WTF?

No one is talking about it at all?

On an interesting note, Michael Moore, the guy who refuses to do any interviews the host doesn't kiss his ass in, got cornered by Bill O'Reilly.

There were ground rules of course, they each got to ask the other a question in turns and no editing of the interview. I highly recommend it, a good show of how uneducated Moore really is(he got his ass handed to him).

Priceless.

On a different note, I watched Barak Obama speak, and I have to say..wtf is wrong with democrats?

The guy was an incredible orator and has more charisma than Edwards and Kerry put together...why didn't Kerry pick him for a VP?

Shit, there were more Obama signs in the audience than Kerry signs.

do you have a link to the O'Reilly interview?

Have not watched a minute. I have no plans to watch my GOP convention either. Back in the day when these conventions actually had to pick a delegat they ment alot more. Now a days the candidate is well known prior tot he convention. Leaving only a pep rally. BORING! I would have loved to see the O'rielly/Moore interview. I knew about, but I forgot amidst the evenings honey do's...=)

Heh O'Reilly's just as much of a douche bag as Moore is, just happens to be on the opposite side of the political spectrum.

Not quite.

I dunno. I used to check out his show from time to time, and it's pretty appalling. Everytime his 'guest' disagrees with him, he just cuts their mic. It's retarded. =p

Even so, he doesn't seem to me at least like a Moore equivalent on the opposite side.

They're both extremely misleading and biased men who are somehow able to wake up in the morning, set their shame aside, and pretend to be journalists.

Hmm, I'll offer up a few points I've seen .. only watched a bit of Gore and Carter though.

Gore was "This won't be a speech about the past" and then he spoke about the past for about 5 minutes, then he finally got around to mentioning Kerry's name for the first time. Then he talked about the past some more.

Carter looked old, but I only hope to live half his age. Anyway, he bitched constantly about Bush without actually saying his name. What happened to the "positive" message Dems were going to bring? He even bitched about Bush's preemption policies, and ten seconds later bitched that we weren't doing enough about North Korea... which of course we all know was his fault altogether that they have nukes now. Woot.

It's apparently a big yawner anyway. Drudge has Dan Rather saying "We'd have better ratings if we ran test patterns" or something to that effect. That's not good for Kerry if he was wanting that bounce in the polls he didn't get from his VP pick.

The convention is being over shadowed by this NASA space suit thing, where he didn't even comment on our country's space policy. Guess some NASA nerd got niffed about that and "leaked" those photos to the AP. We now know Kerry can't pitch for shit because of his "suprise" appearance at the Red Sox / Yankees game where he got as many boos as cheers. And then we have his wife who is a ticking time bomb and gives a pre-convention speech about civility in politics and 2 minutes later pokes a journalist in the chest and tells him to "shove it" or "shut up" (conflicting accounts) It's all quite hilarious.

All in all, I'm not surprised. Two more days though, what can possibly go wrong now? :D

O'Reilly is definitely opinionated, but I can't see putting him in the same category as Moore. Limbaugh .... maybe Moore and Limbaugh are a better match. O'Reilly gets a bum rap really. Sure he has a bias, but so does Dan Rather. At least O'Reilly doesn't try to disguise it. Besides... he gets his butt handed to him once in awhile on his show too.

O'Reilly is opinionated, and he does bully his guests a bit overmuch(and sometimes not enough, depending on how close their views match his) but he cuts them off only when they start to go into their bits usually. If he was as bad as you claim he wouldn't get return guests like he does(including democrats).

Here is the link btw:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,127236,00.html

The video is there and the transcript as well.

And as a turning point to the convention Kerry's wife spoke..and bombed( a real classy lady btw, what was that last week where she told a reporter interviewing her to "shove it"?).

I tell ya, democrats need to fire their political strategists.

I didn't get to see tonight's speeches, as I was moving my kitchen across town (I would have liked to have seen Obama, as I've heard a lot about him but not actually seen him live), but I did get to see Clinton's speech last night. Hillary's intro speech was both strident and tedious, as usual, but Bill's speech was... fabulous. He was incredibly smooth, pleasant, and entertaining to listen to, as he always is, and the portion of his speech where he portrayed the Democratic party as being both centrist and inclusive, whereas the Republicans 'needed a divided America', as he put it, was particularly effective imho (if somewhat counter to the line Kerry has been using recently). My only worry was that Clinton is *so* charismatic, and the speech was so good (and I'm guessing that both Obama's and Edwards' speeches will be quite good as well), that Kerry is going to seem like a real nothing in comparison unless he really surprises us...

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Past Coercer - Autonomous Collective

I hate Michael Moore, but that O'Reilly debate was lame. They were both jabbering at each other, without either side making much sense at all. The end of it being especially retarded. "I want you to die!" "No, wait. I want you to live." *shake hands*

The Ron Reagan interview with Moore made me want to strangle him (if I could actually fit my hands around his throat). What a dick.

