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Thormir
10-23-2007, 02:21 PM
The year's long case against charity Holy Land Center ends in mistrial (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-na-holyland23oct23,0,1540715.story?page=1&coll=la-home-center). U.S. District Judge A. Joe Fish declared a mistrial, but not before it became clear that the government's landmark terrorism finance case -- and one of its most-costly post-9/11 prosecutions -- was in serious trouble.Juror polling resulted in two jurors stating that their views were incorrectly tallied, thus the mistrial. It's unknown whether the government will retry the case. Some other details from the article:President Bush announced in December 2001 that the Texas-based charity's assets were being seized, and in a Rose Garden news conference accused the organization of financing terrorism. Monday's outcome, however, raised serious questions about those allegations as well.

"I think it is a huge defeat for the government," said David Cole, a Georgetown University law professor specializing in 1st Amendment cases and terrorism prosecutions.

"They spent almost 15 years investigating this group, seized all their records and had extensive wiretapping and yet could not obtain a single conviction on charges of supporting a terrorist organization."
...
Georgetown's Cole said Monday's outcome reflected flaws and overreaching in the government's long-running case against Holy Land.

"One is that the government's theory here was a real stretch under the law, because they were seeking to hold these individuals responsible not for funding Hamas, which is a designated [terrorist] group, but for funding non-designated groups that the government claimed were fronts for Hamas."

Additionally, he said, the case should raise questions about the administrative process that enabled the government to shut down Holy Land almost six years ago, long before criminal charges were brought.

"That was a summary process that involved no trial, permitted the government to rely on secret evidence and barred the defendants from ever introducing their own evidence in court. Now we see when they are required to put their evidence on the table, the government is not able to prove a single charge," Cole said.


Next is the case of Abdallah Higazy, an Egyptian national staying at a hotel in NYC on 9/11. The hotel found in his room a device used to communicate with airline pilots, and Higazy was arrested. Higazy denied having anything to do with the device or 9/11, but the investigator stated that life could go badly for his family back in Egypt if he didn't confess:Higazy alleges that during the polygraph, Templeton told him that he should cooperate, and explained that if Higazy did not cooperate, the FBI would make his brother “live in scrutiny” and would “make sure that Egyptian security gives [his] family hell.” Templeton later admitted that he knew how the Egyptian security forces operated: “that they had a security service, that their laws are different than ours, that they are probably allowed to do things in that country where they don’t advise people of their rights, they don’t – yeah, probably about torture, sure.” Higazy later said, "I knew that I couldn't prove my innocence, and I knew that my family was in danger." He explained that "[t]he only thing that went through my head was oh, my God, I am screwed and my family's in danger. If I say this device is mine, I'm screwed and my family is going to be safe. If I say this device is not mine, I’m screwed and my family’s in danger. And Agent Templeton made it quite clear that cooperate had to mean saying something else other than this device is not mine.”


Higazy explained why he feared for his family:


The Egyptian government has very little tolerance for anybody who is —they’re suspicious of being a terrorist. To give you an idea, Saddam’s security force—as they later on were called his henchmen—a lot of them learned their methods and techniques in Egypt; torture, rape, some stuff would be even too sick to . . . . My father is 67. My mother is 61. I have a brother who developed arthritis at 19. He still has it today. When the word ‘torture’ comes at least for my brother, I mean, all they have to do is really just press on one of these knuckles. I couldn’t imagine them doing anything to my sister.And Higazy added:



[L]et’s just say a lot of people in Egypt would stay away from a family that they know or they believe or even rumored to have anything to do with terrorists and by the same token, some people who actually could be —might try to get to them and somebody might actually make a connection. I wasn’t going to risk that. I wasn’t going to risk that, so I thought to myself what could I say that he would believe. What could I say that’s convincing? And I said okay

And so he confessed. Not long after, an airline pilot arrived at the hotel looking for his radio, and Higazy was set free. He sued the hotel and investigator, and this recent case judgment says he has a case and may sue for damages.

