The iHate iPhone/iPhone Isn't For Me Thread

LummusL

06-23-2010, 08:09 PM

Yup...the iPhone 4 seems like a fine piece of engineering.....however

I am a Sprint customer and have been since 1996.

Lets say I go back to Hotlanta next year:

http://coverage.sprint.com/action/WebImageStream5?covType=wimax&street=&zip=&width=360&height=300&layers=TFFFTFTTFFFFFFFFTTTFFFFTFTF&city=Atlanta&state=GA

Plenty of 4G coverage.

Or...since I am probably going to attend U-Dub...

http://coverage.sprint.com/action/WebImageStream5?covType=wimax&street=&zip=&width=360&height=300&layers=TFFFTFTTFFFFFFFFTTTFFFFTFTF&city=Seattle&state=WA

Hoop! There it is...look at all that 4g coverage in Seatown!

So tell me...why should I switch to piece of shit AT&T or some other GSM carrier (which requires a 1000 dollar unlocked phone) and drink the Koolaid? The HTC EVO is just as good, if not better than the Iphone so the "best device" arguement is ambiguous at best. Competition is good. It tends to bring about better products for even those that don't clamour for the latest Sneech belly star.

LummusL

06-24-2010, 08:47 AM

Amazing that a fucking telephone is only the second thing to ever unite all of you on this board other than EQ and that I am left to feel like an asshole because I don't want to leave my service provider or buy an Apple product...but I hear it at work too.

"I dislike Apple but I buy nothing but the best so Iphone it is". They also swear they would never buy an Apple computer but then again these same people also jumped on the Ipad bandwagon too. Is it slick marketting? Who knows.

When they go back to the USA they are all going to dump their carriers as well to and jump on AT&T just so they can use their friggen Iphones, regardless if they had a good experience with their old carrier or not. Sorry but I buy AMD chips as well too for computers because yes..they are not the "Best" but they are the best value. I don't think the Iphone is the best value out there.

Taleren Bloodsong

06-24-2010, 09:10 AM

fildien

06-24-2010, 09:19 AM

Kelraz Bladesinger

06-24-2010, 09:21 AM

You aren't alone Lummus. I love my HTC incredible. I hate AT&Ts network. I love the Verizon network(especially in my area).

I love my ipod touch, so it's nothing against the iphone or Apple per se. Mine is more a choice of network than anything. The HTC incredible is a great phone too. The droid X also gives the Verizon customer an excellent option with a significantly larger screen size than the Iphone 4 when it comes out in July.

The X is indeed sexy, but the lack of a keyboard is rough. If nothing else, playing emulated games w/o a direction pad would be a huge pain in the ass, never mind the whole typing anything more than a few sentences with hands that aren't a child's.

LummusL

06-24-2010, 10:04 AM

We get it, you don't like the iphone and like your phone/service yet no one is bashing YOU. You should feel like an asshole b/c you're being one. Choose whatever plan/phone/product you like you can't blame us b/c we all like the same thing and discuss it here. My god how damn petty can one person be?

This board is not so much about discussion anymore. For the most part its a Hazzah fest where you pat each other on the backs for having no opinions other than what everyone else has. Everyone else has been run off. I am not being petty. I am just choosing not to agree with you. Being an asshole for the most part in anyone's definition is nothing more than disagreeing with your point of view without the diplomacy or courtesy to leave the person with the opposing viewpoint feeling good about themselves even though they have just been had. So yes, I am being an asshole. I think that Apple is a cult and you all are a bunch of sheep. A poll about what color phone to get? ARE YOU SERIOUS? Give me a break. How shallow can you get? Its black or fucking white for christ sakes. That when this board really started to lose it with me. Call me petty? Some of you act like teenage girls talking about getting tickets to the Jonas brothers with this Iphone stuff. All the other more interesting things going on in the world to discuss and yet.. this is the hot topic at A Ro. A phone. A consumer gadget.
I do not agree with, or even like...most of you but the debates used to be interesting. Not so much anymore. Anyway, I tried to figure out how to remove my handle from this board but I think Sanchek has to do that and he doesn't seem finished with fighting with me yet. Glad you all found your calling in life (pun intended) and yes...props for this really being a positive topic. Maybe I tried to spoil it. Or you all need someone to carry the banner and I won't do that.

/deuces. Sanchek...please delete my access. Its been real.

fildien

06-24-2010, 11:26 AM

Why do you need someone to delete your access for you? You can't just.... stop coming here? Like how people change the channel? Wow :)

Rybit

06-24-2010, 12:44 PM

I'm just surprised, Lummus, that you feel the need to raise your soapbox. You didn't have to click on the thread. No one is saying the iPhone is the best phone; it's not even really huzzah thread either. If you read the last few pages of the thread, you will find that it's a couple of people discussing the merits of the phone, ordering experiences, and so forth. You might have had a point, if people were saying it's the bestest, most awesomest phone. But it was more of an information-finding thread with a couple of people trying to find out what's going on with their preorders.

