Disclaimer - If you think this topic has been A) Covered B) Covered to death or C) useless because you know everyone's religious opinions, then please fuck off.
Disclaimer 2 - Only one hamster and a camel were harmed in the making of this thread. Both are recovering well.

Now, I'm not a religious person. But I went to a funeral this week. And this always pisses me off when I attend functions at religious places. I'm not as stupid as to believe that a function at a church, for example, isn't going to be of a religious nature. Not at all. But why, WHY, do the people conducting the functions have to always infacturate it with religion?
A while ago I went to a friend's wedding. And for the first time, I felt totally uncomfortable about not being religious. The couple whose lucky (erm..) day it was weren't particularly religious (So why get married? No Halo, one topic at a time), but the vicar, oh the vicar, he went in to one about Christ and God and Christianity. I'm pretty damn sure he was dying to wave his arms around through his semi-preaching speeches. Being made to sing hyms, to say prayers, at one point he said "Everybody, even if you are not religious, stand up and say this prayer". The pressure sucked, but I didn't stand. And for that, I was made to feel like a complete bastard. Surely it's my right, as much as it is their right, to not stand and say a prayer; to not put my hand in the air while I sing a hym (I kid you not, that's what he asked everyone to do). Is this necessary? Granted, you're in their house. The ceremony is a religious one of sorts. But that stuff? Surely that's unnecessary.
But I digress. As I was saying, I went to a funeral. The vicar (or whomever they are called that do the funeral services) came out in his white robes and silly clothes drapped around him. The service got under way, and he rambled on for a while as they do. "We will never forget, blahblahblah". It was OK, quite endering at points. But then it become more religious, in this case, more christian. The guy started thinking for us. "We are all here because we love Jesus Christ, and through him we send our love to the ones who pass away, etc". And it really ticked me off. Why did he have to go on a Christian bender? Then came the prayers, and the hyms, and all that bollocks. A friend of my uncle (whose funeral it was) stood up and said a few words. His words were good. They were religious-free. And because of that, I could sympathize with them. There's no need for a sly attempt at religious conversion at the expense of a funeral or wedding. But I see the alternate argument - "No one is forcing you to go to the Church. It's a religious place, of course they'd express religion."
The problem is.. what other choice do you you? At least in weddings you can choose a registry affair over a church function. But what choice do you have for a funeral? And that's both rhetorical and actual. I mean.. what choice does somebody have?
I'd just like to celebrate (or not, as it were) large happenings in this life without it having to be riddled with religion.
Seems to me like it's the Christian way or the High-way.

*beats a camel over the head with a hamster*

You are quite right in some ways. I am religious and death and religion go very much hand in hand. You have as much right to think religion is a load of crap as I do to have my faith.

A lot of people are hypocrites in the fact that they want to get married in the church even though they don't ever pray or care about the faith normally.

I see it you have a few options.
1) Become Christian (probably not likely)
2) Tell the people which invited to you that you are not comfortable with religious service and just rock up to the party afterwards (or wake depending)
or
3) Make more heathen friends.


Either way you have as much chance of convincing religious people to not celebrate one of the sacrements in the church as they do of converting you and making you a priest.

The pressure sucked, but I didn't stand. And for that, I was made to feel like a complete bastard. Surely it's my right, as much as it is their right, to not stand and say a prayer; to not put my hand in the air while I sing a hym (I kid you not, that's what he asked everyone to do)

This is prime example of why you suck
The funeral was not about you.. yet you made it about you.
It was to honor your uncle. So instead of being an attention whoring self absorbed piece of pig shit, stand up, think about lesbian porn if you want, but stand up.

But Nooooooooooooo, Halo needs to make a spectacle. Because everything revolves around YOU. Your own personal beliefs override everything and everyone..
A funeral is about the dead persons life, showing respect and appreciation for the person he or she was, yet you werent even capable of that..

Congrats on being a human being with absolutly no redeeming qualities.

Was the deceased religious? If not, then the funeral ceased being about that person once the priest started into the religious entreaties. It became, instead, about the priest's beliefs and his inherent desire to spread those beliefs to others. If the person was religious, then I'd say Halo was on the right track, but may have been distracting (I wasn't there).

For myself, I don't mind standing and giving my respects to the dead (or whatever the function's target is). I don't pray, sing, or otherwise go through the motions of pretense, and if someone wants me to do any of that sort they receive polite refusal.

Yeah, it's like this time I went to some Japanese person's house and someone explained to me that it was not polite wear one's shoes in their house.

I was like, "HEY! FUCK YOU! I AM AN AMERICAN AND I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR FUCKING CULTURE!" Because, after all, when VOLUNTARILY going to somewhere, it's still my right to be a flaming fucking asshole. Right? I can just stomp around in my muddy shit-kickers, and even though it's tremendous pressure, and they stared at me...I had to do it. What's with all these fucking Japanese and their culture-mongering!?

(The above is what we like to call "sarcasm", for those of you that lack the appropriate sized nets to catch it.)

1- Don't go if it's that tough for your delicate psyche. (Or toughen up and quit being a fucking whining pussy.)

2- Realize it's not about them FORCING religion down your throat. Are you so self-absorbed as to think that the ceremony(ies) in question were put on for YOU!? Do you think they would just be kicking back and having a pint if it weren't for the fact that Halo was there? Since you were, they decided to make it a "Convert Halo" party?

3- Have some respect for the beliefs of others. It doesn't mean you are stamping your approval on whatever it is. It just means that you are showing respect for their beliefs, be it religious, cultural, or personal.

Good god, post your email address, and I'll send you a flyer on "How not to be a complete asshole every waking second of your life." Believe me, that pamphlet changed my life. I'm not an asshole for upward of 60-75 seconds a day. (This is not one of those times.)

Feltch this, off to work. Have a day, y'all.

I too have strong religious beliefs, but I don't intend to beat anyone about the head and shoulders with my beliefs. As much as I have a right to my beliefs, you have a right to your non-beliefs.

Something that should be pointed out here...

Weddings are not about the guests, they're about the bride and groom. If the minister/vicar brings "religion" into the ceremony, then the happy couple probably have some religious beliefs, whether they practice or not.

Funerals are not about the dead, they are about those left behind who are still living and having to deal with the loss of a loved one. And even though the deceased may or may not have been a religious person, it's quite possible that someone in the family is. Funerals are about paying one's respects to the deceased and the comfort and solace of the bereaved.

As a believer in Christianity, I have been a bit "uncomfortable" when attending services or events that were observed by friends whose chosen religion is Judaism or Catholicism. I did my best to respect their beliefs and follow the ceremonies even though I did not follow their belief.

There has only been one time that I can recall ever refusing to attend a wedding because of religious beliefs. The actual reasons don't matter, suffice it to say that I had some deepseated religious conflicts with the situation. I politely explained that I would attend the reception, but I could not make it to the wedding. Everyone was fine with that and all had a good time.

<shrug> I suppose it's all in how you look at it...

Its unusual I have observed behavior like Halo's quite often recently. Anyways this is what I deduced it to in my head.

People like Halo are intelligent, however since stupidity runs rampant nowadays Halo percieves his intelligence as greater then what it really is when comparing with his peers around him, that or is just lacking the wisdom to go with his intelligence. In any case the person becomes detached from others believing that they are better, a measure of conceitedness is involved.

So for example Halo, thinking that all these folks around him are sheep in his, at this time, very tiny head, decides to rebel against the sheep and behave like a 9 year old child. Obviously rational beings realize what has already been said... you are there to respect the deceased in whatever manner chosen by the family/will etc. Choosing not to is a slap in the families face, but how do you explain this to a person like Halo? This person believes that they were fighting a intellectual war, but couldn't be further from the truth. Its a weird social dilemna that plagues just a few folks.

/shrug
just a opinion

Oh and for the record Halo said its not his uncle but a friends uncle.

I agree with everyone else with the first 90% of your post Halo. However, I re-read what you wrote and came upon this.

<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">The problem is.. what other choice do you you? At least in weddings you can choose a registry affair over a church function. But what choice do you have for a funeral? And that's both rhetorical and actual. I mean.. what choice does somebody have? I'd just like to celebrate (or not, as it were) large happenings in this life without it having to be riddled with religion. Seems to me like it's the Christian way or the High-way.</blockquote>

I live in a relatively small community, only 30,000 people or so, and pretty much everyone is either Catholic or Lutheran. And yet I've been to two funerals already where religion was not an issue. They were held at churches for the sake of space and whatnot, but God was never mentioned.

With that in mind, I do believe you can request a non-religious ceremony. It's just that most people do have a personal religion and desire to be 'sent off' with that theme in mind.

So if it bothers you that much Halo, I'd suggest making sure that you put in your last will and testament, and make it -known- to your family (In a non assahloic way, just mention it one day casually, y'know, in your non-raving-lunatic mode) that you desire a secular funeral.

My mom's requested that when she dies, she be cremated. My dad requested no ceremony at all since he hates being the center of attention in large crowds. My brother wants to be cremated and have his ashes spread over the 50-yard line at Half-time during a Packer-Bear game in Lambeu field.

Okay, so my brother's request is a little out of whack, but you get the picture. Everyone has last requests, what they want done. Me? I want to be dumped on someone's front lawn so I can piss someone off, even in death.

In the meantime, when it comes to ceremonies of any kind, I'd leave the religious politics at home and just pantomime if you have to.

Though the way the priest said, "Even if you're not religious" is pretty bad I agree. Most priests with half a brain will simply say, "I invite you all to join me in praying the following" which leaves it open.

