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Rover
10-28-2006, 02:06 PM
The latest swift boating of a true hero and real patriot.

The real James Webb:

James Webb grew up on the move, attending more than a dozen different schools across the U.S. and in England. He graduated from high school in Bellevue, Nebraska. First attending the University of Southern California on an NROTC academic scholarship, he left for the Naval Academy after one year. At the Naval Academy he was a four-year member of the Brigade Honor Committee, a varsity boxer, and was one of six finalists in the interviewing process for Brigade Commander during his senior year. Graduating in l968 he chose a commission in the Marine Corps, and was one of 18 in his class of 841 to receive the Superintendent's Commendation for outstanding leadership contributions while a midshipman. First in his class of 243 at the Marine Corps Officer's Basic School in Quantico, Virginia, he then served with the Fifth Marine Regiment in Vietnam, where as a rifle platoon and company commander in the infamous An Hoa Basin west of Danang he was awarded the Navy Cross, the Silver Star Medal, two Bronze Star Medals, and two Purple Hearts. He later served as a platoon commander and as an instructor in tactics and weapons at Marine Corps Officer Candidates School, and then as a member of the Secretary of the Navy's immediate staff, before leaving the Marine Corps in l972.

Mr. Webb spent the "Watergate years" as a student at the Georgetown University Law Center, arriving just after the Watergate break-in in 1972, and receiving his J.D. just after the fall of South Vietnam in l975. While at Georgetown he began a six-year pro bono representation of a Marine who had been convicted of war crimes in Vietnam (finally clearing the man's name in 1978, three years after his suicide), won the Horan award for excellence in legal writing, and authored his first book, Micronesia and U.S. Pacific Strategy. He also worked in Asia as a consultant to the Governor of Guam, conducting a study of U.S. military land needs in Asia, and their impact on Guam's political future.

Mr. Webb has written six best-selling novels: Fields of Fire (l978), considered by many to be the classic novel of the Vietnam war, A Sense of Honor (l981), A Country Such As This (1983), Something To Die For (1991), The Emperor's General (1999) and Lost Soldiers (2001). He taught literature at the Naval Academy as their first visiting writer, has traveled worldwide as a journalist, and his PBS coverage of the U.S. Marines in Beirut earned him an Emmy Award from the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences.

In government, Mr. Webb served in the U.S. Congress as counsel to the House Committee on Veterans Affairs from l977 to l98l, becoming the first Vietnam veteran to serve as a full committee counsel in the Congress. During the Reagan Administration he was the first Assistant Secretary of Defense for Reserve Affairs from l984 to l987, where he directed considerable research and analysis of the U.S. military's mobilization capabilities and spent much time with our NATO allies. In 1987 he became the first Naval Academy graduate in history to serve in the military and then become Secretary of the Navy. He resigned from that position in 1988 after refusing to agree in the reduction of the Navy's force structure during congressionally-mandated budget cuts.

Among Mr. Webb's many other awards for community service and professional excellence are the Department of Defense Distinguished Public Service Medal, the Medal of Honor Society's Patriot Award, the American Legion National Commander's Public Service Award, the VFW's Media Service Award, the Marine Corps League's Military Order of the Iron Mike Award, the John Russell Leader-ship Award, and the Robert L. Denig Distinguished Service Award. He was a Fall, 1992 Fellow at Harvard's Institute of Politics.


Below lets look at who is swiftboating James Webb:

Only a decade ago, as governor of Virginia, Allen personally initiated an association with the Council of Conservative Citizens (CCC), the successor organization to the segregationist White Citizens Council and among the largest white supremacist groups.

In 1996, when Governor Allen entered the Washington Hilton Hotel to attend the Conservative Political Action Conference, an annual gathering of conservative movement organizations, he strode to a booth at the entrance of the exhibition hall festooned with two large Confederate flags--a booth operated by the CCC, at the time a co-sponsor of CPAC. After speaking with CCC founder and former White Citizens Council organizer Gordon Lee Baum and two of his cohorts, Allen suggested that they pose for a photograph with then-National Rifle Association spokesman and actor Charlton Heston. The photo appeared in the Summer 1996 issue of the CCC's newsletter, the Citizens Informer.

According to Baum, Allen had not naively stumbled into a chance meeting with unfamiliar people. He knew exactly who and what the CCC was about and, from Baum's point of view, was engaged in a straightforward political transaction. "It helped us as much as it helped him," Baum told me. "We got our bona fides." And so did Allen.

