Good read...


By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: April 12, 2009


This is a column about Republicans — and I’m not sure I should even be writing it.

Today’s G.O.P. is, after all, very much a minority party. It retains some limited ability to obstruct the Democrats, but has no ability to make or even significantly shape policy.

Beyond that, Republicans have become embarrassing to watch. And it doesn’t feel right to make fun of crazy people. Better, perhaps, to focus on the real policy debates, which are all among Democrats.

But here’s the thing: the G.O.P. looked as crazy 10 or 15 years ago as it does now. That didn’t stop Republicans from taking control of both Congress and the White House. And they could return to power if the Democrats stumble. So it behooves us to look closely at the state of what is, after all, one of our nation’s two great political parties.

One way to get a good sense of the current state of the G.O.P., and also to see how little has really changed, is to look at the “tea parties” that have been held in a number of places already, and will be held across the country on Wednesday. These parties — antitaxation demonstrations that are supposed to evoke the memory of the Boston Tea Party and the American Revolution — have been the subject of considerable mockery, and rightly so.

But everything that critics mock about these parties has long been standard practice within the Republican Party.

Thus, President Obama is being called a “socialist” who seeks to destroy capitalism. Why? Because he wants to raise the tax rate on the highest-income Americans back to, um, about 10 percentage points less than it was for most of the Reagan administration. Bizarre.

But the charge of socialism is being thrown around only because “liberal” doesn’t seem to carry the punch it used to. And if you go back just a few years, you find top Republican figures making equally bizarre claims about what liberals were up to. Remember when Karl Rove declared that liberals wanted to offer “therapy and understanding” to the 9/11 terrorists?

Then there are the claims made at some recent tea-party events that Mr. Obama wasn’t born in America, which follow on earlier claims that he is a secret Muslim. Crazy stuff — but nowhere near as crazy as the claims, during the last Democratic administration, that the Clintons were murderers, claims that were supported by a campaign of innuendo on the part of big-league conservative media outlets and figures, especially Rush Limbaugh.

Speaking of Mr. Limbaugh: the most impressive thing about his role right now is the fealty he is able to demand from the rest of the right. The abject apologies he has extracted from Republican politicians who briefly dared to criticize him have been right out of Stalinist show trials. But while it’s new to have a talk-radio host in that role, ferocious party discipline has been the norm since the 1990s, when Tom DeLay, the House majority leader, became known as “The Hammer” in part because of the way he took political retribution on opponents.

Going back to those tea parties, Mr. DeLay, a fierce opponent of the theory of evolution — he famously suggested that the teaching of evolution led to the Columbine school massacre — also foreshadowed the denunciations of evolution that have emerged at some of the parties.

Last but not least: it turns out that the tea parties don’t represent a spontaneous outpouring of public sentiment. They’re AstroTurf (fake grass roots) events, manufactured by the usual suspects. In particular, a key role is being played by FreedomWorks, an organization run by Richard Armey, the former House majority leader, and supported by the usual group of right-wing billionaires. And the parties are, of course, being promoted heavily by Fox News.

But that’s nothing new, and AstroTurf has worked well for Republicans in the past. The most notable example was the “spontaneous” riot back in 2000 — actually orchestrated by G.O.P. strategists — that shut down the presidential vote recount in Florida’s Miami-Dade County.

So what’s the implication of the fact that Republicans are refusing to grow up, the fact that they are still behaving the same way they did when history seemed to be on their side? I’d say that it’s good for Democrats, at least in the short run — but it’s bad for the country.

For now, the Obama administration gains a substantial advantage from the fact that it has no credible opposition, especially on economic policy, where the Republicans seem particularly clueless.

But as I said, the G.O.P. remains one of America’s great parties, and events could still put that party back in power. We can only hope that Republicans have moved on by the time that happens.

But here’s the thing: the G.O.P. looked as crazy 10 or 15 years ago as it does now. That didn’t stop Republicans from taking control of both Congress and the White House. And they could return to power if the Democrats stumble.

I think that's the important part. Not only are we more and more polarized these days, but we generally seem more susceptible to becoming polarized without thinking things through.

We just keep swinging from one majority to the other, without any glimpse of moderation or compromise. When the executive and legislative are aligned and unstoppable, we all lose regardless of which "side" we're rooting for. All of the worst legislation is passed under those circumstances.

Though it's technically to the letter, that lack of balance is not in the spirit of our system of government.

Maybe the Republicans were crazy 12 to 15 years ( opinion ) but if they were it proves just how self destructive the Democrats are in the face of control.

They lack leadership , as a rule, and tear at their party compatriots more than they look to "lead".

Krugmans POV doesnt exactly = reality.

That GOP, for whatever else, was organized, disciplined, had a plan and was filled with a lot more moderates.

The problem was that the Gringrich/Delay/Rove model they adapted existed only to govern. They really didnt stand for anything real. Thus, when they took power, there was no purpose to it other than an attempt to continue in power.
The Cheney cabal had purpose.... so it was easy to steer the rudderless tanker where they wanted it to go. And that was a very bad place.

The Dems of the Clinton era were too stuck in the 60s. Far too made up of indulgent boomers. They had too much Lanny Davis and Terry McAuliffe and not enough Rahm Emmanuel.

This incarnation of the Democrats is much leaner and meaner. More focused and alot younger.

Look at the campaigns. The Clinton campaign was full of infighting, conflict, big egos and drama. The Obama campaign was focused like a laser, had no leaks, had no drama, people performed without egos. The way these people conducted themselves in the campaign is now the way they are governing.

I can agree with that.

There was always the question of timing, and the Republicans have not been very astute at putting much else but their own priorities in place above all else.

The Cheney cabal had purpose.... so it was easy to steer the rudderless tanker where they wanted it to go. And that was a very bad place.

9/11 and what followed is a good case in point. W. Bush knew that we had to do something. Unfortunately he did not have a grasp on as to what that something should be. The public was scared and outraged and yet this was an act of war perpetrated by an entity removed from a tangible nation. It was more in the realm of "crime" than warfare. For W.Bush, at least he was smart enough to know that in reality it did not compute and he had a vacuum where good advice should be, but he was still stupid enough to trust Cheney, who knew that if he gave his boss the right amount of pillow talk, he could become disgustingly rich all the while portraying that he was acting in the best interest of the nation. It was LBJ all over again only it was GWAT (officially dropped as a campaign name. Beats me if I have to get all new medals now) instead of 'Nam.

Afterwords it was the tax cuts. I got 200 dollars. Big deal. It was such a paltry amount of money it makes no sense to save it so it did what it was designed to do: Be blown on stupid crap. Meanwhile the large corps got a break too, hoping that they would be making a windfall from the war effort in a manner that would trickle down to everyone else or perhaps go to beneficial efforts such as R & D. In a way it is the same idea as Obama's stimulus. Take a lot of money out of government and get it into the private sector hoping that the investment there would spread the wealth around and lead to an investment for tomorrow. Not the case though. The wars were primarily fought from a vantage point if you throw enough money at it the problems, they would magically get solved, and everyone got rich. Even if the problems didn't get solved, who cares. Everyone gets nice. It was all irresponsible reactionary thinking. Having been over there, I saw so much waste just because of all the hair-brained schemes that had no basis on logic but someone got rich from it so that's all that mattered. As usual though, there was seldom a budget left for mundane everyday things so you still have to beg borrow or steal. It was easier to do horse trading with KBR and PAE than get something through the command or dept, since they had anything you could ever think of.

So if the Republicans have a purpose, its to ride the wave and grab all the loot they can along the way. They know the ship is sinking, so why not cash out first because that is easier than fixing the problems? Making the problems worse actually is more profitable. If the pile of money had just the right volume to plug the hole in the hull, it wouldn't matter to these guys because it would have all been stuffed in their pockets instead of plugging the leak. So they probably don't lack in purpose and the ship is certainly not rudderless. They know what they are doing, but they lack anyone with integrety or even maturity to lead them. Its more like Lord of the Flies now than a political party, especially with Rush being their self proclaimed voice. The bully with the loudest mouth to keep all the rest of the kids in line.

The whole tea party movement is retarded. They are protesting a 3% tax hike on the top 1% basically.

The original tea party of 1773 was a protest against a tax break for the largest corporation.

Fortunately or unfortunately this movement is quickly being hijacked by the republicans much as Bin Laden has hijacked Islam. Once again we get to see the people most hurt by their policies come out in force in favor of them.

Well, the tea parties were not supposed to be about that at all. They were about Congress not representing us.

The Fox News crew is so desperately seeking relevancy that they co-opted them and have turned them into this superficial crap.

The tea parties were the product of Rick Santelli, a multi-millionaire former derivatives trader, and his rant against giving assistance to individual homeowners in mortgage trouble, it was never about congress. In reality the mortgage bailout would have cost taxpayers 0 dollars and would have brought a revenue stream to the banks and investors.

They were misguided from the beginning and simply attracted people who feel that they should have all this country has to offer given to them tax free without ever having offered to give anything back.

False. The beginning of this tea party movement did certainly not have anything do to with Santelli. It was this guy:

pKFKGrmsBDk

Don't be a pawn of Glen Beck and Fox News.

False. The beginning of this tea party movement did certainly not have anything do to with Santelli. It was this guy:

pKFKGrmsBDk

Don't be a pawn of Glen Beck and Fox News.


The tea party BS started with Santelli bitching on the floor of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, the original website was www.reteaparty.com and it was all about Santelli until CNBC threatened to sue the site owners. The guy you show was a production of Glenn Beck and Fox news.

Check the dates. You will clearly be surprised (by a large margin).

Maybe you were right at some point San. But it bears zero resemblance to that now.

It has been turned into a republican/anti-obama rally. Fox News has promoted the ever loving shit out of it, and is selling Merchandise for it. It is a farce. They have their anchors at them, Glenn Beck is using it to advance his 9 principles, 12 truths, 16 Rumors, 8 guesses and 25 thousand 600 minutes campaign. They have brought in country stars to perform their latest songs, all live, on the air. At least 15 GOP members of Congress are going to be speaking at the various events.
Cheap content... bought, promoted and then sold back to the viewer.
"This spontaneous moment of Rage, brought to you by Sprite!"