You're welcome to leave the boards in the same way that nobody forced you to read this thread. If you really didn't care for the iPhone, why did you bother posting on this thread? There are only two threads that I can see discussing the iPhone on the list of threads. No need to be a drama queen; you're welcome to continue your discussion of what you feel about a board whose community comes from a non-existent server of a game that has been on its decline. And quite honestly, what did you expect, when we have on average less than 50 readers, and maybe a tenth of the posters?

Imagine if there was a thread that people were trying to gather information on, and someone barges in and says XYZ SUCKS + YOU ALL SUCK? It just adds to the signal vs. noise problem, when people are trying obtain information. If you were running a board, would you allow the constructive discussion mix in with the criticism? I am okay with criticism, but please take it to another thread. You may even title it, "iPhone sucks and is overpriced shit!"

Taleren Bloodsong

06-24-2010, 01:09 PM

The X is indeed sexy, but the lack of a keyboard is rough. If nothing else, playing emulated games w/o a direction pad would be a huge pain in the ass, never mind the whole typing anything more than a few sentences with hands that aren't a child's.

And how would that be any different than any other touch screen smart phone?

Taleren Bloodsong

06-24-2010, 01:12 PM

Rybit

06-24-2010, 01:17 PM

That is notwithstanding the fact that some readers who are trying to obtain information on where the iPhones are being shipped are using the thread as a fact-finder. You're welcome to continue the discussion here, I'm sure you will have a pretty interesting discussion. I don't receive a paycheck from Apple, so I will make no comment about other phones since I just use the damn phone.

Anyway, carry on with the discussion on this new thread. I'm sure some non-commissioned people (or Greystone) will be interested to sell you their reasons why iPhone is good, and why some other non-commissioned Droid people will say why their phones are better.

Like I said, I just use the damn phone. I'll probably read the responses but I won't really respond since I don't know enough about the other phones. You can continue to have the argument here and use the other thread if you have something to add about the iPhone that adds to our understanding.

It's just a phone, anyway. Jesus, people. So two simple threads: (1) this thread for why or why iPhone doesn't suck; (2) other thread titled "iPhone HD" for factfinding.

Kelraz Bladesinger

06-24-2010, 02:34 PM

And how would that be any different than any other touch screen smart phone?

Well, the Droid is what most of the aps were written for, the popular games and emulators all requiring the d-pad. I kinda hate the virtual one, will be interesting to see if it works on a bigger screen.

fildien

06-24-2010, 02:35 PM

I have a question for Droid users. How does your app store work? Is it like itunes also?

Korlis

06-24-2010, 02:45 PM

Yup almost exactly. I have a "Market" icon I click that sends me to the apps page, where I can look directly from my phone. There are some you can get from outside webpages too via the phone.

The Market can be very ovewhelming with stupid apps sometimes ( which is the nice part about apple, or being able to search on the PC interface) that it makes it tough to find something you would want to use.

Ohh and I am an Android user not Droid :) Droid is a phone.

Kelraz Bladesinger

06-24-2010, 04:37 PM

Yeah, there are TONS of garbage apps out there, but generally I just go out and search for specific ones instead of just browsing in general.
Because the Android apps are all Java based instead of Objective-C it is so easy for people to port over and create stuff that was previously made for the web, or other phones, etc. which while it lends itself to some great ones (I'll rave about the NES, SNES, Gameboy, Genesis, etc. emulators all day long) which don't or maybe can't exist for iPhone, there's a lot of garbage out there too.

Google also is a lot nicer to app developers when it comes to getting apps listed, payout ($1 min for Android, $250 min for Apple PER check payout, not just initially), etc. but I hear is a real pita for international developers.

Sanchek

06-24-2010, 05:11 PM

Google has been fronting bonus money to developers of popular iPhone/BB apps to port them to Android. That's a smart move to boost numbers, but we'll have to see if they can hold onto those developers long-term. Especially in the face of this versioning mess that's emerging (http://techcrunch.com/2009/04/28/android-backward-compatibility-talk-begins-this-is-starting-to-sound-complicated/).

No one's going to waste time dicking with multiple versions of an app/site to support Android if they're seeing mobile stats like I am on some of my sites, for example:

http://ayonae.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=448&stc=1&d=1277413799

fildien

06-24-2010, 05:16 PM

Thanks for the answers guys, I'll pass it along to some friends that are inquiring about an Android phone. They asked and I didn't have a clue.

I really wish Apple could get some of those emulators I'd be in heaven!

