolio had turned poisonous, but like every good Wall Street huckster, Cassano schemed to keep his insane, Earth-swallowing gamble hidden from public view. That August, balls bulging, he announced to investors on a conference call that "it is hard for us, without being flippant, to even see a scenario within any kind of realm of reason that would see us losing $1 in any of those transactions." As he spoke, his CDS portfolio was racking up $352 million in losses. When the growing credit crunch prompted senior AIG executives to re-examine its liabilities, a company accountant named Joseph St. Denis became "gravely concerned" about the CDS deals and their potential for mass destruction. Cassano responded by personally forcing the poor sap out of the firm, telling him he was "deliberately excluded" from the financial review for fear that he might "pollute the process."


The following February, when AIG posted $11.5 billion in annual losses, it announced the resignation of Cassano as head of AIGFP, saying an auditor had found a "material weakness" in the CDS portfolio. But amazingly, the company not only allowed Cassano to keep $34 million in bonuses, it kept him on as a consultant for $1 million a month. In fact, Cassano remained on the payroll and kept collecting his monthly million through the end of September 2008, even after taxpayers had been forced to hand AIG $85 billion to patch up his fuck-ups. When asked in October why the company still retained Cassano at his $1 million-a-month rate despite his role in the probable downfall of Western civilization, CEO Martin Sullivan told Congress with a straight face that AIG wanted to "retain the 20-year knowledge that Mr. Cassano had." (Cassano, who is apparently hiding out in his lavish town house near Harrods in London, could not be reached for comment.)
What sank AIG in the end was another credit downgrade. Cassano had written so many CDS deals that when the company was facing another downgrade to its credit rating last September, from AA to A, it needed to post billions in collateral — not only more cash than it had on its balance sheet but more cash than it could raise even if it sold off every single one of its liquid assets. Even so, management dithered for days, not believing the company was in serious trouble. AIG was a dried-up prune, sapped of any real value, and its top executives didn't even know it.


On the weekend of September 13th, AIG's senior leaders were summoned to the offices of the New York Federal Reserve. Regulators from Dinallo's insurance office were there, as was Geithner, then chief of the New York Fed. Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson, who spent most of the weekend preoccupied with the collapse of Lehman Brothers, came in and out. Also present, for reasons that would emerge later, was Lloyd Blankfein, CEO of Goldman Sachs. The only relevant government office that wasn't represented was the regulator that should have been there all along: the OTS.


"We sat down with Paulson, Geithner and Dinallo," says a person present at the negotiations. "I didn't see the OTS even once."
On September 14th, according to another person present, Treasury officials presented Blankfein and other bankers in attendance with an absurd proposal: "They basically asked them to spend a day and check to see if they could raise the money privately." The laughably short time span to complete the mammoth task made the answer a foregone conclusion. At the end of the day, the bankers came back and told the government officials, gee, we checked, but we can't raise that much. And the bailout was on.


A short time later, it came out that AIG was planning to pay some $90 million in deferred compensation to former executives, and to accelerate the payout of $277 million in bonuses to others — a move the company insisted was necessary to "retain key employees." When Congress balked, AIG canceled the $90 million in payments.


Then, in January 2009, the company did it again. After all those years letting Cassano run wild, and after already getting caught paying out insane bonuses while on the public till, AIG decided to pay out another $450 million in bonuses. And to whom? To the 400 or so employees in Cassano's old unit, AIGFP, which is due to go out of business shortly! Yes, that's right, an average of $1.1 million in taxpayer-backed money apiece, to the very people who spent the past decade or so punching a hole in the fabric of the universe!


"We, uh, needed to keep these highly expert people in their seats," AIG spokeswoman Christina Pretto says to me in early February.
"But didn't these 'highly expert people' basically destroy your company?" I ask.
Pretto protests, says this isn't fair. The employees at AIGFP have already taken pay cuts, she says. Not retaining them would dilute the value of the company even further, make it harder to wrap up the unit's operations in an orderly fashion.


The bonuses are a nice comic touch highlighting one of the more outrageous tangents of the bailout age, namely the fact that, even with the planet in flames, some members of the Wall Street class can't even get used to the tragedy of having to fly coach. "These people need their trips to Baja, their spa treatments, their hand jobs," says an official involved in the AIG bailout, a serious look on his face, apparently not even half-kidding. "They don't function well without them."


IV. THE POWER GRAB
So that's the first step in wall street's power grab: making up things like credit-default swaps and collateralized-debt obligations, financial products so complex and inscrutable that ordinary American dumb people — to say nothing of federal regulators and even the CEOs of major corporations like AIG — are too intimidated to even try to understand them. That, combined with wise political investments, enabled the nation's top bankers to effectively scrap any meaningful oversight of the financial industry. In 1997 and 1998, the years leading up to the passage of Phil Gramm's fateful act that gutted Glass-Steagall, the banking, brokerage and insurance industries spent $350 million on political contributions and lobbying. Gramm alone — then the chairman of the Senate Banking Committee — collected $2.6 million in only five years. The law passed 90-8 in the Senate, with the support of 38 Democrats, including some names that might surprise you: Joe Biden, John Kerry, Tom Daschle, Dick Durbin, even John Edwards.

The act helped create the too-big-to-fail financial behemoths like Citigroup, AIG and Bank of America — and in turn helped those companies slowly crush their smaller competitors, leaving the major Wall Street firms with even more money and power to lobby for further deregulatory measures. "We're moving to an oligopolistic situation," Kenneth Guenther, a top executive with the Independent Community Bankers of America, lamented after the Gramm measure was passed.

The situation worsened in 2004, in an extraordinary move toward deregulation that never even got to a vote. At the time, the European Union was threatening to more strictly regulate the foreign operations of America's big investment banks if the U.S. didn't strengthen its own oversight. So the top five investment banks got together on April 28th of that year and — with the helpful assistance of then-Goldman Sachs chief and future Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson — made a pitch to George Bush's SEC chief at the time, William Donaldson, himself a former investment banker. The banks generously volunteered to submit to new rules restricting them from engaging in excessively risky activity. In exchange, they asked to be released from any lending restrictions. The discussion about the new rules lasted just 55 minutes, and there was not a single representative of a major media outlet there to record the fateful decision.


Donaldson OK'd the proposal, and the new rules were enough to get the EU to drop its threat to regulate the five firms. The only catch was, neither Donaldson nor his successor, Christopher Cox, actually did any regulating of the banks. They named a commission of seven people to oversee the five companies, whose combined assets came to total more than $4 trillion. But in the last year and a half of Cox's tenure, the group had no director and did not complete a single inspection. Great deal for the banks, which originally complained about being regulated by both Europe and the SEC, and ended up being regulated by no one.


Once the capital requirements were gone, those top five banks went hog-wild, jumping ass-first into the then-raging housing bubble. One of those was Bear Stearns, which used its freedom to drown itself in bad mortgage loans. In the short period between the 2004 change and Bear's collapse, the firm's debt-to-equity ratio soared from 12-1 to an insane 33-1. Another culprit was Goldman Sachs, which also had the good fortune, around then, to see its CEO, a bald-headed Frankensteinian goon named Hank Paulson (who received an estimated $200 million tax deferral by joining the government), ascend to Treasury secretary.


Freed from all capital restraints, sitting pretty with its man running the Treasury, Goldman jumped into the housing craze just like everyone else on Wall Street. Although it famously scored an $11 billion coup in 2007 when one of its trading units smartly shorted the housing market, the move didn't tell the whole story. In truth, Goldman still had a huge exposure come that fateful summer of 2008 — to none other than Joe Cassano.
Goldman Sachs, it turns out, was Cassano's biggest customer, with $20 billion of exposure in Cassano's CDS book. Which might explain why Goldman chief Lloyd Blankfein was in the room with ex-Goldmanite Hank Paulson that weekend of September 13th, when the federal government was supposedly bailing out AIG.


When asked why Blankfein was there, one of the government officials who was in the meeting shrugs. "One might say that it's because Goldman had so much exposure to AIGFP's portfolio," he says. "You'll never prove that, but one might suppose."


Market analyst Eric Salzman is more blunt. "If AIG went down," he says, "there was a good chance Goldman would not be able to collect." The AIG bailout, in effect, was Goldman bailing out Goldman.


Eventually, Paulson went a step further, elevating another ex-Goldmanite named Edward Liddy to run AIG — a company whose bailout money would be coming, in part, from the newly created TARP program, administered by another Goldman banker named Neel Kashkari.


V. REPO MEN
There are plenty of people who have noticed, in recent years, that when they lost their homes to foreclosure or were forced into bankruptcy because of crippling credit-card debt, no one in the government was there to rescue them. But when Goldman Sachs — a company whose average employee still made more than $350,000 last year, even in the midst of a depression — was suddenly faced with the possibility of losing money on the unregulated insurance deals it bought for its insane housing bets, the government was there in an instant to patch the hole. That's the essence of the bailout: rich bankers bailing out rich bankers, using the taxpayers' credit card.


The people who have spent their lives cloistered in this Wall Street community aren't much for sharing information with the great unwashed. Because all of this shit is complicated, because most of us mortals don't know what the hell LIBOR is or how a REIT works or how to use the word "zero coupon bond" in a sentence without sounding stupid — well, then, the people who do speak this idiotic language cannot under any circumstances be bothered to explain it to us and instead spend a lot of time rolling their eyes and asking us to trust them.


That roll of the eyes is a key part of the psychology of Paulsonism. The state is now being asked not just to call off its regulators or give tax breaks or funnel a few contracts to connected companies; it is intervening directly in the economy, for the sole purpose of preserving the influence of the megafirms. In essence, Paulson used the bailout to transform the government into a giant bureaucracy of entitled assholedom, one that would socialize "toxic" risks but keep both the profits and the management of the bailed-out firms in private hands. Moreover, this whole process would be done in secret, away from the prying eyes of NASCAR dads, broke-ass liberals who read translations of French novels, subprime mortgage holders and other such financial losers.


Some aspects of the bailout were secretive to the point of absurdity. In fact, if you look closely at just a few lines in the Federal Reserve's weekly public disclosures, you can literally see the moment where a big chunk of your money disappeared for good. The H4 report (called "Factors Affecting Reserve Balances") summarizes the activities of the Fed each week. You can find it online, and it's pretty much the only thing the Fed ever tells the world about what it does. For the week ending February 18th, the number under the heading "Repurchase Agreements" on the table is zero. It's a significant number.


Why? In the pre-crisis days, the Fed used to manage the money supply by periodically buying and selling securities on the open market through so-called Repurchase Agreements, or Repos. The Fed would typically dump $25 billion or so in cash onto the market every week, buying up Treasury bills, U.S. securities and even mortgage-backed securities from institutions like Goldman Sachs and J.P. Morgan, who would then "repurchase" them in a short period of time, usually one to seven days. This was the Fed's primary mechanism for controlling interest rates: Buying up securities gives banks more money to lend, which makes interest rates go down. Selling the securities back to the banks reduces the money available for lending, which makes interest rates go up.

If you look at the weekly H4 reports going back to the summer of 2007, you start to notice something alarming. At the start of the credit crunch, around August of that year, you see the Fed buying a few more Repos than usual — $33 billion or so. By November, as private-bank reserves were dwindling to alarmingly low levels, the Fed started injecting even more cash than usual into the economy: $48 billion. By late December, the number was up to $58 billion; by the following March, around the time of the Bear Stearns rescue, the Repo number had jumped to $77 billion. In the week of May 1st, 2008, the number was $115 billion — "out of control now," according to one congressional aide. For the rest of 2008, the numbers remained similarly in the stratosphere, the Fed pumping as much as $125 billion of these short-term loans into the economy — until suddenly, at the start of this year, the number drops to nothing. Zero.


The reason the number has dropped to nothing is that the Fed had simply stopped using relatively transparent devices like repurchase agreements to pump its money into the hands of private companies. By early 2009, a whole series of new government operations had been invented to inject cash into the economy, most all of them completely secretive and with names you've never heard of. There is the Term Auction Facility, the Term Securities Lending Facility, the Primary Dealer Credit Facility, the Commercial Paper Funding Facility and a monster called the Asset-Backed Commercial Paper Money Market Mutual Fund Liquidity Facility (boasting the chat-room horror-show acronym ABCPMMMFLF). For good measure, there's also something called a Money Market Investor Funding Facility, plus three facilities called Maiden Lane I, II and III to aid bailout recipients like Bear Stearns and AIG.


While the rest of America, and most of Congress, have been bugging out about the $700 billion bailout program called TARP, all of these newly created organisms in the Federal Reserve zoo have quietly been pumping not billions but trillions of dollars into the hands of private companies (at least $3 trillion so far in loans, with as much as $5.7 trillion more in guarantees of private investments). Although this technically isn't taxpayer money, it still affects taxpayers directly, because the activities of the Fed impact the economy as a whole. And this new, secretive activity by the Fed completely eclipses the TARP program in terms of its influence on the economy.


