click (http://www.canada.com/national/story.asp?id=46cd9a7e-bd89-4d6d-8312-b98107e60828)

comments?

omg... that poor guy..

Well shows how paranoid our goverment was. I understand in some ways as I live in NY. But to strip someone who was a nationalist of Canada of all rights, to deport them to a sentance of torture and horror. How are we any better then those we damn?

To be honest, I expected this kind of thing to happen (definatly expected it from the US "agencies"). I don't know what some people might think, but there are some crazy people out there that are willing to do most anything in the name of patriotism. People that can go home at night to families and think "just another day at work". America in my opinion has been desensitized to this sort of thing and in so doing it has become easier for us to dismiss them. In closing, the only thing that truely suprised me about the artical was that it was accutally published...you'd imagine the government would be more keen on keeping happenings like this under wraps.

...you'd imagine the government would be more keen on keeping happenings like this under wraps.

Maybe if it was true.

Nihou!

Completely unbelievable. WAY too many rationalization holes in this little fiction to be believeable.

Fun fiction though.


With Tolerance For The Other Kind Of Racism...

Valarian

I'm not saying the thing is COMPLETLEY false.

But its blown WAY out of proportion.

FUCK THE BLACK HELICOPERS ARE AFTER ME!

Its funny tho, usa are bad so it can't be true but bush say gogo WMD and its gotta be true!

Hypocrites.

And here come the roaches

Just what I'd expect to hear from a TERRORIST!

(OK, now that I got the "asshole" out of my system...)

I vaguely remember hearing this story before. About a year ago, but the dates were different.

I'm gonna go with Valarian on this and say that I doubt the veracity of that single letter sent to the newspaper there. Not so much for the reason Val stated, as for the "Didn't I just hear this story a year ago, but with a significantly shorter timeline?" gut-feeling.

Although, if it's true...that's pretty fucking shitty. If anyone can verify this, and help back it up, I'll condemn the fucking Palestinians until the cows come home.

See you on the flip side!

Its funny tho, usa are bad so it can't be true but bush say gogo WMD and its gotta be true!

I didn't see this guy's story backed up with 10 years of refusing inspections, known aresenal (no matter where it came from - save your breath, and put your panties back on), and satellite images. Hell, I'd probably buy it for sure then.

Right now it's just a letter. /sketchy

Enjoy Juicyfruit.

Look at our own history.

Kent state.
Agent Orange
just to name two.

And yet our goveerment screams when other countries do the same stuff. Yell that we must do something to stop them.

We're masters at the coverup game and let's screw our own people, the ones that happened to vote us in.

Yes, it was way past time to handle Iraq. Yes, Clinton whimped out when we had his hide. But Bush pushes it Way to far too. It's way past time americans make our goverment stand up for their wrongs and quit sweeping them under the rug.

And you are?...

Master Damoiel Mindbend
Retired Enchanter of the 60th Season

If Clinton wimped out, but Bush took it too far...what, to you, would have been the ideal happy medium?

I say we take off, then nuke the site from orbit. Its the only way to be sure.

It doesn't necessary create hate for the USA.. but also hate for the Palestinians........


It could be a letter made by a terrorist though to create propaganda... never know!!! but if its true.. then =(

Might have believed it during McCarthy years.. or what ever the guy was called.. cant remember atm.

But it seems a bit .. odd.. like the lawyer thing.. afaik, you have a right to a lawyer OR the right to see a rep. from your embassy.

Thousands of Arab American/Arab Canadians travel everyday, The FBI and other agencies arent picking people out at random and deporting them.

Why did he and this other guy get picked out? I dont know. From all the, albeit one-sided, reports Ive read on this guy, he was deported because of contact with this other individual who co-signed his lease or something of that nature. Does it seem that the US over-reacted? Ya..
If some intelligence source is saying this guy Abdullah Almalki's name, or linking him to some sort of terrorist activity, then this guy who has direct ties to him is entering the country at a time of extremely high security, then yes, interrogate him by all means.. But to deport him was too extreme.
Of course.. What happens in Syria is not the fault of the US.
The middle east is a broken, fucked up place. A place that REQUIRES wholesale changes to be made across the board.
Everything has to change there..

Of course.. What happens in Syria is not the fault of the US.

Whether the story is true or not, deporting him to any other foreign country than the one he's currently a citizen of is fucked up, and yes, given his background, what happened in syria would have been the fault of the US.

They should have deported him into the hands of canadian officials.

On the seventh or eighth day they brought me a document,

then this

I spent 10 months, and 10 days inside that grave.


then this




At three in the morning on Tuesday, Oct. 8, a prison guard woke me up and told me I was leaving





He is SOOO disoriented after only 8 days that he knows TO THE DAY how long he was in a room with no light and cats peeing on him?


THEN,my favorite,he know the DATE and TIME of the torture?What did they do annouce the date and time of easch torture?

This guys NEEDS to be tortured for trying to make people believe this crap

You think this story is fake? Do a few search on the web regarding Maher Arar. You'll find numerous hits including some from reputable sources such as CBC news. You'll find a nice timeline here: www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/ (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/)

Asked yourselves why would the U.S. deport a Canadian citizen to Syria without even consulting Canada? The only answer I can think of is that the U.S. wanted him in a country known to torture something the U.S. can't do here.

Phil(or)

You'll find a nice timeline here:

Interesting how they obtained a timeline.


CBS is one of the biggest supporters of the democratic party there is.

So CBS backing this story in hopes of lowering Bush's approval isnt very surprising.


Does it explain,in the CBS news, his innate ability to know exact times and dates? That would be an interesting read.

