No, no, don't worry, it's not Iraq. It's that other major problem we always forget - Afghanistan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7211453.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7137041.stm

- Just what on earth *are* we to do there? Slow offensives and steadily increasing garrisons seem to produce sparse - if any - results. The country is ruled by a patch work of garrisoned provinces and tribal, warlord controlled enclaves, opium production is ungovernable (and unreplacable as a staple of income) and central authority non-existent.

No one, however, talks of pulling out like in Iraq. So if we're not going anywhere anytime soon - what on earth are we to do?

opium production is ungovernable (and unreplacable as a staple of income)

Actually, I recall reading somewhere that there had been some success in stopping opium farming, only to find it had been replaced with marijuana as a cash crop which continues to finance the Taliban. And, while the farmers continue growing crops to fuel terror and war, the rest of the world continues providing aid in the form of money and grain to those that are left wanting.

I don't believe we will ever be able to say we "won" in Afghanistan or Iraq; we removed the people in power we disagreed with, and tried to impose our ideas of how things should be done. We now have two fragmented countries that will require aid from us indefinitely, at a cost that too many families should never have had to pay.

With regard to the choice of the British envoy, a case can probably be made for both names put forth; in an attempt to further ease relations, it may be wiser to accede to the leaders in Kabul and try to foster stronger ties in the fight to better unite the country and continue the eradication of the Taliban fighters.

From what i've read the Afgahn situation will never be solved by force (like thats ever worked).
Basically we come in and say bad farmer how dare you grow poppies(sp?), burn the fields and offer nothing substansive in return.
The "tourists" come in and say "No shit!!! a whole field full??, my bro Ahmed will be by later with cash for ya."
If you where a dirt poor afghani farmer wich side would you fall on?

They farm opium and or marijauna because it puts food on their tables and gives them a much better than average income.

There has recently been an effort by the Marine Corp to convert these farmers to growing crocuses which provides Saffron, an extremely expensive spice, which rivals or exceeds the money that the other cash crops bring in.

So soon we can watch as politicians target Saffron in the war on terror.

Cooking with Saffron helps Islamic extremism!!!!!!!

Thats an interesting fact! Saffron is tasty.

Thats an interesting fact! Saffron is tasty.

Yes, she is! :p

Saffron used to be more precious in medieval times than money. It was a sign of prestige and power, nobility and princes used it to glaze their food to make it golden - which Islamic medical law said made you live longer.

Infact, some wages used to be paid in Saffron.

Yeah, ok, I'm a dork.

Anyway, the Afghans...

Anyway, the Afghans...


The Afghan situation presents a chronic problem, in that there will never be any meaningful change, due to there being nothing there of worth to anyone but the land to the Afghans. The fact that there was no uprising when the Taliban was using one of the wonders of the world for artillery practice tells me that these people are serious about only two things: their religion, and their personal/tribal vendettas. Having any pride in a cultural wonder that the world treasured means nothing, if the religious leaders decide it has to go.

It is time to stop feeding these people, and make the farmland there produce crops for the people, or nothing. Let the other Islamic states that are spending their oil wealth on ego-flattering crap start sharing the wealth with their brethren in the form of food aid; in the form of developing some kind of industry that can provide jobs as well as contribute to trade (Iran needs to look at this too, with their unemployment); and, the West needs to stop feeding, clothing, arming and training the people that eventually turn their sights on Western targets.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7219156.stm

- /bump

A 23 year old Afghani man sentenced (http://www.uscirf.gov/mediaroom/press/2008/january/012508_afghani_blasphemy.html) to death for "allegedly distributing literature deemed to violate the tenets of Islam." He supposedly wrote an article critical of the Koran's view of women.

A 23 year old Afghani man sentenced (http://www.uscirf.gov/mediaroom/press/2008/january/012508_afghani_blasphemy.html) to death for "allegedly distributing literature deemed to violate the tenets of Islam." He supposedly wrote an article critical of the Koran's view of women.