No one knows who's getting that money or exactly how much of it is disappearing through these new holes in the hull of America's credit rating. Moreover, no one can really be sure if these new institutions are even temporary at all — or whether they are being set up as permanent, state-aided crutches to Wall Street, designed to systematically suck bad investments off the ledgers of irresponsible lenders.


"They're supposed to be temporary," says Paul-Martin Foss, an aide to Rep. Ron Paul. "But we keep getting notices every six months or so that they're being renewed. They just sort of quietly announce it."


None other than disgraced senator Ted Stevens was the poor sap who made the unpleasant discovery that if Congress didn't like the Fed handing trillions of dollars to banks without any oversight, Congress could apparently go fuck itself — or so said the law. When Stevens asked the GAO about what authority Congress has to monitor the Fed, he got back a letter citing an obscure statute that nobody had ever heard of before: the Accounting and Auditing Act of 1950. The relevant section, 31 USC 714(b), dictated that congressional audits of the Federal Reserve may not include "deliberations, decisions and actions on monetary policy matters." The exemption, as Foss notes, "basically includes everything." According to the law, in other words, the Fed simply cannot be audited by Congress. Or by anyone else, for that matter.


VI. WINNERS AND LOSERS
Stevens isn't the only person in Congress to be given the finger by the Fed. In January, when Rep. Alan Grayson of Florida asked Federal Reserve vice chairman Donald Kohn where all the money went — only $1.2 trillion had vanished by then — Kohn gave Grayson a classic eye roll, saying he would be "very hesitant" to name names because it might discourage banks from taking the money.


"Has that ever happened?" Grayson asked. "Have people ever said, 'We will not take your $100 billion because people will find out about it?'"
"Well, we said we would not publish the names of the borrowers, so we have no test of that," Kohn answered, visibly annoyed with Grayson's meddling.


Grayson pressed on, demanding to know on what terms the Fed was lending the money. Presumably it was buying assets and making loans, but no one knew how it was pricing those assets — in other words, no one knew what kind of deal it was striking on behalf of taxpayers. So when Grayson asked if the purchased assets were "marked to market" — a methodology that assigns a concrete value to assets, based on the market rate on the day they are traded — Kohn answered, mysteriously, "The ones that have market values are marked to market." The implication was that the Fed was purchasing derivatives like credit swaps or other instruments that were basically impossible to value objectively — paying real money for God knows what.
"Well, how much of them don't have market values?" asked Grayson. "How much of them are worthless?"
"None are worthless," Kohn snapped.
"Then why don't you mark them to market?" Grayson demanded.
"Well," Kohn sighed, "we are marking the ones to market that have market values."


In essence, the Fed was telling Congress to lay off and let the experts handle things. "It's like buying a car in a used-car lot without opening the hood, and saying, 'I think it's fine,'" says Dan Fuss, an analyst with the investment firm Loomis Sayles. "The salesman says, 'Don't worry about it. Trust me.' It'll probably get us out of the lot, but how much farther? None of us knows."


When one considers the comparatively extensive system of congressional checks and balances that goes into the spending of every dollar in the budget via the normal appropriations process, what's happening in the Fed amounts to something truly revolutionary — a kind of shadow government with a budget many times the size of the normal federal outlay, administered dictatorially by one man, Fed chairman Ben Bernanke. "We spend hours and hours and hours arguing over $10 million amendments on the floor of the Senate, but there has been no discussion about who has been receiving this $3 trillion," says Sen. Bernie Sanders. "It is beyond comprehension."


Count Sanders among those who don't buy the argument that Wall Street firms shouldn't have to face being outed as recipients of public funds, that making this information public might cause investors to panic and dump their holdings in these firms. "I guess if we made that public, they'd go on strike or something," he muses.


And the Fed isn't the only arm of the bailout that has closed ranks. The Treasury, too, has maintained incredible secrecy surrounding its implementation even of the TARP program, which was mandated by Congress. To this date, no one knows exactly what criteria the Treasury Department used to determine which banks received bailout funds and which didn't — particularly the first $350 billion given out under Bush appointee Hank Paulson.


The situation with the first TARP payments grew so absurd that when the Congressional Oversight Panel, charged with monitoring the bailout money, sent a query to Paulson asking how he decided whom to give money to, Treasury responded — and this isn't a joke — by directing the panel to a copy of the TARP application form on its website. Elizabeth Warren, the chair of the Congressional Oversight Panel, was struck nearly speechless by the response.
"Do you believe that?" she says incredulously. "That's not what we had in mind."


Another member of Congress, who asked not to be named, offers his own theory about the TARP process. "I think basically if you knew Hank Paulson, you got the money," he says.


This cozy arrangement created yet another opportunity for big banks to devour market share at the expense of smaller regional lenders. While all the bigwigs at Citi and Goldman and Bank of America who had Paulson on speed-dial got bailed out right away — remember that TARP was originally passed because money had to be lent right now, that day, that minute, to stave off emergency — many small banks are still waiting for help. Five months into the TARP program, some not only haven't received any funds, they haven't even gotten a call back about their applications.


"There's definitely a feeling among community bankers that no one up there cares much if they make it or not," says Tanya Wheeless, president of the Arizona Bankers Association.


Which, of course, is exactly the opposite of what should be happening, since small, regional banks are far less guilty of the kinds of predatory lending that sank the economy. "They're not giving out subprime loans or easy credit," says Wheeless. "At the community level, it's much more bread-and-butter banking."


Nonetheless, the lion's share of the bailout money has gone to the larger, so-called "systemically important" banks. "It's like Treasury is picking winners and losers," says one state banking official who asked not to be identified.


This itself is a hugely important political development. In essence, the bailout accelerated the decline of regional community lenders by boosting the political power of their giant national competitors.


Which, when you think about it, is insane: What had brought us to the brink of collapse in the first place was this relentless instinct for building ever-larger megacompanies, passing deregulatory measures to gradually feed all the little fish in the sea to an ever-shrinking pool of Bigger Fish. To fix this problem, the government should have slowly liquidated these monster, too-big-to-fail firms and broken them down to smaller, more manageable companies. Instead, federal regulators closed ranks and used an almost completely secret bailout process to double down on the same faulty, merger-happy thinking that got us here in the first place, creating a constellation of megafirms under government control that are even bigger, more unwieldy and more crammed to the gills with systemic risk.

In essence, Paulson and his cronies turned the federal government into one gigantic, half-opaque holding company, one whose balance sheet includes the world's most appallingly large and risky hedge fund, a controlling stake in a dying insurance giant, huge investments in a group of teetering megabanks, and shares here and there in various auto-finance companies, student loans, and other failing businesses. Like AIG, this new federal holding company is a firm that has no mechanism for auditing itself and is run by leaders who have very little grasp of the daily operations of its disparate subsidiary operations.


In other words, it's AIG's rip-roaringly shitty business model writ almost inconceivably massive — to echo Geithner, a huge, complex global company attached to a very complicated investment bank/hedge fund that's been allowed to build up without adult supervision. How much of what kinds of crap is actually on our balance sheet, and what did we pay for it? When exactly will the rent come due, when will the money run out? Does anyone know what the hell is going on? And on the linear spectrum of capitalism to socialism, where exactly are we now? Is there a dictionary word that even describes what we are now? It would be funny, if it weren't such a nightmare.


VII. YOU DON'T GET IT
The real question from here is whether the Obama administration is going to move to bring the financial system back to a place where sanity is restored and the general public can have a say in things or whether the new financial bureaucracy will remain obscure, secretive and hopelessly complex. It might not bode well that Geithner, Obama's Treasury secretary, is one of the architects of the Paulson bailouts; as chief of the New York Fed, he helped orchestrate the Goldman-friendly AIG bailout and the secretive Maiden Lane facilities used to funnel funds to the dying company. Neither did it look good when Geithner — himself a protégé of notorious Goldman alum John Thain, the Merrill Lynch chief who paid out billions in bonuses after the state spent billions bailing out his firm — picked a former Goldman lobbyist named Mark Patterson to be his top aide.


In fact, most of Geithner's early moves reek strongly of Paulsonism. He has continually talked about partnering with private investors to create a so-called "bad bank" that would systemically relieve private lenders of bad assets — the kind of massive, opaque, quasi-private bureaucratic nightmare that Paulson specialized in. Geithner even refloated a Paulson proposal to use TALF, one of the Fed's new facilities, to essentially lend cheap money to hedge funds to invest in troubled banks while practically guaranteeing them enormous profits.


God knows exactly what this does for the taxpayer, but hedge-fund managers sure love the idea. "This is exactly what the financial system needs," said Andrew Feldstein, CEO of Blue Mountain Capital and one of the Morgan Mafia. Strangely, there aren't many people who don't run hedge funds who have expressed anything like that kind of enthusiasm for Geithner's ideas.


As complex as all the finances are, the politics aren't hard to follow. By creating an urgent crisis that can only be solved by those fluent in a language too complex for ordinary people to understand, the Wall Street crowd has turned the vast majority of Americans into non-participants in their own political future. There is a reason it used to be a crime in the Confederate states to teach a slave to read: Literacy is power. In the age of the CDS and CDO, most of us are financial illiterates. By making an already too-complex economy even more complex, Wall Street has used the crisis to effect a historic, revolutionary change in our political system — transforming a democracy into a two-tiered state, one with plugged-in financial bureaucrats above and clueless customers below.


The most galling thing about this financial crisis is that so many Wall Street types think they actually deserve not only their huge bonuses and lavish lifestyles but the awesome political power their own mistakes have left them in possession of. When challenged, they talk about how hard they work, the 90-hour weeks, the stress, the failed marriages, the hemorrhoids and gallstones they all get before they hit 40.


"But wait a minute," you say to them. "No one ever asked you to stay up all night eight days a week trying to get filthy rich shorting what's left of the American auto industry or selling $600 billion in toxic, irredeemable mortgages to ex-strippers on work release and Taco Bell clerks. Actually, come to think of it, why are we even giving taxpayer money to you people? Why are we not throwing your ass in jail instead?"


But before you even finish saying that, they're rolling their eyes, because You Don't Get It. These people were never about anything except turning money into money, in order to get more money; valueswise they're on par with crack addicts, or obsessive sexual deviants who burgle homes to steal panties. Yet these are the people in whose hands our entire political future now rests.


Good luck with that, America. And enjoy tax season.

Haloface
03-22-2009, 02:37 AM
Punchy little article. Cheers mate.

Rover
03-22-2009, 02:51 AM
Yep, I get the hard copy...I linked this in an earlier thread but you did good...this deserves it's own thread. Basically reading this Taibbi is right, a coup has or is happening.

Sanchek
03-22-2009, 12:32 PM
Heh, the banker coup was decades ago.

Lleauric
03-28-2009, 10:52 AM
further ownage.

AIG Exec Whines About Public Anger, and Now We're Supposed to Pity Him? Yeah, Right
By Matt Taibbi
Created Mar 27 2009 - 9:55am