I didn't see anything tonight, regarding the ron reagan/michael moore interview, who did you want to strangle? I think I can guess...

Regards,
Nydia

Centrist and inclusive lol. With Jimmy Carter sitting next to Michael Moore, and Al Gore still squawking about how the election was stolen from him. I wonder if they get together with Moore and talk about how to destroy capitalism?

Obama is pretty popular with conservatives though.

I didn't see anything tonight, regarding the ron reagan/michael moore interview, who did you want to strangle? I think I can guess...
Moore. He went on and on for the first half of the interview about how much money his movie was making, comparing it to ... Around the World in 80 Days.

On a different note, I watched Barak Obama speak, and I have to say..wtf is wrong with democrats?

The guy was an incredible orator and has more charisma than Edwards and Kerry put together...why didn't Kerry pick him for a VP?He's a relative newcomer to the political scene from what I understand. Give it 4 or 8 years, though, and if he doesn't fuck up some how he might make the ticket.
And as a turning point to the convention Kerry's wife spoke..and bombed( a real classy lady btw, what was that last week where she told a reporter interviewing her to "shove it"?).She must have gone to the Dick Chaney School of Propriety.

A month back or so on Memorial Day I had *heard* that Kerry flicked off a Vietnam veteran, but then again I never saw an article or anything. Happened supposedly at the wall after a man criticized Kerry's part in Vietnam. Anyone else have any info on this?

There's a KGB agent that says that all the stuff that Kerry and his bunch was saying during Vietnam was the exact stuff they were manufacturing and leaking out into Europe to try and turn the world sentiment against the US in Vietnam. They should have had Hanoi Jane and John on the payroll.

Hell Thormir, Edwards is a newcomer to the political scene..from what I've seen just flipping through after watching him speak Obama has more experience than he does.

As for the Dick Cheney bit..well I don't think he's ever told anyone interviewing him to fuck off.

That's the only thing I did admire about Clinton. No matter how much of a blithering fool he may have been, he was always entertaining to watch. Charisma is unfortunately much too powerful a force.

As for O'rielly, he -is- a douche bag...but he's a well informed one.

I saw an interview with the guy that she told to shove it. She was refusing to answer his question because when he first phrased it to her he made a minor misquote so she kept telling him she didnt say that.

Her answer prompted the following exchange:


Trib: "What did you mean?"

Heinz Kerry: "I didn't say that. I didn't say that."

Trib: "I was just asking what you said."

Heinz Kerry: "Why do you put those words in my mouth?"

Trib: "You said something about 'un-American activity.'"

A Kerry campaign worker attempted to stop the questioning.

Heinz Kerry: "No, I didn't say that, I did not say 'activity' or 'un-American.' Those were your words."

She walked away, paused, consulted with an associate and returned to this editor.

Heinz Kerry: "Are you from the Tribune-Review?"

Trib: "Yes I am."

Heinz Kerry: "Understandable. You said something I didn't say -- now shove it."

The Sun reporter, Washington correspondent Julie Hirschfeld Davis, thought Heinz Kerry had said only "shut up." But a review of a videotape shot by WTAE-TV confirms Heinz Kerry used the phrase "shove it."

A review of an audiotape recording made by Patriot-News political reporter Peter DeCoursey shows that Heinz Kerry used the term "un-American traits."

Returning to reporters after Heinz Kerry left, Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell confirmed the "un-American" comment and attempted to put into context what John Kerry's wife at first said unclearly and then partially denied saying at all. "She said there were some un-Pennyslvania and un-American things creeping into politics," he said, talking of the "nastiness," "viciousness" and "the attempt to make everything personal."


How.... ironic that whole thing is. Its like... yeah we there's just too much nastiness in politics and division going on... oh and SHOVE IT!

As much as I'd like to see Kerry lose the election....from that I can't really blame her. It's a bit naive on her part to think that politics is anything but nastiness and as the wife of a presidential candidate you have a responsibility to act cordially to even the scum of the Earth so long as they're not breaking the law...but I don't blame her.

Yeah its hard to blame her. I mean... how dare somehow question something SHE said.

After reading the transcript of Moore vs O'Rielly I agree with ********, it was lame at best. I don't like Moorer but he didn't get "owned" like I'm hearing...

I did watch Carter's speech at the convention (on TV).... basically they are harping on this "Bush LIED to us!!" theme..... that won't fly with the peeps of the USA....

I also saw that since the convention Bush is now ahead in polls for the first time since april/may..... that bodes terrible for the Dems....

And to top all of that off, the Electoral College is now looking strong for Bush. The article read that if Kerry loses Penn and Florida its pretty much over...

And on a final note... is that O'Frankin Factor radio show still on? I have never heard it but the last thing mentioned that I heard was they were late paying their bills (and it was like month #1 of the show).