Oh, good lord. Now the Candadian Broadcasting Corporation has joined the evil horde of liberal media outlets that spew lies in an vain attempt to bring down the virtuous Republican Party?

First, you neither really read Philor's post nor actually clicked the link to read the article. That's obvious.

Second, the liberal media thing is old and lame. Just because you don't like the way things happen in the world, doesn't give you a right to persecution complex. And it doesn't apply here anyway ( unless the Canadians really are secretly trying to subvert our government ).

Third, while this person's statements haven't been proven ( about torture ), it is quite obvious that he is a Canadian citizen and was deported to Syria and imprisoned there. There is groundswell of support for a full investigation in Canada. So, the "I'm covering my eyes, this didn't happen" bullshit is a pretty sad kneejerk reaction.

He knows the date he goes into a hole, he knows the date he comes out, not hard to do the math and come up with 10 months 10 days. I understand that you walk through life with blinders on, but really, you have to come up with better than that. Who knows, maybe he was wrong, maybe he was there for 10 months 9 days, or 10 months 11 days. Does that really nullify what he says? Considering it was a well known fact he was in prison in Syria after being deported from the United States, I really don't see what relevance your fixation on to the minute accounting of what he was doing is.

Next you'll tell me Syrian prisons are really nice places where they teach valuable life skills during rehabilitation. No fact is in doubt except what happened while inside a Syrian prison. And what our own government says about Syria lends credence to his story.

Fil

This story may or may not be a fabrication.But if you think this kinda stuff doesn`t go on then you so far beyond naive it isn`t even funny.

This story may or may not be a fabrication, but it does go on?

"Although there is no proof, we all KNOW there were WMD in Iraq" right? Where do you choose what to believe and what to NOT believe? I think it was YOU (begging pardon if I mistook you for someone else) saying a couple threads back that there was NO evidence of WMD, but you're going to bite on this one and claim, that even if this is not true, you KNOW it happens anyways?

I am still not convinced of the validity of this situation, and believe me...CNN would be all over that like stink on a Frenchman if it made the current administration look bad. I'll check out the "timeline" and other links here in a few, and see how "valid" I think they are.

If, however, it seems credible, let's keep in mind: His claim is that the amiable, and peace-loving Palestinians are the ones that did all the torturing.

Keep drinking your Ovaltine.

Did he ever say he was a Canadian citizen? Canadian immigration policies are much 'looser' than the United States of America. The country has often been criticized of being a 'safe-haven for terrorists' (anyone else sick of hearing that cliche? :p ) due to such policies.

deporting him to any other foreign country than the one he's currently a citizen of is fucked up
ROFL..

remember from Johnny Dangerously, when they deport Roman Maroni.. "claims hes not from there!"

www.simsima.com/wavs/roman.wav (http://www.simsima.com/wavs/roman.wav)

made me think of that Kiv
:rollin

He was using a canadian passport, inside which (I assume) was a canadian social security number, he was also (allegedly) allowed to see a canadian consule.

I'd say they knew he was canadian, the fargin iceholes.

CBC != CBS

CBC is a canadian broadcast network.

Phil(or)

I keep saying "Palestinians" for some stupid reason. Dunno where I got that idea. "Syrians", it would seem is the correct name.

Anyways...

Seems that the event took place, but the details certainly need to be refined.

- Dual-citizenship. He wasn't just a "Canadian", but also someone that maintained (does one maintain, or just automatically keep citizenship?) "Syrian" citizenship. Why would anyone do that, eh?

- New York. I don't know if there are flights from Tunisia to the Great White North, but what was the reason for the stop in New York assuming it wasn't a layover? Last time I traveled internationally, the only time you run into customs is when you are leaving the boarding and gate area. This was in '97. Frankfurt and Chicago were the same scenario. Maybe it has changed, but if he was just moving from one airline (or aircraft but same airline) to another, why did he end up running through customs?

-Try to not scream "profiling", there are a metric buttload of Muslim Arabs that go through Kennedy every day. Why was he picked out of the pack?

-Syria or Canada were the location options for deporting him. Maintained a Syrian citizenship? Sounds like he got the shit end of the stick when the "Where do we send him, Canada or Syria?" question came up.

-Ridge said in an interview: "The decision was made, based on that information available through the global international intelligence community to effect that outcome." Personally, I'd have said, "Send him to Canada", but ultimately it appears that INTERPOL, CSIS, et al. had a hand in deciding where he went in the end, and the Syrians showed their compassion by being assfuckers when they had him in their possession.

Still too many questions, but I'd say it certainly happened. Why it happened is still up in the air.

I'd love to see what the "official" reasonings were behind the deportation, etc. and am disappointed that they have not yet made the results of any inquiries public.

I would especially like to see what Canadian officials have to say about misleading the US authorities after reading this: "Waldman said CSIS officials visited Syria soon after Arar signed false confessions that he had visited Afghanistan and that he knew other people the investigators were interested in.

"It appears that our people are willing to use rogue states like Syria to do what they're not allowed to do at home," Waldman said. " From <a href="http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1067987409910&call_pageid=968332188774&col=968350116467" target=new>This link</a>

US Authorities send him "back home" after misleading information from Canada?

Oh, good lord. Now the Candadian Broadcasting Corporation has joined the evil horde of liberal media outlets that spew lies in an vain attempt to bring down the virtuous Republican Party?


Sorry ,my fault.

Misread it as CBS.I saw that an FBI agent was involved in the initial "arrest" and it kinda scewed my eyesight.