"I take this action after 11 years of dedicated, honorable service to AIG. I can no longer effectively perform my duties in this dysfunctional environment, nor am I being paid to do so. Like you, I was asked to work for an annual salary of $1, and I agreed out of a sense of duty to the company and to the public officials who have come to its aid. Having now been let down by both, I can no longer justify spending 10, 12, 14 hours a day away from my family for the benefit of those who have let me down." via Op-Ed Contributor -- "Dear AIG, I Quit!" -- NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/25/opinion/25desantis.html) [1]
Like a lot of people, I read Wednesday's New York Times editorial by former AIG Financial Products employee Jake DeSantis, whose resignation letter basically asks us all to reconsider our anger toward the poor overworked employees of his unit.
DeSantis has a few major points. They include: 1) I had nothing to do with my boss Joe Cassano's toxic credit default swaps portfolio, and only a handful of people in our unit did; 2) I didn't even know anything about them; 3) I could have left AIG for a better job several times last year; 4) but I didn't, staying out of a sense of duty to my poor, beleaguered firm, only to find out in the end that; 5) I would be betrayed by AIG senior management, who promised we would be rewarded for staying, but then went back on their word when they folded in highly cowardly fashion in the face of an angry and stupid populist mob.
I have a few responses to those points. They are 1) Bullshit; 2) bullshit; 3) bullshit, plus of course; 4) bullshit. Lastly, there is 5) Boo-Fucking-Hoo. You dog.
AIGFP only had 377 employees. Those 400-odd folks received almost $3.5 billion in compensation in the last seven years, a very large part of that money coming from the sale of credit default protection. Doing the math, that averages out to over $9 million of compensation per person.
Ask yourself this question: If your company made that much money, and the boss of the unit made almost $280 million in just a few years, exactly how likely is it that you wouldn't know where that money was coming from?
Are we supposed to believe that Jake DeSantis knew nothing about Joe Cassano's CDS deals? If your boss and the top guys in your firm were all making a killing selling anything at all -- whether it was rubber kayaks, generic Levitra or credit default swaps -- you really wouldn't bother to find out what that thing they were selling was? You'd really just mind your own business, sit at your cubicle and put your faith in the guys up top to fill you in if there was something you needed to know?
This would be a believable claim for an employee of some other wing of AIG, a company with well over 100,000 employees. But DeSantis works for tiny, 377-person AIGFP, a unit that had only two offices -- one in London and one in Greenwich, Conn.
And we're talking about financial professionals, the most shameless group of tirelessly envious gossips ever to walk the face of the earth. The likelihood that Cassano would pull in $280 million for himself, and his equally greedy, hopelessly jealous employees wouldn't know not only exactly how he made that money but every last ugly detail about his life -- from what skank he's sleeping with to what side of his trousers he hangs on -- is almost zero.
I know plenty of people who work in this world, and I've met very few who didn't hate with every cell in their bodies anyone in their own companies who made more money than they did or got bigger bonuses at Christmastime. Gossiping about each others' bonuses, and bitching about each others' compensation, is the national pastime for these people.
So forgive me if I don't buy this story that poor Jake and his buddies didn't know about Cassano's CDS business.
Also, there's this: let's just say, Jake, that you're telling the truth, that you don't know anything about this toxic portfolio. If that's the case, then why the fuck does anyone need to retain you at an exorbitant salary to help unwind that very portfolio? If these transactions aren't and never were your expertise, then where the hell is your value here?
When I spoke to Christine Pretto, the AIG spokeswoman, and asked about those bonuses, she said that AIG needed to retain people like you in order to take advantage of your "knowledge of these transactions." So if you don't have knowledge of these transactions, what are you being paid for? Your winning attitude?
Then there's the matter of Jake's other job offers. About that: It was apparent as early as last February that Cassano had basically destroyed not only the unit but perhaps AIG itself. The company announced over $11 billion in losses around that time.
If I'm Jake DeSantis, and I'm really innocent, I'm looking for a job that very instant. And I'm taking the first good job anyone offers me. Because by then I'd have realized that I was working for the latest version of Enron. That the man I've been working for the last six or seven years has turned out to be one of the most irresponsible Wall Street villains of all time, a man who single-handedly destroyed the 18th-largest company in the world. If I'm Jake DeSantis, I'm quitting out of moral disgust, because I don't want to be associated with this kind of behavior.
The only reason I'd stay is if I didn't have a choice. Which I feel sure is what happened here. If Jake DeSantis didn't take advantage of an opportunity to get a better job elsewhere with a company that didn't hide billions in losses and make $500 billion bets with money they didn't have, that's his fucking problem.
The notion that I the taxpayer have to pay this asshole a million-dollar bonus because he turned down a better job at a less-guilty company is repugnant to begin with; the notion that he stayed at AIGFP because he expected me to pay him this bonus makes me hate him even more.
But it's all moot, because I feel quite sure it's a lie. As one trader for another firm told me not long ago when I asked what he thought about the need to pay these "retention bonuses" to these "valued employees" at AIGFP:
"Yeah, right. Who would hire these guys? They'd stay for a dollar if you offered it to them, much less a million."
I mean, half of Wall Street is unemployed right now. There are plenty of unemployed traders out there whose resumes don't include such entries as "Worked for years at small unit of AIG that helped destroy the universe; throughout that time was completely ignorant of burgeoning global disaster unfolding 5 feet from my desk."
The idea that other companies would be so eager to pass over the seas of truly innocent available people in order to scoop up some still-employed veteran of AIGFP -- and that they would be so enthusiastic in their pursuit of said AIGFP employees that AIG would need to pay those AIGFP folks million-plus retention bonuses to get them to stay -- is so ludicrous it almost defies comment.
Show me, anywhere, the Wall Street firm that's willing right now to spend more than a million dollars poaching still-employed midlevel executives like DeSantis, when they can just put an ad in the paper and have 500 recently unemployed CEOs begging for work at almost any salary in five minutes.
So the idea that the rest of Wall Street is breaking down AIGFP's doors to lavish its idiot personnel with million-dollar offers is just utterly preposterous. The fact that DeSantis expects us to believe this is insulting in itself.
Also, remember, DeSantis until this year was probably the recipient of performance bonuses. This year, obviously, there was no performance, so AIG doled out these "retention" bonuses instead. And the value of these retention bonuses is seriously in question if AIG never really needed to pay extra to retain this personnel, which I personally believe they didn't.
I personally believe these "retention" bonuses were a ruse cooked up by management to suck a few more dollars out of the company before it sank to the ocean bottom. So if DeSantis is "owed" these bonuses, it's only in the sense that someone up above agreed to cheat the shareholders by paying these bonuses when they weren't really necessary; they weren't "earned" in any real sense.
But all of this is really secondary to the tone of DeSantis' letter. He acts like he's a victim because he didn't get to keep his after-tax bonus of $742,006.40 in the middle of a global depression. And he really loses his fucking mind when he writes:
"None of us should be cheated of our payments any more than a plumber should be cheated after he has fixed the pipes but a careless electrician causes a fire that burns down the house."
First of all, Jake, you asshole, no plumber in the world gets paid a $740,000 bonus, over and above his salary, just to keep plumbing. Second, try living on a plumber's salary before you even think about comparing yourself to one; you're inviting a pitchfork in the gut by even thinking along those lines. Third, Jake, if you were a plumber, and the electrician burned the house down -- well, guess what? If you and that electrician worked for the same company, you actually wouldn't get paid for that job.
Out in the real world, when your company burns a house down, you're not getting paid by that client. It's only on Wall Street, where the every-man-for-himself ethos is built into an insanely selfish and greed-addled compensation system, that people like you expect to get paid in a bubble -- only there do people expect their performance bonuses no matter how much money the shareholders lose overall, no matter how many people get laid off after the hostile takeover, no matter how ill-considered the mortgages lent out by your division were.
You expect that money because you think it's owed to you. But what money? The money is gone. Your boss, if not you, set it all afire. You want the money, but where exactly do you think it's coming from?
Do you just not understand that that money now would have to come out of someone else's pocket? That it would have to come from middle-class taxpayers, real plumbers, people who didn't make millions over the years in equity and commodity trading?
Here's the real problem with people like Jake DeSantis. Throughout this whole period, they never were able to connect the dots -- to grasp the fact that when they skimmed a million here or a million there off the great rivers of capital that flowed through their offices, that that money came from somewhere, from someone. To them, it wasn't someone else's money, it was just money, and why shouldn't they have it?
It's remarkable that when DeSantis, in his letter, touts the reason he deserves his high compensation, all he can talk about is how much money he made: "The profitability of the businesses with which I was associated clearly supported my compensation."
For a guy like this, his worth as a human being is wrapped up in buying a bag of beans for $10 and selling it for $11. He states this like it's a law of nature: he was a good equities-and-commodities trader, therefore he should make a lot of money.
Only a person with a habitually overinflated sense of self-worth could think he deserves a $700,000 retention bonus, even if it has to be paid by taxpayers, when in reality no one "deserves" that much money. It may be that some people do get paid that much, but most people who make that much money have enough sense to realize their cushy lifestyles are an accident of fate, of birth, of class, not something that is "supported" by some unwritten natural law of compensation.
Hey Jake, it's not like you were curing cancer. You were a fucking commodities trader. Thanks to a completely insane, horribly skewed set of societal values that puts a premium on greed and severely undervalues selflessness, communal spirit and intellectualism -- values that make millionaires out of people like you and leave teachers and nurses, the people who raise your kids and clean your parents' bedpans, comparatively penniless -- you made a lot of money.
Good for you. Consider yourself lucky. But your company went belly-up and broke, almost certainly thanks in part to you, and now you don't get your bonus.
So be a man and deal with it. The rest of us do, when we get bad breaks, and we've had a lot more of them than you. And stop whining. Jesus Christ.

Bylimet Spiritwalker
03-28-2009, 11:09 AM
Some of the numbers thrown about seem a bit misleading, though; i.e. the average employee of Goldman-Sachs earning $350k.

I would be more interested seeing the total number of employees and just how many actually made $350k or more last year. Any company of even half the size of GS is going to have a shitload of support people (mail room, data entry, personnel, custodial, etc) and not all that work will be getting done by contract sources. Six figure salaries are a distant dream to most of those folks, but with the misleading news stories they are just as susceptible to getting dumped on if they should mention in a bar they were an employee of GS.

Just one of the small things in this whole fiasco that gets my goat.

Kanyli
03-28-2009, 11:12 AM
Perfect LLeauric - my feelings too. I'd expound, but I think it's already been said better than I can manage.

Sanchek
03-28-2009, 01:14 PM
Taibbi is losing the thread the longer he rants. The first one had some sloppy fact checking, but also good points. This one is much worse.

He devotes a large chunk of his rant to "proving" DeSantis must have known about the CDSes, but DeSantis never said he didn't. He said that his work at AIGFP had nothing to do with them, which is true.

The part that really bugs me about this flash-mob of emotional populism is this:

not something that is "supported" by some unwritten natural law of compensation.

No one's talking about an unwritten law of compensions. Why would we? DeSantis has a written contract.

Capitulating to an uninformed mob is a dangerous precedent to set. As 80% owner of AIG, Obama and his administration should've had the stones to stand up to that.

We now know that people as high as Geithner and Emanuel knew about the compensation plan all along. They understood that the bonuses were worthwhile investments in mitigating FP's losses as those people (such as DeSantis) worked to liquidate its good assets. Yet, they all tried to act surprised and outraged, lacking the backbone to stand up to this opinion mob and simply explain the situation.

If we break AIGFP employees' contracts and force them to have worked for a year for $1, what do we have? All these people up in arms are no better off than before, and will still be hurting and angry.

So, who's the next target? Many of us here work hard at jobs that are difficult to understand. Are we all just one uninformed, irresponsible CNN headline away from having President Obama publicly castigate us and then interfere with our compensation?

Lleauric
03-28-2009, 02:41 PM
So, who's the next target? Many of us here work hard at jobs that are difficult to understand. Are we all just one uninformed, irresponsible CNN headline away from having President Obama publicly castigate us and then interfere with our compensation?


Do your best to avoid destroying the economy and I think you can avoid this.

Sanchek
03-28-2009, 02:48 PM
Tell that to DeSantis, and all the other people at FP who were working on things like commodities trading and aircraft leases.

allamar
03-28-2009, 03:38 PM
I say screw em, they obviously don't deserve a damn bonus and i don't care what contracts they had prior, it shouldn't be paid with taxpayer money. Let all these company's die off and be done with it.
I'm sure there's many smaller company's out there or new ones that could be created, that would be happy to take there places and do a much better job at it.

One things for sure they need to be tightly regulated from now on, no more of that Deregulation nonsense. No more of the foxes watching the hen house BS mentality.
Theres not many humans, if any, on this planet who could be trusted with that amount of unregulated money and power and not be corrupted by greed.

Lleauric
03-28-2009, 03:42 PM
I know a guy who worked for a Re Fi company.

Somebody took out an ad that listed the wrong fees for a service in the newspaper. The company had to honor those fees, took a huge loss, shed half its workforce and my friend lost his job.

Shockingly, he didn't receive a bonus that year.

I still am at a loss at how you justify taxpaper bailout money, that was expected to go to paying claims, to be used for massive bonus's.

Somewhere along the line you seem to have gotten the idea that people give a flying fuck about how AIG or anyone else pays their employees.
Nobody does.

But what I want to know is why should I pay DeSantis' bonus. What the fuck did he do that warrants that the people of the United States should lavish upon him phat lewts?

He worked for AIGFP. They fucked up. Sorry. Life isn't fair.

When the fuck did the high risk world of investment banking turn into Little League for 8 year olds, where everyone gets a trophy, even if they play for a losing team.

Sanchek
03-28-2009, 03:44 PM
I say screw em, they obviously don't deserve a damn bonus and i don't care what contracts they had prior

"Obviously" because why? Because you've been fooled into thinking they were working on the CDS products, therefore shouldn't be paid for their work on things like aircraft leases and commodities trading?

You do realize those "bonuses" were their entire salaries for a year, right?

Sanchek
03-28-2009, 04:11 PM
I know a guy who worked for a Re Fi company.

Somebody took out an ad that listed the wrong fees for a service in the newspaper. The company had to honor those fees, took a huge loss, shed half its workforce and my friend lost his job.

Shockingly, he didn't receive a bonus that year.

I still am at a loss at how you justify taxpaper bailout money, that was expected to go to paying claims, to be used for massive bonus's.

Somewhere along the line you seem to have gotten the idea that people give a flying fuck about how AIG or anyone else pays their employees.
Nobody does.

But what I want to know is why should I pay DeSantis' bonus. What the fuck did he do that warrants that the people of the United States should lavish upon him phat lewts?

He worked for AIGFP. They fucked up. Sorry. Life isn't fair.