I tell you what San.. take a video camera to one near you. Ask people simply "Why are you here today". We can play a drinking game with it. Drink every time you hear socialism, drink every time you hear Birth Certificate, Drink every time you hear taxes.

By the way.. much of the funding for this is coming from FreedomWorks. Run by Dick Armey and Steve Forbes.
http://mediatransparency.org/recipientgrants.php?recipientID=395 THANKS EXXON MOBILE FOR DEFENDING THE LITTLE GUY!! RIGHT?

Don't forget to buy your TShirt!
http://usateapartystore.com/

This has nothing to do with grassroots, and everything to do with Astroturf (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Astroturf).

I wonder if they will invite this legal mastermind.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/14/us/14bar.html?_r=1&ref=fp6

Check the dates. You will clearly be surprised (by a large margin).

I understand there was an event with Ron Paul that was done on the anniversary of the Boston Tea Party, it was entirely symbolic and done by a group that we can actually call the "Real Deal". But this group is not that group, L2 has linked what I would have so no point in linking.

I have a strange "advantage" when it comes to these types of things. I can show up at one wearing an old shirt from a Marine Battalion and these morons flock to me spouting all kinds of ludicrous things. They make the retarded assumption that I agree with their point.

They are all a bunch of loud mouthed republican nuts, they all want some kind of ridiculous war, they are truly a bastion of racists, they are vehemently anti gay, overly religious, vote a straight republican ticket, think Sarah Palin is the greatest thing ever, want to fuck her and 99.5% of them have never served in the military yet they are quick to call for sending troops everywhere yet they feel they shouldn't have to pay any taxes.

Some speakers at these events will be Dick Armey, Newt, David Vitter, and a whole gaggle of sitting republicans...a group that is rhetorically against big government yet will walk all over the 1st, 4th and every other constitutional amendment they can...these guys are for the biggest government we can get...one on par with the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany.

Some speakers at these events will be ..... Newt


I still laugh every time I see Newt behaving like some pristine elder of the party who is in some manner relevant to today's politics.

The phony hypocrite wasted 106 million tax payer dollars to prove Clinton was cheating on his wife, only to have to eat crow when it was shown he was guilty of the same thing.

He is a joke.

Maybe you were right at some point San. But it bears zero resemblance to that now.

But this group is not that group, L2 has linked what I would have so no point in linking.

Right, that's what I said before: Co-opted by the Fox News crew at this point.

False. The beginning of this tea party movement did certainly not have anything do to with Santelli. It was this guy:

pKFKGrmsBDk

Don't be a pawn of Glen Beck and Fox News.

I'm glad Fox news doesn't have people like that on. He essentially has the same message as "insert talk radio personality here," but he says it in a way that isn't as insulting to our intelligence and throws in a few good points which makes it more convincing.

Fox News has good points sometimes too. Even a broken clock is right twice a day!

Yeah but that guy made his good points on purpose.

He must be a terrorist.

http://wonkette.com/407774/intra-teabagger-warfare-its-paultardsrandianstrutherssecesheslibertarians-vs-astroturfersgop-leadershiphannitittiesfat-catsgingrichianssantelliososfox-newsdicks-armey#more-407774

lollers

more lol

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=588834

Deleted...wrong thread.

" Nay, we shall not fall from our enemies. our down fall will come from the hands of our ignorant brethren."

(CNN) -- Happy Patriots' Day. April 15 is the one day a year when our country asks something of us -- or at least the vast majority of us.
For those who wear a military uniform, those who serve the rest of us as policemen and firefighters and teachers and other public servants, every day is patriots' day. They work hard for our country; many risk their lives -- and some lose their lives.

But for the rest of us, the civilian majority, our government asks very little. Except for April 15. On this day, our government asks that we pay our fair share of taxes to keep our beloved country strong and safe.

Freedom isn't free. That's what the courageous World War II veterans of the American Legion taught me back in Texas Boys State decades ago. That phrase had special meaning for them. Those guys had seen buddies blown apart at Anzio or Guadalcanal.
I grew up in a different era. There was no draft, and while I have friends and family members who joined the military, most of my peers, like me, opted for the security and prosperity of the private sector.

This country has showered me with the blessings of liberty. So what do I owe my country in return? Paying my fair share of taxes (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Income_Taxes), it seems, is the least I can do. Thanks to President Obama and the Democratic Congress, 95 percent of Americans will get a tax cut this year. No one -- not even the wealthiest 1 percent -- will have to pay higher income taxes until 2011.

So why are a bunch of Fox News clowns and right-wing cranks hosting "tea parties" all over the country? The Boston Tea Party, in case the clods at Fox didn't know it, protested "taxation without representation." Note the second word: without. The goofballs tossing tea bags today have representation. They voted in the election; they lost.
That a bunch of overpaid media millionaires would lead a faux-populist revolt is comical. They somehow held their populist instincts in check as George W. Bush (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/George_W_Bush) and the Republicans cut taxes on the idle rich and put the screws to the working stiffs.
Bush's tax policies were a godsend to the Paris Hilton class, but they sent the country on the road to bankruptcy and helped ruin the economy. But now that we the people have decided to set things right, now that we've hired Obama (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Barack_Obama) to fix the mess conservatives created, now they're protesting?

Give me a break. Instead of tossing tea bags for the cameras, the Fox phonies ought to go to Walter Reed Army Medical Center. There they would find better, braver men who have truly sacrificed for their country. They deserve nothing but the best -- not the shameful and shoddy conditions they endured during the Bush administration.

You want something to protest? How 'bout protesting how little we give back to our veterans? Or how 'bout protesting that the entire budget of the National Cancer Institute (where government researchers battle a disease that will strike half of all men and a third of all women) is 0.03 percent of what we gave the bandits at American International Group alone? Oh, but veterans benefits and cancer research might cost money.

It might require -- dare I say it? -- paying taxes.If the whiners at Fox News want to advertise their selfishness, they are free to do so. But please don't dress it up as patriotism. Patriotism is putting your country ahead of yourself -- which is the precise opposite of what the tea party plutocrats are doing.
The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Paul Begala.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/15/begala.taxes/index.html

Can I throw tea into the sea if I'm unhappy with our tax system or will you automatically , ignorantly, that I'm only doing so out of some sort of loyalty to Fox?

Can I throw tea into the sea if I'm unhappy with our tax system or will you automatically , ignorantly, that I'm only doing so out of some sort of loyalty to Fox?

Doesn't matter who you are doing it for, the Boston tea party wasn't about taxes being bad, it was about Taxation without representation. Did you get to vote in the last election?

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Paul Begala.

Paul Begala speaking out against the extremist portion of the Fox News crowd is about as representative of the real world as Die Hard 4 (just not as entertaining).

Doesn't matter who you are doing it for, the Boston tea party wasn't about taxes being bad, it was about Taxation without representation. Did you get to vote in the last election?

Your blind to the populace's unhappiness with the tax code. Sure the big hoopla was used by Fox and folks but just as guilty are those who are pretending this entire thing is only those mentioned earlier.

We do not have a say in the very corrupt tax code so hence the desire to make a statement.

Quit playing the role of sheep and assuming everything is one party or anothers game. Some of us are unhappy with the tax code because we're unhappy with the tax code ;P

Paul Begala speaking out against the extremist portion of the Fox News crowd is about as representative of the real world as Die Hard 4 (just not as entertaining).

It is an opinion column but the words could not be more true.

Your blind to the populace's unhappiness with the tax code. Sure the big hoopla was used by Fox and folks but just as guilty are those who are pretending this entire thing is only those mentioned earlier.

We do not have a say in the very corrupt tax code so hence the desire to make a statement.

Quit playing the role of sheep and assuming everything is one party or anothers game. Some of us are unhappy with the tax code because we're unhappy with the tax code ;P

Half the idiots protesting are getting tax cuts, and the other half are greedy wealthy people who cannot imagine paying a tiny bit more so people with less can pay a bit less.

Fuck em all I say. Throw as many tea bags as you want in the ocean, just don't wonder why we think you are nuts when you are standing next to the guy with the sign claiming Obama isn't American, and the other one claiming he is a socialist.

Half the idiots protesting are getting tax cuts, and the other half are greedy wealthy people who cannot imagine paying a tiny bit more so people with less can pay a bit less.

Fuck em all I say. Throw as many tea bags as you want in the ocean, just don't wonder why we think you are nuts when you are standing next to the guy with the sign claiming Obama isn't American, and the other one claiming he is a socialist.

I'm not as weak minded to think I have to worry what you think about me. The tax code is a fucking mess and most of the population agrees with it. I personally hope Obama succeeds though by in large he's ....meh ...so far.

I'm not as weak minded to think I have to worry what you think about me. The tax code is a fucking mess and most of the population agrees with it. I personally hope Obama succeeds though by in large he's ....meh ...so far.

Fandros... The people at those protests are all there for different reasons. The meaning of the original protest is diluted with crazies and nutjobs.

Defend them all you want, they are not protesting the tax code in general, just what they have been told by fox news is higher taxes for them, and tax breaks for jobless people and illegal immigrants. Those people are hopeless morons.

Speaking of... where's Osg today? Hmm...

Fandros... The people at those protests are all there for different reasons. The meaning of the original protest is diluted with crazies and nutjobs.

Defend them all you want, they are not protesting the tax code in general, just what they have been told by fox news is higher taxes for them, and tax breaks for jobless people and illegal immigrants. Those people are hopeless morons.

That's just it, I'm not defending them or the media's version of why and who's manipulating who. I've been dead set against our current income tax system longer than you've been an adult.

Demean the actual reasoning all you like , play the puppet for those lumping in everyone under one umbrella all you like the truth is there are many of us who find both sides actions in regards to this repulsive.

Don't generalize all of us merely because it suits your parties bullshit.

Doesn't matter who you are doing it for, the Boston tea party wasn't about taxes being bad, it was about Taxation without representation. Did you get to vote in the last election?


The Boston Tea Party of 1773 was actually a protest against corporate tax breaks. The British East India Company. They were getting a tax break on their product "tea" which allowed them to undercut the small "independent" tea importers/sellers.