If you are that uncomfortable with religious themes, or being "pressured" to participate I recommend finding out beforehand if the weddings or funerals you'll attend will be administered by a clergyperson. If they are you'd probably feel better just offering congratulations or condolences in a religious neutral environment.

Dear Halo:

That 'hand in the air' thing is usually a hallmark of evangelical Christian sects. Interesting that your friends went for that sort of ceremony if they weren't particularly religious... Maybe they had just hired out a church and didn't know what they were getting into? Did you get any feedback from your friends about it?

It also sounds like the priest in that first case (the wedding) *was* actively trying to coerce/proslytize during a wedding ceremony (I witnessed this once during a charismatic Catholic wedding I attended about ten years ago as well), which I think is reprehensible, but it *is* part and parcel of how certain sects do things, and you should expect it when you walk in the door.

Regarding the issue of 'what you should do' in such situations...

On the issue of being asked to *actively* participate in saying a vow, prayer, etc, that you do not believe in: Try not to make a spectacle of yourself, but if you feel strongly about it, don't do it! I ran into this problem fairly frequently during the latter part of my late grandmothers life, and again at her funeral (which I spoke at). She belonged to a traditional Episcopal church and could not attend without my help. Going to church was an important part of her life, and out of love for her, I went. I sat, stood, etc, at all the appropriate times, but I *didn't* (and won't) say the Nicene Creed, and didn't under most circumstances take communion, but asked for a blessing instead. You may think that this is somehow 'less' than making a more 'active' protest, but remember that the other folks who are there are also there to celebrate/mourn, that you are a guest at someone else's ceremony, and one should respect their feelings and be as unobtrusive as possible.

Under *most* circumstances (especially occasions like weddings/funerals) the pastor and other folks there recognize that not everyone attending the service is of the same faith, and won't push the issue of participation. If you know that the person/persons' event is going to be held at an Evangelical or such church where heavy coercion is frequently encountered, then rather than make both you and your loved ones miserable, give them your best wishes, politely decline, and see them at the reception.

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Autonomous Collective

Um...hello....most of the time when someone dies or gets married doesn't someone of a religious order preform the wedding or say a few words at a funeral? Of course they are gonna talk about religion. For most "normal" people it gives them a peace or reassurance that everything will be alright. (I know it would for me) Now, I know I am gonna get flamed for this, and you know what.....go right ahead.(I believe in God, and I am not ashamed to let ya'll know that.) Have you ever thought that maybe you are feeling uncomfortable when people talk to you about religion is because you KNOW you are missing something in your life? If the ppl who are getting married don't believe in God, or don't have religious beliefs, you can have someone marry you that isn't "religious" and who won't be saying something about God in every otehr sentence. (same with the person who passed) Like I said.....most of the time it is a preacher/pastor/father who preforms these, so you can expect em to saying something about God and religion.

Mckana, the difference is in part a matter of degree. If you plan on a secular ceremony or one with limited religious overtones and the pastor starts waving his hands in the air, making religious exhortations, and "speaking in tongues," it'll make anyone uncomfortable (except your average evangelical). Sure, one should expect a priest to mention god even if the ceremony isn't particularly religious in nature, but one can go too far with such behavior in the wrong context.

This may not apply to Halo's situation, but it's germane to the overall discussion.

When I was in High School I was eating out with some of my friends. A guy comes into the fast food place and stands on the table. He begins to yell "YOU ALL ARE GOING TO HELL!! REPENT...yada yada yada". When someone like that tries to push their religion down your throats that way, then to me it gives us (other Religious folks) a bad name. Not everyone who is religious is that way. To talk about God in a funeral to make ppl know that the person who died is at peace, or at a wedding so that the ppl getting married will have some sort of outlook of "I can do this...there is someone on my side", then there is nothing wrong with it. I would agree....you push it upon someone is not right.("preaching" to em nonstop) It just makes em turn futher away from it. If you are in a normal everyday setting with someone and they don't want to have your religious beliefs upon em....then that person needs to back off and respect them. (even if you don't agree with them.)

As often as not these days, when a non-religious couple gets married in a church, they are doing so to please immediate family who are religious or simply out of tradition. If you are invited, it is likely their unspoken wish that you participate and they are asking you for help in pleasing their family. By attending and "dissing" the particular religious beliefs, even if only by not standing when asked, you are in fact placing your happiness over the happiness of the couple who invited you. Try not to be selfish.

In my view, by accepting an invitation to a religious wedding you are saying "I will help you celebrate in the manner you have chosen." That means you should respect the ritual aspects and participate to the extent you are capable of. No need to believe, but you should at least stand, sing or whatever when requested. If that is something you just can't bring yourself to do, then you should not attend the ceremony. It's that simple.

Ditto for funerals. The circumstances are slightly different but the concept is the same. Place the feelings of the bereaved over your own comfort. If that is something you can't do, pay your respects to the dead before or after the religious ceremony.

Another thing to think about is the idea that weddings and funerals are often places where tradiition, moreso than "what you want", can come into play.

A lot of people who don't go to church will want to get married (or have a funeral) in a particular church because their family goes to the church or they mom/grandma/great grandma were all married there or this church has been the most important church in their community for 100 years, or any number of reasons.

I'm a good example . I'm lazy. I grew up strict Catholic, but since I've moved out I've probably been to church less than a couple of hundred times over 13 years (the average was brought up by living with a woman who insisted on going to 7:30am Sunday mass with her Mom). But, given a choice, I'd want a church wedding, and preferably a Catholic wedding.

Am I really religious? No. But the tradition does seem important to me.

As for the raising hands thing. Get used it to it.

Call them evangelical. Call them bible churches. Call them whatever you want. They're on the rise. People really seem to enjoy the singing, the music, the additions of guitar and drums, etc. There are a lot of churches that have doubled/tripled attendance by adding "contemporary" services. And when you have those types of services, you're gonna have people who really get into it.

The respectful thing to do, since you're in their house, is to just smile to yourself and look at the floor. I do it about once a month, when we hit the contemporary services that The Woman prefers.

Thanks to all, besides LL and his band of fucking retards (It isn't against the law to stand by your opinions and view points. It doesn't mean you disrespect something. It doesn't mean you think everyone else is a sheep. It's called being yourself. You may have to deal with that in your life time. I can avoid singing hyms and saying prayers, and still love, cherish, and miss my uncle). Complete, fucking, idiot. Reverse the roles. If it was a completely non-religious affair, yet you wanted to say a hym or a small prayer for the dead, would you be the biggest asshole alive all of a sudden? Get some fucking brains.

'Have you ever thought that maybe you are feeling uncomfortable when people talk to you about religion is because you KNOW you are missing something in your life? '

- Yes, you hit it right on the head. That is exactly why I felt uncomfortable, it had nothing to do with the priest yelling "RAISE YOUR HANDS! PRAISE THE LORD!"
Anywho..

'Oh and for the record Halo said its not his uncle but a friends uncle. '

- It was my uncle. My uncle's friend was the one doing the speech.

'People like Halo are intelligent, however since stupidity runs rampant nowadays Halo percieves his intelligence as greater then what it really is when comparing with his peers around him, that or is just lacking the wisdom to go with his intelligence'

- Hey it's Mystic Meg! Let's see how much you get wrong. I'm not very intelligent. All my grades and education results have been medium at best. Percieves my intelligence is greater then my peers? Uhm, I hardly think so. Most of my friends are pretty much smarter than I am.
You're doing good so far. Let's see what else..

'Choosing not to is a slap in the families face, but how do you explain this to a person like Halo? This person believes that they were fighting a intellectual war, but couldn't be further from the truth. Its a weird social dilemna that plagues just a few folks. '

- The family, was a son and a widow. The son is one of my best friends, and the widow is my closest extended family. Neither of which could give a toss if I stood, sat, or done cartwheels throughout the ceremony, as they know how I feel. Believe I'm fighting some intellectual war? Is there a dope party 'round LL's tonight? I didn't get a fucking memo.
So uhm, B+ for effort boy. About an F for correctness. Which coincidently is what I got on my last Sociological Analysis essay.
So that's the lovely - yet poorly executed - flames out of the way. Keep 'em coming, this is NAG ya know. Maybe beef them up a bit too. Now on to the actual point of this thread..

That's one of the main things I was wondering Zehn. I had absolutely no clue what the alternative to a non-religous funeral was. And no one else around me seemed to know either. The general attitude was 'You have your funeral at a church, or you don't at all".
Who knows, when it's my time to pop, perhaps religion will be worn down even more so, and - like non religious weddings these days - non religious burials and funereals will be more common.

'Though the way the priest said, "Even if you're not religious" is pretty bad I agree. Most priests with half a brain will simply say, "I invite you all to join me in praying the following" which leaves it open. '

- Exactly. He was basically saying "Fuck you all, do as I say". Not something you really intend to hear from someone like that. Shouldn't the church be a bit more open minded? Oh wait.. the entire homphobic issue. Maybe not.

'If they are you'd probably feel better just offering congratulations or condolences in a religious neutral environment. '

- No. You see, to me that IS disrespectful. I'll go and endure the religious bullshit, but I won't participate. I mean, wouldn't that be the same for you? Not praying is one thing - not even turning up and saying "sorry for yer loss" on the phone, is an entirely different ball park.

Nydia, I've absolutely no idea. I asked my older sister - whose best friend it was - and she mentioned something about the family of the bride, being quite religious. But she also agreed that it was weird (she too doesn't participate in things like that when they happen. She too doesn't respect those whose function it is, any less than if she were participating). But odd it certainly was. And too strong, just TOO strong, for a wedding.

'Try not to make a spectacle of yourself, but if you feel strongly about it, don't do it! '

- Hey look, LL, another asshole! Nydia, do the Dance-of-Assholeness, with me! But you are right. No spectacle made, no comotion was endured. I simply didn't sing, pray, or wave my arms around. Does it mean I huffed and puffed and looked like a miserable outcast? That everyone stared in astonishment and gasped and were outraged? Hardly.
I guess this is all harder to convey on an American/christian dominated forum, where religion for you people mean a lot. Over here, not so much, if at all. You'd be lucky to find 50 in 10, 000 who go to church. Yet the traditions of weddings and funerals being enroached in religion remain.
Perhaps that's why it's so odd to me.

Remember that LL - not being a puppet all your life. Good idiot. Good idiot.

That's one of the main things I was wondering Zehn. I had absolutely no clue what the alternative to a non-religous funeral was. And no one else around me seemed to know either

If you looking to alternative ways for a non-religious funeral:

Its perfectly normal in my eyes and actually been to a few done this way. The body is cremated and put into a urn. The ones hosting the funeral put the urn up with some pictures and everyone who wants comes and visits with the family shows up. Food and drink are usually served, stories are swaped and all go on there way to greave or not to greave afterwards.

Funerals are so much money these days..and for what? Your dead and thats it. I will be cremated and my ashes spread near were we had put my grandfather..at the family cabin, dumped on the ground near a large cedar tree over looking the lake...end of story. (just keep the dogs away from pissing on me:p )


Ibudin

This isnt about religion..
Cause, basically.. who cares what some lame 3/4 retarded British kid who hasnt really been anywhere or really done anything thinks about God or the lack thereof.
You are the only one who thinks it matters.
*newsflash*
it doesnt.

This is about common decency and manners..
Maybe you friend and his mom didnt give a shit about religion.. Do you think that maybe they would have wanted the ceremony to be about the person who they just lost, without some Narcassitic asshole drawing unwanted and unnecessary attention on themselves?
You are so stupid, so thoughtless and so immature that you dont realize there is a time and a place for everything.. But
Being the absolute piece of crap you are...
You walk into a church... willingly... fully aware of what goes on in these places and what the ceremony was about..
Then decide to throw disrespect on the priest, the church, the people there who ARE religious, by making some oh so evolved yet utterly meaningless blatent display of your personal beliefs. Its all about you.. You you you you you you you you.
Everything revolves around you. How you must be enjoying this thread too.. cause its about YOU.. wow.. You have some real fucking problems kid.

Being religious or not being religious is NO RIGHT for another person to be disrespectful.

I disrespect you because you are probably the single worst example of a human being I have ever encountered. Not because of your beliefs.

Had this been a neutral place, or some place where you would not have had reasonable expectation for something like that to happen.. then fine, sit, stand.. whatever... But you fucking knew..

Once again.. this is not a thread of religion.. this is a thread about what a attention starved, pathetic pile of trash you are.

- No. You see, to me that IS disrespectful. I'll go and endure the religious bullshit, but I won't participate. I mean, wouldn't that be the same for you? Not praying is one thing - not even turning up and saying "sorry for yer loss" on the phone, is an entirely different ball park.

No Halo, to me its disrespectful to be a disruption at a somber or happy ceremony. I'll gladly attend a ceremony for a friend if my non-participation isn't an issue up front and at the event. Now, if you weren't a disruption, or harrassed by anyone in a very specific way but simply uncomfortable with the request to participate in a ritual that you don't believe in then the problem might not be with the minister running the show.

If I thought for a moment not participating in a ceremony would be more disruptive than not going then I'd skip it and share a moment with my friend on a more personal level later on. That doesn't mean a two minute phone call or a cutesy card in the mail so please don't make it seem like that's the only alternative to showing up at the ceremony in person.

But what choice do you have for a funeral? Halo, I skipped past all the whiny/bitchy posts. I say fuck the funeral and go get loaded at the wake.

*Shouldn't the church be a bit more open minded?*

HAHAHAHA dont ask religious people to be open minded.

<blockquote style="padding-left:0.5em; margin-left:0; margin-right:0; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; border-left:solid 2">AHAHAHA dont ask religious people to be open minded. </blockquote>

I should show you the conversation I had with some chick about open mindedness. She came to the conclusion that unless you smoke pot, you can't be open minded and that all religious people are closed minded.

I love hypocrisy.

www.statistics.gov.uk (http://www.statistics.gov.uk) shows that people who are members of a religion outnumber those who aren't and those who didn't answer by over 3 to 1.

I'm sure it means a lot to a lot of people. They're not the people you hang out with or they're just private about it.

Or half of them are people like me, who are members of the church, but don't really give a shit about religion. That would cover most of the people I know.

'Funerals are so much money these days..and for what? Your dead and thats it.'

- Never bury me Ibudin :P

LL.. You're getting old. Very old. We know you're attracted to my hairy man buttocks. We all know this.
This thread is *not* about religion per se, you are correct. It's more about the alternatives to what seemed like only one choice. The wedding example and the recent funeral example were there to highlight what I mean, and why I meant it.
The fact is - it was neither disrespectful to not "fake" religion for people who really couldn't give a toss, nor was it disruptive and a cry for attention, as once again, I think people gave as much heed to that as they did to the tiger prawns I schoffed down my face at the wake.
Mmm.. tiger prawns.

I love you LL.

I'll just ignore the flames and let you deal with em as you like Halo. Anyways

I had absolutely no clue what the alternative to a non-religous funeral was. And no one else around me seemed to know either. The general attitude was 'You have your funeral at a church, or you don't at all".
Who knows, when it's my time to pop, perhaps religion will be worn down even more so, and - like non religious weddings these days - non religious burials and funereals will be more common.


I don't know how it is where ya live, but over here we have funeral homes specifically for that. Hell, there's one 5 blocks from my house. It is a place used soley for funerals(it doesn't even have to be at a cemetary), and it doesn't have any set religion at all, though you can bring in whomever you want to speak. To be perfectly honest, unless the person whom had died was as religious as the priest, the priest was an asshole. I can understand a really religious ceremony for a religious person, but not if they weren't into it themselves.

The best speech of any kind that I've ever heard was given at my Grandmother's funeral, by my priest no less. The funeral was at the funeral home I spoke of, with about 15 people or so. He just did an amazing job, made me cry, and only mentioned a bit of religion.

Funerals are not and should not be about god anyways, they are about the person going up to meet god.

So yeah, look for funeral homes in your area Halo if you're interested.

I h8 religion.

Halo:
"I'm not very intelligent."

Okies your right, I'm wrong...your dumb. My jobs over in this NAG.

Blazemore

So like yeah, Halo comes on a little too strong. I recognize his state of mind though, I was there not too long ago. The touch and stench of religion is just totally revolting and you feel the need to lash out at it at every turn.You get over it. That doesn't mean that you'll become religious however, but sooner or later you simply realize that throwing a tantrum isnt worth your breath.

Some of us loathe the church. That doesn't mean we loathe religion, or the many religious people out there. It just means is that if we could, we'd wipe our asses with your bible, convert the mosques into parking garages and melt down all the religious jewelry out there into computer circuitry components.

For us, putting our hands up in the air and saying a prayer against our will is basically like being buttraped with a spiký dildo. But some of us still do it, we do it out of respect for the deceased or the people about to get married. We do enough so as to not cause a scene. It sucks, but when you think about it, if the fools want to believe in god... and think that the saints (who for all we know were just drunken whores who gave jebus a tumble in the hay) will bestow them a bigger cock... let them. Hell, playing along is just mocking them anyway.

I come off as an asshole here. And hey, guess what, I am one. The second you say "I leave that to god", or anything to that effect, you skip down from "human" to "fool" in my book. Now 'ohmigawd', you think, Kivorn thinks I'm a fool! I need to redeem myself by... well just hold it right there. We both know you're not gonna lose any sleep over it. To you I'm the fool, and in the end it's just better we just don't hang out. But guess what, the next time you, in a drunken stupor, have premarital sex screaming "oh god yes, fuck yes, take it bitch" you're gonna find someone like me five feet away, grinning at you and handing you a few torn out pages of the bible so you can wipe the jizz off the back seat of your car.

It just means is that if we could, we'd wipe our asses with your bible, convert the mosques into parking garages and melt down all the religious jewelry out there into computer circuitry components.

0_o

I just dont understand the threat Kiv.

Like i can see if a Catholic would refuse to worship some other god, and would act like that..

But according to atheists.. its a meaningless ritual. A ceremony for show. Do or dont do it.. there is no conseqence either way.
Yet you celebrate christmas.. willingly take the gifts.. You dont refuse to buy goods from stores that hang "Merry Xmas" banners.
Thats why I find Halos act so self aggrandizing.

Its this ultra hypocritical miltiant atheism that disgusts me so much. It ties in with this Politcal Correctness mess that has been going around.
In actuality, THAT whole movement is closer in form to the religion of the past that atheists revile so much, yet now practice in a truer form. Amazing.
Its not enough to have religion be a personal thing, and something people could respect as a difference in people..
Nooooooo
This movement NEEDS to attack religion, to vilify it. To heap scorn and derision on people who DO believe in it.
Religion is a threat.. something to be feared. heh.
An interesting twist on the old theme..
Control through fear.

Thats all it is.. control.
Talk like this... think like this...
Feel guilty for having wealth.. Hate and distrust your own country.. Only the stupid believe in God.. God is dangerous.. Strong is Bad.. Weak is good..

Militant Atheists live under the illusion that they have some sort of intellectual freedom, yet in reality they are the same sort of sheep who swallow church doctrine whole without personal reflection.

Beware of anyone who says they have "the truth"

I went to a Catholic highschool because they gave me a scolorship to play hockey for them. I do not believe in god but I had the decentcy to SHUT THE FUCK UP AND SHOW SOME RESPECT! Who gives a rats ass end what you believe. Just be quiet and be respectful. In the case of the wedding you were a guest and forfiet to oppinions. Just enjoy the show and be happy anyone at all likes you, dickhead. Jesus fucking christ.

On a side note. I feel much better now. Thanks.

What is truth?
Is truth unchanging law?
We both have truths
Are mine the same as yours?

Crucify him, crucify him!

What do you mean?
You'd crucify your king?

We have no king but Caesar!


He's done no wrong
No, not the slightest thing!

Crowd
We have no king but Caesar
Crucify him!

So basically in a nutshell what Im saying is this...

For Halo to do this... and to the same and equal extent.. to create this thread..
Is in all ways the equality of some religious nutjob coming here and creating a thread saying "Jesus Saves"

Any overt display of this type merely illustrates the inherent weakness of the position taken.

Take comfort in youre belief or lack of it.. but for fucks sake.. STFU
"Fanaticism is ... overcompensation for doubt."
-- Robertson Davies,

Maybe if I lived in 50+ years ago.. I would be an atheist.. I outright REJECT anything that tries to control how or what I think and reason...
However we live in a time and an age where Religion in the west is basically harmless and no theat to anyone or anything..
The means to control people are still there.. just applied equally on either side of the issue now..

Quote
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It just means is that if we could, we'd wipe our asses with your bible, convert the mosques into parking garages and melt down all the religious jewelry out there into computer circuitry components.
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Well, now that you've offended those who have beliefs in Christianity and the Muslims (mosques), would you care to say something nasty about Buddha, Zen, Hari Karishna, Sikhism, Judaism and those who worship the Great Pernicious Lyrical Spherical Denizen of the Deep?

I don't begrudge you the feelings you have toward "religion", but I do have a question... Is it religion you have a distaste for, or the fact that there are some truely happy people out there who do have beliefs?

I am not going to argue the existence or non-existence of God. In my opinion, when you cease to exist in this life, you will find out one way or another if there is a God. If there is, and you've been a bad boy... well.. I guess you're gonna burn. If there is no God, then I don't suppose you'll know anything about it... you just won't exist. Or maybe you'll get fortunate and come back as an armadillo and become roadkill on some lonely state highway in the middle of nowhere in west Texas.

Either way... people use their beliefs ( I did not say religion ) as a way of coping and getting through life. I think that before you begin to bash religion, you need to determine what you are bashing. When you say religion, do you mean a belief system in which there is some supreme being or beings respinsible for directing our day-to-day lives? Or are you talking about the organized system of churches and the rules, habits and customs imposed or mandated by the MEN AND WOMEN who govern that church organization? There IS a difference.

I have my beliefs, I hold fast to them and worship in a manner that is commensurate with those beliefs. I DON'T belong to a particular church, sect, organization or other organized religious governing body.

I believe that it's those religious governing bodies that have given "religion" a bad name. If you read the Bible, the Talmud and various other "religious" writings, you'll find that most of them say the same things in one way or another. Killing is bad, sins of the flesh are bad, being nice to your neighbor is good... etc. It's the organizations, the papacy, the vicars, organizational directors, Ayotollahas (sp?), and other religious LEADERS who have soured religion for most folks.

Insinuating that you would use pages from the writings and teachings of the book(s) that stand for one's religious beliefs as something to clean your backside is an insult. I realize that's what you intended... but that puts you in the same category of those who would make a scene at a wedding or funeral.

Be nice about my religious beliefs, they are mine after all, and I won't talk bad about your football, baseball (insert your favorite sport) team.

/rant off

Or chill out and realize he probably doesn't keep a few bibles handy by the throne instead of a few rolls of TP.

<grin> That too...

I really wanted to make the point that most folks are upset with a "religious organization" rather than a religion. And what does it hurt to let someone have their beliefs in whomever they choose.

That's what I had interpreted Kiv's post to mean, but I have no idea. I don't commit to believing in a god. Science is quickly replacing religion for me.

First, a couple facts about Palimax. I'm agnostic. I do not know if there's a god(s), and while I perhaps foolishly believe there is a "greater order" to the universe, my "religion" is primarily "skeptic."

I'm also an ordained minister of the ULC (http://www.ulc.org/). Feel free to contact me for weddings and, what the hell, your next bris. :)

Back in, oh, 1994 or so my good buddy Dave got married. Dave is Catholic, and so was his bride-to-be. Dave asked me to be his best man, and despite not being Catholic, I spent four hours one Saturday afternoon alternating between kneeling and standing while a guy in a black dress rambled on in Latin about something or other. Why? The religious portion of the cerimony wasn't important to Dave or his bride. It sure as hell wasn't important to me; but it was important to the family and a lot of the guests.

No Palimaxen were harmed during the production of this wedding.

My girlfriend is religious. Not a "Jesus loves you" bumper-sticker sort of religious type, but a "our daughter could benefit from going to church now and then" religious type. She goes to church with my mother and my daughter once or twice a month, and my daughter goes to church day-care two days a week so she has an opportunity to play with other children her age in a group setting.

When my daughter is old enough, she'll make her own decisions about religion, just like I did. In the meantime, she'll learn some stories and parables that teach some fairly good morals.

It meant a lot to my family to go to her baptism, and the church is progessive enough that us not being married wasn't an issue. Guess what? It didn't hurt me one bit to stand up a few times and reject satan. (Sorry, I have mental images of Michael Corleone at the end of Godfather...)

*EDIT* I had meant to add that my own wedding (I'm since divorced) was your classic Las Vegas affair. The guy who married me probably had an ordination much like mine :)

The guy who married me

(

Well, I guess we know where you're mind is.

Ahahahahaha.

For most "normal" people it gives them a peace or reassurance that everything will be alright
So people who don't believe in some creature that can not be proven to be existant are not normal?

And death is nothing religious, it's nature, you die, your body decomposes and your bones are left to be food for bacterias.
No God can prevent you from duying.

I don't begrudge you the feelings you have toward "religion", but I do have a question... Is it religion you have a distaste for, or the fact that there are some truely happy people out there who do have beliefs?

The first part. I have a massive distaste for almost all of religion, but if people are happy with it, and don't push it on others, then I'm all for it.

L2, I agree with you. Disrupting a ceremony and pulling everyone's attention straight to yourself is extremely selfish and, in my eyes, should be avoided. The ceremony isn't about you, the people there doesn't give a shit about you, so why be obnoxious?

As for beliefs... I believe (sic) that everyone has them. They use them as pillars of strength, guides and cling to them for comfort. It's only human to believe that the universe is aligned in a certain way, and to live your life accordingly. I don't begrudge people their religion or whatever they choose to call it. Hell, sometimes I have no idea whether or not I believe in a higher diety. I'm an agnostic to the bone, I truly and fully admit I have no clue whether or not a god (note, a god - not "God") exists - but so far I've seen little to prove his existance a fact.

Now here's what I dislike... The fact of the matter is that most people are religious because they were raised as such. Most children are "taught" to love god. Sure, religious homes spawn atheist children and secularized societys spawn religious nuts... but the trend is always intact. Secularized homes usually produced secularized children, and vice versa.

If you want to follow your beliefs, make sure they're yours. Not the bible, not the koran. Don't be a sheep, make up your own mind. Now here's the trick... most "modern" religious people don't even follow the bible. But they still cling to it, which I find extremely hypocritic.

Now as for my post, that's where I used to be a few years ago. Like L2 noticed, it's a defensive mindset. It's a "crush kill destroy" towards anyone trying to make up my mind for me. It's a relatively common patten for a teenager to adpot. Halo's in it right now. I got out of it eventually. I'm much more mellow now, although deep inside me my feelings haven't really changed. I'm just not a fanatic anymore. Just as I won't allow you to make up my mind for me, neither will I try to make up your mind for you. Why waste the energy? Why hate something when you can use that very same energy to love instead? Hating is a waste of time. Anger is a waste of time. They both lead to the dark-err-nevermind.

'Okies your right, I'm wrong...your dumb. My jobs over in this NAG.'

- That's spelt 'you're'.
/sigh

* I had meant to add that my own wedding (I'm since divorced) was your classic Las Vegas affair. The guy who married me probably had an ordination much like mine Oh the humanity. At least tell me you were married at the Elvis Drive-Thru Wedding Chapel.

and, what the hell, your next bris. I hope you have steady hands there Rabbi. :b

Well here is the rub. You are basically saying that you would teach your children to think and/or decide for themselves. That in itself is a belief system, just like religion or secularism. The fact of the matter is everyone teaches their children some sort of philosophy by example if not by rote. To complain that religious families teach their children to be religious is, well, hypocrisy if you don't also complain about secular families teaching their children to be secular. All people impose their belief system to some degree on their children if they are at all involved in the upbringing.

Think about it. Your child sees you behaving in a certain way and espousing certain beliefs. Are they suddenly going to decide for themselves some morning over a bowl of cheerios that some other way is correct and your opinions are wrong? Such decisions are only made after extensive external input from other people, usually in the late teens or early adulthood. In the meantime your children toe your line, i.e. they follow what you teach. To whine about one section of society who do not share your beliefs teaching their children as they see fit is quite unfair when you yourself are teaching your own children according to your belief system.

There are degrees to this, however. A parent could take their child to church to expose them to religion but still explain why non-believers hold their position and vice versa, allowing the child to eventually make up their own mind. Or one can be more dogmatic, saying, "This is what is true, though some fools believe differently."

The above is probably uncommon for both sides, but it's there. For myself, I actually did come to switch my beliefs "over a bowl of Cheerios" (probably Rice Krispies) with little outside input. My family attended church irregularly, but I was in Sunday school, part of a church youth group, and attending confirmation class when I decided agnosticism was a wiser choice. Again, this is probably rare compared to decisions made "under the influence," but it does happen.

Society today, even in the most secularized country in the world (Sweden, where I live), still majorly revolves around religion. Weddings, funerals, confirmation (which I refused to partake in, but something most of the people I've met have been through) and so forth.
Shit, 90% of the country's primary schools still have their spring graduation in church.

You'll be exposed to religion whether you want to or not.

Palimax is clearly the smartest person in this thread. Not because of his religious beliefs but because of his outlook on life and respect for it in general. You need to teach a class.

That is interesting. Compare that with the US (which according to some people on this board is a hotbed of religious extremism) where there is no church involvement in public schools to speak of. To find any church involvement, you have to attend a church-run school or university.

I suspect Sweden is also much more monolithic than the US when it comes to religion. My understanding is that the majority of those who do practice religion are from a single sect of Christianity (that's not to say others aren't there, just that they are a distinct minority). The US is more fragmented in it's religions so there is no all pervading cultural influence from a single religious sect. Also we at least pay lip service to the seperation of church and state (some of us take it very seriously) so for many of us the only exposure to religion we have takes place outside the school system.

Anyway, my point is that expecting a family to teach it's children a competing belief system to that which the parents adhere to is folly. I don't see atheists teaching Christian doctrine to their kids, nor do I see Catholics teaching atheist principles to their children. All people want the best for their children. Since the parents have more or less made their decision as far as what they believe, they consider it the best thing to teach their children.

I understand dislike of a competing belief system. But ranting about how people come to their competing beliefs because of childhood teachings while ignoring ones own guilt of doing the same for your belief system is pretty pointless.

Yes Gulor, and to a certain extent it was what LL was rambling about in his flame. The world is very much still centered around religion, even in an age where - as far as my corner of the world goes - the majority aren't religious, or at least don't step inside a church.
Law, tradition, rules, the system, all based on religion. You cannot escape it.

'You are basically saying that you would teach your children to think and/or decide for themselves. That in itself is a belief system, just like religion or secularism. The fact of the matter is everyone teaches their children some sort of philosophy by example if not by rote'

- Are you sure though? Enabling a child to have freedom of mind is not really a teaching as such. Philosphy? I don't know. It surely is not the equvilant of teaching them a religion. Now, I would very much agree with you if you were to take the example of someone teaching their child NOT to be religious, then yes, that would be on the same level as teaching them to BE religious. But allowing them to be religious or not at their free will isn't exactly the equivilant.
I can remember when I was a little lad in school. We sung hyms and said prayers every morning, in a non-christian school, in a non-christian area, among non-christian families.
WHY, OH WHY.

Which is exactly what I'm talking about.

I can remember when I was a little lad in school. We sung hyms and said prayers every morning, in a non-christian school, in a non-christian area, among non-christian families.
WHY, OH WHY.

Which is exactly what I'm talking about.

No, what you were talking about originally is going to a function at a religious institution and bemoaning the fact that religion was mentioned.

If the very threat of religious intonations at your own funeral or memorial service or whatever is bothersome, stipulate in your will that you should be cremated and your ashes tossed in the dustbin with all the other trash. There's no afterlife and your physical remains are only so much worm food so what happens to them is irrelevant anyway, right?

Then leave all your money to a friend with instructions for him or her to throw a huge block party complete with strippers and booze. :)

You're way off my point though Gulor.

I'm merely saying that parents shouldn't emphasize their doctrine as the only available option. I won't teach my kids to worship, but they'll sure as hell get to know what it is, and they can make up their own minds from there on without fearing my disapproval of their choice. Just the same as a religious home shouldn't force-feed their kids their religious texts, but rather explain what it is and let the kid decide for itself when it reaches a mature age if it wants to take up the religion.

I won't teach my kids to worship, but they'll sure as hell get to know what it is, and they can make up their own minds from there on without fearing my disapproval of their choice. Just the same as a religious home shouldn't force-feed their kids their religious texts, but rather explain what it is and let the kid decide for itself when it reaches a mature age if it wants to take up the religion.This isn't much different than the alternative, which is teaching your kids to worship. while providing an open relationship that allows the same choices. It also has the benefit of providing for a first-hand factual choice as to choosing or rejecting religion based on its own merrits.

EDIT: As my friend is fond of pointing out, this is much like people who say they're not gay, but who've never let another man pound them in the ass. I mean, how could they possibly know if they're honestly gay or not? :)

Halo,

It has been said that religion is the crutch of a weak mind (what with all the logical inconsistancies in the bible). But the reality of the matter is that religion is belief system that helps those who need help be it from divine inspiration or just fellowship with your fellow man. The wedding and funeral from the original post were religious in nature due to whatever reason. Simple actions such as standing in a wedding ceremony dont have to be a religious act, think of it as showing respect to the couple getting married. Perhaps your seemingly childish insurrection in standing during the ceremony made you fell better, perhaps you lost track of the purpose of the event, but like many of the other readers of this post YOU made the functions about YOU.

Do you not see this as selfish in the extreme?

Saberius

Kivorn-

I am not sure you are getting my point. The very view that "keeping an open mind" is desirable is a belief system in and of itself (it happens to be the one I share, but that is beside the point). It is not the only belief system. For example, if you truly believe that "keeping an open mind" leads to temptation/damnation according to your view, you would not deem it desirable for your children to be exposed to these other influences. Why do you think so much of the conservative muslim world puts such strict censorship of media in place? It is because they feel "keeping an open mind" is dangerous to their societies.

You and I consider it desirable to make informed decisions after exposure to different ideas. We are likely to teach this viewpoint to our children from an early age. In my mind, that is no different than teaching a child religious doctrine if that is what you consider desirable, at least in the methodology. No child grows up in a vacuum, self learning evreything. They are taught by their elders according to the cultural preferences of the society they belong to. So complaining that another viewpoint teaches it's children that viewpoint when we ourselves are doing the same exact thing with our viewpoint is inherently hypocritical. That is what I am trying to point out.

I am not a religious person. Personally I find most if not all religious doctrines beneficial to a society to a certain degree, providing some structure for what we consider civilized society. But I believe in none of them literally and when the competing religions become too aggressive or intolerant of others they can become a detriment to society. No war is as vicious as a religious war.

I get your point Gulor :)

Even a hybrid of all the philosophies in the world is still a philosophy unto itself, and based on the concept of behaviorism it will be passed down to our children.

Exactly. Our "religion" is freedom of choice, so we see everything through that prism and teach our children the same.

I also think you have to keep in mind that Kids are basically retarded adults..
Dont believe me? Go read B-Net forums or join a Zommy guild.
But seriously..
The human brain doesnt acheive its full potential for logical thought and reason until sometime after 16 years or so.. some later, up until early 20s..

It would be foolish to assume that this lovable idiot that is your child can be capable of making life lasting decisions about religion, life, ect, ect.. and you would irresponsible in letting them..
When my son is 12 and says "Dad, I dont want to go to church, because God isnt real"
I will be proud of him for his independant thought.. But I will tell him to be quiet and go finish getting ready for church.

Wait a minute. *High schools* now give out *scholarships* for playing *hockey*?

Lord.

WTF is Hockey?

It is the responsibility of parents during the formative years of a child's life to do their absolute best to teach skills and values best suited for the child to become a productive member of the society they belong to.

If I were to have a child and only teach the skills (i.e. reading) and simply left it up to the child's luck in finding influences for values, there is no telling what the result would be. With my crappy luck, my kid would probably stumble across a translation of Mein Kampfe and decide to start goose stepping everywhere. To avoid that sort of thing you have to oversee what children get exposed to, which means you are imposing your values to some degree.

I am not sure what age really is the break point between having a clue and being a malleable pile of mush. When I reach that age, I will let you know :lol

'Perhaps your seemingly childish insurrection in standing during the ceremony made you fell better, perhaps you lost track of the purpose of the event, but like many of the other readers of this post YOU made the functions about YOU.
Do you not see this as selfish in the extreme?'

- I can see how *you* would see it as selfish, if you don't understand the context a bit better. I think the setting in your mind is that I was at a deeply religious function. surrounded by christians saying prayers, and I was sitting in the corner with my arms crossed, making a spectacal about refusing to participate because of my morals and principals. But well, no. Don't be so swayed by LL's crusade about making me look how he wants me to :P
If it was a KKK rally and I was invited by a member, and was asked to throw a potato at an ethnic minority hanging from a cross, and declined, am I making it "all about me", or simply declining because it's not something I believe in?
Radical example, of course. Racial situations are a tad different from a burial, no doubt, but the people participating in the KKK event would equally be adamant as those religious types at a funeral.

Although I think that I make it pretty clear that I'm in no way opposed to religion (ie: beliefs, values) or teaching your children such. I'm opposed to hypocrisy, churches and indoctrination and the use of such to escape the need to make up your own mind.

Oh Poor Halo..
Now with the victim mentality? How sad..
"I" made you look like what you are??
Really? "I" started this post? "I" described your actions and formulated your responses?
And now Im some Svengali that is placing these "misconceptions" in Everyones brain but yours?
Thats right Halo.. blame everyone but yourself.. Because NOTHING is your fault.. how perfectly fitting into your narcissism.
You "pwned" yourself dumbass..

Ive destroyed you on these boards so many times its really not any fun anymore.. You did all the work on this one shitbird.

Then again, if you're religious, what the fuck are you doing at a funeral anyways, which is fundamentally a religious ceremony? Heh.

That would be like attending a confirmation or baptism.

Er, "Not" religious that should read.

If it was a KKK rally and I was invited by a member, and was asked to throw a potato at an ethnic minority hanging from a cross


You went to the meeting, then?

Wait a minute. *High schools* now give out *scholarships* for playing *hockey*?

It was a private school funded by the parents and private fundraising. The arch Dioses did not support this Catholic school...not sure why exactly.

Zehn, a funeral is more of a social gathering than a religious event. A funeral is always more for the survivor's than the deceased. You're there to offer you condolensces to the deceased's family and friends, or to recieve them yourself. Religious, agnostic or atheist, grief is still reality and social gatherings like funerals and wakes help with comfort and closure.

'You went to the meeting, then? '

- Noo. Noo.. *looks around innocently*

LL, you have so clearly owned me. It is almost unbearable. No. No wait. It's really not.
You've really slid from your old flames. I do miss them.

We can conclude from the basis of starting at this thread that Halo is a selfish child. From the responses he has made to other posts he is a racist bigot. These two things should be enough to encourage the rest of us from giving any weight to anything he might say.

Saberius

Are you coming on to me?

Halo,

Mrs Manners says you are a rude prick who should have politly declined the invitation to a CHURCH if you are offended by particiption acts of worship.

It is really not that hard of a concept to grasp is it?

Sure, the fact is, I would have went to the ends of the earth to wave my Uncle off for the final time.
What was unnecessary, however, was the over-zealot use of religion at what was, IMO, rather a cheeky time to use it.

So I think the question is - Can *you* grasp that?

So you would go to the ends of the Earth to "waive him off" but standing out of respect at a service was asking too much?

And do Brits really still use the word cheeky?

'So you would go to the ends of the Earth to "waive him off" but standing out of respect at a service was asking too much?'

- Yes. Are you always this slow?

Wait. Don't answer.

I fail to see how a lack of involvement with the ceremony led to the rest of the gathering failing to practice their own beliefs. Had he actively protested the ceremony, he would have been negatively affecting the experience for the rest of the assembled people. However, should he not be allowed to express his own grief or sadness in his own way simply because it is not how the majority wishes to express their own emotions?

Why don't you learn some manners and grow the fuck up. It was not about you, it was about respect for the dead mans wishes.

I fail to see how a lack of involvement with the ceremony led to the rest of the gathering failing to practice their own beliefs. Had he actively protested the ceremony, he would have been negatively affecting the experience for the rest of the assembled people. However, should he not be allowed to express his own grief or sadness in his own way simply because it is not how the majority wishes to express their own emotions?

You have a good point.

The question is why did the drama queen feel he needed to post about it here? The point of his post was not about how all the other people felt about him sitting.

iT WAS ABOUT HOW HE FELT. He posted that he felt put out because he was asked to stand up in a house of worship. I am fairly positive he could have cared less how the other people felt.

iT WAS ABOUT HOW HE FELT. He posted that he felt put out because he was asked to stand up in a house of worship. I am fairly positive he could have cared less how the other people felt.

I don't think so or atleast that is not what i understood out of what he said.
I understood out of his poste that he posted it because in the UK there is only one (socially acceptable) choice for a funeral.
That is a religious type service, there is really no other choice.
This means that at every funeral you're practicly forced to partisipate in some religious ceremony, not because you want to but because you don't have a choice.
You are being forced to act religious even though you're not.
Because there is no alternative to choose from, everyone that dies has to more or less have a religious funeral.
I see his post more as a protest against the religious society he is in then as being about him.

Only real choise he has is not go to the funeral and is that a viable alternative?
Not really in my opinion.

Only real choise he has is not go to the funeral and is that a viable alternative?You mean, in addition to the choice of simply participating in the event, right?

'The question is why did the drama queen feel he needed to post about it here?'

- Because it's a fucking RL NAG forum you fucking dipshit.
And I'll moan about Nearly Anything that Goes.
In this instance, a preaching vicar that needed to chill the fuck out on the religion and focus more on the situation at hand. And then it's discussed. ON A DISCUSSION FORUM.

Friggin hell - are you so dense?

When you're a vicar, and you're standing over a corpse, and there's a room full of people looking back at you, what is the matter at hand?

Sure, in my mind, I'm thinking "*groan*, here comes the priest, I gotta listen to how Jesus' saved us again," but I'm sure that I'll get through it without vomiting. I'll choke back the bile and stiffle the tears for a few minutes and then I'll give one mighty Hallelujah! when he thumps his fist on the pulpit and asks for a witness.

Can I get a witness, brothers!

I didn't read through ALL the posts,but i did read enough.

So i am sorry if this was already asked.


What i have the most trouble understanding,is if Halo doesn't believe in God and thinks religion is such a farce,why is he so threatned by it?


It just makes no sense.The uncomfortable feelings,the awkwardness,the feelings of anger for having to do something that isnt even real to you.

I have to agree with LL on this one.You are just looking for attention,because why else would you feel SOO strongly about something you dont even think is real?

*slumps his head against his desk*

'What i have the most trouble understanding,is if Halo doesn't believe in God and thinks religion is such a farce,why is he so threatned by it?'

- Not threatened. I don't go around the street and knock-out any preachers or religious people for fun. I don't go Nun-Hunting in my spare time. I don't burn bibles and chant while naked in the middle of the town centre. Well, ok, once. But I had NO clue what Irish tea was.
I do, however, find it frustrating that (and for the love of god - why am I repeating this to every new retard that stumbles upon this thread?) the vicar would come on so strongly and, IMO, almost exploit the ocassion to have a religious ramble.
No, dick, we're not all here because we love Jesus.
Some of us are here to say goodbye, without praising the lord.

And, kid, read the fuckiing sign on the door - NAG.

I felt totally uncomfortable about not being religious.

This is being threatned by it.

Would you be threatned if you child wanted your help writting a letter to santa clause.Would you refuse soley based on the fact that you dont believe in santa or what he stands for?

Of course you wouldn't because you KNOW santa isnt real (sorry if i ruined this for some)and arent threatned by the fact.

So in the same way,why would you be so uncomfortable and intimidated by a room full of people "Speaking" to God if you are agnostic and think its all just for show and a huge farce?


It makes no sense for anyone to be uncomfortable or intimidated by something they know isnt real.


It's ironic you call people retarded heh.

You're the one that go upset enough to write this thread about something(in your mind) that doesnt even exist.

...and the three puppies perished. I guess that's why they call it a "dog eat dog world," Bob. In other news, area man gets inexplicably upset when a priest includes religion in his funeral service. Film at 11.

QUOTE
----------------------------------------------------------------
(and for the love of god - why am I repeating this to every new retard that stumbles upon this thread?)
----------------------------------------------------------------

For the love of God? Shouldn't that have been.... for the love of a possible supreme omniscient being if he/she were to really exist... ?

/smartass off

Sorry... couldn't pass that one up

/smartass off
You are correct, that is being nit-picky and an obnoxious smartass, as thats a very common exclamation that really has no direct correlation to a belief in God these days. Whatsoever.

To touch on Xyln's question, you are proposing two very different situations, and here is why: The first:

Of course you wouldn't because you KNOW santa isnt real (sorry if i ruined this for some)and arent threatned by the fact.
This statement is a direct referrence to atheism, and not agnosticism. It is not an inability to conclude in any way, but a firm belief/knowledge that Santa does not exist.

The second:

So in the same way,why would you be so uncomfortable and intimidated by a room full of people "Speaking" to God if you are agnostic and think its all just for show and a huge farce?
This is a question regarding agnosticism, when he cannot know whether or not a deity exists, and as such does not like being urged with apparent overeagerness to participate in something he can't say he can believe in. Whether childish and immature or not, they are very different situations. However, I'd be interested in knowing what you are trying to discover from this: whether it is an attack on his decision (which is understandable, but wrong for the reason you gave [see above], or because you are somehow trying to prove some religious truth through his uncomfort... because if you are, by all means, please attempt to do so, as I think it would be quite fun... )

What can I say Halo... You're being a selfish bastard.

If the guy who died was religious and his family was, he can have as much religion as he wants... There are only so many things we have left to believe in anymore.

You're not the one dead or mourning.. Why the sob story. If it is going to comfort the mourning, think about it more like... Well, sitting through it will help those people.

I know if I was at a funeral for a loved one and saw some guy sigh and roll his eyes when the one giving the eulogy asked everyone to rise for a prayer, I would hate that guy for the rest of my life.

All im trying to understand is how can someone be so intimidated by something they believe doest exist.


This is a question regarding agnosticism, when he cannot know whether or not a deity exists, and as such does not like being urged with apparent overeagerness to participate in something he can't say he can believe in.

This is interestingly put.You make it sound like they put the sacrfical dagger in his hand and urged him unrelentingly to kill the goat.

He got nervous because he was expected to raise his arms.


or because you are somehow trying to prove some religious truth through his uncomfort..


To be bluntly honest,here is what i think happened.


He was in a very awkward situation.Instead of having the maturity to deal with the awkwardness gracefully,he instead decided not to stand or participate in anyway,and come here and lash out telling us all how retarded we are and how only stupid weak minded people believe in religion.


Almost as if he felt he needed to "save face".

You are correct, that is being nit-picky and an obnoxious smartass, as thats a very common exclamation that really has no direct correlation to a belief in God these days. Whatsoever.

You got the point, but missed it at the same time?

