From Tuesday Morning Quarterback. (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrookpreview/070828&sportCat=nfl)(scroll down to Atlanta Falcons) It's rare that an article gets me to realize I was being wrong or short-sighted, but this one did both. If you don't want to read the whole thing, I bolded 1 paragraph.

The disgusting thing about dogfighting isn't that animals battle and die -- after all, animals fight to the death in nature, tearing each other's flesh with heartless violence. The disgusting thing about dogfighting is that supposedly intelligent members of Homo sapiens add sadism to the natural equation by starving dogs to make them extra aggressive, filing their incisors to make the fights bloodier, and engaging in other acts unbecoming any man or woman of ethics. What Michael Vick confessed to Monday ought to disgust you, regardless of whether you are a dog lover. Include me. The Official Dog of TMQ -- a Chesapeake retriever, noble state dog of Maryland -- slumbers happily near my feet as I write this.

But the punishment expected to be imposed on Vick -- one to two years in federal prison, and perhaps never playing in the NFL again -- seems out of proportion to his actions and his status as a first-time offender. The situation is confusing because the federal crimes to which Vick pleaded guilty turn as much on gambling and racketeering as dogfighting; gambling and racketeering concern federal prosecutors because of their relationship to organized crime. Racketeering can lead to jail terms even for nonviolent first-time offenders not involved with drug sales, such as Vick. The NFL, for its part, has very strong reasons to detest gambling, and elaborately warns players they will be harshly penalized for associating with gamblers. Yet I can't help feeling there is overkill in the social, media and legal reactions to Vick, and that the overkill originates in hypocrisy about animals.

Thousands of animals are mistreated or killed in the United States every day without the killers so much as being criticized, let alone imprisoned. Ranchers and farmers kill stock animals or horses that are sick or injured. Some ranchers kill stock animals as gently as possible, others callously; in either case, prosecution is nearly unheard of. As Derek Jackson pointed out last week in the Boston Globe, (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/08/22/michael_vick_isnt_alone) greyhound tracks routinely race dogs to exhaustion and injury, then kill the losers, or simply eliminate less-strong pups: "184,604 greyhound puppies judged to be inferior for racing" were killed, legally, in the past 20 years.

Hunters shoot animals for sport. They do so lawfully, while the manner in which Vick harmed his dogs was unlawful. But from the perspective of the animal, there seems little difference between a hunter with a state game license zipped in his vest pocket shooting a deer as part of something the hunter views as really fun sport, and Vick shooting a dog as part of something Vick views as really fun sport. In both cases, animals suffer for human entertainment. The animal-ethics distinction between Vick's actions and lawful game hunting are murky at best. A first-time offender should go to prison over a murky distinction?

Much more troubling is that the overwhelming majority of Americans who eat meat and poultry -- I'm enthusiastically among them -- are complicit in the systematic cruel treatment of huge numbers of animals. Snickering about this, or saying you're tired of hearing about it, doesn't make it go away. Most animals used for meat experience miserable lives under cruel conditions, including confinement for extended periods in pits of excrement. (Michael Pollan, who enthusiastically consumes meat and fowl, describes the mistreatment in his important new book The Omnivore's Dilemma. (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/08/22/michael_vick_isnt_alone)) Meat animals don't magically stop living when it's time to become a product; they suffer as they die. One of Vick's dogs was shot, another electrocuted. Gunshots and electrocution are federally approved methods of livestock slaughter, sanctioned by the Department of Agriculture (http://frwebgate2.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=264295379621+10+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve) for the killing of cows and pigs. Regulations under the Humane Slaughter Act (http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusfd7usca1901.htm) of 1958 give federal sanction to shooting cows or pigs, or running electrical current through their bodies. Shooting and electrocution are viewed by federal law as humane ways to kill animals that will be consumed. Federal rules also allow slaughterhouses to hit cows in the head with a fast-moving piston that stuns them into semiconsciousness before they are sliced up. Being hit in the head with a powerful piston -- does that sound a bit painful, a bit cruel? It's done to tens of thousands of steers per year, lawfully.

Don't say "eew, gross" about how meat animals are butchered, then return to denouncing Vick. If you're eating a cheeseburger or BLT or steak or pot roast today, there's a good chance you are dining on an animal that was shot or electrocuted. You are complicit. You freely bought the meat, you did not demand Congress strengthen the Humane Slaughter Act. Livestock can be calmed and drugged before being slain. A few slaughterhouses do this, but most don't because it raises costs, and you, the consumer, demand the lowest possible price for your meal. Now about your turkey sub or coq au vin. Federal slaughter regulations apply mainly to large animals, leaving considerable freedom in the killing of fowl. Many poultry slaughterhouses kill chickens by slashing their throats rather than snapping their necks. Snapping the neck kills the bird quickly, ending suffering, but then the heart dies quickly, too. Slashing the throat causes the bird to live in agony for several minutes, heart still beating and pumping blood out of the slash -- and consumers prefer bloodless chicken meat.

