The DNC kicked off pretty slow and boring at first, but between Jesse Jackson jr, Ted Kennedy and Michelle Obama's speeches there was not a dry eye in the house.

Michelle Obama just gave one of the best speeches I have heard in this presidential campaign.

Here are the links...

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/25/dnc.main/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/25/michelle.obama.transcript/index.html


Footage of both speeches

Ted Kennedy
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Jesse Jackson jr
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Michelle Obama's Speech Part 1
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Part 2
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Well, I'll give Michelle Obama credit for supporting her husband.

The Democrats would have done much better to keep Jesse and Ted completely out of the picture. Those loons bring nothing good to the table.

It's all for naught, the one saving grace I had held out for Obama was him being a new voice in Washington. Now he's whored out his stance by bringing in Biden.

Blah...

Well, I'll give Michelle Obama credit for supporting her husband.

The Democrats would have done much better to keep Jesse and Ted completely out of the picture. Those loons bring nothing good to the table.

It's all for naught, the one saving grace I had held out for Obama was him being a new voice in Washington. Now he's whored out his stance by bringing in Biden.

Blah...


Biden simply takes away McCains ability to say that the Obama campaign has no experience. Biden is also one of only 4 members of the Senate that is not wealthy. He represents the working man pretty well, and that is the platform that Obama is running on right now.

Anyone have problems with Obama not knowing world leaders? No problem... Biden can pick up the phone and call the president of Georgia at any time!

Change that will never happen due to Obama not being elected is worthless. He has to get to the White House before he can make those changes.

He sold out, plain and simple.

He's done so at an increasing rate recently.

We're getting the same ole same ole and just as I told you during the big Pelosi sweep 2 years ago nothing is going to change.

He sold out, plain and simple.

He's done so at an increasing rate recently.

We're getting the same ole same ole and just as I told you during the big Pelosi sweep 2 years ago nothing is going to change.

How has he sold out?

He is trying his utmost to stick to the issues, and McCain completely went against his word of sticking to a respectful campaign discussing the issues without attacking his opponent.

His Vice President doesn't need to be new to Washington for him to do what he promises.

So him flopping on off shore oil drilling and a weakening on his tax stance isn't selling out?

We're fucked good and hard, we have no good choice this round blast it.

So him flopping on off shore oil drilling and a weakening on his tax stance isn't selling out?

We're fucked good and hard, we have no good choice this round blast it.

A good leader changes his mind when the necessity to change his mind presents itself. Would you rather he say F that I'm stickin to my plan, Screw America... My career as a non flip flopper is more important!

There is a clear difference between changing your mind because evidence shows it is the correct course, and changing your mind to appeal to voters who would not vote for you if you stuck to your own beliefs. McCain has done that, and done it hardcore.

Obama has not shifted on his tax stance. He has always said he would raise taxes on people earning $250,000 a year or more. His stance has been diluted by John McCain who has deceived many ignorant voters with his ad's with his false accusations that Obama wants to raise taxes on middle class/poor Americans.

Obama is a great choice. Perhaps not the best possible person in the world to lead this country... but of our choices, a vote for anyone else at this time would be folly.

Yeah, I was going to say. Since when has pig-headed stubbornness been a virtue?

It's sad that anyone would try to drag him down for changing his mind based on the facts. That should be a positive trait.

I guess I'm being rather cynical. Usually during the election cycle you try to stand tall and firm on your platform. You don't allow the real you to surface till you are safely entrenched in your position.

He's already giving ground now, how bad is it going to be once he's in?

Jedd, damn yer hide how many times I have to say I don't like McCain either? I realize you have a blind spot or gajillion when folks talk outside your wheelhouse but I've clearly said time and again I don't like McCain on a number of reasons.

I dislike both candidates and if Obama is going to have Clinton and Kennedy pulling his strings I definately DON'T want him in office ;(

"Usually" = status quo = fuck that shit.

I don't care for Obama, but I care less for what "usually" has given us lately.

I guess I'm being rather cynical. Usually during the election cycle you try to stand tall and firm on your platform. You don't allow the real you to surface till you are safely entrenched in your position.

That's why I think Obama is a different sort of presidential candidate. He is not afraid to let the real him show. This is one of the biggest reasons I am so passionate in supporting him.

He's already giving ground now, how bad is it going to be once he's in?

I think we simply will have to disagree that he is giving any ground. I think when compared to McCain for instance he has stood firmly to his own beliefs.

He is not by any means the perfect candidate, but in comparison to McCain, I find it funny that you are more worried with the lesser of the two evils.

Jedd, damn yer hide how many times I have to say I don't like McCain either? I realize you have a blind spot or gajillion when folks talk outside your wheelhouse but I've clearly said time and again I don't like McCain on a number of reasons.

I never implied that you like McCain more then Obama... I don't recall saying that in this thread. However you seem to be a lot tougher on Obama and quicker to point out his flaws then those of McCain.

