http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7548715.stm

- I'll be eager to see how Georgia reacts.

Go Russia!

Go Russia!


I take Georgia for $50!

You see, the war in Iraq has now made it so we can't even respond to an attack on Georgia, I hope Sanchek is OK, he lives in Georgia.

It's well known that Russia has long coveted our Peanut resources. look for the price of boiled peanuts to skyrocket.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/georgia-russia-has-invaded-and-we-are-under-attack-13934899.html?a=13934899

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4485527.ece

Clearly a war has kicked off.
Who's at fault? Does Georgia have a right to its offensive in Ossetian, or does Russia have a right to "protect" it??

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t257/evanluerding/0813putin475.jpg

The US and EU opened this can of worms when they recognized Kosovo as an independent state. Clearly Russia is simply responding tit for tat and I don't really blame them for doing so.

If recognizing Kosovo independence from Serbia was the right thing to do, we can't complain when South Ossetia demands the same from Georgia without being hypocrites. Russia is throwing this back in our face, and rightfully so.

Not that I'm a fan of Putin/Medvedev/Russia, but I can understand where they are coming from.

This isnt Russia being good guys.

This is about Pipelines. Russia wants to control all the oil flowing into Europe. The BTC Pipeline which passes through Georgia into Turkey (due to open in 2009) completely bypasses the Russian Lines. Israel is heavily in favor of it because it cuts the balls off Iranian regional economic influence and ensures that Israels oil supply will be open and flowing.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Btc_pipeline_route.png

Every single war we see in our lifetimes will be about oil, unless we break its stranglehold on us.

Agree with both Gulor and L2.

The fact that the whole fucking region is filled with unstable, warring splinter states is the biggest factor. There needs to be a powerful buffer in there, stable and strong. Otherwise Iran/Russia/Turkey will meddle endlessly and - as we are seeing - to ill effect.

I'm sure the pipeline is an extra incentive for Russia, but my understanding is that it does *not* pass through South Ossetia but rather just next to it. To gain control of it, Russia will need to annex most of Georgia once more, not just the two small chunks of Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Or make it part of a peace settlement.

Or make sure the puppet government dismantles it.

Or "Accidently" carpet bomb it.

According to Wikipedia, the BTC pipeline has been pumping oil for more than 2 years: The first oil that was pumped from the Baku end of the pipeline on May 10, 2005 reached Ceyhan on May 28, 2006.
Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan_pipeline)
And wow, it took a year to fill it.

One of the guys on NPR this afternoon claimed that there were less than 50,000 people living in South Ossetia and that about 90% of them hold Russian citizenship. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_(2008)) claims that BBC says there are about 70k people living there, and more than half of them have taken Russian citizenship.

Supposedly Georgia had 2k troops in Iraq and pulled half of them out today.

The folks in South Ossetia claim they want to join their compatriots in North Ossetia. This can of worms, as Gulor points out, is already open and fugly. A future conflict that has this same signature will be when the Kurdish regions of Iraq (they call themselves "southern kurdistan") try to "encourage" their northern compatriots to break "northern kurdistan" (also known as east Turkey) away from Turkey.

Georgia is asking for US help... Uh oh!

My personal opinion? Stay the hell out of it.

These little ass country's think they can count on their allies so they write checks their asses cant cash, and then they look to us for help?

Russia is going to take care of Georgia, and not a damn thing we do will make them stop. If anything, we create an enemy out of a country we do not want to have as an enemy in any future conflict we may have in the Middle East.

There's a good chance we're already there, and have been:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25684774/

Georgia is asking for US help... Uh oh!

My personal opinion? Stay the hell out of it.

These little ass country's think they can count on their allies so they write checks their asses cant cash, and then they look to us for help?

Russia is going to take care of Georgia, and not a damn thing we do will make them stop. If anything, we create an enemy out of a country we do not want to have as an enemy in any future conflict we may have in the Middle East.

This is a job for NATO!

Nah - it's a job for the EU.

But we don't have the infrastructure inplace for this kind of response yet. We can talk big, but at the end of the day, besides a small, rapid force, we can't deploy much muscle.

Especially when we depend on Russia for 85% of our natural resources.

Nah - it's a job for the EU.

But we don't have the infrastructure inplace for this kind of response yet. We can talk big, but at the end of the day, besides a small, rapid force, we can't deploy much muscle.

Especially when we depend on Russia for 85% of our natural resources.


Which is why I see it being deferred to NATO for resolution. Isn't this exactly the kind of scenario that NATO was created for, in the first place?

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L9618164.htm

color me surprised.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7552012.stm

- Georgia's evacuated, now it seems Russia is in control of S. Ossetia.

I have also been hearing that Georgia is no longer able to fly... Russia has apparently destroyed all runways and possible takeoff/landing positions. Not confirmed 100%

'GEORGIA
Total personnel: 26,900
Main battle tanks (T-72): 82
Armoured personnel carriers: 139
Combat aircraft (Su-25): Seven
Heavy artillery pieces (including Grad rocket launchers): 95

RUSSIA
Total personnel: 641,000
Main battle tanks (various): 6,717
Armoured personnel carriers: 6,388
Combat aircraft (various): 1,206
Heavy artillery pieces (various): 7,550
Source: Jane's Sentinel Country Risk Assessments'

- It wouldn't take long to destroy Georgia's air power :P

We all have seen Putin's intellect and ability to study and learn from events on the international stage, during his tenure as Russian President. We are now seeing the beginning of the return to greatness that Putin was preaching to the youth of Russia, and I firmly believe this is just the opening salvo; how many other countries in the region were once a part of the USSR?

Putin is the Russian Cheney, now.

The Russians are hitting them with just about everything they have from infantry to strategic bombers.

http://www.twincities.com/allheadlines/ci_10154141?nclick_check=1


From a tactician's perspective, Russia has made an excellent move. Georgia has been one of the staunchest allies of the U.S. in the region, and now they are going to see what rewards that fealty will bring. If the U.S. sides with Georgia they face losing Russian support in the fight to stifle Iran's nuclear program, and if they do nothing but wring their hands and plead with Russia to stop the aggression they will be demonstrating to Georgia that there are no long-term benefits to an alliance; in either scenario Russia ultimately is able to demonstrate to Georgia and the world that they are back as a major power.

Putin is doing a grand job of showing the former countries of the USSR that the promises and sweet talk of the West are little more than the lines of a suitor seeking a one night stand; but, for a lasting relationship they would do better allying themselves with Russia.

It appears that Ukraine is stepping up rhetoric and threatening to stop the Russian Navy from going back into Sevastopal. Ukraine is an ally of Georgia and also looking to join NATO.

If they step in militarily, it will be a major game changer to say the least.

It appears that Ukraine is stepping up rhetoric and threatening to stop the Russian Navy from going back into Sevastopal. Ukraine is an ally of Georgia and also looking to join NATO.

If they step in militarily, it will be a major game changer to say the least.

Ukraine will simply get nuked... do you remember Russia's announcement a few months ago that Nuclear weapons are always on the table as an offensive and first strike scenario for Russia?

/Shudder ... And to think it's China I've been watching closely lately.

Ukraine will simply get nuked... do you remember Russia's announcement a few months ago that Nuclear weapons are always on the table as an offensive and first strike scenario for Russia?


Never gonna' happen.

The introduction of nuclear weapons into a regional conflict such as this would be an open invitation to the EU and NATO and OSC to engage in all out warfare, and one that I do not believe would be turned away from, if for no other reason than to stop Russia from expanding it's borders further into the EU/NATO sphere of influence.

Also, that would defeat the purpose of Putin demonstrating to the world that Russia has a powerful military. If the Ukraine does indeed follow through with it's stated intentions I believe Russia would welcome the opportunity to further showcase the military strength it has built up the last several years with oil profits.

Never gonna' happen.

The introduction of nuclear weapons into a regional conflict such as this would be an open invitation to the EU and NATO and OSC to engage in all out warfare, and one that I do not believe would be turned away from, if for no other reason than to stop Russia from expanding it's borders further into the EU/NATO sphere of influence.

Also, that would defeat the purpose of Putin demonstrating to the world that Russia has a powerful military. If the Ukraine does indeed follow through with it's stated intentions I believe Russia would welcome the opportunity to further showcase the military strength it has built up the last several years with oil profits.

Russia however will not risk a loss in my opinion... Therefore if it is a remote possibility that they will lose, Nukes will fly

Ukraine has quite a large and well equipped military which would make it a huge war. I agree with Byl on the nuke issue, it would be a suicide move and one most definately not worth any gain in Georgia or Ukraine by Putin.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7552323.stm

- Russia is ignoring Georgia's suing for peace, and is continuing to bomb the hell out of military targets across Georgia.

Can't imagine this can drag on indefinately. Something must happen soon.

Yeah, I don't see Russia stopping for anything other than the complete and unconditional surrender of Georgia. Along with a number of "war criminals" to be dragged back to Rodina for show trials and executions.

Saakashvili threw the dice and he lost. :spade

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7553144.stm

- Well now here comes the tough talk from Cheney and interference from the EU.
If Russia doesn't stop, I can't help but think this thing is going explode.

Wouldn't it be ironic, we manage to make it through the cold war without ever going over the edge into actual war, to only have it all go to shit over this.

I don't know about ironic, I'm thinking more like a damn shame.

Heh, the US transported Georgian troops deployed in Iraq, back home to Georgia.

Russia no happy :P

McCain's foreign policy advisor is a lobbyist for Georgia, so I expect we'll see more pro-Georgia/anti-Russian "policy."
http://exiledonline.com/georgia-gets-its-war-onmccain-gets-his-brain-plaque/
Now bush and cheney have come out on the side of Georgia - too little, too late.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7553144.stm

Of course.

I'm sure there are a lot of PNAC types hoping we can cause a repeat of the Soviet-Afghan war here.

This isnt a war of occupation. I highly doubt Russia will make the mistake of trying to annex Georgia.

This is a war of domination. Cripple Georgia. Make it serve as an example. Force it into crushing peace terms.

This isnt a war of occupation. I highly doubt Russia will make the mistake of trying to annex Georgia.

This is a war of domination. Cripple Georgia. Make it serve as an example. Force it into crushing peace terms.


And, as I previously mentioned, it is about demonstrating what the monies from the sale of Russian oil have accomplished in rebuilding the Russian military. A resounding defeat of Georgia will be used to rally Russian citizens and increase the national pride that Putin was working so intently on the last few years of his Presidency.

We may hear more calls for a fight with Ukraine from the citizenry than from the military if Putin's media spins it right. I believe Georgia is simply the preview of coming attractions.

Afraid Byl is right. Nothing compels a bully to do its thing more than the smell of fear. Russia invaded Georgia because they could, and they'll do it again unless someone makes it more trouble than its worth.

And what's the most telling thing of all this?

The utter impotency of the West to protect a sensitive ally.