Here it gets interesting. The opinion posted on the web at the Court of Appeals was pulled and, eventually, replaced with a redacted version (http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov:8080/isysnative/RDpcT3BpbnNcT1BOXDA1LTQxNDgtY3Zfb3BuLnBkZg==/05-4148-cv_opn.pdf#xml=http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov:8080/isysquery/irlf97f/1/hilite). On page 7, the opinion is interrupted by the following:This opinion has been redacted because portions of the record are under seal. For the purposes of the summary judgment motion, Templeton did not contest that Higazy's statements were coerced.The Court -- or someone with authority enough to compel the Court -- decided that FBI techniques for extracting confessions (even or especially false ones) wasn't the sort of thing the public should know. However, a site that tracks court decisions had already captured the original (http://howappealing.law.com/HigazyVsTempleton05-4148-cv_opnWithdrawn.pdf), which contains the text quoted above.

It will be interesting to see how Higazy's case proceeds in the eventual face of "state secrets" that will most likely be brought to bear in the agent's defense. An internal inquiry cleared (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A02E5D81F39F935A15752C1A9649C8B 63&n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/H/Higazy,%20Abdallah) the FBI agent of wrongdoing in 2002.

Kelraz Bladesinger
10-23-2007, 03:08 PM
Thats pretty disgusting. It so easily could have been any of us booked in that hotel room in New York on vacation.

Furtivus
10-24-2007, 02:35 PM
I agree with the concurrence in Higazy. The real issue, if true, is the agent lying to Higazy's defense attorney about the statements made during the polygraph. From the facts, the hotel is the real culpable party. Wonder what he managed to settle with them for...

Kelraz Bladesinger
10-24-2007, 05:00 PM
I very much disagree with you there. Some housekeeping woman finds some mechanism dealing with planes in a room after a plane smashes into the World Trade Center they fucking better tell the authorities. Its the authorities job, and not Miss. Merry Maid's, to investigate if the equipment was used or not and who's property it was.

Furtivus
10-25-2007, 10:19 AM
If you bothered to read the decision, you would realize you are wrong on the facts. There's a reason the hotel was sued and settled.

Kelraz Bladesinger
10-25-2007, 02:50 PM
How am I wrong exactly?

The security guard lied, so what? Witnesses are incorrect fairly often and one would hope thats something the federal investigators should know by now. One statement, lie or truth, should NEVER be the basis of keeping someone prisoner for over 30 days and to threaten their family. Even if the device had "property of Abdallah Higazy" engraved it never meant that he used it to contact terrorists.

I thought you were a lawyer? I can't but hope that is a lie. Have you never learned how investigations are supposed to be done? How interrogations are supposed to be handled? How under extreme stress witnesses often misunderstand or mistake what they've witnessed, and how under threat of torture people will often say whatever they want their interrogators to hear - regardless of the truth?

Blame the hotel who lied about the info and not the FBI who threatened to torture his family and enprisoned him without trial for over a month? Seriously?

Furtivus
10-26-2007, 09:23 AM
Read the case again Kelraz. To claim the guy was "enprisoned" [sic] for over a month without a trial is wrong. A judge denied him bail (I believe he had at least 2 hearings and was represented by counsel throughout). A housekeeper didn't just find a mechanism and report it to police as you stated. You're wrong there too. The hotel moved the mechanism into his room and then lied to investigators about where it was found. Gross negligence if not intentional misconduct. Perhaps the hotel security guard didn't like Higazy's name or his ethnicity.

Kelraz Bladesinger
10-26-2007, 09:47 AM
The hotel moved the mechanism into his room and then lied to investigators about where it was found.

No, they said it was in his safe when it was found in another room at least month after the fact. The hotel, like every other hotel in New York, manually collected all belongings from all of the rooms so their evacuated clients could pick them up. Yes, you can find fault with the hotel but you're blindly letting the FBI violate the defendant's rights - and look what happened? He was innocent and locked up for a month and had his family threatened with torture. You think this is ok? I can't imagine going to college and getting locked in jail instead of being able to take my final exams for no reason other than I'm of Arabian descent. Your take on this is simply racist and disgusting.