You know this story has bugged me.
I'm not sure what to make of it, i would hate to believe this is actually (partly) true.
Some things sound very strange.
For instance the guy is being deported to Syria.
Syria and the USA are not best friends so why send him to Syria, the normal procedure is sending him back to the country where the last stop of the plane he was on came from.
In this case that would have been Germany and not Syria.
If this was true that would mean that there is a torture camp in Syria that would torture people to get info against al-queda and halping the USA, well given the standing between Syria and the USA I find that not really believable.
Why would Syria do this?
Only reason I can think off is to suck up to the USA, but well thats a far stretch IMO.

I really don't know what to make of it, it could be true but I need to see some colleborating evidence (for instance the Canadian diplomat or the lawyer) in order to believe it, there are just to many holes in this story.

Again, discussing American foreign policy with Americans is like discussing Catholisism with Catholics. Its all faith. There really is no point as there is no exchange of ideas.

Again, discussing American foreign policy with Americans is like discussing Catholisism with Catholics. Its all faith. There really is no point as there is no exchange of ideas.

Aaaaaand you exchanged what ideas in this post?

This story may or may not be a fabrication, but it does go on?

That`s not what i said,read my posts pls kkthx...

"Although there is no proof, we all KNOW there were WMD in Iraq" right?

Err we do ? I thought most of the educated population,outside USRepublica were under the impression that Sadaam destroyed his weapons years ago.

I am still not convinced of the validity of this situation, and believe me

Where in my post did i say i was ? Didn`t think so... :b

be all over that like stink on a Frenchman

Nice...Throw in an unfounded insult as well.

peace-loving Palestinians

Umm peace-loving ? tell that to the people who were booted out of their homelands and the families of people who were killed by bombings ( though both sides does that shit :( )

Keep drinking your Ovaltine.

I prefer http://www.nmk.co.za/products/beers/images1/stella_logo.gif..You buying ? :D

*Disclaimer* This post is short,I`ve been out.It`s 5:35 am,Gimme a break.

Again, discussing American foreign policy with Americans is like discussing Catholisism with Catholics. Its all faith. There really is no point as there is no exchange of ideas.

Aaaaaand you exchanged what ideas in this post?


I hope english isn`t your first language,as you don`t seem to understand it very well.
To my knowledge he/she clearly stating that there is no point in the exchance of ideas with Americans (though this applys only to ' patriotic zombies ' :) ,as it does as much good is as trying to exchange religious ideas with catholics.

Get it now... ? no didn`t think so.Think for yourself once in awhile,countrys as a whole don`t tend to think well...

As for the Ovaltine crack... I prefer http://www.nmk.co.za/products/beers/images1/stella_logo.gif...(insert anti-american beer insult here)

*disclaimer* It`s late,i`ve been out,etc,etc.. 5:45am...etc

Oops :o that double Stella responce was totally the result of intoxication :) Or maybe....(add flames here) Wooo

Err we do ? I thought most of the educated population,outside USRepublica were under the impression that Sadaam destroyed his weapons years ago.

That being my point. Loads of evidence presented and "it cannot be" (to the "educated" outside the US of course), yet one article (that we agree may or may not be true) - is evidence that this type of thing goes on all the time? Perhaps I'm missing something, or misread what you meant.

Where in my post did i say i was ? Didn`t think so...

Me saying that I am not convinced of the validity does not equate to me saying that you do believe it. Please consider the remainder of the context from which that line was paraphrased to answer any questions you might have about what I was attempting to state there.

Nice...Throw in an unfounded insult as well.

No, that was unkind, uncalled for, and pretty cheap on my part...yet not entirely unfounded. I spent six weeks there. I'll leave it at that. (Who knows, maybe I just kept running into the same Italians over and over again. - Sorry, cheap shot. I can't do this whole thing without some little part of my inner-child popping out to say howdy.)

Umm peace-loving ?

Are you saying that the Palestinians (although I kept referring to the wrong people, I meant Syrian) are violent people?

Never heard of Stella Our-twat (Hello, inner-child!). I'll have to see if it's available over here. What is it? If it's anything like Ovaltine (which I think I had once as a child) I'll pass. I'll buy you a Beck's someday instead, how's that for a bargain?

Remember the Weenie-Whistle? I don't, but I remember hearing about it.

Interesting reading, but shouldn't this be in Real Life Issues?

Patheos
65 Druid
PRISM

To my knowledge he/she clearly stating

To your knowledge...clearly stating? Evidently not clearly enough. Are you guessing, or did he clearly state? You sure can defend...uhhh, wait. What idea are you guessing on that was clearly stated again? My point exactly.

Get it now... ? no didn`t think so.

Good thing I've got you here to guess what was so clearly stated.

It's late there champ, maybe you should go get some sleep, clear your head and try again in the morning.

Udders and clams! Udders and clams!

Interesting reading, but shouldn't this be in Real Life Issues?

I agree.

Your honor! Change of venue, if you will.

My god, it's full of stars...

Nihou!

This topic is getting a tad more interesting now for the discussion here.

Let me ask this, is there another version of that same letter somewhere? I would rather base my opinion on that/those, rather than what others have read into it and "dug up".

The CBS comment is interesting. If it had been ABC in America, I could have really spun that off into some nonsense (since ABC is owned by Disney).

I gotta wonder though...the lawyer...was this an American lawyer (since this happened within U.S. borders), or a Canadian lawyer (is it a lawyer in Canada? I'm somewhat ignorant there, forgive me)? If it was a Canadian lawyer, was it one appointed by the consul, or a private one? And in whatever case it is about the lawyer, I can't beleive they wouldn't use the media to scream bloody murder all over the continent, in an effort to gain attention. This kind of case (from a lawyer's point of view, going by the letter, the client was in custody, then at least simply faded away...many things to slap people over with that) is something of a dream to many lawyers...the kind they later use as a promotion to get into public office.