LummusL

06-24-2010, 05:55 PM

Why do you need someone to delete your access for you? You can't just.... stop coming here? Like how people change the channel? Wow :)

Now that its not 1am and I can think a bit more clearly. The only reason I would want to have my access terminated is in order to aid in resisting the urge to comment. Old habits die hard.

That's so far from the truth it's not even funny. So many people here have stated that the iphone is 'the best phone' and then try to shout down anyone else that either doesn't like Apple products or has an issue with AT&Ts network.

edit to add: Ok it's not "so many" people because there aren't "So many people" that read this board anymore, but yes, people get shouted down if they don't feel the Iphone is the bestest whatever phone.

Natch.

Here is something interesting to chew on. WHY is it the best? The OS? The screen, The features? WHAT? What really makes a good phone leap to being a great one and a great one being the ONLY one? Why is there only room in the market for one great phone in the minds of people? Yes, I know that anyone can buy a watch to tell time but the Rolex still costs thousands of dollars more than a Casio that does the same job. Is it just the brand? Now again, don't get me wrong. The Iphone is great engineering and even greater marketing but it is proprietary like most any other Apple product and thus inflexible and ends up being an extension of whatever agenda Steve Jobs has going at the time. Also, most of the Apple people I know are so captivated by these products that one can perceive its at cult status and that a product ONLY needs that little Apple logo on it to sell like hotcakes. It doesn't have to be a giant leap. The Ipad...what does that really do? Its a big Iphone really, only it doesn't make calls. Or is it a Macbook, only it can't do most laptop things. Maybe its just a Kindle only with the usual high fashion Apple gloss and Steve Job's blessing and thus buries those that have not wisely decided to pull out of the niche market that this device caters to.

Now for AT&T: Do they actually need to provide the best service? They have the cookie now with the Iphone so honestly...unless there is some divine Steve Jobs intervention than they are free to be as crappy a phone company as they were back when my grandpop was stringing up their lines across the midwest. Back when you had one phone company and could lease (you didn't even own that fromundah green rotary phone) only one type of phone...although there were more color choices back then as opposed to now with the Iphone where you get just two, that was the only thing you got or you did without a phone. So, if we are going to have a return to just one teleco again, which AT&T very well could do if they wanted to as long as they remain the single carrier for this run away hit that is the Iphone, then someone best explain to me that if we really all just want one phone and one carrier in our country and the rest to fall by the wayside than HOW is that good? Is it really worth putting people down for because they want other choices in the market in addition to not being badgered by the Kooky Apple Cola Cult? I fought back at this whole Iphone shenanigans because of that and also due to this part of the board usually being used for what are considered "Real Life Issues" as in crap that might be important or at least of a bit more depth than a telephone and what color people want it to be. Maybe make a different section for people to comment on consumer gadgets/products and post their "OMGZ I get mine today!" stuff.

Back to the topic of competition; thankfully, there are other choices but that is only as long as people look at products objectively and don't grab something up....just because.
On a side note too, since these smart-phones currently have competing OS's in that market segment and people are happy with these different OS's, is there ever a chance that we could see the same competition now in the desktop and laptop market since if Android becomes a mainstay to users on their phones, its not much of a leap to have it migrate to the desktop environment.

Rybit

06-24-2010, 06:17 PM

Because the Android apps are all Java based instead of Objective-C it is so easy for people to port over and create stuff that was previously made for the web, or other phones, etc. which while it lends itself to some great ones (I'll rave about the NES, SNES, Gameboy, Genesis, etc. emulators all day long) which don't or maybe can't exist for iPhone, there's a lot of garbage out there too.
Actually, you are able to use Objective-C, C, and C++ in your code.
APIs and Functionality:
3.3.1 Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs. Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited).
https://developer.apple.com/iphone/terms/program/iphone_standard_agreement_20100607.pdf

Objective-C, C, and C++ is the reason that it was so easy for them to port Final Fantasy over to the iPhone. How many game consoles run on Java? The answer is zero. For the UI components, you will need to use Objective-C, but practically every game is written in C or C++.

When was the last time you played a Java game, anyway? If anything, C/C++ is more optimized for entertainment programming, and Java is more for the server/enterprise world.

There is a Game Boy Advance, NES, and SNES emulator for the iPhone. Except, you'll need to jailbreak it to run them.

Korlis

06-24-2010, 06:30 PM

but we'll have to see if they can hold onto those developers long-term. Especially in the face of this versioning mess that's emerging (http://techcrunch.com/2009/04/28/android-backward-compatibility-talk-begins-this-is-starting-to-sound-complicated/).

No one's going to waste time dicking with multiple versions of an app/site to support Android if they're seeing mobile stats like I am on some of my sites,

Actually Google changed thier position when they released thier Nexus One. Google now says apps should conform to the N1 and if an app doesnt work on the N1 it is the problem of the phone manufacturer. Ya there will be issues between Android releases but Google has said that it should slow down soon and be about 1-2x a year.