When the fuck did the high risk world of investment banking turn into Little League for 8 year olds, where everyone gets a trophy, even if they play for a losing team.

It's disingenuous (at best) to use bonus in that context. Seeing as how the "bonus" is their sole pay for an entire year, it's no more a bonus than your paycheck is a bonus.

You seem willing to cut off AIG's nose to spite the country's face. How does anyone benefit from screwing the DeSantises of AIGFP over? Will this mob you've become caught up in be any better off if we throw them a token sacrifice? Who cares if their guilty of anything, as long as they're white collar!

If you actually care about how Treasury's money is being handled, sending a witch hunt after the people working to liquidate FP's solvent assets is the height of hypocrisy. You should be chasing after Joseph Cassano if you want justice, not the janitors left to clean up after him.

The point you evaded still remains though. Desantis did not "destroy the economy". What makes you believe that the mob of public opinion will be appeased by one token sacrifice? It's a slippery slope you're advocating.

Rover
03-28-2009, 04:13 PM
The company is a failed company, kept alive but for taxpayer money. There is no money to pay bonuses that is the bottom line. If the argument is that this is a rogue unit that caused this company all the pain then so what? No one is less responsible for not seeing it. Ironic the guy who has "0" understanding of most things human thinks that a group of experts in their field that, well proved to be not so expert deserve a bonus from a company that can't even pay a claim on the policies it wrote.

You have been so certain with everything AIG yet you have not been remotely close to being right about one thing with it. This company is a beacon of corporate irresponsibility...get used to it.

Sanchek
03-28-2009, 04:19 PM
The company is a failed company, kept alive but for taxpayer money. There is no money to pay bonuses that is the bottom line. If the argument is that this is a rogue unit that caused this company all the pain then so what? No one is less responsible for not seeing it. Ironic the guy who has "0" understanding of most things human thinks that a group of experts in their field that, well proved to be not so expert deserve a bonus from a company that can't even pay a claim on the policies it wrote.

You have been so certain with everything AIG yet you have not been remotely close to being right about one thing with it. This company is a beacon of corporate irresponsibility...get used to it.

If the people remaining were there to sell insurance on CDO instruments, you would be correct about that. However, they aren't, and you aren't.

And again, that use of "bonus" is absolutely dishonest. It's their salary for a year, as a lump sum to give incentive to performance.

Lleauric
03-28-2009, 05:06 PM
Disingenuous?

How about proclaiming "Iz is gonna works for 1 dolla/year until this is over!!!! Aren't I great? (Please ignore the 3 Million Dollar "bonus" I gave myself"). To me, that's the apex of being disingenuous.

AIG was trying to have it both ways, because we mere mortals are too stupid to figure it out.

THEY set up this system. Not us. They called it bonus so they could try to get brownie points for not taking a salary.

How am I screwing over DeSantis? He was a top executive at AIG and said NOTHING as the risk controls at his company faded into nothingness, not me.

So multi millionaire has to forgoe his 750,000.00 paycheck for a year. Boo fucking hoo. He should have played it honest from the beginning.

Rover
03-28-2009, 05:13 PM
The whole country except the guys getting the bonuses and Sanchek are wrong...hundreds of millions misinformed...makes sense.

Sanchek
03-28-2009, 05:23 PM
Disingenuous?

How about proclaiming "Iz is gonna works for 1 dolla/year until this is over!!!! Aren't I great? (Please ignore the 3 Million Dollar "bonus" I gave myself"). To me, that's the apex of being disingenuous.

AIG was trying to have it both ways, because we mere mortals are too stupid to figure it out.

THEY set up this system. Not us. They called it bonus so they could try to get brownie points for not taking a salary.

How am I screwing over DeSantis? He was a top executive at AIG and said NOTHING as the risk controls at his company faded into nothingness, not me.

So multi millionaire has to forgoe his 750,000.00 paycheck for a year. Boo fucking hoo. He should have played it honest from the beginning.

Honest? What did he do that was dishonest?

Explain to us how a commodities trader is responsible for CDS risk controls.

What's dishonest is saying things like:

Do your best to avoid destroying the economy and I think you can avoid this.

And implying that a commodities trader (while no saint) is somehow responsible for the CDS instruments not under his control.

You're falling into this same trap that Rover has, where you lose all sense of logic and reason just because the guy was a highly paid white collar worker. Just because he worked in finance, clearly he must be responsible for the whole mess!

Next, you should crucify the teller at your local Citi branch, and make her give back all of her pay for the last year. Damn that bitch for not having put a stop to this before it was too late!

Sanchek
03-28-2009, 05:25 PM
The whole country except the guys getting the bonuses and Sanchek are wrong...hundreds of millions misinformed...makes sense.

If you look beyond those pandering to the ignorant, it's easy to find support for people like DeSantis. Open your eyes beyond this myopic hatred you have for anyone that wears a tie to work.

Rover
03-28-2009, 05:30 PM
Honest? What did he do that was dishonest?

Explain to us how a commodities trader is responsible for CDS risk controls.

What's dishonest is saying things like:



And implying that a commodities trader (while no saint) is somehow responsible for the CDS instruments not under his control.

You're falling into this same trap that Rover has, where you lose all sense of logic and reason just because the guy was a highly paid white collar worker. Just because he worked in finance, clearly he must be responsible for the whole mess!

Next, you should crucify the teller at your local Citi branch, and make her give back all of her pay for the last year. Damn that bitch for not having put a stop to this before it was too late!


I am a highly paid white collar worker, I get paid when my company makes money from building things that make other companies money. I have people in my family very close to me who work in finance, they seem to have lived through the past 20 years without doing anything criminal or greedy in order to earn their pay. In fact my sister left Merrill Lynch a few years ago because she didn't agree with and could not do what they wanted because she knew it was way way wrong and destined for collapse.

Don't think that what I think about this has anything to do with white collar vs blue collar...I'm just not a greedy pile of shit who looks down on people based on their jobs, I'm smart enough to know that without a motivated and happy workforce a company is nothing.

Sanchek
03-28-2009, 05:47 PM
Non sequitur.

If your sister was into something bad enough that she felt she had to leave Merrill, she probably contributed far more to the collapse than a commodities trader could have. You should demand that she give back her last year's pay!

Show us where DeSantis is responsible for the CDSes. Show us where he did anything "criminal" by trading some commodities.

Lleauric
03-28-2009, 07:02 PM
You still haven't explained why taxpayer money should go to this guy or anyone from AIG or any of them.

Taibbi makes an excellent point in his writing. If this guy is so valuable to AIG because he has such knowledge of CDS and what the right hand was doing, that this bonus was critical because he is uniquely qualified to unwind the mess..... why didnt he see what was going on? Why is this all a big shock (SHOCK) to him?

I absolutely refuse to believe that as a top executive in a office that has 350 people that he had no idea what a significant number of people were doing to make billions in profit in a field that he is a supposed expert in.

You can buy the "im so innocent" bullshit if you want, I aint buying it.

Malse
03-28-2009, 07:45 PM
No one's talking about an unwritten law of compensions. Why would we? DeSantis has a written contract.

He had a written contract with an entity completely incapable of fulfilling it. If you and I sign a contract that you get a million dollars, if I can't pay, the government is not liable for said contract when I go on welfare.

I like that world view though, I'm going so sign some contracts that 2x2=5 and gravity only works on Thursdays.

Rover
03-28-2009, 08:29 PM
Non sequitur.

If your sister was into something bad enough that she felt she had to leave Merrill, she probably contributed far more to the collapse than a commodities trader could have. You should demand that she give back her last year's pay!

Show us where DeSantis is responsible for the CDSes. Show us where he did anything "criminal" by trading some commodities.


LOL...sometimes you post things that make you look like an idiot on the level of Buyza.

allamar
03-29-2009, 12:03 AM
The whole point of it is, No one from these companys should be geting bonuses paid with TAX PAYER MONEY. No ifs ans buts about it.
Oh cry me a river, the poor babys are losing there hundreds of thousands of dollars in bonuses, most workers sure dont make that kind of money in a year or even a few years.
So forgive me from not shedding a tear.

Rover
03-29-2009, 12:16 AM
The thing is, if you truly believe in capitalism these bonuses would be so far out of the question based on how they are being paid and why they are being paid.

To take a company that is in an epic fail and say..."well there were some people who didn't do what caused them to fail" and separate the individuals from the overall company is just crazy. If they did their jobs and can't get paid because of others who pulled bullshit...then sue the people who fucked things up if you want your money.

Sanchek
03-29-2009, 01:30 AM
You still haven't explained why taxpayer money should go to this guy or anyone from AIG or any of them.

Taibbi makes an excellent point in his writing. If this guy is so valuable to AIG because he has such knowledge of CDS and what the right hand was doing, that this bonus was critical because he is uniquely qualified to unwind the mess..... why didnt he see what was going on? Why is this all a big shock (SHOCK) to him?

I absolutely refuse to believe that as a top executive in a office that has 350 people that he had no idea what a significant number of people were doing to make billions in profit in a field that he is a supposed expert in.

You can buy the "im so innocent" bullshit if you want, I aint buying it.

Huh? You're much smarter than to buy into this kind of bad logic.

DeSantis was a commodities trader. Why is that so difficult to grasp? Why is everyone so desperate to make him into something he isn't, just to find a target to vilify?

Where did he ever say he had knowledge of CDSes, or that's what makes him valuable? Anyone left with knowledge of those FP CDSes would be useless, since there's no way to liquidate those CDSes at this point.

In a company with even 40 people, much less 400, not everyone has their fingers in every pie. A commodities trader would have no more business influencing CDS policy than a history teacher would have influencing calculus curriculum. If the calc students fail, you don't blame the history department.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

Sanchek
03-29-2009, 01:39 AM
He had a written contract with an entity completely incapable of fulfilling it. If you and I sign a contract that you get a million dollars, if I can't pay, the government is not liable for said contract when I go on welfare.

I like that world view though, I'm going so sign some contracts that 2x2=5 and gravity only works on Thursdays.

If AIG had gone under, you'd be right. They didn't though.

In reality the "bonuses" were comparable to the fees that would've been paid to a third party if they'd let the company fold and go into receivership. Instead, they paid the fees to those within the company who had knowledge of the solvent assets, to best liquidate them. That's fairly standard in bankruptcies.

Malse
03-29-2009, 02:13 AM
AIG did go under, and would have ceased to exist in a free market. The only reason they still exist is due to a government bailout. It is possible, though fairly unlikely, that the receivership stewards would have gotten as much money (amazingly for doing their jobs well), but it's also totally irrelevant.

At the point AIG was effectively nationalized, they start answering to the public. From evidence, we don't want them to get paid millions of dollars for giving us the mess.

Rover
03-29-2009, 02:26 AM
If AIG had gone under, you'd be right. They didn't though.

You obviously suffer from some form of traumatic dementia. Did you practice with that 12ga and get kicked in the head by it?

Sanchek
03-29-2009, 12:35 PM
AIG did go under, and would have ceased to exist in a free market. The only reason they still exist is due to a government bailout. It is possible, though fairly unlikely, that the receivership stewards would have gotten as much money (amazingly for doing their jobs well), but it's also totally irrelevant.

At the point AIG was effectively nationalized, they start answering to the public. From evidence, we don't want them to get paid millions of dollars for giving us the mess.

That's not true, even in the broadest sense. AIG was given short-term loans (two years) for an 80% equity position. The government does not operate AIG, nor does it have any authority to dictate who gets paid what.

This is not Russia.

Sanchek
03-29-2009, 12:46 PM
The whole country except the guys getting the bonuses and Sanchek are wrong...hundreds of millions misinformed...makes sense.

You obviously suffer from some form of traumatic dementia. Did you practice with that 12ga and get kicked in the head by it?

LOL...sometimes you post things that make you look like an idiot on the level of Buyza.

Why are you wasting our time and attention with this kind of garbage? As "passionate" as you are about the topic, it's sort of sad if this is all you've got.

You're currently the Elren of this thread.

Lleauric
03-29-2009, 03:22 PM
AIG also took 30 billion in bailout money.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/02/business/02aigweb.html

The intervention would be the fourth time that the United States has had to step in to help A.I.G., the giant insurer, avert bankruptcy. The government already owns nearly 80 percent of the insurer’s holding company as a result of the earlier interventions, which included a $60 billion loan, a $40 billion purchase of preferred shares and $50 billion to soak up the company’s toxic assets...

...The new cash commitment reached on Sunday represented the fourth time since September that the federal government has taken steps to keep A.I.G. from collapsing. The previous rescues were intended to stabilize A.I.G. and buy it time to restructure. But the rescues were insufficient, in part because A.I.G. has either invested in or insured so many assets that keep losing value as the economy sours.


AIG would not exist if it wasn't for the Federal Government.

Rover
03-29-2009, 03:30 PM
Why are you wasting our time and attention with this kind of garbage? As "passionate" as you are about the topic, it's sort of sad if this is all you've got.

You're currently the Elren of this thread.