Ok, what alphabet-soup agency is chartered to be able to deport people these days? Can't be more than three. Anyone know?

Just as a note, I do honestly believe that the American government does some pretty dirty things...'Smirch ops, sanctions, black bag ops, greasings, wetworks, (insert catchy cliche here), etc... BUT if this WAS a 'dirty' operation from the U.S...why are we hearing about it? Do you honestly think they would let this get out into the public eye?

It would be amazingly simple to determine who and what agents picked him up in the airport, starting from the trail of the date of his arrival there. Has the validity of that been checked?

Feh, it's late and my mind isn't quite wrapping around this right now. I'll check back here later.


With Tolerance For The Book Options, And The Advance Check...

Valarian

those fargin corksockers!

To answer a simple question;

Dual-citizenship. He wasn't just a "Canadian", but also someone that maintained (does one maintain, or just automatically keep citizenship?) "Syrian" citizenship. Why would anyone do that, eh?


Dual-citizenship can easily be maintained as it just takes spending at least 3 months in both countries.

I would point out the irony in your posts but I.....oh nm......

Peace be with you.

/em goes off humming Cielene Dion's version of God Bless America.

Dual-citizenship can easily be maintained as it just takes spending at least 3 months in both countries.

Thanks Spek. That mean per year, or period, or per certain amount of time?

I would point out the irony in your posts but I.....oh nm......

Translation: I don't want you to stomp a mud-hole in my ass, but want to make SOME effort to look like I'm really smart, and might be able to put up some kind of fight...if I wasn't such a big, fat, PUSSY.

(The above is just the opinion of The Faust.)

I, like most people, would love spending any amount of time in a nation in which I'd be tortured, and possibly killed.

The requirements for dual citizenship vary from country to country. In fact, all that matters for citizenship is the own country recongnizing it. For example, say some Canadian would travel to the US and decide to stay and apply for American citizenship (perhaps he fell in love with an american). Assuming the US grants him citizenship, the US will no longer recongnize his Canadian citizenship. But Canada doesn't care he applied for US citizenship and will continue to recongnize him as a canadian. Of course, the now dual citizen CAN renouce his canadian citizenship if he so chooses.

Note, many countries have rules specifically stating that if you are granted citizenship by another country they remove citizenship from their own. Canada has considered adding such a clause. Presumably Syria does not.

You asked why would somebody choose to be a dual citizen? Seems to me the more interesting question is why would somebody choose to renouce a previous citizenship? Citizenship gives you rights, why choose to lose them?

As for the stated 3 month rule, I'm not sure where that comes from. Perhaps you meant to be considered a resident. Resident and citizen are quite different. I'm a both a Canadian and French citizen currently living in the US (green card). I've NEVER in my life spent 3 months (in a single year) in France and I haven't been in Canada for 3 month for over 5 years. Both countries consider me a citizen. However, currently, on the US considers me a resident.

Interestingly, I cannot vote in the US (cause I'm not a US citizen), I cannot vote in Canada (cause I don't pay canadian taxes) but I CAN vote in France (although I choose not to). Go figure.

And yes, I did fall in love (and marry) a US citizen. Then again, she's a dual Canada/US citizen herself.

Phil(or)

You asked why would somebody choose to be a dual citizen?

Yeah, the reson being is that I was under the impression that one had to maintain dual citizenship. That meaning they had to pay taxes there, maintain a residence, go visit, fill out forms, or some type of action showing that they still wanted to keep citizenship in that country as well as the one they had moved to.

Given that from what I had read, this guy ran from Syria at age 17 to avoid going into the military (or something similar) and it didn't make sense that he would maintain (going on the previous assumption that one had to actively work to keep this dual-citizenship) citizenship in a country that was probably not too keen on this guy (possibly leading to his harsh treatment much later) - unless there were some facts "accidently" left out.

I'm still wondering what Canada told the US authorities that made them pick him out of the crowd in the first place. After what I have read, however, I have no doubt that he was arrested and sent to Syria via Jordan. I highly doubt he was arbitrarily selected by a game of rock-paper-scissors or 1-2-3 not it.

Thanks for the insight, Philor.

Yes, some countries require you do to something to 'maintain' citizenship. The US requires you to file taxes (although you probably won't pay anything to the US if you are a resident in a country where they have tax treaties). Canada (and France) do not.

In the case of our Syrian born canadian perhaps he was hoping, one day, to return to Syria if the political and/or economical situation changed. Who knows.

I do agree he wasn't randomly arrested and sent to Syria. It certain seems to be deliberate and it's altogether possible this decision was made in collaboration with other goverments including Canada. That's pure speculation of course.

That said when doing my own reading I noticed that the US does automatically photograph and fingerprint those born in Syria, Iraq and other countries regardless of their current citizenship after 9/11. That might have changed since then. I noticed it when reading of a memo from Canada telling people citizen born in those countries to avoid stopovers in the US as a result of that policy. Not that there is anything WRONG with that, just interesting...

Phil(or)

I'd torture him simply on the fact that he admitted being Canadian.

I highly doubt he was arbitrarily selected by a game of rock-paper-scissors or 1-2-3 not it.
Wasn't it because he was related to "Abdullah" something?

Haha yes. Faust > all things not American.

Again. Thank you for backing my point without any knowledge of such.

Your smarts are only matched by your wit and good looks. I bow down to your superior abilities to "converse".

Now where did I put that cd.

I read the story and came up with the conclussion:

Dont leave Canada..stay in your homeland. Well eat your children.

Buz wan't to come for a visit?

Haha yes. Faust > all things not American.

You can stop after the word "things" in that particular statement.

Again. Thank you for backing my point without any knowledge of such.

Anyone care to translate? WTHHJS? (What The Hell He Just Say?)

Your smarts are only matched by your wit and good looks.

YOU KNOW ME!? Well, I disagree on this one. I am not a supermodel.

I bow down to your superior abilities to "converse".

Translation: I cannot compete with you in a discussion, and wonder why I even said anything (albeit not of substance) in the first place.

Now where did I put that cd.

I'll avoid stating the obvious retort to that one.

Faust,

I also play the drums. :lol

As for the visit, I would but as I hold dual citizenship with another country my safety can not be assured by your government. Perhaps if an open election is allowed to take place and a democratic government is put in place I will reconsider. Toodles.

Perhaps if an open election is allowed to take place and a democratic government is put in place I will reconsider.

You'll be waiting a long time. The US is a Representative / Constitutional Republic.

Elections are as they are until the rules change. Don't hold your breath. We'll be sure to not miss any sleep over you not coming to visit.

I never played the drums, but it looks like fun.

Philor mentioned renouncing your citizenship.

Here's a couple handy articles from The Straight Dope on the subject:

How do I go about renouncing my U.S. citizenship? (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_229.html)

Has a guy been stuck in the Paris airport since 1988 for lack of the right papers? (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a990820.html)

The citizenship article covers dual-citizenship, serving in foreign armies while still a U.S. citizen, and several other interesting citizen-trivia points.

The Paris Airport story, on the other hand, is just one of those Straight Dope articles that no reader should miss.

Enjoy.

(Oh, and I've known a number of dual Canadian-Americans..)

The citizenship article covers dual-citizenship, serving in foreign armies while still a U.S. citizen, and several other interesting citizen-trivia points.

Interesting, however i don't see how this apply's to this particular case, the guy had a dual Syrian/Canadian citizenship.

It doesn't directly. That's why Palimax opened with Philor mentioned renouncing your citizenship.

Then again, the method of renouncing is probably more or less the same for other countries.

Philor

This has been a big story in Canada for a long time now, At the moment There is nothing linking Canadian Authorities to this issue last thing I had Read on in the Globe and Mail a Canadian National paper, was that a member of the Canadian media past along Arar's name to US authorities.

Now the above hasn't been prooven its just the latest theory. This is just somce cross border posturing thats been going on in many issues since Bush took office.

Its a KNOWN fact our Prime Minister and Bush detest each so at this moment communication between Canada and the US is at an all time low.

The last couple years our Governments have basically shown a willingness to outdue each other:

1. Softwood lumber - A major trade issue that is currently being resolved at the WTO level and NAFTA tribunals.

2. 9/11 Canada was initially blamed for being the entry point of the Terrorists which was prooven to be false and since then the US has continued to Market that Canada is some Terrorist fat country, it should be noted for these supposed terroists to get to the US they have to go through US customs. The broader truth is there are terroists all over North America, and there are sure to be lots in Canada due to us sharing the longest undefended border in the world and the US being the prime target of terrism.

3. Mahar Arrar has been an ongoing issue between the US and Canada for nearly a year this is not new news just that he finally got out, it might have been the US fault he got to syria it was the Canadians fault it took so long to get him out.

4. Afgahanastan - The bombing of Canadian troops by American's in a friendly fire incident fuled the flames of Canada's Anti Bush hatred, subsequent lack of any real punishment from what appeared to be Pilot error further ticked off the country. The most insulting bit was actually that they Turned this into an Episode of JAG using british troops instead of Canadians and you couldn't have gotten more low class than that for the familys of the victims. However that ones on FOX not on the US government :)

5. War in Iraq - We didn't go and we never supported it mostly cause again Our leader wants basically nothing to do with President Bush.

6. Mad Cow scandal - Yes Canada had a Mad Cow a single friggen mad cow that came from the US, and after international third party investigators had given the golden seal of approval on our clean up of the issue the US continues to keep the borders closed to Canadian beef which has killed the industry, what once was the most pro american province in all of Canada Alberta now considers them public enemy number 1. Its been viewed mostly as retaliation by bush for not joining the coalition of the willing same as the softwood lumber issue that the americans keep losing in court.

7. Wheat trade dispute - This ones just starting but similar to softwood US industry is worried about it so Bush is putting duties on Canadian wheat

8. Drug Trade dispute - And the most vocal trade dispute since softwood lumber is the Canadian online pharmecys selling into America and under cutting the Giant American firms that for most intents and purposes have some pretty outragous prices there downloading onto americans to subsedize there lower price markets throughout the world. Back to the fact our Prime minister and Bush despise each other there has been no work to resolve this issue.

So whats all this mean it means that the last 3 years with Bush vs Chreitien have been bad for both our countrys. Chreitien and Clinton got along great but the Right wing bush and the left wing Chreitien do not see eye to eye put on that many slights by Bush just to piss off Chreitien have then been viewed by Canadians as pot shots at them. This has created Americans and Canadians bickering at each other at record highs!

Mahar Arar was just another blunder in the last 3 years of Canada/US relations and here is the bright side in no less than a week Prime Minister Chreitian is going to resign and the incomming leader Paul Martin is widley considered to be much more US friendly and hopefully Paul Martin can patch things up with Bush. I think a change of leadership in both countrys is ultimately the Answer, Canada's new Prime Minister will be crowened in a week and it looks like by opinion polls bush isnt going to around for a second term. Hopefully it will mean a return to the good relationship between the US and Canada I for one have always thought its a special relationship and one admired around the world.