In other words it is quite the opposite of what is being currently protested. The majority of those at these tea party events are there because they oppose a mortgage bailout and they just flat out don't want to pay federal taxes.

They certainly could not be protesting anything Obama has done tax wise because he has not done anything and if he did it would be to raise taxes on the top 1% which would still be less than was paid under Reagan.

Mostly the movement has been hijacked by the republicans and Fox news, it basically only plays to the base of the right as most people will just pay their taxes and move on.

Speaking of... where's Osg today? Hmm...


The Mall is busy on Wednesdays.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30227452

Even the President recognizes the tax code as being an issue.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30227452

Even the President recognizes the tax code as being an issue.

Who is even discussing the tax code? The protesters surely are not, and you keep using that in a thread regarding the protesters.

Because it's about the tax system you goof, not about the tea party. It's folks blinded by the media such as you have been that are garbling the message.

Dear Fandros:

He does, but probably not in the way that you envision :). As for the 'tea parties' themselves, Rover stated the essential issue well - these 'tea parties' are a front financed by the *beneficiaries* of our upside down tax policy of the past thirty years wherein we've had an orderly, systematic, and increasing transfer of resources from the poor to the wealthy in this country.

The tea parties themselves are being financed by Freedom Works, a right-wing organization funded by the Koch family, an oil billionaire business. Their agenda is to shrink government and cut taxes. They are not AGAINST Wall Street greed – they ARE Wall Street greed. They're exploiting public ire about the unfair burden they're being asked to carry via the bailout for the purpose of undermining reform of the tax code and regulation of capital shenanigans via a 'taxes are bad, mmkay?' rallying cry. In other words, it's 'Astroturf', fake activism, bought and paid for by those with something to gain - and there's plenty of evidence that's exactly what's happening reported on here:

http://savetherich.com/reports/tea-party-organizers-offer-cash-exchange-participation

While I have serious misgivings about how the bailout has been handled (we should have put the banks into receivership and cleaned them up instead of continuing to throw money down a bottemless maw), polls show that the overwhelming majority of Americans don't *want* a tax cut, and didn't ask for the last one - they want government to stabilize the economy. They just don't want to feel like they're handing their tax check to Wall Street executives.

As far as the tax code goes, the top 1% of taxpayers are paying 50% of what they did in 1955, so far from getting soaked, the billions that these individuals would have contributed to the system are being made up by those of lower means, or not being made up at all (e.g. crumbling infrastructure, deficits).

I don't know about you, but I want our whole financial system fundamentally and punitively (if necessary) reformed. If that means paring our banks down to something resembling the Canadian model in order to make them behave themselves, so be it. Separate banks and investment firms again. Reinstate Glass-Steagall or its equivalent. But you don't get something without paying for it, and the problem with the 'tea party' movement is that it is deliberately undermining attempts at reform by confounding the 'how' with the 'who'.

Regards,
Nydia

P.S. Some very good articles on the bailout and taxation from the Institute of Policy Studies here: http://www.ips-dc.org/

If you do a bit of reading the tea party effort wasn't started by Fox and friends. That's my point, the entire thing is being marginalized by the left so everyone sees the humor in it if it actually was.

Where's the pea, which tea cup is it under!!!

Their agenda is to shrink government and cut taxes.

Which is a damn good agenda, regardless of their ulterior motives. It's an agenda that resonates far beyond the extremist pockets that are being portrayed as representative of the whole.

I think the answer is a smarter, more efficient government that gives us more value for our tax dollar.

Smaller government isn't always the answer any more than government is always the answer.

The bottom line is we live in a world where 53% of the worlds wealth is controlled by 5% of the worlds population (us). Of that.. 60% of the wealth is controlled by 10%, 38% by the top 1% of that decile. The bottom 40% of Americans control 1% of the wealth.

Hey look... Say whatever you want.. but Bread and Circus is the only thing that sustains this. All of us are getting our moneys worth.

If we'd had a functioning SEC, Bernie Madoff wouldn't have been able to loot people out of 50 billion dollars of their life savings.

If we had a functioning FDA, people wouldn't be dying of salmonella poisoning because of peanut products produced under the most vile conditions imaginable.

If we had a functioning trade policy, we wouldn't have sold our entire manufacturing infrastructure down the river to the lowest bidder, leaving ourselves vulnerable to our imaginary bubble economy bursting.

If we had functioning land and water use policy and a functional EPA, we wouldn't have obscene rates of neural tube defects along the Gulf coast due to petrochemical pollution, and cities on the brink of (literal) collapse due to unsustainable pulldown of their aquifers.

I don't know about you, but I *want* government to keep my roads and buildings safe, our food from poisoning people, protect my savings and investments from unscrupulous looters, and maintain our air, water, and resource quality (not to mention invest *in* our country instead of dismantling it and selling it to the highest bidder). Our government isn't functioning poorly because it's government; it functions poorly because we've been hostage to three decades of administration working under the dogma that government is *intrinsically* bad (something many of them knew was untrue, but exploited the mantra because it served their unspoken, aka 'looting', ends) and that 'government should be reduced to the point that we can drown it in the bathtub'.

We've gone around on this a bunch of times, but if nothing else, this whole financial debacle is proof positive that *more* government intervention in these (in some cases no longer) private institutions and how they are functioning is needed, not less. As L2 said, it's a matter of *value* received for that investment that is the issue, not how much we are paying for.

I'm late for a meeting, but it's a shame to see this kind of FUD (the tea parties) being used to obfuscate and derail attempts at legitimate reform. I still think Obama is entirely too cozy in the sack with Wall Street, but that's a tangential issue...

Regards,
Nydia

Watching these "tea parties" they are more about being anti Obama than anything else.

News Person to tea bagger: Why are you here?

Tea bagger: Because Obama is a fascist

News: Why is he a fascist?

Tea bagger: Because he is

News: But why is he?

Tea bagger: Because he is

That went for almost every person interviewed save for the ones that called him a commie or a socialist.

The kickers were the We are A Christian Nation signs and the people screaming that Obama is a Muslim. Or the I voted for Sarah dont blame me signs.

So if we take the real libertarians which account for about 5% of the protesters it is probably realistic to say that 95% of the tea baggers are a mixture of just really moronic, Faux news koolade drinkers, bums who think living here should be free and sore loser republicans who don't comprehend when your ideas fail you lose elections.

More fail.


In Washington, D.C., protesters had planned to dump a million tea bags in Lafayette Square and even promised to put the bags on the tarps and clean up afterward. But their plans were thwarted after National Park Service officials said protesters didn't have the proper permit to dump the bags, NBC affiliate WRC TV reported.
"We have a million tea bags here, and we don't have a place to put them because it's not on our permit," said Rebecca Wales, lead organizer of D.C. Tea Party.
A D.C. think tank, the free market Competitive Enterprise Institute, said it would allow the dumping of the tea bags in its 12th floor conference room instead.

From what I understand Ron Paul supporters are quite pissed off at the republicans and Fox news for invading their space. I mean they are REALLY pissed.

Which is a damn good agenda, regardless of their ulterior motives. It's an agenda that resonates far beyond the extremist pockets that are being portrayed as representative of the whole.

Agreed. However, they keep stumbling when asked why now, and not during the last several years that saw our debt increase and government grow in it's intrusions into peoples' lives. Where was all this talk one year ago, or two?

This is just one more example of how so many have become sheep, to be led by the appropriate talking heads that represent your party, be it Limbaugh and Beck or Olbermann and Mathews.

Its not a political party, Byl. Its a cult.

It's a bunch of freeloaders who shout about socialism from the publicly funded socialist parks that allow them to host their protests.

I thought the democrats were freeloaders.. Is it not democrats who scream about entitlements and gov't programs.. now those are freeloaders if I have ever seen any. help help gov't please support me! help help!

Democrats tend to understand that in order to live in America it cant be free, they understand the need to pay taxes. Then there is the whole "Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country" thing that Democrats hold dear. Yes paying taxes is patriotic...it helps fund our freedom.

So go scream about the evils of our government funding...drive on our socialist roads, fly into our socialist airports, take your kids to play in our socialist parks, when things go bad call our socialist fire departments, police departments and ambulences, when we are attacked call upon our socialist funded military to hold the line...I can keep going...I think though you'll never get the point.

What have you done for this country? Besides bitch about Mexicans and point out how it is your feeling that President Obama has destroyed whatever possibility there would be for another Black Man to be President (your words almost verbatim). The answer is...nothing, that much I know.

ROFL... head? sand? Kool-aid? You crack me up.

Democrats tend to understand that in order to live in America it cant be free, they understand the need to pay taxes. Then there is the whole "Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country" thing that Democrats hold dear. Yes paying taxes is patriotic...it helps fund our freedom.

So go scream about the evils of our government funding...drive on our socialist roads, fly into our socialist airports, take your kids to play in our socialist parks, when things go bad call our socialist fire departments, police departments and ambulences, when we are attacked call upon our socialist funded military to hold the line...I can keep going...I think though you'll never get the point.

We had parks, fire departments, police, the military, roads, etc before there was ever an income tax in this country. If the individual income tax were abolished tomorrow, the government would still have 1990s level income to run on.

The government expects us to live within our means (and of course we should/must). Why can't they?

We had parks, fire departments, police, the military, roads, etc before there was ever an income tax in this country. If the individual income tax were abolished tomorrow, the government would still have 1990s level income to run on.

The government expects us to live within our means (and of course we should/must). Why can't they?

Yes there is a real and accurate comparison...1865 vs 2009 odd justification...kind of like Osg thinking he is on par with a revolutionary war patriot.

If we'd had a functioning SEC, Bernie Madoff wouldn't have been able to loot people out of 50 billion dollars of their life savings.

If we had a functioning FDA, people wouldn't be dying of salmonella poisoning because of peanut products produced under the most vile conditions imaginable.

If we had a functioning trade policy, we wouldn't have sold our entire manufacturing infrastructure down the river to the lowest bidder, leaving ourselves vulnerable to our imaginary bubble economy bursting.