On the radio last night I heard someone commenting on Bill Clintons speech. He quoted Bill Clinton saying Kerry said "SEND ME!" to serve in Vietnam, "SEND ME!" on that dangerous mission up the river to draw enemy fire.... but what he didn't say is kerry said "SEND ME!" home from 'Nam after serving less than 4 months of his tour....

Clinton also said that Cheney, Bush, and himself hadn't gone to Vietnam.... as Kerry did. But he glosses over the part that Cheney and Bush wore the uniform where as Clinton went to England..... Ya gotta love the Demo's.

Are you attacking Clinton's patriotism?

After reading the transcript of Moore vs O'Rielly I agree with ********, it was lame at best. I don't like Moorer but he didn't get "owned" like I'm hearing...
I am a conservative and a Bush supporter, but I think Bill dropped that ball on this one. He was not able to respond to "Bush lied!" with "No, he made a decision on based on the best information possible, and shared that information with the public." And Bill looked bad by not just responding to "Would you send your child to die in Fallujah" with "I can't force an adult - my child or your child - to do fight in any war. But if my child were to volunteer to serve in the armed forces, I would support that decision. I would hope and trust that the Government take every possible step to stop my child from dying. This includes preemptively removing threats on foreign soil when they are identified."

But then, I've had time to think about it...

I kept wanting him to say something like that while I was watching it.

It was as frustrating as watching a bad horror movie and wanting to yell "DON'T GO INTO THE BASEMENT!". Ugh.

Anyone know how to record a voicemail message from a cellphone to a .wav file? My buddy Josh is covering the convention for the National Journal and he got Howard Dean to leave me a voice mail message which is pretty funny. (yeah, Josh is kinda jouvenile like that) Most of it focused on how I voted for Nader last year and it ended with Dean screaming at me :) I want to upload it so you guys can hear it.

For the person who asked - Yes, the Al Franken show is still running on Air America - in fact, I'm listening to it right now as I pack (he is playing some excerpts from the Obama speech last night and doing commentary atm). I haven't seen the latest ratings from the show, but it would seem that they're managing to pay their bills so far...

Regards,
Nydia

No argument that Edwards isn't a grizzled veteran. He's been a senator for what, 1 term? Does Obama have even that much experience? I don't really know much about him, except that all reports place him as a rising star for the Dems. Thing is, Edwards ran a campaign, got his face out across the nation, earned fair ratings, may have been perceived as someone able to bring in the southern vote, has a rags-to-riches kind of background, charisma and great hair. Obama is a relative unknown, but is someone the Dems justifiably want to introduce the American people -- thus his airtime at the convention. I wish I'd seen his speech; I don't know much about him.

it would seem that they're managing to pay their bills so far...Last I heard Al O'Franken is working O'free, in otherwords no O'paycheck.

Heh Bise,
Pretty much all Bush DID was wear the uniform. No actual service was required.

And as far as the ratings. >shrug< Dont expect the Republicans to be any better. Most people watch the cable networks for this stuff, and its on 4 or 5 different channels at the same time. What percentage of people without cable care about politics anyway?

I thought it was awesome that Theresa Heinz Kerry told some asshole to shove it. OMG, a woman who isnt afraid to not be subsurvient and demeur. RUN! She should learn to be more of a colorless wallflower like Laura Bush.

Obama was awesome, this man will be president in 2012. Or if Kerry loses, (which I dont think is possible at this point, the kiss of death for Bush was not carrying 50%+ into the conventions. Ive heard several predictions for record numbers to turn out to vote this year. The tight race combined with the HUGE impact that "unlikely" voters are going to make will lead to an early night in november.) Vice president to Hillary (blech) in 2008.

One way to look at it, Vote Kerry to avoid Hillary in 2008.

And I like OReilly, he is a bit of a blowhard, but he is defintly his own man, and Im not really a Moore fan, but the debate between the 2 was pretty much a draw. Kind of like a boxing match at the special olympics.

[QUOTE=Lleauaric]Heh Bise,
Pretty much all Bush DID was wear the uniform. No actual service was required.

And as far as the ratings. >shrug< Dont expect the Republicans to be any better. Most people watch the cable networks for this stuff, and its on 4 or 5 different channels at the same time. What percentage of people without cable care about politics anyway?QUOTE]


I still find a big difference in that and protesting against his own government but to each his own.

There has been no "bounce" from the convention yet but then again its not overwith.... Kerry is running out of time to win this race imo.

What percentage of people without cable care about politics anyway?
Um, probably a fairly large portion of rural America? I know cable was never available where I lived, growing up, but the people out there were fierce Democrats.

We can make a couple suppositions about the swing voters (who, at this point, will be the deciding factor for this election).

