http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3884135.stm

Fucking moronic court.

They take a security measure Israel is using to slow down homicide bombers and terrorism..one that is WORKING and has reduced the bombings by 90%, and tell Israel they can't have it.

90%.

To put it into terms that are easier to understand, if 90% of the WTC deaths could have been prevented only 275 would have died instead of 2749.

Shouldn't suprise anyone though, everyone knew what it was going to say(probably had to do with the 6 Euro judges and 2 Arab ones). For some odd reason everything to do with Israel that comes out of Europe goes the other way.

It's almost as if Europe were prejudiced against Israel.

Nah.

The only thing criminal here is the ICJ.

Which would be better for Europeans financially? Siding with the Palestinians or the Israelis? Or better yet... who controls more oil? The Arabs or the Jews?

It's not really antisemitism, it's good business.

sort of like the oil for food program....

I agree with Crist0? I am confused.

Really crist0 once again you are talking about something you know nothing about. The wall is just another way the Israelis are trying to "imprison" the palestinians. This wall is a bad thing. Just like the wall in Germany was a bad thing.

If we'd stop giving them foreign aid they wouldn't have the funds to build the wall. i say fuck em. no wall!

Funny, don't remember East Germans crossing into West Germany with bombs strapped to their asses and blowing up civilians in busses and supermarkets. CNN must have just skipped that part.

nah they just got shot by patrol guards.

Theres a difference between keeping people in (the way the berlin wall was doing) and keeping people out (the way the Israel wall is doing).

The EU government is a corrupt piece of shit looking to swindle extra money by compromizing the saftey of innocent Israelies. No different from Enron and such, they just hind behind the liberal mask of "We take from the rich (keep most of it) and give the rest to the poor so it's all good!"

ok ok my main point is crist0 is wrong. more on this later.

I see international court in this article, not european one ? Someone enlighten me on this? Haven't followed news at all lately. Or are you assuming the international court is only european?

The responses would be funny, if they weren't so tragically serious.

So the EU would be less corrupt if it agreed with Israel?
So the French would be better liked if they agreed with America?
So Europe would be a better place if we had no opinion other than what comes out of the White House?

So the ICJ is biast, corrupt, useless and fundamentally wrong, because it - as well as most of the world beside America - agrees that such a fence adds even more to the persecution of the Palestinians. The Palestinians, a people who not only had the land that was promised to them by us British - who took it from the Ottomans - and then by the League of Nations, given not to them but to the Israeli's, then the small portion of land left to them occupied, but proceeded for the next 30 years to be persecuted, killed, and what I can only describe as being "herded" around, with over 3, 500 civilians killed since 1987...Now they have 10 feet high walls surrounding them?

Actually, looking at the bigger picture...a 10 foot wall hardly seems to matter to the utterly astonishing persecution the Palestinian people face.

Maybe the ICJ is false. Maybe its verdict was corrupt.
Perhaps it merely came to such a conclusion to counter the outrageously illogical support for the Israeli's pouring out of Washington.

And so I'll say "good."

And if we're doing this for the oil, then hey - beats killing 10,000 Iraqi's, eh.

Kinu, I believe because of the make-up of the court (it not being dominated by Americano's) that they believe it represents Europe.
The committe who appoint jurists looks something like this:

President : Arthur Chaskalson (http://www.icj.org/article.php3?id_article=18&id_rubrique=13?=en), South Africa


Vice-President :

Param Cumaraswamy (http://www.icj.org/article.php3?id_article=83&id_rubrique=13&lang=en), Malaysia

Lord Goodhart (http://www.icj.org/article.php3?id_article=92&id_rubrique=13?=en), United Kingdom


ICJ Executive Committee :

Ian Binnie (http://www.icj.org/article.php3?id_article=2870&id_rubrique=13&lang=en), Canada

Rajeev Dhavan (http://www.icj.org/article.php3?id_article=85&id_rubrique=13?=en), India

Louise Doswald-Beck (http://www.icj.org/article.php3?id_article=3129&id_rubrique=13&lang=en), Switzerland

John Dowd (http://www.icj.org/article.php3?id_article=87&id_rubrique=13?=en), Australia (Chairperson)

Jochen A. Frowein (http://www.icj.org/article.php3?id_article=89&id_rubrique=13?=en), Germany

Gustavo Gallón Giraldo (http://www.icj.org/article.php3?id_article=90&id_rubrique=13&lang=en), Colombia

Stellan Gärde (http://www.icj.org/article.php3?id_article=3135&id_rubrique=13&lang=en), Sweden

Nigel Rodley (http://www.icj.org/article.php3?id_article=2891&id_rubrique=13&lang=en), United Kingdom

Daniel Thürer (http://www.icj.org/article.php3?id_article=2923&id_rubrique=13&lang=en), Switzerland


But hey - for all the Yanks know, South Africa might be in Europe.

who protects the palenstinians from the israeli stealing their land day by day ?

the israelis running a religious motivated war against the palestinians by taking their land and killing their leaders.

for the dullminded ... israel appeared first on the maps shortly after the 2nd WW was over as a result of the zionistic movement

what makes israel with sharon as their leader better than a osaman bin laden ? their deathcount of innocent people it rather equal and their true motivation and the people backing them are religous fanatics ...

The religous fanatics backing them would include Pat Robertson, I'm sure. The only reason they back israel is the 2nd comming... hahahahahaha.... sorry. Born in the east they say...

So the EU would be less corrupt if it agreed with Israel?
The EU would be less corrupt if it stopped being blatantly anti-Israel. Especially when they do it for money. They are selling out to terrorists for a better position with Arab oil.


as well as most of the world

Europe and the Arabs are NOT the rest of the world.


And if we're doing this for the oil, then hey - beats killing 10,000 Iraqi's, eh

That makes my point better than I ever could.

If 10,000 Iraqis die in the fight to remove a dictator that's bad..but by god if Halo's comrades can knock off some of the price of oil by selling Israeli lives to terrorists..well thats "good".

Why are Israeli lives worth so little Halo?

I thought you were the great humanitarian, why is it different with them?

The court, btw, is made up of these judges:

Gilbert Guillaume (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Guillaume.htm) (France) Euro
Abdul G. Koroma (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Koroma.html) (Sierra Leone) Muslim
Vladlen S. Vereshchetin (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Vereschetin.html) (Russian Federation) Euro
Rosalyn Higgins (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Higgins.html) (United Kingdom) Euro
Gonzalo Parra-Aranguren (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Parra_Arranguren.html) (Venezuela) OPEC country
Pieter H. Kooijmans (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Kooymans.html) (Netherlands) Euro
Francisco Rezek (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Rezek.html) (Brazil)
Awn Shawkat Al-Khasawneh (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Al-Khasawneh.html) (Jordan) Euro
Thomas Buergenthal (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Buergenthal.htm) (United States of America)
Nabil Elaraby (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/ElAraby.htm) (Egypt) Arab
Hisashi Owada (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Owada.htm) (Japan)
Bruno Simma (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/simma.htm) (Germany) Euro
Peter Tomka (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/tomka.htm) (Slovakia) Euro
Gee, that doesn't look like a hostile bench for Israel, does it?

The glass parking lot theory for all of the Middle East just looks better and better every day. That includes Israel.

If only there was some other viable mass solution to the world's energy needs than petroleum, then this would not be an issue. So far petroleum is looking like it will end up being the number 1 killer of Humanity. Either we will burn enough of it to destroy the environment with greenhouse gas or we kill each other over it to make it affordable. Stupid.

'They are selling out to terrorists for a better position with Arab oil.'

- Crist0, Mel Gibson phoned, he wants his tin-foil hat back.
I thought liberals were the conspirators?

'Europe and the Arabs are NOT the rest of the world.'

- Nop, but Europe and the Middle East, along with India, Russia, China, Japan... make up a large portion of it.
The majority of international opinion is against Israel's action, and has now been confirmed by an international court. And speaking of international...

'Gilbert Guillaume (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Guillaume.htm) (France) Euro
Abdul G. Koroma (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Koroma.html) (Sierra Leone) Muslim
Vladlen S. Vereshchetin (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Vereschetin.html) (Russian Federation) Euro
Rosalyn Higgins (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Higgins.html) (United Kingdom) Euro
Gonzalo Parra-Aranguren (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Parra_Arranguren.html) (Venezuela) OPEC country
Pieter H. Kooijmans (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Kooymans.html) (Netherlands) Euro
Francisco Rezek (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Rezek.html) (Brazil)
Awn Shawkat Al-Khasawneh (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Al-Khasawneh.html) (Jordan) Euro
Thomas Buergenthal (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Buergenthal.htm) (United States of America)
Nabil Elaraby (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/ElAraby.htm) (Egypt) Arab
Hisashi Owada (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Owada.htm) (Japan)
Bruno Simma (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/simma.htm) (Germany) Euro
Peter Tomka (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/tomka.htm) (Slovakia) Euro'

- Neither Russia nor Jordan are European, but I'll let that pass because you're a Yank - not known for geography. So 5 out of 13 judges are European. Not even a majority. Not even your Arab-oil conspiratory holds up here.. what with the UK being an avid supporter and contributor to the war effort in the Middle East, hell, the same goes for Japan in regards to Iraq, and they are the world's largest oil importer.

Add to the fact that even an Israeli court concluded that parts of the wall are down-right hurrendously placed (
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3880881.stm (%0Ahttp://news.%0Ahttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3880881.stmbbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3880881.stm)), cutting off Palestinians from hospitals, schools, even in some case, their place of employment...
With a rising 3, 500 death toll (coming up to the number of civilians killed by American during Afghanistan, but not quite), some thousands and thousands of homes demolished, a 10 foot wall strangling the people both economically and socially...you wonder why countries appear to support Palestine??

Do not ask me why I appear to view the Israeli life so carelessly, but ask yourself how you can stand to believe a people deserve such punishment.
Disgusting.

My understanding is that the court has declared the wall illegal because of *where* it is being built....in occupied territory, not at the Israeli border. It's been deemed illegal because it is an attempt to annex territory that is not part of Israel, i.e. make permanent the seizure of land from the 1967 war. They are building it to protect illegal settlements on land that is not part of Israel, not just Tel Aviv.

Will the wall work? I think it already has, and for that reason the Israelis are not going to give a rat's ass what the ICJ says about it.

I would not only keep the walls up..... I would dig a moat too......

ok crist0 i'll stop bro, but it was fun. The wall btw is 8 meters high. That's freaking huge. Palestine has used terror as thier major bargaining chip since thier inception. I believe the wall is a viable option to help Israel keep thier people safer.

On the Euro thing. It will always be en vogue to bash the United States. We're the biggest target, and we make shit happen. We no longer have the big bad USSR to be a villian. (although i think we're overlooking something there) So guess who gets to be the worlds focus of angst, and "things gone wrong". That's right the USA. We're by no means perfect, but you better believe we've got the best thing going.

The funny part is people like Hartmut and Halo coming on here trying to claim no bias then they list off how evil Israel is and the poor poor Palestinians how persecuted they are. With lack of any real leg to stand on here Halo just resorts to meaningless insults to American geographic abilities.

Israel is there Halo. No matter what happened in the past its there and they have a right to protect themselves. Are all of Israel's policies right? No but they wouldn't be necessary without the racially motivated hatred that comes from the Arab world who use the Palestinians as their pawns. I know in your world the US and Israel are corrupt and evil... but you could try and take a look at yourself and your European buddies with as hard of a stare as you use on us and see what you come up with.

You just wrote two meaningless paragraphs that echo out of the room.

I wrote a particularly factual, opinionated, counter-argument to Crist0's previous post. So if you have nothing relevent to add (whether or not your existence can achieve such a thing) then keep your fucking mouth shut.
Do so, and so I'll keep waiting for Crist0 to respond.

I'm rather enjoying this one. I'm especially looking forward to his explanations on the supposed Five-Judge-Euro-Dominated-ICJ and whether or not Jordan is actually in Europe.

Leave this one to the big boys, kiddo.

Anyways, Israel isn't gonna give a shit what this little ICJ ruled or any other pathetic EU court system that has no power. You think they are gonna take down the wall just cause some powerless body like the UN or ICJ says so? Hell, unless America disagrees with them they aren't gonna do shit, cause America is the only country that has the balls to back up its decision. I wanna see how far your diplomatic solution gets you haha.

'...or any other pathetic EU court system that has no power.'

- It's like a Greek tragedy.

Neither Russia nor Jordan are European

Jordan was a mistype, although it changes nothing about the side it will be on since it is an Arab nation, oh and Russia IS in Europe.

Jesus you Euros know jack shit about your own continent and you have the balls to make fun of Americans' lack of knowledge about it?


The majority of international opinion is against Israel's action, and has now been confirmed by an international court.

Really?

Well, considering that court can't do anything at all but bluster I am waiting for it going to someone who can actually try(UN security council) where the US can veto it.

Then we can all watch them continue to build their wall and kill terrorists to protect their citizens like they've been doing for decades in spite of Europe and the UN's efforts to sell them out.


http://flagspot.net/images/u/us.gif

Go Go Good Team.

http://flagspot.net/images/i/il.gif

'oh and Russia IS in Europe.'

- So it's, as you said, European, is it?

'Jesus you Euros know jack shit about your own continent and you have the balls to make fun of Americans' lack of knowledge about it?'

- HAHAHAHAHAHA. Russia is European, huh? Oh dear lord. Have at it then...how is Russia European? This should be some fun.

' Well, considering that court can't do anything...'

- And here it is, ladies and gentlemen. Crist0's bullshit exposed. He can't provide even an amusing argument (other in the sense of it being tragically amusing), and I think has finally acknowledged that his entire point of view is painfully and wildly inaccurate. So what does he do? Dismiss it all.

Allow me to translate "Whatever, US ROCKS DUED!11"

I enjoyed that somewhat one sided debate, Crist0. Short-lived as it was.
Though I am looking forward to the Russian debate. Unless you put that down to a typo as well.

It's like a faerie tale up in here.

As far as I m concerned, when you talk about europe , you talk about the organisation (the EU), which has 25 countries in it. If you talk geographically then yep Russia is included in europe but its also included in asia since its so big. When you are accusing europe to be corrupted ( thats funny because I don't know any kind of gov/organisation that isn't corrupted anyway) you are talking about the organisation and russia isn't in it thanks.

Anyway got my answer, its an international court of justice and it has 5 judge out of 13 that actually are from europe. Just because you guys seems somewhat slow here is the scoop:

USA = one country = one judge.
EU = 25 countries = more than 1 judge ( 5 )

I have no fucking clue what power this court has, I m guessing its not going to change squat to the israeli/palestinian situation (well usa can't change squat about it either and they are the most powerfull country in the world) and nothing will ever change it simply because it won't stop until one of the side is completly and totally annihilated. Thats religion for you, such an amazing concept eh? A few guys with personal agendas controlling the rest of the people and making them do whatever they wish.

I have come to the conclusion that if god exists :) he is one hell of a sadist.

OMG Halo you r keep ur fucking mouth shut. Funny thats the best you could come up with to something you can't get out of. Namely being dead wrong.

There isn't a self reflective thought that comes out of your little hate filled brain. All you've said here is "I'm not biased, I hate Israel." So I guess I'll give you a little STFU back at you and we can go round and round like that for awhile.

So it's, as you said, European, is it?

Yes, usually when a country is on a continent it is considered to..be a part of that continent. Oddly enough China is an Asian country, Zimbabwe is an African country, Brazil is a South American country...see how this works oh Euro who makes fun of other people's geography knowledge but has none of his own?


It's like a faerie tale up in here.

I get the distinct impression alot of your world is "faerie tale".


As far as I m concerned, when you talk about europe , you talk about the organisation (the EU), which has 25 countries in it.

Woah there chief, your empire hasn't conquered the continent yet..believe it or not the word Europe applies to more than just the EU(for now *insert dramatic music here*)


Anyway got my answer, its an international court of justice and it has 5 judge out of 13 that actually are from europe. Just because you guys seems somewhat slow here is the scoop

Just because you are slow here's the real scoop: There are -6- Euro countries, a member of OPEC(wonder who is in OPEC besides Venezuela..), a muslim, and two judges from Arab countries.

Are you ready for this?

That puts the bar at 10 judges that come from countries that have direct opposition to Israel(Euro/Arab), directly oppose it themselves(Muslim), or come from countries with an interest in siding with the Arab cause(Venezuela).

That is an extremely unfriendly bench, even without knowing how impartial the remaining judges are.


I have no fucking clue what power this court has
Here's your clue: None.


nothing will ever change it simply because it won't stop until one of the side is completly and totally annihilated.

Actually if you were to take a look into the past, every time a treaty is signed or a cease fire is brokered...one side breaks it.

Are you ready for who it is that always breaks their word and starts shit up again?

If you guess Palestinians you are right!

If you are a prejudiced anti-Jewish Euro(ok, that's a bit too redundant for my taste) you guessed wrong!


A few guys with personal agendas controlling the rest of the people and making them do whatever they wish.

Well, one guy in particular is responsible for the current situation and has gone out of his way to sabatoge peace every chance he gets.

You know him, you love him...

Yassir Arafat, come on down!

I ALMOST FORGOT!

Here's some more sugar Halo!


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http://flagspot.net/images/i/il.gif

In regard to the judgment, I don't think you can really claim that they were wrong legally speaking, although several of the judges gave a separate addendum opinion that basically says the issue is far to clouded at the moment to have such a simple opinion. A couple of the judges from Muslim countries gave opinions basically trying to further definitions of occupied and ownership of territory. Notably absent were addendum opinions from most of the European judges. By the Way 11 of the 13 judges are either from European countries, Russia (1), Muslim countries (3), or heavily Catholic countries (2.)

The American representative chose not to hear the case and gave a brief explanation which predictably seems to make sense to me.

"Since I believe that the Court should have exercised its discretion and declined to render the requested advisory opinion, I dissent from its decision to hear the case. My negative votes with regard to the remaining items of the dispositif should not be seen as reflecting my view that the construction of the wall by Israel on the Occupied Palestinian Territory does not raise serious questions as a matter of international law. I believe it does, and there is much in the Opinion with which I agree. However, I am compelled to vote against the Court’s findings on the merits because the Court did not have before it the requisite factual bases for its sweeping findings; it should therefore have declined to hear the case. In reaching this conclusion, I am guided by what the Court said in Western Sahara, where it emphasizedthat the critical question in determining whether or not to exercise its discretion in acting on an advisory opinion request is “whether the Court has before it sufficient information and evidence to enable it to arrive at a judicial conclusion upon any disputed questions of fact the determination of which is necessary for it to give an opinion in conditions compatible with its judicial character” (Western Sahara, Advisory Opinion, I.C.J. Reports 1975, pp. 28‑29, para. 46). In my view, the absence in this case of the requisite information and evidence vitiates the Court’s findings on the merits."

In effect there wasn't sufficient evidence for a ruling. All of the separate opinions agreed with this, at least in part.

This is why I don't like internet arguement, people mix up facts together.
One time you say this court is european and then next time you say its anti israeli.

So you agree to say its an international court right ? OPEP is not in europe. Regardless of what you say, there are still only 5 euro judges and its not the majority. It might be different as far as how anti-israeli it is but then thats up to the judges.

Anyway point proven. The rest is another whole issue and btw don't be so black/white. Israel isn't all good either. I don't know if you have been there but I have been every summer for years because I got jewish friends that live there and its not all that pretty.

This court couldn't have discredited it more by saying Israel couldn't defend itself against a non-state threat. Anyone remember 9/11? It was the latest precedent in international law when they resolved that the US could wage war against Al-queda and other terrorist organizations that threatened our existence. The UN has constantly ruled in favor of it, never wavering.

If you're a people without a "state" you're inconsequential to the real diplomatic world. The Palestinians should fire their "stateman" (as Kerry calls the cocksucking terrorist) Arafat and appoint a real governing council, like Iraq. Then they'll be recognized. Until then, fuck off.

And in their "opinion" they stated, "The Arab population of Palestine and the Arab States reject this plan [the 1947 UN Partition Resolution], contending that it was unbalanced."

That's saying they never agreed to Israel's existence. Yeah everyone knows that, but this "official" body just gave them voice in an official manner. Way to go chumps. This court just agreed with the PLO's charter of "liquidation of things Israeli."

Nah, no bias there!

/applause

One time you say this court is european and then next time you say its anti israeli.
NEWSFLASH!