And with having OTA updates N1 users should have no issue keeping up to date with Android versions.

Sanchek

06-24-2010, 06:35 PM

It gets back to the same problem that fractured/stunted Java ME development on other platforms, like the BlackBerry. The OTA updates are nice unless your carrier doesn't push them to you or takes forever to customize them. HTC having to retool Sense for Froyo before deploying is a good example.

Korlis

06-24-2010, 06:38 PM

If you have a nexus one you dont have to worry about the carrier pushing them or retooling since it is a base phone. It the google nexus one, not AT&T's and doesnt carry the crap apps carriers add to phones.

Sanchek

06-24-2010, 06:58 PM

You have people pointing to the EVO, for example, but it's still probably weeks or months away from getting a 2.2 update (along with the rest of the HTC phones that use Sense). If you're a developer and Google isn't paying you a bonus, you hit the biggest market first. That fracturing is a really big deal.

Korlis

06-24-2010, 07:27 PM

True the nexus is an HTC phone without sense

Greystone Thorngage

06-24-2010, 08:04 PM

Maybe I am a douche, but this thread well the original was started tohelp give you guys info, not really a discussion on the phones, but whatever. I just a get a ton of PM's and emails this time of year so i thought i would help reduce that. If you want a discussion on phones, start a thread for it instead of hijacking one.

For the record I hate Apple's policies, I will never own a Mac computer or an ipad, but they make a damn fine phone.

Also, if people want to act like teenage girls and OMG NOWAI, why can't you let them do it? Unless you want to argue just for the sake of it.

Here is something interesting to chew on. WHY is it the best? The OS? The screen

At the time of launch had the absolute best touch screen on the market, and multi-touch was unheard of. It still has one of the best responsive screens. The phone is stable, it doesnt have the issues windows mobile has which is easily the worst MobileOS. It has a great form factor and easy of typing, unlike Palms, even the PRe/PIxi is a bitch to type on if you have hands that aren't dainty. It has GREAT user driven/created apps. THe Apple App Store single handedly makes this phone awesome. Android's market is getting there but is still is lacking. The ease of use that beats out blackberries somewhat cumbersome menu driven system. It is a phone ANYONE from the age of 10-90 can easily figure out. Clearly labled funcitonality barely anything is buried in menus. Apple provides amazing support for their devices. Yes there is some cult status but there is very few things that other phones can offer that iphones don't do, or the iphone can't do better. The iOS 4 update fixed a majority of my gripes about the phone.

Now for AT&T: Do they actually need to provide the best service? They have the cookie now with the Iphone so honestly

Yes we do, AT&T isnt stupid they know the iPhone boon will end. Also we provide data for 1000's of integrated devices, e-book readers, picture frames, GPS devices. They are dumping tons of money into fixing the issues that NO ONE could of anticipated. Even the most critical people have admitted the network has improved in two years. Please remember, AT&T was leading before the iphone too. Verizon's AllTel merger is what put them over.

LummusL

06-24-2010, 08:26 PM

Some stuff on Toms. Which has some links to other stuff. Reviews mostly and more lively conversation. See? Its not just here. This actually is a rather hot topic but who knows if its in the context of this board section. With so few posters and readers it might not even matter but anyway:

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/iphone-android-google-iphone-4-review,news-7183.html

Maybe I am a douche, but this thread well the original was started tohelp give you guys info, not really a discussion on the phones, but whatever. I just a get a ton of PM's and emails this time of year so i thought i would help reduce that. If you want a discussion on phones, start a thread for it instead of hijacking one.

For the record I hate Apple's policies, I will never own a Mac computer or an ipad, but they make a damn fine phone.

Also, if people want to act like teenage girls and OMG NOWAI, why can't you let them do it? Unless you want to argue just for the sake of it.

Fair enough. Maybe there can be a new discussion category on the boards though where buying decisions/reviews/information etc can be passed on related to consumer buying decisions. A sub board of REAL Life Discussion. Granted probably all that is really needed is restraint on the part of assholes like me but if you want to talk about LED 3D televisions and what is going on in the Middle East than those two topics are diametrically opposed enough to warrant seperate areas. And no, I don't argue for the sake of arguement since I am sure that comment is directed at me. It probably has more to do with how absolutely little I have in common with most anyone who still uses this board.

Greystone you say "we" in reference to At&T? You are on their payroll? You know how that whole resulting bias thing works when there is the issue of controversy sorrounding the provider of your livelyhood etc. This whole thread by all rights could have been just a plug.