1) Independents will vote based on their perceptions of the candidates, not necessarily their positions or plans on Iraq, terrorism, the economy, etc.

2) For many independents, voting for Kerry is less a vote for Kerry than a vote against the incumbent.



Kerry's best chance at gaining votes following the convention seems, to me at least, to depend on the disasters or successes of economic and (especially) foreign developments. Iraq slipping further into hell (or, at least, if it's perceived that way) means fewer votes for Bush and, perhaps, more votes for Kerry. The next President may then be determined less by what the candidates do during the next few months than what happens on the domestic and world scene and the vagaries of the electoral college.

Kerry doesn't have to do much more than present a good image (i.e., work on perceptions), whereas Bush has to hope that the rush to November doesn't include a catastrophe or further chaos in Iraq. Even if he handles such a situation ably, the perception that these problems happened during his Presidency could hamper his re-election enough to grant Kerry the win.

i just watched that movie, man moore comes off as a major idiot

Bit Torrents of the stuff on this thread...

The O'Reilly "debate" with Moore: http://208.37.27.97/sn2//torrents/2276/The%20OReilly%20Factor%20-%20Michael%20Moore%20Interview.wmv.torrent

The Ron Reagan interview: http://208.37.27.97/sn2//torrents/2269/Michael%20Moore%20Interview%20@%20Democratic%20Con vention%20by%20Ron%20Reagan.wmv.torrent

Boy thats big news... the swing vote will decide the election? Wow amazing.

"Independents" aren't waiting to see if things go bad for Bush. He's been in office for 4 years and if their opinions arent formed they wont be. What they're waiting for is to learn more about Kerry. If Kerry has a catastrophe, Bush will get the bump... if Kerry can make any sort of a positive impression in the next few months... he's the next President.

Shes a rude bitch to a reporter after making a speech about taking the rancor out of politics and LL says sweet look shes not demure (had to assume thats what you meant by demeur.) The guy wasnt being rude to her he just was asking her a question she didn't want to answer and she lashed out. You dont have to be a cunt to be empowered. Honestly I don't think its some tragedy that she did that but at very least she was being a complete hypocrit.

The problem with Obama moving up toward the presidency is that the left completely rules that party. If Obama is to move into contention he'll have to do it from the ground up and snake past Hillary. Ask Lieberman. Look at what happened with Dean... he was the party's darling, Clark was the Clintons' choice. Kerry came out of the pack because he was taking the more moderate stance and thats what folks are looking for. Its the same with both parties though... you have to play the center and wink at the base.

I dont think it will be "Swing Voters" at all.
Polls measure one thing.. "likey voters". ie people who have voted in past elections.
This election will be largest voter turnout in about 40 years. People are interested, motivated and invested.

"Independents" aren't waiting to see if things go bad for Bush. He's been in office for 4 years and if their opinions arent formed they wont be.My post was entirely geared to the people who have yet to form their opinions, the "swing vote" that will decide this race. These people base their votes on subjective perceptions or the flow of events. Sure, they'll look for positive things from Kerry, like I said, but I feel that events affecting the current administration have more weight.
If Obama is to move into contention he'll have to do it from the ground up and snake past Hillary.Hopefully he steamrolls over her. I just can't picture her holding the Presidency, or VP for that matter, unless the Republicans can't find a viable candidate.

Nobody could picture Dole as president either, but he muscled his way to the front. I still have to disagree about the swing voters... they know all about Bush by now. They're Kerry's to lose. He's to much of a politician to screw this up. The only real hope Bush can look to other than a miracle at this point is if in the debates Kerry makes himself look as wooden and rehearsed as Gore.

I dunno, I could always see Dole as President. But I think I like him better as a Viagra spokesman.

http://giam.typepad.com/cartoons_caricatures/images/doles.jpg

Good thing she was president of the American Red Cross.

Pretty much all Bush DID was wear the uniform. No actual service was required.

Yeah, and our hero Kerry volunteered for swift boat service because at the time he did it they did coastal patrol and it was one of the safest jobs.

Then of course their mission changed to river patrols..and what do you know, he scratches his arm a couple times and gets out of it early on a technicality.

Of the people in his unit, that Kerry likes talk about supporting him...


[From] ALVIN A. HORNE
Attorney at Law
Houston, Texas

[To] Marc Erik Elias, Esquire
General Counsel
John Kerry for President, Inc.

RE: Photograph on pages 24 and 25, Newsweek issue dated March 8, 2004 and Kerry Campaign Lifetime Ad dated May 3, 2004.

