In case you still believe that we need to "stay the course" or occupy Iraq for 100 years if that's what it takes, read this:

http://www.juancole.com/2008/06/real-state-of-iraq.html

It's a good summation of how badly we've screwed the Iraqis, while "helping" them. For example:

The wars of Iraq-- the Iran-Iraq War, the repressions of the Kurds and the Shiites, the Gulf War, and the American Calamity, may have left behind as many as 3 million widows. Having lost their family's breadwinner, many are destitute.

Although it is very good news that the number of Iraqis killed in political violence fell in May to 532 according to official sources, the number was twice that in March and April. And,it should be remembered that independent observers have busted the Pentagon for grossly under-reporting attacks and casualties. If someone shows up dead and they aren't sure exactly why, it isn't counted as political violence, just as an ordinary murder. Attacks per day are measured by whether the mortar shell scratches any US equipment when it explodes. If not, it didn't happen. McClatchy estimated a year and a half ago that attacks were being underestimated by a factor of 10.

As for the displaced (i.e. homeless), they amount to a startling 5 million persons. There were 1.8 million internally displaced in January of 2007, and by December it had risen to 2.4 million. There are 2.3 million externally displaced, 2 million of them in Jordan and Syria.

In fact 5 million displaced persons is almost the entire population of nearby countries such as Jordan or Israel! 5 million is about the number of Jews in Israel, for instance. In absolute numbers, that is how many Iraqis are living in some other country or some other province, having lost their homes.

The question is, does it get better or worse if we withdraw...

Do the Shiites essentially wipe out the Sunnis? Does Turkey come in and wipe out the Kurds? How much more of a threat is a unified Shiite Iraq and Iran?

on the other side...

In light of our current economic situation, the falling dollar and meteoric rise in gas prices....how can we justify $12 billion a month to keep this charade going.

I think the lesson should be that it is simply not possible to fix this current problem through military intervention/imperialism. The longer we continue to oppress them, the more we help the various fundamentalist groups justify themselves to the Iraqis (and others in the region).

I think it's quickly becoming undeniable that the longer we stay, the worse it will be when we eventually have no choice but to leave. So, even if it's true that leaving will cause a dangerous, short-term power vacuum, it's the only sensible choice in the long-term.

Of course, I'm not naive enough to believe our presence there has the first thing to do with bettering the Iraqi people.

The real question is, are we actually leaving? Ever? Really?

We've had an occupational force in Okinawa for sixty years. The Japanese had us put it there because it's the part of their island chain they care the least about, the Mississippi of Nihon, if you will. I would not be the least surprised to find that a) we have transitional plans to move a sizable permanent force to non-urban areas and b) neither presidential candidate is going to, in effect, fight city hall and reign this all in.

Then the conditions in Iraq effectively don't matter, drop off the news, and nobody cares what's happening in Bagdad because the green zone isn't our problem anymore.

Of course, I'm not naive enough to believe our presence there has the first thing to do with bettering the Iraqi people.

You bet it wasn't....
.......it wasn't about WMDs
.......it wasn't about Saddam
.......it wasn't about stopping terrorists
.......it was all about cash

Cash to Bush and Cheney's cronies in the oil and weapons industies and, of course, Haliburton.

...in that sense it has been an overwhelming success. Record profits for big oil and for weapons manufactures and tremendous opportunity for Haliburton to further fleece the American people (and then leave the country to avoid taxes and accountability).

You bet it wasn't....
.......it wasn't about WMDs
.......it wasn't about Saddam
.......it wasn't about stopping terrorists
.......it was all about cash

Cash to Bush and Cheney's cronies in the oil and weapons industies and, of course, Haliburton.

...in that sense it has been an overwhelming success. Record profits for big oil and for weapons manufactures and tremendous opportunity for Haliburton to further fleece the American people (and then leave the country to avoid taxes and accountability).


You left out Blackwater the company that is owned by someone so forward thinking that they knew there would be a need in Iraq for private security contracts worth billions of dollars. It's almost like he saw the future, some guys are just so smart. I wonder what side of his parents he inherited his forward thinking abilities from, his Mom or his high ranking republican party official father?

Hehe, this thread makes me laugh.

I wish we could go back five years on this forum so me and the - now non-existent - Euro trash population could say: WE TOLD YOU SO!

I was saying it was a bad idea back then and I was living in Prague, do I count?

Hehe, this thread makes me laugh.

I wish we could go back five years on this forum so me and the - now non-existent - Euro trash population could say: WE TOLD YOU SO!

I know the Colonial Superiority complex is hard to let go of, but it wasn't just you :>

I admit, I was wrong 5 years ago. But I realized my error the moment I turned on the TV and saw looting in the streets, and the Administration saying, "These are the birth pangs of Democracy". I knew we were fucked from that moment on.

You left out Blackwater... I wonder what side of his parents he inherited his forward thinking abilities from, his Mom or his high ranking republican party official father? The Amway side of the family.

How about Quickstar?

Blackwater got its start with contracts in Kosovo.
The good side of private military contracting is that at least someone pays soldiers what they are worth, even if it's only after they leave the military. Veteran's Benefits are a crime.

The trouble with arguing against the war is that it's arguing FOR Saddam and his son's continued rule. On the other hand, now you still can't put down a park without the turf getting stolen. Helping a people who are willing to steal dirt seems hardly worth it...especially when it's the sunnis who are the least anti western (except for the wahabis...oh wait, those are in Saudi Arabia, our allies. Bah, talking politics always devolves into a history lesson there).

I've said it once, I'll say it again. Whatever problems people have with KBR, they deliver a top of the line product. Awesome food, good laundry facilities, the best local living quarters, and steady life support services (water, power, garbage, vermination). The only legit points of complaint were some of their hiring and billing practices, but they were "gaming the system" issues rather than fraud issues. (it's not fraud to charge someone big bucks if they agree to pay them. It's LAME, but it's not FRAUD).

The best part is how a good portion of the data is stored. Terabytes of data stored in....excel spreadsheets (not access, exel!), with not enough time to convert and reenter it into a proper SQL databases with php front ends...let alone ruby front ends....

In a strange coincidence, SOE QA also tracked its bugs in excel :)

It's amazing the info you get when you interview, even if you don't get the job.....