Descended from the White Citizens' Councils that battled integration in the Jim Crow South, the CCC is designated a "hate group" by the Southern Poverty Law Center. In its "Statement of Principles," the CCC declares, "We also oppose all efforts to mix the races of mankind, to promote non-white races over the European-American people through so-called "affirmative action" and similar measures, to destroy or denigrate the European-American heritage, including the heritage of the Southern people, and to force the integration of the races."

The CCC has hosted several conservative Republican legislators at its conferences, including former Representative Bob Barr of Georgia and Senator Trent Lott of Mississippi. But mostly it has been a source of embarrassment to Republicans hoping to move their party beyond its race-baiting image. Former Reagan speechwriter and conservative pundit Peggy Noonan pithily declared that anyone involved with the CCC "does not deserve to be in a leadership position in America."

Asked whether Allen supports or deplores the CCC, John Reid, his communications director, pleaded ignorance. "I am unaware of the group you mention or their agenda and because we have no record of the Senator having involvement with them I cannot offer you any opinion on them," Reid told me in an e-mail response.

In posing for a picture that he knew the CCC would use to promote itself and him, and would be circulated to true believers, Allen joined a tradition of conservative Southern politicians seeking to burnish their neo-Confederate credentials. In 2003, former Republican National Committee chairman and Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour took a photograph with revelers at the CCC's "Blackhawk Rally," a fundraising event for white "private academies." In the subsequent hailstorm of media criticism, after reporters discovered that the CCC had posted photos of Barbour on its website, Barbour pointedly refused to demand that the group remove them. Though Barbour came from an old and influential Mississippi family in Yazoo, he had spent a long time as a lobbyist in Washington. "In Mississippi, one of the biggest problems he had was they thought he [Barbour] was a scalawag. So it didn't hurt him in Mississippi," Baum said of the photos. "Nobody said, 'Oh my golly!'" Despite the CCC photos becoming a campaign issue, or partly perhaps because of it, Barbour handily won re-election in 2003.

But George Allen's relationship with the CCC is different; it went beyond poses and portraits. In 1995, he appointed a CCC sympathizer, Virginia lawyer R. Jackson Garnett, to head the Virginia Council on Day Care and serve on the Governor's Advisory Council on Self-Determination and Federalism. According to the CCC's Citizens Informer, Garnett delivered a speech before a CCC gathering saying that the Federalism Commission was "created to study abuses by the Federal government of constitutional powers that rightfully belong to the states."

Later that year, Garnett closed the Virginia Council on Day Care after accusing it, as he wrote in a letter to Governor Allen, of attempting to "form the minds of our young children with a radical ideology before they enter public schools." The Virginia Council had aroused Garnett's ire, according to the Virginian-Pilot newspaper, for preparing an "anti-bias" curriculum for daycare teachers. Allen approved the shut-down.

Allen's Advisory Council on Self-Determination and Federalism bore an eerie resemblance to the Virginia Commission on Constitutional Government, a state agency that engaged in lobbying and propaganda in support of "massive resistance" to integration. One typical pamphlet published by the Commission declared, "We do not propose to defend racial discrimination. We do defend, with all the power at our command, the citizen's right to discriminate."
A year after the trashing of the Virginia Council on Day Care, Allen expressed his fervent belief in states' rights in a letter to the largest neo-Confederate group, the Sons of Confederate Veterans. On the occasion of the group's centennial, in 1996, Allen wrote, "Your efforts are especially worthy of recognition as across our country, Americans are charting a new direction--away from the failed approach of centralized power in Washington, and back to the founders' design of a true federal system of shared powers and dual sovereignty." Then Allen appropriated Lincoln's language in the Gettysburg Address about "a new birth of freedom": "By doing so," wrote Allen, "our country is helping to foster a rebirth of freedom for all Americans and will allow the states to chart their own course and control their own destinies as intended by the Constitution."

Allen was not alone in sending congratulations to the SCV; twelve other governors and Mississippi Senator Trent Lott--an SCV member--joined him. However, according to Ed Sebesta, a Dallas, Texas-based researcher of the neo-Confederate movement, Allen's letter was unique. "The other governors wrote mostly sentimental blather to the SCV," Sebesta said. "But Allen's letter really expressed the neo-Confederate view of the Southern tradition and showed him to be a neo-Confederate in his thinking."