I dislike both candidates and if Obama is going to have Clinton and Kennedy pulling his strings I definately DON'T want him in office ;(

Kennedy won't be around much longer, I am sad to say... and Clinton will not be a part of the Obama presidency in any way. It is time to do as Michelle Obama said... Stop voting on your fears, but instead on your hopes.

I tend to agree with you San, but I'm thinking it's not going to change one wit with Obama in there.

The Democrats are long on promises lately and devoid of carrying any of those out.

Ya'll want change, ya'll drink deep of the self loathing American hatorade but if ya'll are going to do nothing but settle for apathetic leadership then kindly quit trying to shove a worthless candidate down our throats bitte.

Ahhh I'm not so tough on McCain because he's going to lose in November and I expect more out of the man who's going to sign my paycheck soon.

The Democrats are long on promises lately and devoid of carrying any of those out.

Perhaps a veto happy president contributed to this?

Ya'll want change, ya'll drink deep of the self loathing American hatorade but if ya'll are going to do nothing but settle for apathetic leadership then kindly quit trying to shove a worthless candidate down our throats bitte.

I hate you for making me defend Obama, but come on.

This is probably the only time in the entire history of the Internets that someone has described Obama as apathetic. Unless maybe it was opposite day.

Nah, you have to try before you get vetoed.

The Democratic Congress has not been impressive, at all.

I hate you for making me defend Obama, but come on.

This is probably the only time in the entire history of the Internets that someone has described Obama as apathetic. Unless maybe it was opposite day.

If he's giving ground, selling out on letting old washington in his cadre and basically acting like every other candidate for Pres he's apathetic in my eyes.

Yes you love the sound bytes, the HOooorrahhhh Obama and you mistake that for energetic.

I see a PR campaign that has everyone doing flips simply because he's young and not Bush.

He's apathetic because it'll all be the same ole same ole. Perhaps that's my vision because I'm losing faith in the system that keeps spawning out chum instead of leaders.

I haven't really seen the "not Bush" campaign? Where do you see that?

If he's giving ground, selling out on letting old washington in his cadre and basically acting like every other candidate for Pres he's apathetic in my eyes.

Yes you love the sound bytes, the HOooorrahhhh Obama and you mistake that for energetic.

I see a PR campaign that has everyone doing flips simply because he's young and not Bush.

He's apathetic because it'll all be the same ole same ole. Perhaps that's my vision because I'm losing faith in the system that keeps spawning out chum instead of leaders.

I respect your views Fandros, and I can see where you would lose hope based on the past. However I ask you one thing.

If we were to never take a chance, would we ever make a change? I see Obama as the possibility for something different. You see him getting closer to what we are used to...

Which one of us is right? We won't know if we don't elect the man. Worse case scenario is we get the same shit we already have, best case is that we get something completely different, that changes our country for the better.

Yes lets celibrate a murdering fuck like Ted kennedy! go us!

I didn't meant to imply that Obama's folks were throwing out a "notBush" campaign so much as people are jumping in the streets practically chanting it.

It's all great to hope, but it's not so great to hope for a flawed candidate simply because he's not Bush. I hear it all the time from folks and it worries me.

And yes Jedd, more than likely Obama is the better of the two. I just want more ;(

Yes lets celibrate a murdering fuck like Ted kennedy! go us!

So if not proven innocent or guilty, all signs point to guilty? Republican thinking? or just your diluted thinking?

I didn't meant to imply that Obama's folks were throwing out a "notBush" campaign so much as people are jumping in the streets practically chanting it.

It's all great to hope, but it's not so great to hope for a flawed candidate simply because he's not Bush. I hear it all the time from folks and it worries me.

And yes Jedd, more than likely Obama is the better of the two. I just want more ;(

Gotcha!

Yes lets celibrate a murdering fuck like Ted kennedy! go us!

Really it was the Dems playing for pity by bringing out the murderous shambling ill Ted Kennedy who's hoping to live for the day Obama is in charge.


Good lord, that sick fuck has got to know if there's an afterlife he's not going to enjoy it...

So if not proven innocent or guilty, all signs point to guilty? Republican thinking? or just your diluted thinking?

Oh c'mon, you cannot be saying that Ted Kennedy's past vehicular homicide was a republican slander attempt?

His name kept him out of jail and you're not going to change the minds of those of us who remember all too well the discussions about it.

I am not saying he is guilty or innocent of murder... I simply am asking if there is no way to prove he is innocent or guilty, does that make him automatically guilty?

So if not proven innocent or guilty, all signs point to guilty? Republican thinking? or just your diluted thinking?


How about the fact he stated he never tried to save the woman...just let her drown. Yep...must be republican thinking!

Fact is Ted was so trashed he'd have been unable to save her. It's the coverup and the fact he's still in a position of authority and power and make me sick.

How about the fact he stated he never tried to save the woman...just let her drown. Yep...must be republican thinking!

Perhaps he was in shock? Hurt? Physically unable? Couldn't swim?

And if he was drunk, do you still call it murder? What if she was drunker then him? Is he really without a doubt a murderer?

I dunno... seems like you guys would be bringing up everything possible if it were a republican who had been accused of the same... Or perhaps someone would say "McCain was a POW for 5 and a half years" when asked about the same thing :) /chuckle

Funny thing is, the guy admitted he didn't try and save her... What kind of cover up has the damn suspect admit he wasn't man enough to try and save the victim...

Seems like if he was trying to cover something up he would claim to have tried to save her but failed.

Its got nothing to do with the fact that he is a democrat as i'm not a republican. It has everything to do with the fact he was fucking her...then she mysteriously was in an accident with him and "drowned". Knowing full well he would not get in trouble with family that was a president and attorney general. Give me a fucking break with the persecution because he is a democrat.

Funny thing is, the guy admitted he didn't try and save her... What kind of cover up has the damn suspect admit he wasn't man enough to try and save the victim...

Seems like if he was trying to cover something up he would claim to have tried to save her but failed.

At the time of the accident he said he tried to save her 7 times. It wasn't until 30 years later he admitted he didn't do crap.

Well then maybe he was a piece of a crap...

I would love to hear what people thought about Michelle's speech though... Helps Obama? Hurts Obama? You liked it? hated it?

Anyone have an opinion on it?

I thought she did a decent job, and came across as both intelligent and reasonably sincere, although I wouldn't say she knocked it out of the park - it was fairly standard 'my husband is such a great guy', but it shed some light on her own motivations and managed not to be too empty-sickly sweet - and noticibly, it seemed designed to be marketing Michelle more so than her husband. The only really false note was when she mentioned Hillary Clinton; I found it amusing to watching her half-choking as she referenced the '18 million cracks she made in the glass ceiling', and it would have been better if she hadn't brought the subject up at all - the speech was going pretty smoothly until then and I don't think any good purpose was served by reminding the delegates that there's no love lost between those two. The distaste and awkwardness was palpable, and a noticible blemish on an otherwise solid speech. The other weak note was the whole 'he was so persistent in asking me out, tee-hee' theme, followed up by Obama showing up via video to share in the homespun cutsey moment, but we've certainly seen *far* worse from the Republicans before on that score...

The whole tone of the evening's speeches was very touchy-idealistic-feely "We have the moral high ground, let's crusade for our populist American Dream", without mentioning any specifics - while it will play well with the party faithful and NF/chakra-aligning touchy-feely types (and was genuinely moving in parts to me), I don't think it will hold much sway with those who are (still) waiting for some word on what the ground game is going to be...

Regards,
Nydia

Ya'll are greatly underestimating the power of the recovering from brain cancer thing.

So him flopping on off shore oil drilling and a weakening on his tax stance isn't selling out?

We're fucked good and hard, we have no good choice this round blast it.
Having an administration that wasn't willing to change a stance when they were wrong got us into the mess we are in right now. I'd much rather someone be man enough to admit when he's wrong and adjust his policy than have a man that's so stubborn that when he fucks up, he just keeps fucking up more and more trying to unfuck up the fuck up without really changing how he's handling the fuck up.

I haven't really seen the "not Bush" campaign? Where do you see that?

I've seen many attempts at the "not Bush" from the McCain adds running here in Ohio.

Ya'll are greatly underestimating the power of the recovering from brain cancer thing.

I was pleasantly surprised and glad to see him speak, but you don't generally recover from glioblastoma :/ - the average survival time *with* aggressive treatment is ~10 months (having lost two uncles and a grandfather to this type of cancer, one recently, and Kennedy's is a Grade IV), and I suspect that he asked for a suspension in his radiation treatments such that he'd be well enough to speak at the convention. The whole 'martyred Ted Kennedy anointing Obama with shaking hand' angle that the Kennedy family and Obama campaign have been pushing for months hasn't particularly moved me, however. While I enjoyed the Carter video dealing with Katrina, and was glad to see Jimmy and Rosalyn, it was a bit disappointing that *they* didn't get to speak - and Jesse Jackson Jr. was, in my mind, a net negative, lacking his father's gift of soaring oratory and additionally, taking a risk by bringing up, and somewhat disingenuously glossing over, the circumstances of Obama's 1996 Illinois Senate election.

Michelle Obama's speech was a good one, it defined who she is and from where she came. She is the epitome of the "american dream" she and her husband are living proof that hard work pays off. Her story is reality in many many homes across this country, there is no disputing that.

From reading this thread, and I understand that Fandros is on the fence with this election, I see alot of the republican hyperbole being repeated in his questioning of Obama and I advocate questioning but are these questions valid?

What is the REAL relationship of Obama and Rezko? What influence does Rezko have on Obama? Is Rezko Obama? Does it really matter that he knows them?

I know someone who I've known and hung around in my younger years and was even a fairly close friend who is in prison for drug dealing, theft, fraud and is suspect in a murder. I even borrowed money from him once. Does that mean I am bad or should not be president?

I see the standard OMG he flip flopped which is really saying he changed his mind and I don't see that as a bad thing. I see the we must question how he bought a million dollar home and what I see is that he did it with money he earned from two books he wrote.

The bashing of Biden simply confounds me, I just don't get it. This guy raised his children as a single father, rode a commuter train everyday from his home in Delaware to Washington, he has a 2nd mortgage on his home to pay for his kids college education and his net worth is estimated at between 100 to 150,000 dollars, this guy is straight up middle class and from what is known has not used his position as a senator to embellish his bank account with the standard "my wife just opened a consulting business and OMG she just signed a 2 million dollar contract with that company whos legislative agenda just happens to reflect my new position".

Both of these candidates stories, backgrounds and lives are played out in millions of homes in this country every day of the year, there really is no disputing this

The bashing of Biden simply confounds me, I just don't get it. This guy raised his children as a single father, rode a commuter train everyday from his home in Delaware to Washington, he has a 2nd mortgage on his home to pay for his kids college education and his net worth is estimated at between 100 to 150,000 dollars, this guy is straight up middle class and from what is known has not used his position as a senator to embellish his bank account with the standard "my wife just opened a consulting business and OMG she just signed a 2 million dollar contract with that company whos legislative agenda just happens to reflect my new position".

To me, that's a huge plus.

I think people fail to realize just how a) corrupt and b) out of touch with the middle class 99.9% of our elected representatives are. Empty rhetoric about how "dynamic" he is pales in comparison to decades of public service without completely losing touch with the rest of us.

I get it Rover. It's called fear. Fear that when all this comes out and becomes common knowledge about Biden that it will lock up the election for Obama. The Republicans must get bad ideas to fill the heads of potential voters early about Biden before it comes out that he's closer to most of us than any one else in this election.

To me, that's a huge plus.

I think people fail to realize just how a) corrupt and b) out of touch with the middle class 99.9% of our elected representatives are. Empty rhetoric about how "dynamic" he is pales in comparison to decades of public service without completely losing touch with the rest of us.

I think people do realize how corrupt our politicians are, at least half of us do. I don't find anything wrong with questioning ones record in elected office I do think it's ridiculious to try to pin the corruption thing on Biden when it is clearly obvious that the usual suspect things, like I mentioned, just are not anywhere near this guy.

I think there are many questionable issues with McCain himself much more than one can question about Obama and Biden. It's kind of like trying to pin Ron Paul as a KKK member because some idiot who supported him once sent out a newsletter that advocated returning slavery, that as much as the attacks on Obama and Biden just hold no water.

I also view Biden as a big plus to the ticket, for the reasons mentioned already plus the fact that he'll be invaluable to Obama both as an attack dog and someone who can help him negotiate the territory, as well as shore up that 'lack of experience' hole big enough to drive a truck through. Interestingly, Faervas' view was the opposite; he felt that Biden's as a consummate insider 'tainted' Obama's message of 'change' and also that because Biden is from a small Northeastern state, he would do nothing for Southern or Western voters and would contribute to the perennial red/blue coastal/interior divide and perceptions of elitism. I suppose one can view the 'voter sophistication' glass as half-full or half empty, and I'd have to say I prefer Obama's 'optimistic' view as reflected in his choice...

Regards,
Nydia

I got this, not sure from who but it was positive. I can't see who gives rep anymore unless its signed.

Did you misunderstand me to be suggesting Biden to be corrupt?

No, I didn't misunderstand, sorry if I gave the impression, and I dont think anyone would think that Biden is corrupt.

Since you quoted me, I thought it was obvious.

This Biden?

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/rezko/1124666,CST-NWS-rezko25.article

No matter what help Barack Obama might get from Sen. Joseph Biden, his newly named vice presidential running mate won't give Obama much cover on the Tony Rezko front.

Biden has described himself as a 30-year friend of a key figure in the Rezko trial who's pleaded guilty to a federal extortion charge in Chicago and is awaiting sentencing.

http://www.slate.com/id/2198543/

...Biden's exit from the 1988 race is worth recalling in detail, because his transgressions far exceeded Obama's own relatively innocent lifting of rhetorical set pieces from his friend Deval Patrick, which occasioned a brief flap last February. Biden's misdeeds encompassed numerous self-aggrandizing thefts, misstatements, and exaggerations that seemed to point to a serious character defect.

...the even greater sin was to borrow biographical facts from Kinnock that, although true about Kinnock, didn't apply to Biden. Unlike Kinnock, Biden wasn't the first person in his family history to attend college, as he asserted; nor were his ancestors coal miners, as he claimed when he used Kinnock's words. Once exposed, Biden's campaign team managed to come up with a great-grandfather who had been a mining engineer, but he hardly fit the candidate's description of one who "would come up [from the mines] after 12 hours and play football." At any rate, Biden had delivered his offending remarks with an introduction that clearly implied he had come up with them himself and that they pertained to his own life.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/23/AR2008082302200.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/23/AR2008082302200.html)

A son and a brother of Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. (D-Del.) are accused in two lawsuits of defrauding a former business partner and an investor of millions of dollars in a hedge fund deal that went sour, court records show.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/25/us/politics/25biden.html?_r=2&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&adxnnlx=1219669224-BQ6jAdlj/AK/yuY73h3rkQ&oref=slogin

During the years that Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr. was helping the credit card industry win passage of a law making it harder for consumers to file for bankruptcy protection, his son had a consulting agreement that lasted five years with one of the largest companies pushing for the changes, aides to Senator Barack Obama’s presidential campaign acknowledged Sunday.

Why the above matters...

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1157158

HARVARD STUDY - "The data suggests that although bankruptcies and credit card company losses decreased, and credit card companies achieved record profits, the cost to consumers of credit card debt actually increased. In other words the 2005 bankruptcy reforms profited credit card companies at consumers' expense."

And as for Michelle, damned fine performance. I shit myself everytime I get in front of more than 50 people. Yeah she's gotten experience over the past year or so, but any 'civilian' doing that in front of 20k+ people deserves some respect. She did it with ease, even when her husband didn't know which city he's calling in from.

Quotes from the articles:

Republicans controlled the Senate for much of the time when the bankruptcy bills were under consideration. MBNA employees have given Mr. Biden more than $214,000 in campaign donations over the years, the largest amount in his coffers tied to any single company. But the company’s employees have given even more lavishly to President George W. Bush and top Republican lawmakers.


Brian C. Wille, an attorney for Lotito, said the lawsuit alleges no wrongdoing by Sen. Biden,


Lotito lied about being a "fully licensed and accredited securities professional" with hedge fund experience.

In addition, he said Lotito recommended a lawyer to vet the business deal who was under investigation and was ultimately convicted on several felony charges of conspiracy and wire and mail fraud in a scheme to steal millions from a computer company.

Since you quoted me, I thought it was obvious.

I'm on the slow side a bit more than usual today.

Thinking about Akipts post a bit more, I would think if there was any weight to what your linking to imply it would have been very clear that Biden should not even have been considered for the VP slot let alone even an advisory role.

Honestly the things that have been used to go after Obama and now I'm sure Biden will and have been attacks on people they know, knew or once waived to and with Biden it's going after his son, good shot the guys son has been in a bad business deal but the Bush family has that same problem and you, Akipt, support them...odd isn't it?

Fact is McCain and the republicans know full well if they stick to substantive issues they lose hands down and once again look what they have done to REAL conservatives in their own party.

If you're trying to win people over with the Hope & Change platform and then you're having to do the 'but but Bush' defense, you've already lost.

I don't know that many middle class folks with sons and brothers involved in multi-million dollar hedge fund deals gone bad.

I don't know that many middle class families with a son lobbying the father to get some sweet deals for my company.

I do know quite a few middle class folk who can smell shit when it's near and have enough sense not to play in it though. Biden should have known better.

And I note you have completly skipped over the plagairism bits.

The only way you could possibly try to mount that argument for Biden's corruption is if you were talking to people who didn't know you support McCain. That's a damn fragile glass house you're tossing those pebbles from.

To call Ted Kennedy "a murdering thug" is about the most asinine thing I have ever read.

Look at the man's life in total. Yea, Right Wing radio hosts want the only thing he is known for is the Chappquiddaq(?) thing.... but that is only an attempt to try to diminish the man's accomplishments.

Was it a horrible thing to do, getting drunk, crashing, and then swimming away to safety without saving his passenger?
Hell yes.

But you miss out the momumental achievements the man has accomplished since 1969.

There is nobody more respected by his fellow Senators on both sides of the aisle. There is a reason for that. He has worked tirelessly with people from both parties to pass legislation that has positively affected the lives of every single American.

No matter what else... his record has ensured his place as one the greatest Senators in US History.

Period.

Problem is L2 you're so used to accepting politicians bullshit you gladly accept Ted Kennedy's bullshit because omg he served later.

He should've been in jail, the torment he put that girl and her family through all okay because he's a Kennedy.

Wow, that's utter bullshit.....

The only way you could possibly try to mount that argument for Biden's corruption is if you were talking to people who didn't know you support McCain. That's a damn fragile glass house you're tossing those pebbles from.I support McCain about as much as you support Obama.

Right Wing radio hosts want the only thing he is known for is the Chappquiddaq(?) thing....My grandfather was about as blue as you can get and he always brought teddy up as an example of how fucked up this country is. Nice try though.

I could be reading a different account of the Kennedy accident.

So Fandros and Akipt are in a car, driving, Fandros is drunk. They have an accident and go off a bridge, Fandros, saves his own ass. Akipt dies, no facts EITHER WAY can prove if he had time/ability to save her.

Fandros rolls out on the scene.

Conclusion: Fandros is a murdering SOB? Isnt worse case he is guilty of Involuntary Manslaughter? Voluntary if you want to say his being drunk adds some sort of premediation to it? Also, fleeing the scene of the accident?

To add, can the GOP supporters really toss around the "drunk" card. King George got a DUI at 30 and Chaney got two DUI's in his early twenties.

You're unifmormed Grey so I won't blast you for that ignorant analogy of the Ted Kennedy situation.

He drove off into a pond, drunk as hell the girl died (we're still not sure if she was already dead prior to the accident mind you) and then covered it up for 30 fucking years.

Left the scene before the police could get there hours later. Hid on the Kennedy compound till details were worked out.

My grandfather was about as blue as you can get and he always brought teddy up as an example of how fucked up this country is. Nice try though.

Why should I give a fuck about your grandpappy? I really don't. His opinion is meaningless and totally without context. He could be as retarded as you are. Ill need some DNA samples and tests run. It could be genetic.

The facts are what they are. Chappiquidda exists and it must be taken for what it is. His record exists and it must be taken for what it is.

Should he have been in jail? Maybe. Maybe not. What standard would any of us have been held to? He was charged and plead guilty to leaving the scene of an accident. The State of Massachusetts had no way to prove if he had been drinking or not, or was intoxicated or not. Remember, this is 1969, when they viewed that thing in a far different light than we do today.

The other thing to consider is why so many right wingers feel the need to talk for the Kopchene family. They never sued, they never spoke out against Kennedy, or joined his political enemies in attacking him. Did they suffer? Im sure they did, but they resisted being used as a political football for political means.

What relationship exists between the two families is unknown, except that when the Kopechne family fought to prevent their daughters body from being exhumed, it was Ted Kennedy who gave them money for the lawyers.

Its a tragic reality that we must all deal with. Last year there were 48,000 traffic accident deaths in the United States. 200 people die every single day in a traffic accident.

Being a Kennedy doesnt or didnt make it right. Nothing makes it right, but it is what it is and it must be placed in the context of the whole when considering the sum value of a man's life.

Problem is L2 you're so used to accepting politicians bullshit you gladly accept Ted Kennedy's bullshit because omg he served later.
Please Fanny.. peddle that shit somewhere else.
You think you have some knowledge or insight that I don't? You think in some way you see the political landscape with such unique clarity?
Give me a break.

(we're still not sure if she was already dead prior to the accident mind you)
This is just stupid.
Tin foil hattery at its finest.
Maybe Ted Kennedy is a Serial Killer!!!! Maybe he was in the Grassy Knoll and popped a cap in his brother, maybe he killed Vince Foster. We can't be sure of anything can we? We can only foist conjecture based on zero evidence and make wild conclusions based on even less.

I support McCain about as much as you support Obama.

Well, shit. Why are we arguing about these 2-4 losers then?

Convince people to vote for someone worth a damn instead of who not to vote for.

Why should I give a fuck about your grandpappy? I really don't. His opinion is meaningless and totally without context.About as meaningless as your attack on 'Right Wing Radio' then.

I'm pretty sure his opinion had context.

Actually, if I recall, there was some rumor that the Kennedy clan ( quite a bit more powerful then than now) paid off the victims family. That's why they didn't want the body exumed and why the Kennedy's paid for the lawyers to help hide that.

The Kennedy's, for those of you who didn't study them were and to some small extent still are, even without Rose, a family hellbent on power. Since Joe died they turned from family first to family power first.

Sorry L2, apparently the revisionist history is getting too wide spread if this has become a forgotten moment in the great Liberal godhood that is the Kennedy's.

He abandoned the scene, hid on the compound, confounded the po-po and bought his way out of trouble. If you are still attempting to whitewash the ugly stink that is the lesser Kennedy boy then I'm sorry but I'll not argue with you on it.

There are many of us old enough that I find it unwise for Obama to allow this doddering old crook to speak for him. I'd rather he keep his hands clean as my personal distaste for Kennedy makes it rather hard for me to think it's a good thing to have him around.

Since Joe died they turned from family first to family power first.


LOL..are you talking about the father Joe? If so the man's money, much like alot back in the 20's and 30's was made as a mobster from illegaly importing canadian liquor during prohibition. He cared about money and getting his boys into congress thats all.

That said, they are generally a good family they LIKE MANY OTHER families have their shit and not that I agree with things but influence pedaling is not something unique to the Kennedys, Bushs or anyone else in politics it kind of makes the world go 'round. What I'd be more worried about as far as the Kennedy clan goes is who really shot Jack, anyone who has basic knowledge of weponry will fully admit that shot was damn near impossible. He was so obviously hit from the front and from down low it's not even funny that it's pedaled as a rear shot.

So in theory Hitler could of been fine if he had only lived long enough to do some good?

He left the scene of the crime. He hide and tried to cover it up. Based on her body position it was guessed she lived for 1 to 2 hours after the accident. He didnt stop by any house on way to talk to his lawyer buddies. He passed 4 house on way back to party. And at party next door was volunteer fire dept building. He had multiple times to go for help. Yet he was on phone making tons of calls to lawyers and handlers about what to do (he even called her parents) He even slept for 5 or so hours. And was acting as if nothing had happened dressed in his yatching closes chatting at the club (his buddy accused him of wanting to say she drove along and he wasnt there). And 9 hours later after the accident was discovered and he was confronted, then did he fess up.

When it happened it was a drunk driving accident and posibly man-slaughter. When he left and hide the knowledge it became murder. Also she didnt drowned she died of asfixation (the air pocket she clinged to for life became CO2 fill and all O2 was used up). And all covered up with money.

And to imply that back then they didnt care about drunk driving is lame. They couldnt charge him because he slept and waited half a day to sober up.

Teddy and his 2 lawyer buddies stories never fit together and changed a ton.

But hey he's a hero or something. Honoring is an embarasment to the party.

Maybe tonight be better for them

Thread over... first hitler reference.


I am not a Ted Kennedy fan at all, but equating him to Hitler... come on.

About as meaningless as your attack on 'Right Wing Radio' then.
Are you even aware of the meaning of the term "context"? I have listened to RWR and know exactly what they say and in what context they put things and for what reason.
Saying "Oh my Blue Granddaddy" said this or that is about as meaningful or enlightening as a Jerome Corsi footnote. Its a nice quaint antectdote, but sheds no light and carries no weight any more than if I said "Oh my cat farted out a compelling argument for the Iraq War, ipso, ergo, erratum."

Actually, if I recall, there was some rumor that the Kennedy clan ( quite a bit more powerful then than now) paid off the victims family.
Oh wow. Where did you get this rumor? Did Trixie send you an email?
Good god. Rumor?
And no proof right? Just "Oh yea, I can assume whatever facts I want in order to support my preconceptions"
gotcha

The Kennedy's, for those of you who didn't study them were and to some small extent still are, even without Rose, a family hellbent on power. Since Joe died they turned from family first to family power first.
>sigh<
So, The elder brother giving his life in combat for his country, JFK serving in the Pacific, Bobby going into a black slum the night MLK was murdered to calm the crowds. Ted making sure that every single Hummvee heading to Iraq was uparmored.
Thats all power hellbent?
forty years later, Ted Kennedy looks like the best and most effective senator of the past hundred years. He has followed the counsel of his first Senate tutor, Phil Hart of Michigan, who told him you can accomplish anything in Washington if you give others the credit. Kennedy has drafted and shaped more landmark legislation than liberal giants like Robert Wagner, Hubert Humphrey, Estes Kefauver and Herbert Lehmann. He has survived tragedy and scandal, endured presidential defeat, right-wing demonization, ridicule by TV comics. Now, at 70, he has evolved into a joyous Job. His career has become an atonement for one night of indefensible behavior, when he failed to report the fatal 1969 accident in which he drove off the bridge at Chappaquiddick, leaving a young woman to drown in the car. He has converted persistence into redemption.

In 1985 Kennedy forever renounced seeking the presidency, declaring, "The pursuit of the presidency is not my life. Public service is." By abandoning higher ambition, he found a form of liberation. He had nothing left to lose. The weight of the country's--and his family's--expectations was lifted from his shoulders. His motives were perceived as less calculating and self-aggrandizing. He could settle into the Senate for the long march. He could become a patient and disciplined legislator without feeling like a failure. When the GOP won control of the Senate in 1994 and some Democrats, like George Mitchell, quit after losing their leadership posts and committee chairmanships, Kennedy stayed and fought in the trenches.
Hellbent? Really?

http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2004/03/08/iraq_death_spurs_push_for_humvee_armor/
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/08/19/the_light_of_fallen_friends/

He abandoned the scene, hid on the compound, confounded the po-po and bought his way out of trouble. If you are still attempting to whitewash the ugly stink that is the lesser Kennedy boy then I'm sorry but I'll not argue with you on it.
Its like Bizzaro argument land.
Im not whitewashing anything. Im the ONLY one here taking the entire body of work of the man into account. You NEED to ignore his work for the last 35 years. I can look at the sum total of Edward Kennedy and say this was a great, but flawed man who served his country with honor. While his mistake of one night should stay with him, rightfully, he work as human being and struggle for redemption cannot be poo - poo'd.

There are many of us old enough that I find it unwise for Obama to allow this doddering old crook to speak for him. I'd rather he keep his hands clean as my personal distaste for Kennedy makes it rather hard for me to think it's a good thing to have him around.
The bottom line is my Bullshit meter is going off the charts because while you front and pretend that this is some moral stand, the reality is that it comes entirely from ideological differences. Had Ole Teddy been a person with views more in line with some of you, you can bet your fucking asses suddenly things would have been different.

If life is about redemption, and I think it is, then Ted Kennedy is an example of a person that has done a pretty good job of paying back a massive life debt, not with cash, but with a dedication of his life to a higher cause and service to his fellow man. If he hasnt done it, then the possibilty of a human being to acheive redemption in his life after a mistake is simply not possible.

Look back at some of the legislation he has lead the way on.