Actually, I saw on the news that it was an article written by his brother, and he thought it was a good enough piece of writing to share with others, to provoke some dialog. Guess using the brain to have debate and dialog was not part of the master plan of the Prophet.

Actually, I saw on the news that it was an article written by his brother, and he thought it was a good enough piece of writing to share with others, to provoke some dialog. Guess using the brain to have debate and dialog was not part of the master plan of the Prophet.

I don't think the prophet told people to kill someone for discussing Islam, even if it was critical of Islam.As a matter of fact, the Quran states that only Allah can pass judgement and punishment. That would be a sick tribal mentality that has been carried down for generations.

I don't think the prophet told people to kill someone for discussing Islam, even if it was critical of Islam.As a matter of fact, the Quran states that only Allah can pass judgement and punishment. That would be a sick tribal mentality that has been carried down for generations.

In that case, which I know is true about the islamic religion, why do so many muslims keep silent about the hijacking of the religion? Why do people like yourself defend the actions of the fanatics and not publicly put your foot down?

By not speaking out you give the impression that the actions of a few are sanctioned by all and that is cowardice at its worst.

Does anyone see how much danger the silence has caused?

In that case, which I know is true about the islamic religion, why do so many muslims keep silent about the hijacking of the religion? Why do people like yourself defend the actions of the fanatics and not publicly put your foot down?

By not speaking out you give the impression that the actions of a few are sanctioned by all and that is cowardice at its worst.

Does anyone see how much danger the silence has caused?

First of all, I am not muslim.

But there are tons of Muslims that speak out about the misuse of their religion for political aims. You just don't hear many of them because if you did you wouldn't call them Islamic terrorists anymore would you? You would just call them Terrorists, and goodness knows the image of Muslims blowing up buildings and buses are what you should be thinking about anytime you hear terror. Even though terrorism is and was also of major use by the Israeli's starting years ago, when some Israeli groups used to blow up muslims in their cars, homes, and gathering places.

I do not defend that actions of fanatics, I defend the actions of people who cannot defend themselves as they are not given a proper platform to plead their case.

What happened in Afghanistan with that man is sick and disgusting, but unfortunately it will not change. At least not for a long time.

But there are tons of Muslims that speak out about the misuse of their religion for political aims.

There aren't "tons" of muslims speaking out about misuse... because when they do, their fellow muslims sentence them to death. If they're outside the 3rd world, CAIR or some other muslim group marches them before the nearest hate speech counsil to silence them that way. And if that doesn't do the job, a fatwa and subsequent stake through the heart will do just fine.

You just don't hear many of them because if you did you wouldn't call them Islamic terrorists anymore would you? You would just call them Terrorists, and goodness knows the image of Muslims blowing up buildings and buses are what you should be thinking about anytime you hear terror.Call me crazy, but when the ratio of terrorist attacks in the world with a muslim involved drops below 99%, you may begin to have point.

Even though terrorism is and was also of major use by the Israeli's starting years ago, when some Israeli groups used to blow up muslims in their cars, homes, and gathering places. Blah blah "Israel does it, we can too!" is quite weak. Ask yourself, why did the Palestinians have to blow up an Egyptian wall to escape Gaza?

Blah blah "Israel does it, we can too!" is quite weak. Ask yourself, why did the Palestinians have to blow up an Egyptian wall to escape Gaza?

Because Gaza is a prison... Surrounded by walls on all sides.

Either that or die without food and supplies, what would you do?

And regarding the rest of your nonsense, I will not spend my time posting the same shit I posted before.

No, they had to break out because they were launching missles into southern Israel. Convenient that you ignore that completely.

Act like a criminal, be treated like a criminal.

No, they had to break out because they were launching missles into southern Israel. Convenient that you ignore that completely.

Act like a criminal, be treated like a criminal.

You believe in collective punishment?

I believe in closing off a crossing gate if a large collective of an enemy is attacking you across your border with rockets and have a history of bombing buses and shit in Israel yes. If the Palastinians cared about taking care of themselves and their families one iota, the situation over there would be vastly different.