One and the same. Europeans have it in for Israel like a mofo, you don't have to look farther than the European posters here to see it. I've -never- seen someone on this board that lives in Europe take Israel's side in anything, you guys always end up supporting the Palestinians.


So you agree to say its an international court right ? OPEP is not in europe. Regardless of what you say, there are still only 5 euro judges and its not the majority.

Six.

Russia is European. It has been involved in the politics of Europe for centuries. It is geographically located in Europe. In fact, the European portion of Russia takes up almost half of your continent.

You guys need to wake up a little.

Now here's the REALLY cool part Kinu:

When you take the 6 Euro judges, add in the Venezuelan judge(OPEC is mostly made up of Arab nations Kinu, in other words there are strong ties between Venezuela and the Arab world), add in the muslim who is going to back the Muslim pony, and finally the Arab nations you end up with 2/3 of the court that has a history and/or vested interest in seeing Israel lose the case.


Israel isn't all good either.
Hell no it isn't good, they've been fighting terrorism longer than any other nation on the planet and to make matters worse they have countries like yours making it as hard as they can for them to protect their citizens.

Israel's gone to bat time and again to find peaceful resolutions to this and your boys the Palestinians always jack things up by strapping bombs on and blowing up wedding parties or shopping malls.

The least you guys could do is let them defend themselves, after all you've proven time and again that they can't depend on you to defend them.

At some point the EU has to be relegated to one representative in the UN I would think. Either that or lets have 50 US reps.

You're right on one point Kinu.. It is an overgeneralization to take this ruling and say omg Europe hates Jews. Come on though... the statements from both sides are polarized. You get Halo coming out saying "You dumb fucking Americans, you don't even understand, you don't know where Europe is... fucking Israel kill million Palestinians."

The problem of the Palestinians would have been settled long ago if not for the religious zealotry of the Arabs, but at the same time it might not have come to be without the intervention of the British and Americans. Of course it might not have come to be also without the atrocities of the Germans, Russians, and persecution throughout Europe.

For people here who live in Germany... I have a question. Is there a hesitancy at all among German people to seemingly side against the Israelis in all issues? At least you have the UN as a buffer, but I would think there would be some kind of reluctance to not give the appearance of antisemitism. I don't mean that to be a jab.. its a serious question.

I should know better than to post drunk and in a hurry but oh well here it is anyway.

Actually if you were to take a look into the past, every time a treaty is signed or a cease fire is brokered...one side breaks it.

This sentence is so full of crap, I don't know where to begin, but since Cristo is such an expert, perhaps he would like to name every treaty signed.

( hint, there is only one, and you can't really pin its failure on either side completely )

But, I'm sure an expert like Cristo knew that.

( there was a second treaty, which wasn't signed, in 1948, that attempted to create two states in Palestine, but Lehi terrorists assassinated Folk Bernadotte during negotiations. The leaders of Lehi went on to lead the Likud Party. )

Again, I'm sure Cristo knows all of this.

Fil

Instead of hinting around about your knowledge of the truth why don't you enlighten everyone Filatal.

How about I list the cease fires from October 2000 to October 2001?



October 4, 2000 -- Barak-Arafat meeting in Paris with U.S. Secretary of State Albright and French President Chirac. "Points of Understanding" document concluded, but Arafat refused to sign.

October 16-17, 2000 -- At the Sharm el-Sheikh Summit, Arafat agrees in front of President Clinton to issue a public statement unequivocally calling for an end to violence. In exchange, Israel agrees to Fact-Finding Commission that becomes the Mitchell Committee. Arafat does not issue the cease-fire statement, nonetheless the Mitchell Committee is formed and begins its work.

November 1, 2000 -- Former Prime Minister Shimon Peres and Yasser Arafat meet. As a result, Barak and Arafat conclude a "Joint Statement on the Cessation of Violence." Car bomb explodes in Jerusalem. Cease-fire is not implemented.

November 17, 2000 -- After a November 9 meeting with President Clinton, Arafat declares a cease-fire in Area A. Shooting incidents drop from 53 per day to 34, then rise again to 53.

June 2, 2001 -- Arafat declares in public that he is ready to issue a cease-fire after Dolphinarium Disco attack in Tel Aviv. Incidents of mortar shelling increase from one attack on June 1 to 3 attacks on June 4 to 4 attacks on June 10. Attacks using explosives return to highpoint of 12 per day.

June 13, 2001 -- Arafat agrees to Tenet Work Plan. Mortar attacks drop from 4 per day on June 13 to 2 attacks per day on June 18. Shooting and other attacks continue.

I'm not going to sit here and post every single cease fire..instead why don't you come up with an incident where Israel broke a cease fire when Palestinians were living up to their end of the deal?

Russia is European. It has been involved in the politics of Europe for centuries. It is geographically located in Europe. In fact, the European portion of Russia takes up almost half of your continent.Man seriously I m not anti american, I like good debates and stuff but why do you spout things like this. Are you actually thinking that russia and the EU ( well western european countries before that) have had the same political views for centuries?

Russia is gheographically half in europe and half in asia thats great, that has not a god damn thing to do with politics. Russia has its own agenda, if it fit them, they ll be close to europe or they can pick to be close to china or even usa that depend of the matter so once again: russia is not in the EU, the court is NOT an EUROPEAN court. It is an INTERNATIONAL court composed by several countries. I am NOT saying the decision wasn't biased, thats another issue but its not just europe okay? Done on this point, if you don't get it there is no reason to argue about it anymore.

One and the same. Europeans have it in for Israel like a mofo, you don't have to look farther than the European posters here to see it. I've -never- seen someone on this board that lives in Europe take Israel's side in anything, you guys always end up supporting the Palestinians.Well for one, the people posting here are not representative of the europe. Most people here can't grasp geopoliticals concepts well enough for the arguement they try to explain. For two I m french, I don't hate israel, in fact I love the country and know it fairly well. As far as I m concerned I blame both sides, you on the other side are siding for israel only. I got to see some stuff first hand while you just look at TV ( went thru gaza bank during the first intifada, was in jerusalem during terrorist acts,etc).



You're right on one point Kinu.. It is an overgeneralization to take this ruling and say omg Europe hates Jews. Come on though... the statements from both sides are polarized. You get Halo coming out saying "You dumb fucking Americans, you don't even understand, you don't know where Europe is... fucking Israel kill million Palestinians."Oh I agree, generalization is real bad. Like I said in another post, your president represent your country, right now you got a guy that albeit beeing intelligent has a huge personal agenda ( well so does chirac) but can't talk for crap so the whole usa is looking retarded because of that image people have. I m not Halo tho, he has his views that I respect ( albeit extreme somewhat) and I have mine. I don't mind debating because I think its fun but I expect a minimum level of knowledge and that we stay polite, so far so good.

Going to EUROdisney with my goddaughter :p Won't be able to see answer till tonight.

What I respect about Bush that was lacking in Clinton and from what I've seen in Kerry is a strength of conviction that would allow him to do something that might be unpopular, but still the right thing to do. Maybe 20 years from now I'll be sitting back and saying we made a big mistake there. Still I value leadership over perfect grammar and articulation. The first Bush lost his second bid for election because of exactly that. He decided to run on his convictions rather than listening closely enough to his advisors. Admittedly this was also because he thought he had so much of a lead he didn't have to.

In the US we have a tradition of good ol' boy types, and it's actually somewhat of a handicap to a politician if they come off too high browed, intellectual. As a matter of fact I remember there were exactly the same kind of attacks on Ronald Reagan during his presidency.

Dude, the EU is NOT Europe..(yet! *reinsert music*).

I am not saying it is in the EU.

Russia has played a major part in the politics of Europe for centuries, something you can trace at least as far back as the Viking raids in the 9th century. It really came into play with Peter the Great's westernization of the country.

Napoleon sure thought it was an important part of Europe, to reference your own country.

Where you are getting totally off base is when you are mistakenly linking the EU with the term Euro or European. When I refer to the EU you will know it, because it will have a nice little (SSR) tacked onto the end.


I am NOT saying the decision wasn't biased, thats another issue but its not just europe okay?

That's rather the whole point, that the decision was terribly biased - not just because of the Euro judges, but because of the other 4 judges I mentioned as well(again, not even taking into account the other 5's impartiality).

Europe gets mention because it is doing it for shady reasons..they sell Israel out because they want to get in good with Arabs(more importantly, their oil).


Well for one, the people posting here are not representative of the europe.
I agree, however everything I've seen shows that distinct trend in European countries. There may be a minority that do not dislike Israel, but if so they are quiet as church mice because you never hear from that group.


As far as I m concerned I blame both sides, you on the other side are siding for israel only.
Yes.

That brief listing of events in just one year give a very good explanation of -why- I feel that way.

They are the underdog, every country around them wants to push them into the sea, and are pursuing that end without even really bothering to hide it...and despite all of that they are still there, and even push the other side's superior numbers back.

How can you NOT respect that?

It's just endless nonesense, it's almost unbearable.
Saying the ICJ is Euro-dominated or hell - just calling it a European court.
Someone actually thinking Russia is European and *sticking by it*.
Calling people anti-semetic when they appear more worried about 3, 500 Palestinian deaths than 200 or so Israelis. Not forgetting the thousands upon thousands of demolished houses, seperation from schools and hospitals..A British journalist went over there to do a documentary on the Palestinian suffering. He was shot in the head by an Israeli soldier.

It's just too painfully full of utter shit to even comprehend.
You guys are hysterical to the point of believing anything.

Honestly. Get a sense of reality.

So not having Halo's opinion is not having a sense of reality. Therefore by extrapolation from his own statements, not having a severe bias against Israel is not having a sense of reality. But how dare you suggest that Europe has a bias against Israel which is financially motivated.

How can you say its not Euro dominated? How can you say that lineup, European and not, isn't almost entirely historically biased against Israel. Look at the judgments... and open your brain just a smidgeon to let in a little free thought. Even the judges signing on to the ruling had to give lengthy expressions of reservation over it... except the... French, Russian, German, and Slovakian reps. The Rep from the Netherlands simply added a separate judgment to explain why he had to vote against one small part of the overall judgment. The Japanese, British, and American reps rose serious reservations... in the case of the Japanese and American directly regarding the conduct of the matter in total. The Jordanian and Egyptian reps basically objected to definitions.. ie territorial disputes and boundaries.

Raymond Ranjeva (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Ranjeva.html) (Madagascar)- French speaking country, educated in France
Gilbert Guillaume (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Guillaume.htm) (France)- EU
Abdul G. Koroma (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Koroma.html) (Sierra Leone)- Majority Muslim country, former ambassador to Belgium, France, Luxemborg, Netherlands... Abdul?
Vladlen S. Vereshchetin (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Vereschetin.html) (Russian Federation)- anti Israel
Rosalyn Higgins (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Higgins.html) (United Kingdom)- EU
Pieter H. Kooijmans (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Kooymans.html) (Netherlands)- EU
Awn Shawkat Al-Khasawneh (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Al-Khasawneh.html) (Jordan)- Muslim
Nabil Elaraby (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/ElAraby.htm) (Egypt)- Muslim
Bruno Simma (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/simma.htm) (Germany)-EU
Peter Tomka (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/tomka.htm) (Slovakia)- In the EU yet?
Mr. Philippe Couvreur (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Couvreur-1.jpg) (Belgium)- EU

Hisashi Owada (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Owada.htm) (Japan)
Thomas Buergenthal (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Buergenthal.htm) (United States of America)
Francisco Rezek (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Rezek.html) (Brazil)
Gonzalo Parra-Aranguren (http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/igeneralinformation/icvjudge/Parra_Arranguren.html) (Venezuela)

EU, EU, EU, EU, EU, EU, Russia, Muslim, Muslim, Muslim, Paris educated native french speaker. All anti Israeli, with the EU being the major cohort. If you were Israel, would you abide by any decision that this group came up with? How about this... replace all those EUs and Muslims with Kansas, Texas, Montana, Colorado, Arizona, Florida, Minnesota, Costa Rica, Taiwan, and Puerto Rico. How would you feel about their recommendations?

winterworg , where do you get all your knowledge from ? from quizshows ?

first of all lets clarify some of your "facts" ...
taken from the CIA worldfact book

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ma.html

madagascar has like a dozen of languages , one of the offical is french. And 99% of the people there are pisspoor
Religions: indigenous beliefs 52%, Christian 41%, Muslim 7% (OMG 7 % ANTI-ISRAEL!! )
Languages: French (official), Malagasy (official)




Who tells you that the Arab and african members if the IJC are all muslims ?

religions in egypt
Religions:
Muslim (mostly Sunni) 94%, Coptic Christian and other 6%

religions in sierra leone
Muslim 60%, indigenous beliefs 30%, Christian 10%

religions i jordan
Sunni Muslim 92%, Christian 6% (majority Greek Orthodox, but some Greek and Roman Catholics, Syrian Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, and Protestant denominations), other 2% (several small Shi'a Muslim and Druze populations) (2001 est.)


so as you can see, it could be also possible that the guys from the "muslim" dominated country could be also cristians or believe in some other religion.

i have many friends here with kurdish nationality, iraqi origin and they are christians ... welll thats maybe too complex for the simple minded ...

you point also out that one guy is french educated...

if you read the biographies of the others guys you see most of them studied in the USA ... so maybe they all PRO-AMERICA ???? but anti zionist?

who knows ?



btw did you ever read why the ICJ made this decision ? because israel taking palestinian ground.... they grab what they can they steal the palestinians ground

imagine Mexico starts to send tHousands of settlers to califoninia, once they live there some years mexico claims its their ground , because their people live there and the US fuck off.
how would you like that, of coursew imagine mexico has loads of weapons and america has nothing.

something like this happen at the moment in palestine.

.................................................. ...............................

I really don't know where to start.....

You really pulled a Michael Moore routine on this one mut. Hmm lets try it from the top.

Madagascar's national language is french and they have strong ties to France, financially and in identity. I'm trying to stick to just the facts here and not the weird little ??? insults you throw in where I can only guess the flowery presentation is meant to distract us from your lack of facts. What does "one of the official is french" mean? I can only guess you threw all this out despite the fact that you checked out your little CIA book and realized hmm... official language french... damn that doesn't work. How about this... more than 40 percent of their imports and exports were to/from France. Does that mean anything? Nowhere do I claim that their rep is Muslim or that the country is Muslim. The fact that they have a secondary official language is relevant how? I was trying to point out their strong ties to France and I think have accomplished that.

Now the fact that I say Muslim in reference to the reps from Jordan and Egypt is probably a good catch on your part. I mean.. their countries are historically antagonistic toward Israel and they are only officially more than 92 percent Muslim in their populace. Why would I possibly think that these appointed puppets of their country would share the political view of their nation and government? You're right.. I don't know that the men themselves are Muslims. Does this invalidate the point? No, but apparently you think so...

Now dealing with the representative of Sierra Leone... their pop is 60 percent Muslim... his name is Abdul... and before you start in with the kiddie insults, yes I understand that you can be named Abdul and not be a Muslim, and no I'm not an expert on the ethnic nuances of Sierra Leone. I did extrapolate his religion to represent the large majority religion of his country, guessing that they held the majority of power, and that rather than voicing his OWN opinions on matters he was, rather, voicing the policy of his nation. This admittedly is not a perfect method, but lets call it an educated guess. I do have additional evidence though in the fact that the vast majority of the country's trade is done with Belgium and Germany.

As you said to me... maybe this is all too complicated for your simple mind. Now imagine that France, Russia, and Poland decided that they hated Germans (I think I remember you're German I could be wrong) and they were going to do everything possible to exterminate you from the Earth, they attack you and during the fight you actually win and take more territory during the war. Then you're ordered by an outside agency controlled in large by historically anti- German countries... some of which are the countries that attacked you in that war and whose territory you still hold... to give that land back to your mortal enemy who will use it to launch further attacks against you.

By the way I love the Mexicans to California analogy. You do know that they the national boundary is pretty hazy at this point over here don't you? You see these people go this way, the others go that way... because we aren't going over to Mexican towns and killing as many innocent Mexicans as we can. It's a little easier to put us in the role of the Israelis and say... sure we took some of our land from Mexico... but the Pope isn't telling them to commit suicide in a way that kills as many innocent Americans as possible in order to gain glory in heaven because we infidels are in the Holy City of San Antonio. I'll tell you something... if they were we'd own Mexico by now and the UN could issue all the judgments it wanted.

I don't see why yall get so worked up about the relatively few Palestinians and Jews that are being killed. I mean... like Michael Moore and other libs on this board and friends of mine have said... you're 3 times more likely to die of a lightning strike than of a terrorist attack.

i´ve been to madagascar 3 years ago , exept for the some people which live in the capital , almost nobody was able to speak french nor any other western hemisphere language ... acutally every county and village has his its own languages and dialects and religions. (dont piss there at a tree , it could be a religous symbol and the people of the next village can be VERY upset if they find out)

more than 40 percent of their imports and exports were to/from France. Does that mean anything?
no this mean nothing , since the majority of the people live more or less autarkic as farmers,fishermens etc. most of the people dont know about the existence of israel or america .... they extremly poor and mostly very uneducated.

if you put the tradevolume of madagascar in relation to the tradevolume of usa and canada for instance its like 000001% of US/Canada. so there might be influence of france on madagascar, but at all madagascar is very underdeveloped and the people arent much influented by anything outside madagascar at all. Why ? most people have no electricty and TV or radio.


beside that it has nothing to do with the decision of the ICJ.

The ICJ recruits his members from the UNO , so there are 191 members..... uhm yea , since the judges are elected it means 189 members are anti-israel for some reason ? since the judges represent the majority of their members?
Thats part of democracy 189:2(usa/israel):eek: - live with majority decisions ?!

Anyone want to host a picture of the Isreali/Pali wall my buddy sent me from Isreal?

winterworg , where do you get all your knowledge from ? from quizshows ? This implies that quiz shows are giving out wrong facts. Seriously, Alex Trebeck is the smartest man alive.

Ill host your pic ... gr8beer@aol.com

Means nothing? Hmm...

Bachelor's degree in law (1965), University of Madagascar, Antananarivo. Diplôme from Madagascar National School of Administration (1966). Trainee in the Judicial Division of the Conseil d'Etat, Paris (1965-1966). Diplôme d'études supérieures de sciences politiques, University of Paris, Faculty of Law and Economic Science (1966). Diplôme d'études supérieures de droit public, University of Madagascar (1967). Doctorate of Law, University of Paris II (thesis: "La succession d'organisations internationales en Afrique"). Agrégé of the Faculties of Law and Economics, Public Law and Political Science section, Paris (1972).

Docteur honoris causa of the Universities of Limoges and Strasbourg. Laureate of the University of Madagascar, of the National Association of Doctors of Law and of the Madagascar National School of Administration.

Civil Administrator (1966). Assistant (1966-1972), Lecturer (1972) and Professor (1981-1991) at the University of Madagascar. Professor at the Madagascar Military Academy and at the Madagascar National School of Administration. Director of the Public Law and Political Science Study Centre. Dean of the Faculty of Law, Economics, Management and Social Sciences (1982-1986); reappointment in 1986. First Rector of the University of Antananarivo (1988-1990). Associate or visiting lecturer at several universities abroad: University of Aix-Marseille III, Bordeaux I, Paris I (Panthéon-Sorbonne), Paris II (Panthéon-Assas), the Institute of Advanced International Studies, La Réunion and Burundi, and the Free University of Brussels. Director of the French-speaking research seminar at the Hague Academy of International Law (1987); gave a course at the Hague Academy of International Law in 1997. Member (Ouagadougou, 1988) and President (Cotonou, 1992) of the Board of Agrégation Examiners of the African and Malagasy Council on Higher Education.

Conciliator at the World Bank International Centre for Settlement of Investment Disputes since 1970. Member of the Malagasy delegations to several international conferences: Third United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea; Preparatory Commission for the International Seabed Authority and the Law of the Sea Tribunal; United Nations General Assembly (1979-1990); Non-Aligned Countries (1979); Conference of States which use French (1987); Head of the Malagasy delegation to the United Nations Conference on Succession of States in respect of Treaties, Vienna (1976-1977); Member of the Malagasy delegation responsible for negotiating the revision of the co-operation agreements with France (1973). First Vice-President for Africa of the International Conference of French-Speaking Faculties of Law and Political Science (1987-1991).

Yeah I see what you mean hes an uneducated peasant with no French influence. Now Hartmut you can't possibly be telling me that this country of pisspoor uneducated mojoworshippers doesn't have people of influence who control the political landscape who absolutely rely on the 40 percent import/export with France. If you look around its not easy to find that many countries with such a huge trade imbalance in favor of a single country... especially one so far away from it. Come on man, this is a dead point for you. It has nothing to do with whether the majority of people know about Israel or America, but rather, as a wise man once said, follow the money. You're exactly right.. Madagascar is probably only like 0.001 percent of French trade... what does that matter? The point is that that tiny bit is HUGE to Madagascar. That's money coming into the country and 40 percent of it is coming from France. Think they might go along with them? I can only get the impression that you think this judge is some caveman picking lice off his wife in the shade of a banana tree, and sending his rulings in via bongo drum.

Nowhere did I say that only the US and Israel are not anti-Israeli. You said that in order to try to diminish my credibility since you can't back up what you're so desperately clawing for. I made my points and showed exactly why. You tried to make some points but don't have facts to back it up.

You know I've replied with information as I see it and I welcome a discussion on them. The other side of this discussion though in Bowler, Halo, and Hartmut seem to prefer vague claims of their possession of superior knowledge and the use of dismissive jokes. If you can dispute it, dispute it. I could be wrong, I don't know all. Don't just give up and resort to stupid snide comments though. Yeah here come the flames... so what.

This implies that quiz shows are giving out wrong facts. Seriously, Alex Trebeck is the smartest man alive.

Ill host your pic ... gr8beer@aol.com

Thanks Bowler.... Sent.

Well no, not really Winterwong.

I've given up on the discussion as I addressed several posts full of links, facts, and corrections to the horribly ill-informed posts of both yourself and Crist0, and the answers I recieved were along the lines of "Whatever".

So address the replies, or just keep rambling to yourself.

Or just keep believing there's a Mel Gibson conspiracy over the fact that perhaps an international court - as well as an Israeli court - ruled the Wall illegal because it, well, is illegal?

Wow. Imagine the thought.

How about I list the cease fires from October 2000 to October 2001? Cute. Nice cut and paste from jcpa.org ( Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs ). Very even handed approach there. You forget to mention the reason for those proposed cease-fires: An end to the Al-Aqsa Intifada that began a few days before the Paris Summit ( Oct 4 ). On Sept 28, Knesset member Ariel Sharon paid a visit to the Temple Mount to show that Israel would never allow Palestinians authority over the Al-Aqsa Mosque ( a major sticking point in the failed Camp David Summit ), despite the U.S. and Palestinian leaders urging him to forgo the trip. On the 29th, Palestinians demonstrators marched at the Al-Aqsa Mosque and Israeli police fired live ammunition into an unarmed crowd, killing 4. Thus began the Intifada.

Every proposal you cite did nothing to ameliate the demands from the Camp David Summit; namely, Palestine must cede 11% of the West Bank in exchange for a smaller amount of land in the Negev desert; on the land they were allowed to keep, water rights would be governed by Israel ( as they have since the 1967 Military Order 92, barring Palestinians from using the aquifiers under their own feet ); restricted use over the Al-Aqsa Mosque; abandonment of the right of return. Most of those proposals didn't go beyond the talk stage because Israel refused to stop the underlying provocation.

By now, I am coming off as very anti-Israeli. That isn't the case. I fully support Israel's right to exist. There have been ( mostly in the courts ) decisions by the Israeli government that are extremely ground breaking ( response to Kufr Kassem, rejection of torture, detainee rights, the recent ruling on the security barrier ) in terms of human rights. Unfortunately, these don't often make it to official policy. I believe that a large portion, if not a majority, of Israeli society wants a just settlement. Palestinian terrorism however has led to them in fear supporting the extreme right, who have a vested interest in continued provocation of the Palestinians.

Every time I have gone to Israel in connection with the peace process, on each of my four trips, I have been met with the announcement of new settlement activity. This does violate United States policy. It's the first thing that Arabs - Arab Governments, the first thing that the Palestinians in the territories - whose situation is really quite desperate - the first thing they raise when we talk to them. I don't think there is any bigger obstacle to peace than the settlement activity that continues not only unabated but at an enhanced pace. That is from Congressional testimony from James Baker III in 1991. The constant settlement encroachment and depriving Palestinians of water ( 40% of Israeli water usage originates in the occupied territories ) have led to the violence.

By the way, the one signed treaty I hinted at was Oslo. Think the extreme right wants peace with the Palestinians? The 1993 Oslo Accords and the 1994 treaty with Jordan ( in which Israel for the first time recognized Jordan's right to exist, before that Jordan was considered part of the ultimate goal of Israel ) were the reason Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated. I often hear the argument that Palestinians don't want peace but will only be happy with the destruction of Israel. And that is certainly true about some groups in Palestine. However, the reverse is also true. From a 1999 interview with former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir in The Middle East Quarterly:

MEQ: "All of the land of Israel is ours," you say. What are its boundaries?

Shamir: From the border of the kingdom of Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea.

MEQ: How should Israel respond if Yasir Arafat declares a state in May?

Shamir: The only possible response: with an Israeli decision to annex all their land.

http://www.meforum.org/article/463

It is extremely naive to think only one side is responsible for the problems in the Middle East. The actions of several Palestinian groups, especially in the past 5 to 10 years, is reprehensible. But I can't bring myself to back statements like this:
Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war... We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle. First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today
I don't see how you can support terrorism.

They are the underdog, every country around them wants to push them into the sea, and are pursuing that end without even really bothering to hide it...and despite all of that they are still there, and even push the other side's superior numbers back.

How can you NOT respect that?
Qibya
Kufr Kassem
Qana
Dair Yassin
Sabra and Shatila
Jenin
King David Hotel

Each of these are sites of Israeli murder of innocent civilians. Just off the top of my head. The numbers range from a low of 49 ( Kufr Kassem ) to 1000's of dead ( estimates of Sabra and Shatila are widely disputed, Israel says only 700, International Red Cross estimates 2700 )

How can you respect that?

But, all this gets off the topic of the security barrier. My opinion is that it is a good idea, if it is kept inside Israel's '67 borders. I'm hopeful that the possible Unity government coming up will restore some balance in the Israeli government. I might even rethink my position on Sharon if he truly disengages. I'm not sure its possible though, politically or realistically.

Fil

One sided but well done Filatal. Now teach Halo how to be as intelligent and well supported.

The Jenin incident, if you're being impartial about it, is at best a condemnation on both groups for using innocents as human shields.



Qibya"The Palestinian critics of the attack do not mention that Israel had suffered more than 450 civilians murdered in attacks by "fedayeen" (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_fedayeen.php) terrorists sponsored by neighboring Jordan and Egypt in the prior three years. IDF tactics had been ineffectual in countering the onslaught that terrorized every part of Israel. Sharon's 101 Unit was ordered to hit the fedayeen, the army bases that supported them, and the villages that housed them. A particularly vicious murder of a Jewish mother and her two infants in Yehud, east of Tel Aviv, the previous night by attackers believed to be from Qibya prompted retaliation against that specific village." 1950s

Kafr Kassem
"The extensive investigation revealed that the local commander had issued an illegal order. As a result, about two years after the event, eleven border policemen were charged with crimes and eight were convicted of murder on the grounds that it is immoral to fire on unarmed civilians and no possible military order could justify that act. Among the convicted were the unit’s commander who had instructed his soldiers to "kill anyone who violated the curfew." Major Meilinki and Lt. Daham were sentenced: the former to 17 years and the latter to 15 years. Those who were imprisoned had their terms reduced; no one served more than three and a half years in jail." Admittedly light sentences I'd have to say, but when compared to the rewards heaped on Arabs who kill Israelis... you'd have to say quite harsh. 1950s

Sabra/Shatila
I could be wrong but from what I understand, it was a Syrian who actually ordered the attacks, which were carried out by Arab Christians. The question is whether the Israelis were responsible by way of having knowledge of what was going on and failing to act to protect those in their "charge." Blaming Israel for atrocities in Lebanon is a rough spot though it seems to me. Syrians, Lebanese, Palestinians... there's a lot of dirty hands in there. What type of treatment do Palestinians receive in Lebanon? 1982?

Qana
Accounts at the time were sensationalized to over 300 dead. Later accounts were around 100. Some accounts say rockets were fired from that position, and 15 minutes later the Israeli troops were given the go ahead to return fire and unintentionally hit the building. It was a tragic event but there is no evidence that they were intentionally targetting these civilians. 1996

Kind David Hotel
This was a response to some very harsh actions taken by the British authorities and the group responsible issued a warning that they were going to blow it up, and they did. Israel condemned the act. 1946
Its interesting to compare for instance the "historical" accounts of clashes of Israelis versus Arabs, and Arabs versus Arabs. Reading the accounts of how Jordan systematically rooted the Palestinians out of their cities which seem so clinical and somehow harmless. The lack of similar hyping of the Damour massacre where thousands of Lebanese Christians were murdered by the a Palestinian/Syrian Army of 16,000 6 years before the Sabra massacre. There are millions more Arabs killed by Arabs since 1946 than Arabs killed by Israelis, and yet all of the attention is placed on the "relatively" few tragic casualties at the hands of the Israelis. Systematic (ongoing) desecration of Jewish holy sites. Here is a list of bombing attack on Israel since 2000.

Nov 2, 2000 - Ayelet Shahar Levy, 28, and Hanan Levy, 33, were killed in a car bomb explosion near the Mahane Yehuda market in Jerusalem. 10 people were injured. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Nov 20, 2000 - A roadside bomb exploded at 7:30 in the morning alongside a bus carrying children from Kfar Darom to school in Gush Katif. Miriam Amitai, 35, and Gavriel Biton, 34, were killed and 9 others, including 5 children, were injured, 5 of them seriously.

Nov 22, 2000 - Shoshanna Reis, 21, of Hadera, and Meir Bahrame, 35, of Givat Olga, were killed, and 60 wounded when a powerful car bomb was denotated alongside a passing bus on Hadera's main street, when the area was packed with shoppers and people driving home from work.

Dec 22, 2000 - Three soldiers were injured in a suicide bomb attack at the Mehola Junction roadside cafe in the northern Jordan Valley. The terrorist, who detonated a belt of explosives strapped to him, was killed in the blast.

Jan 1, 2001 - A car bomb exploded near a bus stop in the shopping district in the center of Netanya. About 60 people were injured, most lightly. One unidentified person, apparently one of the terrorists involved in the bombing, died of severe burns. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 8, 2001 - A powerful car bomb exploded at 4:40 PM in the ultra-Orthodox neighborhood of Beit Yisrael in Jerusalem, causing mild injuries to four people.

Feb 14, 2001 - Eight people were killed and 25 injured when a bus driven by a Palestinian terrorist plowed into a group of soldiers and civilians waiting at a bus stop near Holon, south of Tel-Aviv.

Mar 1, 2001 - One person was killed and 9 injured when a terrorist detonated a bomb in a Tel Aviv to Tiberias service taxi at the Mei Ami junction in Wadi Ara.

Mar 4, 2001 - Three people were killed and at least 60 injured in a suicide bombing in downtown Netanya.

Mar 27, 2001 - A car bomb exploded at 7:40 in the morning in the Talpiot industrial/commercial zone in Jerusalem. Seven people were injured, one moderately. The Islamic Jihad has claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 27, 2001 - 28 people were injured, two seriously, in a suicide bombing directed against a northbound No. 6 bus at the French Hill junction in Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 28, 2001 - Two teenagers were killed and four injured, one critically, in a suicide bombing at the Mifgash Hashalom ("peace stop") gas station several hundred meters from an IDF roadblock near the entrance to Kalkilya, east of Kfar Saba. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Apr 22, 2001 - A terrorist detonated a powerful bomb he was carrying near a group of people waiting at a bus stop on the corner of Weizman and Tchernichovsky streets in Kfar Sava. One person was killed and about 60 injured in the blast, two severely. The terrorist was also killed in the explosion, for which Hamas claimed responsibility.

Apr 23, 2001 - Eight people were lightly hurt in a car bombing in Or Yehuda, a few kilometers north of Ben-Gurion Airport, which senior police officers said could only be described as a "miracle" in an area packed with pre-Independence Day shoppers.

Apr 29, 2001 - A car bomb blew up close to a school bus travelling near the West Bank city of Nablus. There were no injuries in the attack. The body of the suicide bomber was found in the car. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 18, 2001 - A Palestinian suicide bomber wearing an explosive vest detonated himself outside the Hasharon Shopping Mall in the seaside city of Netanya. Five civilians were killed and over 100 wounded in the attack. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 25, 2001 - 65 people were injured in a car bombing in the Hadera central bus station. The two terrorists were apparently killed in the explosion. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

May 27, 2001 - A car bomb exploded in the center of Jerusalem shortly after midnight. There were no injuries. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility.
A bomb exploded at 9:00 in the morning near the intersection of the capital's main Jaffa Road and Heshin Street. The bomb included several mortar shells, some of which were propelled hundreds of meters from the site of the explosion. 30 people were injured, most suffering from shock. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

May 30, 2001 - A car bomb exploded shortly before 16:00 outside a school in Netanya while a number of students were still in the building studying for matriculation exams. Eight people were injured, suffering from shock and hearing impairment. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

June 1, 2001 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2001/6/Tel-Aviv+suicide+bombing+at+the+Dolphin+disco+-+1-.htm) - 21 people were killed and 120 wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up outside a disco near Tel Aviv's Dolphinarium along the seafront promenade just before midnight on Friday, June 1, while standing in a large group of teenagers waiting to enter the disco.

June 22, 2001 - Sgt. Aviv Iszak, 19, of Kfar Saba, and Sgt. Ofir Kit, 19, of Jerusalem, were killed near Dugit in the Gaza Strip as a jeep with yellow Israeli license plates, supposedly stuck in the sand, blew up as they approached. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

July 2, 2001 - Two separate bombs exploded at about 8:20 Monday morning in cars in the Tel-Aviv suburb of Yehud. Six pedestrians were lightly injured. Police sources say the bombs were probably set by terrorists. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, a radical PLO faction, claimed responsibility.

July 9, 2001 - A Palestinian suicide bomber was killed in a car-bombing attack near the Kissufim crossing point in the southern Gaza Strip, causing no other casualties. Disaster was averted as the bomb exploded without hitting any other vehicles. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

July 16, 2001 - Cpl. Hanit Arami, 19, and St.Sgt. Avi Ben Harush, 20, both of Zichron Yaakov, were killed and 11 wounded - 3 seriously - when a bomb exploded in a suicide terrorist attack at a bus stop near the train station in Binyamina, halfway between Netanya and Haifa, at about 19:30 Monday evening. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 8, 2001 - A suicide bomber was killed when he detonated his car bomb, lightly wounding one soldier, at a roadblock near the B'kaot moshav in the northern Jordan Valley shortly after 9:00. One soldier was lightly wounded.

Aug 9, 2001 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2000/10/Suicide+bombing+at+the+Sbarro+pizzeria+in+Jerusale .htm) - 15 people were killed, including 7 children, and about 130 injured in a suicide bombing at the Sbarro pizzeria on the corner of King George Street and Jaffa Road in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas and the Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 12, 2001 - 21 people were injured in a suicide bombing in the Wall Street Cafe in the center of Kiryat Motzkin at 17:30. The terrorist was killed. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 21, 2001 - A bomb placed under a car exploded at 14:15 near the Russian Compound in downtown Jerusalem; one woman was treated for shock. A second, very large unexploded bomb was discovered inside the car and dismantled.

Sept 4, 2001 - 20 people were injured when a suicide terrorist exploded a powerful charge on Hanevi'im Street near Bikur Holim hospital in central Jerusalem shortly before 8:00 AM. The terrorist, disguised as a Jew in ultra-orthodox clothing, aroused the suspicion of passersby due to the large backpack he was wearing. As two Border Police officers approached the man, he detonated his shrapnel-packed bomb. Both officers were wounded - one critically. The terrorist was killed in the blast. Hamas claimed responsibility.

Sept 9, 2001 - Three people were killed and some 90 injured, most lightly, in a suicide bombing near the Nahariya train station in northern Israel. The terrorist, killed in the blast, waited nearby until the train arrived from Tel-Aviv and people were exiting the station, and then exploded the bomb he was carrying. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Sept 9, 2001 - A car bomb exploded at the Beit Lid junction near Netanya, injuring 17 people. One person killed in the explosion is believed to be the terrorist bomber.

Oct 1, 2001 - A large car bomb exploded in the Talpiot neighborhood of Jerusalem. Several people were lightly injured.

Oct 7, 2001 - Yair Mordechai, 43, of Kibbutz Sheluhot was killed when a Palestinian suicide terrorist affiliated with the Islamic Jihad detonated a large bomb strapped to his body near the entrance of the kibbutz in the Beit She'an Valley.

Nov 26, 2001 - A Palestinian suicide bomber killed himself and lightly wounded two Border Policemen at the Erez crossing point in the Gaza Strip. The bomber joined workers waiting to be cleared for entry into Israel. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Nov 29, 2001 - Three people were killed and nine others were wounded in a suicide bombing on an Egged 823 bus en route from Nazereth to Tel Aviv near the city of Hadera. The Islamic Jihad and Fatah claimed responsibility for the attack.

Dec 1, 2001 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2001/12/Suicide+bombing+at+the+Ben-Yehuda+pedestrian+mall.htm) - 11 people were killed and about 180 injured when explosive devices were detonated by two suicide bombers close to 11:30 P.M. Saturday night on Ben Yehuda Street, the pedestrian mall in the center of Jerusalem. A car bomb exploded nearby 20 minutes later. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Dec 2, 2001 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2001/12/Suicide+bombing+on+Haifa+bus+-+2-Dec-2001.htm) - 15 people were killed and 40 injured, several critically, in a suicide bombing on an Egged bus No. 16 in Haifa shortly after 12:00. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Dec 5, 2001 - A suicide bomber exploded a powerful bomb shortly after 7:30 AM on King David Street in Jerusalem. A number of people waiting at a nearby bus stop were lightly injured. The terrorist was killed in the blast. Police are investigating whether the bomb, packed with nails and shrapnel, went off prematurely. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

Dec 9, 2001 - A suicide bomber exploded a powerful bomb near a bus stop at the Checkpost Junction in Haifa shortly after 7:30 AM. About 30 people were injured, most lightly and suffering from shock. A second explosive device was found and detonated nearby. The terrorist was killed.

Dec 12, 2001 - Four people traveling in two cars were lightly wounded in an attack at 18:00 PM by two suicide bombers near the Gaza Strip community of Neve Dekalim.

Jan 25, 2002 - 25 people were wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber detonated explosives outside a cafe on a pedestrian mall near Tel Aviv's old central bus station at 11:15 AM on Friday.

Jan 27, 2002 - Pinhas Tokatli, 81, of Jerusalem was killed and over 150 people were wounded, four seriously, in a suicide bombing on Jaffa Road, in the center of Jerusalem, shortly before 12:30. The female terrorist, identified as a Fatah member, was armed with more than 10 kilos of explosives.

Feb 16, 2002 - Two teenagers were killed and about 30 people were wounded, six seriously, when a suicide bomber blew himself up on Saturday night at a pizzeria in the shopping mall in Karnei Shomron in Samaria. A third person subsequently died of his injuries. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 18, 2002 - Policeman Ahmed Mazarib, 32, of the Bedouin village Beit Zarzir in the Galilee, was killed by a suicide bomber whom he had stopped for questioning on the Ma'ale Adumim-Jerusalem road. The terrorist succeeded in detonating the bomb in his car. The Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 27, 2002 - A Palestinian suicide bomber blew herself up at the Maccabim roadblock on the Jerusalem-Modi'in highway Wednesday night, injuring three policemen.

Mar 2, 2002 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2002/3/Suicide+bombing+in+the+Beit+Yisrael+neighborhood+i .htm) - Eleven people were killed and over 50 were injured, 4 critically, in a suicide bombing at 19:15 on Saturday evening near a yeshiva in the ultra-Orthodox Beit Yisrael neighborhood in the center of Jerusalem where people had gathered for a bar-mitzva celebration. The terrorist detonated the bomb next to a group of women waiting with their baby carriages for their husbands to leave the nearby synagogue. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade took responsibility for the attack.