Edit: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7554507.stm

- Holy shit, Russia's advancing into Georgia from Abkhazia and there are reports they've even occupied Gori. How long before Tbilisi falls?

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44912000/gif/_44912891_georgia_v4_466.gif

I find it interesting that people keep painting Russia as the original aggressor here, when that wasn't the case.

Georgia had already killed over a thousand in South ossetia before Russia even got involved.

Sorry, but Bush and Cheney crying about an ally doesn't make said ally in the right. Go Russia!

I find it interesting that people keep painting Russia as the original aggressor here, when that wasn't the case.

Well, it is said that Georgia had gone into Ossetia, however I find it quite fascinating how fast the Russian response was, they were on top of that almost instantly which pretty much says they were mobilized to do this pretty far ahead of time.

Well, it is said that Georgia had gone into Ossetia, however I find it quite fascinating how fast the Russian response was, they were on top of that almost instantly which pretty much says they were mobilized to do this pretty far ahead of time.

I would say it was no surprise to either side.

We had our troops in Georgia, preparing them to attack. Israel was there advising Georgia on how to attack. Georgia had turned off water services to South Ossetia for weeks.

To anyone directly involved in the region, it was probably obvious that an attack was coming. So, the Russian response was probably cocked and loaded long before Georgia started shelling South Ossetia.

I would say it was no surprise to either side.

We had our troops in Georgia, preparing them to attack. Israel was there advising Georgia on how to attack. Georgia had turned off water services to South Ossetia for weeks.

To anyone directly involved in the region, it was probably obvious that an attack was coming. So, the Russian response was probably cocked and loaded long before Georgia started shelling South Ossetia.


I'll go with that...

And what's the most telling thing of all this?

The utter impotency of the West to protect a sensitive ally.


Other than threatinging military intervention and escalating this into potential global conflict what options exist?

We are relegated to sitting on the sidelines wringing our hands and shouting "bad Putin, bad boy".

Yea.

Because its really not our problem. We can't solve the worlds problems, or stick our noses in every time something goes wrong.

Georgia made a blunder and is getting fucked up because of it. That is the way of the world. Russia isnt going to try to annex or occupy Georgia. They are just going to really beat the snot of them.

Georgia was stupid and careless. This is what happens.

Given the circumstances, it appears that the US and Israel actively encouraged (and helped) Georgia to execute the first strike. I don't think it was nearly as random as Georgia blundering on their own.

Why anyone would listen to the Bush Administration at this point is beyond me.

Georgia taking advice from that bunch is like taking boating advice from the Captain of the Exxon Valdez.

The ploy has worked extremely well so far. Almost everyone I've talked to about it sees Russia as the aggressor and Georgia as the poor, defenseless victim.

Russia's response has certainly been disproportionate, but it is the height of hypocrisy for us to condemn them for that after how we've acted post 9/11.

It'a not hard to paint Russia as a bad guy.

http://www.newscopy.org/images/boris_and_natasha_1.jpg

http://www.forum-auto.com/uploads/200409/casser_voix_aahhhh_1094841749_dolph_m176.jpg

All of these Ho's (http://www.happierabroad.com/Hall_of_Villains.htm)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2a/Miracle_on_Ice_-_Eruzione_goal_celebration.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/Ivan_the_Terrible_(cropped).JPG/479px-Ivan_the_Terrible_(cropped).JPG

http://www.geocities.com/john_rambo_site/Kourov.jpg

http://ruthlessreviews.com/80saction/pics/reddawn1.jpg

Even a Bush could do it!

With the exception of the Bush/Cheney comments, I have not seen Russia really getting painted as the bad folks here, with the exception that there response has been way disproportionate.

I am seeing the varied regional leaders all keeping a fairly diplomatic tone in their reactions; they are asking for territorial boundaries to be respected, and for a cease fire and talks.

And as a correction, Tom Ridge at this moment is saying on MSNBC that Russia invaded, which was not the case. Driving the Georgia forces back out of S.O. would not constitute invasion, as they were "protecting their citizens"; but, the aerial attacks on cities and bases substantially further from the S.O. 'boundary' could be construed as an act of disproportionate aggression.

With the exception of the Bush/Cheney comments, I have not seen Russia really getting painted as the bad folks here, with the exception that there response has been way disproportionate.

I am seeing the varied regional leaders all keeping a fairly diplomatic tone in their reactions; they are asking for territorial boundaries to be respected, and for a cease fire and talks.

And as a correction, Tom Ridge at this moment is saying on MSNBC that Russia invaded, which was not the case. Driving the Georgia forces back out of S.O. would not constitute invasion, as they were "protecting their citizens"; but, the aerial attacks on cities and bases substantially further from the S.O. 'boundary' could be construed as an act of disproportionate aggression.

Russia is deep in Georgia now, that's an invasion.

Russian media said that georgia's president attempted to commit suicide.

Was it Pravda (http://english.pravda.ru/)?

They are kind of like Faux News on Steroids.

http://news.mail.ru/politics/1936745/et

http://life.ru/news/30122

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00043/cartoon110808_43676a.jpg

http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/preview/%7B918bb6cd-b61d-42b4-9ff1-c33aa94c173e%7D.gif

Here is the Russian Army, moving on Gori

eNM2p5IwyGw


Russian/Georgian gunfight

7tHWMRpSe_k

Interesting information i got from other forum

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080811...restusmilitary (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080811/pl_afp/georgiarussiaunrestusmilitary)

by Jim Mannion

WASHINGTON (AFP) - The US military was surprised by the timing and swiftness of the Russian military's move into South Ossetia and is still trying to sort out what happened, a US defense official said Monday.

Russian forces surged into the breakaway region last week after weeks of clashes, threats and warnings between Tblisi and Moscow which culminated August 6 in a two-day Georgian offensive into South Ossetia.

That the two countries were on a collision course was no surprise to anyone, but the devastating Russian response was not expected, officials said.

"We were tracking it earlier in that week and we knew that things were escalating," said a military official, who asked not to be identified. "I can tell you it moved quicker than we anticipated that first day."

But how it unfolded is still unclear, clouded by conflicting claims from both sides.

"I think a lot of what you're asking needs to be ironed out," said the official.

"Some of these little issues are definitely still big questions in this event -- What was the intent? Who started it? Why did they start it? And why weren't they prepared to defend what they started?"

President George W. Bush, who urged Moscow to cease fire and return to pre-August 6 positions, charged in a televised statement that Russia's intention appeared to be depose Georgia's democratically elected president.

But the extent of the Russian operation remained unclear to US officials on Monday.

Georgian officials said Russian troops had moved out of South Ossetia into Georgia proper, occupying the city of Gori while Georgian troops were retreating to the capital.

But US defense officials said they were unable to corroborate the Georgian claims.

"We don't see anything that supports they are in Gori," said a defense official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "I don't know why the Georgians are saying that."
"That assessment is ongoing," said Bryan Whitman, a Pentagon spokesman.

The United States has among the most powerful tools for monitoring brewing conflicts, from spy satellites to reconnaissance aircraft and drones capable of scooping up radio signals or capture real-time images of forces on the ground.

But the extent to which they were trained on this remote conflict before it turned violent is not known.

The Russians, however, warned on August 3 of a growing threat of "large scale military conflict" between Georgia and South Ossetia.

The State Department issued a mild statement on August 5 urging Moscow to refrain from provocative actions, but gave no hint that it was aware that military action either by Georgia or Russia was in the offing.

Officials have suggested the fighting was not seen as an immediate threat, in part because there were only about 95 US troops and 35 civilian contractors in the country training Georgian troops for Iraq. And they were not near South Ossetia.

Some 1,650 US troops conducted a joint exercise with the Georgian military in mid-July. But they were out of the country when the hostilities flared.

At around the same time, the Russian military deployed 8,000 troops to the North Caucases for counter-terrorism exercises that Moscow said were unrelated to the tensions with its southern neighbor.

The US defense official said about 8,000 to 10,000 Russian troops have moved into South Ossetia. They also have flown SU-25, SU-24, SU-27 and TU-22 fighters and bombers during the campaign.

But the official said there was no obvious buildup of Russian forces along the border that signaled an intention to invade.

"Once it did happen they were able to get the forces quickly and it was just a matter of taking the roads in. So it's not as though they were building up forces on the border, waiting," the official said.

"What are their future intentions, I don't know. Obviously they could throw more troops at this if they wanted to," he said.

I think the first highlighted portion is about as close as you are ever going to hear from an American official that Georgia is the instigator of this current conflict.

From the poster on other forum



By - FugitiveVisions -

What the second highlighted portion also says a lot here. IMO, it's not out of the question that the Georgian president may be trying to bait the Russians into occupying Gori and beyond in order to bring about a Western reaction. In fact, it appears that he is, and has been the second that the war started, doing his best impression of Kosovo in trying to coax a Western intervention. I'm not a psychologist but this guy seems a little unbalanced and out of touch, almost on the verge of being suicidal in some of his actions, abeit highly choreographed actions.

From now on, I will view any claims that come out of his government as deceitful until proven otherwise. And I still think that a full russian invasion is not going to happen.

This is scary...

The Beginning of the Summer Olympics and the Third World War


The Olympics are what is right about the world. On this last Friday, the eighth day of the eighth month of the eighth year of the new millennium we witnessed a fantastic spectacle, a peaceful gathering of the many nations of our small blue planet; a competition of the best young athletes from all over the world. The Olympics make us proud to be humans; proud to be citizens of Earth.


Sadly on this same day, we saw what future historians will count as the day that the Third World War began. It was designed this way, by the evil people who worked hard to begin the war under the cover of the Olympics.


We all like to be right, myself included, but sometimes it is not so wonderful. I have written a series of articles over the last few weeks on the coming nightmare centered on the neo-con grand strategy. I predicted the outbreak of hostilities in Georgia and Russia and said that there is a strong link between what is happening there and to what is about to happen against Iran. I said that the war in Georgia was intended as a strategic distraction for Russia as America, the United Kingdom, France, Israel, and others assemble their large naval blockade of Iran, but a strategic distraction that would backfire. I also described the massive US Naval armada headed for Iran; the make-up of this extremely large and powerful force is as I described it several days ago (this has now been confirmed by Israeli sources).


As Russian troops and air force pilots, and thousands of Russian civilians, die in combat in Europe for the first time since 1945, only miles from their homeland (on land that was part of the Russian Empire and Soviet Union for centuries), the sleeping Russian Bear has been awaken and filled with a terrible resolve. The fact that only within the last few weeks have the 1,000+ American Marines, sent in to train the Georgians for this very war, left is not overlooked by the Russians. The fact that (according to DEBKE the well connected Israeli strategy and military site) over 1,000 Israeli “mercenaries” are actively engaged in combat with the Russian Army on the side of the Georgians is also not overlooked. The fact that the American neo-con administration and the Israelis have been engaged in a furry of advanced arms sales and deliveries over the last year, and that these weapons are killing Russians on their historic territory, is not overlooked. The fact that the Bush administration tried very hard to get its European NATO partners to accept Georgia as a NATO member without success (too many European nations saw the trap and smelled a rather large rat), and the fact that had this neo-con gambit succeeded NATO would be in war against Russia now ~ this also is not overlooked by the Russian bear. The fact that the Georgian Defense Minister is a ‘former’ Israeli and many current and retired Israeli generals are deeply involved in Georgia is also not overlooked by the Russian bear.