Greystone Thorngage

06-24-2010, 09:26 PM

YEah, I am a manager of an AT&T Corp. store. I am biased, pretty sure i mentioned that in a earlier thread. I also see a side of AT&T that the media doesn't show, much like if someone here actually worked for BP home office, i would hope they shed some light on things instead of just taking the media's view on things as gospel.

fildien

06-25-2010, 05:55 AM

I disagree at having yet another area of the board to discuss stuff. That would make sense if we had tons of users but we don't and most of us are already just in a few sections of this board as it is. I personally think movies/books/real life should be together in a sub forum...but I'm not the admin and I doubt seriously they need or want to take the time to make more forums for a dying one anyway.

I still come here b/c of threads like this and for the movies/books/games discussions.

Also, Grey thank you for making the thread. I appreciate it :)

Yasp

06-26-2010, 05:27 AM

I've yet to jump on the smartphone bandwagon... to me a cell phone just needs to make voice calls.

Silentcerri

06-26-2010, 11:21 AM

Hey lum in this month's wired mag is a flow chart made for you!!! it is a what cell phone should you have chart. I will find it and post it.

LummusL

06-28-2010, 05:36 PM

I've yet to jump on the smartphone bandwagon... to me a cell phone just needs to make voice calls.

They become increasingly more handy the more time you spend on the road. The telephone is more of a secondary feature along the lines of "It will make coffee and wash your car....oh and it also makes phone calls".

Cloudwalker21

06-29-2010, 05:20 AM

Rybit, code may be written in C, C++ and Objective C, but Apple's regulations on how you write for their phone hurts my soul as a programmer. There are numerous tools available, which are now restricted by Apple's programming guidelines, which would allow you to write in any number of languages and have that code compiled to your choice of iPhone supported languages. This by itself isn't enough to drive people away necessarily, but its still a pain in the neck.

That whole part about private API's hurts too. There were a couple of API's that I'd heard of (admittedly my knowledge is a bit lacking since I don't care about the iPhone either) that were designed to hide the lower level details of getting the phone to work from developers. Now there's more overhead associated with learning how to program for the innards of the phone.

I think if I do get a smartphone, since I'm still in the same boat as Yasp, it'll be a droid. I just can't justify the amount I'd pay for a data plan yet since I don't need it that much.

fildien

06-29-2010, 08:55 AM

I asked for some input on this...someone who does actively program phone apps.... Here is their input on what you said Mdana. Please don't take this as me bashing you, I just didn't think some of what you said jived with what little bit I knew so I asked someone that I know who does develop apps for phones on a regular basis.

The tools that this person mentioned are tools for people who don't know how to program. These tools were allowing non-skilled programmers to make quick programs that all looked the same. Just take a look at iTunes before apple cleaned it up, plus using someone else tools means that you have to wait until that tools company updates their tools before you can work with latest updates from apple. You can see the problem here. How can apple roll forward if the quick and dirty tool company doesn't update also? Who controls the q and d tool company? Not apple.

As far as hidden API, yes there appears to be functions that are hidden, but I haven't had any problems explaining to the iPhone what I want to do with the unhidden APIs. Hidden APIs are hidden for a reason. Most of the time it is for future supported function or testing. There are enough unhidden APIs to do what you want. Also, why are you after lower level functions that could make your app unstable or allow you to bypass the security of the phone? You don't need the lower APIs.
As the person mentioned, with apple you can write code in c, c++ and objective c. All non- interpretive languages and languages that are very good in letting one describe what they want to do. Plus limit code size and allow fast execution.

Objective c++ is the language of choice for iPhone development. I came up to speed very fast on this language because it grew up from c and c++ and I know c very well.
If this person had ever developed android, which I have also developed on, they would know that android is built up on a modified version of one the many Linux distributions out there. Those apps for android are written in java, which is an interpretive language. Also, there are ways to get below the app layer on android to allow anyone to do anything. There is no controlling group monitoring or approving apps. Plus every android phone vendor has their own version of android, so there is no way of knowing if an app written for android will work across the board. It is nice that with apple you target one OS release with a tools release to support that OS version. Apple is the controlling agent. Who is the controlling agent for android? Not Google, because anyone can put the android java engine on whatever version of Linux they want, which is why there are so many different version of android phones on the market. You don't have to believe me you can check for yourself. Just go to a phone store and look at the different android phones and different OS version.

It also makes you wonder why an android phone with the same capability as the iPhone needs a faster processor like the one GHz snapdragon. Could it be the java engine running on a Google modified Linux environment running on top of some Linux distribution is slowing things down.
I forgot to mention that Google also modified the system file layout of Linux under the java engine, which makes it harder for Linux apps to run below the android java engine.

I've developed for both iPhone and android. I prefer for the time being the control and structure of working with apple. Until Google approaches android with the same passion that apple approaches iPhone, I care not to develop for the android platform. Beside how can Google direct an open source OS, API, and java layer when they don't own any of it?