Mar 5, 2002 - Maharatu Tagana, 85, of Upper Nazareth was killed and a large number of people injured, most lightly, when a suicide bomber exploded in an Egged No. 823 bus as it entered the Afula central bus station. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 7, 2002 - A suicide bomber blew himself up in the lobby of a hotel in the commericial center on the outskirts of Ariel in Samaria. 15 people were injured, one seriously. The PFLP claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 9, 2002 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2002/3/Suicide+bombing+at+Cafe+Moment+in+Jerusalem+-+9-Ma.htm) - 11 people were killed and 54 injured, 10 of them seriously, when a suicide bomber exploded at 22:30 PM Saturday night in the crowded Moment cafe at the corner of Aza and Ben-Maimon streets in the Rehavia neighborhood in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 17, 2002 - A suicide bomber exploded himself near an Egged bus no. 22 at the French Hill junction in northern Jerusalem. 25 people were lightly injured.

Mar 20, 2002 - Seven people, four of them soldiers, were killed and about 30 wounded, several seriously, in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus No. 823 traveling from Tel Aviv to Nazareth at the Musmus junction on Highway 65 (Wadi Ara) near Afula. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 21, 2002 - Three people were killed and 86 injured, 3 of them seriously, in a suicide bombing on King George Street in the center of Jerusalem. The terrorist detonated the bomb, packed with metal spikes and nails, in the center of a crowd of shoppers. The Fatah al-Aqsa Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 27, 2002 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2002/3/Passover+suicide+bombing+at+Park+Hotel+in+Netanya. htm) - 30 people were killed and 140 injured - 20 seriously - in a suicide bombing in the Park Hotel in the coastal city of Netanya, in the midst of the Passover holiday seder with 250 guests. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. The terrorist was a member of Hamas from Tulkarem, on the list of wanted terrorists Israel had requested be arrested.

Mar 29, 2002 - Two people were killed and 28 injured, two seriously when a female suicide bomber blew herself up in the Kiryat Yovel supermarket in Jerusalem. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 30, 2002 - One person was killed and about 30 people were injured in a suicide bombing in a cafe on the corner of Allenby and Bialik streets in Tel-Aviv. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 31, 2002 - 15 people were killed and over 40 injured in a suicide bombing in Haifa, in the Matza restaurant of the gas station near the Grand Canyon shopping mall. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 31, 2002 - An MDA paramedic was very seriously injured along with three other people at 17:00 Sunday afternoon in a suicide bombing at the emergency medical center in Efrat, in the Gush Etzion bloc south of Jerusalem.

Apr 1, 2002 - A police officer was killed in Jerusalem when a Palestinian suicide bomber heading toward the city center blew himself up in his car after being stopped at a roadblock. The Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

Apr 10, 2002 - Eight people were killed and 22 injured in a suicide bombing on Egged bus #960, en route from Haifa to Jerusalem, which exploded near Kibbutz Yagur, east of Haifa. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Apr 12, 2002 - Six people were killed and 104 wounded when a woman suicide bomber detonated a powerful charge at a bus stop on Jaffa road at the entrance to Jerusalem's Mahane Yehuda open-air market. The Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 7, 2002 - 16 people were killed and 55 wounded in a crowded game club in Rishon Lezion, southeast of Tel-Aviv, when a suicide bomber detonated a powerful charge in the 3rd floor club, causing part of the building to collapse. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 19, 2002 - Three people were killed and 59 injured - 10 seriously - when a suicide bomber, disguised as a soldier, blew himself up in the market in Netanya. Both Hamas and the PFLP took responsibility for the attack.

May 20, 2002 - A suicide bomber, apparently bound for Afula, killed himself after Border Policemen approached him for questioning at a bus stop. There were no other injuries.

May 22, 2002 - Two people were killed and about 40 wounded when a suicide bomber detonated himself in the Rothschild Street downtown pedestrian mall of Rishon Lezion.

May 23, 2002 - A bomb planted by terrorists exploded underneath a fuel truck at the Pi Glilot fuel depot north of Tel Aviv. The truck burst into flames, but the blaze was quickly contained.

May 24, 2002 - A security guard opened fire on a terrorist attempting to ram a car bomb into the Studio 49 Disco in Tel Aviv. The terrorist was killed and five Israelis slightly injured when the bomb exploded prematurely.

May 27, 2002 - A grandmother and her infant granddaughter were killed and 37 people were injured, some seriously, when a suicide bomber detonated himself near an ice cream parlor outside a shopping mall in Petah Tikva. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 5, 2002 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2002/6/Suicide+bombing+at+Megiddo+junction+-+5-Jun-2002.htm) - 17 people were killed and 38 injured when a car packed with a large quantity of explosives struck Egged bus No. 830 traveling from Tel-Aviv to Tiberias at the Megiddo junction near Afula. The bus, which burst into flames, was completely destroyed. The terrorist was killed in the blast. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 11, 2002 - A 14-year-old girl was killed and 15 others were wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber set off a relatively small pipe bomb at a shwarma restaurant in Herzliya.

June 18, 2002 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2002/6/Suicide+bombing+at+Patt+junction+in+Jerusalem+-+18.htm) - 19 people were killed and 74 injured - six seriously - in a suicide bombing at the Patt junction in Egged bus no. 32A traveling from Gilo to the center of Jerusalem. The bus, which was completely destroyed, was carrying many students on their way to school. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 19, 2002 - Seven people were killed and 50 injured - three of them in critical condition - when a suicide bomber blew himself up at a crowded bus stop and hitchhiking post at the French Hill intersection in northern Jerusalem shortly after 7:00 P.M., as people were returning home from work. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

July 16, 2002 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2002/7/Terrorist+attack+on+bus+at+Emmanuel+-+July+16-+200.htm) - Nine people were killed and 20 injured in a terrorist attack on Dan bus no. 189 traveling from Bnei Brak to Emmanuel in Samaria. An explosive charge was detonated next to the bullet-resistant bus. The terrorists waited in ambush, reportedly wearing IDF uniforms, and opened fire on the bus. While four terror organizations claimed responsibility for the attack, it was apparently carried out by the same Hamas cell which carried out the attack in Emmanuel on Dec 12, 2001 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2001/12/Terrorist+attack+on+bus+at+Emmanuel+-+12-Dec-2001.htm).

July 17, 2002 - Five people were killed - two Israeli and three foreign workers - and about 40 were injured, four seriously, in a double suicide bombing on Neve Shaanan Street near the old central bus station in Tel Aviv. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

July 30, 2002 - Five people suffered light to moderate injuries in a suicide bombing at a felafel stand on Hanevi'im Street in the center of Jerusalem. The bomber, who was killed, apparently exploded prematurely.

July 31, 2002 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2002/7/Terrorist+bombing+at+Hebrew+University+cafeteria+-.htm) - Nine people were killed and 85 wounded, 14 of them seriously, when a bomb exploded in the Frank Sinatra student center cafeteria on the Hebrew University's Mt. Scopus campus. The explosive device was planted inside the cafeteria, which was gutted by the explosion. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 4, 2002 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2002/8/August+4-+2002-+13+dead+in+a+day+of+terror.htm) - Nine people were killed and some 50 wounded in a suicide bombing of Egged bus No. 361 traveling from Haifa to Safed at the Meron junction in northern Israel. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 5, 2002 - A bomb exploded in a car at the Umm al-Fahm junction in northern Israel, killing the terrorist and wounding the driver, an Arab Israeli resident of Nazareth.

Sept 18, 2002 - Police Sgt. Moshe Hezkiyah, 21, of Elyachin was killed and three people were wounded in a suicide bombing at a bus stop at the Umm al Fahm junction. The terrorist, who was apparently planning to detonate the bomb after boarding a bus, set the charge off early when approached by the police for questioning. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Sept 19, 2002 - Six people were killed and about 70 wounded when a terrorist detonated a bomb in Dan bus No. 4 on Allenby Street, opposite the Great Synagogue in Tel-Aviv. Hamas claimed responsbility for the attack.

Oct 10, 2002 - Sa'ada Aharon, 71, of Ramat Gan was killed and about 30 people were wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up while trying to board Dan bus No. 87 across from Bar-Ilan University on the Geha highway (Route 4). Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 21, 2002 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2002/10/Suicide+bombing+of+Egged+bus+No+841+at+Karkur+junc .htm) - 14 people were killed and some 50 wounded when a car bomb containing about 100 kilograms of explosives was detonated next to a No. 841 Egged bus from Kiryat Shmona to Tel-Aviv, while traveling along Wadi Ara on Route No. 65 toward Hadera. The bus had pulled over at a bus stop when the suicide bomber, from Jenin, driving a jeep, approached from behind and exploded. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 27, 2002 - Two IDF officers and a non-commissioned officer were killed and about 20 people were wounded in a suicide bombing at the Sonol gas station at the entrance to Ariel in Samaria. The victims were killed while trying to prevent the terrorist from detonating the bomb. The terrorist was identified as a member of Hamas.

Nov 4, 2002 - Two people - a security guard and a teenage boy, both recent immigrants from Argentina - were killed and about 70 were wounded in a suicide bombing at a shopping mall in Kfar Sava. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Nov 21, 2002 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2000/10/Suicide+bombing+of+No+20+Egged+bus+in+Kiryat+Menah .htm) - Eleven people were killed and some 50 wounded by a suicide bomber on a No. 20 Egged bus on Mexico Street in the Kiryat Menahem neighborhood of Jerusalem. The bus was filled with passengers, including schoolchildren, traveling toward the center of the city during rush hour. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Jan 5, 2003 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2003/1/Suicide+bombing+at+old+central+bus+station+in+Tel-.htm) - Twenty-two people were killed and about 120 wounded in a double suicide bombing near the old Central Bus Station in Tel-Aviv. The attack was apparently carried out by two members of the Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, with the help of the Islamic Jihad.

Mar 5, 2003 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2004/1/Suicide+bombing+of+Egged+bus+No+37+in+Haifa+-+5-Ma.htm) - Seventeen people were killed and 53 wounded in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus #37 on Moriah Blvd. in the Carmel section of Haifa, en route to Haifa University. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 30, 2003 - Over 40 people were wounded in a suicide bombing on the pedestrian mall at the entrance to the London Cafe in the center of Netanya. The bomber was killed. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Apr 24, 2003 - Alexander Kostyuk, a 23-year-old security guard from Bat Yam, was killed and 13 were wounded, two seriously, in a suicide bombing outside the train station in Kfar Sava. Groups related to the Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades and the PFLP clamied joint responsibility for the attack.

Apr 30, 2003 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2003/Details+of+April+30-+2003+Tel+Aviv+suicide+bombing.htm) - Three people were killed and about 60 peoople were wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up at a beachfront pub "Mike's Place" in Tel Aviv. The Fatah Tanzim and Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack, carried out as a joint operation. Investigation revealed (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2003/Further+details+on+April+30-+2003+suicide+bombing.htm) that the two British Muslims involved in the suicide bombing were dispatched to perpetrate the attack by the Hamas military command in the Gaza Strip.

May 17, 2003 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2003/5/Palestinian+Terrorism-+A+Wave+of+Suicide+Bombings.htm) - Gadi Levy and his wife Dina, aged 31 and 37, of Kiryat Arba were killed by a suicide bomber in Hebron. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 18, 2003 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2003/5/Palestinian+Terrorism-+A+Wave+of+Suicide+Bombings.htm#bus6) - Seven people were killed and 20 wounded in a suicide bombing on Egged bus no. 6 near French Hill in Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
A second suicide bomber detonated his bomb when intercepted by police in northern Jerusalem. The terrorist was killed; no one else was injured.

May 19, 2003 - Three IDF soldiers were lightly injured when a Palestinian on a bicycle detonated explosives next to a military jeep near Kfar Darom in the southern Gaza Strip. The bomber was killed. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 19, 2003 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2003/5/Palestinian+Terrorism-+A+Wave+of+Suicide+Bombings.htm#afula) - Three people were killed and about 70 wounded in a suicide bombing at the entrance to the Amakim Mall in Afula. The Islamic Jihad and the Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades both claimed responsibility for the attack.

May 22, 2003 - Nine Israelis were injured when a roadside bomb was detonated next to a bus near Netzarim in the Gaza Strip.

June 11, 2003 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2003/6/Suicide+bombing+of+Egged+bus+No+14A+in+Jerusalem+-.htm) - Seventeen people were killed and over 100 wounded in a suicide bombing on Egged bus #14A outside the Clal building on Jaffa Road in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 19, 2003 - Avner Mordechai, 58, of Moshav Sde Trumot, was killed when a suicide bomber blew up in his grocery on Sde Trumot, south of Beit Shean. The suicide bomber was killed. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

July 7, 2003 - Mazal Afari, 65, of Moshav Kfar Yavetz was killed in her home on Monday evening and three of her grandchildren lightly wounded in a terrorist suicide bombing. The remains of the bomber were also found in the wreckage of the house. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 12, 2003 - Erez Hershkovitz, 18, of Eilon Moreh, was killed and three people wounded when a teenaged Palestinian suicide bomber detonated himself at a bus stop outside Ariel. Amatzia Nisanevitch, 22, of Nofim, died of his wounds on August 28.

Aug 19, 2003 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2003/8/Suicide+bombing+of+No+2+Egged+bus+in+Jerusalem+-+1.htm) - Twenty-three people were killed and over 130 wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber detonated himself on a No. 2 Egged bus in Jerusalem's Shmuel Hanavi neighborhood. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Sept 9, 2003 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2003/9/Suicide+Bombings-+Tzrifin+and+Jerusalem+-+Septembe.htm) - Nine IDF soldiers were killed and 30 people were wounded in a suicide bombing at a hitchhiking post for soldier outside a main entrance to the Tzrifin army base and Assaf Harofeh Hospital. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Sept 9, 2003 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2003/9/Suicide+Bombings-+Tzrifin+and+Jerusalem+-+Septembe.htm#hillel) - Seven people were killed and over 50 wounded in a suicide bombing at Cafe Hillel on Emek Refaim St., the main thoroughfare of the German Colony neighborhood in Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 4, 2003 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2004/1/Suicide+bombing+of+Maxim+restaurant+in+Haifa+-+4-O.htm) - Twenty-one people were killed, including four children, and 60 wounded in a suicide bombing carried out by a female terrorist from Jenin in the Maxim restaurant in Haifa. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 9, 2003 - A Palestinian suicide bomber exploded himself at the DCO located at the entrance to Tulkarm. The bomber approached the reception window and exploded himself, injuring two IDF soldiers and a Palestinian.

Oct 15, 2003 - Three Americans were killed and one wounded at the Beit Hanoun junction in the Gaza Strip when a massive bomb demolished an armor-plated jeep in a convoy carrying U.S. diplomats.

Nov 3, 2003 - A suicide bomber blew himself up in the West Bank village of Azun, near Kafr Qasem, when he saw Israeli security officials searching for him. One IDF soldier was lightly wounded. The Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade claimed responsibility for the failed attack.

Dec 25, 2003 - Four Israelis were killed and over 20 wounded in a suicide bombing at a bus stop at the Geha Junction, east of Tel Aviv, near Petah Tikva. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility for the attack.

Jan 14, 2004 - Four Israelis - three soldiers and one civilian - were killed and 10 wounded when a female suicide bomber detonated a bomb at the Erez Crossing in the Gaza Strip. Hamas and the Fatah Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed joint responsibility for the attack.

Jan 29, 2004 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2004/1/Suicide+bombing+of+Egged+bus+no+19+in+Jerusalem+-.htm) - Eleven people were killed and over 50 wounded, 13 of them seriously, in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus no. 19 at the corner of Gaza and Arlozorov streets in Jerusalem. The Fatah-related Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack, naming the bomber as Ali Yusuf Jaara, a 24-year-old Palestinian policeman from Bethlehem. Feb 22, 2004 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2004/2/Suicide+bombing+of+Egged+bus+no.+14A+in+Jerusalem+-+22-Feb-2004.htm) - Eight people were killed and over 60 wounded, 11 of them school pupils, in a suicide bombing on Jerusalem bus no. 14A near the Liberty Bell Park. The Fatah Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack, which was carried out by Mohammed Za'ul, from the Bethlehem area.
Mar 6, 2004 - Two Palestinian policemen were killed in a terror attack on the Erez crossing in northern Gaza involving rifle fire and suicide car bombs, including jeeps camouflaged as IDF vehicles. Two of the vehicles exploded on the Palestinian side of the crossing, and four terrorists were killed. There were no IDF casualties. Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the military wing of Fatah all claimed responsibility.

Mar 14, 2004 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2004/3/Suicide+bombing+at+Ashdod+Port+14-Mar-2004.htm) - Ten people were killed and 16 wounded in a double suicide bombing at Ashdod Port. Hamas and Fatah claimed responsibility for the attack.

Apr 17, 2004 - Border Policeman Sgt. Kfir Ohayon, 20, of Eilat was killed, three others wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up at the Erez Crossing. Hamas and Fatah claimed joint responsibility for the attack.

May 22, 2004 - A suicide bomber was killed when he detonated an explosive device at the Bekaot checkpoint in the northern Jordan Valley. The commander of the IDF checkpoint was lightly injured, as well as several Palestinians. The PFLP claimed responsibility for the attack.

Calling people anti-semetic
Quick clue for Halo, Semetic means both the Israeli and Arabic ethnicities. That is why I say anti-Israeli.


I've given up on the discussion as I addressed several posts full of links, facts, and corrections

Facts like saying Russia isn't a part of Europe?

Dismissing/ignoring the makeup of the court and the fact that it is terribly(and obviously) biased?

Links?

Are you talking about your one broken link to bbc?

I don't think you gave up on the discussion, because that would actually mean you were discussing instead of retreating to good ol Halo bs.

Now then, Filatal


Nice cut and paste from jcpa.org ( Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs ).

Sure was..no point in typing it all out when it was already in a nice easy format.

Are you disputing the information?


Every proposal

Um... it's more than a proposal when both sides have agreed to it.


That is from Congressional testimony from James Baker III in 1991

Perhaps you may recall in 2000 when Barak met with Arafat in Camp David?

You know, the one you keep bringing up?

Maybe the fact that he offered unprecedented concessions to Arafat like withdrawing from the Gaza strip and 95% of the West Bank, with Israeli land traded for the 5% of the West Bank Israel wasn't withdrawing from, and creation of a Palestinian state in those areas?

Even offered Palestinians control of East Jerusalem and religious sovereignty over the Temple Mount?

In return for all of that all Arafat had to do was agree to no further land claims against Israel and an end to the conflict.

Does that not sound like almost everything the Palestinians were after?

Do you know what Arafat did?

He didn't even give a counter offer, he walked out of the negotiations.

What was your point about Israeli settlements again?

By the way, the frustration of Palestinians over THIS failure of diplomacy is what launched the Al Aqsa intifada.

Sharone was just an excuse.

During that intifada there were numerous attempts to follow up on the Camp David negotiations..all failed because the Palestinians refused the Israeli proposals but brought no proposals of their own to the table.


abandonment of the right of return.

Give me a fucking break. The right of return is nothing more than an attempt to have a massive influx of Palestinians into Israel and turn it from its current state into Palestinian state part 2.

You know you should really mention that when you say you "fully support Israel's right to exist" you really mean Israel's right to exist as a Palestinian controlled state.

Oh, by the way:


Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war... We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle. First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today

Where did he say that?

It sure as hell isn't anywhere in the article you linked.

Qibya:


The Palestinian critics of the attack do not mention that Israel had suffered more than 450 civilians murdered in attacks by "fedayeen" (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_fedayeen.php) terrorists sponsored by neighboring Jordan and Egypt in the prior three years. IDF tactics had been ineffectual in countering the onslaught that terrorized every part of Israel. Sharon's 101 Unit was ordered to hit the fedayeen, the army bases that supported them, and the villages that housed them. A particularly vicious murder of a Jewish mother and her two infants in Yehud, east of Tel Aviv, the previous night by attackers believed to be from Qibya prompted retaliation against that specific village.
In the attack, as the force approached the village, hundreds of Qibya residents were seen fleeing. Sharon's unit believed that all residents had fled. But some of the Arabs thought the action against the village would entail only the harmless destruction of a few outbuildings, as had been the prior Israeli practice, and so hid in their houses. According to the official IDF Encyclopedia, the soldiers found a young girl in one house and an elderly man in another. Any such inhabitants discovered were chased away.