The American supported, Israeli commando staffed, attack on the civilian population of South Ossetia ~ where Georgian troops conducted volley-fire artillery cleanings of a number of villages and settlements housing Russian citizens, destroying people’s homes and killing 1,500 civilians (and killing 10 lightly armed Russian peacekeeping troops and wounding 30) in the opening stages of the attack ~ is also not overlooked by the Russians. This is the Russian 9/11.


While the Russian 9/11 was taking place, the massive American/British/French naval armada was/is assembling to begin the blockade of Iran (a blockade is considered an act of war under international law), and the European Union, acting under cover of the media coverage of the Olympics, has formally approved a blockade of Iran (not using the word blockade but establishing tough new sanctions on Iran with cargo inspections and intercepts ~in other words a BLOCKADE). Neither Russia nor China, which gets a large percentage of its oil and natural gas from Iran, are willing to allow this to happen. The strategic distraction for Russia is not going to work; nor is China going to allow its distraction ~ the hosting of the Olympics ~ to rob it of its strategic source of oil and natural gas, so necessary for its economy.


Grand strategy is very interesting and complex. It is rather like space chess or space checkers ~ played on several levels. However, in real life grand strategy, the various levels have players that are often not aware of the nature of the game on the level above.

http://europebusines.blogspot.com/20...mpics-and.html (http://europebusines.blogspot.com/2008/08/080808-beginning-of-summer-olympics-and.html)

Well, it is said that Georgia had gone into Ossetia, however I find it quite fascinating how fast the Russian response was, they were on top of that almost instantly which pretty much says they were mobilized to do this pretty far ahead of time. There were already a number of Russian troops in South Ossetia as "peace keepers." They were invited by the predecessor to Saakashvili (who Saakashvili overthrew in a coup) and the Russians stayed. Of course, Yeltsin was the Russian president at that time.

Of the 1000 or so people killed by Georgian shelling on Friday in Tskhinvali, many were Russian soldiers.

Saakashvili really screwed the pooch on this one. He deserves just as much sympathy as Sadam Hussein got for invading Kuwait.

And this isn't the first war they've had in the region over the same issues:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991%E2%80%931992_South_Ossetia_War (the 1991-1992 war)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_War (the current one)

It is amazing to me to see the reaction most of you post Cold war kids have to the current developments.

Yes I know ya'll are oooo so intelligent ( and spoondfed) and ooo so well know the Russian plans.

This shit is exactly the game plan of the early cold war. Russia will expand, now I wonder at the so called Islamic threat as more than a red herring.

Puttin had his horses in play early, he's a genious and we're going to pay unless we shore up our defenses. aka they are not here to play pretty with us, if China and Russia shore up their game we lose atm.....

Grats

I don't think many people are painting Russia as the original aggressor San, if you re-read the responses. But merely as aggressive in the relative size of its reaction - very disproportionate.
Obviously Russia has an alternative end-game here other than removing Georgia from Ossetia. They want to break Georgia, scare the ex-soviet republics, and flex their muscles. This has been a blinding and obliterating strike - and IMO, they succeeded.

Yea...

Russia was waiting and hoping Georgia would be dumb enough to do this. Im sure they did their fair share of provoking the issue as well, and probably spend some time feigning disinterest.

The Russian advance is very fast, from a number of directions. Although it isnt as fast as our blast through Iraq.

Its an interesting dynamic. We have zero leverage on Russia. They supply so much of Europe with gas that the very thought of sanctions is laughable. War against Russia is not an option. Period. Those dont end well.

Anyway. Here is my nightmare Scenario.

Russia, China, Pakistan and Iran form an alliance. They call it "Asian Security Alliance" or whatever.
Phase One: Hezbollah and Hamas have a sudden massive influx of very modern and advanced weaponry. Sophisticated Anti Tank and Aircraft. New and Upgraded small arms. Advanced Mortars and even some artillery pieces. Heavy bombing and border attacks start on Israel from Lebanon, sucking Israel into launching an offensive. Waiting are the new weapons and Hezbollah ranks swelled with Revolutionary Guard and using Russian/Chinese satellite intelligence. The losses make the Israeli losses from last summer look like nothing.

Phase 2: Iran blocks off the Persian Gulf for oil transport. Venezuela nationalizes the rest of its oil and refuses to sell to western interests. Russia cuts off the oil supply to Europe. Oil skyrockets to about $300/bbl.

Phase 3. A massive increase in attacks in Iraq from Shia militias. From out of nowhere and without warning a massive Tet Offensive like attack begins in Iraq. Heavily armed and massive in numbers, attacks all over Iraq on US and Allied forces inflict heavy casualties. This happens at the same time that similar events happen in Afganistan.

Phase 4. China moves on Taiwan, Russia moves on Ukraine, and Pakistan moves on Kashmir.


Game, Set, Match.

The Asian Alliance offers peace terms the next day promising no further aggression if Western Powers simply stay out of it. Additionally they offer an immediate resumption of oil production.

We either accept and cede the American century or we institute a draft and strap on our war boots.

I dont think any of that will happen. But its one of those Tom Clancy inspired "What If" flights that situations like this make me think of.

A couple of holes in that picture that would quickly turn the table on the "Asian Alliance"...

Phase 1: Israel can annhialate any two of the next biggest Arab powers, advanced weaponary or not. Can you say Nukes? Israel would go out nuking before it ever submitted to Arab aggression. Little real manpower could come from Iran, as the closure of the Gulf would create a retliatory naval blockade with merely a few Royal Navy cruisers and one American carrier. With 150,000 Western troops stationed in Iraq, and Turkey an EU applicant, little can be done over-land in any numbers worthy of help.

Phase 2: Obviously our weakest spot - oil. But to counter this Saudi Arabi, as has been seen, can ramp up production, kuwait would do the same, being a staunch ally, and countries like Norway and Great Britain could open up the massive reserves of the North Sea, and underdeveloped places like Nigeria could become a gold-field of investment to open up their new production. All of this is not feasible right now, but there's nothing like a war to create these kind of radical measures. Remember, most members of the "Asian Alliance" depend heavily on revenues from oil export, they would in effect be cutting off their noses to spite their face. And when you're fighting against the modern capitalist markets of the West, you need a strong and steady revenue to fight a war of attrition.

Phase 3: The most potentially problematic point of the scenario. If this happened, I see the interior garrisons of both countries being focused on the borders with Iran, an invasion being launched by all deployments, and once across in Iran, being supplied by air and sea, abandoning bases in Iraq and Afghanistan and ending the occupations (returning, of course, after the Great War).

Phase 4: The taking of Taiwan would not be permitted by giants like Japan and South Korea. China is in a delicate phase, it's a growing economy constantly in threat of imploding over its own spectacular growth. A war with the EU and America, it's biggest markets, would cause economical catastrophe. Furthermore, taking Taiwan in itself would be hurrendously costly.
You forget about the EU. As a supra-national state, it has a decentralised, weak military arm. But as independent nations, no European country would stand by as Russia made such a dash for the Ukraine. Aggregately, combined European armies dwarf Russia - whose military might depends on the sale of natural resources to exactly those European nations it would be provoking. UK, France and Germany alone have the military muscle to match Russia, now add 20 other modern, European nations...
India would never permit a Pakistani move on Kashmir. Remember, they thrashed them before, it's unlikely Pakistan would stand a chance again.

Interesting "What If..", though.

China moves on Taiwan, Russia moves on Ukraine

Those have an exceptionally high potential for a nightmare scenario for Russia and China. The Ukranians have a fairly large, well trained and motivated military with top of the line equipment and probably have some tactical nukes hidden away.

Taiwan has a well equipped and motivated military designed specifically for defense of that island.

I watched CNN as they interviewed an American in Georgia who stated that there have been no attacks in Tbilisi and that many reports of Russian advances into Georgian cities were not necessarily true. The first casualty of war is....

I think you are letting them pull the wool over your eyes, if you really think Georgia wanted a full out war with Russia, while they had 150+ tanks and thousands of troops right on the border. The reason they are obliterating Georgia is because they do not want it to become part of NATO. They had issued threats in the past, warning them not to try and join. They are going to crush a few upstart countries and take control of the oil pipeline by putting in a puppet president. This will keep us out of Georgia.

Also 1/3 of the Ossetta population are Georgian...just because a lot considered them to be Russian does not mean that everyone felt that way.

Just my opinion anyway.

Medvedev has ordered a stop to Russian forces.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/12/georgia.russia.war/index.html

MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Russia's president has ordered an end to military operations against Georgia, the official Russian news agency Interfax reported Tuesday.
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/WORLD/europe/08/12/georgia.russia.war/art.russian.troops.jpg Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has called a halt to the advance of Russian troops in Georgia.



http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/2.0/content/in_the_news/left_gray_btn.gif (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/12/georgia.russia.war/index.html#)
1 of 3
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/2.0/global/pic_changer/next.gif (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/12/georgia.russia.war/index.html#)
more photos » (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:CNN_changeMosaicTab%28%27cnnPhotoCmpnt%27,%27 photos.html%27%29;)
more photos » (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:CNN_changeMosaicTab%28%27cnnPhotoCmpnt%27,%27 photos.html%27%29;)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/base_skins/baseplate/corner_wire_BL.gif



"I have reached a decision to halt the operation to force the Georgian authorities to peace," President Dmitry Medvedev said, according to Interfax.
The report also quoted Medvedev as saying that the "aggressor in South Ossetia has been punished and has incurred very significant losses."
Shortly before the announcement, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov told a press conference in Moscow Tuesday that it would only accept a cease-fire if Georgia withdrew from the disputed region of South Ossetia and agreed to renounce the use of force.
Lavrov said Moscow did not trust the country's leadership.
He said Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili's "barbaric and brutal action" had undermined trust in Georgia. http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/tabs/video.gif Watch more on Georgia's defense » (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/12/georgia.russia.war/index.html#cnnSTCVideo)
Lavrov also had harsh words for the West, saying he was "deeply disappointed" Western powers had not talked Georgia out of attacking South Ossetia last Thursday.
On Monday Saakashvili signed the cease-fire proposal after meeting the Finnish and French foreign ministers.
French President and EU leader Nicolas Sarkozy was due in Moscow Tuesday morning to talk with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, before flying to Tbilisi to met with Saakashvili. http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/tabs/video.gif Watch more on the fighting in South Ossetia » (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/12/georgia.russia.war/index.html#cnnSTCVideo)
Earlier, Vitaly Churkin, Russia's ambassador to the U.N., said it could not sign a Security Council cease-fire resolution drafted by the French because it was lacking in a "series number" of areas.
President George W. Bush said Russia's attacks against Georgia had "substantially damaged Russia's standing in the world."
Bush also warned Russia against trying to depose Georgia's government, saying evidence suggests Russia may be preparing to do so.
Meanwhile, the Russian military advanced further into Georgia overnight, heading toward cities outside South Ossetia (http://topics.edition.cnn.com/topics/south_ossetia)and Abkhazia.
From the flashpoint South Ossetia, the Russian military moved south toward the central Georgia city of Gori, Georgia said. Russia said its troops were on the outskirts of the city.
A CNN crew in Gori saw Georgian forces piling into trucks and leaving the city at high speed.
Don't Miss