My thoughts and position.

Rybit

06-29-2010, 09:15 AM

Well, you can only use Java on Droid. I guess that should hurt your soul more. And Google has shown they're capable of exercising their curated control by remotely deleting apps from their server.

I don't know about you, but Objective-C is very easy to use. And you make it sound like those three languages are so obscure. There are millions of libraries open and commercial for C and C++.

Finally, you should never use private APIs simply because the spec for those APIs are never well defined. What is so crucial about using an undefined framework that you couldn't implement in a public API? We never use private APIs unless it could be justified. And on our iPhone platform, building a very complicated app (including using an external hardware attachment used by Apple retailers for credit card swiping and barcode scanning called Linea Pro), we've had to use private API exactly never. Cite me one example on the iOS platform where you can't use a public API to do something.

Finally, you could always use an unauthorized language and link against it intermediarily to the toolkit, because it is very difficult to tell an app has been written in a language other than Objective-C, C, or C++. You make it sound like Apple is making you program in Cobol, while those three languages are widely supported. As a programmer, you should be comfortable using multiple languages because even though syntax is different, logic is usually the same. Magellan, TomTom, Square Enix were able to do it, largely in part to the C/C++ libraries. Now, does Droid have TomTom, Final Fantasy, or any widely ported app?

The point is, use the device you'd like to use. But don't make frivolous claims about iOS. Don't tell me you can't get by using public APIs, because the 95,000 apps on the App Store apparently have. Yes, Apple has curated control over the platform, and I am not defending or against it, but I can see why that would avert some users from using it, but even Android has curated control (and to the user that knows nothing of malware, it is a sensible solution since they expect things to just work).

I'm OK with you saying Droid is netter for you, but you make it sound like the iOS platform is so limiting when Droid has yet to deliver as many apps or as many portable apps to iOS. And if you plan to develop for a mobile platform, if you were smart enough to use a private API, you can clearly get around in Objective C, C, or C++. Now excuse me while I try to deal with some XML config file in Java...

Sent from my iPhone

Cloudwalker21

06-29-2010, 09:36 AM

Lets take a step back here.

"As far as hidden API, yes there appears to be functions that are hidden, but I haven't had any problems explaining to the iPhone what I want to do with the unhidden APIs. Hidden APIs are hidden for a reason."

Private API's and Hidden API's are two separate things from where I'm sitting, but this may be nomenclature mismatch on my part, your friends', or both of ours. In the case of Hidden API's yeah, I agree, keep them hidden. Don't let people use stuff that may not work yet. Private ones are ones that Apple didn't make that wrap up functionality of the phone to hide the details of lower level functionality of the phone from the person doing the programming.

Second, there was no mention in my post about droid development, just that that was the smartphone I would choose if I did get one. That became a focal point for how I don't know anything about developing apps for the droid. I don't know anything about it. I never said I did, nor did I mention that it was 'better' than the iPhone in this respect. I also do not know details of how that OS works, nor did I make claims to do so.

Onto Rybit's post.

Again, my choice of phone is a purely subjective one that is based on personal preference. I did not say that the Droid's development route allows more freedom than an iPhone or not. I'm sure there are any number of tools that will allow you to cross-compile code of any sort into Java. However, I never mentioned this, nor am I going to state this as canon.

I am simply stating what my perception of the iPhone's developmental restrictions, which is that I feel that its unfair to force people to write in C, C++ and Objective C (which are easy enough to learn), when there are tools available that allow code from other languages to be compiled to those.

You ask for specific examples of where I can't use a public API to do something. I can't, I don't develop for the phone. I never professed knowledge of how development for the iPhone works, and only professed peripheral knowledge of the API's I'd mentioned. I just don't like the idea that if someone writes a tool to make your life easier (by hiding specifics of the phone works behind simplified structure methods) is suddenly out of the running to be used.

No, apple is not forcing me to write Cobol. I happen to know all three of those languages, and am comfortable using all of them. What I'm not comfortable with is being told that I'm not allowed to pick the language I feel is best suited to the task. From a purely 'straight-laced' perspective, you are now telling me to do something illegal to do that, by running it against an intermediate cross-compiler which is defined as being against their developer agreement.

I don't appreciate being called into question over stuff that was apparently implied in my saying that I would buy a droid over an iPhone.

And since we're doing this, excuse me while I get back to writing an API to make using GTK drawing features more simple. :p

Sanchek

06-29-2010, 09:46 AM

You can write "open" iPhone apps in HTML/CSS/JS. You can achieve a pretty surprising amount of native-feeling functionality using CSS3 transitions and HTML5 features like geolocation. Most of the native apps (excluding games) on my iPhone could just as easily be implemented that way, skipping Objective-C and the approval process completely.