Further, the Humane Slaughter Act exempts kosher and halal slaughter. In both traditions, the cow or lamb must be conscious when killed by having its carotid artery, or esophagus and trachea, slashed. The animal bleeds to death, convulsing in agony, as its heart pumps blood, which is viewed as unclean, out of the slashed openings. The delicious pastrami we consumed at a kosher deli, or the wonderfully good beef we could buy at a halal butcher, comes from an animal that suffered as it died.

Yes, Vick broke the law; yes, he arrogantly lied and refused to apologize when first caught; and yes, his actions before and after the dog killings indicate he is one stupid, stupid man. But Vick's lawbreaking was relatively minor compared to animal mistreatment that happens continuously, within the law, at nearly all levels of the meat production industry, and with which all but vegetarians are complicit. There is some kind of mass neurosis at work in the rush to denounce Vick, wag fingers and say he deserved even worse. Society wants to scapegoat Vick to avoid contemplating its own routine, systematic killing of animals. We couldn't all become vegetarians tomorrow: that is not practical. But American society is not even attempting to make the handling of meat animals less brutal, let alone working to transition away from a food-production order in which huge numbers of animals are systematically mistreated, then killed in ways that inflict terror and pain. We won't lift a finger to change the way animals die for us. But we will demand Michael Vick serve prison time to atone for our sins.

Legal note: Vick might be compelled to repay the Falcons a huge amount of bonus money, and will lose $25 million or more in endorsement income. I have no sympathy for his loss of endorsement income: Vick was hired to bring Nike and other companies he endorsed good publicity, and instead brought them bad. But think about the income loss in the calculation of overpunishment of Vick. One or two years in federal prison, and perhaps state prison time if state charges are filed as well; plus $25 million in lost endorsement income and, oh, $50 million in lost or returned NFL income. That's overkill! Often the indirect financial consequences of legal proceedings are worse than the official ones, in the same way that a speeding ticket might cost you $75 but add $1,000 to your annual insurance bill.

In effect, the federal indictment of Vick is resulting in him being fined around $75 million, which is far too much retribution. The legal hang-up is that since 1984, federal courts have been forbidden to consider monetary loss in private life as counting toward punishment. But a year of banishment from the NFL, a guilty plea with suspended sentence and probation (meaning the sentence is imposed if probation is violated), seems plenty of punishment for a first offense by someone who has not harmed another human being. Prison time and a $75 million fine? What Vick did was indecent, but now excessive punishment is being imposed, and two wrongs do not equal one right. Justice, after all, must be tempered with mercy. That's what you would think if you stood in the dock accused.

Hypocrisy note: Look who's advertising on a Web page extolling the cruel crossbow killing of animals for sport (http://hunting.about.com/od/arch/l/aa020716a.htm) -- the NFL. Oh, that Michael Vick, he's evil, he's bad. But buy NFL Shop items to wear when you shoot deer with arrows so they slowly bleed to death!

Its a simple lesson...want to make millions playing in the NFL? Don't F#$% with dogs. If I was to electrocute, drown, or physically pick up a deer and repeatedly slam it on the ground till it died, I too would be arrested and put in jail. Vicks case sure brings out a ton of far fetched comparisons from a few people...while many many people all feel the same..what Vick did was deplorable. That article is a joke.

I am at a loss to explain the twisted thinking folks display regarding Vick's monetary losses. He was paid bonus money in return for services, and being unable to provide those services (due to his own behavior violating the law) he is going to be asked to return some of the money. What is the problem with that?

Because we have a country of "jock sniffers", that think athletes walk on water.
The cruelty the Vick showed towards these animals was above and beyond what is done to other animals in the name of sustenance.
Hell, he didn't even eat the dogs after killing them....

That article is one continuous non-sequitur. Therefore, I'm going to enjoy a cheeseburger today.

I have a craving for steak!

Because we have a country of "jock sniffers", that think athletes walk on water.Exactly. Pay them a fortune, cheer them everywhere they go, and then it seems like it's been the die hard fans who think we're being too tough on the poor guys when they can't follow the law. Sorry, but there's no excuse for Vick. You can't even blame it on life conditions or him needing the money. He broke a very clear law - and not one of those ones that's easy to break like speeding or loitering in the wrong spot. This isn't, "oops, how'd those dogs get in there?" In my not so humble opinion should be punished especially harshly because of his celebrity status and potential role as a hero/role model.

I was down in Richmond for the trial, and I couldn't believe my eyes at the hundreds of people wearing "We believe you didn't do it Michael" T-Shirts.

There is a big difference between what we need to do versus killing for the sheer cruelty of it.

On a side but related note, anyone watch Saturday Night Live recently? They had a recap of some great sketches of the past few years. Take a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjtVnqZCndo

He may have been a first time offender, but that doesn't mean he's not stupid as shit and thought he was above the law.

