For those who may have forgotten. (http://www.members.cox.net/classicweb/email.htm)

Halo would be choking.

That was nicely made but I don't think anyone is going to forget this for the next hundred of years thats if humanity live that long.

www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/me...index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/01/23/sprj.nirq.duelfer/index.html)

NO WOMD found .... ;)

:) "I don't think they existed," :) ;)


"Kay did praise the team's efforts. " :) ;)

wow, what a concept, posting about WOMD's in a thread about 911, hey while we are at it lets talk about aliens and anal probes, they seem just as much in line with the topic! jeesus your a retard hartmut

I irony is that he was the one yelling that Saddam and Bin Laden had nothing to do with each other. Hmmm Idiot.

I Hartlessmut's new name shall "Jedd jr." Way to go dipshit. You really have no idea do you?

Edit: Sorry for being uncivilized :(

Good linkage this.

I wonder if peoples sometime will think that 11th Sept was just made up, just like there is peoples today thinking that Hitler killing jews is a madeup story

The answer is in your question Tzad.

Goes along nicely with original post (http://www.pressaprint.com/som/WeSupportU2.htm)

Well, this was a good sign of my internet-jaded level. I kept waiting for something wierd to come up as a swerve, like how we shouldn't forget the matrix sequels sucking, or that cubs fan messing up the foul ball.

Was it like that for anyone else?

what was it we aren't supposed to be forgetting? I forgot.

Hopefully when the next 3 planes fly squarely up your ass, you'll remember.

This is a little reminder of why people.

Why what?

3,000 people died that day from that attack.
42,815 die every year from automobile fatalities.
2 million people died that year in the USA.

If an attack the size of the one on the twin towers happened every year in the USA, one in 600 Americans would die from a terror attack.

Low reliability, but lines up with other numbers I've seen:
Cardiovascular disease 948,088
Cancer (all types) 529,904
Pulmonary disease (emphysema, etc.) 101,077
Pneumonia and influenza 82,820
Infectious diseases (not AIDS) 70,143
Diabetes 53,894
Accidents other than motor vehicle 48,630
AIDS 43,652
Motor vehicle accidents 41,893
Suicide 31,102
Homicide 26,009
Liver disease 25,209
Kidney disease 23,317

Fear is the mind killer. Never forget that: the fear caused by a terrorist attack is actually a larger harm than the horrible deaths caused by it.

Do not bend knee to tyrants, even if they promise you safety from the bogeyman. Those who give up a little liberty for the promise of security deserve and will recieve neither.

Homicide 26,009


More than 1 in every 10 murders in our country for that entire year were done by the same people on the same day, in a few hours time.

Fear is the mind killer.

We are not afraid we are pissed.

and quoting Dune is gay.

More than 1 in every 10 murders in our country for that entire year were done by the same people on the same day, in a few hours time.

Which is a sad thing.

We are not afraid we are pissed.

Silly and ineffective random security measures are an example of being pissed?

Banning toe clippers from airplanes is being pissed?

Being pissed is a good reaction. Being afraid, dismantling rights of the people and removing obligations from the government to the people, in the name of safety, is idiotic.

That is what most of the warnings in that flash animation are trying to say. The Domestic danger to freedom in the USA is far greater than the Foriegn danger -- don't be fooled into thinking the USA is so weak that religoius fanatics in caves or in airplanes are actually a real danger.

and quoting Dune is gay.

Yes, the Dune quote was over the top.

I would argue that it wasn't very homosexual.

I could cut ya up real nice with a set of sharpened toenail clippers.

OMG THEY TOOK AWAY MY RIGHTS TO BRING EXPLOSIVES AND KNIVES ON A PLANE! FUCK ME! WHAT EVER SHALL I DO!?! I KNOW ILL SHOW UP AT THE AIRPORT WITH A SHARPENED TOOTHBRUSH IN MY POCKET AND THEN BITCH WHEN THEY SAY I CANT HAVE IT! MY RIGHTS ARE TEH INFRINGED! HELP HELP ACLU! IM GOING TO SUE THE AIRPORT FOR THE MENTAL TRAUMA OF NOT BEING ABLE TO HAVE MY SPECIAL TOOTHBRUSH ON THE PLANE!


We have had to adapt the rules, to suit the current situations. If you can't adapt with them, thats your problem. Just don't get my flight canceled when you decide a x-acto knife is approprate carry on baggage.

Why what?

This was a little post for folks who you hear bitching and moaning about the war on terror. whether it's just or not just. Whether we accomplished our mission or not. Those people need a reminder of why. And yes it's supposed to make you mad as hell. If it doesn't well then.....maybe YOU'RE a terrorist?

We have had to adapt the rules, to suit the current situations. If you can't adapt with them, thats your problem. Just don't get my flight canceled when you decide a x-acto knife is approprate carry on baggage.
Your such a mindless moron. Do you even realize that as rules are made they restrict your life? The more rules the less freedom. Very few rules GO AWAY. So as time passes your freedom becomes more and more limited till eventually one day there is very little difference between your freedom and others slavery.
The people who wrote the constitution REBELLED against the government over a TEA tax. You take major freedom loss right up the ass and say we are all assholes for not sucking ass with you.

Do you even realize that as rules are made they restrict your life?

Huh, I have not noticed one loss of my "rights or freedoms" from the Patriot act. Of course i'm a law abiding American sooo I see no problem.

Sorry for double.

Just saw this.

A Patriot Act issue. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,109541,00.html)

I have no beef with this as all. If anything it shows the check and balance system works well. So much for NOT protection "rights" eh?

Do you even realize that as rules are made they restrict your life? The more rules the less freedom.

Ok, so no rules at all? Unchecked freedom at any cost?

I will inform my violent homophobic friends about that, they will like your idea very much. Do you prefer Aluminum or wood baseball bats?

Prohibition went away. Segregation went away. If it's bad enough, the people will MAKE it go away. As did your tea tax example. I don't see any revolutionary wars starting over the Patriot Act.

Major freedom loss? Please. I'm not a fan of ALL the parts of the Patriot Act, but a majority of it I'm for.

The people who wrote the constitution REBELLED against the government over a TEA tax.

Looks like someone got the majority of their historical concepts from a Disney movie.

Freedoms taken away because you can't take toe clippers on a plane? Take your toenail clippers and catch a Greyhound. Your ability to own and operate such implements has not been restricted. It is your right to not take the plane if you don't like their rules.

"I have never had a single abuse of the Patriot Act reported to me. My staff e-mailed the ACLU and asked them for instances of actual abuses. They e-mailed back and said they had none." Sen Dianne Feinstein (D)

"[T]he FBI could get a wiretap to investigate the mafia, but they could not get one to investigate terrorists. To put it bluntly, that was crazy! What's good for the mob should be good for terrorists." - Sen Joe Biden (D)

"Most of [the Patriot Act] has to do with improving the transfer of information between CIA and FBI, and it has to do with things that really were quite necessary in the wake of what happened on September 11th." - Sen John Kerry (D)

"We simply cannot prevail in the battle against terrorism if the right hand of our government has no idea what the left hand is doing." - Sen John Edwards (D)

"Much of the criticism of the [Patriot Act] has been shrill and ill-informed." - Sen John Edwards (D)

"...criticism of the Patriot Act has been ill-informed and overblown..." - Sen Joe Biden (D)

"there is substantial uncertainty and perhaps some ignorance about what this bill [the Patriot Act] actually does do and how it has been employed." - Sen Dianne Feinstein (D)

"[T]he measure that passed and was signed into law appropriately balances security and liberty." - Sen Joe Lieberman (D)

....

It's remarkable how people can change their minds after they decide they want to campaign in an election they have absolutely nothing to run on but lies and false accusations...

Since others have taken this away from the original video link, (which I did appreciate, btw), yeah, it's amazing... the lies that is...

"The Iraqi regime ... possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons." -- George W. Bush

"We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas." -- George W. Bush

"We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States." -- George W. Bush

"The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. ... Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons." -- Cincinnati, Ohio Speech, October 7, 2002 -- George W. Bush

"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent." -- State of the Union Address, January 28, 2003 -- George W. Bush

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." -- Address to the Nation, March 17, 2003 -- George W. Bush


"After repeatedly linking Saddam Hussein to Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden in his justification for war, the President now admits there was no such link.” ... "When Ambassador Joseph Wilson publicly challenged the Administration for wrongly claiming that Iraq had purchased uranium from Niger for its nuclear weapons program, the Administration retaliated against his wife, potentially endangering her life and her career." ... "The threat he [Saddam Hussein ] posed was not imminent. The war has made America more hated in the world, especially in the Islamic world. And it has made our people more vulnerable to attacks both here and overseas."
-Sen. Kennedy

(all lifted from DU.com, but there you are--makes it no less true)

As the video alludes to, lest we forget. Tyrany and deception takes on many faces. How many have died for Dubya's lies, and what is yet to come?

Yeah, cause after all it's not like the federal government has locked up an American citizen without charge and held him in a military brig for over a year with or anything...

Oh wait...

During the American Civil War the right of habeas corpus was upheld by the US Supreme Court, but this is a "war on terror" so I guess that makes it all OK.

Last I checked marshal law hadn't been declared, so I don't see why the Executive Branch of the federal government thinks they can get away with this.

During the American Civil War the right of habeas corpus was upheld by the US Supreme Court, but this is a "war on terror" so I guess that makes it all OK.

The Patriot Act allows citizens to be held without charges and prevents due process? I never knew that. You wouldn't happen to be able to show me where it says that in there, because I admittedly have not read the entire law and must have missed that. Hell, the ACLU must have missed it too. Please be sure to email them with your findings.

PS -
1.) Executive branch did not create and pass the Patriot Act, that's the Legistlative side of the house.

2.) I think you were looking for "Martial", not "Marshall" Law.

3.) I agree with what I assume to be your premise. Joe Padilla should not have been held without proper legal proceedings, court, lawyers, etc. That was an exceedingly stupid play. If done right (and in Texas), he'd be "well done" on the 'lectric BBQ by now.

Silly and ineffective random security measures are an example of being pissed?

We are not afraid we are pissed.

Silly and ineffective.

That's fear.

Banning toenail clippers is an example of America's fear.

I'm so happy that America is pissed at toenail clippers. I mean, THOSE EVIL TOOLS OF THE DEVIL!H!!H!!

America is afraid. And they shouldn't be. Nobody is going to hyjack any American commercial plane and turn it into a missile with tooth picks, box cutters, explosives or guns. Because the people of America now know the game.

Meanwhile, security guards waste their time searching for nailfiles.

Huh, I have not noticed one loss of my "rights or freedoms" from the Patriot act. Of course i'm a law abiding American sooo I see no problem.

I mean, if they made everyone in, say, Alaska, slaves, this would probably pass your test.

I mean, you personally wheren't effected by it, so it must not be happening.

So, have you tried to demonstrate against bush recently at a political ralley? Did you notice you where standing in a fenced-off parking lot out of the line of sight of the ralley?

Oh wait. People who demonstrate against Bush are not "law abiding Americans". They are all liberal traitors (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1400050308/103-6225146-4692661?v=glance), unlike you.

Liberty matters. Your Liberty, your neighbours Liberty, your political opponents Liberty, the Liberty of the theif down the block.

Last I checked marshal law hadn't been declared, so I don't see why the Executive Branch of the federal government thinks they can get away with this.

Because the Justice department can just ignore the Judicary.

What is the Judicary going to do, send in the troops?

The Patriot Act allows citizens to be held without charges and prevents due process? I never knew that.

Who cares what act or what justification is used?

Banning toe clippers from airplanes is being pissed?

RUNNN!! HE'S GOT A TOE CLIPPER!!!


Regards,
Xyhoer

Wasn't there a company, while toeclippers and toothpicks weren't allowed, serving meals with steel fork and knife?

Banning toenail clippers is an example of America's fear.

I'm so happy that America is pissed at toenail clippers. I mean, THOSE EVIL TOOLS OF THE DEVIL!H!!H!!

I am looking at a set of toenail clippers this second. I have a Swiss-Army knife in my pocket as I type this. I have a pistol sitting on top of my fridge. I have a gun cabinet full of firearms. NONE of these items are banned to the public. They are banned on COMMERCIAL AIRLINERS. If you don't like that, then don't ride on COMMERCIAL AIRLINERS! I could even go out and get a plane right now, put my knife, my guns and my precious toenail clippers in it and fly around all day. Know what? I am allowed to do that, because THE US GOVN'T HAS NOT BANNED NAIL CLIPPERS. Jesus people, get me a cocktail napkin and a 24-pack of Crayola and I'll DRAW YOU A FUCKING MAP FOR CHRIST'S SAKE.

So, have you tried to demonstrate against bush recently at a political ralley?

Have you? Which one did you go to?

Did you notice you where standing in a fenced-off parking lot out of the line of sight of the ralley?