You can also use Titanium to repackage those apps for the app store if you want. Quite a few apps on the app store are actually HTML/CSS/JS in that wrapper.

Sanchek

06-29-2010, 09:47 AM

I am simply stating what my perception of the iPhone's developmental restrictions, which is that I feel that its unfair to force people to write in C, C++ and Objective C (which are easy enough to learn), when there are tools available that allow code from other languages to be compiled to those.

Is it also unfair that Apple developers can't write Objective-C apps for Android?

Rybit

06-29-2010, 09:59 AM

I just don't like the idea that if someone writes a tool to make your life easier (by hiding specifics of the phone works behind simplified structure methods) is suddenly out of the running to be used.Isn't that what Android is? By choosing a language like Java, they are making it more difficult for you to delve into lower-level areas of the system, and by nature, is a sandboxed environment. Objective-C, C, and C++ make it possible for you to dig very deep into system APIs within your user permission level.

I still don't know why you feel so strongly about private APIs. They are undocumented and are the APIs that Apple use to make the public APIs work. So if you use a private API, and Apple releases iOS 4.1, and it breaks your app, you have a non-functional app. By the sound of it, you are still in college and in your "hacking" phase. There's a very good reason why those APIs are private. If you can't tell me what the public APIs can't do, you won't be able to go very far with your argument.

The problem isn't you making a point about buying Droid over iPhone. You decided to get into the argument about the iPhone's lack of functionality, and so here we are:
Rybit, code may be written in C, C++ and Objective C, but Apple's regulations on how you write for their phone hurts my soul as a programmer. There are numerous tools available, which are now restricted by Apple's programming guidelines, which would allow you to write in any number of languages and have that code compiled to your choice of iPhone supported languages. This by itself isn't enough to drive people away necessarily, but its still a pain in the neck.

I'm afraid your understanding of private APIs is misguided:
Private API's and Hidden API's are two separate things from where I'm sitting, but this may be nomenclature mismatch on my part, your friends', or both of ours. In the case of Hidden API's yeah, I agree, keep them hidden. Don't let people use stuff that may not work yet. Private ones are ones that Apple didn't make that wrap up functionality of the phone to hide the details of lower level functionality of the phone from the person doing the programming. They were hidden, until people decided to delve into the framework. Hidden APIs are not documented. Private APIs are not documented. They are the same thing. Since when is a private API not hidden? Isn't the definition of private, well, private? So you're saying to keep them hidden? Because I have news for you, buddy, because private APIs happen to be hidden too!

And trust me, you don't just find a private API accidentally. The difference, from a developer’s point of view, is that public APIs are more than just a list of what works now; they constitute a promise, a commitment, from the platform provider of what will continue to work in the future.

A private API call is subject to change or vanish in the future. There is some reason why a private API is private. Could be that it is here to stay, that the platform vendor simply hasn’t gotten around to documenting it yet. But it could just as easily be a stopgap that the vendor intends to completely replace.

Cloudwalker21

06-29-2010, 11:00 AM

I'm afraid your understanding of private APIs is misguided:
They were hidden, until people decided to delve into the framework. Hidden APIs are not documented. Private APIs are not documented. They are the same thing. Since when is a private API not hidden? Isn't the definition of private, well, private? So you're saying to keep them hidden? Because I have news for you, buddy, because private APIs happen to be hidden too!

I'm referring to private API's as API's that are not developed by Apple, ones that are developed by a 3rd party for use with the phone. I apologize for using the wrong words, but that is what I've taken the term to mean. Hidden API's are the ones you've described, several times. I apologize if that's the wrong term, that is what I've been referring to when I said private.

If you can't tell me what the public APIs can't do, you won't be able to go very far with your argument.

No kidding. I'm well aware of the fact that I know nothing about developing for the iPhone, because I've never really been interested in doing so. I've stated that, but you've ignored that or chosen to belabor it to make a point.

My problem is with my definition of private API's here. If there's a 3rd party/private API that I can use to streamline a task, or do something better than I would originally have thought to do it, why should I not be allowed to use it?

On Sanchek's point, aren't there intermediary tools that could be used to compile Objective C into Java? From my understanding of Apple's developer agreement, those aren't kosher. I don't know anything about Droid's developer agreement(s), or if they even exist, so I can't comment on what the policy is regarding those cross compilers.

In closing, I'm glad that everyone here likes their iPhones. I'm glad that there's passion over them. But there's a pretty severe misunderstanding that I have it in for the iPhone. In general, I do not take issue with Apple products, because I simply don't care enough to do so. I'm taking issue with my perception of a policy as being unfairly restrictive to how a developer is allowed to make applications for the phone.