If we had functioning land and water use policy and a functional EPA, we wouldn't have obscene rates of neural tube defects along the Gulf coast due to petrochemical pollution, and cities on the brink of (literal) collapse due to unsustainable pulldown of their aquifers.

I don't know about you, but I *want* government to keep my roads and buildings safe, our food from poisoning people, protect my savings and investments from unscrupulous looters, and maintain our air, water, and resource quality (not to mention invest *in* our country instead of dismantling it and selling it to the highest bidder). Our government isn't functioning poorly because it's government; it functions poorly because we've been hostage to three decades of administration working under the dogma that government is *intrinsically* bad (something many of them knew was untrue, but exploited the mantra because it served their unspoken, aka 'looting', ends) and that 'government should be reduced to the point that we can drown it in the bathtub'.

We've gone around on this a bunch of times, but if nothing else, this whole financial debacle is proof positive that *more* government intervention in these (in some cases no longer) private institutions and how they are functioning is needed, not less. As L2 said, it's a matter of *value* received for that investment that is the issue, not how much we are paying for.

Question is, does more government growth and funding necessarily accomplish those goals? To me, it appears that our bloated government has just provided yet another example of how inefficient any organization becomes when it's too large.

Throwing more money and bureaucracy at the problems is very likely to only exacerbate them further.

Question is, does more government growth and funding necessarily accomplish those goals? To me, it appears that our bloated government has just provided yet another example of how inefficient any organization becomes when it's too large.

Throwing more money and bureaucracy at the problems is very likely to only exacerbate them further.


It's common knowledge that the SEC issue was one of the Bush administration and the republican congress pretty much allowing the SEC to ignore the rules that were left after the repeal of the depression era regulations. It was not a case of throwing money at a problem and getting nothing.

The FDA has privatized and allowed self policing for much of the inspections, supposedly to save money and as I'm sure you are aware their funding has been massively cut once again by a republican congress.

We need, as L2 stated and as the American people, by an overwhelming majority voted for, efficient government.

Bottom line is the Tea Party movement is one of mostly sore losing Obama haters and very few real libertarians and number wise they don't amount to even 1/10th of 1 percent of the population.

If the government were lean and run tight, none of that could've been buried under mountains of bureaucracy and red tape.

Why so cynical about private companies "too big to fail", wanting them broken up into manageable pieces, yet happy enough to watch the government continue growing (even though it already eclipses all of these financial companies)?

Maybe when the country finds some ethics, the government can become smaller and less of an example of intrusive leadership. In the mean time, as long as people feel its OK to do whatever it is their best interest as individuals while feecing a vast majority of citizens then don't expect much change. More babies require more sitters and the manner which some of these overpaid crooks conduct their business seems more along the lines of spoiled brats than responsible leaders of business. Maybe another cliche? Like putting the mice in charge of guarding the cheese? The fox in charge of the hen house?? That's what the past administration felt was good practice. The current one can't easily undo it either. It's a case of "You broke it. Now fix it".

Ultimately it comes down to who you want robbing you? A government or some shitbird on Wall Street? At least I can probably feel a bit more confident that some people in government are actually looking out for the best interests of the country and those that can't manage it alone. People ultimately want hot showers, cold beer and reassurance that the current crisis will pass, which is mostly a crisis of confidence. The Republicans really, really blew it. They had their chance the past 8 years and they made some wrong assumptions and now there is little faith in government OR private enterprise. To compound it they have continued their blunders by not offering anything constructive since. For fucks sake, Rush Limbaugh runs the GOP now. That speaks volumes right there. At least McCain had a track record of service and being a decent American, trying to offer something in return. Rush is just milking a dying cow.

Not sure if you're replying to me or generally. If to me, keep in mind I'm not making an argument for anarchy. I've been saying that undoing Glass-Steagall was a big mistake, since before this got really bad.

At what point did we completely give in to the assumption that government must be massive to be effective?

It doesn't need to be massive, but you can't have *FOUR* FDA inspectors serving the entire livestock processing industry (which is what it got pared down to during the Bush administration), either. Industries don't regulate themselves (we've seen the evidence in spades), roads and buildings don't build themselves, air, water, weather, and natural resources health and monitoring doesn't happen by itself, Social Security claims and checks don't get processed and distribute themselves, ditto for our infectious disease monitoring and flu shots, and our diplomatic relations don't happen by osmosis. *All* of these areas of government have been systematically defunded to the point of collapse, and then we wonder why they don't function? And let's not even talk about what's happened with Education and Health and Human Services, which have had 'kick me' signs pasted on them for decades...

Under Reagan, and then under Bush 2, the size of government not only mushroomed, but we got abysmal value on our investment; we threw money down a hole on the military-industrial complex, producing exorbitant weapons systems we didn't need , (and diverting FIFTY percent of the CDC's budget to bioterrorism, deciding that all other public health needs could get by on the rest), and contracting out services for several times the cost it would have been to do them in-house, while dismantling the services and protections that *actually* safeguarded America's health and prosperity - all in the name of carte blanche, and profit, for the few. It was systematic looting, plain and simple, and to blame it relentlessly on 'taxes' or 'government' is in a way blaming the victim - the victims in this case being the folks serving in civil government actually trying to do their jobs in the face of strangled budgets and undermining from the top (see: putting ideological and corporate shills at the heads of major agencies).

But the most lingeringly harmful thing that the cynically co-opted 'conservative' movement did was to sever the links between citizenry and their (our) government by tarring government, and those in civil service, as being the enemy, as 'not us', as something that was the cause of all evils (even when the opposite was plainly true, and that it was the *absence* of effective government that was undermining the American way of life in specific ways). By doing so they killed any possibility of meaningful dialogue and that whole 'petitioning the government for redress' thing, provided a smokescreen for their activities, and under the guise of 'smaller government and lower taxes', helped themselves not only to a larger piece of the pie but *made the American pie smaller*.

Government isn't the enemy. Government is *us*. That's one of the things I actually admire about the Ron Paul supporters even as I shake my head at some of their ludicrous and completely untenable-in-the-modern age ideas. It *is* us. We have to not only engage it, we have to wrest it back from the hands of the ideologues who made it a dirty word so that we would turn away while they sodomized and performed atrocities on it. We have to make 'working for the government' something other than a smear, as it was to my father, and to give meaning back to what being in public service means.

I wish Obama didn't come across as so dirty with regard to his own financial insider bedmates, because I think his message that we need to *really* take government back into our own hands, instead of merely go after it with torches and pitchforks as the architects of its destruction laugh all the way to the bank, is a vitally important one.

Regards,
Nydia

Someone got bitch slapped!

Interesting chart that is really neither here nor there:

http://chartingtheeconomy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/book12_11836_image002.gif

That has about the same meaning as the pirate chart.

It doesn't need to be massive, but you can't have *FOUR* FDA inspectors serving the entire livestock processing industry (which is what it got pared down to during the Bush administration), either. Industries don't regulate themselves (we've seen the evidence in spades), roads and buildings don't build themselves, air, water, weather, and natural resources health and monitoring doesn't happen by itself, Social Security claims and checks don't get processed and distribute themselves, ditto for our infectious disease monitoring and flu shots, and our diplomatic relations don't happen by osmosis. *All* of these areas of government have been systematically defunded to the point of collapse, and then we wonder why they don't function? And let's not even talk about what's happened with Education and Health and Human Services, which have had 'kick me' signs pasted on them for decades...

Under Reagan, and then under Bush 2, the size of government not only mushroomed, but we got abysmal value on our investment; we threw money down a hole on the military-industrial complex, producing exorbitant weapons systems we didn't need , (and diverting FIFTY percent of the CDC's budget to bioterrorism, deciding that all other public health needs could get by on the rest), and contracting out services for several times the cost it would have been to do them in-house, while dismantling the services and protections that *actually* safeguarded America's health and prosperity - all in the name of carte blanche, and profit, for the few. It was systematic looting, plain and simple, and to blame it relentlessly on 'taxes' or 'government' is in a way blaming the victim - the victims in this case being the folks serving in civil government actually trying to do their jobs in the face of strangled budgets and undermining from the top (see: putting ideological and corporate shills at the heads of major agencies).

But the most lingeringly harmful thing that the cynically co-opted 'conservative' movement did was to sever the links between citizenry and their (our) government by tarring government, and those in civil service, as being the enemy, as 'not us', as something that was the cause of all evils (even when the opposite was plainly true, and that it was the *absence* of effective government that was undermining the American way of life in specific ways). By doing so they killed any possibility of meaningful dialogue and that whole 'petitioning the government for redress' thing, provided a smokescreen for their activities, and under the guise of 'smaller government and lower taxes', helped themselves not only to a larger piece of the pie but *made the American pie smaller*.

Government isn't the enemy. Government is *us*. That's one of the things I actually admire about the Ron Paul supporters even as I shake my head at some of their ludicrous and completely untenable-in-the-modern age ideas. It *is* us. We have to not only engage it, we have to wrest it back from the hands of the ideologues who made it a dirty word so that we would turn away while they sodomized and performed atrocities on it. We have to make 'working for the government' something other than a smear, as it was to my father, and to give meaning back to what being in public service means.

I wish Obama didn't come across as so dirty with regard to his own financial insider bedmates, because I think his message that we need to *really* take government back into our own hands, instead of merely go after it with torches and pitchforks as the architects of its destruction laugh all the way to the bank, is a vitally important one.

You're speaking to a point that I'm not making. Our government could shrink dramatically, while still providing adequate funding and manpower to shore up the areas where it actually is lacking.

Federal Department of Education? Absurd failure. Get rid of it. Put that money back in the hands of the states and stop paying for an extra level of red tape that continues to fail us anyway.

Tossing more warm bodies and trillions of dollars into the existing paradigm guarantees more of the same, at a higher cost and even greater management inefficiency.

Agreed. Care to give that broken down in a meaningful form, say, showing what the funds were spent *on*? :)

Mostly hookers and cocaine, I'd guess. Oh, and some big guns to kill people that pose no threat to anyone.

You're speaking to a point that I'm not making. Our government could shrink dramatically, while still providing adequate funding and manpower to shore up the areas where it actually is lacking.