The year after his letter to the SCV, Allen issued a proclamation, drafted by the local SCV, declaring April as Confederate History and Heritage Month--the month Fort Sumter was attacked and Lincoln assassinated. Once again, Allen's proclamation was laced with neo-Confederate ideology, describing the Civil War as "a four-year struggle for independence and sovereign rights." He avoided any mention of slavery.

Days after Allen's proclamation, the SCV celebrated at the US Capitol. The featured speaker was Richard T. Hines, an influential Republican lobbyist and neo-Confederate financier who, a year earlier, had protested the erection of a memorial to black tennis star Arthur Ashe in downtown Richmond, Virginia as "an attempt to debunk our heritage." The NAACP condemned Allen's SCV-inspired proclamation, while Confederate Memorial Association President John Edward Hurley called the SCV's celebration at the Capitol one of "the worst capitulations to white supremacy" since the Ku Klux Klan marched down Pennsylvania Avenue in 1920.

At the same time Allen also cultivated support from the SCV's sister organization, the United Daughters of the Confederacy. He was a frequent guest at their conventions and in March, 1997, in his second letter of commendation to the group, praised its members for "promoting historical accuracy and a clear understanding of the War Between the States," employing a euphemism for the Civil War popularized by neo-Confederate groups. (An article in a 1989 issue of the UDC magazine asserted that "the worse suffering group among those engaged in the [slave] trade" was "the crews of slave ships.")

When asked whether Allen supports or deplores the SCV, his communications director Reid replied in an e-mail, "Governors routinely send greetings to individuals and organizations and that is what the constituent service office did in this case. I am certain you will note the inclusive language in the letter advocating 'a rebirth of freedom for all Americans.'" As with the CCC, Reid did not offer any condemnation of the SCV.

At the height of Allen's governorship, in Spring 1995, the CCC's Citizens Informer praised him: "Residents of the Old Dominion are rejoicing." But the CCC's invisible support became a potentially controversial matter after a 1998 Washington Post article by Thomas Edsall disclosed the CCC's links to Bob Barr. CPAC head David Keene ousted them from his conference, bluntly telling the Post of his sudden discovery: "They are racists."

Baum, for his part, maintains that Keene and CPAC's attendees were well aware of his group's racial views. "David Keene, he knew who we were," Baum told me. "I mean, you have Confederate flags on each sides of your booth--like, duh. But after the proverbial you-know-what hit the fan, he didn't want us there." (Baum said he "finagled" tickets for the 2006 CPAC convention and promoted the CCC from behind the National Rifle Association's booth.)
In 2001, Governor Allen became Senator Allen. Almost as soon as he was inaugurated, he was forced to choose between the Lost Cause and his own ambition. Trent Lott set in motion Allen's supposed reconstruction. At a 2002 birthday party for Senator Strom Thurmond of South Carolina, Lott praised Thurmond's segregationist 1948 presidential campaign. At first, Allen rushed to Lott's defense, calling him "a decent and honorable man." Lott, however, soon became radioactive. The Washington Post reported Lott's links to the CCC; his tenure as Senate Majority Leader became wobbly. Karl Rove, Bush's chief political strategist and a White House aide, pressured Republican senators to remove Lott from his leadership position. (Rove preferred the more compliant Bill Frist in the Senate's top post.) Allen saw his own opportunity in Lott's disgrace. Overnight, he went from being staunch Lott supporter to outspoken Lott critic. Calling for Lott's resignation, Allen dubbed his remarks "offensive...to those touched by the viciousness of segregation."

In the wake of Lott's fall, Allen dramatically pronounced the end of institutional racism. "This is a day that the United States Senate, with Trent Lott's resignation, has buried, graveyard-dead-and-gone, the days of discrimination and segregation," he proclaimed. With discrimination "graveyard-dead," Allen clearly hoped questions about his own past would be buried as well.

In 2000, he had hung a noose at his law office. When that fact was reported, he claimed it had "nothing to do with lynching." When it was reported that he also hung large Confederate flags in his house, he explained they were part of his flag collection. Allen had also opposed the 1991 Civil Rights Act and making Martin Luther King, Jr.'s birthday a holiday.