Georgian president: Russia picked fight (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/11/georgia.president/index.html)
Analysis: Georgia's major miscalculation (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/11/georgia.russia.oakley/index.html)
Russia military dwarfs Georgian (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/11/georgia.russia.forces/index.html)
iReport.com: Send your photos, videos (http://www.ireport.com/ir-topic-stories.jspa?topicId=57541)
Special: Georgia Crisis (http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2008/news/georgia.crisis/)


CNN saw thousands of troops driving out of the city, as well as thousands of civilians traveling by convoy from Gori toward Tbilisi. http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/tabs/video.gif Watch a report from Gori as Georgian troops pull out » (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/12/georgia.russia.war/index.html#cnnSTCVideo)
Gori lies along Georgia's main east-west highway, and is an important site for Georgia's communication systems.
Russian troops were also in Senaki, in western Georgia, having advanced from the breakaway area of Abkhazia, Russian and Georgian officials said.
Georgia's security chief Alexander Lomaia said Tuesday that Russian troops had left Senaki but remained on the outskirst of Zugdidi and around Gori, The Associated Press reported. http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/tabs/map.gif Interactive map: See how far the Russians have advanced » (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/12/georgia.russia.war/index.html#cnnSTCOther1)
Lomaia said Russian aircraft bombed Gori on Tuesday morning, targeting administrative buildings and a street market in the center, AP reported.
Georgia, a pro-Western ally of the U.S., is intent on asserting its authority over South Ossetia and Abkhazia, both of which have strong Russian-backed separatist movements.
The situation in South Ossetia escalated rapidly from Thursday night, when Georgia said it launched an operation into the region after artillery fire from separatists killed 10 people. It accused Russia of backing the separatists.
http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/2.0/content/ads/advertisement.gif



South Ossetia, which has a population of about 70,000, is inside Georgia but has an autonomous government. Many South Ossetians support unification with North Ossetia, which would make them part of Russia.
Russia supports the South Ossetian government, has given passports to many in South Ossetia, and calls them Russian citizens.

It is amazing to me to see the reaction most of you post Cold war kids have to the current developments.

Yes I know ya'll are oooo so intelligent ( and spoondfed) and ooo so well know the Russian plans.

This shit is exactly the game plan of the early cold war. Russia will expand, now I wonder at the so called Islamic threat as more than a red herring.

Puttin had his horses in play early, he's a genious and we're going to pay unless we shore up our defenses. aka they are not here to play pretty with us, if China and Russia shore up their game we lose atm.....

Grats

Its absurd for you to imply because someone was born after the Berlin Wall that we wouldn't understand whats going on in the world ... and then to place all the blame on Russia, who got attacked by Georgia and not the other way around. That is like blaming the US for reacting any time one of our embassy's get attacked.

It is amazing to me to see the reaction most of you post Cold war kids have to the current developments.

Yes I know ya'll are oooo so intelligent ( and spoondfed) and ooo so well know the Russian plans.

This shit is exactly the game plan of the early cold war. Russia will expand, now I wonder at the so called Islamic threat as more than a red herring.

Puttin had his horses in play early, he's a genious and we're going to pay unless we shore up our defenses. aka they are not here to play pretty with us, if China and Russia shore up their game we lose atm.....

Grats

Fan...chill baby chill. The cold war was just that...a cold war with some wars by proxy. It was something both the US and Soviets did and unfortunately with our performance lately in Iraq we really have no moral ground to sit upon with this.

That is like blaming the US for reacting any time one of our embassy's get attacked.

Ha...ha...ha...we don't react when an embassy gets attacke or a Marine barracks gets attacked...in fact...we mostly due nothing unless corporate interests are threatened.

I don't think many people are painting Russia as the original aggressor San, if you re-read the responses. But merely as aggressive in the relative size of its reaction - very disproportionate.
Obviously Russia has an alternative end-game here other than removing Georgia from Ossetia. They want to break Georgia, scare the ex-soviet republics, and flex their muscles. This has been a blinding and obliterating strike - and IMO, they succeeded.

I didn't mean "here" as in here at Ayonae, but "here" in Georgia (not that one). I think around here (Ayonae), even if we disagree, we're all far more informed than the average American.

Unfortunately, almost every time the topic has come up in conversation here (Georgia), people sound like Fandros' post. When I ask them if they've heard that Georgia launched a nighttime sneak-attack on Russian peacekeepers in S.O. first, they tell me I'm wrong and that Russia started it.

They don't care to understand anything beyond "Russia is bad".

The news over here is really shockingly bad. The people still who get all of their news exclusively from a few domestic sources are typically very ill informed.

Now, how much of an impact do we believe Bush's speech to have had on Russia's decision to cease its advance?
Because if American tough talk contributed, I think it's pretty telling.

Or was it all part of the Russian strategy?

I seriously doubt any Bush oratory would affect Putin's game plan. I would be more inclined to believe that Putin would derive no small amount of pleasure of rubbing the noses of Bush and Cheney in it, which is essentially what has been done here.

The goal of a military demonstration has been accomplished, as well as the inability of the West to provide any serious assistance, which will no doubt impact on alliances of former USSR countries and the EU and US; the level of trust has been tarnished.

Scene 1 of the first Act comes to a close; there will be an intermission before Scene 2.

Typical fare here anymore...

Regardless,

I know full well Georgia was the aggressor, but I also know Russia is using this situation to do exactly as they want. Expand...

I think the line was "we will crush you" or some such decades ago. The great Bear did not go to sleep as much as lick it's wounds and rebuild its forces. It's not going to be content to allow the West to be ascendant any further without growling and showing it's strength.

L2 and Halo both paint good what ifs and I wonder at how close either might be.

I'm glad Russia called off it's dogs in Georgia, errr the chunk of land formerly called Georgia as it was smashed and all but cut in half.

Let's see.

We're attacked by (let's assume) AQ. We retaliate by invading two countries, deposing one of their leaders, and installing "regime change".

Georgia kills a thousand or two Russian civilians in S.O. Russia retaliates by attacking Georgia for a few days and apparently is already letting up.

Now, couple that with the fact that we have been in Georgia, helping them train for and plan the attack that set the whole thing off. We don't have a leg to stand on. There isn't an adjective to describe the hypocrisy required for us to call Russia out on this one.

So so so SO utterly true. Hearing Bush berrating Russia for invading a soverign nation made me want to reach thru the screen and slap his jawls. Hypocrisy is correct indeed.

Georgia kills a thousand or two Russian civilians in S.O.Is S.O. in Russia or Georgia? Every map I've seen has the S.O. within the recognized borders of Georgia.

We're attacked by (let's assume) AQ. We retaliate by invading two countries, deposing one of their leaders, and installing "regime change".Did I miss the UN Security Council Resolutions and a Russian parliamentary authorization for war against its neighboring state?

Akipt, now you know that even though the U.N. passes 17 resolutions, and a country breaks every single one of them, all that is really warrented is a strongly worded letter....

UN Resolutions? Are you fucking kidding me? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Isra el)

Is S.O. in Russia or Georgia? Every map I've seen has the S.O. within the recognized borders of Georgia.

Well, most of the maps I've seen in my lifetime have painted S.O. and Georgia both as part of the USSR. I suppose those things aren't set in stone...

Regardless, how does it make it okay if Georgia was just shelling its own people? Sounds like Saddam gassing the Kurds, doesn't it? Guess we'd better "liberate" Georgia!

That aside, only 25% of the South Ossetian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia) population is (was?) Georgian. The majority of them consider themselves Ossetian - specifically not Georgian.

Did I miss the UN Security Council Resolutions and a Russian parliamentary authorization for war against its neighboring state?

I'm still waiting on our Congress to actually declare war on Iraq too. I guess pootie poot learned from the worst, by watching us?

UN Resolutions? Are you fucking kidding me? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Isra el)Read up on the differences between Chapter 6 and 7 Resolutions before spouting off about stuff you obviously don't know anything about. Hint: read your wiki's first paragraph and squint real hard at its last sentence.

Well, most of the maps I've seen in my lifetime have painted S.O. and Georgia both as part of the USSR. Get a new map.

Regardless, how does it make it okay if Georgia was just shelling its own people? Sounds like Saddam gassing the Kurds, doesn't it? Guess we'd better "liberate" Georgia!

That aside, only 25% of the South Ossetian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia) population is (was?) Georgian. The majority of them consider themselves Ossetian - specifically not Georgian.You're all over the map on this one, pun intended. If Russia really cared they would have taken it to the UN ... but Putin (like me) knows that's a bullshit nest of idiocy. Either way, there's no comparison possible if you're really honest about the two different situations. Iraq had 17 BINDING (hint ainwein) resolutions against it. Where's Georgia's?

I'm still waiting on our Congress to actually declare war on Iraq too.Well me too, they obviously sidestepped their duties by only passing the join resolution for the use of armed forces against the specific country of Iraq and have only subsequently funded the continuation of those activities the past 6 years.

If you're claiming the Iraq war was unlawful, you're on no ground whatsoever.

Get a new map.

Like this one?

http://www.stratfor.com/files/mmf/b/b/bb345b1ec3cf6a9bc4c3486d1b876f6730d140dc.jpg

/shrug.

I just don't see your point in trying to claim that the Ossetians belong to Georgia. All that does is indict Georgia for shelling their own people.

Is that something we support? I wouldn't think so, given all of our previous rhetoric about Saddam being evil for gassing the Kurds, just a few hundred miles away.

I just don't see your point in trying to claim that the Ossetians belong to Georgia. All that does is indict Georgia for shelling their own people.And they deserve to be indicted in my book.
Is that something we support? I wouldn't think so, given all of our previous rhetoric about Saddam being evil for gassing the Kurds, just a few hundred miles away. All that previous rhetoric was spent in the UN and other international avenues to bind Iraq to actions and repercussions. But if you'd like to do away with the 'useless' UN and its silly Resolutions, just say so.