Federal Department of Education? Absurd failure. Get rid of it. Put that money back in the hands of the states and stop paying for an extra level of red tape that continues to fail us anyway.

Tossing more warm bodies and trillions of dollars into the existing paradigm guarantees more of the same, at a higher cost and even greater management inefficiency.

Mostly because the person placed in charge of it was someone who was anti public education and NCLB has not been anything but a complete failure.

You're speaking to a point that I'm not making. Our government could shrink dramatically, while still providing adequate funding and manpower to shore up the areas where it actually is lacking.

Sounds great. The money has to come from somewhere. How about the defense budget? The EU has no official standing army, and yet has mountains of money to invest in their futures. Probably because we do all their defense spending for them so they don't have to.

Federal Department of Education? Absurd failure. Get rid of it. Put that money back in the hands of the states and stop paying for an extra level of red tape that continues to fail us anyway.

Who is going to set the standards then? Some states, like West Virgina or Mississippi might as well just close all their schools for good. They would never make it otherwise. If those States get Federal money, the Feds would have a right to say how it gets spent.

Agreed. Care to give that broken down in a meaningful form, say, showing what the funds were spent *on*? :)

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/attachments/general/106874d1239850977-republicans-still-national-party-wallstatsdatlarge.jpg

Who is going to set the standards then? Some states, like West Virgina or Mississippi might as well just close all their schools for good. They would never make it otherwise. If those States get Federal money, the Feds would have a right to say how it gets spent.

Let states and communities set standards, as they did before the Federal DoE existed. You know, back when our education system was envied worldwide.

West Virginia and Mississippi rightfully make themselves the ass of a lot of jokes, but they're not going to abandon education. It's not as if they built their first schools in 1980.

Who do you think cares more about the education of West Virgina's children? Someone in DC who views West Virginia cynically to begin with, or the people there who depend on that child to be their future?

Let states and communities set standards, as they did before the Federal DoE existed. You know, back when our education system was envied worldwide.


Is education even considered to be all that important?

Heck, at work a slang of the Seabee motto is "Build and Fight, not Read and Write".

Compared to the rest of the developed world, we are exceptionally uneducated. And what is to stop States from setting their own cirriculums? I could see Bible Belt states teaching Creationism over Evolution. Getting rid of national standards will only serve to polarize the nation even further and make us look even more like a bunch of laughing stocks. Science offends all the religious douschebags. Some schools teach shit like Ebonics. Many are just appeasing students to keep from being shot or sued. Sex education? Forget it. That money gets spent on the daycare for all those highschool aged moms. At this point if we are going that route, abolish public education completely and give me my tax money back to send kids to private schools. If their brains are going to be fed shit, I want to at least pick the vendor of it. Either that or let all the professional sports teams subsidize education, since sports programs trump learning any day in the US.

/rant off.

Compared to the rest of the developed world, we are exceptionally uneducated. And what is to stop States from setting their own cirriculums? I could see Bible Belt states teaching Creationism over Evolution. Getting rid of national standards will only serve to polarize the nation even further and make us look even more like a bunch of laughing stocks. Science offends all the religious douschebags. Some schools teach shit like Ebonics. Many are just appeasing students to keep from being shot or sued. Sex education? Forget it. That money gets spent on the daycare for all those highschool aged moms. At this point if we are going that route, abolish public education completely and give me my tax money back to send kids to private schools. If their brains are going to be fed shit, I want to at least pick the vendor of it. Either that or let all the professional sports teams subsidize education, since sports programs trump learning any day in the US.

You're right that we're poorly educated (on average). We don't even rank in the top 25 for reading, math, and science. I'm not sure when the last time we did was.

States have been getting federal funds for teaching abstinence only sex-ed for years. About half of the states have rejected that money to teach more effective curriculum instead.

These decisions should be up to the states and communities. As long as we're throwing money at a problem, better to throw the money as close to the problem as possible.

States have been getting federal funds for teaching abstinence only sex-ed for years.

Which is what happens when religious ideologues are allowed to control things like education.

States have been getting federal funds for teaching abstinence only sex-ed for years. About half of the states have rejected that money to teach more effective curriculum instead.

Which can be fixed without simply getting rid of the DoE. I'd need to hear a better argument other than big government=bad small government=good to agree with doing so.

I dunno about West Virginia, but I sure as shit wouldn't trust people here in Florida with full control of school curriculum.

For my tax dollars, I'd rather ask what justifies its existence (and ~65 billion budget). How did we manage to get by without it, pre-1980?

Which are 2 very different questions.

LOL...watch this Tea Party (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkOwsIIIe5I)...so it really was about pissed off sore losers...

San, would be interesting to see the chart you posted imposed with a population chart.

Qustion bieng, has government growth out paced population growth? or is there an dependant correlation?

think about it. more and more people = greater need for less government?

Here is a good video from Denver's rally... State Patrol estimated the size at 5k - 7k. Pretty impressive for a bunch of fiscal conservatives who actually work for a living. We are not good a protesting. We work. Unlike the liberal "payed to be offended" college crowd the left incites...

Sorry I 'd don't know how to imbed video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpb6gisq06g&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.koaradio.com%2Fpages%2Fgunny bob.html&feature=player_embedded

Here is a good video from Denver's rally... State Patrol estimated the size at 5k - 7k. Pretty impressive for a bunch of fiscal conservatives who actually work for a living. We are not good a protesting. We work. Unlike the liberal "payed to be offended" college crowd the left incites...

Sorry I 'd don't know how to imbed video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpb6gisq06g&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.koaradio.com%2Fpages%2Fgunny bob.html&feature=player_embedded

Hey Mr. high class wealthy working Republican... It is spelled "paid"

Really?

You don't like Osg, we get it, you're being obnoxious.

Hey Mr. high class wealthy working Republican... It is spelled "paid"


Oops sorry. I misspelled one word. So sorry. I guess I was wrong your place as the local jihadist was incorrect of me. I should have placed you in the realm of Halo and L2 due to the fact your intelligence far exceeds most mortal men. I bow down to far superior intellect and bomb making abilities. Can you ever for give me, Douchey?

Hey Mr. high class wealthy working Republican... It is spelled "paid"

Really? Going after such after your own mistakes? Nice!!!!

Really? Going after such after your own mistakes? Nice!!!!

Sorry I cannot read, I am a jobless liberal with no education apparently!

Osg I am going to the July 4 th teaparty in my area and with a few friends we will spend the whole day chanting and cussing out the losers with "get a job" & "traitors, love it or leave" as well as "USA" chants while wearing a full set of Obama gear!

Will the signs you hold read "Your a bunch of traitors!" ?

Sorry I cannot read, I am a jobless liberal with no education apparently!

Osg I am going to the July 4 th teaparty in my area and with a few friends we will spend the whole day chanting and cussing out the losers with "get a job" & "traitors, love it or leave" as well as "USA" chants while wearing a full set of Obama gear!

You continually make the ignorant mistake of lumping all of them in one tea cup. Assuming they are all there for the same reasons.

Amazing really coming from a party of liberals well known for their diversity. Really you are more of a republican with your perceived notion that everyone has to fit in a camp than you do democrat.

Halo and L2 due to the fact your intelligence far exceeds most mortal men.

Its not that im that sarmt... Its just next to you, Im fucking Kierkegaard

Jedd...I wouldn't worry about the Tea Parties. Nationwide there was only about 35000 people that actually protested, most protests consisted of around 75-100 people, and the whole anti-Obama and other wing nut stuff, the white supremacists, fundamental christians and Fox news promotions ended up turning off millions of independents and moderate republicans. Oh and the Texas thing pretty much guaranteed that Texas will probably elect a Democrat governor in the upcoming election.

So all in all from the name "Tea Baggers" right down to the whole hijacking of the concept by the republicans it turned out to be a failure of epic proportions.

Wanna bet that the Democrats , once again, will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory? Maybe not the next election but the one after that?

Wanna bet that the Democrats , once again, will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory? Maybe not the next election but the one after that?


No because I don't feel like handing you money :D

In all realistics terms..

Republicans lose more ground in 2010 and 2012. They start gaining back in 2014 and will probably win back the White House in 2016 and we will be back to a even tilt by 2020.

Understand... this election was a massive realignment.

There are a few things that are bothersome about Obama with me. I think if people are looking for bitching points they need to get off of the ridiculous stuff like Osg posts and look at some potentially valid points.

The Whitehouse and Fed are seemingly married to the Goldman Sachs crowd.

The whole we might need to restrict gun ownership because Mexico is out of control.

We see written proof that the Bush administration advocated torture of prisoners and that numerous times they broke the law and he is seemingly going to let it go. That is politicizing the law and wrong.


Other than that I think he has some very positive things happening that I am very much in support of.

Rover, your first two points are valid.

However, on the third, what would you have him do? Drag all of the previous Administration before Congress for a 'head on a pike' session?

How would that fit in with the mantra of 'Change'?

Rover, your first two points are valid.

However, on the third, what would you have him do? Drag all of the previous Administration before Congress for a 'head on a pike' session?

How would that fit in with the mantra of 'Change'?

Accountability = Change

Its not that im that sarmt... Its just next to you, Im fucking Kierkegaard


Yes oh obviously. I feel so humbled by you.../snicker.


And Jedd I can certainly see why you make such a good little democrat... Intolerance and emotional outbursts of personal attacks when confronted with opposing belief systems. Bravo.. Bravo indeed. George Soros, Al Gore, and the the great one Barack Obama himself must certainly be so very proud of you. My hats off to you sir.

Rover, your first two points are valid.

However, on the third, what would you have him do? Drag all of the previous Administration before Congress for a 'head on a pike' session?

How would that fit in with the mantra of 'Change'?

No, I don't think they have to drag everyone in, but I think taking a serious look at Cheney and Gonzalez would be a start. I do agree with Jedd on the accountability is change.

My assumption (and I hate assuming) would be the larger gatherings were the ones where Fox News had a presence, as folks inclined to protest also seem inclined to like seeing themselves on camera, from my admittedly limited knowledge.