*edit* Comparing one bad act to another doesn't make the first bad act any worse also. I'm sure PETA is trying to right all of the wrongs in that first article ... you just don't hear about it, and don't care, because a rich quarterback isn't involved. Doesn't mean its not happening.

I was down in Richmond for the trial, and I couldn't believe my eyes at the hundreds of people wearing "We believe you didn't do it Michael" T-Shirts.

Reminds me of the OJ Simpson trial. I had nurses at work who believed he was innocent and they even learned about DNA in nursing school! People can completely amaze me sometimes. Just goes to show you how folish humans can be. *sigh*

I'm sure PETA is trying to right all of the wrongs in that first article ... you just don't hear about it, and don't care, because a rich quarterback isn't involved
Pffft... PETA is a terrorist organization that kills tons of animals every year, and they have one of the biggest hypocrites working for them ever (Mary Beth Sweet). They're all about the money, propoganda, image and spin.

From the main article: Hunters shoot animals for sport.

Who here has shot an animal? I have, and when you do it right, they're alive for a lot less time than a dogfight would last after you shoot them. Also, there are tons of programs throughout the country in place for people who want to hunt but can't handle/don't want the meat from their hunts to donate their kills to homeless shelters and soup kitchens. Yeah, feeding the hungry is eactly the same as dog fighting. Comparing this to putting two animals into a cage to battle each other is comparing apples to oranges. I suspect the author is trying to stir up some shit and nothing more.

Being hit in the head with a powerful piston -- does that sound a bit painful, a bit cruel?
No, if you're hit in the head /really/ hard with a piston, you're knocked senseless.

You know what? Screw it, this article is bringing the stupid in more ways I can count. Yes, there is a point to be made about animal slaughter, but come on, there are better ways to do it.

Right or wrong, I agree with Kanyli...celebrities are held to a different standard all the time though typically it's the other way (they get off) I'm very happy to see him being punished. But, egads to the people trying to say what he did is the same as mass killing chickens for chicken breasts or hunter shooting deer for deer bologna. WTF, wake up America.

I still think this whole thing is stupid.

Just to make things clear, basically everyone is arguing that the 'value' in killing results from utility.

I'm from Missouri. I've shot plenty of animals. I'm not an expert shot, as I'm sure most of you aren't as well. Have you ever hit a deer and had it fall instantly? Those mother fuckers run for their lives until they tire out or expire. OMG HUMANE!!11 If you think most deer meat ends up in a homeless shelter or whatever you are kidding yourself.

Killing for food... We've all seen the peta videos. I cannot comment first hand on how animals bred strictly for consumption are treated, but I can imagine it's not very good.

We've bred different animals for different things. Chickens and swine we consume - dogs are used for hunting and partnership. I do not think that this makes one intrinsically superior to the other. All these hardcore dog supporters then, are basically saying that they protest actions against animals that were not intended in WESTERN culture - because dogs did not always hold this elevated spot so dear to our hearts.

Yes, you can sensationalize that acts committed upon these dogs. In other countries where they eat dogs, how do they handle the killing? If a dog is used for food in China and is killed in the same manner we slaughter chickens, what is the difference? If you saw a video of hundreds of dogs being killed overseas in typical American fashion, would there be this outcry that there is over Michael Vick?

Its a simple lesson...want to make millions playing in the NFL? Don't F#$% with dogs.

I completely respect your opinion, but it mirrors the public sentiment of America so I'll use it as an example. Dont fuck with dogs. Period. Don't think about any possible hypocricy or misguided logic, JUST DONT FUCK WITH SPOT. Then everyone pats themselves on the back because 'America feels the same way!' America re-elected Bush - 'nuff said.

American culture: dogs = Lassie, Rin Tin Tin, Underdog, Scooby Do, Marmaduke, SNOOPY!!, and countless other comic and cartoon variations, which we are introduced to as children and which forms to a great extent our attitudes toward dogs.

Michael Vick lives in America and was raised with the basic standards of American culture and society values, as far as I know. It does not matter what an Asian family is having for dinner tonight or how it was brought to the table. This situation has only to do with American culture and values, and the violation of same.

Because he has violated terms of his contract with the NFL and the Falcons, he will be punished harshly, in monetary terms. He made the decisions that led to this punishment; he is not a goddamm victim here.

Hopefully this case will be added to the pile that is being prepared to attempt to put a halt to signing bonuses, particularly with regard to the newly drafted players who play these silly hold out games for a bigger signing bonus even though they have yet to prove themselves in the NFL. Look at how many of those rookies the last 5 or 6 years turned out to be nothings once they reached the professional level. Maybe by saving some of that bonus money they can keep ticket prices from skyrocketing even further, or pay per view, to offset those monies.

But I have digressed to another topic, so will close.

The sooner he's banned for life from the NFL the better.

amen btw Byl.