Furtivus
10-26-2007, 11:41 AM
No, I'm not ok with what the FBI investigator allegedly said if it is true (which an inquiry determined he did not say). However, the hotel's repeated lies were what led the FBI to investigate in the first place. I find it hard to believe you would excuse the hotel's rascist attitude so easily.

Taleren Bloodsong
10-26-2007, 11:48 AM
To me it's a lot easier to forgive a private entity for racism than the federal government. I feel it's more reprehensible that our federal government would practice overt racism. Not that any racism is ok.

Kelraz Bladesinger
10-26-2007, 05:51 PM
Furtivus, the hotel isn't the private individual who lied. You need to make up your mind. Though your morality is skewed blaming the hotel, or the guard, but not the FBI and their legal system.

From the facts, the hotel is the real culpable party. Notice how Furtivus never said it was the guard that was wrong, its the corporation that owns the employeer of the guard to him that was incorrect and deserved the penalty.

Not to mention he's overlooking the racist acts of the FBI interrogators who - working for the government - are supposed to have passed various background checks and have proven themselves to not be racist.

Thormir
10-28-2007, 10:18 PM
Ever wonder what happened to all the people kept in our secret prisons abroad? Turns out that it can be hard to tell (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/26/AR2007102602326.html?hpid=topnews).

Bylimet Spiritwalker
10-28-2007, 11:26 PM
And this from the Bush-Cheney police state surprises who?

Sixee
10-29-2007, 10:46 AM
Wouldn't a police state be a country that keeps its own citizens under lock and key, rather than a bureaucracy that loses track of "enemy combantants?"

Furtivus
10-29-2007, 02:47 PM
Respondeat superior, Kelraz, look it up.

Thormir
10-29-2007, 03:06 PM
Respondeat superior would hold that the hotel is at fault due to the actions of its employee. Likewise, therefore, it would hold that the FBI is at fault due to the actions of the employee. An internal inquiry conveniently cleared the agent of wrongdoing, but the judgment I cited in the original post permits Higazy to sue for damages.

Bylimet Spiritwalker
10-29-2007, 06:51 PM
a bureaucracy that loses track of "enemy combantants?"

Yeah, right.........and the Dolphins are going to win the Super Bowl this year!

Sixee
10-30-2007, 09:48 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

Occam's razor (sometimes spelled Ockham's razor) is a principle attributed to the 14th-century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_century) English logician (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logician) and Franciscan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franciscan) friar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friar) William of Ockham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_of_Ockham). The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenomenon) should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothesis) or theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory).

So attributing the situation of the "missing unlawful combatants" to some nefarious plan seems sort of silly.
You find it easier to believe in a deliberate plan to do this, rather than a beauracacy that makes mistakes?
You better get a tin-foil hat on quick....

Lleauric
10-30-2007, 05:42 PM
Choosing between the Bush Administration either lying or being incompetent isn't that easy Sixee.

Bylimet Spiritwalker
10-30-2007, 06:59 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_Razor)



So attributing the situation of the "missing unlawful combatants" to some nefarious plan seems sort of silly.
You find it easier to believe in a deliberate plan to do this, rather than a beauracacy that makes mistakes?
You better get a tin-foil hat on quick....

I express my doubt in a vague explanation of "missing" and you decide to attribute that to my belief in a nefarious plan? I think we know where the tin hat belongs.

And it is not the "beauracacy" that is holding a CIA prisoner. I do not believe for a minute the CIA has ever lost track of one of their prisoners.

Sixee
10-30-2007, 11:40 PM
I express my doubt in a vague explanation of "missing" and you decide to attribute that to my belief in a nefarious plan?

Well, you defenitely equated the situation to a "police state".
Last time I checked, most people tend to frown on that kind of abuse of the people by its government.
Unless, I'm misreading what your intent is, and you are in actual support of the Bush/Cheney cartel...

I do not believe for a minute the CIA has ever lost track of one of their prisoners.
Well, then you shouldn't believe the premise of that whole article.

I think we know where the tin hat belongs.
That's your own business, dude...:eek: