Ack. ~180 die, 1400 injured.

Such a fuckin' tragedy...my aunt and cousins live in Madrid, too...

--Cen

Yeah, very shitty thing to have happen.

It brought up the question (and for once I don't think I know the answer): Is Spain one of the nations helping the US in Iraq? I know La ETA was the lead suspect at first, but heard some stirrings that Islamic terrorists might be implicated somehow.

Hope your family members over there are OK.

Their foreign minister (I could have exact title wrong) said in one of his statements that this could have happened because of their "support for the US cause in Iraq."

Spain was an ally of the US with regards to Iraq from very early on.

It's a bloody stretch to believe it was anyone but ETA, a bloody stretch. There's too much evidence right now to be looking to any other organization, mainly identical bomb equipment to previous ETA attacks and the fact that a short period earlier the Spanish authorities had already intercepted the same some of thing by ETA: bombs on trains.
To suspect anyone else right now would be like putting 2 + 2 together and getting 77.

Doesn't fucking matter whether it was ETA or Al-Queda, it was an attack on western civilization and one of our closest allies on the war on terror.

Hunt them down, and kill them. No arrest warrants, this is war.

Oh, and I'm reading on some news reports that yesterday was 911 days since Sept 11, 2001. Seems close, true?

'Doesn't fucking matter whether it was ETA or Al-Queda, it was an attack on western civilization and one of our closest allies on the war on terror.'

- Put the vodka down, chiko.
It matters who it was, it matters a lot. How fucking stupid are you? If it was ETA, it wasn't an attack on western civilization, for one thing. And for once in your life, try to concieve the thought that something ISN'T about America and its precious "war on terror".

'Hunt them down, and kill them. No arrest warrants, this is war.'

- Hey it's Mr.Western Civilization. Unlike America, most of us civilizaed societies who have managed to progress beyond the stoneage, are actually concerned with human rights and a certain level of humanity in justice and truth. We don't have Guantanamo Bay's where we lock people up for years without trial or justification. Here, in civilized life, we do this thing called "investigations" where we "find out" who the "responsible parties" are and then we "arrest them" with "evidence" so that we can "prove" they "commited the act" in question. Then, they are treated to a "fair" and justified" trial" to which the "civilizaed society" in question punished them to their "own degree" of law. You see all those phrases in quotes? That was to outline the CRASY notions we have here in Europe.

'Oh, and I'm reading on some news reports that yesterday was 911 days since Sept 11, 2001. Seems close, true? '

- Didn't you JUST say it didn't matter who did it?
And wow.. 911 days since Sep 11th! It MUST be Al Qaede, forget the overwhelming evidence to the contrary:

news.bbc.co.uk (http://news.bbc.co.uk)

'Looking at the evidence that has emerged so far, those clues and precedents include:

the material in the bombs was an explosive used in previous Eta attacks

the attacks were not suicide bombings, but were carried out using remote-controlled detonations - again similar to previous Eta operations

Eta has apparently tried to blow up trains travelling to Madrid before - a previous attack was foiled on Christmas Eve last year and two Eta suspects were arrested

the bombings came three days before the Spanish general election - and over many years, Eta has chosen to stage attacks during election campaigns '

Maybe, maybe not. (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/12/spain.blasts/index.html)

Hmm, who knows? (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,114021,00.html)

I tend to agree with Halo that ETA is the more likely suspect. The whole "tape of the Koran and detonators" left behind in a stolen van otherwise clean of evidence seems like a plant to me. Could it be that ETA is trying to hurt the Spanish governement by making it look like Al-Qaeda did it in retaliation for Spanish support of the US? They would certainly benefit from such a perception.

The group supposedly claiming credit on behalf of Al-Qaeda has a history of claiming credit for things they did not do, such as the blackouts in the US a while back. Basically they are full of shit.

Get your ass out of your head Halo.

BBC: Europe Rethinks War on Terror (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3500958.stm)

*blinks*
OK? Nice coloumn? It's an entire "if" and "could mean" passage of writing full of "might" situations.

Were you like.. born this retarded?