The drug issue predates both leaders and is simply a result of drug companies funding new research by maintaining high pricing of drugs in the US.

It's true the leaders of both countries don't like each other and it has a wide variety of effects on our relations.

As far as the person deported from the US, does anyone know precisely why he was deported? Did he have connections to terrorists of any sort? If he did, then it is likely he was deported to Syria instead of Canada to make it less likely he could re-enter the US. As noted, our borders with Canada and Mexico are like swiss cheese. It's much harder for someone to get in from elsewhere however.

Well according to the News up here he's a free man, and no links to any terroist groups have been reported. In one news report up here. It was stated that US agencies have used this tactic with success in the past since Syria has no issues with torture its been done before that the US deports terror suspects to Syria to have them tortured as part or an interigation process it was said in the report that its been very effective for the US to do this.

I expect thats partially what happened here the problem was its was a citizen from a prominant country and a non US citizen.

Its like I have always said, Invade Canada, that long a friendly boarder is just wrong. Beside they get to wear such cute Mountme hats(anyone know what movie that is from?).

I really doubt he was sent there to be tortured for information. For one thing, Syria and the US are not on very good terms if you haven't noticed. I would expect the cooperation from Syria in any sort of "investigation" to be just about nil.

Random travelers are not typically seized ....there must have been something that triggered a response of that nature.

Then again, the method of renouncing is probably more or less the same for other countries.

No they are not, there are several country's that don't allow you to renounce you're citisenship and several that expect you to pay a sum of money (around 10000$ usually), this is usually hidden behind a draft note for there army.
Pay the money and you don't have to serve in there army (several middle east country's have this mechanism, for instance Turkey).
These country's are offcourse not very happy with people, especially young men, renouncing theire citisenship, so they make it as hard as possible and in many cases practicly impossible (Having to visit you're town of birth is not really an option for a refugee).

Random travelers are not typically seized ....there must have been something that triggered a response of that nature.

I believe that having a a Syrian citisenship (albeit dual with canadian) could have very well been the trigger here and doesn't he live in a city one of the terrorists lived in (not sure of this)?

I seriously doubt merely having a Syrian citizenship was enough...as someone else stated the volume of traffic through the US of people from all over the middle east is substantial. Why was he picked out amongst many? Something does not add up here. It could be he was "set up" by someone who does not like him.

It could be he was "set up" by someone who does not like him.

Well anyone could have set him up really.
Was shortly after 9-11 and it's not that far fetched that some terrorists pointed a finger at random people just to get them arrested.
If they point there finger at enough there is bound to be one mistreated.
Then they point there finger at the US government screaming: See what they do to innocent people!

But still if this was the case you can very easely argument that the US should have taken better care in extradeiting him.
That is offcourse if all that is in the article is true and there is no other info being withheld.

Regardless what the trigger is the main issue is do you deport somebody where it's likely he will be tortured? Of course it's altogether possible the US didn't realize he'd be tortured which IS possible since it seems the fact that he was tortured was unknown until he was freed. Then again, there is evidence that torture of prisonners is commonplace in Syria.

Here's an interesting article from the Washington Post implying that the US does routinely send suspected terrorist to other countries which might be able to 'gather more information' than the US: www.washingtonpost.com/wp...3Nov4.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A522-2003Nov4.html)

There is a completely unrelated case in Canada of the Syrian Hassan Almrei. The reason I bring him up is that Canada accepted him in the country as a refugee in part because Syria would likely torture him as his father was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. This is the same terrorist group Mater Arar is suspected to have ties to. So Canada accepts him but since 9/11 he's been detained w/o access to lawyers/courts (much like those in Guantanamo Bay) for the SAME REASON he was accepted in the country!!! Better than deporting him back to Syria I suppose. He's in the news since he's on a hunger strike demanding better treatment, in particular that his solitary cell stay at 72 F.

You can find many articles about Hassan Almrei by simple search. For those prefering an american perspective here's an article from the Washington Post: www.washingtonpost.com/wp...3Nov7.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11481-2003Nov7.html)

Lastly, for those that consider Canada a hotbed of terrorism here is a quote from the CSIS (Canadian equivalent to the CIA) With the possible exception of the United States, there are more international terrorist organizations active in Canada than anywhere in the world. For more info go to: www.csis-scrs.gc.ca/eng/operat/ct_e.html (http://www.csis-scrs.gc.ca/eng/operat/ct_e.html)

Phil(or)

For those who didn't read the original link - it states that the US had a file on him and already had him linked, by a rental agreement signature many years prior to 9/11, to one of the terrorists involved with the 9/11 incident.

The "evidence" of relationship, at least according to the statement by Arar, was flimsy at best. Also, according to the statement by Arar, he told US authorities many times that he would be tortured if he was deported to Syria and requested that he be deported to Canada - his home and current residence.

Arar stated that he was in New York on layover to catch a connecting flight to Canada. Im not sure how the New York airports are laid out, but security around Seattle airport is crazy and you go through checkpoints to get to almost anywhere in the terminal. It is quite possible that he had to change terminals and go through a security check point to get to his connecting flight which would be why he was detained by customs/security.

All in all a travesty of justice and Arar has full right to be upset over the treatment he received by US and Syria a FULL YEAR after 9/11 incident. If you ask me, this is a case of Homeland Security going apeshit for more reason than a casual acquaintance with a terrorist.