Fandros

Who here has shot an animal? I have, and when you do it right, they're alive for a lot less time than a dogfight would last after you shoot them. Also, there are tons of programs throughout the country in place for people who want to hunt but can't handle/don't want the meat from their hunts to donate their kills to homeless shelters and soup kitchens. Yeah, feeding the hungry is eactly the same as dog fighting.

What on earth does feeding the hungry have to do with hunting? Outside of living in a shack wwaayy out in the middle of nowhere, if you want food, you can go buy it in a store for a tiny fraction of the effort and time needed to go hunting.

This situation has only to do with American culture and values, and the violation of same.
And this situation is pointing out the glaring hypocrisy in our culture and values.

If I took a labrador retriever, killed it with the halal slaughter method, and ate it, people would be outraged. Yet those same people could care less if It was a cow, even though both animals went through the exact same ordeal.

P.S. Peta is batshit insane and I see no issue with the money he's losing.

Edit: One paragraph was a bit iffy, so i got rid of it.

Come on. I grew up with hunters. They don't kill deer to eat the venison. They kill deer to mount the head of the buck with the most points and brag.

I'm not cool with what Vick was into, and I'm not cool with dog fighting. However, our society's hypocrisy surrounding the issue is ridiculous.

Hypocrisy would be if I said hey you can't dog fight, then went home and had dog fights. Hypocrisy isn't hey you broke the law dog fighting, then I went home and slaughtered a cow. WTF are guys smoking?

.

If I took a labrador retriever, killed it with the halal slaughter method, and ate it, people would be outraged. Yet those same people could care less if It was a cow, even though both animals went through the exact same ordeal.



Some people might be outraged.
Others wouldn't care at all.
In my mind, if you just killed an animal to kill it, I would be outraged.
If you killed it and ate it because you were hungry, then I wouldn't have an issue.
Vick didn't do any of that. If he were killing a dog, to sustain himself or his family, then I'd say, more power to him.
I'd have the same problem if he were fighting 2 bulls, and killed the ones that didn't perform, just because he was upset with them.

Come on. I grew up with hunters. They don't kill deer to eat the venison. They kill deer to mount the head of the buck with the most points and brag.

Pretty much everyone I work with is a hunter and I am the lone liberal ( by their standards ) that argues with them about gun rights ( I personally think the NRA is a criminal organization ). But I have to come to their defense on that statement, I can't think of a single hunter that I know that doesn't stock their freezer full of meat for their families during hunting season. Sure, the prize buck is point of conversation with them, but it isn't the end all be all that you make it out to be either.

Hypocrisy would be if I said hey you can't dog fight, then went home and had dog fights. Hypocrisy isn't hey you broke the law dog fighting, then I went home and slaughtered a cow. WTF are guys smoking?

Statement 1: Animal cruelty is horrible and disgusting!!!

Statement 2: Who cares about animal cruelty, no matter the level of treatment, if we do something specific with the corpse after the animal dies?

:rolleyes:

Its all about the food chain and the "LAW". Dog > Cow.

Once again you seem to be suggesting "THE LAWS" are infalible. And now the "food chain" is what we use to choose what animals we should empathize with and protect, and which ones can be mistreated with no limits.

If there ever was a time to use the Head in Hands ascii, now would be it.

No...sorry you not going to get me or I could say the MAJORITY of this country to simpathize with you. Dogs > what we eat. Laws protect certain animals and other animals are food. Its that black and white. I hunt and laws protect hunting...the animals hunted and the hunters themselves. You one of the few that want to equate an earth worm to a domesticated animal that resides in millions and millions of homes across this country. Take a look around buddy...Pet world, Pet Saver...look down the isles and isles of dog food, toys, and other means to take care of dogs. I am ok if you don't want to eat chicken, beef, or Pork. Its more for me...and damn it if you hear of someone killing one for fun and letting it rot in the back yard....please turn them in because they are breaking the law.

From my personal experience, I'm still very much unconvinced of the relative benevolence of the average hunter.

In my entire childhood, I literally cannot remember a single person bragging about how much venison they got out of a deer they killed. However, it was an hourly occurrence to hear about how many points the buck they killed (or wounded and never found) had.

I'm curious. If you wound one and it gets away (pretty damn common) to suffer for hours or days before dying, do you run down to the police station and turn yourself in for animal cruelty? Of course not.

I can tell you this: Smack a dog in the head and they yipe and tail goes down...obviously they are hurt.

Shoot a deer, and many many times they will continue to browse while they are pouring blood out the side and simply fall over dead with out a noise. Not saying they didn't feel it but they have some sort of pain tolerance thats not easily understood.

Sanchek you must hang out with some strange people...born and raised in Wisconsin which during rifle season will pour a million people into the woods hunting deer. Of course they talk about the horns but all them love the meat...love to bring in dishes they prepaired from it, love to have sausage made of it and share that as well. Sure there are the scumbags that hunt for trophy but you can be rest assured the meat is getting consumed one way or another. Wounded deer getting away being common? Once again must be the hunting crowd you have been exposed too...its not all that common were I am from.

I would try to turn my self in Sanchek but the lines would be to long with all the people who smash into deer with there cars on a daily basis that they would never take my statement.

Yes, we should all stop driving.
After all, Armadillos/Raccoons/Skunks/Oppossums/Deer = Dogs as well.
Of course, Granny from the Beverly Hillbillys had it right; she at least made roadkill stew out of what was hit by Jed's truck.

*in Jed's vouce*
ooooo doggy

I can tell you this: Smack a dog in the head and they yipe and tail goes down...obviously they are hurt.

Shoot a deer, and many many times they will continue to browse while they are pouring blood out the side and simply fall over dead with out a noise. Not saying they didn't feel it but they have some sort of pain tolerance thats not easily understood.
Dogs "trained" for fighting don't yipe and put their tail down. Does that make it okay to hurt them then?

Sanchek you must hang out with some strange people...born and raised in Wisconsin which during rifle season will pour a million people into the woods hunting deer. Of course they talk about the horns but all them love the meat...love to bring in dishes they prepaired from it, love to have sausage made of it and share that as well. Sure there are the scumbags that hunt for trophy but you can be rest assured the meat is getting consumed one way or another. Wounded deer getting away being common? Once again must be the hunting crowd you have been exposed too...its not all that common were I am from.
I grew up in rural Georgia. The hunters here could be completely different than the ones there. All either of us can accurately speak from is our personal experience.

Maybe these guys (http://www.monstermuleys.com/stories/thmstories.html) are just hunting to keep baby Timmy from starving. Hey, they're all out your way too!

I especially like the picture of them holding the dead head up and posing with it, with every story. You can tell they're just animal lovers... Dead animal lovers!

I would try to turn my self in Sanchek but the lines would be to long with all the people who smash into deer with there cars on a daily basis that they would never take my statement.
I don't think it makes much sense to compare accidents to tracking an animal down and shooting it.

Don't get me wrong. In the end, I think what Vick did was reprehensible. I hope he enjoys the showers in prison. I don't in any way support dog fighting.

However, most of the vehement opposition to dog fighting usually reads about like the support for Intelligent Design. There's very little rhyme or reason, when taken in a broader context.

Especially when people argue that it's because dogs are culturally special to us. How is this supposed to be compelling, when a lot of people claim dog fighting is a cultural thing too?

I don't think it makes much sense to compairing the illegal underworld activity of dog fighting and all its problems it brings to the communitys...animal shelters, drug addicts, organized crime ect...to hunting or eating chicken breasts.

Dogs "trained" for fighting don't yipe and put their tail down. Does that make it okay to hurt them then?


You know this from personel experience or are you guessing? All the documentaries I have seen about dog fighting or even pitbull rescues I frequent..my female came from one is full of dogs who are trained to fight but are obviously very hurt and they do show signs of it. Know this ...the only reasons those dogs will fight in the first place is to please the owner.

We can keep going back and forth on this all day long.

1. Killing an animal for sport is retarded and I regard those people as such. I eat everything I hunt and why not? Beef is a bit $$$.

2. Dog fighting is illegal do it and get caught...your going to get in trouble.

3. Do I have a problem with how chickens and cows are killed and processed? Not at all.

Thats my stance, you have yours and I'll have mine.

Personally, I do not hunt for several reasons that need not be gone into here. However, I have a number of friends and coworkers who are avid hunters, and while most do dream and talk of that trophy buck, they all primarily hunt for the venison. I hear much more talk during deer season about what kind of wood folks use for smoking jerky, or how they have their sausage seasoned, and so on, then I do about a buck's rack that someone shot somewhere.

And, due to the ever increasing insurance costs passed on to all of us from deer-car collisions, I fully support thinning out the herds.

Is that in some way hypocritical compared to my stand on dog-fighting? I don't think so, but I respect your belief if you do. We will simply disagree on this.

Maybe at some point in the future our cultural and societal values will have changed to no longer place animals on a hierarchy of most favored to least favored, and will simply respect the lives of all. But I figure to be wormfood before that way of thinking becomes commonplace; so, I look at the way of thinking that seems predominant in America, and act accordingly as it does not require me to do anything against my own values. I like meat. :cool:

Ibudin, Stephen Colbert salutes you. If this discussion ever comes up on his show, he can use everything you've posted as inspiration.

Edit: I insulted Steven Colbert, so fixed it.

I'm curious. If you wound one and it gets away (pretty damn common) to suffer for hours or days before dying, do you run down to the police station and turn yourself in for animal cruelty? Of course not.

No, if you're ethical, you go and get some friends and then go out and find the damn thing. Most deer are going to die within 250 yards of where they were shot if you're doing it right- a lot less if you're gun hunting.

Of course, if you're responsible about the whole thing in the first place, you wouldn't take a suspect shot at an animal in the first place and risk wounding it in such a way that it won't go down quickly.

Of course you can point to best practices that are relatively ethical and responsible, but that's not the point. You can point to best practices for raising Pit Bulls too, that don't include any of the things Vick did.

However, when bad things happen to Bambi, no one other than PETA really cares. When bad things happen to Lassie, people end up in prison. Therein lies the hypocrisy.

Actually, I think if they were to uncover an underground deer fighting ring (as laughable as that sounds) they would likely treat it in a similar fashion.

Why is it hypocritical for people to dislike one act over another?

What would be hypocritical is to not prosecute him for breaking the law and yet to prosecute others for breaking laws.

All this hypocritical BS is just that.....BS!

Two guys slugging it out in an alley will find themselves arrested, but if they fight inside a ring with an announcer, referee and cute girl parading around every few minutes holding a card up, then it is okay, and people can buy tickets to watch.

Our society has many examples of hypocritical behavior. So what?!?

The point is, we have laws, and breaking those laws with full knowledge that one is doing so gets one in trouble.

Two guys slugging it out in an alley will find themselves arrested, but if they fight inside a ring with an announcer, referee and cute girl parading around every few minutes holding a card up, then it is okay, and people can buy tickets to watch.

Wow... I couldn't think of a better example.
Owned!

So if they had a cute girl, parading around every few minutes holding a card up, Vick wouldn't have gotten in trouble?
Insofar as men fighting in a ring is concerned, the Nevada Gaming Commission, usually has a hand in on that; determining fair fights and condition of athletes, ect.
What if there was a way to make dog fighting non-lethal?
Do you think there would be a way to make moolah (since that is always the deciding factor) off of such a fight?

What if there was a way to make dog fighting non-lethal?
You mean like parading, climbing trunks, slaloming between flags and bringing back frisbees and rings? ;)

How about leather armor so bites are non-lethal....?
The dogs aren't having teeth removed, so it wouldn't be inhumane.
I mean, we put gloves on boxers so the hits are padded, why not figure out a way to do the same for dogs?
That way we can sell tickets, and have skantily clad women carrying cards over their heads every so often.
;)

Skantily clad bitches ?

Saturday night, I was sitting at the bar. On one of the ESPNs, they were still milking Vick for ratings. It was kinda late, so some of the ESPNs had the more obscure shows on. One of them was a hunting show.

They had hunters posing with their kills, doing that thing where they hold its dead head up and pose with it so you can see the size of its rack (just like the guys in that link I posted above, actually). All the while, lambasting Vick for killing animals on the next TV over.

I had to laugh.

However, when bad things happen to Bambi, no one other than PETA really cares. When bad things happen to Lassie, people end up in prison. Therein lies the hypocrisy.

Nah. I'd eat dog in a second if I wouldn't get in trouble for it. Same with horses. In fact, both (along with whale) are on my list of things to try when I travel around the world. It is all just protein.

Nah. I'd eat dog in a second if I wouldn't get in trouble for it. Same with horses. In fact, both (along with whale) are on my list of things to try when I travel around the world. It is all just protein.


There are some protein-sources that you would most likely prefer not sampling, when you travel around the world, so I suggest no drug smuggling in Turkey or other mid-eastern countries. :eek:

You can already eat horse in the U.S. No need to travel to another country.

I was thinking much like Sanchek the other night but a little backwards...while looking at the bear head on the wall that I mounted from last years kill...415# Boar, and while chewing on some bear burgers as my two dogs looked for scraps I couldn't all but think life is great.

Bear Burgers....well at least you used the whole thing....
;)
Did you do it manly style, and kill it with a bow?
:eek:

Did you do it manly style, and kill it with a bow?
:eek:

Manly would be with a knife... Or even bare hands!

Or you could kill a bear with kindness! oh wait, what happened to "Grizzly Man" again?

I did it with a 12 guage and about 20 yards from it, walking on the ground. It was over with fast and that was after my last day on stand for 10. Kicked him up on my way out of the woods.

Shooting bears with bows is a rough one. Its not to manly sticking one with an arrow, and when the fat closes up the hole so no blood comes out and in the start of fall in Wisconsin with leaves falling out of the trees which are brown, red, ect...its very easy to loose an animal. I wanted it dead and fast so with 3.5" Slugs, it was dead when I pulled the trigger.

By the way. You can't walk up to the counter in Wisconsin and get a bear tag. You have to apply yearly and in my case it took me 9 years to get a tag. The bear populations are monitored heavily from our DNR and small portion of tags are released for different zones every year. Its a very expensive hunt to take part in and pretty intense. It just so happens with warmer winters bear populations are beginning to boom and this is with yearly hunting. I've seen more sow's this year with twins and even tripplets than any other year. They are getting further south in Wisconsin than ever before and somee very large bears...600+# black bears are not all that rare anymore.

I always thought spear hunting polar bears would be the ultimate in manliness....

I think bear tastes nasty. It's very greasy and "gamey" in my opinion.

I never had the desire to get involved with the typical redneck ritual/tradition in my family of loading up and going out to hunt with my uncles and their dogs. But it was definitely a "family" thing. When everyone returned from the hunt be it bear, boar, or deer we would all converge at my grandmother's where the animal was laid out and "prepared". We did the same thing with cows and hogs that we raised as a family. One uncle had the hog pen, another had the cow pasture, and yet another had chickens. My family helped in the fattening up of the animals and when slaughter time came we met at my grannys and commenced to making bacon, sausage, burgers, steaks, fatback, livermush, etc.

These are my childhood memories of living in Western NC where hunting was just for food. Or sometimes my uncles were called on to rid a nieghbor of a wild boar running amuck in their garden. To us it was a way of life; right now I would bet $50 that my mom has inside her freezer some form of bear, venison, or rainbow trout. I joke with my niece and nephew and younger cousins that visiting granny was a treat.... one just never knew what might be inside her fridge. I can recall on more than one occassion opening it up to get some milk and findnig a boar head staring at me. "Granny what is this?" "Oh, I'm going to make some mush after while". Or perhaps the most traumatic memory was waking up one morning to hear *tap tap tap tap* *tap tap tap tap*.... I walked down the hall to the kitchen to see my uncle and grandmother miticulously hammering a squirrels head. "Um, what are you doing?" "Oh, I'm making dumplings, with squirrel brains". Up till this point I loved my granny's CHICKEN and DUMPLINGS that's what I was always told it was; I couldn't ever eat them again LOL. I used to live with my granny in the summers b/c my mom worked out of town; Beverly Hillbillies had nothing on her.

My uncles (had) a dog kennel that held 30 dogs that were used for hunting. All of this slowed down after granny was put in a home many years ago and eventually died and it came to a screeching halt last year when one of my uncles was diagnosed with cancer who died on Easter this year.

Some people hunt for sport, some people hunt for food, but for some people it was a family tradition. My uncles never stuffed heads or collected trophies; that's not what hunting was to them. I doubt that there will be any more hunting though b/c like me most of the kids just aren't into it and it's no longer a necessary means for survival. My mother and aunts do still have huge gardens and "can" stuff. But like hunting, I don't see that really passing onto the next generation in fact typing this makes me kind of sad; as I have come to realize that part of our family is dead. We certainly don't gather like that anymore; it's like granny was the glue. =\

Anyway, I'm not sure how all of this got on topic about hunting but I wanted to share some of my experiences.

I work with a guy that every Thanksgiving goes back home to W.Va to deer hunt with his family. If they get one they split it for meat and such; if they don't then there is always next year. He doesn't stuff or make trophies either. Come to think of it; I don't know anyone personally who does hunt and stuffs heads or who has some trophy.

Since I'm already writing a novel I will share another NC memory.

In college I had a friend whose family owned a chicken farm. They had 3 coops that could hold something like 20,000+ chicks. At their farm they raised them from babies (not eggs) to a certain age and then sold them to whoever for their final cycle of life before slaughter. I once asked her how that makes her feel knowing that those babies would eventually be mass slaughtered and wind up on her dinner plate. She told me it was just the way things were; her dad worked the farm now, her dad's dad did before him, and she would after she got married and graduated college. And that was just how things were; her children would continue on after her. It didn't bother her knowing those baby chicks would soon be slaughtered after they left her coops; it was just business and the way things are.

Personally, I cannot bring myself to take another animals life. Once I had the opportunity to shoot a wild wolf who had been running around my mom's terrorizing the neighbor's pets. It had even killed and eaten one lady's puppy. I decided I would take care of things so I loaded up the gun and hopped in the truck and drove to where the wolf was (wandering up the mountain). I found it got out and aimed the gun at its' head; the animal looked at me, then dropped its' head and trotted off. I just couldn't do it. It's not in me to be able to do that sort of thing. Now if I were in danger that is a different matter.

I think bear tastes nasty. It's very greasy and "gamey" in my opinion.
Depends how it is prepaired. If you don't trim off the fat it would literally ignite on the grill. Bear fat melts in your hands, it has a very low boiling point. Its lean but I find a lot of people don't like it. Burger seems to be the best and then sausage.

Well it could also be the memories of how awful they smell too; bears smell just plain nasty. :(

Fildien = Jethro?

:D

Fildien = Jethro?

:D

You say that like you don't know me. :D

Did you do it manly style, and kill it with a bow?

Bow hunting is considered "cruel" in some parts of Europe and is banned as a method for taking game. Funny, really.

If you can hit a bear with an arrow, and kill it in the first shot, you are manly.
Because if you miss, or God help you, wound it, you are in for a world of hurt.....

We certainly don't gather like that anymore; it's like granny was the glue. =\



How true this statement is, as I have seen it in countless other families. For many of us, although the numbers are rapidly dwindling, our grandparents were the link to history and tradition and the "old country". It was Grandma that had all the recipes in her head, or close at hand. I recall one of my sisters sitting and carefully taking notes of all the holiday preparations for a couple years, trying to ensure that these family recipes would not be lost.

My mother is carryng on the tradition of the family gathering hostess; but, as she is in her 70's now, I think we are coming to an end of this too. It seemed to be much easier when we were younger to make plans to be with family for the holidays, but now everything is so fast paced and the airlines are such a joke that it is easier having get togethers at off holiday times, which is not quite the same.

My suggestion to everyone is to spend as much time as you can with your grandparents while you are able, learn from them, listen to their stories, and have something to add to your own stories when it is time for you to pass them along.

My granny is 95 and calls me every name but my own!

My suggestion to everyone is to spend as much time as you can with your grandparents while you are able, learn from them, listen to their stories, and have something to add to your own stories when it is time for you to pass them along.

Just this past weekend went to the "Cannstater Volkfest" with my grandmother's sister and the rest of my family (all of my grandparents passed on when I was much younger or before I was born). Sat around all day drinking beer and telling stories ... it was wild to hear about my grandmother bringing her friends to the same Octoberfest and drinking beer with her friends 60 years earlier. Just wish I was old enough to appreciate my grandparents and think to ask them to tell all of their stories when they were alive :(

My Parents and Grandparents are all dead but I am lucky enough to remember the stories and to even have been part of some of them albeit in the late 60's and early 70's. I do miss the stories of my grandparents about the early 1900's, WW I, and the 20's and 30's. I also miss my dad's stories of the depression and of his travels during WWII along with my mothers about life on the homefront during the war.

It's strange but every once in awhile I'll have a dream about one of our summer family parties when I was a kid with all of the aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents and close family friends and I often think how if I could choose my last day on earth it would be there.

The WWI stories I would have heard about at the Cannstater's would have been fighting for the other side :( Oops! My great grandfather's brother flew with the Red Baron. My grandfather on the other side of the family made up for it though fighting for the US in the Pacific of WWII.

Grandparent memories > Michael Vick and animal cruelty.:cool:

Grandparent memories > Michael Vick and animal cruelty.:cool:

I blame Fildien!!!

I'll take that blame gladly! :D

My granny used to tell me about running moonshine, and pouring it into the tanks of model Ts. She also used to talk about her husband (my grandfather I never knew) getting into fights at every CVC camp he worked at. He eventually became a train engineer but he was a mean SoB his nickname was Hook b/c of his left hook haha.

I too wish that I would have taken more time to appreciate her stories; she was an amazing woman. As far as animal cruelty though I've seen her snap chicken heads and use garden hoes on copperheads and stray cats that were in her garden.

There it's back on topic! sorta...

Nothing wrong with taking care of vermin, espically if they are causing a problem with your livelyhood.
I was helping my roomate cut down the weeds in her back yard along with some of her friends, and 1 of them got bit by a pigmy rattlesnake.
A few days later, they killed the snake, when a tree crew was cutting down a tree in her yard.
While I feel badly the snake was killed, I certainly didn't want to wake up on a fall morning, with it curled up in bed with me.....

Dog fighting...Hunting...ethics.

<3 Ayro

Nothing wrong with taking care of vermin, espically if they are causing a problem with your livelyhood.
I was helping my roomate cut down the weeds in her back yard along with some of her friends, and 1 of them got bit by a pigmy rattlesnake.
A few days later, they killed the snake, when a tree crew was cutting down a tree in her yard.
While I feel badly the snake was killed, I certainly didn't want to wake up on a fall morning, with it curled up in bed with me.....

When I was a kid we used to beat copperheads and rattlers with rocks then put them in jars of formaldahyde. I never felt bad...and still don't.

Mike Vick gets 23 months. ouch!

... and more to come.

Mike Vick gets 23 months. ouch!They should convert that into dog years.

7 years for every human year if I remember correctly.....
Almost 14 years, that would be choice!

Good! :)

Even though he got 23 he's still gonna get slapped with probably 60 months (15 years possible) from the state and that 23 months will be consecutive. That trial starts April 2nd if they find a court room (Surry County's is under renovations).

Even though he got 23 he's still gonna get slapped with probably 60 months (15 years possible) from the state and that 23 months will be consecutive. That trial starts April 2nd if they find a court room (Surry County's is under renovations).

The sentences will not automatically run consecutively. It will be decided by the state judge if concurrent or consecutive sentencing is appropriate, as the federal case came first. And, a lot of weight is given to whether he starts serving the 23 months prior to the state case being tried, and how his record is looking and his attitude and demeanor.