You are so grossly misinformed it is amazing.

Sanchek
03-29-2009, 05:24 PM
You are so grossly misinformed it is amazing.

Is this really all you can muster anymore?

Rover
03-29-2009, 05:40 PM
Yes, because it is getting old with you...basically an exeptionally boring endeavor.

allamar
03-29-2009, 05:42 PM
So lets Take back all the tax payer money that AIG and the other companys, were given by the government (from both Bush and Obama admins), over the last several months. Then we shall really see if they go belly up or not.
Id put my bets on it doing a nose dive into oblivion, the moment the moneys returned. Since they seem to think they cant survive without it.

Sanchek
03-29-2009, 06:06 PM
Yes, because it is getting old with you...basically an exeptionally boring endeavor.

Yet, here you are. All that's missing is the classic "I'm not going to read this thread anymore", followed by a dozen more posts.

Sanchek
03-29-2009, 06:13 PM
So lets Take back all the tax payer money that AIG and the other companys, were given by the government (from both Bush and Obama admins), over the last several months. Then we shall really see if they go belly up or not.
Id put my bets on it doing a nose dive into oblivion, the moment the moneys returned. Since they seem to think they cant survive without it.

They'd definitely all fail without it. In fact, just letting AIGFP fail last year would likely have caused a several large banks to fail.

The reason we're propping them (both AIG and the banks) up is because it's worth it. In all likelihood, the catastrophic fallout from such a chain-reaction of failures would be difficult or impossible for the world's economy to recover from.

At least in the case of AIG, the silver lining is that after they've sold off their solvent assets to repay these loans, we'll end up with a much smaller company in the end. Moving away from all these companies "too big to fail" is something that needs to happen.

Rover
03-29-2009, 09:09 PM
Yet, here you are. All that's missing is the classic "I'm not going to read this thread anymore", followed by a dozen more posts.

No, but your ability to have a "stupid attack" comes shining through. What do you want me to post? AIG sucks? They are con artists? so you can post 'No they arent? What does it solve, wheres the discussion that one can actually learn something from? The thread has become an I posted last and you didn't reply so I must be right thread...it's completely degenerated into anything other than people on opposite sides of an issue that is at the core of our problems in both government and big business in this country, it all comes down to greed and short term profits.

You think AIG people deserve an exceptional amount of compensation and I think if your company has to go and borrow....oh...a few hundred billion dollars just to keep the lights on, they probably can't afford to pay that compensation.

Sanchek
03-29-2009, 09:33 PM
You think AIG people deserve an exceptional amount of compensation and I think if your company has to go and borrow....oh...a few hundred billion dollars just to keep the lights on, they probably can't afford to pay that compensation.

Go back and look at everything I've posted. I never said DeSantis wasn't overpaid. Neither of us know whether he was or not, and there's no point speculating.

Spoiler: You, I, and a majority of Americans are very much overpaid.

You should be very careful about wishing for the government to start chasing down that rabbit hole, breaking contracts and capitulating to mobs.

Lleauric
03-29-2009, 09:55 PM
Just as an FYI as to my point of view.

I don't want government to break contracts it doesnt like ex post facto.

Nor do I want some targeted tax on certain individuals.

But I don't feel one hairs worth of pity for any of these guys. Fuck them. DeSantis didn't just quit like a normal person. He decided to have a fucking pity party for himself. I guess we are all supposed to feel awful for him.

At the end of the day, all things worked out as best they could. No contracts were broken and no unconstitutional laws were passed, but we still got back about 80%+ of the money. It was some hardball, but it worked.

And at the end of the day, fuck DeSantis. Jim Kelly had a great Superbowl XXV and he had nothing to do with Norwood going wide right, but he still lost.

Malse
03-29-2009, 09:56 PM
The only problem I have with government intervention in the untenable and indefensible pay structure for companies that, by definition, produce absolutely nothing but debt is that they're doing it punitively. Reactionary laws are rarely measured for their long term effect ... although one could argue with some ease that particular tack hasn't been taken with much of any of our legislation the last few decades.

Sanchek
03-29-2009, 11:41 PM
At the end of the day, all things worked out as best they could. No contracts were broken and no unconstitutional laws were passed, but we still got back about 80%+ of the money. It was some hardball, but it worked.

Best for who?

Obama using the Presidency into a bully pulpit isn't best for anyone. Terrible, terrible precedent.

LummusL
03-30-2009, 12:41 AM
I'm blue collar. I don't make shit for money. My rank in society is pretty far down there. Alot of you wouldn't give me the time of day.

You know what that means? Its means I don't have to give a shit about facts and figures and arguing symantics nor do I have to have ANY sympathy for these privileged pieces of shit that suckle the tit of our country dry. I have to rely on the intelligence and influence of the rest of you to keep my stupid ass from being buried. Good thing this case is pretty much open and shut, so perhaps this one I can handle on my own.

If you do bad business. If your company is run by greedy fools. If your corporate culture has no grasp of your market or even reality than it deserves to fail. Period. Its good to see the government playing a bit of hardball. I only wish they had told more of these companies to burn in hell. If Obama wants to bully these assholes, well I say let him.

Personally I hope this re-invents Corporate America and that it sends a message that irresposible greed will not be tolerated. You want to make money in the economy? Fine. Produce something benificial to others. If not, then please....do a swan dive out your 50th story window. Fucking oxygen thieves.

Sanchek
03-30-2009, 01:06 AM
Substitute those failed banks for our failed wars in the Middle East. How's that glass house you're throwing rocks from?

Rover
03-30-2009, 01:30 AM
Substitute those failed banks for our failed wars in the Middle East. How's that glass house you're throwing rocks from?


What the fuck kind of comment is that?

Sanchek
03-30-2009, 02:01 AM
Lummus and DeSantis have more in common than he realizes.

Seems pretty clear for me. Need a picture?

Rover
03-30-2009, 02:18 AM
Lummus and DeSantis have more in common than he realizes.

Seems pretty clear for me. Need a picture?

Lots of things seem clear to you that don't seem clear to anyone else.

LummusL
03-30-2009, 02:44 AM
Lummus and DeSantis have more in common than he realizes.

Seems pretty clear for me. Need a picture?


Yup that makes as much sense as blaming the guy in the mailroom or the janitor for the faults of the executives. Better yet lets bring the guy up at the drive through at McDonalds on charges for all the heart attacks and obesity their food causes. How does that grab yah? I am a petty officer first class. An E-6 Enlisted. I make like 30 grand a year plus some benifits such as having medical insurance and a roof over my head. Sometimes that roof is a GP tent or a CONEX box. That certainly puts me at DeSantis's level, right? I have very limited decision making authority. There arn't that many people I don't have to salute. If I have a shop to run or a squad or a platoon, my only job is to make sure the work gets done and I did my best to make sure everyone is in one piece at the end of the day. Not to pass judgement on things way above my paygrade. Havn't we had this discussion before? Not like it matters. Rover was a Zero and you still fuck with him too.

If you have issues with the wars, talk to G.W.Bush, Cheney or the rest of the goons from that administration that were involved in approving those conflicts and save your misdirected attacks against me for them. Last time I checked, I have to follow orders and those aformentioned parties got voted out of power. Same with any other service member. You don't get to pick and choose based on public perception polls. For now that is my job, and I kind of like being employed. Does that compute, picture or no?

...some people's kids, I tell yah.

Oh, and if you really need a picture, how about this one?

http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/ISH/ISH123/42-15349237.jpg

Sanchek
03-30-2009, 07:26 AM
Exactly!

Blaming DeSantis (a commodities trader) for sales of credit default swaps (a derivative) makes as much sense as blaming you for the Iraq war. Neither of you are responsible for those debacles that your larger organizations are mired in.

Blaming either of you would be stupid.

Rover
03-30-2009, 08:56 AM
He was a bit more than a commodities trader, he was the VP of the division that caused the mess at AIG.

In the realm of all things corporate and military, Lummus can't just quit and walk away, that is called desertion and in time of war punishable by death. Desantis however can leave anytime he wants, and it appears he did just that, without any consequence and in his position usually a ....Bonus or some type of severance most likely in the millions of dollars. Lummus, he'll get an Honorable Discharge and if he stays 20 years at his current rate somewhere around 15k a year in retirement.

Sanchek
03-30-2009, 09:11 AM
the VP of the division that caused the mess at AIG.

DeSantis wasn't the VP of AIGFP. There were (are) several Executive Vice Presidents (which DeSantis was one of) and an assortment of Vice Presidents.

Everyone's a Vice President in finance. I'm surprised bank tellers aren't Vice Presidents of Cash yet.

Lleauric
03-30-2009, 03:56 PM
In AIGFP there were about 350 people working.

He was one of a dozen VPs.

At the very least he should have seen the disintegration of Risk Managment controls.

No, he isn't to blame. But he isnt some hero either. Nor does he in any way deserve a bonus. He failed to protect his people.

Sanchek
03-30-2009, 05:59 PM
Who said he's a hero? Where in his contract does it specify that his entire paycheck is contingent on heroism? Where in his job definition does he have oversight over his peers or their hierarchies?

If the kids at your school start flunking math, do we blame your history department? Would you personally go bench the calculus teacher, even though it's not your place? I'm guessing not.

In the face of our students doing poorly at math and science, should we rescind your pay just for being part of the organization? Of course not.

Rover
03-30-2009, 06:48 PM
Jake DeSantis, an executive VP in AIG's financial products unit

An executive VP is someone who is in a decision making position responsible for the day to day operations of the unit. So much for personal responsibility.

Many of the employees have, in the past six months, turned down job offers from more stable employers, based on A.I.G.’s assurances that the contracts would be honored.

When AIG became creditors in order to survive they placed themselves at the mercy of the majority stockholders.

The mistake was not letting them be free market capitalists like they scream they are. Then we could see who got paid what and no one would really give a shit because it is their money.


Who said he's a hero?

He did..he's trying to come off as some kind of hero for staying.

Lleauric
03-30-2009, 06:59 PM
Who said he's a hero? Where in his contract does it specify that his entire paycheck is contingent on heroism? Where in his job definition does he have oversight over his peers or their hierarchies?

If the kids at your school start flunking math, do we blame your history department? Would you personally go bench the calculus teacher, even though it's not your place? I'm guessing not.

In the face of our students doing poorly at math and science, should we rescind your pay just for being part of the organization? Of course not.

Under NCLB it doesn't matter. If one sub group fails to meet YAP in one area, then the entire school is considered a failed school.

Sorry about that metaphor. It blewed up.

And yea.. DeSantis seems to think he is some hero/martyr.

But lets take that metaphor to its appropriate ends. Lets say the math teacher next door is getting stellar scores on the tests. I hear from students that he or she is rigging the exams and helping students with the answers. I do nothing, it goes on for a while and becomes so widespread that it corrupts the integrity of any data from the school. The state finds out and my school is then listed as a failed school. Do I not bear responsibility?

Sanchek
03-30-2009, 07:03 PM
An executive VP is someone who is in a decision making position responsible for the day to day operations of the unit. So much for personal responsibility.

Yes, he was responsible for the decisions in his "unit", as you put it. The CDS "unit" was not under him, nor could he have made decisions for that group any more than L2 gets to set the Calculus curriculum at his school.

Someone from the military, of all people, must understand how this sort of hierarchy works. You just finished trying to lecture me about it a few posts back, and now you've got female selective memory?

I have a hard time believing that you're not just trolling at this point, so desperate to keep the flag flying:

http://images.nymag.com/images/2/daily/2009/03/20090327_richhunt_146x97.jpg

When AIG became creditors in order to survive they placed themselves at the mercy of the majority stockholders.

The government owns 80% of AIG, but it's an equity stake, not a controlling one. Check your facts.

Sanchek
03-30-2009, 07:05 PM
Under NCLB it doesn't matter. If one sub group fails to meet YAP in one area, then the entire school is considered a failed school.

So, you support Obama NCLB'ing the rest of our country? Fail.

Lleauric
03-30-2009, 07:13 PM
If I support it or not, its the reality MOST Americans deal with.

And dont you think that calling 350 investment bankers "the rest of our country" is a bit of hyperbole?

Sanchek
03-30-2009, 07:28 PM
And dont you think that calling 350 investment bankers "the rest of our country" is a bit of hyperbole?

I don't think it's hyperbole at all. Like I said, it's a dangerous precedent.

You whip up that mob of populism to screw over a few bankers today and it's easy to justify. Investment bankers make so much more than most of us, it's difficult for the median income earner to have any sympathy even for the honest ones.

But, where does it end? Who gets to be the target of misdirection tomorrow? Obama bullying these guys as scapegoats for this is no different than Bush bullying brown people after 9/11. Both are unfair, irrelevant, and unhelpful.