IDF engineers blew up dozens of Qibya houses. When the mission was complete, Sharon and his men reported that they had destroyed 42 buildings and killed 10 to 12 people, all soldiers or guards. Had it been the Israeli intention to kill civilians, the defenseless villagers fleeing Qibya would have been prime targets – instead the IDF allowed them to leave unharmed. Afterward it was discovered that 69 civilians were hiding inside the homes. In "Warrior," Sharon's autobiography, he wrote that he found out about the civilian casualties only the next day, listening to Jordanian radio. Their deaths were not deliberate; they were unfortunate casualties of the defensive action of the IDF responding to terrorist attacks.

It is standard propaganda tactics to call this accident of war a "massacre" or an "atrocity" while ignoring the deliberate targeting of the Israeli civilian population by the fedayeen. Apparently Palestinian Arabs have no problem with killing Israelis (in 1953 or now), but if Israel takes steps to defend itself any Arab casualties are an atrocity.

Kufr Kassem:


On October 29, 1956, on the eve of the Sinai Campaign (http://palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_sinai_backgd.php), the Israeli army ordered all Israeli Arab villages near the Jordanian border placed under a wartime curfew that was to apply from 5 p.m. until 6 a.m. the next day. Any Arab on the streets was to be shot. The order was given to Israeli Border Police units at 3:30 before most of the Arabs from the villages could be notified. Many of them were at work at the time.

At Kfar Kassem, villagers began to arrive from work to their homes after the curfew. Israeli Border Police opened fire on them. A total of 47 Israeli Arabs were killed (some sources say 51 dead). The news of the killings was censored and the general Israeli public did not learn what happened until several weeks later when Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion announced the findings of a secret inquiry. The event was shocking to the Israeli public who demanded, and got, a full investigation. Prime Minister Ben Gurion said the act, "struck at the holiest principles of human morality", perhaps reminded of Nazis who claimed they were "just following orders".

The extensive investigation revealed that the local commander had issued an illegal order. As a result, about two years after the event, eleven border policemen were charged with crimes and eight were convicted of murder on the grounds that it is immoral to fire on unarmed civilians and no possible military order could justify that act. Among the convicted were the unit’s commander who had instructed his soldiers to "kill anyone who violated the curfew." Major Meilinki and Lt. Daham were sentenced: the former to 17 years and the latter to 15 years.


The Israeli Supreme Court made a new ruling on the right and duty of soldiers to disobey unlawful orders. That ruling has been incorporated into Israeli martial law. On the 43rd anniversary of the incident (1999), Israeli civics teachers were instructed to lead a one-hour discussion on Kafr Kassem in their classes. Israel wants its future soldiers to understand the need to identify and disobey an illegal order in accordance with the Supreme Court ruling.

In contrast to Israel's Arab opponents, Israel takes the responsibility to protect civilian non-combatants very seriously indeed. Kafr Kassem has not been forgotten by Palestinian Arabs who refer to it inaccurately as a purposeful massacre. Israelis have not forgotten it either, as an example of a continuing need for a disciplined army, directed by civilian authority, that will live up to the high moral standards of the country.

Qana:


Van Kappen's report makes clear that Katyushas were fired near the U.N. compound on two occasions: once between 12:30 and 1 p.m. from a site about 600 m southeast of the base, and another sometime between noon and 2 p.m. from a spot around 350 m southeast of the Fijians' headquarters. Then, just about 2 o'clock, the mortars were launched from a vacant lot some 220 m southwest of the compound's center. This neighborhood became the focus for a concentration of 17 incoming Israeli shells. According to the U.N., all but one of them were "impact-fuzed." This is ordnance that detonates on hitting something solid, and so the better ammunition against precise, fixed targets such as weapons emplacements.

Dir Yassin:


Dir Yassin was certainly not a massacre of a peaceful village, but rather was an Arab-Jewish battle with unfortunate civilian casualties.

Dir Yassin lies on a hill west of Jerusalem, eight hundred meters above sea level, and 700 meters from the Jewish neighbourhood of Givat Shaul. The Dir Yassin fortified position overlooked the westerly Jewish neighborhoods: Givat Shaul, Bet Hakerem, Yefe Nof, and the road to Bayit Vagan. The village also overlooked the section of road linking Jerusalem to Tel-Aviv. Dir Yassin served as a halfway site for forces moving up from the Arab villages of Ein Karem and Malha in the south to Kastel and Kolonia, which overlooked the main Jerusalem - Tel Aviv road.

On April 2, 1948, the Arab inhabitants of Dir Yassin began sniping at the Jewish Quarters of Bet Hakerem and Yefe Nof. According to reports by the Shai (Haganah Intelligence), fortifications were being constructed in the village and a large quantity of arms being stockpiled. Several days before the attack on Dir Yassin, the presence of foreign fighters was reported, including Iraqi soldiers and irregular forces. An Arab research study conducted at Bir Zeit University (near Ramallah) relates that the men of Dir Yassin took an active part in violent acts against Jewish targets and that many of the men of the village fought in the battle for Kastel, together with Abd-el-Kadr el-Husseini. The report also stated that trenches had been dug at the entry to the village, and that more than 100 men had been trained and equipped with rifles and Bren guns. A local guard force had been set up and 40 inhabitants guarded the village every night.

On April 6, 1948, Operation Nachshon was launched by the Haganah with the aim of opening up the road to Jerusalem. The Palmach was part of this effort together with the Irgun (under Menachem Begin) and Lehi forces, their first combined operation. On Thursday, April 8, 1948 they launched an attack on Dir Yassin between 4 and 5 AM. A loudspeaker mounted on an armored car warned the Arabs and asked them to evacuate their women and children. Hundreds left, but hundreds stayed. A pitched battle ensued, and when the smoke cleared, 110 to 120 Arabs were killed, 40 Jews were seriously injured and four Jews were dead. The number killed has been confirmed even by Palestinian Arab researchers, such as Bir Zeit University professor Sharif Kanaana who puts the number no higher than 120 (although he clings to the claim of massacre). Another contemporary Arab source deflates the number killed to less than 100, stating, after a count, "that there were no more than 46 corpses". The head of the coroner unit, professor Yehoshua Arieli, testified that the number was 110.

The use of the loudsepaker to warn the civilians to evacuate is a key point, certainly not the action of soldiers planning to murder the population. The loudspeaker is not in dispute. A publication of the Arab League titled Israeli Aggression states:


On the night of April 9, 1948, the peaceful Arab village of Deir Yassin was surprised by a loudspeaker, which called on the population to evacuate it immediately.
The village was not peaceful, but the essential part of this quote agrees with Jewish accounts.

The massacre claim, meaning the killing of defenceless people, has long since been discredited by the Israeli government and every other historical study. The story persists because pro-Arab sources constantly repeat it, often inflating the number of dead to 250 or more. There are completely fictional accounts written about Arabs being marched to the mosque and shot against the walls, or even worse stories of torture, rape or any other shocking aspect the storyteller invents. As an example, here is how one Arab website describes the scene:


[The Jews used] machine guns, then grenades and finished of with knives. Women's bellies were cut open and babies were butchered in the hands of their helpless mothers. Around 250 people were murdered in cold blood. Of them 25 pregnant women were bayoneted in the abdomen while still alive. 52 children were maimed under the eyes of their own mothers, and they were slain and their heads cut off.
To say there is not a shread of evidence for these embellishments is giving them too much credit.



On the contrary, there are eyewitness accounts from the time, Jewish and Arab, that tell the story as it happened. For example, according to the Daily Telegraph, April 8, 1998, Ayish Zeidan, a resident of the village and a survivor of the fighting there, stated:

The Arab radio talked of women being killed and raped, but this is not true... I believe that most of those who were killed were among the fighters and the women and children who helped the fighters. The Arab leaders committed a big mistake. By exaggerating the atrocities they thought they would encourage people to fight back harder. Instead they created panic and people ran away.
Dir Yassin was a reasonable military target for Jewish forces, there was warning given before the battle, a fierce battle was fought with casualties on both sides. No massacre, no mutiliations, no atrocities.

Palestinian Arab eyewitnesses have recently admitted that some of their claims about Dir Yassin were deliberate fabrications. The issue of the Jerusalem Report dated April 2, 1998 describes a BBC television program in which Hazem Nusseibeh, an editor of the Palestine Broadcasting Service's Arabic news in 1948, admits that he was told by Hussein Khalidi, a prominent Palestinian Arab leader, to fabricate claims of atrocities at Dir Yassin in order to encourage Arab regimes to invade the expected Jewish state.

According to the Jerusalem Report:


Nusseibeh "describes an encounter at the Jaffa Gate of Jerusalem's Old City with Deir Yassin survivors and Palestinian leaders, including Hussein Khalidi... 'I asked Dr. Khalidi how we should cover the story,' recalled Nusseibeh. 'He said, "We must make the most of this." So we wrote a press release stating that at Deir Yassin children were murdered, pregnant women were raped. All sorts of atrocities.' "
The BBC program then shows a recent interview with Abu Mahmud, who was a Dir Yassin resident in 1948, who says:


... the villagers protested against the atrocity claims: We said, "There was no rape." [Khalidi] said, "We have to say this, so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews."
Khalidi was one of the originators of the "massacre" allegation in 1948. It was Khalidi's claims about Jewish atrocities in Dir Yassin that were the basis for an article in the New York Times by its correspondent, Dana Schmidt (on April 12, 1948), claiming a massacre took place. The Times article has been widely reprinted and cited as "proof" of the massacre throughout the past 50 years.

Sabra and Shatila:


On September 16, 1982 the Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia entered the Beruit refugee camps called Sabra and Shatila. Their mission was authorized by the Israeli IDF, under the command of Defense Minister Ariel Sharon, that held the territory around Beruit at that point in time as a result of the June 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon (http://palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_lebanon_198x_backgd.php). The Phalangists were looking for PLO fighters who, it was feared, had avoided evacuation from Beruit by hiding among the refugees. There were estimates of perhaps 200 armed men in the camps working out of the countless bunkers built by the PLO over the years, and stocked with generous reserves of ammunition.

The Phalangists, whose Maronite Christian president, Bachir Gemayel, had just been assassinated on September 14, entered the camps on the afternoon of the 16th and carried out a 62-hour rampage of rape and murder until Saturday morning, September 18th. They were motivated by revenge for the Gemayel killing and also for the years of brutality Lebanese suffered at the hands of Palestinians during the PLO occupation of Lebanon. [Later information revealed that Gemayel was assassinated by the Syrians, who opposed his alliance with the Israelis, and not by the PLO].

When Israeli soldiers were alerted to the massacre and ordered the Phalangists out, they found hundreds dead, including as many as 35 women and children. The rest were men: Palestinians, Lebanese, Pakistanis, Iranians, Syrians and Algerians. This was a small toll when compared to the tens of thousand who had died in the years of civil war and fighting with the PLO in Lebanon, but these deaths kindled crys of outrage in Israel, and internationally outside the Middle East. Curiously, there was little protest at the time in the Arab world, although "Sabra-Shatila" has now become a mantra of the Palestinian Arabs as a code word for their allegations of Israeli brutality. Most protests were (and are) directed at the Israelis, not the the Phalangists, who perpetrated the crime.

Jenin:


From the Boston Globe, April 29, 2002:


Palestinian Authority allegations that a large-scale massacre of civilians was committed by Israeli troops during their invasion of the refugee camp here appear to be crumbling under the weight of eyewitness accounts from Palestinian fighters who participated in the battle and camp residents who remained in their homes until the final hours of the fighting. In interviews yesterday with teenage fighters, a leader of Islamic Jihad, an elderly man whose home was at the center of the fighting, and other Palestinian residents, all of whom were in the camp during the battle, none reported seeing large numbers of civilians killed.
The final toll of the battle was 52 to 56 Palestinian Arabs dead, mostly armed fighters, while Israel lost 23 of their soldiers. A tough urban pitched battle, but in no way a massacre.

United Press International (UPI) published a three part series of articles (see Sources below) examining the media's treatment of the phony Jenin massacre story, describing how the US news outlets did relatively well in containing the false rumors while their uncritical acceptance constituted a "humiliation for Western European governments and left-leaning media leaders."

The after-battle reports made clear that the IDF took great care to avoid civilian casualties, the opposite of Palestinian claims, and took higher Israeli casualties as a result. When faced with strong resistence in a congested urban area filled with explosives, snipers, and booby-traps the easy course for Israel would have been a massive air attack to flatten the area. Instead, the IDF engaged the terrorists in house-to-house fighting that spared civilians as much as possible. Non-combatant casualties would have been even lower if the Palestinian terrorists had not used civilians as shields and decoys.

Initially the United Nations called for an investigation of Israel's actions in Jenin, but dropped the probe when it became clear that there was no massacre or atrocities. In counterpoint, American congressmen and others called for an investigation of the United Nations whose UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) was in charge of the Jenin refugee camp. How did Jenin become a world center for recruiting and training suicide bombers under UN supervision?

King David Hotel:


on July 22, 1946, the resistance struck at the King David Hotel, the south wing of which housed the British military command and the Mandatory government secretariat. Although a warning was given one-half hour before the explosion, 91 people were killed: 28 Britons, 41 Arabs, 17 Jews and 5 others.
The traumatic events, such as the Black Sabbath and the bombing of the King David Hotel. showed Ben-Gurion and the Zionist leadership that violence of the sort pursued by the United Resistance Movement was no longer viable and that it was urgent to forge a political link between Zionism, the United States, and the Holocaust survivors in the struggle for a Jewish state. Ben-Gurion severed his relationship with the Irgun and Lehi.

http://palestinefacts.org (http://palestinefacts.org/)

Food for thought if you disagree that Europe has serious problems with being anti-Israeli/anti-Jewish:


Jean-Francois Cope, a government spokesman, said the veracity of the woman's story should not take away from France's need to curb hate crimes.
"The explosion of the number of racist and anti-Semitic acts committed in our country in the last few years is a reality that we must combat," said Cope.

There have been 510 anti-Jewish acts or threats in the first six months of 2004, compared to 593 in all of 2003.

510 incidents of hate crimes or threats aimed at Jews in France alone, this year alone.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/07/13/Frenchattack_040713.html

France has a Jewish population of 600,000...so almost 1 in 1000 Jews in France have been threatened or attacked because of their ethnicity so far this year.

Oh, and just to update this topic, Israel is continuing construction of its wall, however it has changed some of the planned locations...not because of anything the ICJ did, but because of it's own court system.

American giving lessons about anti semitism and racism :p I m curious how many racists act happened in the usa this year. Its not like you can even check 1/4 of it tho!!! since in some place police can't even go patrol.

American giving lessons about anti semitism and racism :p

What's so funny about that?

We have ten times as many people of Jewish ethnicity in the US compared to France and five times your total population yet our latest compilation(2002) only shows 931 incidents of hate crimes against Jews in the US.

1 in 600 chance for hate crimes against Jews by the end of the year in France(if the trend continues) versus 1 in 6000 in the US.

Or, if you are a Jew in France you are 10 times more likely to be a victim of a hate crime this year than if you lived in the US.

Under those circumstances I don't think it humorous at all to suggest we school your country on the subject..do you?


since in some place police can't even go patrol

Where did you get this idea?

That was a very ill-informed and puzzling post, Kinu.

Lol wth kind of bullshit are they feeding you over there? Well I guess you're right, they better not come in my friggin house.

Look, the point is well taken though. America has its own racial divisions and problems. One report which was widely popularized through the UN, showed that hate crimes toward Arabs and Muslims in the US rose 1700 percent in 2001 following the September 11 attack. Still the total number of reported (not all proven to be substantiated) cases were fewer than 600. But the focus here was on the ICJ and anti-Israeli bias.

That was a very ill-informed and puzzling post, Kinu.Not really, you guys are making ill informed posts. For one I was talking about racism in general and not just toward jewish, if you tell me there is no black/muslim racism in usa you're a bit out of touch.

Yup winterworg so what about telling crist0 and co to stay on subject instead of trying to point out something with his dirty finger when worse things happened and still happens ( albeit much rarer) in his country hmm?

Wrote a fairly long post but edited it out, don't wish to argue on this point really, make another thread about it if you want. It doesn't have much to do with current subject.

Anti-Jewish sentiment in Europe has a lot to do with this subject actually.

worse things happened and still happens ( albeit much rarer)

Really?

What worse things?

We haven't even had similar things since the civil rights movement in the South and widespread burning of black churches...that was some time ago, yet in your country people are burning Jewish churches, schools and businesses to this day.

Kinu there were 28 incidents of anti-muslim hate crimes in the US in 2000, and 460ish in the US in 2001. The numbers have gone back down since 2001. Do you think that statistically those numbers are even close to the anti-jewish crime numbers in France? Looks like you're a bit out of touch.

I know it would be more convenient for you to just believe your news and decide we're all over here running around with assault rifles and killing every muslim we see but its just not true. I was watching BBC World news last night and they had a big story of Kofi Annan blaming the US for the spread of AIDS in Africa because we weren't spending nearly enouh money to help them out... only 1 billion dollars this year. They insinuated that we were turning away from the problem because of the muslim population of a lot of the countries... wth?

Not arguing on this but please drop the crack pot, burning church school ? Lol the biggest anti jewish crime to date has been profanating graves.

I m done arguing on this, don't want to get into this crap. Just read your own history instead of trying to lecture me.

kinu got ownd at his own "lets try bull shit everything" game and is running away /cries

>Wrote a fairly long post but edited it out, don't wish to argue on this point really, make another thread about it if you want. It doesn't have much to do with current subject

yea, somehow i doubt that...

isn't it about time you say something along the lines of "not posting again" and then post again?

Not arguing on this but please drop the crack pot, burning church school ? Lol the biggest anti jewish crime to date has been profanating graves.


Mayhaps your press has been taken over by the EU and they are already deciding what you read and watch, but even the UK media knows otherwise:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3275519.stm

http://www.betar.co.uk/articles/betar1086188378.php

http://www.genocidewatch.org/AntiSemitismJuly16France.htm

Naw gokuu I said I wouldn't post on the subject hjiack :) I ll post again on the thread thing if there is something to add which right now there isn't.
And I had a long post for about 30min which I edited out because it was too aggressive. Now if you don't believe me, honestly I could give a crap about you :)

Edit: I stand corrected on the burning school issue, didn't see that one.

thats ok, feeling is mutual :) :) :) <faces!! because they give effect!!>

doesn't seemed hijack, seems you got cought not knowing anything (again), and where is this long post? you keep saying you have this "long" post but its never to be seen, its a fairy tale, everyone is waiting for one but never to be seen

"Chirac undercut his own prime minister during a July 29 meeting in Paris with Israeli Deputy Prime Minister Shimon Peres by suggesting that criticism of France's belated reaction to anti-Semitic attacks was "an insult" and part of a worldwide Jewish conspiracy involving U.S. Jewish groups taking orders from Jerusalem."

"During the last three months of 2000 alone, physical violence included 44 firebombings, 43 attacks on synagogues and 39 assaults on Jews as they were leaving places of worship. And yet, for all of it, the French police made just a few dozen arrests."

"This spring violence against French Jews reached new heights. Major synagogues were burned in Paris, Marseilles, Lyons and Strasbourg, and Jews regularly were attacked in the streets. When the French government still did nothing to quell the violence, the Wiesenthal Center issued a travel advisory warning American Jews against traveling to France. The American Jewish Congress (AJC) took out full-page advertisements in newspapers urging U.S. filmmakers and distributors to boycott the Cannes Film Festival. Chirac, in the middle of what at first appeared to be a difficult re-election campaign, furiously protested that France was not anti-Semitic."

"National Front leader Le Pen has been condemned several times in French courts for anti-Semitic statements and Holocaust denials, but his favorite target in recent years has been the more than 5 million Muslim immigrants living in France, who account for roughly 10 percent of the population. Le Pen's upset victory in the first round of the French presidential elections this spring led to massive demonstrations against racism and an abrupt (if temporary) end to anti-Semitic attacks."

"A senior deputy to Le Pen, Dominique Chaboche, called the wave of anti-Semitic attacks "very limited acts. We're talking about a few fires, a few slogans, a few insults," he tells Insight. "It's intolerable that French Jews are Jews first, and French second. … When we criticize Jewish control of the media we are called anti-Semites. It's not true. Just because I don't like [painter Marc] Chagall doesn't make me an anti-Semite.""

Le Pen didnt have the Jews or the Muslims voting for him... but he won over 20 percent of the vote. Chirac refused to vote for Hezbollah to be added to the international terror list.

http://www.lexnotes.com/misc/jacques_iraq.htm

It's very telling that Kinu is so much more sensitive to and interested in whether Muslims experience racism in the US than whether Jews experience racism in France. You don't know that a Jewish church got firebombed but you do seem to think you're so informed on whats going on over here.