So what we have here is someone who has had some sort of contact, whether it was a business arrangement (rental) or a friendship, with one of the terrorists involved in 9/11. I can definitely see *why* he was deported. As far as *where*, it seems the US is playing hardball and sending people to the least desirable place legally justifiable. It would not surprise me that a vindictive streak is active here. You won't find much sympathy for terrorists or their supporters in the US these days.

It may also be that the US authorities assumed this guy would walk the instant he hit Canada. Given the pathetic state of security at the US/Canada border, they likely deemed it a wiser choice to send him to where he will be detained for questioning and unable to re enter the US easily. If he had been sent to Canada, he could likely have re entered the US at any time if he chose to.

It would be interesting to read this guy's file at the FBI. Is he really an innocent bystander or is he part of the Al Qaeda support structure in North America? I doubt we will ever know for sure.

I believe the 'connection' you mention is Abdullah Almalki. He is another dual Canadian/Syrian who has been investigated by the RCMP (canadian federal police) on possible connections to Al-Queda (regarding the selling of computer equipment to someone who might have then sold it to somebody else...) and possibly the Muslim Brotherhood (a Syrian Terrorist group). Note, Abdullah Almalki is still in a Syrian prison held w/o charges and according to Arar has also been tortured.

That said, I haven't read anything saying that Almalki was related to 9/11. That's news to me.

That said, let's all assume these people ARE part of a terrorist group. Is it okay to send them to Syria KNOWING they will be tortured? And if your answer is yes, then why don't we just take a huge step backwards in human rights and torture them in the US and get the same ununreliable information the Syrians would.

Phil(or)

since it seems the fact that he was tortured was unknown until he was freed.

Not entirely correct, while he was still in Syrian custody there were reports by a London based human rights organization that he was being tortured (http://www.cbc.ca/stories/CBC/2003/08/06/arar030806)

For those who didn't read the original link - it states that the US had a file on him and already had him linked, by a rental agreement signature many years prior to 9/11, to one of the terrorists involved with the 9/11 incident.

No where in that story does it say Abdullah Almalki was linked to 9/11. He was arrested in Damascus by Syrian police in May '02 while visiting family. Before that he had been in Canada. I seriously doubt that someone suspected of being involved in 9/11 would have been living peacefully in Canada from Sept '01 to May '02. Nor would Canadian authorities be trying to get him released (http://www.canada.com/search/story.aspx?id=eaf6fdfe-3570-48cc-a9da-8b0818d1490f) from Syria.

I honestly don't think the government will ever reveal what information they had on Arar, and that is really the worst thing about this case. I find what happened to him deplorable, but I doubt it was done indiscriminately. I feel the agents involved believed they were acting on sound evidence. The question now is whether that was good evidence or bad evidence. Once upon a time, the right to confront the evidence against you was a staple of our legal system, but not in the age of secret evidence. If it was bad evidence, we have a moral responsibility to own up to it. If it was good evidence, it should be published to prevent a terrorist from garnering public sympathy. And if I am wrong and the agents knew they were on shaky ground, well, public scrutiny is a cornerstone of a free society.

Fil

Let me state for the record I do not approve shipping someone off to be tortured. I pointed out why I think it was done, not that I think it was the right thing to do (I don't).

If there was *any* information that a foreign national has links to known terrorists (tied to 9/11 or not), then I do support deportation. However IMO he should have been deported to Canada as requested, not to Syria.

If there was *any* information that a foreign national has links to known terrorists (tied to 9/11 or not), then I do support deportation.

I would support prosecution.

Let's say for an instance he is a terrorist, what would prevent him to get on the next plain back to Canada and cross the border back into the USA?
I really don't understand why he was deported in this case. Deportation in this case is quite useless, unless you could be sure that he would not jump on the first plane back.
Which would support the "deliberate" theory.
It would be foolish for the US to think that they would get away with something like that.

As I said this case just does not make sense.

You have to be able to prove a crime was committed to prosecute. If he is just a sympathizer or someone they suspect but can't prove is up to no good, the most they can do is deport you.

Yeah, he could just cross the border again. But the alternatives are to jail him without proof or deport him as far away (Syria) as possible where he will be tortured. Neither one is a good option IMO. The authorities chose to deport him to Syria as opposed to jailing him with insufficient proof of a crime. I personally would not have done so based upon what little I know. Granted, the authorities may have a lot of information we are not aware of.

So, with a little help from google this is what I am getting out of it..

He has ties to known or at least suspected ties terrorists(during a time when there was a confirmed plot to attack the US embassy in Ottowa).

There was enough evidence of that to detain him at the airport(evidence forwarded to them by Canadian law enforcement, from a joint US/Canadian investigation of him prior to his detention).

They deported him to a country he was a citizen of(this is the point where the US responsibility for him ends.. Canadian law enforcement also pushed for a Syrian deportation).

They did so in order to prevent him from any possible border hopping from Canada(and because Canadian security officials didn't want him back).



We are not the babysitter for the Syrian penal system. The idea that the US is responsible for how other countries treat their prisoners is absurd. If there is a problem with his treatment it should be taken up with Syria. In addition, if he had so much trouble with Syria perhaps he should not have maintained citizenship there.

Canadian law enforcement agencies worked hand in hand in his deportation.

Canadian embassy officials knew he was being detained. When he didn't arrive his family played phone tag and ended up with the Canadian Dept of Foreign Affairs the same day he was due to arrive. He was allowed his phone call to his family while detained and through that requested a lawyer. He was visited by a Canadian consular official several days before he was deported.