The worst part is that this populist furor over a few million in compensation is a gigantic smokescreen. Why do we even have a thread about this less than a hundredth of the bailout? Why isn't there a thread about the ties between the AIG bailouts, ex-JP Morgan employees all throughout both Bush and Obama administrations, and JP getting first dibs at tens of billions in CDS payouts after the bailout? Where are the sensationalist CNN headlines about that?

Lleauric
03-30-2009, 08:15 PM
Obama didnt whip up the populism. Im pretty sure he would have been quite happy if this never came out, the bankers got their lewts and the world moved on.

LummusL
03-30-2009, 09:05 PM
Sanchek, the animosity has always been there. Long before Obama took office. You seem to have forgotten about the huge income divide in the country and how the majority of the US busts their ass just so a few can sit back and rake in the fruits of all that hard work. Yes, plenty do get rich by working that much harder as well as smarter than the average bear, but when the truth comes to light that it was just a greed driven flimflam than if the government wants to be the one passing out the torches and pitchforks, then they actually gain some credibility in my book. Yes, it would be best for the office of the President or any other governing body to be impartial, but sometimes the blame has to be laid where its due. These "good people" have been acting in bad taste and in even poorer faith. Perhaps they are at the recieving end of a "populist witchhunt" but there have not even been charges brought up on anyone inspite of causing the kind of damage to the economy best reserved for wars and natural disasters. Mostly they have been publicly asked to be responsible with the taxpayer's money. Money where the public was not consulted with on how it should be spent, thus its already a sensative topic. Rewarding incompetence when your organization is in receivership as the taxpayer being the primary creditor is a good way to make the government look bad. So its either ride a populist movement against shady business people already proven guilty or come out looking like the government aided and abetted, thus crushing the faith of the general population in not only big business but the government as well.

Sanchek, I really have to wonder as to WHY you are sticking up for these peices of shit? Is there some angle or is it just a general distaste of government interferance? Or do you just like stirring the pot to keep things lively and couldn't care less?

Sanchek
03-30-2009, 09:13 PM
Obama didnt whip up the populism. Im pretty sure he would have been quite happy if this never came out, the bankers got their lewts and the world moved on.

He's been lending credibility to this garbage and amplifying it:

Executives at AIG, which has received about $180 billion in taxpayer bailout money, were paid $165 million in bonuses. Many recipients of the bonuses have agreed to give the back. "Had we not seen some healthy expressions of anger, we wouldn't have gotten $50 million of those bonuses back." Obama said.

Not to mention the entire Democratic leadership, in both Legislative and Executive branches, feigning surprise and outrage:

President Barack Obama’s administration expressed outrage on Sunday at $165m of bonuses paid by the troubled insurance group AIG, as the company revealed that European banks had benefited heavily from its massive government rescue.

Lawrence Summers, Mr Obama’s senior economic adviser, said that AIG’s behaviour was “outrageous”. But he added that the administration’s ability to force the company to cut the bonuses was limited.

...

Barney Frank, chairman of the House financial services committee, told Fox News: “We need to find out whether these bonuses are legally recoverable.”

Until they were later busted:

WASHINGTON (AP) — Cue the outrage. For months, the Obama administration and members of Congress have known that insurance giant AIG was getting ready to pay huge bonuses while living off government bailouts. It wasn't until the money was flowing and news was trickling out to the public that official Washington rose up in anger and vowed to yank the money back.

...

The bonus problem wasn't new, as many lawmakers and administration officials knew only too well. AIG's plans to pay hundreds of millions of dollars were publicized last fall, when Congress started asking questions about expensive junkets the company had sponsored. A November SEC filing by the company details more than $469 million in "retention payments" to keep prized employees.

Back then, Rep. Elijah E. Cummings, D-Md., began pumping Liddy for information on the bonuses and pressing him to scale them back. "There was outrage brewing already," Cummings said. "I'm saying (to Liddy), 'Be a good citizen. ... Do something about this.' "

Around the same time, outside lawyers hired by the Federal Reserve started reviewing the bonuses as part of a broader look at retention and compensation plans, according to government officials who spoke on condition of anonymity. The outside attorneys examined the possibility of making changes to the company plans — scaling them back, delaying them or rescinding them. They ultimately concluded that even if AIG's bonuses were withheld, the company would probably be sued successfully by its employees and be forced to pay them, the officials said.

...

"The president goes out and says this is not acceptable, and then some backroom deal gets cut to let these things get paid out anyway," Wyden said. "They need to put this to bed once and for all."

Last Wednesday, an apparently tense conversation between Geithner and Liddy brought the matter to a head. Geithner had learned of the bonus payments the previous day, said a Treasury Department official familiar with the government's dealings with AIG.

Liddy, in a letter to Geithner on Saturday, referred to their "open and frank conversation" over the retention payments on March 11. "I admit that the conversation was a difficult one for me," Liddy wrote.

I don't need a President that capitulates and even congratulates the mob. Anyone can do that. We might as well elect Rover!

Today more than ever, we need a President with the fortitude to simply explain that the "bonuses" were not awarded to people who wrote CDS instruments and were contractually agreed to by the government. Lending tacit approval to class warfare, when the country is already in turmoil, is not Presidential in the least.

Sanchek
03-30-2009, 09:14 PM
Sanchek, I really have to wonder as to WHY you are sticking up for these peices of shit? Is there some angle or is it just a general distaste of government interferance?

I've answered that question several times on this thread.

You're probably right that they're overpaid douchebags, but that couldn't be less relevant to whether or not their legal contracts should be punitively abrogated by the government. Sounds more like China than America to me.

LummusL
03-30-2009, 09:30 PM
You're probably right that they're overpaid douchebags, but that couldn't be less relevant to whether or not their legal contracts should be punitively abrogated by the government. Sounds more like China than America to me.

The contracts to AIG employees were NOT violated. All those millions were indeed paid. Some of the money got returned due to the pressure of the "populist movement" AKA peer pressure but a good chunk more was not returned. Those that kept it were within their legal rights to say "Fuck you. I'm not the one who screwed up. The contract and the law says this is my money. I earned it as per contract. I'm keeping it". To Obama's credit, he has been trying to rein in governance by anger, which is why most of these Wall Streeters have been legally able to skate by unscathed. Many state governments would like to burn these people alive as well as federal types, but legally there is absolutely nothing anyone can do without totally undermining the very principles of the Constitution. There are plenty of good arguements that the stimulus itself is taking the Constitution and turning it into high dollar toilet paper as it stands, removed from trying to go after these crooks.

That doesn't stop anyone from playing on people's consciences and calling their morals, patriotism etc into question.

Sanchek
03-30-2009, 09:36 PM
The contracts to AIG employees were NOT violated. All those millions were indeed paid. Some of the money got returned due to the pressure of the "populist movement" AKA peer pressure but a good chunk more was not returned. Those that kept it were within their legal rights to say "Fuck you. I'm not the one who screwed up. The contract and the law says this is my money. I earned it as per contract. I'm keeping it". To Obama's credit, he has been trying to rein in governance by anger, which is why most of these Wall Streeters have been legally able to skate by unscathed. Many state governments would like to burn these people alive as well as federal types, but legally there is absolutely nothing anyone can do without totally undermining the very principles of the Constitution. There are plenty of good arguements that the stimulus itself is taking the Constitution and turning it into high dollar toilet paper as it stands, removed from trying to go after these crooks.

That doesn't stop anyone from playing on people's consciences and calling their morals, patriotism etc into question.

If you followed the news over the course of Obama/Frank/Dodd's phony outrage, they started off threatening to find a way to break the contracts.

Then, they talked about passing this (illegal) 90% tax that's in the House now.

Then, Cuomo started threatening to release a list of the individuals who got the bonuses. Keep in mind that the death threats were already flowing freely. Releasing a list of individuals would be tacitly endorsing vigilante justice.

Is this really Change We Can Believe In? I sure as hell hope this isn't a preview of the next 3.75 years to come.

LummusL
03-30-2009, 09:55 PM
Find proof that any of these measures have become actual law and then you have an arguement. No one has been indicted. No one has been taxed beyond what is normal. Heck most of these bonuses have already been safely squirrelled away into shelters. What has happened is alot of people are pissed off and running their mouths because the First Ammendment states that they can. Some in government have even said that these people should resign or commit suicide. Some crusty old senator. I forget his name.

People can propose all the legislation by anger they want, but ultimately it has to go through the Judiciary (that silent partner in our government no one talks about because they are NEVER on board with the current administration and thus keep everything in check) where it will die silently in its sleep. If all this illegal legislation is splashed all over the news, smart money wagers that the vanguards of the Constitution are paying close attention.

Ultimately, its all talk. Perhaps its unprofessional but do you really expect ANYONE in government to wantingly go on record that allowing these bonuses to be paid is the right way to spend the taxpayer's money, even if it is...after all, in the eyes of law, the right thing to do? Yes, some have done that but its easier and more in line with the public sentiment to decry these bonuses. /shrug. Talk is always cheap, though.

We might as well elect Rover!

Sure, why not? He knows more about government service than you do.

Jedd Corpse
03-30-2009, 11:33 PM
sure, why not? He knows more about government service than you do.


zing!

Greystone Thorngage
03-30-2009, 11:59 PM
Is this really Change We Can Believe In? I sure as hell hope this isn't a preview of the next 3.75 years to come.

im going to keep a tally of how many times this will be said in some form, im pretty sure its up to 30+ by now. Way to regurgitate that you hear on the radio :)

Kelraz Bladesinger
03-31-2009, 12:21 AM
Oops. Greystone beat me to it.

Sanchek
03-31-2009, 12:32 AM
Find proof that any of these measures have become actual law and then you have an arguement. No one has been indicted. No one has been taxed beyond what is normal. Heck most of these bonuses have already been safely squirrelled away into shelters. What has happened is alot of people are pissed off and running their mouths because the First Ammendment states that they can. Some in government have even said that these people should resign or commit suicide. Some crusty old senator. I forget his name.

What the hell are you talking about? They threatened these people on a national stage (and Cuomo is still threatening) until many of them felt forced to give up their legally earned compensation.

Great, we managed not to pass any unconstitutional bills yet, but were able to bully these people into the same end result. So, instead of corrupt politicians, we have the President and his goons running a protection racket instead. That's so much better.

People can propose all the legislation by anger they want, but ultimately it has to go through the Judiciary (that silent partner in our government no one talks about because they are NEVER on board with the current administration and thus keep everything in check) where it will die silently in its sleep. If all this illegal legislation is splashed all over the news, smart money wagers that the vanguards of the Constitution are paying close attention.

Are you joking? The Patriot Act? FISA immunity? Rendition? Undoing Posse Comitatus? Any of that ring a bell? If you think Judicial is on the ball and defending the Constitution from Executive and Legislative, you've been living in a cave for a decade.

Sanchek
03-31-2009, 12:35 AM
im going to keep a tally of how many times this will be said in some form, im pretty sure its up to 30+ by now. Way to regurgitate that you hear on the radio :)

It's not my fault your boy is flopping. I want him to succeed, if he's all we get. He is not, thus far.

I never really paid much attention to McCain's yammering about his inexperience, but it's becoming obvious that the man had a point.

You know what's more cliche than letting Obama's words bite him in the ass (I sure didn't make up that cliche)? Trying to mount a hollow defense by calling valid criticisms cliche.

Sanchek
03-31-2009, 12:39 AM
Oddly absent are these blowhards shunning their AIG bonuses, eh?

Here's the list of top AIG recipients for the 2008 campaign:

1. Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn., $103,100
2. Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., $101,332
3. Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., $59,499
4. Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., $35,965
5. Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont., $24,750
6. Former Gov. Mitt Romney, (R) Pres $20,850
7. Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del., $19,975
8. Rep. John Larson, D-Conn, $19,750
9. Sen. John Sununu, R-N.H., $18,500
10. Former Mayor Rudolph Giuliani (R) Pres $13,200
11. Rep. Paul Kanjorski, D-Pa., $12,000
12. Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., $11,000

Any guess what they did to "earn" their bonuses?!

Jedd Corpse
03-31-2009, 02:16 AM
Oddly absent are these blowhards shunning their AIG bonuses, eh?



Any guess what they did to "earn" their bonuses?!

I would like to know where on that list your name shows up? Cause you are spending more time making excuses for AIG then any of those on the list.

Sanchek
03-31-2009, 02:19 AM
Why would I donate to thieves like Dodd and Obama? That doesn't make sense.

Care to try again?

LummusL
03-31-2009, 02:23 AM
Oh. I'm sorry Sanchek I missed the part where you proposed viable solutions.

Besides doing nothing.

Which I guess is what we should have done for 9/11. Right Sanchek?

Hand out some folded up flags to some widows. Say a few insightful eulogies. And then stick our heads right back in the sand.

Its too bad the unwashed masses who clearly have no grasp of modern law, demand action of their elected representatives. To do nothing at all is more harmful in the eyes of the voters than doing something and letting history decide later if it was the right thing to do.