Yes, I believe that Apple should take steps to ensure that the apps that make it to their iPhones are quality products. I just don't like the idea that restricting use of 3rd party API's and cross compilers as a means to that end.

Sanchek

06-29-2010, 11:08 AM

You could always use GWT to write an app in Java and deploy to an iPhone. For non-3D stuff, that might even perform better.

I suppose it's technically feasible to "uncompile" from Objective-C object code to JVM IL, but that would be taking at least a step or so backward. I can't imagine anyone would want to do that for the tiny Android market.

I'm not sure that any apps have actually been denied for those cross-compilation issues yet. Unity (http://unity3d.com/) is still okay, for example.

Cloudwalker21

06-29-2010, 11:14 AM

It may be the case that there haven't been any denied for cross-compilation reasons, which I think is okay. I just don't like the concept that they could be denied for that, because I believe that its a dead-end way to try to control the quality of apps being submitted for approval.

Sanchek

06-29-2010, 11:20 AM

Also keep in mind that Google is the only one of them that has remote killed an app at this point: http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/06/google-flips-remote-kill-switch-on-android-apps/

Malse

06-29-2010, 11:29 AM

On Sanchek's point, aren't there intermediary tools that could be used to compile Objective C into Java? From my understanding of Apple's developer agreement, those aren't kosher.

That's theoretically possible but I don't know of anyone who has endeavored to target the JVM from another language as anything but a experiment. That would not be a trivial undertaking. However, that is ok with the development agreement. What you can't do is provided a host platform like that and then downloads code to it from outside. (there are a few companies that do c->java compilation but that's not quite the same thing because you can strictly subset most of C in Java, as C doesn't have it's own object model).

The 3rd party library thing is a little iffy but many people have included them successfully, you just need to be aware of what the library does that you aren't necessarily using.

fildien

06-29-2010, 11:32 AM

I don't appreciate being called into question over stuff that was apparently implied in my saying that I would buy a droid over an iPhone.

Rybit, code may be written in C, C++ and Objective C, but Apple's regulations on how you write for their phone hurts my soul as a programmer. There are numerous tools available, which are now restricted by Apple's programming guidelines, which would allow you to write in any number of languages and have that code compiled to your choice of iPhone supported languages. This by itself isn't enough to drive people away necessarily, but its still a pain in the neck.

Fair enough, however you came off like you knew what you were talking about and it didn't sound quite right to me so I asked an authority who did know and he gave his reply. I asked him if I could post it and he said yes, so there we go.

My like or dislike of a phone has nothing to do with how the application development is done but misconceptions and misinformation do concern me. Your comments made you sound like you were an authority on app development (specifically the bolded txt) which we now know is not the case. I was cautious in that I didn't want you to think it was an attack, this guy is a very matter of fact, very blunt person. he's not being a smartass he's just debating and doing it with facts, experience, vs. just opinion. Sorry if you took offense but I wanted the air cleared and since this debate is ongoing in emails, facebook, and other forums I also directed people here. This is probably one of the better discussions about the topic.

Rybit

06-29-2010, 12:32 PM

Cloudwalker21, when have they restricted third-party frameworks?

As the Unity example shows, they've even made unofficial exceptions if the the framework relies on hidden/private APIs (you know, the ones that Apple uses internally).

See this Stack Overflow (http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1492600/what-are-the-most-useful-third-party-iphone-frameworks) for a list of some third-party frameworks (or your definition of "Private API" contrary to industry language). We use ObjectiveResource (http://iphoneonrails.com/) to interface with our internal software REST calls.

Don't forget that if you internally distribute using your own deployment option (you can deploy apps via MobileSafari on iOS4 if you choose enterprise) or ad hoc deployment, there is no vetting or curating process. You can write all the apps to your heart's desire.

Cloudwalker21

07-08-2010, 04:51 PM

You've convinced me that I'm wrong. That'll teach me to jump into an argument without really getting my facts and nomenclature straight. :P

Rybit

07-08-2010, 06:21 PM

Eh, debates are fun. I learn a lot from debates, including the ones I'm wrong. The iPhone is not as bad as a development platform as you might believe.

Unless you're making an emulator (which would be denied on the basis of executing other downloadable/installable code such as ROMs, flash apps), there are very rare instances of Apple denying apps (they approved Opera browser, but begrudgingly denied Google Voice for reasons still unknown) .

However, there is no question that Apple is overprotective of its users or in a position to abuse their power. It is their platform, and by deciding to develop for it, we have agreed to their terms. If you are not OK with that, the Android will be a better platform.

My irritation with Apple is they provide beautiful tools and a very clean API, yet there are times when it feels like Apple is customers first, developers last. Apple is more concerned about making the experience smooth for its customers, at the expense of the energies of the app developers to do it right in the first place.