So why stop at Georgia? To quote Jedd, "Go RUSSIA!" Keep on rolling. I've seen Turkey bombing its own population over the past few years. I'm sure you can find a Pravda article that will give it enough credibility.

http://www.stratfor.com/files/mmf/b/b/bb345b1ec3cf6a9bc4c3486d1b876f6730d140dc.jpg



Well, fer cryng out loud! Just look at that map. If they can't come up with a name for their country that can be pronounced by honest, god-fearing folks, they don't deserve no pity!

From Mikhail Gorbachev - perhaps you remember him :) - in today's Washington Post:

The Georgian leadership could do this only with the perceived support and encouragement of a much more powerful force. Georgian armed forces were trained by hundreds of U.S. instructors, and its sophisticated military equipment was bought in a number of countries. This, coupled with the promise of NATO membership, emboldened Georgian leaders into thinking that they could get away with a "blitzkrieg" in South Ossetia.

In other words, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili was expecting unconditional support from the West, and the West had given him reason to think he would have it. Now that the Georgian military assault has been routed, both the Georgian government and its supporters should rethink their position.

Full article here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/11/AR2008081101372.html

In it, he reiterates that Georgia abolished South Ossetia's autonomy in 1991 and that since that time peace has been maintained only via a coalition of Russian, Georgian, and Ossetian forces - that is, until last week's invasion.

With regard to the assertion I quoted, one might argue that Mr. Gorbachev, being the self-declared head of 'a Moscow think tank', might have vested interests; but given his long track record of both courage and integrity I tend to think he's seeing the situation fairly accurately, and is appropriately concerned about our attempting to extend 'our sphere of influence' that deeply into Russia's backyard - regardless of whatever Putin/Medvedev's plans might be (and, I might add, that Mr. Gorbachev has repeatedly spoken out against Putin's reassembly of the system that he was instrumental in dismantling).

Regards,
Nydia

And they deserve to be indicted in my book.

Then I ask yet again, how do you defend Georgia for starting this conflict? How do you defend our and Israel's role in helping them do so?

All that previous rhetoric was spent in the UN and other international avenues to bind Iraq to actions and repercussions. But if you'd like to do away with the 'useless' UN and its silly Resolutions, just say so.

Again, how can we condemn Saddam for those actions, when we just participated in helping Georgia commit the same?

Don't you see how this makes us even more laughable than ever to anyone paying attention to the situation?

Can't you see how twisted and hypocritical it is for us to be involved in this at all, much less condemning Russia for responding? They did exactly what we would have done, and have done in the past. But, they're wrong, because "Russia's bad, mmkay?"

how do you defend Georgia for starting this conflict?
Dude seriously, it's like I post something and you and a few others on this board go apocolyptic and froth at the mouth about stuff I haven't said.

Again, how can we condemn Saddam for those actions, when we just participated in helping Georgia commit the same?We killed a 1000 civilians in Russia?

and heh, Gorby makes me laugh. I suspect Georgia just blew any chance they ever had of joining NATO, slim at it were to begin with. If they ever have a next time, they might want to actually get a binding defense treaty in place before committing stupid acts that will require its use. Georgian leaders are idiots if they thought NATO would race in to clean up their mess.

We killed a 1000 civilians in Russia?

Did you miss the part where we had at least a thousand Marines in Georgia training their army for this just a couple weeks ago? It's no secret that the US and Israel has been courting Georgia toward this action for some time now.

You can't just pretend like Georgia went off and did this own their own.

They shelled civilian and Russian peacekeeper targets in South Ossetia and you called Russia the bully for responding. What did you expect? Everyone to nod and agree?

Did you miss the part where we had at least a thousand Marines in Georgia training their army for this just a couple weeks ago? It's no secret that the US and Israel has been courting Georgia toward this action for some time now.

You can't just pretend like Georgia went off and did this own their own.

They shelled civilian and Russian peacekeeper targets in South Ossetia and you called Russia the bully for responding. What did you expect? Everyone to nod and agree?

What about the charge that there was artillery shelling from the S.O. side that killed ten civilians in Georgia, prompting the assault? Just curious, having seen this bit in one of the BBC side bars from a Halo posted article.

Georgia says their people were killed by shelling from S.O., and they were protecting their people. Russia says they were protecting their people from genocide. All anyone here can honestly say is "I read such and such in an article, or heard such and such from a news report". So why the back and forth nyah nyah shit?

What about the charge that there was artillery shelling from the S.O. side that killed ten civilians in Georgia, prompting the assault? Just curious, having seen this bit in one of the BBC side bars from a Halo posted article.

Georgia says their people were killed by shelling from S.O., and they were protecting their people. Russia says they were protecting their people from genocide. All anyone here can honestly say is "I read such and such in an article, or heard such and such from a news report". So why the back and forth nyah nyah shit?

Even if true...

10 dead georgians...
1000+ dead South Ossetians

Talk about disproportionate

Did you miss the part where we had at least a thousand Marines in Georgia training their army for this just a couple weeks ago? It's no secret that the US and Israel has been courting Georgia toward this action for some time now.

We had a thousand troops that were there to train them. I would want a well trained army backing my ass up in Iraq too if I was there. The US was in Tiblisi(not near SO) training soldiers heading to Iraq.

It is Georgia's fault using that training for other purposes.


Regarding the military personnel, EUCOM stated that they are not engaged in the conflict and are removed from where the fighting is happening.

In addition to the trainers(127), 1,000 soldiers from the Vicenza, Italy-based Southern European Task Force (Airborne) and the Kaiserslautern-based 21st Theater Sustainment Command, along with Marine reservists with the 3rd Battalion, 25th Marines out of Ohio, and the state of Georgia’s Army National Guard’s 1st Battalion, 121st Infantry recently participated in "Immediate Response 2008."


Immediate Response 2008 (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2008/07/mil-080715-arnews01.htm)

It has always been my understanding that South Osetta is recognized as part of Georgia by everyone but Russia pretty much. They are in a state of civil war. So the fact they are fighting what Georgia see's as separatists is not really surprising. Its also not surprising that Russia pulled the crazy card to keep us away from their territory. Its all posturing to keep them selves in a good bargaining position with the EU and the west.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7557049.stm

- Good article on the whole pipeline take. Especially plans for EU investment into expanding its capacity in both gas and oil.

A good article is this one by stratfor.
Article (http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/russo_georgian_war_and_balance_power)
Google search (http://www.google.com/search?q=stratfor+russo+georgian+war+&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1) (inbound links from google come in without registration, otherwise you'll need a very expensive sub).

The author breaks things down into 3 main categories:
why now
why the US couldn't do anything except smacktalk Russia
why Russia feels threatened (and what they're doing about it).

Wow...good thread but we don't seem to be able to agree on facts.

From what I have pieced together from reading about all this is:

Unknown - Is SO in Georgian territory, disputed or in Russian territory? Sound to me like, the very fact of "peace keepers" being there tells me it's disputed.

Fact - US forces were in Georgia to train Georgia's military for interoperability
alleged - They were there to train them for an attack on SO
alleged - They were there because of the troops in Iraq
alleged - They were their with Israels to plan the attack on SO

Alleged - Rebels or Russian troops attacked Georgian citizens - killing tens?

Fact - Georgia shelled and invaded SO killing a thousand (troops and civilians (mostly Russian)

Fact - Russia took back the SO territory expelling Georgian troops and invaded undisputed Georgian territory killing multiple(?) thousands.
alleged - Russia's main motivation for attacking is the oil pipeline
alleged - Russia is attacking to re-assert themselves as a world power in the void created by the Iraq war

For me who is to "blame", though that may be way to black and white for this situation, depends on the actual purpose of US troops being there and whether Georgia was actually attacked first.

Decent wrap up, or are there other facts or alleged facts needed to be added?

We had a thousand troops that were there to train them. I would want a well trained army backing my ass up in Iraq too if I was there. The US was in Tiblisi(not near SO) training soldiers heading to Iraq.

It is Georgia's fault using that training for other purposes.

You may be exactly right about that. It could turn out to be a gigantic coincidence.

I just have a hard time believing that Georgia not only decided to attack Russian troops on their own, but also managed to trick us into helping. I have a lot of complaints with the CIA, but inability to see things coming has never been one of them.

I keep seeing mentions of Russia having the bodies of American troops or Blackwater/Dyncorp mercs that they found in S.O., during that sneak attack. I suppose if that ever fleshes out definitively, it will be the smoking gun. If not, it's going to be hard to prove anything one way or the other.

Unknown - Is SO in Georgian territory, disputed or in Russian territory? Sound to me like, the very fact of "peace keepers" being there tells me it's disputed.I'm fairly confident the dispute over S.O. is whether it's Georgian or not. I haven't seen Russia claim it was theirs since the Soviet Union.

Yeah, S.O. wants their independence, not to be part of Russia. Good info here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

It may be an extreme over-simplification of the situation, but I see S.O. to Georgia as Chechnya is to Russia; a republic wanting to assert it's independence and which has used violent methods in the process of making their case.

Further, I think if Putin and his followers had their way, all of those republics along the southern border of Russia would be brought back into the fold. I still maintain we are only seeing the first chapter of this story.

I agree with you Byl...

I see S.O. to Georgia as Chechnya is to Russia; a republic wanting to assert it's independence and which has used violent methods in the process of making their case.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it's Georgia, not South Ossetia, that has reacted violently here and in the past. S.O. is a tiny populace, no better suited to attacking Georgia than Georgia is to attacking Russia.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it's Georgia, not South Ossetia, that has reacted violently here and in the past. S.O. is a tiny population no better suited to attacking Georgia than Georgia is to attacking Russia.


However there are claims that S.O. did exactly that San.

I'm sure none of us here have the facts, it should come out in the wash and ensuing investigation tho.

Perhaps S.O. was assured by Russia that if they prevoke Georgia that Russia would come in and carve out a chunk for S.O. to call their own.

It's quite possible, especially in light of Russia's precise and immediate actions starting late last week.

That is extremely unlikely to be substantially true. Do you have a source for that? Who is claiming that who attacked Georgia from S.O.?

You have to realize that Russian peacekeepers have been in S.O. for years, under UN supervision.

The entire province has a smaller population than the suburb of Atlanta I live in. They have no effective military. That's why Russian troops were required to defend them over the years to begin with.

Why would they provoke Georgia? They just want to be left alone. Suggesting they'd strike first makes no sense.

How big is Gaza ....no sense at all /nods

If they wanted to provoke a response from Georgia knowing full well Russia was going to secure their land then it's the only way they were going to get independence.

Georgia wasn't giving them up and as you stated S.O. lacked the might either military or monies to make it happen alone.

S.O. has no history of this though. They've been trying to peacefully declare their independence for over a decade, through a democratic process. Comparing them to Gaza is like comparing us to Hezbollah.

Where are you getting this? Is there a news source putting this S.O. aggressor spin on things? I haven't seen it yet. Do you have a source?

You have to realize that Russian peacekeepers have been in S.O. for years, under UN supervision.

The UN couldn't monitor it's own ass as far as peacekeepers go. The peacekeepers in Lebanon stood by while Hezbollah routinely shelled and fired rockets into Israel for months while all the UN did was try to churn out resolutions against Israel.

While SO has been agitating for its independence from Georgia, the Russians have been supplying Russian passports to them to give them Russian identity. Since North Ossetia is already part of Russia, a truly independent South Ossetia is not in the cards, though they may not realize it yet. Russia will claim them. It is rather similar to the geographical situation with the Kurds, except Russia has no fear of the Ossetians successfully breaking away while the Turks are terrified of losing their chunk of would-be Kurdistan and so are hostile to the Kurds becoming independent in Iraq.

The UN couldn't monitor it's own ass as far as peacekeepers go. The peacekeepers in Lebanon stood by while Hezbollah routinely shelled and fired rockets into Israel for months while all the UN did was try to churn out resolutions against Israel.

While SO has been agitating for its independence from Georgia, the Russians have been supplying Russian passports to them to give them Russian identity. Since North Ossetia is already part of Russia, a truly independent South Ossetia is not in the cards, though they may not realize it yet. Russia will claim them. It is rather similar to the geographical situation with the Kurds, except Russia has no fear of the Ossetians successfully breaking away while the Turks are terrified of losing their chunk of would-be Kurdistan and so are hostile to the Kurds becoming independent in Iraq.

If you are gonna throw out comparisons to the Palestinian Israeli conflict, at least learn some facts first. I won't continue down the road with this subject as not to derail... :(

That is extremely unlikely to be substantially true. Do you have a source for that? Who is claiming that who attacked Georgia from S.O.?

You have to realize that Russian peacekeepers have been in S.O. for years, under UN supervision.

The entire province has a smaller population than the suburb of Atlanta I live in. They have no effective military. That's why Russian troops were required to defend them over the years to begin with.

Why would they provoke Georgia? They just want to be left alone. Suggesting they'd strike first makes no sense.


I remarked earlier in this thread that a posting by Halo of a BBC piece had a sidebar article stating that Georgia had attacked in response to the killing of ten civilians by S.O. artillery. Does that answer your question?

Which link? I don't see that info in any of the BBC articles he linked.

Plenty about Georgia using artillery on South Ossetia, provoking the conflict, but not the opposite.

/nods Byl I had picked up on that also and was wondering if true perhaps there is cause to suspect the Russian quick response.

Maybe this was a "Pearl Harbor" allowed to happen (or coerced) so that a big player can get his hands on the prize.

As I said earlier, none of us here have the facts at our command. I'm just suspicious of our old cold war foe. It's a fairly common suspicion that Russia want's it's former countries back in the fold(along with their resources).

http://www.mfa.gov.ge/index.php?lang_id=ENG&sec_id=461&info_id=7347


I cannot find the sidebar article atm, since there are many to read through, but I did copy the link for the Georgian Foreign Ministry or whatever. If you scroll down to August 6 and August 7, the time line of events given there offers the claim of offensive shelling coming from the S.O. side of the border.

I am not saying it is a fact, but it is just as valid I suppose as anything the Russian Foreign Ministry may offer at this point. The timeline also details attempts to negotiate prior to Georgia initiating the military assault.

I can't say I'm inclined to believe the Georgian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. In this situation, they're about as credible as Baghdad Bob was when we invaded Iraq.

By that same token, I found a Russian news site that claimed to have photos of the body of an American Marine that was fighting for Georgia in S.O. I'm not going to believe that in a million years though, unless a less biased source reports on it.

'Why would they provoke Georgia? They just want to be left alone. Suggesting they'd strike first makes no sense.'

- San, it makes perfect sense. Look at the way the seperatists in Abkhazia, with Russian support their drove the Georgian troops out that have been in the East of that region since 1993. The provoking of Georgia by Ossetians would naturally lead to Russian intervention on their behalf. It doesn't take a genius to realise that.

I'm not saying the Ossetians did provoke anyone, indeed there is no evidence to support that. But it is not *hard* to believe.

If you look at the chain of events... (that Stratfor article was good btw)

Russia had their invasion forces at their jumpoff points and ready to oscar mike within 24 hours. They were ready and waiting for this, almost as if they knew it was going to happen.

Given the fact that 90% of the people in SO have Russian passports.... the likelyhood of Russian operatives conducting an operation to intentionally provoke the Georgians is pretty good.

If you look at the chain of events... (that Stratfor article was good btw)

Russia had their invasion forces at their jumpoff points and ready to oscar mike within 24 hours. They were ready and waiting for this, almost as if they knew it was going to happen.

Given the fact that 90% of the people in SO have Russian passports.... the likelyhood of Russian operatives conducting an operation to intentionally provoke the Georgians is pretty good.

Look back at the events utilizing US forces over the past 30 years, and the manner in which military commanders always talk of the amount of time it takes to get an operation up and running. I don't believe we could have had a similar force of naval, air force, armor and ground troops moving like that in 24 hours unless we had it already planned and prepped.

San, it makes perfect sense. Look at the way the seperatists in Abkhazia, with Russian support their drove the Georgian troops out that have been in the East of that region since 1993. The provoking of Georgia by Ossetians would naturally lead to Russian intervention on their behalf. It doesn't take a genius to realise that.

I'm not saying the Ossetians did provoke anyone, indeed there is no evidence to support that. But it is not *hard* to believe.

It seems like they'd be putting themselves in the position of being more likely to be annexed by Russia than left independent.

I'm not clear on their ultimate desires. Do you know if they're looking to be completely independent in the long run or if they'd prefer to be part of Russia again, with North Ossetia?

It seems apparent, based on what I have read, that the Russians were prepared in advance to make this move. Whether it was because they had good intelligence about what was happening, were just prepared for this eventuality, or active pursued goading the Georgians to move into SO is really just speculation at this point. I guess it depends on whether you see the elected government of Georgia as either being victimized or just evil and/or gullible.

What does seem apparent from Russia's subsequent actions is that are bent on punishing the Georgians and throwing it in the US's face. It's hard to come down on either side without good reliable facts. I don't think any of the interested parties, US, Georgia or the USSR..umm oops, Russia are particularly reliable when it comes to facts.

So now apparently we are sending aid through our navy and air force, and warning the Russians not to impede... Georgia got themselves into this mess... how about giving that food to our homeless and hungry, and the medicine to the millions without health insurance... Instead of sending it to some country who's leader was too stupid to realize that attacking a Super power = getting wtfpwned.

We're not sending aid to the leader, I'm thinking he's fine. :)

The administration is sending a message that they support their allies and using words to fight Russia's military might. If the poor and homeless mattered to this administration we never would have invaded Iraq...but that's another thread.;)

So now apparently we are sending aid through our navy and air force


The true sign of a 'compassionate conservative'. :rolleyes:

I still think if you step back and look at the whole thing through the lens of us wanting to fight Russia by proxy, the whole thing makes perfect sense. Georgia provoking Russia, us sending them aid, the way the media has been spinning Russia as the aggressor, everything.

Same as our behavior in the Soviet-Afghan conflict.

Interesting tid bit about this war...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/technology/13cyber.html

According to Internet technical experts, it was the first time a known cyberattack had coincided with a shooting war.

Seems coincidental me, but still interesting.

"I will crush you" is from Rocky 4.
"We will bury you" is from Nikita Kruschev.
:)

Lets not forget either...

Putin is the former head of the KGB. Something like these seems right up his alley.

Lets not forget either that Bush Sr. was the former head of the CIA.

Looks like the puppet masters on both sides are pulling some strings?


Cheers,

Geez. And Stalin was from Georgia.

It seems like they'd be putting themselves in the position of being more likely to be annexed by Russia than left independent.

I'm not clear on their ultimate desires. Do you know if they're looking to be completely independent in the long run or if they'd prefer to be part of Russia again, with North Ossetia?

From the articles I have read they want to be reunited with North Ossetia.

I came across this link on another forum:
CAUTION: DEAD BODIES, BLOODY WOUNDS AND BURNING WRECKS!
http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=112
CAUTION: DEAD BODIES, BLOODY WOUNDS AND BURNING WRECKS!

I've been getting the occasional 503 error (server hammered) when trying to explore other posts in their forum. No I don't read Russian.
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/ should be able to help you.

Fast forward this video to 1:30 and 2:30 and listen to what the girls said...

H8XI2Chc6uQ

Control the press is apparently the watchword in S.O.

A turkish news crew just came under fire in a news video release by CNN>

Don't know who was opening fire on them atm.

Everyone get a grip.

This is what war looks like. You think it was any prettier when we invaded Iraq? Are we only shocked because its white people getting shot up and bombed?

Fucking ridiculous. We are suddenly shocked, SHOCKED that when war is prosecuted it is so brutal and ruthless.

Yes, certainly what Russia is doing is wrong, and unjustifiable. War by itself, for almost any reason is pretty much a crime. It is the ugliest, most violent, most despicable act humans do to each other. It is a last resort that should be taken only after every other conceivable and possible option has been exhausted.

If you want to understand how the world looked at us after we invaded Iraq, right now, this moment, how do you feel about the Russians?

Control the press is apparently the watchword in S.O.

A turkish news crew just came under fire in a news video release by CNN>

Don't know who was opening fire on them atm.

Welcome to war... Are you talking about this?

efPNHcxbWA0


Don't remember you being up in arms about this...

m9FP7VKGlc8

So you show no outrage at Israel's killing of reporters, yet you are quick to vilify Russia for the same?

What about when it is America's fault?

WglscP1FKl8
IXzMSx1o5cM

Where is the outcry?

I don't mean to point fingers at you Fandros... but the double standards in this country are unbelievably retarded.

/sigh

Silly me, I had almost started believing jedd had grown out of that obsessive tangential redefining of every topic.

What the reporters are effectively doing is showing that nobody is safe in a war zone.

/sigh

Silly me, I had almost started believing jedd had grown out of that obsessive tangential redefining of every topic.

What the reporters are effectively doing is showing that nobody is safe in a war zone.

yes, because pointing out hypocrisy is childish... And I can swear fandros changed his post. It was much more "omg press not even safe, omg Russia"

If you want to understand how the world looked at us after we invaded Iraq, right now, this moment, how do you feel about the Russians? Did I miss a decade of international outrage, sanctions, and broken UN resolutions against Georgia?

In the 21st century, nations don't invade other nations!

Did I miss a decade of international outrage, sanctions, and broken UN resolutions against Georgia?

Did you miss the 12 year old girl thanking Russia for moving in after the Georgian bombs started falling in South Ossetia?

Did you miss the card she was reading from?

Did you miss the card she was reading from?

Reading from cards??? uh... no?