June 1, 2004

Dear Mr. Elias:

I'm a former Swift Boat officer and early member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. I am also an attorney licensed and authorized to practice law in the State of Texas. Below are listed the names of eleven Swift Boat officers of a total of 20 depicted in the referenced photograph with your client, Senator John Kerry. They are:

George Bates
Thomas Heritage
Terrance Costello
Robert "Rocky" Hildreath
Robert Elder
William Houle
George Elliott
William Schumadine
Al French
Larry Thurlow
Jim Galvin

These officers demand that Senator Kerry's campaign cease and desist from all uses of that photograph, taken on January 22, 1969. To my knowledge, of the remaining eight individuals, Mr. Gilbert and Mr. Crosby are deceased and Messrs. Baker, Bernique, Imbrie and MaCann have not indicated a willingness to presently take any position regarding Mr. Kerry.

First, the use of the eleven images in this political campaign wrongfully and incorrectly suggests their present endorsement of his candidacy for President of the United States of America. By letters delivered to the campaign on May 17 and on May 4, 2004, their objections to the use of the photograph in his campaign and their belief that he is unfit to serve as the Commander-in-Chief were made very clear. In fact, as has long been evident to Senator Kerry, all of these gentlemen have felt anything but comradeship with him at any time since his slanderous testimony before Congress in 1971 and other pronouncements that he and they committed war crimes and atrocities. These pronouncements were at least made in Mr. Kerry's book, New Soldier, repeated in Tour of Duty and affirmed as late as Senator Kerry''s appearance on Meet the Press in April of this year. In that process he tarred the entire serving military in Vietnam with his black brush.

Second, no prior consent was sought or obtained from any of these eleven boat officers before the release by Mr. Kerry or his associates of that photograph to Newsweek, or later to those who crafted his Lifetime ad, a calculated invasion of their privacy rights for personal political gain. None of these officers, at the time of the unauthorized release or any subsequent use of the photograph by the campaign of their images were public figures, as that term is understood within the law. We all know of the aspiring politician who seeks to be photographed with whomever they think is the "Great One" of the time. In this case Mr. Kerry has reversed the ploy to suggest a favorable relationship different than the truth. In no way do these gentlemen seek any limelight not now required by the Senator''s distortion of the past and his wrongful claim to the American public that these men are his band of brothers.

Lest anyone yawn and be tempted to write this demand off to political hyperbole during the election season, please convey to Senator Kerry that his blatant and continued corrupt use of this photograph is at least on par with successful claims made by individuals suing commercial advertisers for non-consented use of their images. They sought profit in dollars; he seeks profits in votes.

I look forward to Senator Kerry's immediate compliance with the essence of this demand. If that compliance is not forthcoming or if I fail to receive any satisfactory writeleven response from you within eleven days of the date of this letter, then further appropriate action will be taken

Respectfully,
Alvin A. Horne

er..yeah.



One way to look at it, Vote Kerry to avoid Hillary in 2008

Hillary will never have any real shot at it, idle threat.

I have to say I enjoyed the Edwards speach tonight.

Talked about how they weren't going to raise taxes, then in the same sentence explain how they are going to raise taxes.

Talk about how Bush was too quick to adopt a military solution...then talk about how they plan on using the military to go after terrorists.

Great stuff.

If dems had half a clue they'd start lining up a Lieberman/Obama ticket for 08 right now..then they would actually have a ticket that would make me think seriously about voting for their party's candidates.

I thought it was kind of risky to use Edwards the way they did tonight. One of his main points was to contrast their goal to keep jobs in America, and how the republicans don't punish companies that outsource jobs with higher taxes. If you ask me that's like saying "Hi we're hoping you all are dumb enough to continue allowing us to scare you with this issue because we're having a hard time finding other ways to scare you about the economy." Funny that I haven't heard to much whining about the environment yet... polling must have told them no one cares this year. Otherwise they'd be ranting about the permafrost melt.

The more I hear exactly what Kerry has said about the atrocities he committed and he witnessed and what went on in Vietnam, the more he freaks me out. You know he talks about how he and the mysterious 150 vets who got together and talked about their Vietnam experience committed rapes, murder, genocide, burning villages, torture, blah blah blah. He says that he destroyed villages and murdered random people in free fire zones and did horrible things.... because he was ordered to. If he was so against the things that he did there though, why did he go back to the scenes of all these crimes he committed and take 8mm home movies bragging about what he did and proudly reenacting it? His whole political career hinges around his pride in his service in Vietnam... murdering innocent people. My dad was in the Navy in Vietnam. He never got anywhere near the fighting, but he told me his buddies down at the VFW have never been big on Bush, until Kerry showed up.

It is becoming more and more amusing how Kerry is failing to get a bounce in polls from the convention.

I'm just sick and tired of coverage of it on AFN, they show the highlights from the different news channels, so we see hours and hours of non-stop Kerry and Edwards ass grabbing action.

L2....

You state that Bush is going to lose with such certainty. And yet Kerry is losing ground in the polls during his own parties Convention. He didn't manage a spike in the polls even when he announced his running partner.

He still hasn't a platform that anyone , his own party included, can stand on.