Using the Lott incident, Allen stepped forward as a champion the legacy of the civil rights movement. He boasted to Ryan Lizza of The New Republic of his "civil rights" pilgrimage to Selma, Alabama in 2002 with Democratic Rep. John Lewis of Georgia, a former Freedom Rider. In 2005, together with Democratic Senator Mary Landrieu of Louisiana, Allen co-sponsored a formal apology for slavery. He was carrying the banner of a new brand of Republicanism that compensated for its opposition to affirmative action and social spending with symbolic condemnations of what President George W. Bush deemed "the baggage of bigotry."

But the goodwill Allen may have earned with his image makeover evaporated on August 11 in Breaks, Virginia, a rural town deep in the heart of Appalachia. Before an all-white crowd, he called S.R. Sidarth "Macaca, or whatever his name is." When Allen asked the crowd to "welcome Macaca here" to "America and the real world of Virginia," his audience hooted and hollered. Below the media's radar--and away from every camera except the one in Sidarth's palm--Allen was raising a supposedly buried but still vibrant racially charge populism.

Now Allen finds himself in a quandary. While he atones for his racist gaffe in order to succeed in the 2008 Republican primaries, he cannot afford to alienate the neo-Confederate movement that helped propelled his career during the 1990s. As Allen begs forgiveness for his "mistake," his spokesman avoids criticizing groups like the SCV and CCC. "The neo-Confederates could break a Republican candidate, especially in South Carolina, where they're extremely organized," Sebesta observes.

Senator John McCain's misadventure with the neo-Confederate movement in the 2000 South Carolina primary provides a cautionary tale that must not be lost on Allen. Facing George W. Bush in South Carolina, McCain hired Richard Quinn as his state field manager. Quinn was an editor of the neo-Confederate magazine Southern Partisan, and a frequent critic of Martin Luther King Jr. and Nelson Mandela, who he once dubbed a "terrorist." Before the primary, Quinn organized a rally of 6,000 people in support of flying the Confederate flag over the statehouse. Quinn dressed up McCain volunteers in Confederate Army uniforms as they passed fliers to the demonstrators assuring them that McCain supported the Confederate flag.

As soon as news spread that McCain had called for removal of the Dixie flag from the statehouse, the SCV's Richard T. Hines funded the distribution of 250,000 fliers accusing McCain of "changing his tune" and describing Bush as "the [only] major candidate who refused to call the Confederate flag a racist symbol." Bush surged ahead of McCain and took South Carolina, dooming McCain's presidential hopes.

"People didn't buy it," Baum told me about McCain's gambit. "When he thought the flag issue would help him, he was for it. When he thought it wouldn't help him, going North, he denounced it. And you still have all these gullible liberals who think McCain's a saint."

Now, Allen is trying to lay the groundwork for his own Southern Strategy in 2008. On August 9, he took time out of his re-election campaign to keynote the South Carolina GOP's state convention. If he can overcome the controversies over his past in his Senate race, Allen may yet get to play his old game once again.


Lets not forget while Webb was serving in Vietnam Allen was spending his time on a Dude Ranch.

Thormir
10-28-2006, 06:13 PM
That it's any contest at all is amazing to me.

Osgiliath666
10-28-2006, 11:46 PM
Cliffnotes please. Republicans do not like to read that much.

Rover
10-29-2006, 12:15 AM
George Allen is a typical modern day republican who wears the party name but has not one single ounce of a true conservative in him. He is all about having government in our personal lives, corporate welfare, bullshit solutions to problems like immigration with voting yes on a 700 mile fence to cover 2300 miles of border...you know things like that which brings out the true village idiots in our society. Know what I mean... border starts here |fence goes here | Border ends there...but hey no mexican could possibly go through the gap.

Allen is basically now putting forth the notion that Webb is not possibly qualified to become a senator because he wrote some sexually explicit passages in his best selling and acclaimed novels (based on real things he witnessed in Vietnam)

But of course never having had the notion to serve his country beyond the notion that service should serve your own greed, Allen has resorted to attacking the character and record of Webb.

Webb is a former Marine officer who holds the Navy Cross, Silver Star, two Bronze Stars and the Purple Heart from his exemplary sevice in Vietnam. He also served as the Secretary of the Navy as appointed by Ronald Reagan. asically Webb is much better qualified to serve in a position of government than Allen.

Ailwon
10-30-2006, 10:59 AM
Republicans do not like to read that much.

That pretty much says it all.

Sixee
10-30-2006, 11:28 AM
Sources of the "Quotes"?

Rover
10-30-2006, 12:46 PM
Sources of the "Quotes"?

The Internet for the first one and the Internet for the second one.

giena
10-30-2006, 12:51 PM
Come on Rover, for as much crap as gets posted on this board, everyone wants links to the source articles. Just post em instead of blaming the intraweb.

Rover
10-30-2006, 12:59 PM
Come on Rover, for as much crap as gets posted on this board, everyone wants links to the source articles. Just post em instead of blaming the intraweb.


Honestly, I don't remember. I found the articles by using "The Google" and typing in their names individually.


Ok, I found them:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060911/george_allen

http://www.jameswebb.com/about.htm

Note the information about Webbs service in Vietnam is also available on many websites.

akipt
10-30-2006, 01:03 PM
http://www.jameswebb.com/about.htm

and

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060911/george_allen

respectively.

You missed the indepth and enlightening article MoveOn.org did for Webb. And I can't wait for Dan Rather's exclusive this election's eve.

Sixee
10-30-2006, 01:03 PM
Well, we all know how accurate things are posted on the Internet.
:rolleyes:

The 1st site is a nice vanity site for that candidate.
The second 1 gives away its position with the advertising banner "IS BUSH SPYING ON YOU?"

Lleauric
10-30-2006, 03:27 PM
smackdown

"I have written about what I have seen and that is the duty of a writer," said Webb of his career as the author of six best-selling novels and his time as a working war reporter, of which he contrasted his time in battle with Allen's existence "... as a pampered government official coming in for his dog-and-pony show briefings."

"Now maybe George Allen doesn't understand that, since I'm told he doesn't read books," Webb said to raucous laughter from the crowd. "Somebody told me yesterday that I've written more books than George Allen has read."

Webb then listed all of the chances he has had to bash Allen for his many blunders in this campaign -- and how he has turned all of them down, saying simply that capitalizing on Allen's many character flaws is "not relevant to what I'm trying to do."

"They asked me to comment, and I refused," Webb said. "I passed up all of this while the Allen campaign has made smear tactics the centerpiece of their entire effort."

"Why have they done that?" asked Webb. "Because George Allen has nothing to report. He has no accomplishments. He has been wrong on foreign policy. He is one of the reasons we are bogged down right now in a nightmare in Iraq. He's been a key figure in selling out the average American worker in order to protect the interests of the powerful who have always paid his way. And by attacking my career and my ethics in this way, if anyone has any doubts from other indicators, he has now shown his true character."

Rover
10-30-2006, 03:36 PM
Well, we all know how accurate things are posted on the Internet.
:rolleyes:

The 1st site is a nice vanity site for that candidate.
The second 1 gives away its position with the advertising banner "IS BUSH SPYING ON YOU?"

Well, you can do things like lookup information on DELTA COMPANY 1/5 that would be the unit that Webb served in Vietnam. He was also the secretary of the Navy under Reagan.

The site I referenced is Webbs personal site.

Also Note that some of his books are required reading for Marine Corp officers as they are very accurate in the portrayal of the many situations.

Also note that the article about George Allen has not been disputed by him as it is also public record much the same as is Webbs record of military and government service.

When you get down to the basics of it Webb is far more qualified than Allen for any position of leadership.

Rover
10-30-2006, 03:46 PM
http://www.jameswebb.com/about.htm

and

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060911/george_allen

respectively.

You missed the indepth and enlightening article MoveOn.org did for Webb. And I can't wait for Dan Rather's exclusive this election's eve.


Yes MoveOn.org wants Webb over Allen as do many active duty personel also want Webb over Allen.

OMG...you got me there. Obviously Webb is an un-american and un-patriotic person who somehow really didn't earn his awards and somehow faked out the whole Reagan administration into appointing him as the secretary of the navy.

You will never understand that those who have experienced war are always going to be the last to want to use force as they know there is no glory in war, only those who have sat on the sidelines and those that believe that movies like "The Sands of Iwo Jima" show the reality of war.

I truly hope that we implement a draft in this country and require compulsory service with NO college deferments. Everyone made to serve and every family has a personal stake in these insane and ridiculous decisions that this adminstration has made regarding Iraq. And to those who are so quick to wage war, I hope you or your children serve.