Who exactly is the ETA? I haven't been following this closely so I don't really know.

Fucking acronyms. Next thing you know TCP/IP is gonna be claiming responsibility.

They are a militant group trying to carve out an independent country for the ethnic Basque population of Spain and France (with themselves in charge no doubt.) I forget what the initials stand for..they are not English words so I have a hard time remembering them.

Euskadi Ta Askatasuna, means basque land and freedom.

I do not think it was eta. They are terrorists, but they always followed a different tactics. They bombed exact personnels, officers, police, politicians, judges who made decisions against them. The innocent victims were always low on their attacks as far as I know. (an European terrorist force wont get any sympathy after amassacre, not even among the basques in my opinion.)

It is a departure from their prior tactics. They have recently been getting pretty hammered by the authorities in the last year or so...this could be a measure of their desperation or simply that different people are in charge now that others were arrested. It really can't be ignored that they were caught earlier in the year trying to do the same thing but on a lesser scale. I have also read that the authorities believe the forensics examination of the residue will show the bombs were made with a particular batch of explosives known to be used by the ETA.

It could very well be they have decided to emulate Al-Qaeda tactics

And for once in your life, try to concieve the thought that something ISN'T about America and its precious "war on terror".

That link to BBC clearly agrees with my views that it's not just "America's war on terrorism" as you so preciously pointed out.

You're a limp-wristed jerkoff with his head in the sand if you think serving arrest warrants is going to stop this from happening again. It's war you stupid fuck. Whether it's the ETA, PLO, Al-Queda, or some bum fucked redneck from Idaho with a fertilizer bomb in the back of a U-Haul, they want to wage a war against our civilians, not against hard targets like the 82nd Airborne Division.

This is war though, and war means killing the enemy before he kills you.

Wake the fuck up, because it looks like the rest of Europe is thinking we weren't too far off base with our war talk.

Well after the party dwindled a few years back after those major arrest opperations, the party was supposedlt dwindling down to half its numbers, so they think there was a reformation of leadership, and the "younger" more "idealistic" portion of the party gained control.
Attacks in France are few and far between, it's the Spanish who have had the brunt of it.

But, as with most of these situations, the result of the aggression was due to an old twat completing cutting off any representation and "voice" the party had in politics and government.. which, obviously, they didn't like very much, and who can blame them.

But yeah, the things that go against it being them is the nature of the attack, they usually warn authorities, and they don't target civilians as much. But it's hard to believe it could be an islamic terrorist group that have so many other targets that would appear to be much higher priority than Spain.

a wake up call to the rest of the world?

maybe then the world will relize we will not held hostage by some terrorist group... we should kill every last one of then, man woman or child. let world know that the free world will not accect any terrorism from anyone.

>>"we should kill every last one of then, man woman or child."

Are you, by any chance, a terrorist?
You sound like one. :(

Yes, we should fight terrorism. But we must to it in a civilized manner.

And there's another thing that we the west must do that is much more important in the fight against terrorism then actually fighting terrorists. And this goes for USA and EU alike.

We must stop supporting terrorism.
We must stop supporting despots and oppressors.

If the west hadn't supported the Shah, then Iran would have been a democracy since more then 50 years now, and the entire world would have been much better for it.

If the west hadn't supported, praised and TRAINED the Al Quida, then they wouldn't be able to carry out their disgusting blodshed today.

We want to forget it now, but we supported scum like Shah, Saddam Hussein and Usama Bin Ladin. We, or at least the "experts" advising our governments had delusions of grandeur, taking for granted that if we helped these scum murder innocents then they would be OUR scum, fighting only our enemies (that is, communism) and remain loyal to us. That plan was pure lunacy from the start. Scum is scum.

It is time to start fighting for democracy.
Like we should have done 50 years ago.

I can only think why Sapin instead of 'better' (US) targets. Participating in Iraq war put them into their focus.
I remember a report from last year when direct attack against spanish agents happened iraq (7-9 died).

If ETA did it they made a huge mistake. If islamics, then this is a new phase in their 'holy' war.

' we should kill every last one of then, man woman or child. let world know that the free world will not accect any terrorism from anyone. '

- And what, my retarded friend, would then seperate the "free world" from the terrorists?
I didn't think anyone would be as fucking stupid as to actually type the above.
You twat.

You can fight the terrorists in your own country, or you can fight them in THEIR country. I say lets take it to 'em as we have!

Al-Queda by its very nature isnt a group unto itself. It is a organization that pulls together various global terrrorist networks, and allows them to function more effiecently, using coordinated attacks, logistical aid, resources, training and whatever else aid they can lend.
Could this Basque seperatist group have reached out to Al-queda or visa versa? Its possible.

But seriously.. enough with this European notion of our actions have brought this on us.
These groups are not reactive. They are pro active. They have a vision of world wide jihad. The ultimate goal of which is to drive any foreign influence out of the Middle East. Once acomplished an effort to conslidate power and overthrow middle eastern regimes and replace them with Taliban style fundamentalist governments. The formation of these similar governments would be closely allied if not part of the same "nation" per se and would lead to the creation of a Arabic, fundamentalist superpower. One founded and controlled by Murderers.
Israel would be attacked, without a doubt.

remember this. What is the goal of Terrorism?
Simply, to cause Fear.
Fear weakens the resolve of people. Fear allows evil to go unchecked.
If every time we interfere with a middle eastern groups wishes and desires, our cities get hit by suicide bombers or jets crash into building or trains get blown up, and we withdraw from conflict out of fear. We have lost.
Once they learn they can achieve their wishes by using Terrorism as a political tool, they will use it again and again and again. It will encourage others to use it. Western nations who have a responsiblity to foster freedom on this planet will withdraw and allow forces of terror and murder free reign in whatever area they chose.

Terror groups must be sought out and eliminated where ever they exist. people who harbor them must be shown the error of their ways. If they hit, you hit back 10x as hard. 9/11s and Train Bombings need to make us stronger, more determined and more justified in the expression of our will.

Well I don't see any post here that has suggested the opposite, LL.
But if - and I think even you wouldn't stoop this low - that was in defense of the statement about killing women and children.. then get the fuck out.

But I'm sure it wasn't, as I said.

Right?

Good post, Lleauaric

I just need to ad one thing.
The terrorists are bloodthirsty monsters, but so are the regimes they wish to replace.

What little public support they have, they get it from these regimes supression of legitime dissent, and from the wests stupid policy to back these despots.

USA and EU should make clear to regimes like those of Saudi Arabia and Egypt that we don't tolerate them. That we are on the side of their populations, not on the side of their opressors. But instead, we cuddle these bloodstained tyrants. Calling them "strategic allies" and whatnot. This is, of course, a IDEAL recruitmentground for extremist groups that hate the west.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3509212.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3509212.stm)
I'll be damned. Moroccans and Indians?

'Mr Acebes said the men were believed to be linked with the sale and falsification of a mobile phone and SIM card found by police near one of the bomb blasts on Thursday.

The phone was inside a bag containing one of the bombs which failed to explode. '

Then it must be Al Qaeda. (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/13/spain.blasts/index.html)

Well i'll be damned.

It was Al-qaida.

Unfortunately, much as I wanted the Socialist party to win today's elections anyway, I can't help but feel that the terrorists won.

Wednesday, the right wing ruling party was about 8% ahead on the polls, today they lose the election by 5%.

The timing of the attacks, just 3 days before a general election, was no accident.

The coalition needed a war of invasion to bring down and replace Sadam's government in Iraq, but all islamic terrorist had to do was blow up 3 trains to bring down the Spanish government.

The new Government will most surely remove all our troops from Iraq, since it was an election pledge, but the commitment to fight islamic terrorism will remain, and if anything it will be stronger.

...and Spain just lost (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,114147,00.html) big time if the majority think like this guy:

"I wasn't planning to vote, but I am here today because the Popular Party is responsible for murders here and in Iraq," said Ernesto Sanchez-Gey, 48, who voted in Barcelona.

That's right, blame your Prime Minister instead of the terrorists for killing 200 of your citizens. What a piece of shit.

Their terrorism worked. :(

Not to mention the goverment lied to their citizens for political reasons only.

Or that this happened 3 days ago, I wonder how you would feel about your govt in part responsible for being a target to "more" terrorism (in case you didn't know, spain lives under ETA terrorism since... very long). Last drop?

Or that many spanish people still want to end terrorism (there is a quote in your article about that, did you read it?).

But you are probably right, a man who knew war and atrocities of it probably only blames his prime minister instead of the terrorists by voting against it, he's a piece of shit.

Digusting...

Most polls had the Popular Party winning before the bombing.

Terrorism has won the day in Spain. It has functioned as an effective political tool. It will not stop in Spain, and the repercussions will be terrible.

Do not adopt policies unfavorable to Al-Queda. You will be bombed, and then you will lose your next election.
Right now somewhere in a cave Osama Bin Laden is celebrating a succesful mission. The success was not in the killing, but in the ability of him to make change and determine the course of nations.

I feel horrible for the people of Spain. I am not angry that they voted a group of Socialists in, they will be dealing with the repercussions of that. I am actually afraid. Will elections involving leaders who adopt stances against Al-Queda, Pro Israel or allied to US now be target times for a group who now sees it can deliver for itself a huge political bonus with the use of Murder?
Spain is as much a target today with Socialist leadership as it was yesterday with Pro American.

Just give Hitler Austria... then he'll go away..

/boggle
OMFG!
Didn't think this would ever happen, but...
I agree with akpit.

We must blame the terrorists, and the terrorists only, for their foul deeds.

and the winner says:

"' we should kill every last one of then, man woman or child. let world know that the free world will not accect any terrorism from anyone. '"

The new Government will most surely remove all our troops from Iraq, since it was an election pledge, but the commitment to fight islamic terrorism will remain, and if anything it will be stronger.

so it will be just a commitment of rhetoric. Great.

'Terrorism has won the day in Spain. It has functioned as an effective political tool.'

- That, coming from an American, is funny in so many ways.

Halo. I told you a long time ago, you bore me. Stop trying to set bait. I dont give a shit about you enough to reply in any semi relevant way.
Just the same old broken record with you that has gotten far to old and yet just keeps playing on.

Kinda funny though.

Leftists on this board and elsewhere have been saying for MONTHS that Al-Queda had NOTHING to do with Iraq. Kinda odd how the tune changes when they have something to gain from it.

And I didn't know Spain had troops in Iraq. All this time I thought Bush acted unilaterally.

'I dont give a shit about you enough to reply in any semi relevant way.'

- Thank's for taking the time to reply to me.

'Leftists on this board and elsewhere have been saying for MONTHS that Al-Queda had NOTHING to do with Iraq. Kinda odd how the tune changes when they have something to gain from it.'

- How's that search for WoMD coming along?
Anywho, there still is no connection that Al-Quede had ANYTHING to do with Saddam Hussien and his regime, merely suggesting so because they're pissed off at the happenings in Iraq is about as stand-fast as Crist0's reason for living.
Flimsy and laughable at best.
I'd put a few English pounds on the reasoning that if America had invaded any country in the Middle East besides Iraq that they'd still be blowing the participating invaders up.. Simply because they're against Western intervention in the Middle East.

'And I didn't know Spain had troops in Iraq. All this time I thought Bush acted unilaterally. '

- No, he acted with illiteracy.
Hahaha. hah.. ha. /sigh

>>"Leftists on this board and elsewhere have been saying for MONTHS that Al-Queda had NOTHING to do with Iraq. Kinda odd how the tune changes when they have something to gain from it."

Of course the Al-Queda use the invasion of Iraq in their propaganda aganist the west. It doesn't mean that they and Hussein had any fond feelings whatsoever for eachother.

- How's that search for WoMD coming along?
Anywho, there still is no connection that Al-Quede had ANYTHING to do with Saddam Hussien and his regime...

MSNBC: Avoiding Attacking Suspected Terrorist Mastermind (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4431601/)

MSNBC claims that Bush didn't attack Al-queda's Abu Musab Zarqawi when we had "good" intelligence of his whereabouts before the invasion:

In June 2002, U.S. officials say intelligence had revealed that Zarqawi and members of al-Qaida had set up a weapons lab at Kirma, in northern Iraq, producing deadly ricin and cyanide.

June 2002, before we invaded and Al-queda was in Iraq producing a WMD? Oh tell me it ain't so!

Four months later, intelligence showed Zarqawi was planning to use ricin in terrorist attacks in Europe.
...
In January 2003, the threat turned real. Police in London arrested six terror suspects and discovered a ricin lab connected to the camp in Iraq.

Hmm, wonder how the London police knew to crash their little party?

I love it when the odd turnip rummages through every news site to pull up a document that's flimsy at best, in order to make the slightest connected point to their argument.
It's painful to watch.
But fuck is it fun to tear apart.


So, this document is about Abu Musab Zarqawi, a JORDANIAN terrorist, neither funded by, or known to be supported by Saddam Hussien and his regime.
But in face of that (I know, what's the point of going on anyway? For fun, I tell you), let's get started.

'In June 2002, U.S. officials say intelligence had revealed that Zarqawi and members of al-Qaida had set up a weapons lab at Kirma, in northern Iraq, producing deadly ricin and cyanide.
'

- Oh my. The same intelligence officials (both British and American) that are responsible for a string of, perhaps, the most humiliating false intelligence gathering for.. well.. ever? Two words: David Kelly. Anywho, so this Jordanian terrorist set up a supposed lab with supposed Al-Qaida members (who?) and supposedly developed deadly ricin cyanide? Meh? Vauge much? Isn't Kirma Kurdish territory anyway? We also have the IRA with numerous terrorist HQ's in England, but I'm *slightly* certain we're not funding them.
So this document has not said anything about a Saddam and Al-Qaida connection/funding/support, or presented any proof that such activities existed with the exception of a phrase "intelligence revealed". Are we even allowed to call it intelligence anymore? Allow me to coin the new phrase: Stupidity.
"Welcome to the 9 'o clock news. British and American Stupidity revealed today that Iraq has a frightening stockpile of WoMD that could be fired deployed and used within 45 minutes...It also has the magic ability to dissapear in to thin air when hunted by Western powers."

'In January 2003, the threat turned real. Police in London arrested six terror suspects and discovered a ricin lab connected to the camp in Iraq.'

- They mean the FIVE men arrested for attempting to develop Ricin in a London flat? Who have been neither convicted nor have any links to Zarqawi or his supposed Iraqi Ricin Lab? Or, certainly none I can find. Perhaps they have some inside-knowledge which the rest of the world don't appear to know about? Did the Ricin grains have "Made in Iraq by Zarqawi" written on them?

'The Pentagon drew up still another attack plan, and for the third time, the National Security Council killed it.'

- Why, when the Government surely saught every possible exploit to justify the notion that Iraq had mass stockpiles of WoMD, would they not only ignore this information and "camp", reject the idea of attacking it, but also keep it under total wraps from the public? It seems also to conflict with everything else that suggests there are no WoMD in Iraq, no dangerous biological or chemical agents.
Odd that, eh.

'The United States did attack the camp at Kirma at the beginning of the war, but it was too late — Zarqawi and many of his followers were gone'

- And the lab and Ricin dissapeared in to thin air along with the other thousands of WoMD? Of course! How foolish we've all been to think otherwise.

So there you have it.
A document that suggests nothing about WoMD, nothing about Al-Qaede and Saddam links, nothing about Saddam regime supporting terrorism, nothing even remotely close to proof or evidence, and a lot of false and contradictory, and in some points - painfully illogical - statements, supported by Stupi..err.. "intelligence".


Any other "evidence" which suggests that Saddam Hussien supported Al-Qaede and that he also had WoMD?
No?
Good. I've had fun. We should do this again some time, over a coffee. Perhaps a meal. Or a movie. Maybe you can come back to my place and I can put on some Barry White.. and maybe we get a bit drunk.. and.. Oh sorry. Forgot where I was.

Chow.