She was most likely looking left and right cause she was looking at crew members behind the camera... You think Fox News would let them put that in a cue card?

No one uses cue cards anymore. They dramatically affect eye-lines and are tough to see in the lighting conditions in studios (that girl was pounded with four very bright lights from the front - one on her left for a key, one on her right for a fill, and two more on her mother).

Honestly I don't think she was reading from a teleprompter, which is a backlight computer screen mounted below the lens of a camera and reflected up right into the lens with a piece of glass. If you want to see what that looks like watch any Bush speech, he's awful at it. Her eyes were darting around far too infrequently when you generally only fit about 6 words maximum across a teleprompter before it drops down to the next line. I'd imagine Jedd is right you had a floor director and a few camera people moving around which were distractions, plus maybe a producer or makeup artist.

She could have been briefed or prepped considerably before the interview, she could even be a paid actor, but I'm sure she wasn't reading off a prompter.

Oh god guys, it was a piece of rhetoric.

So a Georgian saying Russia was the aggressor would be the same to you? just Rhetoric off of a cue card?

Fact is Georgia did attack first, and over 1000 South Ossetians died before Russia intervened. So why is it Rhetoric? Why is it not the account of a two South Ossetian's?

I bet you would not question the validity had it been a Georgian.

No Jedd I didn't edit the post, it was always as it is now

Someone was intentionally shooting at the press which I fould revolting.

No Jedd I didn't edit the post, it was always as it is now

Someone was intentionally shooting at the press which I fould revolting.

Then I apologize for responding to your post the way I did... however my post still stands to the west in general.

That's fair enough, I've often said the press isn't really news as much as someone's agenda pushed as news.

Nice synopsis here:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1831073,00.html?iid=sphere-inline-sidebar

Geaorgia has a right not be shelled by rebels in SO, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2519908/Caucasus-in-crisis-Georgia-invades-rebel-region.html:

"Despite our call for peace and a unilateral ceasefire, separatists continued the shelling of Georgian villages," Mamuka Kurashvili, a senior Georgian commander, said. "We are forced to restore constitutional order in the whole region." A rapid deterioration in the separatist crisis began over the weekend when at least six people were killed in a shoot-out after an improvised explosive device detonated as a Georgian military convoy drove past.

But clearly Saakashvili over-reacted by invading and trying to take back the region. It's also pretty clear that Russia was expecting it and may have had a hand in goading the Georgians to take that action.

It's not clear who the villain is, as is it in most conflicts like this. That being said, if Russia continues to occupy Georgian territory looting, pillaging and killing....they will clearly, and easily, be put in the villain role by the world community.

That kind of fits in with what I was asking.

Was there some sort of action taken by S.O. to provoke a response?

Now it seems as though it's possible, and yes Georgia overreacted.

Hey Jedd, why are you so in the pocket for Russia while not even Iran has voiced support their invasion of Georgia? Don't mind me though, you're in good company with Cuba anyway.

Rice in Georgia, brokering peace deal:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080815/ap_on_re_eu/us_russia_georgia

"Bullying and intimidation are not acceptable ways to conduct foreign policy in the 21st century," Bush said.

umm, but, but....:)

In the 21st century, nations don't invade other nations!

Gasp, San quoted that old white haired guy who was pimping Paris Hilton.

So a Georgian saying Russia was the aggressor would be the same to you? just Rhetoric off of a cue card?

Fact is Georgia did attack first, and over 1000 South Ossetians died before Russia intervened. So why is it Rhetoric? Why is it not the account of a two South Ossetian's?

I bet you would not question the validity had it been a Georgian.


Has this finally been proven somehow?

I know both sides are accusing the other, and giving wildly different accounts of what initiated the conflict, but I was not aware that this had been straightened out yet. Thanks to jedd, who always has the FACTS before anyone else, we now know the truth.

'however my post still stands to the west in general.'

- You do know that you are in the West, right?

'however my post still stands to the west in general.'

- You do know that you are in the West, right?

Self loathing is all the rage out here lately Halo.

Makes us feel as though perhaps we've purged ourselves of the evil the West does.

I do await the results of any investigation that comes out of this.

Hey Jedd, why are you so in the pocket for Russia while not even Iran has voiced support their invasion of Georgia? Don't mind me though, you're in good company with Cuba anyway.

I don't make my decisions based on Iran's opinions Akipt, and yes Iran has pledged to assist in any way Russia would require, as South Ossetians are Iranic.

'however my post still stands to the west in general.'

- You do know that you are in the West, right?

I am quite aware...

When one tribe hates another, there is money to be made. Your country is broke? Spread some hate to your weak neighbor that is doing well economically and has something you want and then dare the world to do anything about it. Especially when there really is little support for the US to do much of anything militarily do to the general fact that the US has been told to stand in the corner with a dunce cap both politically and economically.

Russia will get what it wants, which is an easy way to market oil to Europe and the rest of the world via pipeline and ship....or not market it, depending on their whims. They want the ability to manipulate oil logistics and thus.... the global aggregate supply of oil and the price per barrel. Fuck OPEC when you sit on a nice lake of oil pretty much run by the Russian Mob. The past year has proven how easy that is to do and Russia, being the strong arm pack of assholes who would rather flip the bird to the rest of the world than play along for the common good is taking advantage of the world on "the upswing".

So... let Russia have a cut, or a new Cold War and astronomical oil prices. Fuck, why are we still using this shit as fuel? Its all owned by douschebags!

Oh and Iran piping in...yah. Sure pal. Hide behind your big friend who manipulates you to build a nuke in order to continue their misguilded agenda. I hope they feed you lots of nuclear knowledge so you can stand up and be counted with the assholes that felt that peace on earth was worth less than your stupid fucking religion.

your stupid fucking religion.

Stupid Fucking religion?

Listen up Twinkle toes, if you want to talk shit about a government, go right ahead...But you dare call Islam a stupid fucking religion? Have you taken a look in the mirror yet at your own religion? Let me guess... Christian? Catholic? All with either fucked up history or present day bullshit. Either a bloody hypocritic piece of shit, or a child molesting bunch of old fucks.

What an ignorant ass.

Oh and in regards to this...

When one tribe hates another, there is money to be made. Your country is broke? Spread some hate to your weak neighbor that is doing well economically and has something you want and then dare the world to do anything about it. Especially when there really is little support for the US to do much of anything militarily do to the general fact that the US has been told to stand in the corner with a dunce cap both politically and economically.

Turn that shit around and realize how well you just defined the USA...

Your country is broke? CHECK!
Spread some hate to your weak neighbor(country you hate in the middle east) that is starting to do well economically and has something you want ... CHECK

Guess what... there is little support for the US to do anything militarily cause we are seen as "FUCKING AGGRESSORS" and people think we are pieces of shit who invade for oil.

Its ok though, cause unlike Russia we aren't a "strong arm pack of assholes who would rather flip the bird to the rest of the world than play along for the common good" right??? Oh wait... WE INVENTED FLIPPING THE BIRD TO THE WORLD.

Sorry for going off on a tangent people, but this fuck and his blatant insult to a religion that is not only one of the largest in the world, but one of the most peaceful religions when taken in the appropriate context which the MAJORITY of its followers do, really pisses me off... Fuck all religions, I hate them all, but single one out and you are a piece of shit to me.

Its ok though, cause unlike Russia we aren't a "strong arm pack of assholes who would rather flip the bird to the rest of the world than play along for the common good" right??? Oh wait... WE INVENTED FLIPPING THE BIRD TO THE WORLD.

Okay now I know you're deep in your cups ( and I won't hold it against ya cuz we all know I imbibe and rage at times).

However I will point out that saying Russia doesn't attempt to strong arm folks??

Bud you are up in the night with that thought, they are some of the most corrupt aggressive and downright nasty folks you can imagine.

You obviously don't remember the Cold War, you obviously have forgotten how Russia decimated Afgan. and wow do you so easily forget how Russia ran every religion out of their country upon pain of death?

Ease up cowboy, put that fermented fun down and walk away from the boards ;P (sometimes I wish someone was around to keep me off the damn thing when I drink! ;)

I never implied that Russia wasn't corrupt, I just find it hilarious that some people vilify them for doing exactly what we do.

337

It really should be Europa drinking from that pipeline, not Uncle Sam.

Afterall, it's oil to Europe Russia wishes to monopolize, not that to the US.

X1f0_hGSUwk

More about the girl on Fox:

lptVAbw5oos

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7566070.stm

- Knew it would happen. This all may have backfired for Russia, as the ex-republics slowly turn to NATO and the West through fear of Russian military assertion.

This all may have backfired for RussiaI'm thinking your right.

I'm hoping your right.

Yea. I think Russia over-reached.

I wonder if it was all green lighted by Moscow, I have this sneaking suspicion that the Russian Army went a bit Cowboy. I mean Medeved is saying "We are withdrawing" as tanks continue to roll inward. You can't look anything other than stupid when that happens.

I mean, think about it. Russia stops in SO, and its a pure unadulterated geopolitical win. They are protectors of the little guy. Regional peacekeepers, responsible observers of sovereignty. They cross the border and now they are the aggressors, bent on domination, scaring the shit out of the rest of the region, rather than inspiring confidence in them.

It would be interesting to see if any top Russian Military people are relieved of command in the coming days and weeks.

Is there a substantial difference between Russia's handling of this and our handling of Kuwait?

Oh I don't know... maybe the immediate sanctions by the UN and subsequent coalition force of 34 nations (also authorized by the UN) built over the period of months? That's a good place to start.

I mean Medeved is saying "We are withdrawing" as tanks continue to roll inward. You can't look anything other than stupid when that happens

Medeved is to Bush like Putin is to Cheney...lets play...guess who's really in charge!

Oh I don't know... maybe the immediate sanctions by the UN and subsequent coalition force of 34 nations (also authorized by the UN) built over the period of months? That's a good place to start.

I will find you 50 resolutions against Israel, a victim and 100 or so nations that. Would work as a coalition to attack them. Same as Kuwait akipt?

I will find you 50 resolutions against Israel, a victim and 100 or so nations that. Would work as a coalition to attack them. Same as Kuwait akipt? Nope (http://ayonae.com/showpost.php?p=148051&postcount=84).


Quote:

Originally Posted by ainwein http://ayonae.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://ayonae.com/showthread.php?p=148049#post148049)
UN Resolutions? Are you fucking kidding me? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Isra el)

Read up on the differences between Chapter 6 and 7 Resolutions before spouting off about stuff you obviously don't know anything about. Hint: read your wiki's first paragraph and squint real hard at its last sentence.

Jedd, Must you always bring Israel into every freaking argument. IT HAS NO BEARING HERE. We are talking about the differences between Georgia and Kuwait.

Some other differences. Kuwait was a UN recognized country, SO is not. SO is fully within the recognized borders of Georgia. The oust of Iraq from Kuwait was done per UN mandate...the pushing out of Georgia from SO was not.