Maybe this IS a case were nothing should have been done. If AIG completely imploded, along with every other company currently sucking the gov't tit, well then it would have been on AIG to grasp the severity of their plight and reneg on the bonuses under internal pressure. Perhaps if GM folded than there would be no pie on the face of Obama for chiding Wagoneer to resign. Of course the damage to the economy and the US's global reputation would have been vast. Perhaps that would be the last straw for the voter, and we would sink into complete turmoil, revolution etc. Perhaps we would even deserve it, becoming just another third world banana republic. Our enemies and alot of our so called friends would be so very happy. A bunch of what-ifs. Once again that damn pesky grey shade! Sorry White hat and Black hat wearers! This isn't a binary world. Its more like calculus with made up numbers that convenienently fit into a made up construct that somehow makes the unknown and complex that much easier to digest.

Jedd Corpse
03-31-2009, 02:33 AM
Why would I donate to thieves like Dodd and Obama? That doesn't make sense.

Care to try again?

Reading comprehension...

You + Name on list = AIG paid you.

Where on the list are you as a recipient of money from AIG? God knows you defend them more then number 1 + 2 on that list combined.

Sanchek
03-31-2009, 02:34 AM
Oh. I'm sorry Sanchek I missed the part where you proposed viable solutions.

Viable solutions? Solutions to what? Employees collecting their legally entitled compensation? What an atrocity!

We'd better liquidate the kulaks, eh?

Which I guess is what we should have done for 9/11. Right Sanchek?

Hand out some folded up flags to some widows. Say a few insightful eulogies. And then stick our heads right back in the sand.

Even if you agree that demolishing Iraq was somehow beneficial to our national security, that is in no way relevant to the fact that Judicial watched for years as the Constitution was marginalized. If you think those encroachments were justified by the "terrorists", you're certainly entitled to your opinion. Doesn't make this statement any less false though:

smart money wagers that the vanguards of the Constitution are paying close attention.

Sanchek
03-31-2009, 02:36 AM
Reading comprehension...

You + Name on list = AIG paid you.

Where on the list are you as a recipient of money from AIG? God knows you defend them more then number 1 + 2 on that list combined.

I already addressed that for comrade Rover earlier in the thread. I have no ties to AIG whatsoever (and no investment in them).

Try to keep up.

LummusL
03-31-2009, 02:51 AM
Viable solutions? Solutions to what? Employees collecting their legally entitled compensation? What an atrocity!

It IS an ATROCITY you asshole! What the fuck is wrong with you anyway? Thats OUR money they are pissing away. Its bad enough our government pisses it away trying to help these clowns and they in turn piss it away further!

Can they pay a claim? Oh wait the government had to loan them the money to do that. And to think that its A-OK for a company that can't even provide the services its sells to the public in trust without taxpayer dollars intervening and yet its perfectly fine for them to help themselves to just a bit more perk? What in the fuck are you smoking? Granted no one can do shit about it legally but to chastice people for being angry about this is just plain fucking stupid, Sanchek. I guess it comes with being an elitist prick, right? Reality and common sense need not apply as long as the ones and zeros are all in agreement. The Sanchek has spoken!

Well, remind me to hit these good folks up for a ride on the Gulfstream IV and a glass of Dom the next time I am in the neck of the woods. My tax dollars paid for some of that.

As for the unconstitutional aspects of the aftebirth that was the last administration, they are being picked apart and yes, being deemed unconstitutional. Sucks that they got passed but ..that was then and this is now. Obviously it doesn't matter who gets elected since you always have a better plan. Well, run for fucking office then and see how that pans out. You won't get my vote. There are enough delusional people in government.

Maybe try Anarchy and see how far that gets you?

Sanchek
03-31-2009, 03:10 AM
You're sliding into the same fallacies that Rover did with this stuff:

Can they pay a claim? Oh wait the government had to loan them the money to do that. And to think that its A-OK for a company that can't even provide the services its sells to the public in trust without taxpayer dollars intervening and yet its perfectly fine for them to help themselves to just a bit more perk?

Keep in mind that the only claims they couldn't pay were AIGFP's credit default swaps on CDOs.

Claims on things like car insurance, property insurance, etc are absolutely, completely unaffected. The other subsidiaries (there are dozens other than AIGFP, and FP didn't handle any real insurance) are fully capitalized and that is protected by state law in every state.

Even if AIG were to fold completely, those subsidiary policies that affect real people would be perfectly safe, with money in escrow. For that matter, if AIG were to fail, those subsidiaries would keep right on selling insurance and paying claims, completely independent of this political mess. They're all still as profitable as ever.

So, most of that rant had no basis in reality.

If taking the time to understand something before rushing to judgment makes me elitist, I suppose I prefer that to being proudly ignorant.

And let's be clear. Tax dollars paid for nothing. This money was created through the FED, and will be paid back with (high) interest. Statements like:

Well, remind me to hit these good folks up for a ride on the Gulfstream IV and a glass of Dom the next time I am in the neck of the woods. My tax dollars paid for some of that.

Are cute, but also not true. AIG will repay LIBOR + 8.5% on their loans, and that's what we're entitled to (which will probably go straight back to the FED, not Treasury). We only have an equity position in AIG, not a controlling one.

In other words, we didn't pay for anything of the sort.

Maybe try Anarchy and see how far that gets you?

What, like never knowing who the government will target next, in a fit of populist angst? Yeah, that would suck. Let's nip that in the bud, eh?

LummusL
03-31-2009, 03:38 AM
Ok. I'll play your little game.

You can be informed all knowing sage and how about I represent the ignorant beer swilling waste of DNA you look down your nose to when its not stuck up in the air? There are alot more of me than there are of you. Democracy in action.

Then you can understand WHY the government is riding this populist wave. Oh they are just as much of a wonder kid as you are since they know that AIG is not in the wrong, but what is going to keep them in office eh? Being the one that says to the public:

"AIG must get this money because its the law. Do your homework next time before you call my office."
or
" Maybe you are on to something, Joe Barstool, when you say you are angry that your tax money is being sent to prop up a company who made bad decisions, all the while claiming to be healthy enough to operate on its own and pay bonuses. I want to help you"

Most of us are stupid, Sanchek. Its not a good thing. Not one bit. But its reality. Blame the shitty education system. Blame it on not enough time to do everything in the day to learn all the facts and figures. Blame it on the rain. Perception and fact never coincide.

Keep in mind that the only claims they couldn't pay were AIGFP's credit default swaps on CDOs.


They are an insurance underwriter. If they can't pay out even ONE claim due to there being no funds, then tell me why these bonuses are supposed to be an easy sell to the public?

Look. You have plenty of facts. Figures etc. Just shove em right up your ass. So deep you can chew on them. You made your point and in the reality of most people, it doesn't mean shit even if its correct and thats the only concession I can offer you. AIG accepted gov't loans, I guess, I dunno, because they needed the money? Or maybe just to restore consumer confidence and reassure AIG policy holders? Would you buy insurance from anyone who defaults on claims and hemorages money? Probably not. Probably the same goes for buying a GM or Chrysler product. Are they going to be there tomorrow when its time for service and parts? No humility for these chaps though. If AIG really wanted to turn off these bonuses, they could have found a way. Legally. But they didn't and never intended to.

Bottom line is the PERCEPTION to the public (which is the core of politics)is that these bonuses are an outrage and if enough people believe it, well. Then its true. Its a bitter pill to swallow. But that is politics. Not much of it is based on logic or sense, otherwise you would not have so many governments based on, just for the sake of example, Islamic law.

Sanchek
03-31-2009, 12:15 PM
They are an insurance underwriter. If they can't pay out even ONE claim due to there being no funds, then tell me why these bonuses are supposed to be an easy sell to the public?

Question is, why does it matter? AIG isn't beholden to the government in that way. There's absolutely no reason why an opinion mob should be determining anyone's compensation.

If people want to be upset about the compensation, they should be upset at the FED for negotiating a purely equity position in AIG, leaving an 80% owner with 0 control over the company.

Or maybe just to restore consumer confidence and reassure AIG policy holders? Would you buy insurance from anyone who defaults on claims and hemorages money? Probably not.

I want to address this again.

AIG's subsidiaries are fine. They're still selling insurance and paying claims. They would have been even if AIG failed, due to the way that state insurance regulations work.

All the auto, property, casualty, etc insurance is completely isolated from this one bad subsidiary, and the CDS products at that one bad subsidiary (AIGFP) only affect clients like investment banks; not real people. If you dislike the wealthy so much, you should be ecstatic about the possibility that these CDSes might not pay out to them!

As stupid as you suggest that the general public is, do you think they're now less likely to by insurance from Sun America or Lexington Insurance? Probably not. Most of them probably don't even realize they have "AIG" insurance.

Bottom line is the PERCEPTION to the public (which is the core of politics)is that these bonuses are an outrage and if enough people believe it, well. Then its true. Its a bitter pill to swallow. But that is politics. Not much of it is based on logic or sense, otherwise you would not have so many governments based on, just for the sake of example, Islamic law.

In the end, I don't think we disagree very much about the sad state of our general public.

Lleauric
03-31-2009, 05:11 PM
AIG's subsidiaries are fine. They're still selling insurance and paying claims. They would have been even if AIG failed, due to the way that state insurance regulations work.

Half the house is just fine!

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1058/602951343_f96b7ee4c1.jpg?v=0

Sanchek
03-31-2009, 05:31 PM
AIGFP makes up a tiny, tiny minority of AIG's total number of policies. They just blew up into a gigantic majority of dollars they were liable for.

FP may take the holding company down, but won't touch all those policies underwritten by companies like Sun America and Lexington Insurance. And, those are the policies a populist should care about, not the FP ones written on banks' CDOs.

Lleauric
03-31-2009, 05:50 PM
It doesnt matter.

http://www.financialweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080218/REG/794188688

They have 125 Billion in direct exposure from CDS.

Sanchek
03-31-2009, 07:33 PM
That is still irrelevant to what I said in the post you replied to though. They could have 125 trillion in CDS exposure at AIGFP, and that still wouldn't have the slightest effect on the solvency of Lexington or Sun or any of the other subsidiaries.

What's more, the only part of the house in trouble is the part that's propping up the banks that you guys seem to hate so much. It seems awfully paradoxical that you hate the banks but also hate AIG for not padding their pockets with CDS payouts.

LummusL
03-31-2009, 07:57 PM
What is your angle on this, Sanchek because there is NO reason to throw in with these twits other than elitism or general sociopaths habits. You recently bought a fire arm and expressed that you live in a not so great neighborhood so you are not sticking up for the wealthy as a card carrying member of their club. Do you work for these firms or in these sectors? Do they pay your salary or is it just a general distaste for the ignorance of the common voter?

I really have to know, since you do such a good job on prodding me as to why I as a service member has some of my perspectives. I don't have much of a hatred for banks or insurance. For me its a necessary evil just like everyone else. I do business with USAA, Wells Fargo and Navy Federal so my exposure to this mess, minus Wells Fargo acquiring Wahovia has been limited.
Like most though, I feel AIG is particularly dirty and can't help but wonder as to why anyone would feel a desire to stick up for a firm that at the very least has made a lot of bad choices, knew they were bad choices, continued to make these bad choices and then ran to Uncle Sugar for our tax dollars to help bandaid their booboo they got when they knew that the dog might bite if you keep kicking it hard enough.

Sanchek
03-31-2009, 08:26 PM
You misunderstood my firearm purchases. I live in West Roswell.

I have no connection to AIG, nor even a penny invested in them. That's at least the third or fourth time I've stated that.

I've written a lot of software for the insurance industry* over the past decade and am repulsed by all of the gross inaccuracies I see people throwing around about AIG. Like saying that AIGFP will somehow impact the "main street" insurance policies of AIG's subsidiaries. That is simply false, period.

No different than how you react when someone (sometimes me!) talks out of their ass about military issues, I cannot help but respond to falsehoods about this industry that I know well.

My angle? I don't like where this is going. It's profoundly un-American to punitively go after these guys just because they're wealthy and times are tough. It's a terrible precedent to set, and I won't mindlessly go along with it just because the first target happens to be one that's easy to dislike.

History has taught us the danger of that slippery slope many times over.

* To be clear, my software only works with cohorts of discrete property. It's used for rating and insuring physical property, not any of this derivative douchebaggery that AIGFP got into.

LummusL
03-31-2009, 09:05 PM
Ok. I get it.

Working for that sector pays your bills, gives a nice comfy living in the 'burbs in the area of East Snobb (while still being able to have that Fulton County sticker on your tag). Removed from that, you have some institutional knowledge removed from the layperson.

It's profoundly un-American to punitively go after these guys just because they're wealthy and times are tough.

There is that aspect, but these guys are not innocent. Most of the nation's wealthy, other than taking a beating on their portfolios, are not in the crosshairs of the government. Perhaps its considered distasteful to flaunt wealth given the current situation, but there is no big push to deny people the right to honestly become rich. If you have a good idea, great. Reap the rewards.