I don't think you've got a firm grasp on the situation. Halo is atheist, or agnost? Does he deny the remotest possibility that there is a "god" or "supreme being(s)", or does he admit a lack of knowledge on the existance of said being(s)?

You've got him pegged as agnost, but I thought he was claiming atheist.

Halo? Enlighten, if you will.

9 out of 10 dentists agree Halo is a dick

You've got him pegged as agnost, but I thought he was claiming atheist.
Aye, if such is the case then that is my bad. I was mislead by Xyln's post, as I only skimmed most of this I wasn't sure, but figured his typing of agnostic wasn't accidental, so my argument was based off this.

As far as him being annoyed by a request to participate in the religious aspect and that being a weakness of his, I think you should ask yourself if you would be annoyed (be honest) if you sat in a ceremony which was supposed to be about mourning somebody's passing, and instead all the person said was that there is nothing more for him and that he will pass into dust and decompose? Of course that might edge you, whether you admit it or not, even though you firmly believe contrary beliefs.

As far as him being annoyed by a request to participate in the religious aspect and that being a weakness of his, I think you should ask yourself if you would be annoyed (be honest) if you sat in a ceremony which was supposed to be about mourning somebody's passing, and instead all the person said was that there is nothing more for him and that he will pass into dust and decompose? Of course that might edge you, whether you admit it or not, even though you firmly believe contrary beliefs.



I would be annoyed as hell.

However,the difference in the situation is how I would react.

I would,like an adult,try to understand that the deceased did not believe in a higher being and just wanted a gathering of his closest friends to hang out and talk.

I would NOT run around crying and whining about how he is going to hell and how stupid and retarded everyone there was for not believeing in a higher being.



Hell,i get annoyed at a lot of things,but acting like a 5 year old isn't on my list of options of how to handle it.:rolleyes

Yegods, too many replies. Let me take this quote which deals with pretty much the rest..

'So in the same way,why would you be so uncomfortable and intimidated by a room full of people "Speaking" to God if you are agnostic and think its all just for show and a huge farce?'
It makes no sense for anyone to be uncomfortable or intimidated by something they know isnt real.
You're the one that go upset enough to write this thread about something(in your mind) that doesnt even exist."

- Here is exactly the element you're all too retarded to grip. I was not upset because of something that didn't exist, I was upset because of the pressure of participating in something I did not want to participate in. No matter how real or unreal it is. Simple fact is, the vicar was coming on too strong. To declare everyone to reach for the sky and praise the lord even if they weren't religious - is NOT being upset about something that didn't exist, it's about being upset at what I feel was a cheeky oppotunity to reel in the non-believers.

JUST because it was a religious ceremony, does not, IMO, give anyone a free pass to go over the top on the preaching meter.

As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, it was the wrong thing to do.
If we're stuck with so fucking limited choices in regards to these situations, of course non-believers will attend if it's the only chance to say good bye. To not acknowledge this is to be as retarded as Deaath or Palimax.
Therefore it IS wrong to come on so strong like that.
Devious, is what it is.

'If the guy who died was religious and his family was, he can have as much religion as he wants... There are only so many things we have left to believe in anymore.'

- Uhm, what? They weren't even that religious. They were the "I believe in God, but never stepped inside a church" type. And even still, I didn't say they COULDN'T believe in God. For fuck sake, read the posts people. I didn't even say people who do, are wrong. Ugh. It's like arguing with Crist0.

'You're not the one dead or mourning.. Why the sob story. If it is going to comfort the mourning, think about it more like... Well, sitting through it will help those people.
I know if I was at a funeral for a loved one and saw some guy sigh and roll his eyes when the one giving the eulogy asked everyone to rise for a prayer, I would hate that guy for the rest of my life. '

- Oh it's like a never ending nightmare. I really believe you can read Toothy, so by all means, go nuts.
You've been victim to LL's bullshit, as so many are. I did neither roll my eyes, storm around in a huff, sigh, sulk, or anything. I simply didn't praise the lord. You know, everyone here who regards my actions as rude are the ones who are incredibly closed minded. You are unable to grasp the fact that people can pay their respects in more ways then being religious. Just because I didn't lie to impress everyone - doesn't lead to disrespect or selfishness.

AND HERE IS THE FUCKING GOLD DUST!!

'He was in a very awkward situation.Instead of having the maturity to deal with the awkwardness gracefully,he instead decided not to stand or participate in anyway,and come here and lash out telling us all how retarded we are and how only stupid weak minded people believe in religion.'

- Why, oh why, DO RETARDS EVEN BOTHER?!?!!
Quote me where I said people are weak minded or retarded for being religious.
Please, quote me you fucking dipshit.
You people are trying to perform some sort of opressive Hitler regime. STAND AND PARTICIPATE OR DIE!!!!
I chose not to praise the lord, and in doing so, doesn't mean I was ungraceful or selfish. It means there are more things in life than religion. Your way isn't the right way. Fucking idiot.

'Halo? Enlighten, if you will.'

- You tell me. I don't believe in god, or a god. I don't believe in the oppressive nature of religion.

i just read the first post and heres my opinion:

its not all about you halo. If you want to have your funeral behind some baseball fields or just out in the woods without any religious affiliations, more power to you, but if one of your loved ones wants the funeral/wedding (pretty much the same thing) to be religious in nature, and you truly love this person/these people, then you will be happy for them and just go along with it for that day.

doesnt mean you have to like it, but if you truly care for others, then you can respect thier wishes and beliefs and not have to show your ass by not standing for the prayers.

'i just read the first post and heres my opinion'

- *smacks his head against his desk*
Oh for the love of a good woman.

You people are trying to perform some sort of opressive Hitler regime. STAND AND PARTICIPATE OR DIE!!!!
First things first.

I invoke Goodwin's LawProfessor Goodwin, U of I, in 1981 made the observation that Usenet discussions gravitate downhill.

He postulated that as the length of a discussion thread grows, the probability approaches one (1) that one participant will introduce the terms "Hitler" or "Nazi".

The custom has evolved that the first party to utter "Hitler" or "Nazi" has lost the discussion, and the thread terminates. Moving on...I chose not to praise the lord, and in doing so, doesn't mean I was ungraceful or selfish. It means there are more things in life than religion. Your way isn't the right way. Fucking idiot.You're going to emote some head banging or call us names again, but you invited this discussion, and it's the opinion of a lot of people (an opinion that it seems you invited) that in doing things the way you did, that you WERE ungrateful and selfish. This has evolved into a "was not" - "was too" discussion, and like a lot of other threads that you post under guise of "What do you think?" it just becomes a place where you can tell us all to go get fucked when we present an opinion contrary to yours. We get it. You think the Vicar was off his rocker for going over the top about religion, and perhaps stepped over the boundries the quasi-religious family should have set for his service, and we think you're a putz for just not taking it with a grain of salt and going with the flow. BFD. Jesus ain't my buddy either, but I still stand-sit-kneel-(mock)pray when I'm in church for <insert relative/friend>'s <event>.

How about you post more things for us to ponder and then tell us all off when we disagree.

Furthermore, I disagree with premise that this post is based on -- that there aren't other options for memorial services. Here, and I'm *certain* in Europe, there are dozens of memorial alternatives to "priest stands over coffin and talks about god."

Lacking a good secular alternative, expect to see the following things at your stock "christian" service:<!--EZCODE LIST START--><ul><li>The Bidding - being made welcome, invited to remember the deceased, give thanks for their life and grieve their loss. </li><li>The Word - what the Bible and church says about death, this can be expressed in prayers, readings from the bible or hymns. Also a summing of the life, work and personality of the deceased. </li><li>Prayer - all are invited remember their relationship to the deceased and review their own lives in relationship to God. Also there is usually reference to the death and resurrection of The Lord which expresses grief, sorrow for wrong-doing, remembrance, thanksgiving and the triumph over death. </li><li>The Commendation and Farewell - wish the soul of the deceased to find rest, peace and a life hereafter. Also an opportunity for the bereaved to say their last goodbyes. </li><li>The Committal - when the coffin is lowered into the earth for burial or move behind a screen at the crematorium</li></ul><!--EZCODE LIST END-->There's dozens of memorial/rememberance options that don't involve "guy preaching over corpse." As I'm sure you'll all be at my funeral (ha!), I promise liquor, hookers, and guns for all Europeans.

No, YOU SUCK!

QUOTE HALO, "No, YOU SUCK!"

This is the response of a semi-intelligent individual? Perhaps everyone was right in claiming that you were posting just for the attention. Loser.

Saberius

"Loser"

- Pot. Kettle. Black.

Argh.

My your responses have become even more witty Halo entertain me please.

My your responses have become even more witty Halo entertain me please.

Saberius

I just coughed up 6 pages of entertainment you cheeky twat.

So Halo this whole thread was for entertainment? Boohoo poor Halo felt threatened by a man espousing God's word at a religious function. Oh the word will end.

As for the cheeky twat retort, Halo can't you come up with anything remotely resembling a lucid thought or do you have your head so far up your ass that lucidity is a dream?

'So Halo this whole thread was for entertainment? Boohoo poor Halo felt threatened by a man espousing God's word at a religious function. Oh the word will end.'

- You have absolutely no clear why this forum exists, do you? Why this board is here? Why I arguing with you, someone who's been a member for a shorter time than Crist0's experienced puberty?


Run along, kiddo.

What's a clear? And why does being a member of this board constitute age? All I am trying to do is get to the reason you posted you sob story. Sounded quite, sad poor little Halo had to listen to a priest. Cry me a fucking river. I find it sad that you are so unsure of the existence or lack their of of God that you had to come here to cry about it. Perhaps you should be talking to a priest or is that very idea shocking? They speak of God because God is a permanence in their lives, much the same as you spout off your mindless drivel.

Saberius

Bloody hell.
Bible bashes repent!

Guys, enough with the Halobashing. If you look at the *very beginning* of this thread, he posed a sincere question (what do you do when confronted with such a situation?). From the available evidence, it sounds like he *did not know* that the ceremony, in both cases, was going to be particularly religious, since the individuals they were for were not particularly religious, and so was caught unprepared for the demands made of him.

People attending funerals/weddings, or going to church in order to support the ones they love, may not always support, or even be marginally comfortable with, some things that happen in those ceremonies, which especially in the case of funerals, come up unexpectedly.

Everyone has to act on their own conscience in such situations. Halo drew the line at standing and putting his hand in the air during part of the service. I personally draw the line at being forced to make any declaration of faith which would be, for me, false, although I will happily sit, stand, kneel, sing most hymns, and participate in most of a traditional Christian ceremony if I am present at one. It does say something about the type of church he went to that the mere act of not standing drew him abuse; in the American Episcopal church, folks tend to ignore such things :) . Such a response is far more typical of evangelical sects where one's level of committment to the faith is scrutinized and monitored, and I personally avoid all ceremonies that take place in these institutions (and in certain wings of the Catholic church as well) whenever possible.

Personally, had I been in his situation, I would have happily stood up (and bowed my head, out of respect) when asked, but I *wouldn't* have put my hand in the air or uttered a prayer which I found untenable. And if those transgressions were sufficient to draw attention to myself, as much respect as I had for the dead and their wishes, that would be unfortunate.

I don't think that Halo deliberately meant to, in this instance, make that ceremony 'about him'. It sounds to me like he acted on conscience and was unprepared for the reaction that ensued. He asked us here for some advice and, given Halo's somewhat 'spastic' reputation, too many folks were all too happy to jump on the bashing bandwagon...

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Autonomous Collective

'and, given Halo's somewhat 'spastic' reputation'

- That made me spit my water out :P

Sure, he didn't know the "religion level" of the ceremony. But one would never know that unless you're a regular attendee of the church. He did know it was at a church, so religion would most likely be involved somehow:


I'm not as stupid as to believe that a function at a church, for example, isn't going to be of a religious nature. Not at all. But why, WHY, do the people conducting the functions have to always infacturate it with religion?


The answer, as stated so many times is: Because it's a church.

Halo may well be overstating his reaction. But he did know the function was at a church and, as he often seems to do on the boards, he know what the right thing to do was and decided not to do that.

Better to reign in Hell,than serve in Heaven. - John Milton,Paradise Lost

"Better to wear a hat, then to be an "Asshat"
-L2

You witty thing, you.

Ugh... this thread brought back some memories.

Background: I was raised Irish Catholic. During high school, I split from the church and never went back. Up until my mid 20s, I considered myself "reformed Catholic" or perhaps Episcopal. I now consider myself Agnostic or Atheist, depending on the day.

Still... I carried coffins in Catholic ceremonies for several family members. Each time, I put on my black suit (weddings and funerals), dressed up and got on with it. One time in particular stands out.

My maternal Grandmother's funeral. Everyone in my family *knew* I wasn't a member of the church, knew I'd rather spit on a priest than go to church. Still, they asked me to carry the coffin- they needed strong hands, shoulders and lungs and I've got them.

The funeral included a high Catholic mass. Parts of the ceremony infuriated me (A priest talking about my Grandmother's life in Jesus... heh, yeah, right) and on the whole it wasn't a very comfortable experience.

But I stood, knelt and when the time came, carried my grandmother out into the sleet and put her in the ground.

Afterwards, all of my aunts and uncles and my mother came up to me and thanked me for what I did.

On a difficult day, a little self sacrifice on my part made the death of their mother a little more bearable. It was the least I could do, really.

Here's a little song, I wrote
I might want to sing it note for note
Don't worry, be happy
Every life we has some trouble
When you worry you make it double
Don't worry, be happy ho…
(Don't worry, be happy yeah)
Uh uh uh uh don't worry be happy….(4x)
I arco place who lay your head
Somebody came and took your bed
Don't worry, be happy
The land lord say your rent is late
Hey may have to lit the gate
Don't worry, be happy (look at me I'm happy)
Uh uh…,don't worry, be happy
(I give you my phone no.
When you worried call me
I make you happy) oh…
Don't worry, be happy
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style
In gumble gull to make you smile
But don't worry, be happy
Coz when you worry your face will frown
In that will bring everybody damn
So don't worry, be happy…(5x)

Now then, this song I wrote
I hope you learn it note for note
(Like good to children) don't worry, be happy
Listen to what I say in your life inspect some trouble
When you worry you make it double
Don't worry, be happy…(7 times…till fade)

Better to reign in Hell,than serve in Heaven.

"Better to wear a hat, then to be an "Asshat"

/sarcasm on
AAAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!! OMG you`re sooo funny,i bow before you`re comic talent.......
/sarcasm off

One of the two was a quote from a brilliant mind.Another came from an idiotic yank.I`ll leave it up to the folks at home to guess which one.

You stupid dumb fucker..
You quote Milton in a debate on atheism? And THAT quote especially, then proclaim his brilliance?
You are unread, uneducated, and out of your league. Fool.
Ill bet dollars to donuts you havent EVEN READ "Paradise Lost"
If you did, you would not have thrown in a totally out of context quote, that when put into context, completly destroys whatever marginal point you had in mind. I know you didnt, so I posted a reply as moronic and ridiculous as the person who throws out quotes with NO clue as to their origins or meaning... aka.. YOU
Time for your education.
You see, in the line you quoted from PL, Satan has just been cast down from heaven after losing the war with God.
He is still hot from the battle and Anger, Fury and Pride are consuming him. He is almost overcome with emotion by seeing the legions he led still following him, and looking to him as their last and only hope.
Thats in book 1.
However...
In book IV, while on a mountain top with his top General, Beelzebub, Satan expresses his sorrow and regret, his waning confidence, and his decision to become and create evil.
The first line is IMO the best in all of Miltons work...

Which way I flie is Hell; my self am Hell; [ 75 ]
And in the lowest deep a lower deep
Still threatning to devour me opens wide,
To which the Hell I suffer seems a Heav'n.
O then at last relent: is there no place
Left for Repentance, none for Pardon left? [ 80 ]
None left but by submission; and that word
Disdain forbids me, and my dread of shame
Among the Spirits beneath, whom I seduc'd
With other promises and other vaunts
Then to submit, boasting I could subdue [ 85 ]
Th' Omnipotent. Ay me, they little know
How dearly I abide that boast so vaine,
Under what torments inwardly I groane:
While they adore me on the Throne of Hell,
With Diadem and Sceptre high advanc'd [ 90 ]
The lower still I fall, onely Supream
In miserie; such joy Ambition findes.
But say I could repent and could obtaine
By Act of Grace my former state; how soon
Would higth recall high thoughts, how soon unsay [ 95 ]
What feign'd submission swore: ease would recant
Vows made in pain, as violent and void.
For never can true reconcilement grow
Where wounds of deadly hate have peirc'd so deep:
Which would but lead me to a worse relapse [ 100 ]
And heavier fall: so should I purchase deare
Short intermission bought with double smart.
This knows my punisher; therefore as farr
From granting hee, as I from begging peace:
All hope excluded thus, behold in stead [ 105 ]
Of us out-cast, exil'd, his new delight,
Mankind created, and for him this World.
So farewel Hope, and with Hope farewel Fear,
Farewel Remorse: all Good to me is lost;
Evil be thou my Good; by thee at least [ 110 ]
Divided Empire with Heav'ns King I hold
By thee, and more then half perhaps will reigne;
As Man ere long, and this new World shall know.

I know this fucking dumbass Aeshater is too stupid and lazy to ever read this fantastic work of art that is Paradise Lost..
But I highly recommend it to anyone, as one of the greatest Epics in the history of literature.
Miltons imagination is fascinating and boundless..

Take for example Satans incestuous relationship with his daughter Sin, the product of that Union becomes Death, who immediatly after being born, Rapes his mother. The product of this union is the creation of Hell Hounds, which use Sins womb as a Kennel.
Death, "frightening, shadowy figure, which makes even Satan wary in its presence. "Fierce as ten Furies, terrible as Hell," and wearing a crown, it wields a dart, threatens Satan with it, and speaks mockingly to him" Those Japanese Hentai have NOTHING on Milton.

Milton felt he was divinely inspired to create this book, so any attempt to label him on the side of Atheism is moronic and ridiculous.

btw..

www.literature.org/author...dise-lost/ (http://www.literature.org/authors/milton-john/paradise-lost/)

read it for free... you wont regret it.. It can be difficult, but sound it out and keep in mind its in prose form.. go slow, its really an amazing read.

I just dont understand the threat Kiv.

Like i can see if a Catholic would refuse to worship some other god, and would act like that..

But according to atheists.. its a meaningless ritual. A ceremony for show. Do or dont do it.. there is no conseqence either way.
Yet you celebrate christmas.. willingly take the gifts.. You dont refuse to buy goods from stores that hang "Merry Xmas" banners.
Thats why I find Halos act so self aggrandizing.

There are people who believe there is one true god, and following any other god is offensive, immoral and evil.

There are others who believe there are no true gods, and following any god is offensive, immoral and evil.

It is just a matter of one god or religion, more or less, you disrespect. Probably has the same psychologial roots even.

Some people believe they have The Answer.

And some of those people find people who disagree with The Answer to be offensive.