Infact, I wager that Kerry would be better off in the polls if he just stayed totally out of the public eye till the election. The more he talks the worse off he is.

Kerry is going to lose, and lose by greater than 7% methinks.

Fandros

Fanny,

I wish I could find the article on the Electoral College that shows the big upswing Bush is getting in the 'battle ground' states like in the Nevada area etc... I think it was on MSN but I can't find it atm... still retracing my steps.

Its the best news for Bush in 6 months IMO.

the fact you're having a hard time finding the article shows you how liberal the media is. no, that's not news :rolleyes: but then again, kerry/edwards means "hope is on the way". we'll all have rainbows and sunshine and puppy dogs and lollipops!!!

Aye, I have MSN as my home page (looking for a new one), and everyday there's always 2 or more articles about how great the Kerry/Edwards campaign is. Stuff like "Politics of Hope" and "Upbeat Kerry". It's really irritating.

Actually Bise I've been following , via TV News, that very same thread of info.

Kerry is losing HUGE ground. Infact I highly doubt he can recover the electoral ground he's lost.

But you won't hear that from CNN...

Fandros

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=avb6A0STLapQ&refer=us

http://www.usatoday.com/news/polls/tables/live/2004-07-25-battleground-poll.htm

http://www.thehill.com/news/072904_late/hispanic.aspx

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=arl3qUG_uPSk&refer=top_world_news

http://www.the-ohioan.com/word.html (important one)

I think people are really starting to think about his admitted war crimes.


There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.


I mean, you know, we--it was--I mean, we've got to put this war in its right perspective and time helps us do that. I believe very deeply that it was a noble effort to begin with. I signed up. I volunteered. I wanted to go over there and I wanted to win. It was a noble effort to try to make a country democratic; to try to carry our principles and values to another part of the world. But we misjudged history. We misjudged our own country. We misjudged our strategy. And we fell into a dark place. All of us. And I think we learned that over time. And I hope the contribution that some of us made as veterans was to come back and help people understand that.

I think our soldiers served as nobly, on the whole, as in any war, and people need to understand that. There were great sacrifices, great contributions. And they came back to a country that didn't thank the veteran,

Gee with Kerry back here calling them murderers, rapist and babykillers... I wonder why. Now he says if he had it to do over again he would have chosen his wording more carefully. Umm okay. While you're at it maybe go back and don't be a war criminal.

LL,

Okay I read over most of the posts you listed.... basically Bush is winning in Florida, Kerry in Ohio and its a dead heat in Missouri.

The article on hispanic voters was interesting but Bush still has a lock on the majority of the hispanic vote in FLA. While Kerry is just gaining ground (not surpassing) on Bush in states like Nev Ariz etc...

And I would like to point out that all this is in the face of the Democratic Convention which would normally get the proverbial "bounce". So, I extrapelate that no 'bounce' thus far AND things are still looking decent for Bush. Maybe after the speech tonight there will be a surge.

I heard Mary Madaline (sp) say that there isn't much *elasticity* in the electorate atm (gotta love the jargin) but it still doesn't bode well for Kerry.

Also in the last article it basically said that you can't trust polls. Well, in general I tend to agree that they aren't as accurate as we think BUT when the polls you linked are put out by CNN (a liberal/demo slanted entity) ya gotta wonder just how bad it looks (ie not so bad for Bush).

Basically the info I found interesting was the polling done that wasn't just random but was directed more toward how the electoral college would unfold. Bush has gained ground over the last 6 month no matter what poll you use.

All in all it is not a slam-dunk for either of these candidates. Anything can happen in the last three months .... who ever gets a lead had better not sit on it or they will be sorry.

Anyway L2 thanks for digging up some articles I appreciate you point of view.

Pretty much all Bush DID was wear the uniform. No actual service was required.
There are about 55k National Guardsman fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq right now, does that mean the other 100k left on active duty back in the United States are inconsequential? I am astonished at the ignorance, your a real patriot.

"I'm John Kerry, and I'm reporting for duty." <salute>

I'm split between applauding the theatrics of the gesture and gagging at them.

/agree Thormir :)

I thought he did a much better job in the latter part of the speech, once he got rolling on what specifically he would do re appointments, the military, taxes, etc. Kerry is a serious personality by nature and his attempts at warm and fuzzy 'candor' fall flat, imho. I think that, overall, he did a good job at making his case, came across as both sincere and passionate, and I was, frankly, relieved given both his lack of presence thus far on the campaign trail and John Edwards' very 'staged' feeling performance last night (I was, shall we say, underwhelmed by Edwards' speech last night, which gave me the rather eerie feeling I was in a substandard 'Law and Order' episode. That man really needs to shake the trial lawyer, pause-heavy delivery...).

I think that events outside the campaign over the next couple of months are more likely to sway the election than the personalities and campaigns themselves, but I think that Kerry definitely defined himself, his goals, and the differences between what he offers versus what 4 more years of Bush offers the public tonight, and breathed some life into his campaign. It'll be interesting to see what the Republican attack dogs come out with tomorrow... :)

Regards,
Nydia

His speech definitely improved as it went. I thought his daughters did well; speeches and such leading up to his appearance were pretty good. I don't know that it'll persuade a whole lot of people (we'll see what the polls say), but I doubt it disuaded anyone.

I just want to see some debates, personally.

I'm split between applauding the theatrics of the gesture and gagging at them
Gagging.

What a way to show how fake he is.


I thought he did a much better job in the latter part of the speech, once he got rolling on what specifically he would do re appointments, the military, taxes, etc.
Once he decided to stop ranting about womens lib and the civil rights movement in order to address actual current issues you mean?

It really did show what he stands for:

He talks about how he plans on raising taxes and eliminating tax incentives - and then goes on to talk about how he is going to invest in new jobs!

He went into how there weren't enough troops in Iraq and later promised to increase the size of the military while in the same sentence saying he wouldn't increase the size of the force we have in Iraq.

He called on Bush to run a respectful campaign, after spending 1/4 of his speech calling accusing the current administration of everything from accepting bribes from "polluters" to that tired and widely disproven line about lying to invade Iraq.

This is one of the better lines, about insurance costs:


You know what's happening. Your premiums, your co-payments, your deductibles have all gone through the roof
His running mate is a trial lawyer!

Why does he think insurance costs have gone through the roof?


I especially enjoyed the bit where he admitted that the economy is doing great, even if he did do it indirectly!


They say this is the best economy we've ever had. And they say that anyone who thinks otherwise is a pessimist. Well, here is our answer: There is nothing more pessimistic than saying America can't do better

I've always thought presidential debates were pretty boring. Back in 2000, Gore and Bush were so concerned with their images (and rightly so, I guess ;p), they never really took much of a stance on any issue; it was all a bunch of misleading mumbo jumbo.

I thought that the vice presidential debates were great, though. Cheney and Leiberman were both pretty argumentative, as opposed to their appearance-conscious running mates. I'm more psyched to see how those will turn out than the presidential debates.

From what little I remember of Kerry's speeches and such (as a resident of Massachusetts) his sense of humor never shone through well. He's certainly not the same charismatic personality that Clinton was when he was running. However, he is an intelligent man that can do a lot of good for this country. He's not Jimmy Carter arrogant (not listening to anyone because you're a super genius didn't work) and i'd be willing to bet he'd surround himself with people that are able to guide and advice him on issues without totally dominating his decisions.

However, I wish he had chose Al Sharpton as a running mate based solely upon how outrageously funny a Senator President that man would be.

I think that by following the Lincoln formula of a divided America to win the election is going to hurt both candidates. And I fear that most independant / apathetic voters will just not vote because they don't feel they were listened to by the man they want to vote for. Sadly Kerry's #1 trait among (most) young voters is that he isn't Bush. And is that enough to get them to the polls in November? I don't know if it is and because of this I feel that it will be four more years of Bush. And I am totally rambling now since I drank this cup of coffee from starbucks and can't sleep. fuck

I honestly tried to watch Kerry's speech last night. I made it through his "I was, honestly, born in the west wing" joke. We'll not discuss why he had to say "honestly" (maybe someone else should) but that was one of the lamest jokes I've ever heard. My girlfriend refused to watch anymore after that and I obliged her happily.

Overall he did a much better speech than I thought he would.... most of the points made thus far I agree with but it was great to hear he is gunna give the middle class a tax cut..... right.

The press is gunna eat him alive for that speech. Once I get to look at a transcript I will re-post some thoughts but while I was watching it I was making mental notes of all the targets he painted on his back. The next few days should be fun.

I do , however, expect a bounce now. The speech was filled with rhetoric but it was much better than I hoped it would be.

LOl I turned it off right at that point too.."my mom was the rock..she stood my bed when I was sick"..blah blah blah........

Fleetwood mac concert on channel 10 was of more interest.

Akipt, don't ya love how the Democrats get conservative at election time?

No I hate it when they try to come to the center. The GOP's convention is going to be all about the spotlight on the center as well, ie. Arnold, Giuliani, ... so I don't blame Kerry for being not stupid. He knows he can't win unless he pulls more independants and centrists.

That being said, reading TNR's and various other reviews around of the speech I mostly missed, Kerry did not appeal to anyone but his base last night. Sure he made the crowd cheer, but if you're in Boston in FleetCenter, you're voting for Kerry already anyway. Kerry hit a solid single last night, but since his speech got better the closer he got to shutting up, I suspect the ballpark was already emptying of its fans. Kerry needed a homerun to save the game for his home team, and it didn't happen.