This might have been a legitimate form of protest with a focus on a specific goal, but it was co-opted by the talking heads who needed something to keep themselves relevant; it is unfortunate that the sheep are so lacking in the ability to select their shepherd. :rolleyes:

For reference, this is an email I got from the Campaign for Liberty:

Once again, Americans are turning to the calendars and dreading the coming of April 15th. This year, the federal government will reach into our pockets to pay for their unnecessary corporate bailouts, the so-called stimulus, and an escalation of unconstitutional wars overseas. But even with all this dangerous recklessness, we can have hope in knowing that each day our coalition of freedom-loving individuals grows by leaps and bounds.

In "honor" of April 15th, allow me to share with you excerpts from an article on taxes written by Ron Paul. It's called The Case Against the Income Tax.

Could America exist without an income tax? The idea seems radical, yet in truth America did just fine without a federal income tax for the first 126 years of its history. Prior to 1913, the government operated with revenues raised through tariffs, excise taxes, and property taxes, without ever touching a worker's paycheck....

The harmful effects of the income tax are obvious. First and foremost, it has enabled government to expand far beyond its proper constitutional limits, regulating virtually every aspect of our lives. It has given government a claim on our lives and work, destroying our privacy in the process. It takes billions of dollars out of the legitimate private economy, with most Americans giving more than a third of everything they make to the federal government. This economic drain destroys jobs and penalizes productive behavior. The ridiculous complexity of the tax laws makes compliance a nightmare for both individuals and businesses....

Is it impossible to end the income tax? I don't believe so. In fact, I believe a serious groundswell movement of disaffected taxpayers is growing in this country. Millions of Americans are fed up with the current tax system, and they will bring pressure on Congress....

And this pressure is building! Thousands of tea parties and protests will take place tomorrow in opposition to the dangerous policies being pursued by the federal government. If you are attending any of these activities, I encourage you to distribute our educational and action-oriented handouts to fellow citizens also disaffected with the current economic situation. Additionally, be sure to read some very helpful advice for effective grassroots activity at these events from our very own Adam de Angeli here.

It is critical to make those attending the tea parties aware of the culprit behind our country's economic woes - the Federal Reserve. While the elimination of the income tax is a noble and necessary goal, we must understand that our efforts will be in vain if we do not deal with the silent, destructive tax of monetary inflation. Dr. Paul's bill, HR 1207, requires a legitimate audit of the Federal Reserve System. Please sign our petition here to urge your congressman to co-sponsor the Federal Reserve Transparency Act.

Rest assured, with your continued efforts, we are building a coordinated grassroots-oriented network that is becoming more and more effective in standing up for freedom, individual liberty, and the Constitution as envisioned by our Founding Fathers. Together, we will accomplish the goal of making April 15th just another day on the calendar.

Fox may have perverted a large portion of it into an anti-Obama rally, but we should look past that to the meat of the issues. Otherwise, are we any better than Fox News itself?

The tea party movement was what it became... A hatefest for nuts and crazies.

If they said it on CNN, it must be true!

That doesn't apply... I drove down to Santa Monica for lunch and saw those nutters on Wednesday. You and Fandros both just are not grasping where I am coming from.

Sure there were much better reasons for the initial tea party protests, but they were overrun and the entire message was diluted. Bottom line... Tea Partying will now forever be seen as a bunch of crazy radical right wingers talking shit about the president of the united states and making themselves look like the complete idiots they are.

Judging a group by its extremists? Sort of like how all Muslims are terrorists, right?

Judging a group by its extremists? Sort of like how all Muslims are terrorists, right?

You noticed I said "Radical right wingers"

And from what I have seen, the tea parties with the highest amount of people attending were usually also the ones with the most crazies and nutjobs... Sounds like a majority to me.

So what is it when democrats protest and hold rallies?

So what is it when democrats protest and hold rallies?


Democracy in action! :D

First of all the current tea party wave was started by a multi-millionaire derivatives trader turned CNBC wonk. He stands for everything that created the economic crisis and stands against everything that most working people are really about. His whole rant about the mortgage assistance program was pure bullshit, it will cost the taxpayers a big 0...nothing.

Then you add in the republican politicians and that makes it even worse as they are arguably as much or more responsible for the economy issues than the dems. They are basically destroying the whole Ron Paul grass roots thing and it is really in their best interest to do so.

Then throw in Fox News which is indisputably the republican propaganda machine (I mean come on Roger Ailes runs it) and they start cheering on the republican politicians who have become the loudest voices of the "Tea Baggers". Curiously the only network to interview Ron Paul during the day was MSNBC Rachel Maddow, Fox made sure that he got no air time...again it's that self interest thing. I might add that of the politicians who took part in this Ron Paul is the only one who is the real deal and from his interview he is very aware how he's being kept in check by the republicans.

Then throw in the whacky christians and the white supremecists, Dick armey, Gingrich who were very vocal at these events and you have a huge failure as any moderates or real conservatives and genuine libertrians start to distance themselves and you are left with a major failure and a bunch of loud mouthed completely mis-informed group of the eternally duped.

As a side note, oddly enough the 10 states that pay the most in tax revenue and take the least in government aid are the "North East Liberal Elite States" with NJ being number one on the list. The states that pay in the least and take the most federal funding, 8 out of the 10 are red republican bastions. So basically the NE Liberal Elitists are taking our money is way off...the republican anti education and secessionist crowd are actually the ones with their hands in the till.

Fox had nothing to do with my support of the effort to raise social conciousness over the fucked up tax system.

Jedd, you are guilty as hell of painting in broad black and white strokes. Something you whimpered about when Fox and such have been guilty of in the past.

Really, quit making such generalizations bitte...or just continue and be part of the problem. I think you'll chose the latter.

Fox had nothing to do with my support of the effort to raise social conciousness over the fucked up tax system.


I agree in your case and Sanchek. However, Fox was promoting these and touting the republican politicians who were going to speak at these.

The whole grass roots effort has been hijacked I think that is clear. You basically had numerous politicians who were blatantly responsible for the condition of our economy screaming into microphones to people who are actually getting a reduction in their taxes about how Obama was on a spending spree. That is just not true.

Democracy in action! :D


LOL yes of course it is...

First of all the current tea party wave was started by a multi-millionaire derivatives trader turned CNBC wonk. He stands for everything that created the economic crisis and stands against everything that most working people are really about. His whole rant about the mortgage assistance program was pure bullshit, it will cost the taxpayers a big 0...nothing.

Then you add in the republican politicians and that makes it even worse as they are arguably as much or more responsible for the economy issues than the dems. They are basically destroying the whole Ron Paul grass roots thing and it is really in their best interest to do so.

Then throw in Fox News which is indisputably the republican propaganda machine (I mean come on Roger Ailes runs it) and they start cheering on the republican politicians who have become the loudest voices of the "Tea Baggers". Curiously the only network to interview Ron Paul during the day was MSNBC Rachel Maddow, Fox made sure that he got no air time...again it's that self interest thing. I might add that of the politicians who took part in this Ron Paul is the only one who is the real deal and from his interview he is very aware how he's being kept in check by the republicans.

Then throw in the whacky christians and the white supremecists, Dick armey, Gingrich who were very vocal at these events and you have a huge failure as any moderates or real conservatives and genuine libertrians start to distance themselves and you are left with a major failure and a bunch of loud mouthed completely mis-informed group of the eternally duped.

As a side note, oddly enough the 10 states that pay the most in tax revenue and take the least in government aid are the "North East Liberal Elite States" with NJ being number one on the list. The states that pay in the least and take the most federal funding, 8 out of the 10 are red republican bastions. So basically the NE Liberal Elitists are taking our money is way off...the republican anti education and secessionist crowd are actually the ones with their hands in the till.

And tell me George Soros doesn't support and fund rallies and democratic organizations.

And tell me George Soros doesn't support and fund rallies and democratic organizations.


Oh he definately does and he's as dirty as any other power broker. It's one of the reasons I find the Democratic revolting.

Soros probably bankrolls 1 thing for every 500 things you kooks accuse him of.

He committed 40 million dollars in the 2003 - 2004 campaign season to various groups. Alot of this was start up money for entrenched groups. MoveOn, Media Matters, CAP. Its beyond easy to follow his money.. he doesn't hide it.

But he also bankrolled the Orange Revolution in Georgia.

Additionally.. I saw an interview with Kos from DailyKos. He was talking about why he HATES protests and discourages people from getting involved... They bring out the wack jobs the crazies, the attention whores and generally people who are not helpful. You may have good points, and be ready for intelligent debate and be sincere in your protest.. but fuck you, you ain't news.. lets film and talk to the guy in the pig outfit, or the most wild and outlandish thing we can find.

The right showed with the Tea Parties that it is exactly like the left. There are reasonable, thoughtful people then there is the "Bush/Obama = Hitler" crowd.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=Obama%20hitler&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&um=1&sa=1&q=bush+hitler&btnG=Search+Images&aq=f&oq=

Most of America looks at these protesters, on both sides and says. "Wow.. what a bunch of assholes." Conservatism did itself no favors by throwing off whatever vestige of the "adult" mantle it built its power on and instead becoming no better than "Code Pink". The right made a cottage industry and vote machine by contrasting itself with what it is now becoming.

Grats.

Oh he definately does and he's as dirty as any other power broker. It's one of the reasons I find the Democratic revolting.


and this doesn't bother you? The fact that on the "full of shit meter" the republican party is way ahead. The whole look at those NE Liberal elitists crap.


As a side note, oddly enough the 10 states that pay the most in tax revenue and take the least in government aid are the "North East Liberal Elite States" with NJ being number one on the list. The states that pay in the least and take the most federal funding, 8 out of the 10 are red republican bastions. So basically the NE Liberal Elitists are taking our money is way off...the republican anti education and secessionist crowd are actually the ones with their hands in the till.

Wow L2...how did you do that post x2? ..strange very strange!

It was caused by his divine intelligence.

Maybe you can explain something to me Osg...

Why is 3 months of Obama, a single stimulus package, and a budget proposal tyranny...

but this. (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2006/07/suskind_again.html)

Cassel: If the president deems that he's got to torture somebody, including by crushing the testicles of the person's child, there is no law that can stop him?