I believe in closing off a crossing gate if a large collective of an enemy is attacking you across your border with rockets and have a history of bombing buses and shit in Israel yes.

What about denying innocent children and their families food and electricity, supplies that they need to live?

Should we build a wall around Compton?

I believe the Israelis have more of a duty to protect their own children and families than their duty to do the same for the Palastinians.

Should we build a wall around Compton?

You are an idiot with this comparison. Compton is part of the United States. The people there are Americans. They also aren't launching rockets at random targets.

I believe the Israelis have more of a duty to protect their own children and families than their duty to do the same for the Palastinians.

Rules of war = Occupier must provide for the occupied

You are an idiot with this comparison. Compton is part of the United States. The people there are Americans. They also aren't launching rockets at random targets.

The Palestinians are the original owners of the land...They are as much citizens as the Israeli's

Oh and those guys in Compton don't fire rockets randomly, they fire their guns randomly... same difference... dont get mad

Oh and those guys in Compton don't fire rockets randomly, they fire their guns randomly... same difference... dont get mad

It's not the same difference. There's a rather large difference in the collateral damage of a rocket and a pistol. And again, they are americans.

You are throwing out asinine wild comparisons with absolutely no bearing on the situation at hand simply because you have no real argument other than "I hate Israel, they are always wrong."

I will not spend my time posting the same shit I posted before.glad you admit it's all shit.

What about denying innocent children and their families food and electricity, supplies that they need to live?Then why was it Hamas who shut down their power grid even while Israel continued to supply the remainder of territory? And I asked, why was there an EGYPTIAN wall to be blown up? Or are the Egyptians in on the jewish conspiracy to suppress the poor people of Gaza as well?

glad you admit it's all shit.
Cute

Then why was it Hamas who shut down their power grid even while Israel continued to supply the remainder of territory? And I asked, why was there an EGYPTIAN wall to be blown up? Or are the Egyptians in on the jewish conspiracy to suppress the poor people of Gaza as well?

Israel stopped supplying the oil needed for their power plant, and cut power to Gaza. They not only closed the borders to Israel which i think is fine... They also make Egypt vow to keep their border closed or else Egypt will be responsible for them... which makes no sense. It creates a giant prison named Gaza.

Regardless of what the militants are doing, never is collective punishment that reaches children, the old, and the innocent the right action.

Try and pretend it is fine, You show your lack of humanity for the innocent who do not deserve punishment. Do you think it is fair that since Hamas the elected government decideds to partake in killing innocents, that the people should suffer?

Does this mean that we as Americans are fair game whenever our government kills an innocent? Just because we live here and some of us elected our officials?

The lack of defense put up for the Palestinian people is really astounding, and just shows the severe racism that has been slowly aloud to breed within Americans.

The lack of defense put up for the Palestinian people is really astounding, and just shows the severe racism that has been slowly aloud to breed within Americans.

You mean like the anti-semitism you continually show here or the thinly veiled racism you spewed with the Compton comment?

You mean like the anti-semitism you continually show here or the thinly veiled racism you spewed with the Compton comment?

It is not Anti Semetism to be against Israeli actions... Their are Muslims that are Semites...

Try and pretend it is fine, You show your lack of humanity for the innocent who do not deserve punishment. Do you think it is fair that since Hamas the elected government decideds to partake in killing innocents, that the people should suffer?


Do you think we should drop all sanctions we have imposed across the globe because it has the potential to harm children, old, and innocents?

Should we drop sanctions against North Korea? How about sanctions that were imposed upon Yugoslavia due to Milosevic? How about the sanctions that were originally put against Iraq after their invasion of Kuwait?

Do you think we should drop all sanctions we have imposed across the globe because it has the potential to harm children, old, and innocents?

Should we drop sanctions against North Korea? How about sanctions that were imposed upon Yugoslavia due to Milosevic? How about the sanctions that were originally put against Iraq after their invasion of Kuwait?

GAZA IS A PRISON... Sanctions? They cant even leave!

It is not Anti Semetism[sic] to be against Israeli actions... Their[sic] are Muslims that are Semites...

You didn't address your veiled racist comment against Compton.

GAZA IS A PRISON... Sanctions? They cant even leave!

Sanctions are punishment though, which is the word you used in your prior comment.

You didn't address your veiled racist comment against Compton.

I compared Compton to the Arabs... To show how making a wall around them sounds stupid because of the few that are criminals.

The United States isn't at war (declared or undeclared) against Compton.

The United States isn't at war (declared or undeclared) against Compton.

I understand that... but the point was in the actions. Palestinians are as much citizens of Israel as Native Americans are of America.

Native Americans don't have a recent history of trying to destroy everything American.

Native Americans don't have a recent history of trying to destroy everything American.

That wasn't the point...

That is the point though. Every time the Israelis declare peace with the Palastinians, some Hamas asshat tries to blow up a busload of INNOCENT ISRAELIS, yes that goes both ways.

If the Palastinians would actually work with the Israelis instead of trying to blow them up each time there's a deal made, the Palastinian people would have exponentially more freedoms. When the elected government of the Palastinian people are the organization that perpetrates the violence against Israel, it makes it that much harder to keep pounding out deals like those from the Camp David accords.

That is the point though. Every time the Israelis declare peace with the Palastinians, some Hamas asshat tries to blow up a busload of INNOCENT ISRAELIS, yes that goes both ways.

If the Palastinians would actually work with the Israelis instead of trying to blow them up each time there's a deal made, the Palastinian people would have exponentially more freedoms.

The people killing innocent Israeli's are criminals and wrong, but that doesn't justify punishing innocent people.

The people killing innocent Israeli's are criminals and wrong, but that doesn't justify punishing innocent people.

It's the government of the Palastinian people that are encouraging and in many cases perpetrating the violence against the Israelis. That's the biggest barrier that's facing peace between these groups of people right now.

It's the government of the Palastinian people that are encouraging and in many cases perpetrating the violence against the Israelis. That's the biggest barrier that's facing peace between these groups of people right now.

Ah, but how did this government come into power?

The people voted for them because Israel was punishing them and they felt they needed someone to fight for them. With the way both sides think, you are right, no peace anytime in the near future.

I am not goign to say that the Israelis hands are clean over the last 50 years of this conflict. I will say though, they are the side that actually seems to try and work the issues out and those efforts get sabatoged by Hamas. You won't agree with this sentiment, but I think the Israelis have a right to self preservation. I believe they have a right to protect themselves from an obviously hostile government in the Palastinian areas.

If Israel would pull back to pre 1967 borders, and give up the land they have occupied, I would stand completely with them against the Palestinians if Hamas continued launching rockets.

Maybe we should send in the army to go round up all the criminals so the innocent dont suffer. Or let the Isrealis do it.

First of all, I am not muslim.

But there are tons of Muslims that speak out about the misuse of their religion for political aims. You just don't hear many of them because if you did you wouldn't call them Islamic terrorists anymore would you? You would just call them Terrorists, and goodness knows the image of Muslims blowing up buildings and buses are what you should be thinking about anytime you hear terror. Even though terrorism is and was also of major use by the Israeli's starting years ago, when some Israeli groups used to blow up muslims in their cars, homes, and gathering places.

I do not defend that actions of fanatics, I defend the actions of people who cannot defend themselves as they are not given a proper platform to plead their case.

What happened in Afghanistan with that man is sick and disgusting, but unfortunately it will not change. At least not for a long time.


First son, let me give you a quick lesson about myself.

I come from a family that is very diverse in its religious beliefs, I grew up around just about every religion one can name.

I don't give a shit whether you are Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Catholic, Russian Orthodox or any other religion.

I do not subscribe nor have I ever subscribed to the rhetoric of the anti-muslim rhetoric. I am well aware of the religion and I am well versed in the Khoran so do not point your finger at me.

I think the whole Iraq war was a huge error and was perpetrated by the biggest bunch of criminals that have ever been in charge in this nation and back in 2003, and I dearly paid for it off of this board with people who have chosen to no longer be my friend.

I am well aware of the actions of the Israelis and I am also aware of the actions of the Palestinians. I disagree with both of their actions in most cases.

Do not group me or associate me with a bunch of chicken hawk criminal war mongers on any side.

First son, let me give you a quick lesson about myself.

I come from a family that is very diverse in its religious beliefs, I grew up around just about every religion one can name.

I don't give a shit whether you are Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Catholic, Russian Orthodox or any other religion.

I do not subscribe nor have I ever subscribed to the rhetoric of the anti-muslim rhetoric. I am well aware of the religion and I am well versed in the Khoran so do not point your finger at me.

I think the whole Iraq war was a huge error and was perpetrated by the biggest bunch of criminals that have ever been in charge in this nation and back in 2003, and I dearly paid for it off of this board with people who have chosen to no longer be my friend.

I am well aware of the actions of the Israelis and I am also aware of the actions of the Palestinians. I disagree with both of their actions in most cases.

Do not group me or associate me with a bunch of chicken hawk criminal war mongers on any side.

I apologize for my assumptions

'I believe in closing off a crossing gate if a large collective of an enemy is attacking you across your border with rockets and have a history of bombing buses and shit in Israel yes. If the Palastinians cared about taking care of themselves and their families one iota, the situation over there would be vastly different.'

- Oh what a load of shit. That is honestly worst then the extreme of saying "If Israeli's cared anything about their families..." Seriously, get a fact, and a history lesson.

Oh, and /bump

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7221485.stm

'I believe in closing off a crossing gate if a large collective of an enemy is attacking you across your border with rockets and have a history of bombing buses and shit in Israel yes. If the Palastinians cared about taking care of themselves and their families one iota, the situation over there would be vastly different.'

- Oh what a load of shit. That is honestly worst then the extreme of saying "If Israeli's cared anything about their families..." Seriously, get a fact, and a history lesson.

Oh wise one, explain to me what's so wrong with my statement. If Hamas, you know, the elected government of the Palastinians, focused more on the Palastinians than plotting terror against Israel, how would the situation over there not improve?

But but but the Israelis are evil and have better weapons. Something has to give here....quit bombing the Israeli's and the Israeli's will quit killing you.

Are the Israelis considered evil because they have superior weapons? Is the real goal of the Palestinians to bring down this whole conflict to a rock throwing fight?

Something else that has occured to me: Why don't the scouts from MLB and the NFL scout out some of these Palestinian kids? It takes a lot of nerve to stand in the path of a tank, and continue to throw rocks at it, accurately.

We might start seeing some Muslim names in the MLB and NFL soon.

We might start seeing some Muslim names in the MLB and NFL soon.

Aquib Talib of Kansas will be a first round pick in the upcoming NFL draft, that guy is a helluva cornerback.

edit to add:

Just pulled this from wikipedia, I know, that wikipedia, but it's just muslim athletes as a reference. It's not some kind of debatable dissertation really.

NFL:


Khalid Abdullah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_Abdullah_%28American_football_player%29), NFL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Football_League).
Rabih Abdullah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabih_Abdullah), NFL.
Fakhir Brown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fakhir_Brown), NFL.
Az-Zahir Hakim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Az-Zahir_Hakim), NFL.
Ahmad Rashad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Rashad), NFL.
Saleem Rashid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saleem_Rashid), NFL.
I saw no names listed for baseball unfortunately.

The NBA has(or has had) several muslims too:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kareem_Abdul-Jabbar), NBA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Basketball_Association).
Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Abdul-Rauf), NBA.
Tariq Abdul-Wahad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_Abdul-Wahad), NBA.
Shareef Abdur-Rahim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shareef_Abdur-Rahim), NBA.
Larry Johnson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Johnson_%28basketball%29), NBA.
Nazr Mohammed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazr_Mohammed), NBA.
Mehmet Okur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehmet_Okur), NBA.
Hakeem Olajuwon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakeem_Olajuwon), NBA.
Ahmad Rashad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Rashad), NBA.
Hedo Turkoglu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedo_Turkoglu), NBA.
Ersan Ilyasova (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ersan_Ilyasova), NBA
Rasheed Wallace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasheed_Wallace),NBA

Praise Allah!

If Hamas, you know, the elected government of the Palastinians, focused more on the Palastinians than plotting terror against Israel, how would the situation over there not improve?Focusing on Palestinian problems, providing social services and the like, helped Hamas become the elected government in the first place.

Focusing on Palestinian problems, providing social services and the like, helped Hamas become the elected government in the first place.

Right, and continued focus on attacking Israel has helped to further isolate them. Unfortunately to the people that elected them, they don't (or won't) see the counterproductive nature of the attacks.

and continued fucking over of the palestinians has done what to israel? thats right, nothing, because its election year and the US will continue to support israel without any questions asked.

Right, and continued focus on attacking Israel has helped to further isolate them. Unfortunately to the people that elected them, they don't (or won't) see the counterproductive nature of the attacks.For most of these people, the back-and-forth has been going on longer than they've been alive. There's no easily accessible starting point on which they can say, "Damn, if only we (or Hamas) hadn't done that, this whole mess could have been averted." It's not that surprising that Hamas' supporters overlook the obvious solution to what's been status quo for most/all of their lives. And, of course, people in power often ride to power on waves of zealous support for an extreme agenda -- keeping in power may not depend entirely on that support, but some Hamas certainly aren't going to take any chances.

The only clear lesson is that leveling even more Palestinian homes and infrastructure is unlikely to work in safeguarding Israel from organized attack. Past time for another approach.

The only clear lesson is that leveling even more Palestinian homes and infrastructure is unlikely to work in safeguarding Israel from organized attack. Past time for another approach.

On the same note though, lobbing even more missles into Israeli homes and infrastructure is unlikely to result in granting more freedoms to the Palestinians. Past time for another approach.

I will not spend my time posting the same shit I posted before.

My, if we could only believe that.

On the same note though, lobbing even more missles into Israeli homes and infrastructure is unlikely to result in granting more freedoms to the Palestinians. Past time for another approach.I'm not so sure. I think agreeing to the formation of a Palestinian state would then legitimize reprisal when internal forces of that state launch attacks. It generally falls to more organized and more dominant social orders to take these kinds of first steps. The punching bag isn't in position to call truce with the boxer.

Israel then has to understand that not every attack is related to Hamas (plenty of factions will fight Israel to the last breath). Hamas has to realize that a crackdown on their own crazies is necessary so that they can get to the business of building a functional state with some control over its destiny.

Hamas has to realize that a crackdown on their own crazies is necessary so that they can get to the business of building a functional state with some control over its destiny.

That comment to me is the key. Once that starts happening, Hamas can start to be a legitimate group with which the world can work with to ensure long term relative peace in the region.

I don't think Israel anymore (anymore being the keyword here) goes out of it's way to cause undue harm to the Palestinians. I think the Israel does much of what it does now out of self preservation, which is something I won't fault them.

Eh, Palestine doesn't really threaten Israel's existence -- I don't think "self-preservation" is the driving concern. There's the political necessity of doing something in response to attacks, and there's projecting the message that "we won't just sit back and take it." The former is going to happen because politicians like to be elected and re-elected. The latter isn't really necessary at this point. No one doubts that Israel has the ability and the willingness to respond to threatening entities.

Hamas and Palestine just seem beneath them, to me. I disagree that Israel doesn't go "out of its way" to cause harm unrelated to a specific attack. There's plenty of evidence otherwise (consider the Lebanon bombings, too), though much of their response is specifically targeted, of course.

The two sides need to talk, and they need to follow through on it. We as an interested party need to encourage dialogue and the following through, and be prepared to punish or reward both parties. The US needs to project to the Palestinian people that we're willing to follow through on rewards, too, to encourage them (and their political candidates) to really think about the course they want to set for the future, and who they want representing them along that course.

I agree whole heartedly with your final paragraph, but we know that won't happen at least until after election time. Our current administration won't work closely with Hamas, you and I both know that.

As far as self preservation, I don't talk about the ability of the Palestinians to take over Israel as much as I talk about Israel defending their innocents against missle attacks and bus bombings.

Yeah, and that's what Hamas needs to put a stop to. Good discussion.

The two sides need to talk, and they need to follow through on it. We as an interested party need to encourage dialogue and the following through, and be prepared to punish or reward both parties. The US needs to project to the Palestinian people that we're willing to follow through


If we can ever get political donations cleaned up, maybe we will be able to start putting some conditions on that humongous (relative to other nations) amount of aid we keep giving Israel, and this would be one of the best examples of being willing to follow through that we could show the rest of the region.

The question is, does Hamas really get anything out of stopping the violence?

If violence is the only thing the average Palestinian understands as representing him, then wouldn't Hamas be voted out of office?
Political parties like to stay in power, and are generally reluctant to stop doing whatever it is that put them there in the first place.

The question is, does Hamas really get anything out of stopping the violence?

If violence is the only thing the average Palestinian understands as representing him, then wouldn't Hamas be voted out of office?
Political parties like to stay in power, and are generally reluctant to stop doing whatever it is that put them there in the first place.

If they are voting on Hamas for security, it is because they truly believe that Hamas is fighting to protect them. They may be wrong, but what other force do they have to put their trust in?

If they recieved the same education as some of us, they would be alot smarter and would be able to deduce that Hamas is part of the problem.

News from the BBC today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7222194.stm

So yeah, that whole commit enormous numbers of forces and dollars to a proactive war in Iraq, while ignoring the known operational stronghold of the Taliban, Bin Ladin, and Al Qaeda, was *full* of win. And in the current climate, where we now neither have the resources nor the political will to address this issue, who will end up with 'mission accomplished' as it were?

I'd be surprised if Karzai's administration, even as the joke that it is quickly becoming, lasts the year.

/shakes head)

Regards,
Nydia

News from the BBC today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7222194.stm

So yeah, that whole commit enormous numbers of forces and dollars to a proactive war in Iraq, while ignoring the known operational stronghold of the Taliban, Bin Ladin, and Al Qaeda, was *full* of win. And in the current climate, where we now neither have the resources nor the political will to address this issue, who will end up with 'mission accomplished' as it were?

I'd be surprised if Karzai's administration, even as the joke that it is quickly becoming, lasts the year.

/shakes head)

Regards,
Nydia

If we pulled out most of our troops from Iraq, and put even half of them in Afghanistan we would be alot further in our goals of fighting terrorism.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7229634.stm#map

- Thought this was a good map/table for consultation about deployment (problems).

the West needs to stop ..... arming and training the people that eventually turn their sights on Western targets.

Yep, and we keep allowing them to come and have their babies here and go back to the middle east as soon as their baby's birth certificate arrives (few weeks) and passport, so since they are NATIVE americans they freely can cross the border in 18 years or less. Remember too...they were raised in the middle east too. You think they are Americans? Oh the webs we weave.......

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/pakistan_taliban_dc;_ylt=ApYALr_jTvqsjsUV3FCtnPEDW 7oF

QUETTA, Pakistan (Reuters) - Pakistani security forces wounded and captured a prominent Taliban commander on Monday near the border area with Afghanistan, Interior Minister Hamid Nawaz said.

Might not need to redeploy troops if the local tribesman could be brought into the picture.
Instead, their loyalties to hating each other is stronger than anything else, it would seem.

On a side note, it seems that whenever a leader in the Al Qaeda network is caught comisserating with the "enemy", they are kicked out.
Seems to me there should be some way to use this against the organization....