Given all of that(which is the last part of his story until his actual imprisonment that is verifiable) in addition to the fact that Syria's constitution explicitly prohibits torture, I do not see anything the US did wrong here.

It's interesting what you see if you get both sides of the story.

www.frontpagemag.com/Arti...sp?ID=9308 (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9308)

ottawa.cbc.ca/regional/se...ar20030430 (http://ottawa.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=ot_arar20030430)

www.ospolitics.org/legalw...deport.php (http://www.ospolitics.org/legalwrites/archives/2003/10/22/the_deport.php)

www.oefre.unibe.ch/law/icl/sy00000_.html (http://www.oefre.unibe.ch/law/icl/sy00000_.html)

We are not the babysitter for the Syrian penal system. The idea that the US is responsible for how other countries treat their prisoners is absurd. If there is a problem with his treatment it should be taken up with Syria.

Allthough strictly (and possibly legally) speaking this is right there is still the issue of human rights.
If a country knows or suspects that the subject is going to be tortured in the country he is being deported to, I do not see how you can justify sending him there then.
We are talking about a "political refugee", this means that the Canadian government judged that it was to dangerous for him to stay in Syria and therefor has granted him political assylum.
So in fact in a prior issue it was allready judged by Canada that it was to dangerous for him to be send back to Syria.
I don't believe that saying we didn't do it ourselves so we are not responsible is a valid argument in this case.

to the fact that Syria's constitution explicitly prohibits torture

Lol thats a good one, that sure prevents it from happening lol.
The rest of the constitution reads like a communistic manifest.
It's a nice read though. (I know its not nice of me but i could not stop the occasional chuckle while reading it)
The amnesty site stopped this chuckle very quick though

web.amnesty.org/library/eng-syr/index (http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-syr/index)

In addition, if he had so much trouble with Syria perhaps he should not have maintained citizenship there.

I allready pointed out that he might not have had a choise in this matter.
found this in the last second to last article :

Actually Arar had no choice on the matter of his dual citizenship. Syria does not allow its citizens to renounce their citizenship. Once a Syrian, always a Syrian.

There are however a few items in the article that, if true, also indicate the canadian authority's as being partly to blame.

Where do you get him being a political refugee?

He wanted to get out of military service so he immigrated to Canada...something which can be got around by simply paying a fine.

www.dfat.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Syria (http://www.dfat.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Syria)

As for sending him to Syria...Canadian officials not only knew it, they were pushing for it as well. This guy had been the target of a joint investigation by the US and Canadian governments before this happened(and the evidence for nabbing him at the airport was forwarded from them).

There is clearly much more to the story than the guy wants to admit..I'm sure the US/Canadia don't go around doing joint investigations on every Syrian that now lives in Canada..nor do I suppose Canadian authorities tell US immigration to detain(and later tell them to deport) people at the airport without a decent amount of proof.

I also found something from www.freemaherarar.com/art...21019.html (http://www.freemaherarar.com/article20021019.html) that suggests he tried to skip out on some security measures(Syrian citizens traveling into the US are required to register with immigration for fingerprinting and photo, and he did not).

OMG Amerika sends people we do not want here to countries who treat people worse then we treat people.

Please just do not come here. It will be bad for you. This place is justy fucking scary.

Where do you get him being a political refugee?

He wanted to get out of military service so he immigrated to Canada...something which can be got around by simply paying a fine.


Well actually I more or less assumed he was based on the fact that he left because he did not want to go into millitary service and the immigration works in Holland. The rules for immigration might have been different in Canada.

If he would have come to Holland or most other western European countries he would not have been allowed to stay unless he was a political refugee. We have strict rules on immigration and we generally do not allow immigrants from third world countries into our country. We do however make an exception for political refugees. They are granted asylum if they can prove that it is not save for them to go back to the country they are from. If they can't prove they are going to be prosecuted they are not allowed to stay.
Syria is one of the countries we accept refugees from.

I just assume Canada is simular, I might be wrong in that assumption though.

But I really don't think that Canada would allow anyone into the country simply based on the fact that they did not wanne serve in the Army, if it was really that easy to get out of (by simply paying a fine, provided he had the money to pay it and as I stated earlier the fine is often something in the 10000$ range).
If it really was that simple I doubt Canada would have taken him.

Then there is also the fact that he was still a minor when he went to Canada, that very well might have played a part in him being accepted into Canada.

There is clearly much more to the story than the guy wants to admit..I'm sure the US/Canadia don't go around doing joint investigations on every Syrian that now lives in Canada..

I think you're right here

nor do I suppose Canadian authorities tell US immigration to detain(and later tell them to deport) people at the airport without a decent amount of proof.

Well judging by the reaction of the Canadian government they did not do this, however some of the articles state that some "rogue element" did give permission.
It might be a single man's decision going against protocol or against the rules.
I really can't explain the reactions of the Canadian authorety's otherwise.
There is alot not clear and I have serious doubt all the info provided here is correct, to many things just don't fit.
One thing is for sure someone somewhere made some errors in judgement.

I also found something from www.freemaherarar.com/art...21019.html that suggests he tried to skip out on some security measures(Syrian citizens traveling into the US are required to register with immigration for fingerprinting and photo, and he did not).

Well this could have very well be some form of misunderstanding or miscommunication or a lack of understanding of the rules.
He was not traveling into the US and he was traveling on his Canadian passport (assumption, but its save to say his Syrian passport would have been expired), so he might believe that did not apply to him.

Fucking terrorist.

here is the latest on this case from Canadian press, gives the US a pick me up in this story.

www.globeandmail.com/serv.../National/ (http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031120.wxarar1120/BNStory/National/)