Bylimet Spiritwalker
10-30-2006, 05:18 PM
I truly hope that we implement a draft in this country and require compulsory service with NO college deferments. Everyone made to serve and every family has a personal stake in these insane and ridiculous decisions that this adminstration has made regarding Iraq. And to those who are so quick to wage war, I hope you or your children serve.


I have said it before and will say again, compulsory service is one of the best ways to get citizens to take ownership of their country; look to Israel if you doubt this. It is easy to sit in the local bar downing a beer with buddies and talking patriotic; it is much more meaningful to have worn the uniform, and taken an oath to defend your country.

I support wholeheartedly a draft being reinstated. However, I would increase the term of service to three years from two, to better recapture the investment of training in personnel.

Nydia Ywalmoriel
10-30-2006, 10:39 PM
I was thinking about this today while at work (they have A Ro blocked there :/) after I read your post this morning, Rover, and I'd have to say in my heart of hearts that I'd like to see compulsory military service (for both sexes, a l'Israel) in this country. However, given the population differential between their country and ours, we simply might not need that large of a standing Army in the regular sense of the word.

However, I think it might install a very beneficial sense of 'investment' in our country and its government if we instituted mandatory military service anyway; and the 'excess' youths in compulsory service (or those not fit for regular service, as I proved to be) could serve in various 'Americorps' type projects, the Coast Guard, etc.

I'd wholeheartedly support either compulsory service for all 18-20 year old youths (who might come out of the experience better prepared for college!) and would prefer it to a 'regular' draft, which becomes political/problematic when people, mostly of privelege, try to claim inappropriate exemptions, pull strings to get in the Guard or Reserves, etc. If it's understood that *everyone* serves (full-time for 2-3 years, as a grunt), while 'string-pulling' to get cushier jobs will still undoubtedly occur, I think that will produce a much better attitude towards service in general (and investment in our country), as well as provide considerable benefit to the country in the form of public works projects in addition to military service, etc.

Regards,
Nydia

Sixee
10-31-2006, 07:22 AM
I also agree on this point. It does provide ownership, as those of us who have served can attest to.
Robert A Heinlein posed an interesting theory, much along the same lines in Starship Troopers (the book, not the movie; although the movie touched on it briefly). Citizenship in the Republic could only be gained through voluntary federal service.
This built a sense of ownership in the Republic. You had a bigger stake in the future of your government if you spent the time invested in defending it.
It wasn't mandatory, which I'm not sure would serve us very well, but was a requirement if you wanted Citizenship.
As a Citizen, you could hold office, you were allowed to vote. If not, you were still granted the rights under most Democracies (freedom of Religion, speech, assembly).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_Troopers

Good reading, and the book isn't very big.

giena
10-31-2006, 08:07 AM
Being a resident of Virginia, I'm following the Webb/Allen vote quite closely. And to be honest, I still don't know which way I'm going to vote. Thanks to everyone that linked articles, I'm definitely going to be doing some reading so I can make an informed vote.

Typically, I vote Repub, but this year, I may have to stray from party lines. Like I said, still not sure.

ainwein
11-01-2006, 01:31 AM
...horny woman's dream...

giena
11-01-2006, 08:01 AM
Dont get me wrong Wein, Webbs comments are reprehensible, but so is Allens blatant racism. But at least Webb was in the military and had a long career serving the country. Like I said though, I still have a lot of reading to do.

Lleauric
11-01-2006, 09:06 AM
Why does George Allen hate our troops??

http://home.comcast.net/~antaylor1/usmccommandant.html

Thormir
11-01-2006, 10:00 AM
Dont get me wrong Wein, Webbs comments are reprehensible, but so is Allens blatant racism.
I must have missed something. What comments of Webb's were "reprehensible?" Something from his novels?

Rover
11-01-2006, 10:30 AM
A few years ago, like 20 or 25 years, he stated that "The mens barracks at the naval academy were a horny womans dream"

Not really reprehensible...just a point to pick on

Thormir
11-01-2006, 11:57 AM
Ah yeah, I did hear that somewhere, chuckled and moved on.

giena
11-01-2006, 12:07 PM
Thor and Rover already hit on it, but the more I read, the more I realize they were comments that were written 20+ years ago in his books based on his experiences in Vietnam. Honestly, I think they were stupid things to say, and any woman should take offense at it, but it was 20 years ago. People change.