Hahaha. OK, yeah I heard about this. Which one were you at? (Nice reference to Ann Coulter. I'm actually in the middle of that book right now. Fun read - you care to point out where she's wrong in any of her facts?)

...your neighbours Liberty...

Wait a minute. Are we taking domestic advice from a FOREIGNER? Aside from agreeing that "liberty matters", are you FROM here? All this whining, and you're not even FROM HERE? If not, we appreciate your concern, but we've got it handled. Why don't you spend your precious complaining time whining about the hole in the ozone, or Kyoto, or something like that. We here in the US have the "protecting liberty" market cornered. Thanks all the same.

Because the Justice department can just ignore the Judicary.

What do you think you mean by this? When you say silly things, it's best to explain the point a bit more, as people's first reaction is to just make fun of your misconception. I admit it was my first instinct...but I managed to suppress it and be nice.

Who cares what act or what justification is used?

Well, the reason it was brought up was because we were DISCUSSING the Patriot Act! How crazy of me to bring up the Patriot Act when that was the subject! A thousand pardons for addressing the topic at hand. I'll see about avoiding it in the future.

Cheers!

www.tsa.gov/public/interweb/assetlibrary/Permitted_Prohibited_12_18_2003.pdf (http://www.tsa.gov/public/interweb/assetlibrary/Permitted_Prohibited_12_18_2003.pdf)

The person I was refering to was Jose Padilla.

He has been held without charge for over 2 years now.

Sure this isn't part of the current "Patriot Act", but still he is being held. That was my point.

I'm sure there is clause buried in "Patriot Act 2" to accomidate sitations such as this.

At least the Judicial Branch (U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit) is looking into this issue now and it appears likely headed to the supreme court.

Because hes such a fucking MODEL citizen. (http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/crime/terrorists/jose-padilla/)

Well then charge him, convict him and throw away the key.

That's how it works in this country... or at least it used to.

As a side note, I'm amazed at some of the stuff you can still bring on a plane.

All I need is a book and my reading glasses. They are plastic, so no worries there, though once I say MacGyver do something with reading glasses that was pretty scary.

Nobody is going to hyjack any American commercial plane and turn it into a missile with tooth picks, box cutters, explosives or guns. Because the people of America now know the game.

Huh? Explain that please, because it doesn't make any sense. Just because people have seen it on a large scale,doesn't mean it won't happen again.

There are laws that enslave men and laws that set them free.

FREEEDOMEEEEE!!!!!!

The "We support you" one still makes me cry.

I am just a random atheist europe guy that is getting pissed at how USA treats the world.

If this continue, it wont be long before the WORLD will rise up and put you to your place.

In my eyes you 2nd WWs Germany. Why?
It is simple. You act like they did. Supporting your lameass president to whatever war campain he wants.

Lets take latest one... Iraq
Now again, what was the reason you guys decided (WITHOUT UN support) to attack Iraq? Couse they MIGHT have a nuclear weapons.
In your stupidity you fail to realise what you do.
Just check similarity with following metaphore.

Its like i acuse you of having a weapon that you maybe will use on someone innocent. I get police to turn your place up, the find nothing. I am still not satisfied so i decide to break into your house, beat you sensless and check my self for a weapon that you might have. I find nothing but i explain to everyone that it didnt matter. You were a bad person that terrorised your home and everyone is better of with out you.
Oh, may i add that i was the one that made you incharge. And that after kicking your ass i decided that whatever i needed in your home was mine to take despite the fact that it belonged to the people living there.
Why did i do that to you and your people?
COUSE I COULD!!! Not to add it boosted up my crashing ecomomy.


I just say, if you piss on someone elses back yard, dont be supprised when someone pisses at yours.

Seriously i AM sorry for the innocent people that died.
But you had it comming.

So, before you irritate half of the world PLEASE stand back and think for a sec? I know most of you are reasonable but you have been brainwashed.

Again, its like in 2nd WWs Germany. They have been brainwahed to follow Hitler blindly. As you follow Bush now.


PWNED, kk ty

See, this is why we have to make fun of Hungarians.

God, is it something in your fucking water?

Hungarian my ass. Altho their girls do look horny on Roccos movies.

Crap another 1 that likes to compare us to Germany and Hitler, lets all just give up and beg the world for forgiveness. Btw for most Americans I know and I know a few, if you take how much an oppinion like that counts and a bag of crap you'll get...yes a bag of crap

lol, beg the world for forgiveness...

just stay on your fukkin continent please, kk, ty

If this continue, it wont be long before the WORLD will rise up and put you to your place.

Go for it.

As for your other arguments, your just restating the same fucking shit that has been going for months, just with more of the typical brainless and baseless accusations.

Now get the fuck outta here before you get your candy ass broke.

OMG YOU ARE TEH PEWNEOED! IAMNOTTHEUNDARSTAND!?!huhu!!

Now get the fuck outta here before you get your candy ass broke.

so easy to threat people trough internet.
PLEASE lemme touch your internet-muscles. mmm

posting like MarzMartini only proves my point,
where the the intellegent people?

Bet if you came here I could knock your dick in the dirt. Anyone care to prove me wrong? I love a good fight. Anyways as for you Hilliry, or what ever your name is, it's the same old fight that we have beaten to death with all the other euro trash with... Trust me you'll loose. Ask Jedd, Trilkin, Ytrok, Halo. If you have have honest discussions great lets hear it. If your here to troll you'll loose. NO ONE beats Americans at flaming. Have a nice evenin' sir, or ma'am or what ever.

Illiry i agree with you on many of your points, but I don't belive that america deserved 9-11.

Yes for one I can see how America is brainwashed like Hitlers Germany, but not to the extent it was.

I feel that Americans have alot of anger to terrorism and choose unwise decisions that only lead to more terrorism , american deaths, innocent deaths, unstable economy and increase paranoia of terrorist attacks.

It's clear to me everyday that Retaliation is not the way to solve conflicts, I dont understand how many more innocent Us soldiers and innocent Iraq people have to die before you call things even.

I may not agree with why America invaded Iraq, nor can it be justified to me, but on some primal level I can understand why they did.

as for many of the intellegent posters on this board, people who seem threating or ones who feel their opinions are superior such as Marz do not let intellegent converstations start.

Its pretty much have this one opinion or as so Marz put it so nicely "Now get the fuck outta here before you get your candy ass broke".

>where the the intellegent people?

why are you looking to become intelligent? or did intelligence fly by you and you cought a wiff, and some how you think you're a regular einstein? obviously your not, hehe put us in our place? :eek i can see us trembling at the thought of random europeans hating us

so lets test your intelligence, lets compare a country, now 70 years later, who took a dictator off his throne (who killed millions of his OWN people), who wanted to commite genicide, WITH a dictator who started one of the bloodiest wars ever, who TRIED to commit genecide and rule over europe, who wrote a diary with the mentality of an insane person who all he wanted to do was kill jews (i guess we can replace Jew(s) with a single saddan hussein?)

remember this is your comparison, your the idiot who stated it along with a few other idiots, i think you need to move along in your own little world, have your own ficticous friends play ball with you, screw your ficticous wife, and play with your ficticous children, because sir idiot, you seem to think your in a ficticous world

or are you just dumb? probably

and you better freakin not be beo

babycakes, as much as marz wants to spread his opinion, to even compare an intelligent conversation with the one illry posted is absured, what he posted was just pure un-backed bull shit with random rantings


>Its like i acuse you of having a weapon that you maybe will use on someone innocent. I get police to turn your place up, the find nothing. I am still not satisfied so i decide to break into your house, beat you sensless and check my self for a weapon that you might have.

this is funny, concidering his house is the size of a country, has been known to build and use these weapons, and tell us NO HE DIDN"T HAVE THEM, then later finding out that he infact did them during desert storm, also if he didn't dick around so long and actually helped out instead of trying to delay the inspections things might of gone smoother...


> I find nothing but i explain to everyone that it didnt matter. You were a bad person that terrorised your home and everyone is better of with out you.

wow we agree, everything is better off with out him, i feel better off with out him, i'm fucking glad he got thrown away, but calling him bad is short cutting his massive killings of HIS OWN PEOPLE.


>Oh, may i add that i was the one that made you incharge. And that after kicking your ass i decided that whatever i needed in your home was mine to take despite the fact that it belonged to the people living there.

what? another baseless fact? OMG LOELZ

>Why did i do that to you and your people?
COUSE I COULD!!! Not to add it boosted up my crashing ecomomy.

yea crashing economy, good one, thats like calling my mom fat, then getting your ass beat because you thought you were tough enough to take my lunch money away.

i really like your "PWND kk thnx" at the end of your post, really makes you look intelligent, concidering you didn't "PWN" anyone but your self

Not me chief.

Gok I see your points,

I hate to comment on things that i have no control over, I just cant see how 2 wrongs can make a right.

I don't see this situation as good Vs Evil more Evil vs Evil which is really sad because I know beacuse of actions of few it affects many people.

No sir do I condone terrorists or any sort of terrorist act, but can you see the Iraqies taking the US invasion as a act of terrorism. I can, so does Illiry and many other people. I think that's his main point.

I just wish there was a simpler way of doing things but i guess there's not so I'll stfu :)

llliry shut the fuck up. If you take THAT crap as a threat, your more thin skinned than the gimps before you.

It's also easy to start pointless shit that has been beaten to death, as you have proved.

If you want to bring up the same old SHIT arguments, go look for the posts for the past SIX months here. Don't repeat the same crap, with an even more retarded spin.

babycakes i respect your opinion, as i do respect many other's opinion.

a post made in greate haste (ack) to attack someone or something just as illiry did only gets the same type of attack back, marzin put less words in his attack then illiry, does that make him less apropriate? in this case i don't think so. These attacks are getting old, and they seem to get gimpier, they open up a can of worms and wonder why people treat them like shit, very frusterating at times.

6 months? We can barely go 2 months without some newbie trying to start ignorant shit.

do not let intellegent converstations start.

Wrong.

I don't let the same BULLSHIT (and you KNOW it's bullshit) America bashing threads that we have had every day for YEARS start.

I love to watch the intelligent conversations unfold, such as the religion ones, as they provide me with other peoples opinons and insights to the subjects. Which I find both interesting and informative. People such as, Gulor, Fandros, Nydia, Bowler, etc. make these boards worthwhile to read.

But the 'I HATE AMERIKKA' shit is SO FUCKING OLD. ESPECIALLY when it's in the form of fucking comparing America or Bush to the Nazis or Hitler or some type of police state.

You know I had to take someone to the airport this week, and what I saw there disturbed me greatly.

You know those little plastic cases by the ticket counter showing you what you shouldn't bring as carry on? They had a chainsaw in there!

Now I'm pissed...since when can I not take my chainsaw as carry on? I love my chainsaw, and take it everywhere. How many people do you see murdered on airplanes with chainsaws?

Fuckin Patriot Act.

What gets me pissed now is the background check requirement!

I mean WTF! My credit report has NOTHING to do with my fitness as a traveler - which is one of the major things background check companies look at.

Total bullshit.

As far as Iraq goes - I’m an American and I believe what we did to Iraq is wrong - pure and simple. The plain truth of the matter is that there is NO evidence, despite Bush going thru several chief inspectors, of ANY WMD in Iraq. It was a sad day when America went against the world consensus and invaded Iraq :(

Just my 2 cents - which, I am proud to say, I can put in without fear because I live and work in the United States of America!


Just my 2 cents - which, I am proud to say, I can put in without fear because I live and work in the United States of America!

PEWNEOED

LOVE the new word Marz <3

what was the reason you guys decided (WITHOUT UN support) to attack Iraq?

Perhaps your press or news is too biased to report Saddam's BRIBES (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=485407) to France and other antiwar voting countries?

Get a clue Illiry.

The plain truth of the matter is that there is NO evidence, despite Bush going thru several chief inspectors, of ANY WMD in Iraq.

No evidence Kalthis? Perhaps you missed David Kay's recent Senate hearing:

"We have had a number of Iraqis who have come forward and said, 'We did not tell the U.N. about what we were hiding, nor would we have told the U.N. because we would run the risk of our own' -- I think we have learned things that no U.N. inspector would have ever learned given the terror regime of Saddam and the tremendous personal consequences that scientists had to run by speaking the truth." - David Kay

Hmmm, hiding their porn collection from Blix? Hmm, perhaps they were hiding the bribes they were giving Chirac and Putin.

Nah, Saddam is the innocent victim of a US led invasion.

Ah I wish I had not gone back and reread your post Illiry.
Seriously i AM sorry for the innocent people that died.
But you had it comming.

Fuck you to hell and back again. May you be slowly drawn and quartered, and your remaining body parts rot on a pile of dog shit. May God help you if I ever meet you in person.

Yes, you ARE truly sorry. A very pitiful person indeed, and I thank God everyday we have people leading this country that are far better than you.