Yoo: No treaty

Cassel: Also no law by Congress -- that is what you wrote in the August 2002 memo...

Yoo: I think it depends on why the President thinks he needs to do that..."

Was Okay and hunky-dory? Wtf?

Do you see why nobody takes you guys seriously anymore?

Nobody? 47% of America takes us serious.. Thanks.

I'm surprised no one is talking about the DHS report and how some people are taking it as an attack on them. My brother of all people is believing the bull that DHS thinks he's a Right Wing Extremist b/c he went to a tea party with barely 300 people present.

You mean like the FBI keeping tabs on people that attended peace rallies?

Gosh I remember some people telling them that if you weren't hiding anything you had nothing to complain about ...

I wouldn't care if they had my name /shrug

I'm surprised no one is talking about the DHS report and how some people are taking it as an attack on them. My brother of all people is believing the bull that DHS thinks he's a Right Wing Extremist b/c he went to a tea party with barely 300 people present.


Because it's not an attack on anyone in particular veterans.

You'll justify anything.

You'll justify anything.


No, saying that right wing groups based in hate have shown the possibility that these groups might target returning veterans in a drive to add people with both military and combat experience in order for them to become more effective in a possible campaign of terror is not a statement that disrespects veterans in any way, shape or form.

I would feel the same way if any group was targeting veterans in a drive to expand their influence by force.

I know full well that these groups do it, I've been approached before, I think I said it in an earlier post.

I think what DHS missed is that the majority of combat veterans grow into a more liberal thinking person once they separate from their service branch.

At some point, did it become illegal to be a "Right Wing Extremist"?

At some point, did it become illegal to be a "Right Wing Extremist"?


No, but neither is it to be a left wing one. But the acts of both can at times be illegal whether it is blowing up a building because you don't like the right of a woman to choose or because you think that building is damaging the environment.

So we should act on the whims of pre-crime suspicions now?

Why stop now?

So we should act on the whims of pre-crime suspicions now?


I dont know...you tell me...I think I was clear on this during the Bush years when anyone who wasn't republican was under suspicion.

So, you think Bush was right and we should continue that type of thinking?

The footnote part was stupid.... but..

As far as the Veterans... its not like the DHS guys were sitting around saying "HEYYY, you know what MIGHT happen...." What they are talking about with the veterans is what they are pulling off the Neo Nazi websites.

Here

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=592394

In this thread they are ACTIVELY promoting aggressively recruiting vets. And Stormfront is one of the least radical and most mainstream extremist sites...

Here

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=592394

In this thread they are ACTIVELY promoting aggressively recruiting vets. And Stormfront is one of the least radical and most mainstream extremist sites...


If anyone has any question as to why our country is going downhill, simply reading a page from this link will answer it.

And here I was wanting to blame Bush and Cheney.......:(

So, you think Bush was right and we should continue that type of thinking?


I dont know...you tell me. I said I was pretty adament about my opposition to Bush Cheney and their undoing of the 1st and 4th amendments so that should answer how I feel. What is your opinion on this whole thing? You've only asked questions...I'm betting it is one I already know.

If you don't know where I stand on that, you must be new here.

So, if you don't agree with those policies, why would you use them as justification for this continuing bs?

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=592394



And people say...Wow...you're a very liberal minded person and you belive in gun ownership. And now we know why I do.

If you don't know where I stand on that, you must be new here.

So, if you don't agree with those policies, why would you use them as justification for this continuing bs?


I didn't use them as justification. I said this: The extreme right wing groups DO actively look for military veterans in particular combat veterans to join their groups, I say this based on my own experience of being approached...one can simply say no to them.

The other bothersome thing is that the republicans, main stream ones, are actively attempting to spin things saying that Obama and his DHS people are actively looking at veterans as terrorists. We know that to be not true...the report says nothing of the sort.

And yes I do know how you feel based mostly on your posts during Bush...you believe much as I do that targeting someone as a criminal because they believe something or have an ideology that might conflict with the government line is way way a bad thing for a government to do.

However I don't think there is anything wrong with an FBI agent or Cop reading a publicly accessed message board. If you dont want someone to hear it or read it...don't say it in public and dont publish it in a public forum.

Going back to an older part of this thread...my friend Bob Cesca points out some interesting things.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/the-tortured-logic-of-pro_b_190342.html


An excert from his post:

Without explanation or logic, and following months of screeching about tea parties and tyranny and big government, the usual suspects on the right appear to be demanding that the government retain the power to do anything -- anything! -- in order to protect us from a terrorist attack. This, naturally, includes torture, but from what I'm hearing, there's no limit to what they'd allow. Whatever it takes, right? As FOX & Friends' Brian Kilmeade remarked on Monday: (http://www.bobcesca.com/blog-archives/2009/04/the_feel_good_h.html) "It feels good" that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times in a single month. And here I thought only shiny jingly objects made Kilmeade feel good.


But it's not just Bush administration officials they're defending here. Extrapolating what the torture superfans are suggesting, they appear to believe that in light of the threat of terrorism, any administration should be able to torture, including the current president.



In other words: they're simultaneously accusing President Obama of being an oppressive and tyrannical "fascist," while also insisting that he should exercise the power to do whatever he wants in order to prevent another terrorist attack. Put yet another way: unchecked government power is awful, unless Sean Hannity is scared. Then it's excellent.



Put a third way: WTF?
Meanwhile, your very real fear of bankruptcy, homelessness and illness is not "my problem." (http://michellemalkin.com/2009/02/27/scenes-from-the-tea-party/) You liberal pinhead you.


As closely as I've been following the wingnut right lately, their ability to contradict themselves never ceases to confound. Stir into the mix a resurgence of irrational fear harkening back to 9/11 and the incongruities multiply faster than Newt Gingrich's wives.

Well, let's rewind then, if you want to rewind.

But the acts of both can at times be illegal whether it is blowing up a building because you don't like the right of a woman to choose or because you think that building is damaging the environment.

What is the purpose of this statement?

Well, let's rewind then, if you want to rewind.



What is the purpose of this statement?


The purpose was to state a fact.

What fact? That some people commit crimes, regardless of political or ideological affiliation? Pardon me if I'm not exactly blown away by that revelation.

How is that relevant to DHS monitoring, analyzing, and grouping people based on the supposition of possible crime that may potentially be committed in the future (maybe)? Just because you're a vet, should DHS put you on the no-teabag list at the airports?

On a side note, how sad is it that in just a few short years we all recognize DHS as Homeland instead of possibly Highway Safety/Services?

What fact? That some people commit crimes, regardless of political or ideological affiliation? Pardon me if I'm not exactly blown away by that revelation.

How is that relevant to DHS monitoring, analyzing, and grouping people based on the supposition of possible crime that may potentially be committed in the future (maybe)? Just because you're a vet, should DHS put you on the no-teabag list at the airports?

On a side note, how sad is it that in just a few short years we all recognize DHS as Homeland instead of possibly Highway Safety/Services?

The fact that people commit crimes based on all kinds of motivation...some do it based on political or ideological beliefs some do it because they are nuts, drunk, tired, depressed, scared, stupid, bored, stoked, white, black, asian, native american, a cop, not a cop, a post man...what's your point you are trying to teach me?

I dont agree with anything DHS does, in fact I think it is a Dept that should never have been started and should be dismantled. I think that any political party that is saying that DHS is targeting veterans as terrorists is at the least flat out lying...why? Because they are not targeting veterans as terrorists, they are saying that extremist groups are targeting veterans..that is pretty much verbatim and factual.

So to say that they are targeting veterans in an attempt to once again pose as the protectors of veterans when in fact that party is far from it and has done more to cut veterans benefits, programs and been the lead advocate for starting wars that create those veterans because they somehow think that it is what makes them patriotic is just wrong and disingenuois in their true motivation.

I am a liberal minded gun owner, I love guns, I don't think there should be any limits on ownership of semi auto assault weapons, I support the 1st amendment, the 2nd amendment, the 4th amendment, I am an NRA member and the only reason I no longer hunt is because it is more like a killing spree than hunting and has been so since I was in the Marine Corp, once I realized that I could do 10 head shot kills on woodchucks at 300 meters with iron sites and use only 10 rounds I kind of felt the challenge was gone.

I think it is an accurate assesment that extremist groups are trying to recruit military veterans in order to have them train their chicken hawk non serving pussy members in military tactics...but then again...if you are a political group why the military training?

Would you be so outspoken if the Black Panthers were doing the same? Or The green party?

The fact that people commit crimes based on all kinds of motivation...some do it based on political or ideological beliefs some do it because they are nuts, drunk, tired, depressed, scared, stupid, bored, stoked, white, black, asian, native american, a cop, not a cop, a post man...what's your point you are trying to teach me?

I dont agree with anything DHS does, in fact I think it is a Dept that should never have been started and should be dismantled. I think that any political party that is saying that DHS is targeting veterans as terrorists is at the least flat out lying...why? Because they are not targeting veterans as terrorists, they are saying that extremist groups are targeting veterans..that is pretty much verbatim and factual.

So to say that they are targeting veterans in an attempt to once again pose as the protectors of veterans when in fact that party is far from it and has done more to cut veterans benefits, programs and been the lead advocate for starting wars that create those veterans because they somehow think that it is what makes them patriotic is just wrong and disingenuois in their true motivation.

I am a liberal minded gun owner, I love guns, I don't think there should be any limits on ownership of semi auto assault weapons, I support the 1st amendment, the 2nd amendment, the 4th amendment, I am an NRA member and the only reason I no longer hunt is because it is more like a killing spree than hunting and has been so since I was in the Marine Corp, once I realized that I could do 10 head shot kills on woodchucks at 300 meters with iron sites and use only 10 rounds I kind of felt the challenge was gone.

I think it is an accurate assesment that extremist groups are trying to recruit military veterans in order to have them train their chicken hawk non serving pussy members in military tactics...but then again...if you are a political group why the military training?

Would you be so outspoken if the Black Panthers were doing the same? Or The green party?

What's wrong with Stormfront wanting to "recruit" ex-Military? I don't agree with their message, but who's to say which groups the Constitution applies to? Trying to legislate homogeneity is not what we're about here.