How many months has Bush taken a beating? A flogging from everyone with a pipe hole that could bash him over something. Comparisons to Hitler, misleading and being a liar (all of which have been proven incorrect), and he's still pretty much even with Kerry going into this convention. The further we get from April (Bush's lowest approval ratings during the Iraq mess) the better Bush is doing. I don't think Kerry can catch up now.

I don't get to check this thread often enough ... but the conversation about Franken I was reading while my friend Josh was sending me a few pictures he took.

http://www.chadhorn.net/misc/Convention/ is the root directory. One is Al Franken running his show (which was being talked about) and the other was a skirmish that happened in the hallways between Al Franken and Sean Hannity. Josh was talking to Franken when Hannity walks by and said "there's franken, the no-talent liberal". Then Franken turns (see picture) and replies "you want to wrestle?" and they started yelling at each other until someone from security broke it up.

Okay, I still can't find the article I was looking for but I did find this interesting page.

http://www.electoral-vote.com/jul/jul30.html

It updates the electoral college daily depending on what poll was taken in the country. You can go to backwards daily and see what the prior poll looked like and gives you the sum total of electoral college points at the given time.

I went back to July 21 and then forward to today (7/30) just goofing around with it. On July 21 Kerry had 332 votes to Bushes 195 (you need 270 to be elected I think) which would have meant Kerry in a landslide. But the poll done today shows Kerry at 289 and Bush at 232. Kerry is still winning but losing ground.

Also, it shows states that are "barely" Bush or "barely" Kerry, "strong" Bush or "strong" Kerry etc.... if you believe the polling done, it reveals that Kerry has managed to let states where he was "strong" slip to "toss up" or brought them down to "weak/barely".

This is just a snap-shot of the last 10 days or so but I love to look at the maps and see how it is panning out.

I am voting for Bush so even though the numbers are heartening we Bush supporters need to remember that Kerry is still in the lead.... for the moment :)

That was the most dishonest speech I've heard since Clinton said he didn't inhale. The difference is I was thinking about voting for Clinton back in those days... it's never crossed my mind that I might vote for Kerry. He's a dungsack.

Josh was talking to Franken when Hannity walks by and said "there's franken, the no-talent liberal".

Well on that point Hannity's right though.

Franken has made the jump from SNL to political commentary with the same remarkable success Molly Shannon had going from there to starring in feature films.

I will immediately reform the intelligence system from his speech. Committee that he sat on for 8 years and did nothing but continuously try to cut their funding.


Under attack by Republicans for proposing deep cuts in the intelligence budget a decade ago, John Kerry is trying to justify them as efforts to slice away pork. The problem is that during the Senate debate on Feb. 19, 1994, Kerry was taken to task by two pillars of the then Democratic majority: Dennis DeConcini of Arizona and Daniel Inouye of Hawaii.

DeConcini, the Intelligence Committee chairman, and Inouye, the Appropriations Defense Subcommittee chairman, assailed Kerry's unsuccessful efforts to cut the intelligence budget. DeConcini calculated it would cost $1 billion in intelligence spending that year and $5 billion over the next five years. Both senators suggested Kerry did not recognize the dangers existing then after the first terrorist attack on the World Trade Center. In opposing Kerry's amendment, DeConcini declared, "We no longer seem immune from acts of terrorism in the United States." Inouye asked: "Is this the time to cut the satellite programs that give our forces warning of attacks?"



In the 1990s, John Kerry served eight years on the Senate Intelligence Committee. Despite such incidents as the World Trade Center bombing in 1993 and the bombing of the Khobar Towers in 1996, Kerry proposed intelligence cuts throughout the 1990s and even asked his colleagues in 1997, "Now that [the Cold War] struggle is over, why is it that our vast intelligence apparatus continues to grow?"
Fortunately, many of his liberal-Democratic colleagues understood that there were other threats, such as terrorism, that still abounded; it was rare for them even to agree with his proposed slashing of the intelligence budget.



I ask you to judge me by my record-John Kerry

And then I reached across the aisle to work with John McCain, to find the truth about our POW's and missing in action, and to finally make peace with Vietnam.
Of course he leaves out the whole scandal with giving Vietnam a clean bill of health and then one of his relatives getting a huge contract from the government of Vietnam when he did this.

The link to the transcript, in case some of you were looking:

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2004_0729.html

What post-convention bounce?

In the survey (http://usatoday.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=USATODAY.com+-+Poll%3A+No+boost+for+Kerry+after+convention&expire=&urlID=11186062&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usatoday.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitic selections%2Fnation%2Fpresident%2F2004-08-01-poll-kerry_x.htm&partnerID=1660), taken Friday and Saturday, Kerry trailed Bush 50%-46% among likely voters. Independent candidate Ralph Nader was at 2%.
:rolleyes: Poor Kerry fans... it's not looking good for ya.