It's very telling that Kinu is so much more sensitive to and interested in whether Muslims experience racism in the US than whether Jews experience racism in France. You don't know that a Jewish church got firebombed but you do seem to think you're so informed on whats going on over here.Ok so you completly missed the point, I m saying mind your own business. If you want to give lessons fix your own problems first. I m not saying france has no racism problems, we have plenty.

I didn't know about the school nope but then I don't manage to follow every single thing that happens in my country. I m sure racism isn't your main problem in the usa, your news are plenty busy with irak and economic state of the country. As far as quoting articles from all over the place, apologies but right now I m mid raiding and don't have time to do it, I know about as much on usa racisms problem than you do on france ones. Hitting it on google isn't exactly hard.

On this note, not posting again on the issue ( there you got it). I have other things to do right now. I promised myself I wouldn't post anymore on A.RO since it always end up in that kind of shit but guess I couldn't resist the european court thing !

You made a wrong statement in each of your posts. You were proven wrong. You've been able to produce nothing to support you feeling that what I have said is wrong. So now you suggest that we're not hearing about racism here because the news is too busy. The fact is the contrary is true... whenever there is a racially motivated crime its widely publicized, and in fact we have specific laws imposing strict penalties against those who commit these crimes.

I watch the BBC World broadcast and I see how out of their way they go to find bad things to say about the US. On this board the US is criticized constantly. Yet when your hipocrisy is being shown on this issue you say... "If you want to give lessons fix your own problems first."

So I suggest... wake up to your problems. Your politicians are trading Jews for Oil... and for votes.

I know about as much on usa racisms problem than you do on france ones.

On the contrary, if I hadn't known something of it I wouldn't have known to bring it up in the first place.

Apologies for it taking me a bit to respond, but you guys left me with a lot of verbage to refute. Add to the fact that I won't use websites with pro-Palestinian slants ( you'll just say they are biased, even though you guys use lots of extreme Israeli sites ). I will however, use your pro-Israeli sites. :) Let's begin.

Crist0 quoted palestinefacts.org on Kufr Kassem. Note in my post above, I had already stated that the Israeli courts had made a great decision "in response to Kufr Kassem". He forgot to mention that no one served more than 3.5 years. 3.5 years for standing at the village gates and gunning down 49 people as they returned from work for the crime of not knowing there was a curfew in effect.

Odd that Winter picked up on the fact that all the soldiers were pardoned, posted before Crist0 and yet Crist0 still failed to mention that fact. It's ok, Crist0. I don't think you're intentionally dishonest, just easily duped. You should really try to get more than one source of information ( and no, palestinefacts.org, jcpa.org, betar.org, us-israel.org, and any other pro-Israel site only counts as one source. Certainly useful, but not complete. Read both sides of the situation and try using your grey matter ).

Sabra and Shatila: Oh boy. The Kahan Commision is the official Israeli inquiry into that weekend. It is long, but you can find a copy of it here: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/kahan.html
There were certainly armed people in the refugee camp. Considering there were only two deaths among the IDF/Phalangists over 3 days, they were most likely not heavily armed. Some highlights from Kahan:

"On Thursday, 16.9.82, at approximately 18:00 hours, members of the Phalangists entered the Shatilla camp from the west and south."

"Initially, the illumination was provided by a mortar company, and subsequently also by aircraft; but because the illumination from the planes interfered with the evacuation of casualties of an I.D.F. unit, this source of illumination was halted; mortar illumination continued intermittently throughout the night."

"As a result of the second action the Intelligence Officer received a report according to which the Phalangists' liaison officer had heard via radio from one of the Phalangists inside the camps that he was holding 45 people. That person asked what he should do with the people, and the liaison officer's reply was "Do the will of God," or words to that effect. The Intelligence Officer received this report at approximately 20:00 hours from the person on the roof who heard the conversation. He did not convey the report to anyone else, because an officers' briefing was scheduled to take place at field headquarters shortly afterward."

"At about the same time or slightly earlier, at approximately 7:00 p.m., Lieutenant Elul, who was then serving as Chief of Bureau of the Divisional Commander, overheard another conversation that took place over the Phalangists' transmitter. According to Lt. Elul's testimony, while he was on the roof of the forward command post, next to the Phalangists' communications set, he heard a Phalangist officer from the force that had entered the camps tell Elie Hobeika (in Arabic) that there were 50 women and children, and what should he do. Elie Hobeika's reply over the radio was: "This is the last time you're going to ask me a question like that, you know exactly what to do;" and then raucous laughter broke out among the Phalangist personnel on the roof. Lieutenant Elul understood that what was involved was the murder of the women and children. According to his testimony, Brigadier General Yaron, who was also on the forward command post roof then, asked him what he had overheard on the radio; and after Lieutenant Elul told him the content of the conversation"

"At 20:40 hours that evening an update briefing was held in the forward command post....remarks made at that meeting were recorded by a Major from the History Section in the Operations Branch/ Training Section"

(from that recording)
[Intelligence Officer:]"The Phalangists went in today. I do not know what level of combat they are showing. It is difficult to see it because it is dark... The impression is that their fighting is not too serious. They have casualties, as you know - two wounded, one in the leg and one in the hand. The casualties were evacuated in one of their ambulances. And they, it turns out, are pondering what to do with the population they are finding inside. On the one hand, it seems, there are no terrorists there, in the camp; Sabra camp is empty. On the other hand, they have amassed women, children and apparently also old people, with whom they don't exactly know what to do (Amos, this refers back to our talk), and evidently they had some sort of decision in principle that they would concentrate them together, and lead them to some place outside the camps. On the other hand, I also heard (from - the Phalangists' liaison officer G.)... that 'do what your heart tells you, because everything comes from God. 'That is, I do not -"

At this point Brigadier General Yaron interrupted the Intelligence Officer and the following dialogue ensued between them:

Brigadier General Yaron: "Nothing, no, no. I went to see him up top and they have no problems at all.

Intelligence Officer: "People remaining in the field? Without their lives being in any danger?

Brigadier General Yaron: "It will not, will not harm them."

"about the Phalangist officer's report concerning 300 terrorists and civilians who had been killed, and about the amendment to that report whereby the number of those killed was only 120." ( this after 3 hours in the camps )

"At approximately 9:00 a.m. on Friday, Brigadier General Yaron met with representatives of the Phalangists at the forward command post and discussed with them the entry of an additional force of Phalangists into the camps"

"As mentioned above, the cable report (appendix exhibit 29) regarding 300 killed reached the office of the director of Military Intelligence on 17.9.82 at 5:30 a.m"

"The Chief of Staff reached the airport at Khalde near Beirut at 15:30 hours...Major General Drori testified that he had told the Chief of Staff on the way what he knew regarding the Phalangists' actions...Brigadier General Yaron joined those travelling to the meeting with the Phalangist commanders"

"At about 16:00 hours, the meeting between the Chief of Staff and the Phalangist staff was held. We have been presented with documents containing summaries from this meeting. In a summary made by Mossad representative A who was present at the meeting (exhibit 80 A) it was said that the Chief of Staff "expressed his positive impression received from the statement by the Phalangist forces and their behavior in the field""

"At the end of the meeting it was clear to Brigadier General Yaron, as he testified, that the Phalangists could still enter the camps, bring in tractors, and do what they wanted - and that they would leave on Saturday morning"

"According to him, he told the Defense Minister that the Phalangists had carried out their assignment, that they had stopped, and that they were under pressure from the Americans and would leave by 5:00 a.m"

"The Phalangists did not leave by 5:00 a.m. on Saturday, 18.9.82"

So, under command of the IDF, Phalangists were sent into refugee camps. IDF supplied them with illumination over both nights, even though as early as two and half hours after they entered an intelligence officer stated "it seems, there are no terrorists there" and civilian deaths were known, the Phalangists did not vacate until 8 am Saturday under American pressure. IDF forces surrounded the camps during the entire 3 days. Despite the highest levels of the government knowing as early as 5:30 am Friday, and several testimonies that they halted the Phalangists, it took American pressure to get the Phalangists out of the camp ( by early Friday, the rumors had made it to at least one journalist ).

The initial official Israeli response? Quoting from Kahan again:
"The meeting concluded with a resolution to issue a communique expressing deep regret and pain at the injuries to a civilian population done by a Lebanese unit which had entered a refugee camp "at a place distant from an I. D.F. position." The resolution added that "immediately after learning about what had happened in the Shatilla camp, the I.D.F. had put a stop to the murder of innocent civilians and had forced the Lebanese unit to leave the camp." It was stressed in the resolution that the accusations regarding I.D.F. responsibility for the human tragedy in the Shatilla camp were in the nature of "a blood libel against the Jewish state and its Government," were groundless, and "the Government rejects them with repugnance." The resolution also stated that had it not been for the intervention of the I.D.F., the number of losses would have been far greater, and that it had been found that the terrorists had violated the evacuation agreement by leaving 2,000 terrorists and vast stocks of weapons in West Beirut. The resolution concludes:

"No one will preach to us moral values or respect for human life, on whose basis we were educated and will continue to educate generations of fighters in Israel."

Emphasis added was mine. Now, that last piece looks like something from one of those websites Crist0 likes to quote.

Am I indicting Israeli society? No, I'm demonstrating no one is without guilt in the crisis in Palestine. Many of those interviewed exhibited real shock and remorse at how this happened. A few were probably just covering themselves, but most seemed really repulsed. But it happened, and still you find revisionists and apologists that want to cover it up and pretend that Israelis never, ever do any wrong. Trying to ignore or gloss over these events only adds to the feeling of injustice of the Palestinians.

King David Hotel: Again, the "we told them we were going to bomb it in advance, it is there fault for not vacating" defense. You note Ben-Gurion severed ties with Irgun and Lehi. Menacham Begin headed Irgun and Yitzhak Shamir headed Lehi ( Stern Gang ) ( both later Prime Ministers for those not up on Israeli politics ). The above quote that Crist0 asked about was from a 1943 article "Terror" by Shamir in the Lehi newsletter.

This is getting long, and I really can't argue some of the others unless I start relying on anit-Israel websites. I'll let the omissions I and Winter have already shown in Crist0's quotes let everyone else decide for themselves.
__________________________________________________ ______________

crist0 wrote:

Quote:
That is from Congressional testimony from James Baker III in 1991

Umm, why the fuck did you quote that. You didn't post a single thing about it and launched into the 2000 Camp David Accords. You're losing it.

Camp David: 95%? for equal land? hahahaha Remember, no one knows exactly what went on behind those doors. Some of it has leaked, we know the basics. But I'll rely on the 11.2% ( actually more than I first posted, I rounded for ease ) that is quoted in the Mitchell Report instead of the stuff you get from palestinefacts.org. Robert Malley, who was a Clinton aide during Camp David, put it at 91% of the West Bank in exchange for 1% ( in terms of the size of the West Bank ) inside pre-67 Israel. But all of this was oral, nothing in writing, no formal proposals. So keep believing whatever propaganda makes you feel best.

What was your point about Israeli settlements again?
It is a fairly simple point. I can see how you missed it. Israel pretends to offer peace with one hand while they increase settlements with the other. Do you deny this? Eventually, Israel can "defend" itself all the way through the Jordan Valley.

From palestinefacts.org
http://palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_transjordan.php
This was the consistent situation until 1946, 24 years later, when Britain completed the action by unilaterally granting Transjordan its independence. Thus the British subverted the purpose of the Palestine Mandate, partitioned Palestine and created an independent Palestine-Arab state with no regard for the rights and needs of the Jewish population.

So, the people you quote are still complaining about not having Jordan, but you expect everyone to believe they will be happy giving up the West Bank and Gaza.

By the way, the frustration of Palestinians over THIS failure of diplomacy is what launched the Al Aqsa intifada.
8 weeks after Camp David or 1 day after 4 unarmed protesters are shot. You are brilliant.

Give me a fucking break. The right of return is nothing more than an attempt to have a massive influx of Palestinians into Israel and turn it from its current state into Palestinian state part 2.

Actually, the Palestinians have moved a bit on this issue as well as the Israelis. The Israelis were prepared to admit they caused much of the exodus of '47 and the Palestinians have offered to limit the numbers returning to Israeli proper at Israeli discretion. This might actually be one of the easier things to resolve if there were people more moderate than Sharon and Arafat in place.

"He forgot to mention that no one served more than 3.5 years. 3.5 years for standing at the village gates and gunning down 49 people as they returned from work for the crime of not knowing there was a curfew in effect."

Like I said... I don't dispute that this was a terrible event. But if you compare the Israeli reaction to it to the reactions of other Arab governments to their citizens murdering Israelis in cold blood with no "mistakes" to question, you'd have to kind of pardon this one a little.

I never claimed the Israelis did nothing wrong at Sabra and Shatila. What I claimed and showed was that it was much more complicated than just saying Israeli massacre of Palestinian refugees. This was carried out by an Arab group, and ordered by an Arab man. The Israelis bear a responsibility in it but this was a vendetta type operation which revenged an incident 6 years earlier where a Palestinian/Syrian ARMY of 16,000 invaded a city and slaughtered thousands of these Arab christians, and directly in retaliation for the murders of Lebanese President Bashir Gemayel and 25 of his followers, killed in a bomb attack earlier that week carried out by Hizbullah. You know if you look at whats going on in these camps these days you have to wonder... just how do you fight against something where they have camps to teach 10 year old kids how to murder and fight.

You have to put some time perspective behind these incidents as well which is why I put the dates behind them. The King David Hotel... at least from what I could gather sorting through several references... there is ample proof that they did warn the British it was coming, and we're talking about 90 people here. There were a lot of atrocities on both sides especially at that time. From what I know, the Irgun were as bad as any Muslim terror group of today.

At the same time there is far less attention given to persecution of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon. http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2367.shtml

In 1985 the Amal militias led a full-scale military attack on various Palestinian refugee camps in Beirut including Sabra, Shatila and Bourj El Barajneh. This attack lasted through 1988, becoming known as the "Camp Wars", which led to mass starvation at the camps of Beirut under military siege by Amal militia. Palestinian refugees at Bourj El Barajeneh and Shatila camp were under siege at one point for a six-month period. Many refugees within the camps still speak about the Amal attacks during the war. One refugee from Bourj El Barajeneh, who asked not to be named, recounted the siege at the camp:

"The children were starving, many people were dying each week and there was little food. We were forced to eat cats and dogs to survive during the siege of the Amal militias".

Hard to find info on these events. Luckily there was a leftist rag which had that article which is pretty good. If someone came in and took away a bunch of Mexico and forced the Mexicans out and into the US, I can promise you that 60 years later they wouldnt be living in garbage in refugee camps and denied the rights to jobs, education and property ownership. And we definitely wouldn't be allowing armed militias into their communities to murder them.

Both sides have been wrong yes. IMO though if you want to look at these "massacres" by the Israelis though, you have to temper it with some realism.

IMO Israeli expansionist policies as I understand them are wrong which is both an understatement and an oversimplification. Someday it's going to take a very carefully orchestrated and private confrontation between a very brave American President and the Israelis where they're forced to agree to assume a completely pacifist stance for a set period of time, halt any expansionist activity, and pull out of certain areas, and they'll have to do it without any guarantees of concessions on the part of the Palestinians. Yeah its fantasy but we can hope. The thing is, I think the Israeli and Palestinian majorities would be receptive toward a number of strong moves toward reconciliation, but its the hardliners on both sides which are forcing the lack of progress.

I would not only keep the walls up..... I would dig a moat too......
and add a mine feild and pill boxs every 100 yards!

Shit, I give up. You guys have Elren on your side.

Fil

Like Winterworg pointed out, the Israelis screw up sometimes but then they fix what they broke. Every time they've had an incident where civilians were attacked they have been targeting the terrorists, while the opposite is true for the other side.


Umm, why the fuck did you quote that. You didn't post a single thing about it and launched into the 2000 Camp David Accords. You're losing it.
To put it into perspective, timewise, because the thing you claim the Israelis had never done(offered a cease to settlements and pulling back) they DID offer at Camp David and Arafat just walked out.


The Commission determined that the massacre at Sabra and Shatilla was carried out by a Phalangist unit, acting on its own but its entry was known to Israel. No Israeli was directly responsible for the events which occurred in the camps. But the Commission asserted that Israel had indirect responsibility for the massacre since the I.D.F. held the area....

The Commission recommended that the Defense Minister resign, that the Director of Military Intelligence not continue in his post and other senior officers be removed.
Leave something out when you referred to the Kahan Commission?

Like the findings?


So, the people you quote are still complaining about not having Jordan, but you expect everyone to believe they will be happy giving up the West Bank and Gaza.
I think it is perfectly fair for them to point out how Jordan was initially supposed to be part of the state and how it was excluded.

That one act by the British is a large part of where the problem started, where they went from having a nation where Jews could "take part and pride" in a nation they shared with Arabs to splitting the area into two distinct states..one Jewish and one Arab in nature.

I don't expect anyone to believe they will be happy at all giving up the West Bank and Gaza, that is why the offering of those two spots in negotiations is such a big deal and should leave you wondering why Arafat didn't even bother with a counterproposal after such a large concession but just walked out.


This is getting long, and I really can't argue some of the others unless I start relying on anit-Israel websites.

So in all of the other incidents you listed either the Israeli side is right or the terrorist side is.

Hard choice there.

Elren is Halo. Everyone has to have one of that kind on their side.

You know, the more I've looked into it the more I realize the deep bias that exists in the UN and is supported by Western Europe. Care to get back on that topic? As Ivan Drago said.. "Zyou weel lose."

I say we build a wall around the whole of Israel, kick them out of Uefa (why on earth are they even in it?) and any other International organisation. Let's close our markets to them, sideline them, kick them out. They are worse than the South Africans ever were.

Bagels? No thanks!!

JOIN THE BOYCOTT

'Elren is Halo. Everyone has to have one of that kind on their side.'

- I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you. Take Crist0's cock out of your mouth, and repeat.

Thanks kiddo.

When I was 8 years old I made homosexual jokes at people to put them down too, but I grew out of it. Halo this could happen for you too... good luck in life.

I'm sorry, I said take his cock out of your mouth.

Otherwise I'm just not understanding you mate.

Interesting fantasies you have. Freud would get a kick out of it.

I'm thinking Pavlov might too.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,126034,00.html


the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a group affiliated with the ruling Fatah party, has banned the chief U.N. Mideast envoy from entering Palestinian territories or meeting Palestinian officials.
The group's order followed a similar ban by the authority and represented an escalation in Palestinian anger over envoy Terje Roed-Larsen's public criticisms of Arafat.

The order could be considered a warning that the Norwegian diplomat could be attacked if he defied the ban.

A group spokesman said on condition of anonymity that Arafat aides asked the militants to release the statement against Roed-Larsen


Roed-Larsen has long been considered close to Arafat and sympathetic to the Palestinian cause.

But earlier this week, Roed-Larsen told a U.N. Security Council briefing that the Palestinian leader was blocking vital reforms within the Palestinian Authority and hindering peace moves.

file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Mike%20Barnes/Desktop/The%20Wall%201.jpg

I got this picture on 6/14/04 from my best friend who does "work" for the State Dept. in Isreal. As you can see(kinda small I know) the Pali's hate everyone. So they blow up innocent people everywhere. Nice. They deserve what they get.

I just have one question for some of the people having this argument, and when I ask this I ask it in the most non biased way possible....


Have those of you arguing here actually BEEN to some of the places that you seem to know so much about? You'd be amazed at the fact that CNN and the BBC isn't the end all, be all when it comes to world affairs.

Oh you're right... I'll not comment anymore until I've actually visited Sierra Leone... cuz I had been thinking that the BBC had taught me all I needed to know in the world. Thanks for your deep insight.

Actually, yes! Now you've got the idea Winterworg!

I've BEEN to the Middle East. The arguments being presented here in this forum cannot be stated in such a black and white manner. There is no "right" side. Both sides have a right to exist peacefully without fear of attack and both sides have committed atrocities. One is no better than the other. It takes two sides to make a conflict.

Winterworg, I suggest that you:

a) Get your head out of your ass;
b) Move out of your parents house;
c) Head to the local recruiting office or the office of another organization that will allow you to travel (IE: Peace Corp if you don't want to do military time)
d) Join up and travel abroad. SEE the world before you so haphazardly condemn it.

I'm serious, you'll find that things aren't as cut and dry as the news networks like to make them seem. See with your own eyes for once.

Or.....

You can sit here and rant like a schoolboy.

I'm not saying you shouldn't have a voice. What I'm saying is that you should educate yourself to the best of your ability before using it. CNN, BBC, CBC or even Al Jezera are all news networks. They sell news, that's their business. Negative news is big news, it draws ratings. Ratings keep these places going. They will not show the fact that most arabs or jews are just regular joes like you and I, who want nothing more than to just get up in the morning, kiss our kids good bye, go to work, make a living, come home to our families and just live a regular life. That doesn't sell very well because it's boring.

The news is the facts abreviated, with all the boring stuff taken out and all the stuff that keeps people interested in.

If I was to believe everything the news said, then I would never go to the USA. All we see here in Canada is "A 5 year old child has been shot dead..." and "Drug crime on the rise!", just to name a few. I KNOW it's not like that all the time south of the border, to think so would be stupid. But that's what the news sells. It's like seeing a train wreck, you just can't stop watching.

All media peoples are evil, the more people realize this the better we will all be! And yes I am serious :p

I've BEEN to the Middle East.

Where exactly, how long, and how long ago?

How old were you when you were there?

Been jumping around boards tonight quite a bit for first time in quite awhile and have noticed one thing! Christ0 belongs in the nag area ;) As for this topic in an entirety it would take to long to properly disseminate all pertinent information involving all parties. And even though I haven't read most this post I have been to Israel back in 97' and was involved in the Iraqi war from 2 months before we kicked it off till 2 weeks after the end of major combat was declared so yes I have spent some time in the middle east and talked to several of the people who live the drama there on all sides.

What exactly led you to your conclusion?

General disagreement with my posts without proof to the contrary?

That'd be something exciting and new!

Great Binuven... I'm so proud of you. Now since you've "been to the middle-east" and therefore are an authority on the subject... feel free to join the debate and educate us all. All you're saying here is that you've been to the middle east somewhere for an unknown period of time and that because of that you know more than anyone who hasn't been, and that you're too stupid to come up with anything more than personal attacks fantasizing about the life of someone you know nothing about.

I would suggest that you...
a) go ahead and try to join the debate factually
b) stop fantasizing about my life
c) educate yourself
d) pull your head out of your ass
e) quit stroking your "light saber"

The only thing you've said that makes any sense is that the issue is more black and white than it's argued here. The thing is everyone else knows that that always happens in a debate except you, the moron that has to jump in and say it as if he's making some dramatic revelation of higher intelligence. So you can take your 83 IQ and run back off and play with your coloring books. You're bringing nothing to the table.

So kiddo... go out and educate yourself and have an adult proofread stuff for you from now on. If you want to have a debate on issues I'll be glad to school you, but my guess is you'll just keep blithering and find some reason why you don't have to actually get into the debate beyond arguing for your own superiority.

Ok Winterworg, where do I begin...

"Great Binuven... I'm so proud of you."

Thank you! I like having my military service appreciated.

"Now since you've "been to the middle-east" and therefore are an authority on the subject... feel free to join the debate and educate us all."

I plan too, which is more than I can say for you.

"All you're saying here is that you've been to the middle east somewhere for an unknown period of time and that because of that you know more than anyone who hasn't been, and that you're too stupid to come up with anything more than personal attacks fantasizing about the life of someone you know nothing about."

Wow! Did you come up with that all by yourself? Hmmm, me thinks someone is getting help here. Is this guy related to Yuego? (sp)

"I would suggest that you...
a) go ahead and try to join the debate factually
b) stop fantasizing about my life
c) educate yourself
d) pull your head out of your ass
e) quit stroking your "light saber" "

Hmmm, ok let me answer this in the way that it was asked...

a) Only just starting bub.

b) If only I could be like you! I just LOVE sitting around in my underwear fantasizing about what a real woman feels like. Sorry, I'll just have to settle on my booming business, my beautiful wife, my wonderful son and my great friends. Really, you don't know how lucky you are!!

c) And how! I've been educating my self for the last 12 years (not including K - 12 of course). I'm guessing that you have a Doctorate or something?

d) You give my flexibility WAY too much credit. If I could put my head up my ass, then I'd be on the road. Imagine all the money I could make! I could be just like YOU! :D

e) Man, if I could stroke my lightsaber I'd be SO HAPPY! I been trying to unlock my Force Sensitive slot for 6 months now! Jedi accounts are going for about $1400+ US! Think of the money I could make! Can you help me oh great master?

"The only thing you've said that makes any sense is that the issue is more black and white than it's argued here."

We're in agreement, YAY for us!

"The thing is everyone else knows that that always happens in a debate except you, the moron that has to jump in and say it as if he's making some dramatic revelation of higher intelligence. "

Wow, you speak for everyone on this board? Scary thought....

"So you can take your 83 IQ and run back off and play with your coloring books. You're bringing nothing to the table."

Hmmm, 83 IQ, you're giving this Army Sgt too much credit, you might make someone want to commission me......but then my IQ might go down. /shrug

I guess my real life experience VS. your experience reading what people post here is just no comparison.

"So kiddo... go out and educate yourself and have an adult proofread stuff for you from now on. If you want to have a debate on issues I'll be glad to school you, but my guess is you'll just keep blithering and find some reason why you don't have to actually get into the debate beyond arguing for your own superiority."

Ok, so how old are you again? I'm suspecting....15?....17 tops? Really, if your older than 28 then I'm guessing that you are in fact my elder, by all means call me kiddo. Otherwise, go fuck yerself with a steel wire brush and have a ham sandwich....and I mean that in the nicest way!

Now, you want me to educate myself where clearly earlier in this post you asked me to educate you all (because you speak for the Ayo Ro community right?), so I'm guessing you recognize my superior intellect? /shrug I dunno, you got me confused, I'm just going by what you've said.

Then again, you did offer to school me. In just a couple of short paragraphs you've gone from student to teacher. Your mother must be very proud! Maybe next you can feed yourself your strained vegetables without making a mess!

As far as arguing about my own superiority, ummm, I wasn't really arguing LOL. But since you've started it, I'll gladly finish it. I don't need to demonstrate my superior intellect to you, your assinine post gives the entire community here a rough idea of how many times you were dropped on your head as a child.

Now, for those wondering:

I am still serving (almost 11 years now) in the Canadian Army. It was exactly one year ago I left Afghanistan. I have travelled all over the gulf and have seen many wonderful and horrible things. I have experienced atrocities on both sides of the fence, but I've seen the humanity on both sides as well. This is why I am reluctant to berate one side or the other, both have done nasty things.

My post wasn't to take a side (sorry to disappoint you Winterworg.....just who the hell are you anyway? I think this is the first time I've actually seen your name in the two+ years I've been posting here), but to try and get people thinking.

All too often we take the information we recieve from other sources for granted. I see people standing up for both sides (fair enough, freedom of speech and all that other good stuff, it's what people like the military fight for), and that's fine, but what I also see is that people try to dehumanize the other side. You're talking about people folks. Until you've seen what happens in an attack, until you've held body parts belonging to small children because a bomb went off, you will never truly appreciate the value of human life and how lucky you are to be alive.

Anyhow "kiddo", when you get off your ass and put on a uniform and do your part, come talk to me. I served in Afghanistan (and other areas, feel free to check out www.dnd.ca (http://www.dnd.ca/) you will see infact we do have an operation on the Border of Israel and Syria). I can honestly say I did my part, I deserve the right to be able to say whatever I want on the subject. I've been there, done that, even have a T Shirt or two. I met the people, I went to the places, and I saw the good and bad that's going on.

Now what I want YOU to do my friend (and I use that term loosely) is lay who and what you are on the table that makes you such an expert. Come on now, don't be shy. Obviously you must be some sort of Spec Ops spook who slinks in the night, taking out Iraqi militants at night only to be home, in his underoo's, eating Cherios and posting on the Ayo Ro boards by morning. Or are you, like I asked earlier, a PhD, being well read and educated, ready to "school" me? Or are you what I suspect you are, a sad little boy (little is reference your age, who knows you could be a fat ass :D ) who's decided to get involved in a conversation he just doesn't understand and probably doesn't want to understand.

Really, your vehemence intrigues me, I want to know more!

I'm just a 34 year old BS in biology with 3 years in medical school. I never claimed to have any special knowledge and I do appreciate that you served in the middle east. I do also think that the service that you did probably gives you some good insight into the situation there. However in your original, vague and simplistic posts all you said was you had been in the middle east and that anyone who hasnt is just getting everything they know from the BBC and CNN. What you said was stupid Binuven. Your next post made several assumptions about me which were all assinine.

You put a lot of time and thought into this latest response and that's great. Based on the info you provided I'll be happy to listen to anything you have to say about the political situation in the middle east. However I won't pay attention to how stupid you make yourself look when you try to say that anyone who hasn't been there doesnt understand whats going on. Its absurd. So lets see what you have to say since you went to such great lengths to convince everyone that you know more than us.

Wait a minute Binuven, you said you'd been to Afghanistan and the middle east but have you in fact been to Israel?

It is quite different from the Muslim nations..you know that right?

'They are selling out to terrorists for a better position with Arab oil.'

- Crist0, Mel Gibson phoned, he wants his tin-foil hat back.
I thought liberals were the conspirators?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,126288,00.html


The 191-member world body voted after lengthy negotiations between the Arab League and the European Union which resulted in a revised text that was accepted by both groups

What was that!

It was almost like the EU validated my point for me again!

The 191-member world body voted after lengthy negotiations between the Arab League and the European Union. The talks resulted in a revised text accepted by both groups. The new text added language reaffirming Israel's right to self-defense and called on the Palestinians to arrest would-be attackers and on Israel to stop attacking Palestinian civilians.

I have a longer reply coming, but had to touch on this. See, when two groups have differing views, they compromise. That's what the "revised text" means. Want to guess which group put in the stuff about Israel's right to self-defense and asking Palestinians to make arrests?

The first draft of the resolution would have had the General Assembly accept the court's opinion, but at EU insistence it was changed to simply acknowledge its decision.

You are too easy, you own yourself.

Fil

So you have the EU and the Arabs agreeing on the fate of Israel. Given the antagonistic nature of both to the existence of Israel, you think this is cool?

The resolution was a better compromise than the Israelis probably expected from the UN, but still went against them, and only contained a mention of condemnation against recent suicide bombings... and one of them only because it killed 3 Americans. The EU also accepted the Arab Peace Initiative in 2002 which calls for Israel to withdraw from all territories occupied since 1967, and in exchange they will stop killing Jews. No recognition of Arab aggression which resulted in the occupation.

"At the US mission to the UN, Ambassador John Danforth was the only envoy this week to join Israel's representative in voicing his opposition to the resolution. "It's not helpful that it's one-sided," Danforth told reporters on Wednesday. "It's yet another resolution to be brought before the General Assembly. There were 22 such resolutions last year. They don't do any good," he said.

Danforth also questioned the Palestinians' motive in pressing for a resolution following a Security Council briefing by UN special Middle East envoy Terje Roed Larsen during which he criticized the Palestinians' failure to reform their security services and a resulting PA declaration effectively banning Larsen from the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

"The issue to me is, how do we go forward on any kind of peace process? The peace process, to me, means balance. It means that neither side is going to like everything that it hears or every suggestion that's made," Danforth said. "So is it going to be a balanced approach, or is it simply going to be a rerun of the past, which is that we all make our political statements almost in propaganda fashion?"

Gillerman predicted that Friday's debate will be foster another resolution "that will be added to a sad and hypocritical list of anti-Israel resolutions; it does not carry with it real significance."

The Palestinians and the Arab countries have a long tradition of mustering anti-Israel support in the General Assembly, which has in the past approved hundreds of anti-Israel resolutions."

The UN's special envoy to the middle east who has been highly critical of Israel in every respect, made one statement against Arafat and the PA and was subsequently banned from the region and has had his life threatened. So how can they ask Israel to accept UN resolutions when they can't even accept a little criticism without throwing a fit. By the way he only said those things in order to try to look more moderate because he wants to be elected Secretary General when Annan retires.

See, when two groups have differing views, they compromise.

I'm sorry..why exactly was the EU of all groups working with the Arab League on a resolution condemning Israel in the first place?

Hard to get a non biased ICJ court when only 6 countries around the world think building a wall inside another country isn't maybe the best thing to do.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3911785.stm

Why don't they build it in their borders? That's all what is asked them.

Because they want whatever strategic advantage they can get against the millions of people surrounding them and around the world who are sworn to wipe them off the face of the earth. The Palestinian National Covenant doesnt even recognize Israel's right to exist. Every time Arafat wants to get some support again they announce that they're changing the PNC to recognize Israel and to remove the stuff about wiping Israel off the face of the earth, but they don't do it. Actually they don't even recognize the Jews as a people so who are they arguing with? It's been widely reported several times that the PNC was amended, but it still hasn't been. The UN can't even get the Palestinians to do this simple thing but they can go through all of this hooplah against Israel? Interesting.

Aye, Palestine will wipe them off the face of the Earth.
Not vice versa.

*puts his head in his lap and cries*

It's like Opinion For Infant School whenever you open your mouth.
Seen the death tolls lately?

Your opinions aside... you are quite possibly the most ignorant person on the planet. Yay yay... lets continue the Halochanter insult parade its so cool. You have a great technique... say as little as possible, then insult people. The thing is Halo, Israel's schools arent teaching their kids how to murder Palestinians and how the Palestinians have no right to exist. Its the other way around. Your only defense against all of the blatant facts you continue to ignore is that Israel is winning the body count battle. The Palestinians and the Arabs don't really want any end to this conflict unless it is the destruction of Israel and they continue to prove that and teach that. They've gotten great at manipulating your media and getting control of softbrained dolts like you though. Keep it up though you're sad but somehow entertaining.

'The thing is Halo, Israel's schools arent teaching their kids how to murder Palestinians and how the Palestinians have no right to exist'

- They don't need to. They have an army sufficient enough to do those things.

And now for some fun.

'You have a great technique... say as little as possible, then insult people...'

'...softbrained dolts like you'

- I just can't help but look up to you.

You have no content to any of your posts except to insult. While I return your insults at least I explain things and try to use references where possible. You're the main reason this forum often turns into an insult festival. It's all you know.

'You're the main reason this forum often turns into an insult festival. It's all you know.'

- You're welcome.
Entertaining the masses for 3 years.
And every retarded conservative like you and Crist0 that pops by every so often. You don't stay long, but another kind replaces you a few months later, and I continue dancing with them.

I must say, I much preffered Wayfarer. He at least retorted with typo corrections. You, on the other hand, mumble from Crist0's anal passage about me being mean.

It's like, no fun man.

Yet still with all of that at some point you have to realize that all you're doing is pouting because you're wrong and instead of admitting it you prefer to just call people names and throw your temper tantrums.

By the way you're right I come and go from the forum. I have a little something that people call a life. Ask some people around you they might be able to tell you what that's like. Some of my rotations allow me some time between patients which I can fill with chat groups and playing "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" online. I'll be gone again in a month and you can toddle about ignorantly some more imagining that you're not a moron but proving it day by day.

He is right you know Halo, there is no need for all the insults. It just turns this forum into an RL NAG, not a decent political discussion. Now granted you're not the only one guilty; we could all use some change in the way we present our ideas both here and elsewhere.

P.S. *Sigh* Please go easy on me when you or someone else flames me.

*hands you a tissue*

Flames and political discussions go nicely hand in hand.

So stop fucking whinning, or just don't come here.

*Wears the tissue down into a snotty, slobbery mass*

Fine, RL NAG it is. Fine with me. I'll stop "whinning" (yeah I know, a cruel typo correction.. but I don't want to hear any whining because of it, you hear?).

And no I will not leave, because thats exactly what you want to do.. scare your opponents off. It makes you feel all big and bad. Now just because we have differing political views and opinions doesn't mean we have to make it personal! There is never a real point in 'burning bridges'.

Where's the love people? :confused:

Ok now I'm off to church. Behave!

Whining lol. Just making a point... you have none.

I've been holding off on replying to this thread, as I believe I've already argued this to death with Halo on the old boards. Whether Halo just really hates Israelis, or just takes every opportunity to sound as ignorant as possible is hard to discern, but honestly it’s like trying to teach a mentally retarded puppy not to shit on your floor. After your fiftieth attempt at training it, you just have to shake your head in sad disbelief and accept it. We’ll ignore the fact that though he could walk through Israel unharmed and unharrased, he would be hamburger meat after a five minute walk in the west bank. So why does Halo love a people who would gladly slit his throat, dance around his body, and then argue and push to be the first to bathe their hands in his blood? I don’t know, lets ask Halo. Hope that last gurgling objection of “I’m a Euro—“ would make him feel a better before the mob descended on him.



In any case, I believe that the initial point of this thread was to discuss the Israeli wall that has resulted in a 90% decrease in suicide bombings. The Palestinians say it blocks them from schools, hospitals, their jobs, and guess what—THEIR VICTIMS. How ironic. But guess what boys and girls, these “hospitals” and “jobs”, are furnished by ISRAELIS. Why don’t the Palistinians have their own? Well, for one, these types of services require responsible government. You know, police stations, city halls, tax departments etc. Building these requires money that Arafat would much rather spend on his Swiss bank account and terrorist organizations. The Palistinian Authority has been given millions of dollars in funds from charity groups and foreign Arab governments. Do you honestly think that this money is being spent on it’s people or infrastructure? For God’s sake his OWN recently appointed government, with his puppet prime minister who doesn’t even have the authority to go pee on his own, is dueling it out with Arafat, accusing him of massive corruption. No shit Sherlock, that’s a real epiphany. If they aren’t too busy trying to kill Israelis, they’re killing each other. Way to pull yourself out of the ever deepening morass of dung your people are sinking into..



Here’s a good analogy. The Amerindians, no longer content living on their reserves, decide they want their land back. They start launching suicide bombings against nearby US towns, leveling a few McDonald’s and a shopping mall. The US is loath to go in and raze the reserves, both due to sympathetic opinion of the UN, and the fact that some of the Amerindians are happy to live on the reserves. The bombings continue, so the US builds a wall around the reserves to protect themselves from suicide attacks. The Indians now complain that they can’t get to their AMERICAN hospitals and schools, and the UN says it’s unfair to block them from these services, and that it’s a “land-grab”, because the wall happens to sit/cross over the reserves (Indian land). What’s the difference between the Israeli situation, and the hypothetical one above? Well, the Amerindians actually have historical proof that the land used to belong to them. That’s correct, they have more rights to the land then the Palestinians do. Can anybody please point me out a single historical reference to the existence of these “Palestinians”, and furthermore, when they ever occupied the land of the West Bank or Gaza? Shall we also ignore the fact that these two previously mentioned territories were seized after a dastardly attack on Israel? Two countries simultaneously launch a vicious attack on Israel, they beat them back with innocent human lives, and Israel is not entitled to any reparations, land or money?? Better yet, let’s look at the time BEFORE Israel held these territories. Where were the cries of the Palistinians then? They didn’t exist, or were quashed under the boot of other Arab nations. These “other” nations didn’t give a rats ass about the plight of the palistinians; they were considered the Gypsies of the Arab world, spit upon by their supposed brethren. It was only after two unsuccessful wars launched by the likes of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria, that the Arab world realized that even if they would simultaneously attack Israel on the most religious Jewish holiday of the year, they would still get their ass handed to them. Giving up on conventional war, they switched their method to a political one. Hence the birth of the “Palestinian plight”, and the sudden support of all Arab nations for their poor lost brothers. It was probably a good thing too, because if there is anything the Israeli's really suck wind at, it's Public Relations.



Someone asked if anybody had ever been to any of these nations. I spent two summer months in the year 2000 on a Kibbutz in Israel (kind of like a community farm), where I picked fruit pretty much all day. Ever been to a farm that needed armed guards and nightwatchmen? Anyways, Israel is a modern and productive nation. Shopping malls, women not covered head to toe that grow up to be doctors, hospitals, arcades, movie theatres, porno mags on the back shelf of a magazine store, video game shops. Except for the minority of Orthodox Jews in their black coats and hats, it could honestly be small town America. Now don’t get me wrong, Israeli’s are definitely not a warm and ******dly friendly people. Defensive, loud, and anxious would be the best way to describe them. But I guess when you grow up in a country surrounded by enemies, with bombs going off at sidewalk cafes, you might develop these traits. Spending two years of your life drafted into a pretty hardcore army doesn’t help either. Anyways, after spending some time on the Kibbutz, I took a little tour of Israel, visiting the orange groves grown on land that had been terraformed from arid desert years previously. I visited the Intel processor facility in Jerusalem, where the Pentium IV was developed. I visited the techno-parc near Haifa, filled with biomedical research companies. Despite it’s size, Israel develops and contributes a lot to the world economy, and has managed to contribute more medicines and technology to the world than the ENTIRE ARAB WORLD COMBINED. That’s right, tiny little Israel with a tiny little population manages to outdo the entire Arab world possessing a hundred times (if not more) it’s land mass and population.



On the tail end of my trip, I decided to visit the west bank. The Israeli checkpoint wouldn’t let me through, but I did get to see all the Palistinian children on the other side hurling rocks at the soldiers, and generally doing anything possible to antagonize them. I guess parents in “Palestine” aren’t too interested in sending them to after school Arts&Crafts or swimming following a hard day of studying the Koran and maybe their five minutes of math. After all, the family will be so better rewarded when their kid is accidentally shot or caught in the line of fire when the “militants” use them as a human shield. Anyways, unhappy that I would not get to tour the west bank, I got back in the bus that would take me back to my hotel, when an old bundled Arab woman approached the bus. She was on the Israeli side of the checkpoint, so she must have been on her way to the ISRAELI hospital or job she needed. Whipping out a nice curved knife, she slit her palm open and started smearing the blood all over the bus windows, whilst simultaneously babbling and shouting stuff in Arabic and making a “slit-throat” gesture with her other hand. An Israeli soldier approached and grabbed her knife wielding arm. She tried to resist and fell to the ground. Someone then took an opportunity to take a picture, which ironically featured “an old lady, half prone, hands covered in blood, staring fearfully at an Israeli soldier armed with an M-16”. I’m sure that it was published in this exact same context for people like Halo to swallow up, hook, line, and sinker.



Now let’s just assume that the West Bank and Gaza were given to the Palestinians. Does anybody in their right mind actually believe that peace will be achieved? The militants don’t recognize Israel, and have said time and time again that the terror will not stop. Arafat does not care about stopping it either, because he endorses it. The lip service he gives on the TV and press makes me want to barf. Am I so old at thirty years of age that other people don’t remember watching TV in the 80’s, and hearing his name and terrorism always joined in the same sentence?!



In the end, it matters not. Israeli’s know what’s right, and they know what it takes to protect their land. Israelis are tough as nails, and have balls bigger than most nation a hundred time their size. They’ll make the whole stinking middle-east glow in the dark for the next ten thousand years before their fanatical and suicidal enemies ever set foot on their soil.

My post here isn't adding anything useful to the thread but.. AMEN!

Pretty good post :)

Yes, yes. I'm the ignorant twat. Yes, yes. I never use facts. Yes, yes, I hate Jews, blah blah blah. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

And I wanted a good game of "Victoria" and a beer before bed. Oh well, guess I'll try and keep this as short as possible (see: long).

You're just doing what Akipt does. You're judging a situation from a Western arm-chair.
Let me make it a little more pro-Palestinian, as you're want to utterly ignore any view from their point.

Limey Brits take Palestine from Ottoman Empire. British promise land to Palestinians, while mutually agreeing settlement for European Jews.
Palestine sees tremendous influx of European Jews growing by thousands every month throughout early 1920's. Palestinians - existing peacefully with Jews, begin to grow anxious at mass-jewish-settelment. Palestinians press British. British cap Jewish migration, but Jews ignore population cap and continue to migrate. Jewish population of Palestine doubles over the next 15 years. Second World War and Jewish extermination leads to a Jewish population increase to Palestine of 1 million+. Immigration out of control. Limey Brits find themselves in a pickle after ensuring Palestinians that they will curb Jewish settlement while guaranteeing Jews an independent home-land. Arabs and Jews clash. Jews wish for Brits to pull out and give up their mandate over Palestine, so they can have an independent state. Jewish snipers aim for both Palestinians and British Tommys. Palestinians join in, poor Limey Brits run for the port and begin evacuating. Jews use terror-tactics to harass Brits. Crumbling British Empire puts their hands up and and gives mandate over Palestine to League of Nations, in the promise that Palestinian autonomy and interests will be respected. League of Nations present plans and borders that are rejected by a majority. Same plans and borders presented again - incredibly bias toward Jewish settlers, but narrowly scrapes through. Arab nations walk out furious and reject Jewish claims. Israel created, Palestinian land almost a third less than previously expected. More Arab-Jewish clashes. String of Palestinian massacres. Friction between Israel and Arab neighbours. Neighbours invade. Palestinians squashed between war. Israel defeats Jordan, Syria and Egypt in the Six Day War, that lasted - guess what - six days. Jews occupy remaining Palestinian land.

So, I have a somewhat sympathetic, understanding approach toward the Palestinians. Promised land by a Great Power, kicked out of most of it by a people from another continent, beaten up a bit, beaten up some more, massacred a bit, squashed between a war, then occupied.
Yah, I can see the frustration there.

Arafat and his scum-bags are cronies that choose the violent route over the diplomatic route. It's wrong.
But that doesn't give Israel a passport to do the Palestinian people such wrong as to kill thousands, and now blockade them off with a wall.

I hardly believe you would jump for joy if we built one around Northern Ireland.

Palestinian kids throwing rocks? Why wouldn't they? Their parents and grandparents will have no memories but the Israeli gun. Invasion, occupation, over, what, 2500 dead since 1998? Just because they are in a circle of hate (and who, on earth, can fucking blame them?) it doesn't give any country a right to bring harm on them ten-fold.

I love the fact that there's an independent Jewish state. I love that it's in such a historical place. And I'm bloody well chuffed (as well as impressed) that the Jewish people - after such a time in Euope - could emerge so victorious and stable in a war that seemed hopeless, and a region that's so harsh right now.
But that doesn't mean I won't condone such action as 10 Palestinians dead for every 1 Jew, or a wall that not only cuts people off from schools or hospitals, but also encloses them in, both economically and physically.

I guess it's hard to express my view to Yanks. And I don't mean this discriminatively. But a nation that thinks the death penalty is a good thing - killing people for killing people - is hardly going to grasp what I mean.

Anyway, continue to believe I hate Jews, or am too ignorant to know the facts. But I see a shitty conflict, and digging deep, you find out why all the hate. And I can understand both sides, but agree with neither.
All I know is that 2600 dead Palestinians is a bad mother fucking deal.

I know you won't care what I think as usual, but thanks for an intelligent post Halo.

I think the casualty numbers are bogus though. If you're talking in this Al Aqsa Intifada, or Oslo War, I think I read it was 3000 Palestinians to 1000 Israelis approximately, but of course it depends on what source you want to use.
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/critiques/Skewing_the_Death_Tolls.asp

Again, its media bias.

And I still can't see whats wrong with capital punishment properly implemented. Which isn't being done in the US imo.

Thanks for the article Winter.

It's probably impossible for Israel to gain a decent peace with the Palestinians, as they're not dealing with a stable political entity. It would be hard for all of Palestine to agree on anything that they all want besides Israel being gone altogether. I'm sure that there are even some Palestinian combatants that just want to thrive in the conflict itself and all the attention it brings. I mean for goodness sake.. Israel is even pulling out of the Gaza strip altogether.

In all those pictures you see of various crowds and people burning American flags, etc.. half of them probably don't know what they're there for. They just thrive in the crowd/mob mentality and the illusion of camaraderie.

The "HonestReporting" website I have never checked out before, but it looks like they tend to lean toward Israel so I'm not 100 percent convinced of what I see there. However, in general the article and a lot of the articles I read there had a common theme with what I believe about most media reporting in relation to the Israel/Palestine conflict... its so complicated to explain the situation they settle on the easiest thing to print. If Palestinian casualties are all seemingly innocent bystanders and Israel is firing randomly into crowds of innocent protesters. It's not the truth, its just easier than explaining the real situation. No I'm not denying there are innocent casualties, but I don't believe Israel is intentionally killing innocent civilians, especially when it causes them so much international trouble.

Arafat himself encourages children to martyr themselves and says how proud they all are of them when they do so. They have state functions honoring Palestinian "martyrs" who have murdered Jews. They have camps teaching children how to martyr themselves. Militants often intentionally fire from crowded areas because the Israelis usually don't return fire if there are noncombatants in the way.

I don't watch television much and actually I don't even have cable, but when I used to watch Fox News once in awhile the one thing I think they were absolutely completely "fair and balanced" about was their reporting of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Their reports would commonly contain a further explanation and their headlines were very neutral. On top of that whenever they make a mistake they go out of their way to correct it. Of course they also have the two worst shows on television in Hannity and Colmes, and the Greta Van Susteren show.

'but I don't believe Israel is intentionally killing innocent civilians, especially when it causes them so much international trouble.'

- That may well be so.

But when you fire rockets in to a crowd from a hellicopter gunship, you're going to hit women and children, and it happens far, far too often.

Would you argue that the Palestinians do not intentionally and knowingly murder civilian Jews as a matter of public policy, encouraged by their leaders?

Do you think reporting on Israel in the UK especially is unbiased?
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Documenting_BBC_Documentaries.asp

Would you argue that the Palestinians don't encourage their children to die and kill?
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38826
http://www.theage.com.au/cgi-bin/common/popupPrintArticle.pl?path=/articles/2003/08/22/1061529332230.html

Palestinians certainly do, yep.
And you've ignored pretty much everything I've said.

Congrats. You're about as progressive as Arafat.

Huh? lol

No I read what you said just fine. You blame Israel for the Palestinian government and parents teaching their children to murder Jews. That's fine... what I'm pointing out is that if you keep following your own reasoning, who's really to blame for the dead civilians but the militants hiding among them, bringing fire on them, and the government that encourages CHILDREN to go out and kill them and throw rocks at them.

(Insert insult here)

'You blame Israel for the Palestinian government and parents teaching their children to murder Jews.'

- I did?
I said I understood the hate, not that I blame the Israeli's for either Arafat or the suicide bombers. I merely understand the reasoning. Or can be sympathetic toward it.

'who's really to blame for the dead civilians but the militants hiding among them, bringing fire on them, and the government that encourages CHILDREN to go out and kill them and throw rocks at them.'

- OH NOZ THROWING STONZE0R!!11
I think the idiot shootig the rockets in to crowds is pretty much to blame there.

You can be sympathetic towards targeting people with bombings while they are out shopping, riding a bus to work, or even getting married..but damn those soldiers for responding when they are being attacked.

At least you are finally admitting it.

Give Halo a break. It's hard to recognize the difference between "Innocent civilians" and "People who just don't hold guns so they don't look like the badguys for European newspapers even though they're standing in front of armed individuals 'protecting' them from fire."

I merely understand the reasoning. Or can be sympathetic toward it.

Y'know what tickles me pink? Jedd used to say the same shit about the terrorist attacks on 9/11. Must be that English charm that keeps half the forum from calling Halo an idiot/fuckwit everytime he posts...oh wait!

'Must be that English charm that keeps half the forum from calling Halo an idiot/fuckwit everytime he posts'

- Pip Pip! Cheerio! Fancy a cuppa?! Bob bob!

'but damn those soldiers for responding when they are being attacked.'

- ....by unarmed civilians. Damn them all to hell!

Pip pip, cheerio!

Ah yes, the unarmed civilians with rifles?


Bob bob!

Which would explain why the other half of the board likes him.

I'm here all week folks.

You know damn well they're not firing at civilians, they're firing in response to being attacked and the civilians are unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time. The Israeli government isnt sending their soldiers out and teaching them how to kill Palestinians dipshit, the Palestinians are teaching their people how to kill innocent Israelis. If the Palestinians dont give a fuck about their own people enough to not attack from a crowded area, blame them not the Israelis.


I give up on this one though... you're too thoroughly indoctrinated. It's a Kuhnian revolution and you're left back in the past.

Kuhnian revolution? That is quite possibly one of the most high brow insults I've ever seen flung around here. I mean...if I was the one being insulted I'd imply that you were using your word-a-day calendar against me. 8/

It's a fairly common term. So I guess how high browed it is depends on your frame of reference.

I suppose. I do live in a community where cow tipping is a good way to pass the time. I've just never heard the term used as an insult. Wonder how it works as smack talk...I'll have to try that one out next time I'm playing Call of Duty. 8/

Not something I'd recommend Zehn :P

'Ah yes, the unarmed civilians with rifles?'

- You mean rock shaped rifles?
"Argghh.. he's got a rock, fire the rocket launcher!"

Okay how about this one... you two are a couple of fucking morons. Am I talking down far enough for you yet?

Halo,

Concerning your response to my last post, I have a few comments:

First off. Whatever may have been *promised* to the so called Palistinians, by the Brits, UN or whomever, is pretty much irrelevant. It wasn't their land before the Brits seized control of the area, it wasn't their land 5000 years ago, and it isn't their land now. Whether you refer to historical documents, the Koran, the Bible, or the Torah, the word "Palestinian" doesn't exist, and there is certainly no reference to these "Palistinians" ever living there. Do I believe that these people nevertheless have a culture and people that is deserving of their own territory? Perhaps, though I would probably be more inclined if they proved they are capable of some sort of responsible government, rather than corruption, infighting, and exploitation of their own people. In any case, basing their right to live their on something the UN might have promised is dumb. Someone promised me a lamborgini and a 12 inch cock yesterday, doesn't mean I'll get it or deserve it. Furthermore, if the other Arab nations feel so deeply for the Palistinians, why don't they give up some of their vast, mostly uninhabited land, to their long lost brothers? Why chip away at Israel, the size of maybe Prince Edward Island, when they have huge swaths of territory they could give their poor Palistinians?

Your "the Palistianisn use rocks, and the Israelis use rocket launchers" philosophy. I just don't get it... Rocks kill dude. Dunno if you can imagine what happens when a rock hits your head or chest, but the end result is pretty similar to a bullet. The fact that the Israeli's are better armed is irrelevant. Would it make things "fair" if the Israeli's dropped their guns and used rocks too? War isn't fair, and if the Palistinians had a glimmer of intelligence, or even better, self preservation, they would know that attacking a superiorly armed force is pretty dumb.

You seem to measure who is right, and who is wrong based upon body count. Because the Israeli's have inflicted more casualties than the Palistinians, the Israeli's are evil aggresor brutes. Here's a concept: if the Palistinians stopped antaganizing soldiers at checkpoints, stopped trying to sneak into Israeli encampments, stopped trying to smuggle arms into the west bank/gaza, and stopped trying to blow up Israeli citizens, you just *might* see a lower body count /sarcasm. Every Israeli is a trained soldier. Eighteen year old Israeli girls know how to cock, clean, load, and fire an M-16 rifle. The fact that Israel is able to intercept and kill the great majority of infiltrators, and hence have a higher enemy body count just means they can protect themselves and fight better than the Palistinians. I don't see how body count has any relation as to who the aggresor is, and who is right or wrong. Please explain

Finally, and most puzzling, is your rationalization as to why you understand how Palistinian parents could encourage their children to attack Israeli soldiers and/or martyr themselves in a pipe bomb explosion. Because their parents vehemently hate the Israeli's, this gives the parents justification to endanger and sacrifice their children in a hail of bullets? I won't even't touch this one. If you honestly believe this rationale, you are beyond hope. Just an FYI though; Israelis also hate the Palistinians and have also suffered human losses over the period of generations. But guess what? The Israelis love their children more than they hate the Palistinians, the same obviously cannot be said of their opponents.

Ycore

Oohh. Fun, fun, fun.

'First off. Whatever may have been *promised* to the so called Palistinians, by the Brits, UN or whomever, is pretty much irrelevant.'

- The British Empire, and then the League of Nations. It's not *too* hard to remember, if you wish to argue about the entire topic.
And why is it "pretty much" irrelevant? I'd thought it very much relevent if someone said "Here, have this home." Next week, I move in, and realise not only am I now sharing the home, but I have to live in the basement where the toilet pipes finish and end up getting shat on every 5 or so minutes.

'It wasn't their land before the Brits seized control of the area, it wasn't their land 5000 years ago, and it isn't their land now.'

- Actually, they did reside in a large portion of the state while under Ottoman mandate. And no, it wasn't their land 5000 years ago. I like the fact that you're obvious. It makes it all so painless. I don't believe it was theirs 1, 000, 000 years ago either.
Did I just win the argument?

'Furthermore, if the other Arab nations feel so deeply for the Palistinians, why don't they give up some of their vast, mostly uninhabited land, to their long lost brothers?'

- Because they don't. It's a political game they play with the world. Garner international support against the Jewish state, they use the Palestinian people as pawns, enough to justify several invasions. Most of the Arab nations persecuted Palestinians at one point, and certainly don't give a true, rats arse about them now.

'I just don't get it... Rocks kill dude. Dunno if you can imagine what happens when a rock hits your head or chest, but the end result is pretty similar to a bullet.'

- Must be why there's about 5 times more dead Palestinians than Israeli's then, eh?

'War isn't fair, and if the Palistinians had a glimmer of intelligence, or even better, self preservation, they would know that attacking a superiorly armed force is pretty dumb.'

- The arguments on this forum get further out of field day by day. So your anti-arab argument basis on the fact that it's futile to resist - and thus the Palestinian people are stupid, and have no right to do what they feel they must?
Is there a word for your mental disorder? Apart from "mental"?

'The fact that Israel is able to intercept and kill the great majority of infiltrators, and hence have a higher enemy body count just means they can protect themselves and fight better than the Palistinians.'

- Uhm, no, skippy. The official number of 2,600 dead Palestinians are for unarmed civilian deaths. Not "insurgents" that "sneak in to Israeli camps" or whatever bullshit you just pulled out of your arse.
They are the kind of people that get their torso torn apart when a helicopter gunship fires missles in to a market place to assasinate some wheelchair bound cripple dumbshit.

And how DARE the Palestinians harass Israeli's at checkpoints. It's almost as if they are resisting an occupying army.
Oh, wait. They fucking are.

'I don't see how body count has any relation as to who the aggresor is, and who is right or wrong. Please explain'

- Well, you see, when you kill 5 times the amount another does, it tends to signify aggressive tactics...The israeli's haven't built wooden stake forts, with the Palestinians throwing themselves atop the pointy ends.
Does it suggest who is right or wrong? Uhm, no. Not read much that's been said here, have you Skippy? There's no right or wrong in this conflict. It's a shitty hell-hole. No one has the right to judge it. Both peoples of the Israel/Palestinian state have been put in the deep end, with little to no concluding peace in the distance. It's just that the Palestinians are a little worse off. Did I say little? I mean, much worse. Partly their own fault, partly Israels, and partly everyone elses.

'...most puzzling, is your rationalization as to why you understand how Palistinian parents could encourage their children to attack Israeli soldiers and/or martyr themselves ...If you honestly believe this rationale, you are beyond hope'

- Believe it? Don't think I ever did. Understand it? Sure. Like I understand Irish resentment and Irish resistance, rebellion, and uprising. As, I believe, most Americans and Australians do. There weren't many countries sympathetic to the Empire after the Easter Rising.
The Irish used guerilla terrorist tactics to drive us British out (much like the Israeli's did in the early part of the formation of a Jewish nation) in the early 20th century, and we dealt with it harshly and quickly, and crushed them, continuously. Did that give the IRA a right to kill us over the next 75 years? Not really, no. But I understand why they wanted to.

Same shit, different continent.

'The Israelis love their children more than they hate the Palistinians, the same obviously cannot be said of their opponents.'

- Well, maybe if the Jews swapped lives with the Arabs for a few years, they'd be thinking a little backwards too.

Anything else, Skippy?

Hey Zehn, I couldnt help but notice your location...

Shouldn't it be "Scurry, scurry, Andy's here"?

Assuming I havent missed an inside joke, and that you are quoting a Lewis Black stand up.

Could be wrong =(

-Drakz

I like how you're trying to move toward the middle Halo. Its great progress keep it up. Still exaggerating the numbers though. Earlier it was 10 times the number of Palestinians killed, now you say its 5 times. Getting closer to reality, good work. Keep coming down, you'll get there.

Holy shit you're right Drakz. Thanksgod VBulletin conveniently allows me to cover up my mistake...and with power comes the god given right to abuse that power so I'll just be editing your post to be admiring my dashing charisma and my own post will be edited to manly chortles.

haha, im here to help

-Drakz