Now Majiolis wrote some more crap:
It's clear to me everyday that Retaliation is not the way to solve conflicts...
Perhaps we should meet diplomatically in Sweden with Bin Laden and discuss our terms of surrender. Maybe, just maybe, oh God please maybe the mean man would leave us alone from now on.
...I dont understand how many more innocent Us soldiers...
I thank God such men (and women) lived.
...and innocent Iraq people have to die before you call things even.
We'll let their soon to be representative elected government make that call. You know, that place Saddam used to call home.

First off I am a US citizen and don't condone terrorism.

BUT a lot of those quotes were from people fighting against the most powerful nation in the world. I bet the same slides can be show to people in afghanistan/iraq and other such places to rally up the troops.

...to rally up the troops.

You mean TERRORISTS don't you? Because you just said you didn't support terrorism, but you end your post by calling them "troops"

As if those homocide bombers are your heroes on equal ground with the thousands of real freedom fighters that gave their lives in uniform so that you have the fucking priviledge to be able to call yourself a citizen of the United States of America. You make me sick.

Down boy down...think maybe your taking what Silu said all wrong. Contrary to popular belief those countries do have standing armies also

Why do people (leftists) always think the Iraq war was for ONLY WMD's? Was it part of the equations, yes! Was it the whole reason no!!!!!!!!!! I could give a rats ass whether we find one bomb. For me this was totally justified the first time 10 some odd years ago I saw little babies dead in Kurdish mothers arms due to Saddam "ethnic clensing". They should have turned bahgdad into glass for that little stunt.

I am just glad to see there are still normal people living in US.
You know who you are!

When sons of those that put Saddam to rule start to cry about dead babies that died by the Saddams orders, i can't resist the sweet chill of irony down my spine.

I dont care for US. I dont hate it. I just want you to STAY ON YOUR FUKKING CONTINENT.



"We're not living in America, no we're not sorry!!!"

So "Living Anywhere but America, We are sorry"?

OK Illiry, it's time for me to put it to you how it is.

1- You and your entire country does not have as much control over the entire world as a single voter here in the United States. Recognize the reality for what it is, and learn to deal with it. There is no collective, magical-land “we” that can do anything to stop us. There is no “we'll show those guys” in your future. That underdog winning shit works great in the movies, but out here in the real world might does make right, and you can't do shit about it. Give up your storybook ending fantasy.

2- George Bush isn't like Hitler. The US is not like 1930's Germany. To state that is to be completely ignorant of history (which obviously is one of MANY subjects you are ignorant of.)

3- You shouldn't worry about the United States puttering around in Iraq. You should worry about the United States in about 15 years. That's when MY generation will be much more active in the political process. You need to forget about Bush, and start worrying about ME.

Here's why:

The people that started, maintained, created, built, and are still operating the US are people from around the world that left whatever situation they were in and came here. Facing the unknown to fight and win. Bravely risking all they had for the prospect of a better future. These were risk takers in an extreme manner. Darwin has been hard at work here in the US. It has been unforgiving for a long time. The weak were weeded out early. Those that were too secure, fat, dumb and happy in other countries stayed there. The best, bravest and toughest that the world's genetic pool had to offer came here. They came here, and were even further weeded out in the building of this nation. We are generating the new supreme beings. Übermensch, if you will. The funny part is, it's not one specific religion or one specific ethnicity. Hitler was an inept fool. The supreme race is not about eye-color or skin-tone or choice of god. It is about mind-set and willpower. Many here have it, and many of those elsewhere do not.

When my generation reaches political maturity, we will be given the power, honor and opportunity to lead the greatest breed of humans, from the greatest nation in the history of the world. There will begin a world-wide purge of the weak and senseless. We will succeed where others have failed. The people that do not pass muster will be utilized until they are no longer of use, and then eliminated. Those that are not in line with our goals will be eliminated. Those that cannot contribute in some manner, and will not be claimed to be the burden of someone else will be eliminated. There will be no discrimination by race, gender, age, sexual orientation, eye-color, hair-color, etc. This will be based on the will to do what must be done and wish the weak of the world to no longer burden our society and hinder progress. You think the US making changes in Iraq is “Hitler like” and the people of the US are like pre-WWII Germany? You have no idea. As we have grown weary of constantly explaining to the weak-minded people like you, I have decided to reveal our undeniable master plan for the world. The time for your so-called “peace” and supposed “rational discussion” to the detriment of innocents is soon to be over. If my generation cannot summon the courage to do this, then I have no fear for the future as we teach this philosophy to our children and to others' children. One generation will finally have the fortitude to take the step and cleanse the world of non-contributors, naysayers, and those of inaction. The very nature of man guarantees this ultimate outcome.

Ponder that, Illiry. Ponder that and reassess your fear and concern over those in charge now. We will no longer apologize to you and your ilk. We grow weary of it and have decided to make sure that our children and all future generations will not have to apologize to millions of weak-minded snivelers for merely having the foresight to defend ourselves. I would like, however, to thank you and your type for helping us make such a difficult decision. Your incessant harping will only make such outcomes a reality much sooner.

Now you have something legitimate to worry about.

Cheers,

hahahahahahah hahahahahahah

Resistance is futile?

llliry, your one sorry ass individual.

faust wins!

Talk about megalomania.

Yeah Faust, you will be incharge of death squadron that will purge the world and make it a better place.

And then you will have a child. That wont be uber by standards YOU put. And they will come. And you will just stand by as your death squad purges him....

IQ of a moron....

On the other side, purging isnt such a bad idea. Start in US killing 50% of popullation world likes to call "white-trash".

Try reading some. Explore.
You will find out that avarage IQ in the world is growing while, oh supprise, in US it actually shrinks. So start by purging yourself, eh Faust.

Seems like reasonable people decided NOT to post.
Now i know why.

Prepare to be roxed.

Those that know me probably realized that for what it is. A reaction getter. Looks like we caught us a winner.

On the other side, purging isnt such a bad idea. Start in US killing 50% of popullation world likes to call "white-trash".

The truth comes out. You don't mind people being killed as long as they are whites and not wealthy. Sounds to me like you're a racist cock. Either that, or you're just pissed because you KNOW I'm right and one of those "white-trash" people that you'd like to see killed has FAR more power and influence in this world than your entire government. LOL, hence the hatred for someone based on race and financial status. Your white sheet and pointy hat just get back from the cleaners?

You will find out that avarage IQ in the world is growing while, oh supprise, in US it actually shrinks.

And that's why we're the most powerful in the world and you're...uhh, where you from again? I see. Makes complete sense.

So start by purging yourself, eh Faust.

I just did. Might need to get your mother a moist towelette or damp washcloth to get the "results" out of her hair. (Sorry, cheap one, but it struck me as funny.)

Seems like reasonable people decided NOT to post.

From my elementary-school days, "You started it."

Illiary is a racists and has made comments that seriously offend me. This has created a hostile environment. I would like the moderators to seriously consider banning Illry for his inflammatory comments against American white people.

On the other side, purging isn't such a bad idea. Start in US killing 50% of population world likes to call "white-trash".

They should have turned bahgdad into glass for that little stunt.

And your moral stance and any logical opinion jumps out the window round about that comment.

Iliry you cant argue against them, they're so set in their fucked up "I am better than the rest of the world" mindset they dont stop to look at certain facts that are legitamately there againstn america. Looking through this board I see so much unconditional patriotism. Is this a good thing? In their minds, yes it is. But really its not. If my government were put against the spotlight, i'd say - hold on hey, you're right. But here, you might as well talk to a wall. Does being american really mean being a chameleon to adapt to whatever government is in power at the time? Or have people like akipt (see the thread of Marz's here) always been so ignorant of the fact that the other people in the world are just like them - except mostly better because of their mindset, and so quick to jump to "Oooohhhhhhh you did bad - your country is DEAD".
You can't get past the mindset - dont bother. What it would take was for them to take a step back, notice that no, its not a personal attack against them. Its a criticism of the government, are you the government akipt? If so i'm sorry. But to be so 100% for this government which OBVIOUSLY has some flaws makes me wonder what kind of propaganda you are being fed over there.

Again dont get me wrong like i know you were going to. Noone is saying Saddam Hussein didnt deserve the fate that he got, but being ignorant of the speculation from the rest of the world over one of *the most important reasons for going to war* which was the WOMD - because it invoked the fear that Saddam was actually a threat to the rest of the world, which he wasnt - so that people would come to america's aid for fear of being attacked themselves, is just plain stupid.

I notice your "same old same old" expression marz, that this has happened before. Just because you argued against the speculation so bitterly a million times in the past it doesnt make your opinion right. The new shit the "eurotrash" is coming out with wasnt out then, or maybe it was and then they are in the wrong. But i'd bet that if you were casually reading a post and some little sentence popped up "bush is an idiot" you would discount everything else in that post and focus on that one sentence. Is this a rational mindset? Again im not questioning your overall rationality but this blatant ignorance of any criticism of america certainly is not rational.

As for the eurotrash, why do you post this shit? What is the point? There is none. Recognising flaws in a foreign government that everyone probably recognises anyway is stupid, the people that agree already know, the people that disagree will come out and post hate posts. So really it comes down to getting attention.

faust wins!

Those that know me probably realized that for what it is. A reaction getter. Looks like we caught us a winner.

?

As for akipt, read through my posts in that thread where we had that little "duel" if you will. I stand by my first ones, i thought it was a misunderstanding and thats why i backed off but i see now that you really do have some problems. Restating my argument would be redundant, though.

but can you see the Iraqies taking the US invasion as a act of terrorism

Ummmmmmmmmmm No.......
Maybe Saddams cronies but but not the average Irapi citizen.

Don't get me wrong. I KNOW there are MANY things that America does that are fucked up. We are by no means perfect. And, I'll readily admit that. I also agree that blind patriotism is counterproductive, but everyone around here is coming off ANTI-patriotism. Like it's the devil to love your country. We got where we are today BECAUSE of patriotism. Without patrioitism, there is no cohesion in a country.

I'm not trying to prove my opinion is "right" by complaining about the repeatitive attacks. I (and probably everyone else) are sick and tired of the constant Hitler, Nazi, and other bullshit comparisons. There are some VERY good anti-America, anti-Bush, whatever debates here, but when someone comes in with the "IH8 Bush World Supercowboy Because He Kicked My Dog" line for their first post, it kind of sets the tone for the rest of the follow ups. It's more like a not-giving-a-fuck-anymore mindset. I can be rational (which is usually me just reading the threads and absorbing the info), or I can choose to be loud. Just like others can choose to start their posts off with "These are the reasons I hate Bush, or they go the other way and use "Bush Should Die! Amerikka is the suck!"

Grumblin,

Think a bit more when you post.

No American, but no one on these boards has talked about "unconditional patriotism".

"Does being american really mean being a chameleon to adapt to whatever government is in power at the time?"

Umm, we have elections to elect a leader....and Bush barely won. He has a, depending on what pole you look at, less than 60% aprroval rating...and that's considered good. I'm an American and amoung millions that hate Bush, but love our country!!

"its not a personal attack against them."

You are supporting a person that basically said, all Americans are stupid and should be killed and equated us to Nazis, Get a clue!!

I you want to come on here and criticize the American governments decisions regarding anything, feel free. I may even agree with some of your assertions, but as soon as you start calling me stupid, a sheep, blind, a nazi or anything else of the kind...be ready to get both barrels!!

"which was the WOMD "

In your mind, not everyones. I agree we were mislead by Bush regarding existing WoMD, but I'm not fooled for a second that that was his primary reason for going in. You need to stop seeing things in black and white.

"Recognising flaws in a foreign government that everyone probably recognises anyway is stupid,"

But that's not what has been happening. A fair number of these posts defame Americans as a whole and compare them to Nazis. I think Bush is an idiot too, but start calling my country Nazi and evil and me stupid and I will defend it with zeal!!

Iliry you cant argue against them, they're so set in their fucked up "I am better than the rest of the world" mindset they dont stop to look at certain facts that are legitamately there againstn america.

Alright Grumblin. I'll even be fair and *just* pick from this thread. Let's look at the "certain legitimate facts" from Illiry (since that's the one you addressed):

Illiry hit parade

- it wont be long before the WORLD will rise up and put you to your place. (Oh, wait, that's not a fact, that's just some asshole bleating.)

-You act like they did (WWII Germany). Supporting your lameass president to whatever war campain he wants. (Awesome job, Illiry! He warms to the audience by accusing them of blindly following a "lameass" president. Except, he's wrong. Unless he wants to provide all those "facts" you were talking about, Grumby.)

-Now again, what was the reason you guys decided (WITHOUT UN support) to attack Iraq? Couse they MIGHT have a nuclear weapons. (Wow, he actually got pretty damn close to a fact there! 1- Yes...we actually had UN support, via the original cease-fire from 1991. I'm tired of having to look it up and put it in people's face. So, he was wrong there. 2- We weren't just concerned about nuclear weapons. Almost right! Wow. Look how far down we are, Grumblin. All this distance, and we've got one "fact" that was almost right. I can tell this is going to be one of those long posts.)

-In your stupidity you fail to realise what you do. (Warming to the audience. This is a wonderful way to put across facts to someone. Especially if that someone might be reluctant to believe it. Illiry should really go into marketing, he's doing a smashing job. You're really backing a winner of a horse here, Grumby.)

-Just check similarity with following metaphore. (Which means the entirety of the next paragraph he puts up can be discouted. It's a hypothetical, not fact. It's also a very stupid hypothetical, not to mention the Logical Fallacy of False Analogy.)

-Seriously i AM sorry for the innocent people that died.
But you had it comming. (Assuming he is not lying, we have ourselves our very first fact. His statement that he is sorry for the innocent people that died is indeed a fact. We'll see how factual it is just a few posts later. "We had it coming", however is another good audience warmer, and also not a fact, but an opinion. He also seems to be erroneously citing 9/11 as the reason for Iraq.)

-I know most of you are reasonable but you have been brainwashed. (Ahhh, the "evidence" for why we disagree with him. We are all "brainwashed". ROFL, this is the best argument - and one we've seen hundreds of times. Someone representing about 20% of the population, maybe less, tells the other 80% that they believe incorrectly because they have been brainwashed. Yeah, it's us, not you, Illiry. That, and there is no factual evidence showing brainwashing.)

-PWNED, kk ty (This is my favorite part. After having one possible fact / correct statement there's the self-proclimation of victory. This from your champion boy, Illiry, and you have the fucking self-righteous attitude to slap at someone for saying "faust wins" AFTER this particular comment? You might wanna smell Illiry's ass before proclaiming that others' stink.)

-I dont care for US. I dont hate it. I just want you to STAY ON YOUR FUKKING CONTINENT. (Several posts later we get another fact, that funny enough does nothing to support the argument. If he is not lying, then the statement of his likes and dislikes and desires is indeed a fact. Wow, with all these facts that he has presented, I had better make a recap at the end!)

Start in US killing 50% of popullation world likes to call "white-trash". (UH OH! Looks like he took the very first fact, of his opinion and just fucked that up. If he is sorry that innocents died, then wishes death upon 125 million people? Looks like he was full of shit. So now we're down to one "fact". You support this guy, Grumblin? Someone that just stated he would like 125 million people to die based on race and financial status? Christ Grumblin, do you have posters of Stalin and Pol Pot in your bedroom too?)

-You will find out that avarage IQ in the world is growing while, oh supprise, in US it actually shrinks. (No evidence to support it. Nice try for "fact", yet just not there. Also a good way to let the audience want to hear more.)

*TADA!* What's the count folks!? One? One "fact", and that being of how he feels about something. Excellent! Grumblin is soooooo right about Illiry. He's both a statesman and logician. Please Grumblin, show me where I missed anything. Show me where we would want to put down the guns and actually listen to Illiry. We get to deal with these same assholes over and over and over and over. To make rational, well thought-out and polite posts counter to them takes time. To wade through their insults takes patience. One can only do that for so long before you realize as soon as you knock one down, another will take its place and you're back to square one. I for one am tired of being back to square one. That means that many will come here with attitude and, just speaking for myself here, I will likely not give them the benefit of the doubt.

Let me know what part of the world you're from (Kiwi, if I remember right) and I'll start tearing apart the govn't, the people, you and your friends. I'll then make 40 different logins and keep at it. I'll start out each post with unsupported statements and insults. Then I'll declare myself the winner, and login 39 other accounts to agree with myself. We'll do this for two years or so and see how patient you are at that point.

If people that want to check their emotion at the door, hold the insults (because they are losing and/or just plain stupid about addressing large groups of people), work on fact that doesn't come from "usaissatan.com", and be open minded about things come here and act like big-boys we'd see a lot less of this hostility. If, at the end of the day, people just agree to disagree...then cool. Illiry, your buddy, is not going about it in the correct manner. He got his pee-pee slapped and you come running to his defense. Illiry, Grumblin's favorite little boy, that only wished for the death of a mere 125 million people based on race and financial status. Excellent pick there, Grumby.

Why do i have this wierd feeling that iliry is made up? He seems too dumb to be real hehe:rollin

seems funny to me that before the war everyone was arguing there ass off that weapons of mass destruction was the reason and then when you all realize thats not the case it all of a sudden becomes 'not the only reason'
simple fact that you all try to change your excuses to fit the situation

Reading comprehension.

Iliry you cant argue against them

My only reference to Iliry - thanks for telling me i support him 100% and that he's my "buddy" and im "rushing to his defense", im merely pointing out his stupidity for posting on these boards where you can expect and exact symmetry in response to those before him. Sure i agree with some anti-america points, but this doesnt make me anti-america.

Let me know what part of the world you're from (Kiwi, if I remember right) and I'll start tearing apart the govn't, the people, you and your friends. I'll then make 40 different logins and keep at it. I'll start out each post with unsupported statements and insults. Then I'll declare myself the winner, and login 39 other accounts to agree with myself. We'll do this for two years or so and see how patient you are at that point.

Sure go right ahead, i'd happily debate facts about the NZ government, im absolutely certain i wouldn't react as you guys do to the criticism though (dont flame me on that, just look at the past posts). Those "unsupported statements" are opinions, and need to be taken at face value rather than as intended fact. You misunderstood me, i'm not supporting Iliry, this is an observation i've noticed from all the other threads out there. The reason i said shit about ignoring facts is a blanket statement, not for this particular instance, but for other instances. Maybe i came across wrong. What i was trying to say is: If a "eurotrash" comes up with 10 good facts, and then adds "Bush is a fucking idiot wake up you stupid americans" like tends to come out of the posts, all the 10 good facts would be totally ignored. Again that may be wrong. but look closely at the other threads, so much of "I stopped reading at this point huhuhuu youre fucking retarded"
and then "yeah youre right have my babies" and "no i want to have his babies!"

I also agree that blind patriotism is counterproductive, but everyone around here is coming off ANTI-patriotism. Like it's the devil to love your country. We got where we are today BECAUSE of patriotism. Without patrioitism, there is no cohesion in a country.

Hmm, not the point i was trying to make, that patriotism is bad. Though on the without patriotism point, It just depends what level the patriotism is at really, it seems we're in agreement on this point so i wont argue against you, i will say however that yes, love for your country is good, even though its an alien thing to me really, sure im proud to be a New Zealander and am proud of our achievements, but i will scorn soldiers being sent to war. I'm happy with the peacekeeping forces we send as neutral parties, but then perhaps thats just propaganda i've been brought up with, and perhaps their job isnt what i've thought it was. In my mind its the same thing, the objective impression i get from these boards is that the majority of posts here in american favour(huhu) are indeed "blind patriotism". Thats what im argueing against.

There are some VERY good anti-America, anti-Bush, whatever debates here, but when someone comes in with the "IH8 Bush World Supercowboy Because He Kicked My Dog" line for their first post

I just feel that the people that do post these good threads really dont get a fair deal at all. Because they get jumped on, and get told to "stop posting" which really halts any intelligent debate forming on the subject, and really it is an interesting subject. But its so marred with emotion, which may be the fact its so interesting, shrug.

Umm, we have elections to elect a leader....and Bush barely won. He has a, depending on what pole you look at, less than 60% aprroval rating...and that's considered good. I'm an American and amoung millions that hate Bush, but love our country!!

Hmm, my statement was directed at the people on these boards, not america as a whole. I don't know them, i probably never will. What i meant, ailwon, was that this love for your country gets in the way of your conscience, and because the people in power did it, and it is put out there as something done "by america", you feel the need to defend it so viciously.
When really the actions you are defending are those of the person you hate.

You are supporting a person that basically said

wrong.

In your mind, not everyones. I agree we were mislead by Bush regarding existing WoMD, but I'm not fooled for a second that that was his primary reason for going in. You need to stop seeing things in black and white.

One of the facts i consider intriguing. I believe that the bush administration did indeed make this up so that they would "invoke the rest of the world's fear" as it were. People will be much more willing to invade another country if they themselves felt in danger, which was mentioned numerous times in bush's speeches he gave that i saw, than to go in to help the people in the country, because helping by invading is really an irony if you look at it. I *know* what america did in there helped. But if they really are concealing that the whole thing about the WOMD was really just a lie and an incentive to get the rest of the world to agree with them - that makes it wrong. They can deny it all they like and say they were given false information, but someone has to take the fall, and if it really is a huge conspiracy, heh, good drama.

But that's not what has been happening. A fair number of these posts defame Americans as a whole and compare them to Nazis. I think Bush is an idiot too, but start calling my country Nazi and evil and me stupid and I will defend it with zeal!!

fair comment, again i think that the two types of posts are being confused and jumped on, though.

Well we'll see what comes out of that one, then.

Enough backpedaling there to power a small city.

Off to drink beer and watch commercials. More time to rationally discuss later.

haha.

*edit* my opinions never changed, if youll read my first post clearly, the second was merely clarification.

What i was trying to say is: If a "eurotrash" comes up with 10 good facts, and then adds "Bush is a fucking idiot wake up you stupid americans" like tends to come out of the posts, all the 10 good facts would be totally ignored.

Link one post where that has happened. Exactly two regular posters on these boards actually present any sort of reasonable points on the opposing side of the argument: Daidal and Shosa. Both are fairly civil about it.

I just feel that the people that do post these good threads really dont get a fair deal at all. Because they get jumped on, and get told to "stop posting" which really halts any intelligent debate forming on the subject, and really it is an interesting subject. But its so marred with emotion, which may be the fact its so interesting, shrug.

As far as I recall, none of the relatively few intelligent arguments were directly flamed. I recall flaming Daidal once; IIRC, it was not over one of these debates. Feel free to search and prove me wrong.

"Blood hath brought blood, and blows have answer'd blows." So too moronic flames spawn moronic flames. People have things to do. Few have the time or the desire to post a detailed rebuttal to a far left link and "America is teh sux."

Willgatus
Imported Eurotrash
Autonomous Collective

As far as I recall, none of the relatively few intelligent arguments were directly flamed. I recall flaming Daidal once; IIRC, it was not over one of these debates. Feel free to search and prove me wrong.

pub142.ezboard.com/fayona...=1&stop=20 (http://pub142.ezboard.com/fayonaerofrm15.showMessageRange?topicID=811.topic&start=1&stop=20)

There is a good example i feel, fairly civil, nothing offensive said, marz pounced on it like a cat on a moth. I had a specific example in mind for the other example you requested, but i cant for the life of me find it, is probably in nuggets or something stupid like that. As you know the civil posts are few and far between, but when they do arise they subject at hand is not given fair attention. I think its a very interesting subject, we debate the others and its tremendously interesting, but this hasnt been touched on civilly yet.

Very poor example Grumb....

He posted in the wrong forum and was bashed for it...

then later on called Americans in general, stupid....once you go there it's no holds barred.

I agree that these discussions tend to degrade into flame fests and are rarely talked about seriously or with civility. What you have to understand is that it was, a long time ago.
These discussions descended inevitably into the flame fests you see today. The problem is now there is a raw nerve exposed because of the incessant flames on the subject so the gloves drop with even the smallest decent toward name calling and gross generalizations.

If you want to make a thread on the subject fell free. Be warned however, because of the history of the subject on these boards, you have to tread lightly to avoid the inevitably flame fest for as long as possible, so that some rational discussion can sneek through :')

Whoa!

I have never, nor would I ever, call Americans stupid (for if I did, I'd probably lose my job seeing as how I now work for an American company... :) )

"
His attitude, however, is far from perfect, and typical from certain factions "We tire of this American bashing" equates into "We tire of having our own stupidity pointed out to us! STFU!! We don't want to know!"
"

This is as close as I can see where you may have misconstrued my remarks. It's directed at folks here, in this very NG, who, without making *any* coherent or rational post, shout down any discourse that may take place--hence the 'see no evil, hear no evil' inference I made later.

As for posting in the wrong NG, when I realized my error, I immediately apologized and requested thie thread to be moved to the proper one.

I think it's a perfect example of people jumping to conclusions and people who have to work on reading comprehension, just as this is.

Note in this very thread one point was "Oh, politicians lie--that's alright, that's what they're suppose to do."

Well, besides showing what a level we have sunken to for expectations of our elected officials, let me remind everyone here about, oh... (strokes chin thoughtfully a la 'Letterman') seems like just yesterday...

When Bubba, Tubby, Billy-boy Clinton was in power. Lets talk about the anger, the frustration, the whole fiasco that was "Lewinsky-Gate". Now here's two consenting adults, doing what some consenting adults do in the privacy of whatever...

So he lied about it. As stated here, it's what politicians do.

But wait! What is this? The Republicans took issue to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars investigating stains on blue dresses and funny smelling cigars?

And what has Dubya lied about?

Well, I could repost it but it's in this very thread, so I shan't bother.

Bubba lies about a personal liason which really wasn't anyone elses business and no one was harmed--well, maybe a blue dress. Dubya lies and now we have 500 dead soldiers and many more civilians dead.

Bubba has affairs--"That's outrageous!!" cries Republican leaders, "This must be investigated to the full extent of the law!!!"

Arnold has affairs--"Tut tut.. We're all adults here..." says the Republicans (quote snivved from Bill Maher, but I like him so, eh, whatever)

Yeah, the hypocricy is a little thick right of the middle. I won't even start on Rush. Though I also admonish that poster with his "right wing a$$----" postings--yeah, that helps discourse.

Pretty much, though, take my silence on most matters as more than willing to let it go, unless so provoked by erronous statements like

then later on called Americans in general, stupid....once you go there it's no holds barred.

for I do agree with Marz, et al, on many things, and am quite content to just read, and keep the boat as stable as possible. My days in EQ are winding down, and am content nowadays just to read what's going on...

Show me a politician for ANY WHERE in the world that doesn't lie and you will have a politician that won't have a job for long

Damn straight Balty... I just prefer Bush's lie over any other politician. Like I said if your going to vote pick the lesser of the two evils...

As for akipt, read through my posts in that thread where we had that little "duel" if you will. I stand by my first ones, i thought it was a misunderstanding and thats why i backed off but i see now that you really do have some problems. Restating my argument would be redundant, though.

Sorry, I too am too lazy to go find the thread. From memory: Another country is a threat to my country. I say we should take out that country. You cry fowl. I cleared up my post by replacing country with government, because you think I want to genocide all of said country's population. You never replied. So what has changed or have you got something new to add?

It's so much easier to just reply to your "facts" but we rarely see any posted here, from you or anyone else as Faust as repeatedly drilled you on. So I'm going to venture into a realm of trying to explain to you "where I come from" :

But to be so 100% for this government which OBVIOUSLY has some flaws makes me wonder what kind of propaganda you are being fed over there.

I don't agree 100% with anyone. As for this propaganda we've been fed to over here:

I paid attention to my history professors, liberal as they mostly all were. They tried to teach me just how awful war was, and how much we need to try and avoid it at all costs. I understood that, but I took from those lessons something else they didn't intend, I understand just how vulnerable any society is to appeasement and how much worse things get by falling into that trap of isolationism.

I also listened to my grandfather tell the story about the time a German tanker stuck the sharp end of a shovel through his foot. My grandfather put a bullet through the German's head, after which he crawled almost a mile back to a medic station where he almost died except for the efforts of a nurse from Christchurch, NZ. He says thanks Kiwi.

I listened to my grandfather-in-law tell how the Japanese raped, pillaged, and burned people alive in the Pacific, just for fun. He doesn't tell many more specifics though.

I listended to my best friend's father tell about his squad's sergeant getting captured, strung up, and skinned from waist to toe in Vietnam.

I listened to my grandfather's brother talk about being a gunner on a destroyer in the south Pacific dodging kamikazees. How he thanked God they didn't have to invade their homeland.

I know one of my other great-uncles was in Pearl Harbor, a cook on some ship. He never spoke about what he saw.

I won't apologize for the Japanese that were disintegrated so that my family could return from the war they didn't start. Blind patriotism? No, survival. My civilization survived, and so did yours.

How does this relate to believing the "lies" my president has told to get the US and many more countries into Iraq? I know there are some things in the world that need people to die for to prevent or to protect.

I really don't like standing upon the shoulders of great men in history, but this Brit summed it up nicely:

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." - <a href="http://www.bartleby.com/130/" target="_new">John Stuart Mill</a>

I also see you say this:
sure im proud to be a New Zealander and am proud of our achievements, but i will scorn soldiers being sent to war.

At what point would you condone war? I think this is the crux of your entire argument against Bush.

The "Bush is a liar" statements are just rediculous, get past those and we can debate more civilized. Give it time, the non-partisan investigations into our intelligence will come out.

Now to play catch-up:

"All politicians lie, get over it" is rediculous too. Yes I live in some propaganda utopia, but it'll all play out in the end.

Arnold is no Republican, certainly not a conservative. Bash on him all you want.

Got it Setsuna, I apologize I misunderstood your comment.

But really it didn't have a lot to do with my main point. I'm not putting blame on wither side because there's wrong done on both sides. It usually ends up with gross generalized insults, ridiculous or hurtful remarks, or just plain childlike name calling. Doesn't really matter where it starts because from that point on any real discussion is over.

Anyways....

My problems with what Clinton did are way beyond just the acts commited. It's the fact that he did it with someone that he holds direct power over in the workplace. To me that is way more offensive than the morality of the acts themselves. How do we know he didn't pressure her into doing it using his position of power (she hasn't said this to be the fact, but there may by other reasons why she has not). His lie further showed serious flaws in his character.

Not going to get into Bush's many lies.....don't have an afternoon to devote :')

Again Sorry to drag you into this unecessarily Setsuna.

There has to be a line Akipt.

One lf the major reasons that I broke off my engagement was that the SO was in the camp of "No War Ever!!!!" Peace rallys and such were the norm. I supported that, to a point, but I believe in a Just war. When Hitler invaded Poland, Winston and the Allied forces were justified in saying "No! That is wrong for you to do that and we, with all our power, will stop you!"

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." - John Stuart Mill

What's even uglier is than this supposed 'ugliest of things', is instigating and supporting an unjust war using lies and deceit, and then telling those who oppose said war that they are the 'ugliest of things' because they don't support your actions.

You yourself just pointed out the atrocities that happen in a war. We would hope that since we took the 'moral high ground' in these wars that our soldiers would have enough fortitude to not commit those types of heinous atrocities, and I'd think that you would be hard pressed to find 'enemy combatants' from all the wars you listed having similar stories about what 'allied soldiers' did to them and their comrades (though, if researched, I may be wrong on that--life is not a "Platoon" movie where we saw Americans committing atrocities)

But again, war is hell. We allied ourselves in WW2 with the Russians, not due to their 'moral fortitude', but out of convenience. It's in the history books that the Russian officers would shoot to kill any solder fleeing from the front line--but we allied ourselves with them.

So don't go standing on this moral pillar with your horror stories from the war stating that due to these horrific instances that we're the good guys at all times. You know better. As do I. As should everyone else. I will reiterate, War is hell, and should be avoided.

But you went into Iraq with this false 'moral credibility' which, as many countries pointed out, was flawed even before the war. Americans shot back questioning the 'moral credibility' of these other countries (Canada being missed, 'cause well, we always get ignored ;) ) To add further insult to injury, as recent events have born out, all 'moral justifications' for invading Iraq (uranium, WoMD, unmanned drones, and the list goes on) are now proven false. The only thing left was the 'interference with inspectors', but it wasn't Saddam who booted Blix out of Iraq, it was Dubya. but the blood pressure's going up, so I stop now.

I left a wonderful relationship because I believe in a Just War. By your posts you have no concept of same--Justify Iraq in 2003. You had a pretty good justification in 1991 in my books, but not in 2003, and certainly not now.

And your misuse of "platitude quoting" isn't going to get around that.

I won't apologize for the Japanese that were disintegrated so that my family could return from the war they didn't start. Blind patriotism? No, survival. My civilization survived, and so did yours.

The "Blind Patriotism" i was referring to was not to the soldiers going to war, it was to the attitudes of some of the americans on this board

There has to be a line Akipt.

Thats exactly my thoughts, what qualifies a "just war"? I'd love to hear feedback on that. The end has to justify the horrible, brutal means. If saddam was really a threat to the world as bush claimed before the war, then sure the war would have been justified.

Here's where i stand. It was a great thing to get rid of Saddam, noone is disputing that, the effectiveness of the war cannot be guaged yet though, until we see Iraq free again with its own leader in whatever type of government they form - with american supervision, not interference. If they accomplish that, then the war will have been worth it, it would have to see the economy return, and atrocities kept at bay, with low unemployment rates and such. But it will effectively have seen the rescue of Iraq. I doubt this will happen for a very long time though, so as yet, the war has had no justification except for the removal of one evil in power. If they had come from the line that "Saddam is evil *this* is what he did and is constantly doing to his people* right from the outset, people wouldnt have the trouble they have today, but to invoke the fear of the world claiming the world was in danger like bush did, is morally wrong.

And what has Dubya lied about?

uhhmm a big war
u know the one thats killed a lot of ppl

tiny bit of difference between lies to cover up ur sex life or to make campaign promises to boost ratings, than making up countless fabrications, stories & reports to cheat the world in to thinking a country is a threat so u can bomb it to the stoneage, and a lot of civilians with it.

see the difference there skippy?

Regards

good work saying what me and setsuna just said, except with a little bit of "i am better than you" mixed in, fuck off or get some original opinions

*edit* and what the fuck? you took that quote from Setsuna's post?

There has to be a line Akipt.
Yes, and I was trying to find Grumbli's line, not yours. Since you've been pretty civil too, I'll respond to you too (:

When Hitler invaded Poland, Winston and the Allied forces were justified in saying "No! That is wrong for you to do that and we, with all our power, will stop you!"
It took Britain, France, NZ, Australia, and Canada almost 5 years from the time Hitler started breaking the Treaty of Versailles and invading other countries before they did anything. It took another 3 years before the US did, so I'm not implying the US was any better. But that line you talk about can be like a rubberband, real stretchy, and for the detriment of everyone.

Ok, about this moral high ground business. I didn't post about my family to show how morally right we were in those conflicts. It was merely to show where I was coming from. Ie, not from some propaganda crap machine as Grumbli suggests. Don't throw it back in my face :P

What's even uglier is than this supposed 'ugliest of things', is instigating and supporting an unjust war using lies and deceit, and then telling those who oppose said war that they are the 'ugliest of things' because they don't support your actions.

And what is ugliest of all is someone taking the word and honor of Saddam Hussein over president Bush. Reminiscent of Neville Chamberlain stepping off the plane in 1938 proclaiming England's "lasting peace" with Germany by granting Hitler lebensraum into Czechoslovakia. Czeck's really appreciated that one.

Where is the line drawn for Iraq Setsuna? Just answer that.

At what point could we stop ignoring radio intercepts of Iraqi intelligence officers deliberately running interference, hiding "special vehicles" from UN inspectors? You say this is the only thing Saddam did wrong. Well, if he was so innocent why was he doing that? Twelve years and seventeen UN resolutions later, Saddam had lost all fear of defying the UN anyway.

How many chemically scrubbed and newly painted <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,86068,00.html" target="_new">bio labs</a> must he have in violation of UN resolutions? Was he worried about the plague or a cockroach infestation?

How long were we to allow him to <a href="http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/21/1042911362592.html" target="_new">deny</a> U2 spy plane over flights for intelligence confirmations? Was he hiding something?

How many <a href="http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/Iraq/2003/08/24/168088-ap.html" target="_new">drones</a> was he allowed to have? Yes, the ones we found could not be used to disperse any WMD agents. But these were all against UN resolutions anyway and honestly, how freaking hard would it but to turn these existing drones into useable deliverables? Take the camera unit off, rig up a timed air compressor for discharge, and let her fly towards Kuwait, Israel, or Turkey?

How many Scuds (destroyed in front of UN inspectors or <a href="http://www.rferl.org/features/2003/03/22032003142343.asp" target="_new">launched</a>) at Kuwait was he allowed to have, even though all were noncompliance of UN resolutions? (thanks Faust)

The missing <a href="http://nti.org/e_research/e3_20b.html#fn5" target="_new">VX nerve agent?</a> We know he had it in 1998, 4 tons of it weaponized in a Scud which we recovered and tested positive. Iraq declared they had 4 tons of it in 1996 but then denied ever having it. ... Uh? Hello? They had 4 tons, then don't. We find a scud with it weaponized. Now they can't prove they destroyed it. Gotcha.

The UN concluded he had 25,000 liters of anthrax. Not Bush. Not the CIA, not MI5/6, but the UN. He never showed proof of destruction. Why's that?

What would be your explanation for the 300 chemical suits, 300 gas masks, 600 atropine injectors (nerve gas antidote) and the chemical decontamination vehicles and washers <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/27/sprj.irq.iraq.chemical.suits/" target="_new">found</a> in Nasiriya during the invasion?

What about the <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-03-26-chemical-suits_x.htm" target="_new">3000</a> other chemical suits found in central bag?

What about the 1 million <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/11/12/iraq.antidote/" target="_new">atropine injectors</a> Iraq tried to purchase before the invasion?

30,000 warheads capable of dispersing WMD, 16 found and destroyed by inspectors a months after Saddam said all of them were destroyed. Where did the others go? He could give no proof they got destroyed.

In fact, Iraq had a really good opportunity to prove all of us wrong. All he had to do was cooperate. Kinda like a guy running down the street from a crime scene. A cop yells for him to freeze. Instead, he points a dark object at the cop. What's the cop going to do? Bang.

Oops! Missed opportunty:

"Iraq appears not to have come to a genuine acceptance, not even today, of the disarmament which was demanded of it." - Dr. Blix after UN inspections were halted before our invasion.

Sad day that, I can still see Blix's frown as his world came to an end. You would almost think he got some of that <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/saddam_oil_vouchers_040129-1.html" target="_new">oil money</a> Saddam was passing out to appeasers. Or maybe he didn't and that's why he had the long face.

Since we couldn't trust Saddam to disarm or fully comply with any UN resolution, we regime changed his ass.

So anyway, I drew the line about right here. Some people have obviously drawn it farther down the road. Perhaps they wanted to see Saddam actually use a WMD to be an imminent threat. To that, I go back to some of the propaganda I heard from Bush before we invaded Iraq:

"Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option." - President Bush

Ok, our intelligence was wrong. Britain's intelligence was wrong. But it wasn't our responsiblity to go in and find this stuff with inspections. It was up to Saddam to show proof that he had destroyed it all. He didn't. He thought it was all a game.

Lots of questions, not many answers. I probably have a better chance of changing your mind on whether abortion is right or wrong.

Edit: Added more links above and since I fell asleep last night, wrapped this long and boring post up:

So did Bush lie about WMD in Iraq? I think from all the intelligence he was getting, he would have been freakin insane to ignore it.

And lastly, if every single Iraqi General we have <a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/17/opinion/main584077.shtml" target="_new">interviewed</a>, living freely or in captivity, with 100% consistently claims that "My unit didn't have WMD, but the one to my right or left did" Reread that. EVERY Iraqi General we have interviewed was duped into thinking he had WMDs.

The only "lies and deceit" being done was by Saddam Hussein, not president Bush. If you want to continue to accuse Bush of lies, then you're guilty of the exact same thing you're accusing Bush of; Bush didn't fabricat the WMDs for political purposes, but you want to use the lack of WMDs for your own axe to grind.

*This* is what i wanted to see ~ about to go out now, i'll post a reply when i get back, you've proven me wrong once again - hat off akipt. Let's keep this one civil.

How many chemically scrubbed and newly painted bio labs must he have in violation of UN resolutions? Was he worried about the plague or a cockroach infestation?

well the article said this is the only one & it also said that it may not even be one anyway. so this point is invalid. besides that its more than likely it could be, like so many other things found, left over from the gulf war

How long were we to allow him to deny U2 spy plane over flights for intelligence confirmations? Was he hiding something?

denying spy planes from other countries freedom to roam around and, as the guy said, interfere with air defense, is a justification and cause for war? uhm yea right

How many drones was he allowed to have? Yes, the ones we found could not be used to disperse any WMD agents. But these were all against UN resolutions anyway and honestly, how freaking hard would it but to turn these existing drones into useable deliverables? Take the camera unit off, rig up a timed air compressor for discharge, and let her fly towards Kuwait, Israel, or Turkey?

so the old drones couldnt deliver chemical or biological weapons, but paranoia suggests one day they could sneak in to US and poison everyone? yeah, lets declare war!!! the article itself even says they posed no threat or werent a factor at all

How many Scuds (destroyed in front of UN inspectors or launched) at Kuwait was he allowed to have, even though all were noncompliance of UN resolutions? (thanks Faust)

despite this happening after the war was started, youre actually suggesting a country should go to war with another country because they have...missles??? which, as we all found out, was about the extent of the entire iraqi defense. give me a break.

The missing VX nerve agent? We know he had it in 1998, 4 tons of it weaponized in a Scud which we recovered and tested positive. Iraq declared they had 4 tons of it in 1996 but then denied ever having it. ... Uh? Hello? They had 4 tons, then don't. We find a scud with it weaponized. Now they can't prove they destroyed it. Gotcha.

The UN concluded he had 25,000 liters of anthrax. Not Bush. Not the CIA, not MI5/6, but the UN. He never showed proof of destruction. Why's that?

so he had all this stuff, but neither used it ever, not even in desperate defence, and it also cannot be found at all. is it... magic chemicals? i mean.. if they are such big a threat, such a large amount, and so deadly and a reason for war, then it must be magic if it can't be found right?

What would be your explanation for the 300 chemical suits, 300 gas masks, 600 atropine injectors (nerve gas antidote) and the chemical decontamination vehicles and washers found in Nasiriya during the invasion?

link pls? more then likely came from the gulf war

30,000 warheads capable of dispersing WMD, 16 found and destroyed by inspectors a months after Saddam said all of them were destroyed. Where did the others go? He could give no proof they got destroyed.

30000? none of which were used? or can be found? are they magic too?

Since we couldn't trust Saddam to disarm or fully comply with any UN resolution, we regime changed his ass.

because BUSH couldnt. and regime change? is that what that's called? hahaha

so from your perspective, invasion was made, a country was ruined, and thousands died, because bush couldn't trust saddam?
he was neither an imminent threat nor, as has been shown now didnt possess any womd (unless they were magical!), BUT because the bin laden thing didnt work out well, the next target on the list had to be attacked to keep the blood lust satisfied.

if you can answer me this question, then i might grasp a small bit of perspective on your view point, if not, then you really are talking more shit then your preisdent: why is nothing being done about israel? you know how many UN resolutions have been broken there? or korea? yea, why not korea? fully hostile, fully dangerous, fully armed, more womd then you can poke a stick at, dictatorship that have killed and tortured more civilians then saddam could have a wet dream over.

hows aboot you answer those, ehhh?

Nice bait Enchman, if only reality allowed us to pick and choose the intelligence to listen to like you just did it would be a much more simpler world.

a country was ruined
This summed up your view anyway. You're despicable.

he was neither an imminent threat
Never claimed to be, per the quote I gave you in my original post we didn't have to wait till then anyway.

BUT because the bin laden thing didnt work out well
I get a small feeling that you're actually pretty happy he isn't caught. In addition to your previous "ruined country" comment, I decline to waste much more time with you.

why is nothing being done about israel? you know how many UN resolutions have been broken there?
All resolutions against Israel are under UN's Chapter 11 rulings. Basically, they mean nothing. No threat of force, just remarks by a bunch of other bribed countries that there may be some human rights violations.

Chapter 12 was used for Iraq's resolutions because there was an imminent threat of force if not followed.

why not korea?
Working on it. Stay tuned.

Nice try Enchman.

Here's a real simple answer regarding Israel. The US has not gone after them because *drum roll* they don't pose a threat to the US economy or security! Shocking that, I know. I would bet if Israel were to become hostile to the US ,you would see things happen. As everyone is so happy to point out, the US is not the world's policeman. It takes action when it's interests are directly involved, not whenever something ugly happens anywhere in the world. Saddam had repeatedly threatened a major chunk of the world's oil supply (a vital US interest), invaded his neighbors for the purpose of annexing territory twice and was developing weapons capable of killing millions along with the means to deliver them.

A very large number of UN resolutions have been broken or ignored by a very large number of countries (not just in the middle east). The reason is UN resolutions have no teeth unless someone takes concrete actions to back them up. In the case of Israel, many of the "resolutions" that have passed would lead to the destruction of Israel itself. I would not follow them either if I were in their shoes.

All other reasons beside, it was apparent that Saddam had not lived up to the cease fire agreement made in the first Gulf War. He fought tooth and nail to hide his weapons programs for years. He never repaid Kuwait as required. He kicked out inspectors for a couple years, had the infrastructure in place to revive his programs and continued attempting to import weapon components he had agreed to eliminate. He tried to assassinate an ex-US president. He had almost succeeded in buying his way out of sanctions that were the only hindrance to his rearming. He was clearly a threat likely to explode into a new war down the road, except with the added horror of WMD's being used.
There is a point when enough is enough. It was obvious he could not be overthrown from within. From the US standpoint, force was the only way to get rid of the problem since time and again Saddam had proven unwilling to live up to any diplomatic agreement. He simply could not be negotiated with and have any hope he would adhere to the agreement.

why not korea?
Working on it. Stay tuned.

eg "no fuckin clue"

I decline to waste much more time with you.

eg "i can't answer anything you said"

Because Saddam would NEVER hide something in the desert? (http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_138.shtml)

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
why not korea?
Working on it. Stay tuned.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
eg "no fuckin clue"

This does not invalidate some of the statements he made in regards to the Iraq situation.

And perhaps it's the 11,000 pieces of artillery aimed at Seoul, the capital of South Korea (30 miles from DMZ), that dictates things are handled differently. With promises from North Korean officials to turn Seoul into (I'm quoting here) a "sea of fire", is a good indicator how just how different the dynamics are. It was estimated that if a war broke out on the Korean pennisula, at least 3.5 million dead in Seoul the first week. Seoul has a population of about 11 million.

So if you are using the "US treats Nkorea different" to criticize the Iraq situation, well you are off base and need to find more focused and relevant facts.

Was going to post when i got back but my net was down, so i'll reply now.


And what is ugliest of all is someone taking the word and honor of Saddam Hussein over president Bush. Reminiscent of Neville Chamberlain stepping off the plane in 1938 proclaiming England's "lasting peace" with Germany by granting Hitler lebensraum into Czechoslovakia. Czeck's really appreciated that one.

This one made me think. Its a whole different concept. The whole idea of expansion *into another country* or the infringing of the rights of people not under control of that government without the people's agreement. Also in this instance, Germany obviously definitely provided a threat to surrounding coutries, Iraq did not, and as far as i saw did not intend to expand. So comparing on this instance isnt right.To me at first thought that was where the line stood.

Secondly, though, i thought does the line stand at international invasion? Or does it simply first lie at the doorstep of the invader. The people of Iraq as far as i have heard were terrorised and kept of their right to collectively change the government. With the WOMD argument aside, was america right to go into Iraq to change their government without first the approval of the UN. While i do believe that the end of getting Saddam out of power was a very necessary end, the means of which the Bush administration went about it were, in my mind, questionable to say the least. (Going in with the declaration of WOMD and the down sides of that which have already been mentioned, and going in against UN approval.)

To me, where i'm coming from, the whole WOMD is a moot point, Iraq were nowhere near being able to be again in the position to attack anyone, represented by the fact that their planes were indeed buried, their artillery in disrepair, and so far, the american and british teams have found no (as far as i am aware) proven evidence of a biological weapons program in Iraq. As for the traces of Uranium found on scrap metal supposedly heading into Iraq...

www.nyjournalnews.com/new...anium.html (http://www.nyjournalnews.com/newsroom/041603/a0516waruranium.html)

To me it seems rather hypocritical. America is allowed Uranium bullets legally and morally, though Iraq is not.

The only "lies and deceit" being done was by Saddam Hussein, not president Bush. If you want to continue to accuse Bush of lies, then you're guilty of the exact same thing you're accusing Bush of; Bush didn't fabricat the WMDs for political purposes, but you want to use the lack of WMDs for your own axe to grind.

This after talks in this thread of "Politicians lie without fail"? I think to say that President Bush did not lie on this issue is a theory, as is the conspiracy theory that they all knew, and they were all in it together to gain the support of other countries through fear of danger from Iraq. The above statement is an example of "Im right youre wrong"

As for the defense system. Look at it from the perspective of Iraq. Woot the most powerful country in the world has threatened to invade you. (Hypothetically speaking) You have no weapons of mass destruction, and only a few weapons period. You know that you cannot prove that you have no WOMD, because that would take a thorough search of the whole country. So what can you do. Sit down and wait for imminant invasion under the impression of which deadly force will be used regardless of anything, or hide the small amount of weapons you currently have in order to keep even a sliver of a defense for against the invading american backed armies. You guys know which one you would choose, if propaganda inferenced that yes this large country is evil and against your religion you'd fight tooth and nail to defend you and yours. So the fighting of these small weapons does not surprise me. Also there is the above argument of that these were left over from the gulf war.

Have run out of time hah, out i go again, will elaborate and add to that when i return again. Until then, Enchman, think about what you post and how people will react, know that a debate is not two people against each other, its two different sides of an argument being revealed to the other side. Along with the opinions and shit - flaming isnt necessary and gets noone anywhere. Thanks!

I hate threads like this. Lots of people with nothing to say making very long posts.

If you had any fucking brains you would know that no one reads or cares about anything a moron says if it takes more than 5 or 6 lines to say.

Hell, If you are really smart and witty you can say alot in 4
lines.

So the question is, did you make it 5 lines on purpose to be clever? Or did you mean to be clever and make it exactly 4, but hit an accidental "Enter" instead of just letting it flow to the next line?

fuck off home deeath, what can you say in 5 lines, wow something similar to what you just said - nothing! maybe:

Hey bozo.
You suck,
I hate you.
You're stupid
Go die.

that sums up the limit of your scope, it takes more than that to put a side to an argument up, if you dont want to read it, whether its because you're too lazy, or too stupid, then dont. but fuck off and dont spread your opinions onto those of us that do have an interest.

*edit* im such a hypocrite

read your post again akipt for one of the several times. Picked up this tidbit

So did Bush lie about WMD in Iraq? I think from all the intelligence he was getting, he would have been freakin insane to ignore it.

That makes a lot of sense to me. The only dispute i would have - assuming he is an honest man - would be could it happen in the future. For example, if the same people who fed this same information (false or not) about New Zealand, how could we deny having WOMD? there is always the chance for some underground chemical weapons factory buried underneath a forest or something. Telling us to disarm - if those people are so set that we do have chemical weapons - would be pointless. We have no WOMD (to my knowledge) and we couldnt prove that.

That all aside, all you have is taking Saddam out of power. A valid reason, but to use the WOMD reason as the main reason to go to war (deja vu here).

fuck off home deeath, what can you say in 5 lines, wow something similar to what you just said - nothing! maybe:

Oh Snap!

Though I don't agree with the way it was said...

I agree that you should take a hike deaath if you can offer nothing more than insults and flippant remarks to the discussion.

Grumblin-

You have to use a little common sense here. New Zealand for example, has no recent history of using chemical weapons, has not invaded it's neighbors in order to annex territory and generally lives up to it's international agreements. If New Zealand says it has no WMD, well who isn't going to believe them?

Iraq had used chemical weapons on both the Iranians and Kurds in recent memory, had invaded two of it's neighbors without provocation in order to seize their land and has repeatedly ignored or flouted it's agreements. They originally lied to the UN about their nuclear program until they were caught at it. Now explain to me again why intelligence claiming they were still armed and/or working on WMD should have been disbelieved out of hand.

I will point out once again, although no WMDs have been found, Iraq maintained the means to quickly go back into production once sanctions had been lifted. The scientists were still on the payroll, they were caught trying to import banned items a number of times during the period they claimed to have destroyed their programs, and they had kicked out the UN inspectors after having stonewalled them every step of the way. Bits and pieces of highly suspect equipment have been found, enough to make one wonder what else is out there or what may have been moved out of country to Syria.

I do agree that the intelligence services need to be revamped to prevent this kind of failure in the future. Something went wrong and in my opinion some heads need to roll.

That said Gulor, this is where the situation unfurls...

Before 9/11, both George Tenant and Colin Powell stated that Iraq posed no immediate danger to anyone, that containment was working, and they had no WoMD.

www.scoop.co.nz/mason/sto...S00211.htm (http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0306/S00211.htm)
www.thememoryhole.org/war...no-wmd.htm (http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/powell-no-wmd.htm)

So after 9/11, suddenly Iraq became a threat.

In the past, inspection teams namy have been kicked out of Iraq by Saddam, but Blix wasn't. Blix was there, doing his job and was kicked out by Bush.

Saddam is a tyrant and a murderer. He wasn't the only tyrant and murderer in charge of a country at the time, however. So what possible reason, other than the idea that SH is a bad man, could there be for the US to invade his country?

All the given ones have turned out to be false. The US administration knew these reasons were false even before 9/11 and publically stated as much.

This is where I have the problem. Blaming the CIA now, when the CIA stated there was little concern with Iraq before 9/11 is hypocritical.

Yes heads should roll, but they shouldn't roll in the intelligence agencies, the white house needs to look at itself first.

Possibly...but the CIA, NSA, etc. provide intelligence briefings to congress as well as the president. If they were telling congress one thing, and the president was telling congress something else I think there would have been more resistance, don't you? No, I'm pretty sure the CIA screwed up and this one can't be blamed solely on the white house and it's personal grudge against Saddam..

Also, prior to 9/11, Al Qaeda was not considered an imminent threat to the US homeland. That just goes to show you how little the intelligence services really know about some parts of the world.

Statements by the State Department (Powell) are meant for international consumption. Before 9/11 the US was pretty complacent about what threats were out there. Don't you think the re-evaluations of threats after 9/11 might have caused them to re-evaluate Iraq as well as Al Qaeda?

Before 9/11, both George Tenant and Colin Powell stated that Iraq posed no immediate danger to anyone, that containment was working, and they had no WoMD.
Yes. Our intelligence was so good and credible we prevented 9/11 didn't we?

So is it credible or not? That needs to be worked on.

Blix was there, doing his job and was kicked out by Bush.
How long were we supposed to play at Saddam's game?

"Iraq appears not to have come to a genuine acceptance, not even today, of the disarmament which was demanded of it." - Dr. Blix

What part of the quote do you not understand?

The UN's inspectors could not fully MAKE Iraq comply with the resolutions. It had to do it willingly. That definitely did not happen. Look at Lybia today. THAT is a country willingly cooperating with UN inspection teams.

Oh btw, our intelligence was really wrong there too. We had no clue that Lybia was so far along in their nuclear capabilities. Thanks Pakistan.

Saddam is a tyrant and a murderer. He wasn't the only tyrant and murderer in charge of a country at the time, however. So what possible reason, other than the idea that SH is a bad man, could there be for the US to invade his country?

EXACTLY the reason we used WMD as the only cause for our removal of Saddam from power. Yes, we could have used the humanitarian reasons to go in, to be the "moral highground" as you've accused us of doing anyway. But that would have required support from the UN, which itself already allows regimes, such as, Syria to be head of the Human Rights Council. Uh, that is really honorable and credible of the UN to allow that.

Saddam is a tyrant and a murderer. He wasn't the only tyrant and murderer in charge of a country at the time, however. So what possible reason, other than the idea that SH is a bad man, could there be for the US to invade his country?

The exact same reasons that forced the UN to enact seventeen resolutions against Iraq in the first place? He never once followed a single resolution through.
If he wasn't a threat, the UN would have told the US to bugger off and stop wasting its time.

This is where I have the problem. Blaming the CIA now, when the CIA stated there was little concern with Iraq before 9/11 is hypocritical.

How can the intelligence agencies of the US, Britain, France, Germany, and others all be so wrong? That is what needs to be answered. They all thought Iraq had WMDs.

Yes heads should roll, but they shouldn't roll in the intelligence agencies, the white house needs to look at itself first.

I couldn't aree with you more. But you want an axe to grind. I want to be able to trust our intelligence agencies, so that another 9/11 or Saddam Hussein is not allowed to threaten my country again.

How long were we supposed to play at Saddam's game?

Probably a little longer than you did, obviously. If Sadaam was playing games with UN resolutions, shouldn't it be up to the UN to do something about it. A country acting unilaterally, in defiance of the UN, to enforce UN resolutions, is wrong.

"Iraq appears not to have come to a genuine acceptance, not even today, of the disarmament which was demanded of it." - Dr. Blix

Did that give the US the right to invade? Where's the Just reason for invading Iraq? Because Sadaam was 'playing games'? Because the UN wasn't doing its job? What right did the US have to start the war? Was Iraq an imminent danger to the US?

The exact same reasons that forced the UN to enact seventeen resolutions against Iraq in the first place? He never once followed a single resolution through.

UN resolutions, not US resolutions.

If he wasn't a threat, the UN would have told the US to bugger off and stop wasting its time.

The US told the UN to go 'bugger off'. Now, of course, because of the huge monetary fiasco that hte war has become, the US is once again asking for the UN to help, but only on terms that the US wants.

How can the intelligence agencies of the US, Britain, France, Germany, and others all be so wrong? That is what needs to be answered. They all thought Iraq had WMDs.

France and Germany, if I recall correctly *cough* freedom fries *cough* may have known that Iraq had some sort of whatever, but they, as well as the US administration, didn't consider Saddam an imminent threat, and those countries were more than satisfied to let Blix continue his job.

Let's not go forgetting that there was something being done. The world wasn't rolling over and ignoring Saddam, work was being done in the form of sanctions, inspections and the like.

This is where my other pet peeve factors in--Colin shows up with his little PPT showing photos and imagery of locations of WoMD, and yet the US withheld such info form the inspectors, so the inspectors couldn't do their job properly. At hte time it was a matter of security, What it reads now is a 'setup' and 'planting evidence' to make the US invasion more credible, for nothing was found.

I couldn't aree with you more. But you want an axe to grind. I want to be able to trust our intelligence agencies, so that another 9/11 or Saddam Hussein is not allowed to threaten my country again.

Saddam wasn't a threat to your country and whats more, your intelligence said as much. So again, I ask the question, what happened after 9/11 that made the administration interpret the same data differently. The white house sifted through the documentation and slanted the data to suit their needs. Even before the war most of the conclusions of the white house were proven false--uranium from Niger, aluminum tubes and the like, by data from your intelligence agencies, as well as other intelligence agencies around the world.

How many of the 9/11 terrorists were Iraqis, and how many were from Saudi Arabia? Any 9/11 justification for the war with Iraq is completely null and void due to that very quesiton.

I also believe, as an aside, that if Dubya goes kicking at hte door of the CIA for some heads, there'll be issues. Sure someone will fall on their sword somewhere down the pipe, but there'll be repercussions.

You miss the whole point about 9/11. It was not that any particular nationality was involved...it was that the US intelligence did not see it coming in the first place. After it happened, the US had to ask itself "what else are we not seeing coming?".

Top to bottom re-evaluation of intelligence date was likely the very first priority after US intelligence got caught with it's pants down. Suddenly all these reports from Iraqi defectors become more worrisome in such a climate. You have a country with a penchant for defying UN resolutions and a grudge against the US. Some sources say they are still working on WMD's and now Al Qaeda is out there trying to get WMD's. (Yes I know there is no proof of ties between Al Qaeda and Saddam and he probably never supported them directly. But Saddam was supporting other terrorist organizations in the Middle East and they do have ties with Al Qaeda). Connect the dots and suddenly what was not considered a threat a year earlier becomes recognized as one.

Time becomes an issue because the UN sanctions are beginning to decay (smuggled oil sold for undocumented income, pressure from Russia, France and China to lift sanctions altogether). With sanctions gone, Saddam could be back in the WMD business inside of six months and likely have nukes in a year or two.

Once Iraq had a nuke, they would be pretty much able to do as they wished (see North Korea for how it affects things. They can almost hold the world hostage and they know it). It would have been a catastrophe for Saddam to get that kind of power and even worse for Al Qaeda to get access to the really nasty stuff.

The US has a bulleye painted on it and it has the obligation to defend itself. Saddam was one of the people taking aim and it was in the US best interest to remove him from power before he could pull a trigger.

Probably a little longer than you did, obviously.
Another 12 years?

A country acting unilaterally, in defiance of the UN, to enforce UN resolutions, is wrong.

This is what really rankles your feathers. Sorry, we don't need a permission slip from the UN to do what we need to do. And since when is a 64-country coalition acting unilaterally?

Did that give the US the right to invade?
Yes. Follow the resolutions or we'll do something about it.

UN resolutions, not US resolutions.
Yawn. I'm sorry, was the UN going to accomplish something? Perhaps Chirac and Putin were off spending some of their new oil money income?

because of the huge monetary fiasco that hte war has become, the US is once again asking for the UN to help

Cost of containment was going to cost more anyway. Besides, cost of the UN administration is what 80%? funded by the US anyway.

didn't consider Saddam an imminent threat
This word means alot to people, but really, what does it mean? Would you prefer him to be an imminent threat? Maybe he could have sent you telegram with his intentions.

Let's not go forgetting that there was something being done. The world wasn't rolling over and ignoring Saddam, work was being done in the form of sanctions, inspections and the like.
For 12 years they "worked" .. err no, they didn't. He continued to build things and hide them from the UN inspectors. That is, when he wasn't kicking the inspectors out that is. Let's not accuse the US of causing the problems in Iraq. That burden falls directly on Saddam and his followers.

This is where my other pet peeve factors in--Colin shows up with his little PPT showing photos and imagery of locations of WoMD, and yet the US withheld such info form the inspectors, so the inspectors couldn't do their job properly.

Your hatred for the US is seething through. This is your speculation or something you picked up from a conspiracy theory website. Again, it was not up to us to force Iraq to disarm. He had to voluntarily. He didn't.

How many of the 9/11 terrorists were Iraqis, and how many were from Saudi Arabia? Any 9/11 justification for the war with Iraq is completely null and void due to that very quesiton.

Powell did not say anything about Al-Queda at the UN. Or are you changing the subject again?

Oh btw, Democracts in congress and the Clinton administration were even screaming about the dangers Iraq presented to the region and to us. I got a list (http://www.mail-archive.com/sam11@erols.com/msg00208.html) of those quotes there. 9/11 didn't change our view THAT much as you're suggesting it did.

One of my favs:

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members .. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." - Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

Did Bush make her say that? I think not. Yet you continue to call him a liar. Or are the intelligence agencies wrong? You've said both so far.