Do you think this is me being outspoken? Surely not, unless someone else is posting on your account tonight.

But sure, I think the government should get out of everyone's business, not just the "Extremist Radical LOLEZ Right Wing". In 4-8 more years, I'll think the same thing about the crazy Al Gore cult, which will probably be in the minority at that point.

What's wrong with Stormfront wanting to "recruit" ex-Military? I don't agree with their message, but who's to say which groups the Constitution applies to? Trying to legislate homogeneity is not what we're about here.

Do you think this is me being outspoken? Surely not, unless someone else is posting on your account tonight.

But sure, I think the government should get out of everyone's business, not just the "Extremist Radical LOLEZ Right Wing". In 4-8 more years, I'll think the same thing about the crazy Al Gore cult, which will probably be in the minority at that point.

LOL...once again I never said there was anything wrong with Stormfront or any group trying to recruit whoever they want. What I said was it is wrong for the Republican party to use their rather large communication system to say that DHS is targeting veterans as being terrorists...it is just not factual and is disrespectful of military veterans by placing them in a political fight.

See now I give you credit for that candid response...but should there be no basic standard we live by as a nation and if so what should that standard be?

Have you read the DHS report? Those characterizations are probably a bit opportunistic, but far from "not factual". The report was absurd.

Why are we acting like the original purpose of the FBI wasn't politically motivated repression? Remember those Native Americans who had to break into FBI offices to steal documents detailing how the majority of their budget went to it just to prove their own case (including state-sponsored violence against them)?

It's no shock DHS is focusing on non-problems, they have to justify their ridiculous budget somehow, and the kernel of truth to the racist veterans story is likely far more grounded in reality than the majority of shit they're wasting our money on.

What fact? That some people commit crimes, regardless of political or ideological affiliation? Pardon me if I'm not exactly blown away by that revelation.

How is that relevant to DHS monitoring, analyzing, and grouping people based on the supposition of possible crime that may potentially be committed in the future (maybe)? Just because you're a vet, should DHS put you on the no-teabag list at the airports?



Uhhhh. Dude. Stormfront, AB, Hammerskins et al. are actively advocating the overthrow of the United States government. You don't think its appropriate for law enforcement to monitor their activities, especially if they are looking for veterans from which to learn how to engage in warfare?

These groups have been running the same game for decades. /Yawn.

Do we really need DHS jumping at every silly shadow? Hey, there's also a site on the Internet that says the government is infiltrated by reptilian aliens. Should we have DHS conduct an investigation into that too? Please.

These groups have been running the same game for decades. /Yawn.

Do we really need DHS jumping at every silly shadow? Hey, there's also a site on the Internet that says the government is infiltrated by reptilian aliens. Should we have DHS conduct an investigation into that too? Please.

Been listening to David Icke again?

Except that Reptile offshoot groups never did this.

http://www.oklahomacitybombing.com/oklahoma-city-bombing-4.jpg

or

http://scribblguy.50megs.com/balcony.jpg

or planned this

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200810/r307774_1347794.jpg

The end game for every nazi group is violence. That is what they HOPE for.

Give me a break San. This is beyond ridiculous. Guess what else.. Police who want to catch DWIs hang outside of bars near closing time! SHOCKING!

This report wasnt marching orders.. it was information. Information is good. Here's whats going on.. be aware. WTF.

This report wasnt marching orders.. it was information. Information is good. Here's whats going on.. be aware. WTF.


'Nuff said!

You know darn well if one of those groups did carry out a bombing or shootings which resulted in loss of life. There would be a public outcry as to why those groups werent watched from the start, if known about.
The smart thing to do is monitor these extreme groups on both the left or right or center or any group, who believes in violence and the overthrowing of this country.
At least then your prepared to stop them if they do go that last crazy mile, to carry out what they preach.

That is, untill, your local PTA group finds its way onto one of those monitord groups list.

If you think it can't happen, then why did all those Branch Davidians get killed by Janet Reno?

That is, untill, your local PTA group finds its way onto one of those monitord groups list.

If you think it can't happen, then why did all those Branch Davidians get killed by Janet Reno?


So what is the answer? During Bush it was pretty common to have agents infiltrate any group that was suspected of wanting peace in the middle east. Is it wrong to have groups monitored that advocate the violent overthrow of the United States? Are these the people we want to be in command positions?

Should the federal government just be dissolved and have no influence on anything and we should just become 50 separate countries?

Are you really comparing the PTA to a Nazi hate group?

So what is the answer? During Bush it was pretty common to have agents infiltrate any group that was suspected of wanting peace in the middle east. Is it wrong to have groups monitored that advocate the violent overthrow of the United States? Are these the people we want to be in command positions?

Should the federal government just be dissolved and have no influence on anything and we should just become 50 separate countries?

Are you really comparing the PTA to a Nazi hate group?

Actually it was common practice to infiltrate groups suspected of sending funds to countries/groups in the ME suspected of aiding groups taking armed action against the interests of the USA. Good!

Actually it was common practice to infiltrate groups suspected of sending funds to countries/groups in the ME suspected of aiding groups taking armed action against the interests of the USA. Good!

It was also common practice for infiltration of any group that spoke out against the war in Iraq.

What group besides Al Queda attacked the US? Why were we not investigating groups that supported Saudi Arabia? Why when Hezbollah killed so many US servicemen was there no response to them?

The two worst attacks on the US on our soil were done by a group from the ME and the other was a right wing US group.

Are people here really suppporting Neo Nazi hate groups and treating them like they are just a bunch of guys who like wearing brown shirts and growing small mustaches?

Except that Reptile offshoot groups never did this.

http://www.oklahomacitybombing.com/oklahoma-city-bombing-4.jpg

Even if you believe that McVeigh was a lone crazy, remember that his motivation was supposedly retribution for Waco and Ruby Ridge.

This escalation between Federal government and citizens is dangerous and what has it accomplished? Galvanizing those groups and making it easier for them to recruit more people. Reminds me of our foreign policy toward brown people, ironically.

The end game for every nazi group is violence. That is what they HOPE for.

Give me a break San. This is beyond ridiculous. Guess what else.. Police who want to catch DWIs hang outside of bars near closing time! SHOCKING!

This report wasnt marching orders.. it was information. Information is good. Here's whats going on.. be aware. WTF.

Information is one thing, but information distributed like that might as well be a press release. Where's the missive targeting La Raza and their Plan of San Diego?

Where's the missive targeting La Raza and their Plan of San Diego?

In a separate report...seek and ye shall find. I didn't realize that so many here supported neo nazi groups...go figure.

Show me that report.

Show me that report.


I think I said...seek and ye shall find. go...find...go go go...find.

Are you really comparing the PTA to a Nazi hate group?

Actually, I was comparing the PTA, to a Separatist, End of the World, Christian Cult. Tomato, tomahto.

And I don't support the neo Nazi groups. What I support is punishment for crimes, not potential crimes. Freedom of speech isn't a crime. Freedom of expression isn't a crime.

Beating up someone because they are brown/gay/'liberal' is a crime. Prosecute them for that, when it occurs.

In a separate report

I'll take it you were just talking out of your ass there?

I'll take it you were just talking out of your ass there?


No...don't be lazy...it's been reported on...look.

Show it...to us...don't be lazy!

Show it...to us...don't be lazy!

LOL..gosh...how do you know about that movement? Was there never any reorts by the DoJ or any state AG offices?

Actually, I was comparing the PTA, to a Separatist, End of the World, Christian Cult. Tomato, tomahto.

And I don't support the neo Nazi groups. What I support is punishment for crimes, not potential crimes. Freedom of speech isn't a crime. Freedom of expression isn't a crime.

Beating up someone because they are brown/gay/'liberal' is a crime. Prosecute them for that, when it occurs.

And they have been punished how?

LOL..gosh...how do you know about that movement? Was there never any reorts by the DoJ or any state AG offices?

I don't know. Show us, since you think you know.

All I've ever seen on it is reports in the news, mostly South Western local news at that. Certainly not a publicly disseminated DHS document. If DHS is really targeting every potentially dangerous group with this sort of treatment, here's your chance to prove it.

Step up if you've got anything.

Well, some people on this board, have suggested in the past, that surveilance in and of itself, is a punishment of sorts.

But I guess it's only a crime if Bush and Cheney are doing it.

I do know, from local news, that the militia groups here in the West are being watched and monitored as much as possible. They do tend to be rather tight knit , read inbred?, and hole up on large plots of land out of sight from public roads. Idaho is rife with such groups and one hopes that they'll stay on the up and up armed as they are.

I don't know. Show us, since you think you know.

All I've ever seen on it is reports in the news, mostly South Western local news at that. Certainly not a publicly disseminated DHS document. If DHS is really targeting every potentially dangerous group with this sort of treatment, here's your chance to prove it.

Step up if you've got anything.

There is a DoJ report on LaRaza done about 5 years ago...look and you'll see.


I'm kind of shocked to know that Sanchek supports white supremecy...who would have known...I wonder if that is as accurate of a statement as the DHS is targeting returning veterans as terrorists?

Yes, I must keep the lesser races out of my pure bloodline. Or, whatever.

I found the report you're talking about. I stand corrected that no one in the government's mentioned them.

At the same time, can't you see the difference between a State DoJ throwing in a few blurbs about La Raza (a gang) and an entire Homeland Security document focusing on the entire far Right?

Yes, I must keep the lesser races out of my pure bloodline. Or, whatever.

I found the report you're talking about. I stand corrected that no one in the government's mentioned them.

At the same time, can't you see the difference between a State DoJ throwing in a few blurbs about La Raza (a gang) and an entire Homeland Security document focusing on the entire far Right?


I made the race comment as a point to show how the DHS report was turned into something it really wasnt...I do know you are not a supporter of those groups.

I would think that if State DoJ's were looking at them so would the Feds as they often share info...but who knows...I am probably wrong.

Well.. if its any consolation...

The muslims who have been wiretapped and watched since 9/11

The black people who have been racially profilled

The Hispanics who have been challenged for a green card just because they are hispanic.

The Japanese from the internment camps

All feel the the pain of the poor, unfairly targeted white people.