As for AIG and their execs, there is a lot of culpability that company has from their part in this current downturn. Top management had to have known they were playing with fire and it could very well backfire. The decision making goes all the way to the top, regardless of which division or subsidary can claim innocence, and it was the top brass that got the biggest bonuses. Whats also un-American, although perhaps its more American now, is no accountibility nor a sense of humility or even a sense that what they did is at the very least dishorable. Wealthy people are not above the law or moral standards and in fact should be held to a higher standard because they have exposure to decisions that effect vastly more people's lives than Joe Schmukatelli toiling for a pittance. They are held in the public's trust that they will do whats in the best interest of their employees, the legacy of their firm and the best interest of the nation that grants them their charter. Corporations are public property in that its not the bigwigs that hold all the deeds. They are stewards if anything. Sometimes they need to be reminded of that, and when they screw up, its in poor taste to give yourself a reward.

Sanchek
03-31-2009, 09:16 PM
Ok. I get it.

Working for that sector pays your bills, gives a nice comfy living in the 'burbs in the area of East Snobb (while still being able to have that Fulton County sticker on your tag). Removed from that, you have some institutional knowledge removed from the layperson.

Milton County soon, hopefully!

I don't do much work in that industry anymore. Just a bit of maintenance on what's still in use. It wasn't really great money. I do better now, with less hassle, doing contract work on web apps.

Not that you care, but just understand it was never some goldmine for me and I'm not even deriving 5% of my income from that at this point.

There is that aspect, but these guys are not innocent. Most of the nation's wealthy, other than taking a beating on their portfolios, are not in the crosshairs of the government. Perhaps its considered distasteful to flaunt wealth, but there is no big push to deny people the right to honestly become rich. If you have a good idea, great. Reap the rewards.

As for AIG and their execs, there is a lot of culpability that company has from their part in this current downturn. Top management had to have known they were playing with fire and it could very well backfire. The decision making goes all the way to the top, regardless of which division or subsidary can claim innocence, and it was the top brass that got the biggest bonuses. Whats also un-American, although perhaps its more American now, is no accountibility nor a sense of humility or even a sense that what they did is at the very least dishorable. Wealthy people are not above the law or moral standards and in fact should be held to a higher standard because they have exposure to decisions that effect vastly more people's lives than Joe Schmukatelli toiling for a pittance. They are held in the public's trust that they will do whats in the best interest of their employees, the legacy of their firm and the best interest of the nation that grants them their charter. Corporations are public property in that its not the bigwigs that hold all the deeds. They are stewards if anything. Sometimes they need to be reminded of that, and when they screw up, its in poor taste to give yourself a reward.

This comes back to blaming the wrong people. If all this populist angst was directed toward Joseph Cassano, you wouldn't hear a peep of opposition out of me. In fact, you ought to be asking yourself why isn't the administration redirecting all this where it genuinely belongs anyway? Could it have something to do with their AIG bonuses?

Regardless, blaming a guy that did commodities trading or a guy that did aircraft leases is absurd. Like I said before, that's just inane as blaming you for our failures in the Middle East.

Rover
03-31-2009, 09:23 PM
My point is this. I don't care if someone makes $2000.00 per year or $200,000,000 dollars per year. The dollars someone makes have nothing to do with how I view those people. What matters is how they made their money.

AIGFP made it through a very insidious business model and they straight out wrote policies they couldn't cover in a million years. By doing that they endangered the very security of our country. You can opine all you want that they simply asked for a "loan" and it will be paid back in 2 years with interest.

The fact is in order to do that they need to sell assets that can be monetized for the amount of the payback. I bet they can't.

No one argues that their car insurance policies won't payout or their life insurance policies won't pay, but honestly, do you really trust them to be truthful in their accounting? They haven't yet been.

The problem with AIGFP is AIG. No one in charge there stopped them or even attempted to, that was the point of Taibbis article. He's not a fool, he's a very good investigative journalist and his piece shows that.

Tell me, what business is going to buy that worthless pile of paper that has caused this? It gets even more worthless everyday because it is based on realestate loans mostly and those properties just lost an average of 19% in the last quarter alone.

Why do you believe Desantis? He said he was donating his "bonus" anyhow, so why is he bitching that he is working for $1.00? He was never going to see that money according to him. You're buying these guys bullshit because you think you are in the know due to writing programs for capitilization. Do yourself a favor, they are lying, they don't care not even enough to realize what a public relations pile of shit they are creating.

You wrote programs for companies that did it the way they were supposed to, AIG did not save a for a few divisions that can't even carry the load now.

LummusL
03-31-2009, 09:36 PM
Milton County soon, hopefully!


That crap is still floating around? Heh. All because Roswell doesn't want to pay for things like MARTA and all the problems of inner-city Atlanta. You could almost play the race card too if you really wanted too..... And yet without downtown that area would not be nearly as well off. Give downtown 10 more years and Roswell will hate ever parting ways from Fulton County.

Sanchek
03-31-2009, 10:56 PM
That crap is still floating around? Heh. All because Roswell doesn't want to pay for things like MARTA and all the problems of inner-city Atlanta. You could almost play the race card too if you really wanted too..... And yet without downtown that area would not be nearly as well off. Give downtown 10 more years and Roswell will hate ever parting ways from Fulton County.

Nah, it'll be great. Atlanta is run by more and more incompetent morons every year; only getting worse.

They refuse to balance their budgets, cutting police/fire while giving raises to the affirmative action jobs. It's getting out of control. The thing is, that doesn't fly in Georgia where, legally, the budget must be balanced even when there's money sitting in the coffers. There's no room to float Atlanta City some welfare until they learn how to run Quickbooks.

Sandy Springs, John's Creek, and Milton have had great success breaking off. Time for North Fulton to do the same.

We'd still be paying for Marta. It runs all the way to at least Northpoint, if not to Windward.

Sanchek
03-31-2009, 11:14 PM
You wrote programs for companies that did it the way they were supposed to, AIG did not save a for a few divisions that can't even carry the load now.

This illustrates what bugs me most about your generalizations. Have you even bothered to research AIG at all, before attempting to speak authoritatively about them?

The last I checked, there are roughly 75 subsidiaries in the AIG group, AIGFP being one of those and the majority of the rest being profitable. There are probably even more of them now.

It's not the subsidiaries' job to support AIGFP. In fact, they are specifically insulated from having to do just that. Every state has regulations in place to make sure that doesn't happen without the state's express consent.

The fact is in order to do that they need to sell assets that can be monetized for the amount of the payback. I bet they can't.

The plan is for AIG to sell off some of AIG's profitable subsidiaries to pay back the loan. Not dip into those subsidiaries or try to use their profits to pay the loan, mind you, but sell the subsidiaries whole and use those proceeds.

AIGFP obviously can't sell their CDS paper for enough to cover it, but that's completely irrelevant at this point.

Tell me, what business is going to buy that worthless pile of paper that has caused this? It gets even more worthless everyday because it is based on realestate loans mostly and those properties just lost an average of 19% in the last quarter alone.

Keep in mind that AIGFP did business in commodities, aircraft leasing, and other non-CDS activities. No matter how worthless the CDSes are, there are plenty of good assets that need to be liquidated. Sure, the CDSes will have to be unwound at pennies on the dollar, but that's only part of what they're unloading at AIGFP right now.

I really don't understand what would make you happy. Would it really satisfy you for AIG to fire all the people working to liquidate AIGFP, losing even more money than necessary?

In reality, if they made such an irresponsible decision, it would cost them even more than the loses in liquidation. Not only would the employees with contracts win lawsuits against AIG, but the shareholders would be a shoe-in for winning a shareholder suit too.

Then, you'd be slamming them for mismanaging the company on "our dime" and opening themselves to those suits.

LummusL
03-31-2009, 11:18 PM
Well, I have not been living in ATL Metro since 2003 so I am a bit out of the times. My contract is up in 2011 and I am seriously thinking of going back into the private sector, depending on if the economy is in the clinker still. With a background in construction, needless to say outside of major municiple projects and adaptive re-use which are the staples of a bad economy, the pickings are a wee bit slim right now. I still have alot of ties to Atlanta and have been casually browsing the housing market there with the possibility of buying a house somewhere in the area, well in addition to getting a job and finishing my degree. :p

Atlanta has had a bad string of mayors. Bill Campbell was a real piece of work. Heh, it takes a special person to go from the Mayor's house to the Big House. Its not surprsing that Atlanta has budget issues.

I really don't understand what would make you happy. Would it really satisfy you for AIG to fire all the people working to liquidate AIGFP, losing even more money than necessary?

I can't speak for Rover. What would make me happy is a bit of belt tightening and humility. Rover did touch on the public relations aspect. That is an important part of the equation for many, but that probably just harkens back to the whole populist bit which you have thoroughly discounted is being irrelevant due to the general ignorance of the public at large.

Sanchek
03-31-2009, 11:26 PM
Well, I have not been living in ATL Metro since 2003 so I am a bit out of the times. My contract is up in 2011 and I am seriously thinking of going back into the private sector, depending on if the economy is in the clinker still. With a background in construction, needless to say outside of major municiple projects and adaptive re-use which are the staples of a bad economy, the pickings are a wee bit slim right now. I still have alot of ties to Atlanta and have been casually browsing the housing market there with the possibility of buying a house somewhere in the area, well in addition to getting a job and finishing my degree. :p

Atlanta has had a bad string of mayors. Bill Campbell was a real piece of work. Heh, it takes a special person to go from the Mayor's house to the Big House. Its not surprsing that Atlanta has budget issues.

Franklin is like a less charismatic, less competent Campbell. It's a debacle. The most ridiculous part is that she happily sucks funds out of our budget, but we can't vote on the Atlanta City Mayor up here.

If I'm still here in 2011, I'll buy you a beer or 12.

I can't speak for Rover. What would make me happy is a bit of belt tightening and humility. Rover did touch on the public relations aspect. That is an important part of the equation for many, but that probably just harkens back to the whole populist bit which you have thoroughly discounted is being irrelevant due to the general ignorance of the public at large.

Well, there have been several AIG apologies, and they did cancel some of those later retreats. The new CEO himself was quite contrite in Congress.

At the same time, I hardly blame a rank and file employee (who didn't participate in the CDS portion of the business) for not being apologetic about getting paid what they were contractually promised.

Sanchek
04-01-2009, 12:35 AM
Franklin is like a less charismatic, less competent Campbell. It's a debacle. The most ridiculous part is that she happily sucks funds out of our budget, but we can't vote on the Atlanta City Mayor up here.

Like this: http://www.ajc.com/services/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2009/03/31/atlanta_dekalb_tax.html?cxtype=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=13

Rover
04-03-2009, 08:52 PM
Heh...funny...I wonder where I heard this stuff before?

Insurance Regulators May Reduce Use of Rating Firms


By Andrew Frye

April 3 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. state insurance regulators may reduce their dependence on firms including Standard & Poor’s and Moody’s Investors Service, saying they are looking into ratings “shortcomings.”

The National Association of Insurance Commissioners has assigned a group to explore “the reasons for recent rating shortcomings” and “the problems inherent in reliance on ratings,” the group said in a statement on its Web site.

The watchdogs are conducting their review after insurers’ portfolios were buffeted by downgrades to commercial mortgage- backed securities held to help back policies. Regulators currently rely on ratings assigned by S&P, Moody’s and other firms when calculating the amount of capital insurance companies must hold to protect against losses on CMBS and other so-called structured securities.

The potential that insurers will need more capital because of downgrades “is on our radar screen,” NAIC President Roger Sevigny said in an interview. New York Insurance Superintendent Eric Dinallo and Michael McRaith, director of insurance for Illinois, are heading the NAIC group, which was set up “for this very sort of thing,” Sevigny said.

Life insurers have reported losses and profit declines as the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression pushes down the value of investments. Earlier this year, state regulators granted looser capital requirements to carriers including Principal Financial Group Inc. and Hartford Financial Services Group Inc. after stock drops made raising private funds more expensive.

‘Constructive Dialogue’

Regulators are seeking to “engage the rating agencies in a constructive dialogue,” McRaith said.

Abbas Qasim, a spokesman for Moody’s, and Edward Sweeney, a spokesman for S&P, had no immediate comment.

Lawmakers and regulators have criticized rating firms for conflicts of interest that may have led to excessively high bond ratings and a failure to warn investors about default risks. Financial institutions have taken $1 trillion in credit losses and writedowns spurred by the collapse of subprime mortgage securities, helping push the global economy into recession.

Dinallo said in a Wall Street Journal op-ed last month that the current rating system is “fundamentally flawed” and leads to inflated credit grades. The cost of paying for bond ratings should fall to buyers of securities, not sellers, Dinallo said.

“Since insurance regulators make very heavy use of those ratings we thought it was important to look to fix where there have been some very obvious problems,” said David Neustadt, a spokesman for Dinallo.

To contact the reporter on this story: Andrew Frye in New York at afrye@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: April 3, 2009 17:31 EDT