You forget we had also just gone through 8 years with Clinton who spent too much time forcing interns to give him sex and then lying under oath about it than to worry about the safety of Americans. Their are some very enlightening texts on Clinton, the destruction he wrought upon America, and how his administration's failures allowed 9/11. Some suggested reading in no particular order:


High Crimes and Misdemeanors: The Case Against Bill Clinton
by Ann Coulter

Dereliction of Duty: The Eyewitness Account of How Bill Clinton Endangered America's Long-Term National Security
by Robert Patterson

Absolute Power: The Legacy of Corruption in the Clinton-Reno Justice Department
by David Limbaugh

The Final Days: The Last, Desperate Abuses of Power by the Clinton White House
by Barbara Olson

Betrayal : How the Clinton Administration Undermined American Security
by Bill Gertz

People who complain about the Patriot Act and alleged missteps of the Bush administration have a short term memory with how corrupt and terrible it was under the previous administration.

Gulor summed it up perfectly, thanks. We had one strike on 9/11 against our intelligence. And now we have a second strike when it comes to WMD in Iraq.

Some people are blaming Clinton for not allowing us to have "shifty people" as human intelligence, on the ground. People of ill-repute. In fact, you have to be a college graduate to serve our intelligence agencies. At one point in the 90's we didn't have a single human on the ground in the middle east who could speak Arabic. Wtf!

We had that limitation, but France, Germany, and Britain did not .. and they came to the same conclusion we did concerning WMDs in Iraq. What gives?

Anyone besides me get a little deja vu from this thread?

Dereliction of Duty: The Eyewitness Account of How Bill Clinton Endangered America's Long-Term National Security

Very good read... If not more then al little scary.

For 12 years they "worked" .. err no, they didn't. He continued to build things and hide them from the UN inspectors. That is, when he wasn't kicking the inspectors out that is. Let's not accuse the US of causing the problems in Iraq. That burden falls directly on Saddam and his followers.

I wonder how reading comprehension is around here...

Where did I state that the "US causing Iraqi problems"

I said Saddam was being contained. After 9/11, when the US administration was so hell bent on the invasion of Iraq that all refutions of all reasons were shown, Blix was in the country, doing the job he was suppose to do.

And the US pulled him out. Not SH, not anyone else but the US. It was the US that--this time--didn't measure up to what was right and Just. Because SH was (and is) a bad man does not justify the US acting unjustly.

Your hatred for the US is seething through. This is your speculation or something you picked up from a conspiracy theory website. Again, it was not up to us to force Iraq to disarm. He had to voluntarily. He didn't.

Again wrong. I have no hatred for the US. I disapprove of the administration currently in power who used lies and deceit to invade a foreign power. The lies and deceit isn't idle speculation, its fact. Again I say, the inspectors were there, doing their job as mandated by the UN and the US pulled them out. Whether you thought Saddam was playing a shell game or not is irrelevant. As it turns out, he wasn't playing a shell game--he had nothing really legitimate to move around and hide--the inspectors would have found out one way or the other, just as the US inspector just did, except Blix would have done it without the loss of civilians and soldiers, and destruction of civilization.

Powell did not say anything about Al-Queda at the UN. Or are you changing the subject again?

Eh, I'm good at that...Though, I was responding to

I couldn't aree with you more. But you want an axe to grind. I want to be able to trust our intelligence agencies, so that another 9/11 or Saddam Hussein is not allowed to threaten my country again.

You can say I believe in conspiracy theories all you want, but you still believe that SH was actually a threat to your country, when everything that was thought to be a threat was proven not to be such.

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members .. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." - Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

Since I'm not a democrat or a republican, who states something doesn't so much to me. What is said is important--"since the inspectors left..." Well, before the war and after 9/11 the inspectors were there, again, doing their jobs. Saddam wasn't left unchecked. Saddam wasn't increasing his capability. He was a toothless dog and the documetation was there to show that, the inspectors were there to show that, and yet the US invaded anyway. And there's no getting around that.

You used 9/11 as one of the reasons to justify invading Iraq. I pointed out the hypocricy of that by pointing out that no Iraqis were directly involved. Maybe some were--maybe some Iraqis helped in the planning and execution. I don't know. However, I do know that there were many Saudi Arabians involved in 9/11, yet the news is pretty much quiet on that particular front.

You didn't have a strike against hte intelligence concerning 9/11. Bubba left intelligence data that 'terrorist organizations' were looking into using jets as weapons. He may have not left the actual date as to when it was going to happen, but the intelligence community, and Bubba, knew about the threat potential, and that there may have been something in the works. You didn't, but blaming this on the previous administration is absurd. Dubya's administration ignored the intelligence data, just as they slanted the data after 9/11 to suit their desires. The world cried 'foul' on that but they went ahead anyway. 64 countries? Sure. And let's list the countries that stated that the invasion was wrong, using the same 'intelligence data'.

Your republican colours are showing thru.

I'm not a democrat or a republican either, but if "Bubba" had taken the threat any more seriously than "Dubya", changes would have been made in airline security while he was still in office. There were none. It was business as usual during both administrations right up to 9/11. IMO the reason is the so-called intelligence was too vague, too general and buried amidst thousands of other reports of different threats and no one (not Bubba, not Dubya, and not the intelligence services) took them seriously. That is the fault of the people supplying and analyzing the intelligence, not the guy sitting in the Oval Office.

It looks to me like people more or less decide if Bush was lying or just honestly mistaken about the Iraqi WMDs based upon their political bent. If you are more liberal (as most of Europe and Canada are), then you prefer to think he was lying. If you are more conservative, you tend to think he was given crap intelligence and made the only decision he could using that intelligence. I tend to think he was mistaken, simply because if he were so callous as to lie just to get a war, he would also have made sure WMDs were found to cover his tracks. It would have been easy to manufacture evidence if Bush were the scumbag so many of the posters on this board make him out to be. None was because I think he honestly was convinced the intelligence was accurate.

I'm not a big fan of Bush, but I think a lot of people carry their dislike of him to ridiculous extremes.

he would also have made sure WMDs were found to cover his tracks. It would have been easy to manufacture evidence if Bush were the scumbag so many of the posters on this board make him out to be

Too risky, if you think about it, in such extreme cases. I doubt he would be foolish enough to bury some nukes in the sand then discover them. Instead, from a skeptical viewpoint, he sends in traces of uranium and uses it as slight proof? Plants a bio lab with no traces on it, all to raise speculation. Thats much easier to plant, because it holds no conclusive evidence, though it makes the other side doubt.

I know the above paragraph is wrong, was merely pointing out that such measures would not be as easy as you state, Gulor.

If you are more liberal (as most of Europe and Canada are)

Why is this? Why are such large amounts of people in large groups liberals, where in america liberals seem to be the minority? I'll leave that question for some speculation.

Where did I state that the "US causing Iraqi problems"?
Here:
and yet the US withheld such info form the inspectors, so the inspectors couldn't do their job properly.

And the US pulled him out. Not SH, not anyone else but the US. It was the US that--this time--didn't measure up to what was right and Just. Because SH was (and is) a bad man does not justify the US acting unjustly.
As I said 3 or 4 posts back, this was were my "line" was drawn. It was obvious to me and my congress that he was in violation of 1441 and was never going to submit, so we did something about it. I've asked you where your line is but you won't answer.

Since you're so hell bent on letting the UN inspectors finish their work, I'll pretend you said this:
"After the UN inspectors were allowed to do their job! Then there wouldn't be a need to invade."

Sorry, but it wasn't ever going to happen. In order for the inspectors to do it properly and be in full compliance with 687 and 1441, Saddam had to fully comply. He didn't nor was ever going to.

The lies and deceit isn't idle speculation, its fact.
Care to share these facts you have? Lord Hutton just proved Blair didn't lie, and he was basically saying the same things as Bush.

You can say I believe in conspiracy theories all you want, but you still believe that SH was actually a threat to your country, when everything that was thought to be a threat was proven not to be such.

Actually, according to David Kay's Senate hearing, Saddam was even more of a dangerous threat than we first thought before the invasion. But your hindsight being 20/20 that is, is pretty sweet stuff to allow you to make up your mind after the fact like that.

Since I'm not a democrat or a republican
Novel concept for a Canadian.

You used 9/11 as one of the reasons to justify invading Iraq.
I never did, others on this board may have. Others also want to use human rights violations. I clearly said we did not in a previous post because of the problems in the UN (corrupted)need to be fixed first.

You didn't, but blaming this on the previous administration is absurd.
I didn't, someone else did. I blame the faulty intelligence, which we are going to fix thankfully.

And let's list the countries that stated that the invasion was wrong, using the same 'intelligence data'.
Three ? I give up nor really care, sorry.

colours
I love that old English. Cute.

You used 9/11 as one of the reasons to justify invading Iraq.
I never did, others on this board may have. Others also want to use human rights violations. I clearly said we did not in a previous post because of the problems in the UN (corrupted)need to be fixed first.

What 9/11 showed, at least to me, is that our previous policy of containment simply doesn't work in today's world. Countries that harbor terrorists such as Iraq and Afghanistan need to either change and start rooting out these terrorists or we will change them. Protecting the U.S. against terrorists cannot stop at the U.S. border. Sorry.

Yup. Congress (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html) used Al-queda and 9/11 for justification. But Powell did not to the UN.

Anyone ever read Bernard Lewis? I'm gonna have to get one of his books. He's a well known Mid-East historian who argues what our foreign policy has been wrong all this time. We should not be using a policy of containment in the Mideast, as we have for decades. We should be more agressive.

online.wsj.com/article_em...m4,00.html (http://online.wsj.com/article_email/0,,SB107576070484918411-IBje4Nklah3m5uvZ32GcKiEm4,00.html)

Grumblin-

Planting evidence would have been incredibly easy. It does not have to be nuclear, it could have simply been biotoxin cultures planted in a lab, or some leftover chemical munitions from either the Soviet stockpiles or the stuff we captured in the first Gulf war buried in the desert. The crap was/is all over the place, and chemical weapons are very easy to make.

Also, with regards to my description of Canada/Europe being more on the liberal side...are you saying they aren't? According to Hubbe, even the American liberals are further to the right than European ones in the viewpoints they express and I have seen nothing to contradict that in what I have read.

Oops,
Sorry, I mis-read your comment on the liberals... honestly I don't feel competent to speak on the social phenomena outside the US and how it has lead to a more liberal outlook in some countries and not in others. Also, the very term liberal can be misleading in some ways. What one person considers as liberal might not make the cut in another person's opinion.

There are 3 simple justifications for the US going to war on Iraq.

1> The USA's previous war with Iraq was ended with an agreement, and the USA did not consider that Iraq was living up to their end of the bargain.

2> The USA was being charged for the peace. From the ill will generated by American forces containing Iraq to the costs of keeping the troops there: USA was paying for the peace, not the UN. The containment only existed as long as the USA was footing the bill.

3> Iraq was being run by a scumbag dictator. The USA could simply say "hello scumbag dictators. Play along, or we will start knocking you over. The world deserves better. Sadaam is first. By the time we turn ours eyes to you, and you notice us moving troops, it will be too late. So shape up, now."

WMD and links to 9-11 where not valid reasons. WMD and 9-11 where the reasons the USA gave to the world. USA was then upset when the world didn't fall into line.

But ignore me, I'm nobody important. =)

WMD and links to 9-11 where not valid reasons. WMD and 9-11 where the reasons the USA gave to the world. USA was then upset when the world didn't fall into line.

Exactly. They were either huge lies or a huge misunderstanding. Politicians careers have been ended through lies, so some critique needs be put towards bush.

Sometimes when i'm reading these posts I get so angry. Then i realize hey that's what we're fighting for. So everyone has the right to express their ideas and beliefs in freedom.

What I would like to see:

1. Persecution for France, Germany, and Russia because they wanted to take the "moral highground" about their threatened vetoes, even though they were jacking contracts and bribes all along from Saddam Hussein.

2. Stop referring to these said countries, plus Canada, as "the world" because as much as they want to be, they are not.

3. Stop grilling Bush for doing the right thing with the intelligence he was given. The same intelligence that every intelligence agency in the world had for the past 12 years, and everyone knew that Saddam had WMD. See my #1 for reasons of those that want to now restate otherwise.

4. Stop giving previous administrations and politicians a free ride in the press just so they can get elected, by ignoring all their previous quotes in speeches that said the same things Bush and Blair were saying.

5. Stop blaming Bush and Blair for the war. The UN gave Saddam plenty of time to cooperate, he did not.

6. Stop telling me "war is hell" and feeling sorry for the 500+ soldiers killed in the war. You're projecting, just because you don't support the reason their there doesn't mean they don't.

7. Stop accusing Bush and Blair of "lies and deceit." Instead, those terms should go to Saddam Hussein.

8. If you're from another country, stop pretending to have some authority over us and our government. Fuck off, we've done fine for over 200 years without you.

You'd think we invaded Canada or something from all the bitching going on. Eh!

Too bad you're a peon like 99% of us huh?

To bad hes right heh?

I hope he is, I tried this afternoon, when I lied about my schedule and got caught, the "Hey! You'd better look at Saddam Hussein's lies!".