Similarities: Russia extended the invasion into Georgia, as the US did into Iraq. From Russia's POV, Georgia, or more specifically, the Government of Georgia, is a threat to their security and the security of the region especially in regards with the involvement of the US and NATO. Russia has been looted and destroying Georgian owned property as they leave, as Iraq did in Kuwait....at least by some reports.

The first and most appropriate parallel I can think of is the British Falkland Islands thing.

That seems to be most appropriate in this case and the two have alot of simularities, except the British knew when to stop, in that case.

the British knew when to stop

I'm sure logistically the British had to stop and lets not forget quite a few Royal Navy vessels got waxed there.

I will find you 50 resolutions against Israel, a victim and 100 or so nations that. Would work as a coalition to attack them. Same as Kuwait akipt?

List out those resolutions please along with the one against Iraq for the invasion of Kuwait. I have a hunch those of us without a specific agenda like yours will read a little differently, thank you.

I am unaware of any resolution authorizing a force to contain Israel's aggression in the same manner as the resolution regarding Iraq. I am not saying there has not been cause for the same, only that I do not believe there has been the same.

'I'm sure logistically the British had to stop and lets not forget quite a few Royal Navy vessels got waxed there.'

- Woah, stop right there buddy. The war only came to an end because the Scots Guard captured every one of the 10,000 Argie deployment on East Falklands after the Battle of Mount Tumbledown.

Besides, Argentina's fate was largely sealed in the beginning of the conflict after Operation Black Buck, when we crippled Argentine military bases, logistics and supplies with an acute and intense bombing of all airports, stores and troop concentration points, with Avro Vulcan Bombers. The ability and longevity of Britain's war-waging capability in the South Pacific was best expressed by this operation, which was actually carried out from bases on Britain's Acsesion Island - 8,000 miles away (the longest in history until the Gulf War)!!

Once Argentina's air attack was repelled, and troops landed, it was pretty much over. The sinking of Argentina's largest ship, the Belgrano (it was the only ship to have ever been sunk by a nuclear submarine - Fun Fact), signalled to the military junta that the game was over - even though they had effectively sued for peace a day before this.

Yep, British logistics were stretched to their limit, but few countries could have waged war at such short notice, over so large a distance, with so few supply bases. The war, however, ended through British military victory, and for no other reason :P

Cheers!

Hey, I think the Royal Navy, British Army, Royal Marines are only second to US Marines. I think you misunderstood me, the loss of not so much the front line ships but of the Atlantic Conveyor in a way forced the Brits hand in the way it was fought.

The Sea Harriers rocked as did the march across the islands to Port Stanley. However, it is obvious that the capabilities of the Argentine Naval Airforces were grossly underestimated by British commanders, not to say that in the end they didn't kick some serious ass.

I realize that there was circumstances involving satellite transmission in how the first Exocet got through to the Sheffield and the Atlantic Conveyor hit was a luck shot but things like that happen in war and there was not really any contingencies for the hits that the Brits took.

The Argentinian pilots drove those A-4s like hot rods through that harbor and I don't think the Brits were expecting that.

Oh I agree, but nonetheless the war ended through military victory. Remember, we were preparing (and warning) to strike at bases in Argentina itself, even after a ceasefire had been called - it's the British way, we take ages to get going, but once we do, we're a fucking steamroller.

Sorry for going off on a tangent people, but this fuck and his blatant insult to a religion that is not only one of the largest in the world, but one of the most peaceful religions when taken in the appropriate context which the MAJORITY of its followers do, really pisses me off... Fuck all religions, I hate them all, but single one out and you are a piece of shit to me.

You are right, Jedd.

Fuck all organized religion. Its a crutch for the weak minded, exploits the ignorant and is used as an excuse for countless death. The world is a mess mostly due to people killing for God or Allah when they are too lazy to figure things out as human beings.

There. I said it. So yah, your religion is fucking stupid. Mine is too. It flies in the face of science or even common sense. Please feel free to get all asshurt now, everyone, but everyone is always too scared to ever talk about religion anyway in nothing but the most exaulted light. A little difference of opinion is nice once in a while. Sorry it took a month to respond but I have better things to do

Sorry it took a month to respond but I have better things to do

Or you type really slow.

Or you type really slow.

The internet here in Baghdad is a touch slow and yes I do type slow too!

Muhammed can't run those "1's" and "0's" back and forth, fast enough Lumm?

LOL...

Muhammed can't run those "1's" and "0's" back and forth, fast enough Lumm?

LOL...

What a dick

To get this even remotely back on topic, speaking of all things Russian, I'm fascinated by the recent marketing of Vladimir Putin as a 'larger than life' figure, the alpha of alpha males, with both virility and intellect to spare, who makes both heads of state (see fanboi George W. Bush) and teenaged girls go weak at the knees. Last month, there was the coverage of him shooting a tranquilizer dart into a 'dangerous' Siberian tiger who had escaped from a trap while he was out with a film crew ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7591456.stm ), and this month he's released a 'Learn Judo with Vladimir Putin" DVD : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7658574.stm

All this celebrity has clearly gotten to be too much for Mr. Putin, who has asked that cities please stop naming streets after him:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7655981.stm


It's gotten to be so laughably obvious, despite the man's clear genius and ambition, that whenever I refer to Putin to a certain friend, we start singing "What would Brian Boitano Do?"
Watch the video of the woman describing Putin's 'heroic' actions in the tiger incident while singing this bit:

"When Brian Boitano was in the alps,
Fighting grizzly bears,
He used his magical fire breath,
And saved the maidens fair."

Seriously, what will the man do next? I'd be funny if it weren't so darned effective...

Regards,
Nydia

"When Brian Boitano travelled through time
To the year 3010,
He fought the evil robot kings
and saved the human race again!"

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/washingtonpostinvestigations/2008/11/report_georgia_may_have_sparke.html?nav=rss_blog

I've seen several articles lately supporting the Georgia aggression theory, but just saw this one a few minutes ago and it reminded me to post here.

Looking more and more like the Western strategy of blaming Russia for the whole thing is incorrect.

I was saying that from the start...

It is funny how often I am right, and how much flak I take for being so outrageous in my beliefs until the facts show I was correct :)

American Jedi mind tricks are strong.

I was saying that from the start...

It is funny how often I am right, and how much flak I take for being so outrageous in my beliefs until the facts show I was correct :)


Let's not get carried away, now, jedd.


But seriously, on the topic of Russia, I am finding it very interesting that they are now discussing a measure by which they would extend the Presidential term to 6 years, and insert language that would allow Putin to run again when the current guy (Medyevdev or something) steps down.

Seems to reinforce some of our suggestions that Putin was not really relinquishing control.

Seems to reinforce some of our suggestions that Putin was not really relinquishing control.


I heard he will rear his ugly head in Alaskan airspace.

'It is funny how often I am right'

- It is funny how often you think you're right.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7722460.stm

- Hmmm.. extending presidential terms? This is beginning to smack of dictatoriship.

Well, it's not an indefinite extention, but it's a start.....

It is funny how often you think you're right.

That pretty much applies to all of us. :p

Well, Putin only wants whats best for his country and what did his country best was the paranoid hatred of the West. He will stay in power long enough to assure that we can all relive the good ole days of the Cold War, only no one really cares to take it seriously this time around since there just is no basis for it. If Putin really wanted to be a complete thorn in the backside he could have Russia join OPEC and have an even greater amount of energy be controlled by that group of wackos. It would be 10 times more effective than the Warsaw Pact nations ever were, since a member nation with a sleeping giant of a military industrial complex and nuclear weapons could pretty much do whatever it wanted if they also effectively regulate a monopoly that sets how much we all pay for oil.

Its not probable though, as its much easier for Russia to pump massive amounts of oil out of the ground and sell it at the inflated prices paid for crude when OPEC cuts back on production. Its also easier for Russia to court the members of OPEC that particularly hate the US so as to make some fast Rubles off of arms sales.

"Sure, we will consider joining OPEC. Perhaps inking this deal for 20 MiGs might aid our decision making....."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7728789.stm

- Seems it's gonna happen.

I am so not surprised by this. He never relinquished power, only the title.

Yeah that was a given. But is this merely the foundation of a long-term dictatorship??
The majority in favour of this legislation was startling, shows just how well he's "managed" the Russian parliament.

Time for another update.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7765052.stm

- I'm thinking there's a few more un-democratic measure he wants his puppet to push through before he makes a bid for the dictatorship again.

Well yeah, I'm sure there are a few. What's the rush after all?

Time for another update.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7765052.stm

- I'm thinking there's a few more un-democratic measure he wants his puppet to push through before he makes a bid for the dictatorship again.


Hey, he gets two terms served, one term by proxy, and then another two terms served.......no reason to be in a hurry.

Aye, mucho agreeo.
And I don't mean to be a Russophobe, but I found this interesting...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7768743.stm

Apparently the Russian Pres signed off on the bill (or whatever they call it over there) on Tuesday to lengthen the term of the President.

It was even more interesting to me that it was just a tiny blurb buried in the midst of the paper.

For obvious reasons.

Well everyone's nervous over here at the moment, as Russia's cut off gas supplies to the Ukraine, through which the EU gets 45% of her supplies. Russia has assured us it won't affect us, but Romania and Bulgaria are already reporting that pressure in their gas-pipes have supposedly already dropped by a large margin.

It would appear that Russia is going to be the EU's Saudi Arabia. Just not half as friendly.

Yikes, 1/2 of a negative is indeed a bad thing!!

This year is going to be scary indeed.

For obvious reasons.

Well everyone's nervous over here at the moment, as Russia's cut off gas supplies to the Ukraine, through which the EU gets 45% of her supplies. Russia has assured us it won't affect us, but Romania and Bulgaria are already reporting that pressure in their gas-pipes have supposedly already dropped by a large margin.

It would appear that Russia is going to be the EU's Saudi Arabia. Just not half as friendly.

I'm feeling for ya', Halo.

Was reading today that they have almost doubled what they want Ukraine to pay from their first figure during negotiations. I cannot see how Russia can say it won't impact the EU countries when the pipeline they are shutting down to Ukraine is the same one carrying the supply to the EU. And that is part of the problem, with Ukraine wanting to offset the increased prices with increased charges for having the pipeline cross their territory.

What is apparent tho' is that this financial crisis is hurting the Russian energy company the same as others are being impacted, and therefore hurting Russia. I wonder how far Putin and his puppet will allow it to go before they seek some compromise that allows them to save face with the rest of their customers.

Not long, I expect. Indeed merely until they've made the point that "we can squeeze you any time". I've read that the East European nations so far affected have stock-piled enough gas not to be affected by the cut-off, but then it depends how long it continues. Obviously the most telling consequence of the action will be gas prices, so Putin is acting very much like an OPEC all by himself.