First Bi-lingual Education program
WIC program
National Family Planning initiatives
Fuel Assistance Program
Job Training Partnership Act
Welfare to Job intiatives
A multitude of Minimum wage increases
The Head Start Program
The Family Medical Leave Act
Pediatric Medical Graduate Education Program (basically fixed an understaffing of Pediatric Doctors for a generation or more)
No Child Left Behind
Bioterrorism Preparedness Act
Enhanced Border Security and Visa Entry Reform Act
AMBER alert federal funding
Individuals with Disabilities Education Act
Project Bioshield Act (created a federal funding stream to guide America’s medical and biotechnology researchers in creating stronger defenses to biological threats. The National Institutes for Health, as well as universities and research institutions in Massachusetts and around the country, will benefit from the initiative, and lead the way in developing new biodefense countermeasures such as vaccines, immunizations, and other treatments.)
During consideration of the Iraq supplemental spending bill, Senator Kennedy introduced an amendment to ensure armored Humvee production remained at maximum levels. As a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Senator Kennedy was successful in his efforts to pass Humvee-production legislation in 2003. However, mismanagement at the Pentagon had left production far short of what was needed to provide adequate security for U.S. troops. Senator Kennedy’s amendment boosted funding to put production back on track. In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, one of the worst natural disasters in the country's history, Senator Kennedy joined his Senate colleagues in passing emergency funding to assist in the recovery efforts. In addition, the Senator met face-to-face with relief organizations working to provide support to victims, and discussed with them the best ways to implement relief and support services for those affected by the tragedy. Senator Kennedy also sponsored and helped pass emergency education funding for schools impacted by Katrina, and introduced the bipartisan Gulf Coast Recovery and Preparedness Act.
Family Opportunity Act (allows parents of disabled children to go to work and earn above poverty wages without losing coverage for their children.)


These arent things he "worked on" these are things he personally introduced onto the Senate floor and pushed through.
Agree or disagree with his views, but the impact of his work on almost every single American is epic.

So in theory Hitler could of been fine if he had only lived long enough to do some good?

He left the scene of the crime. He hide and tried to cover it up. Based on her body position it was guessed she lived for 1 to 2 hours after the accident. He didnt stop by any house on way to talk to his lawyer buddies. He passed 4 house on way back to party. And at party next door was volunteer fire dept building. He had multiple times to go for help. Yet he was on phone making tons of calls to lawyers and handlers about what to do (he even called her parents) He even slept for 5 or so hours. And was acting as if nothing had happened dressed in his yatching closes chatting at the club (his buddy accused him of wanting to say she drove along and he wasnt there). And 9 hours later after the accident was discovered and he was confronted, then did he fess up.

When it happened it was a drunk driving accident and posibly man-slaughter. When he left and hide the knowledge it became murder. Also she didnt drowned she died of asfixation (the air pocket she clinged to for life became CO2 fill and all O2 was used up). And all covered up with money.

And to imply that back then they didnt care about drunk driving is lame. They couldnt charge him because he slept and waited half a day to sober up.

Teddy and his 2 lawyer buddies stories never fit together and changed a ton.

But hey he's a hero or something. Honoring is an embarasment to the party.

Maybe tonight be better for them

I am not old enough by about 10 years to even know details of this event, but i find as many conflicting information sources as i do that 9/11 was a setup.

I want to beleive the truth but the truth is only that 2 people know it. Driver and the passenger. The rest is all hearsay at best.

Based on the position....sorry i did a paper in college about criminal science. 1969 might as well been 1929. There is a HUGE leap forward in forensic abilites in my life time of 30 years.

To call Ted Kennedy "a murdering thug" is about the most asinine thing I have ever read.

Look at the man's life in total. Yea, Right Wing radio hosts want the only thing he is known for is the Chappquiddaq(?) thing.... but that is only an attempt to try to diminish the man's accomplishments.

Was it a horrible thing to do, getting drunk, crashing, and then swimming away to safety without saving his passenger?
Hell yes.

But you miss out the momumental achievements the man has accomplished since 1969.

There is nobody more respected by his fellow Senators on both sides of the aisle. There is a reason for that. He has worked tirelessly with people from both parties to pass legislation that has positively affected the lives of every single American.

No matter what else... his record has ensured his place as one the greatest Senators in US History.

Period.


I guess doing good afterward makes up for horror previously? Good to know. Also being accepted by a bunch of thieves and murderers is not really something I care to relish.

And oh yeah...that family is going to sue and take on the Kennedy's. Riiiiiiight.

I guess doing good afterward makes up for horror previously?

Yes. Redemption isn't exactly a new thing to society.

I guess doing good afterward makes up for horror previously? Good to know.


Legend has it there was once a man named Jesus who...

Remember, this is 1969, when they viewed that thing in a far different light than we do today.



There were a lot of things that were viewed differently back then than they are today. Excuse much?

There were a lot of things that were viewed differently back then than they are today. Excuse much?

Pick out one line and ignore everything else he said much?

Well, I just figured I'd turn the tables since it happens to me, quite a bit.

I'm interested in hearing the response, though....I'm espically interested in how murder (woman/manslaughter) was viewed differently back in 1969.

Drunk Driving was viewed differently. Not Manslaughter. And it wasnt an excuse, it was an explaination as to why events unfolded the way they did.

Drunk Driving was viewed differently.Yet another epic impact by the Teddy.

indeed.

As much as you may dislike him, Ted Kennedy has at least arguably done a lot of good for the people of Massachusetts and this country, especially through his work on the Committee of the Armed Services and his role as Chairman for Health and Education. He's got a bunch of negative qualities, but he's got some positive. I doubt the same can be said for someone as polarizing as say ... the Republican keynote speaker on Wednesday.