http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7299212.stm

- Following the Burmese protests a few months back, I'm suprised no one has mentioned this.
Are we witnessing the death of religious movements in the East? They've always maintained a prominent position in Far Eastern societies, and still do in troubled places like Pakistan and Thailand, but in Burma and now Tibet (China...if you so wish) their authority and position has come under physical pressure and I think we're indeed watching the triumph of secular authority and order.

Whatchya reckon?

Being from the wild west, I think its ludicrous. However, not my problem. I know...crappy answer...but thats all I have for other countrys problems these days. Let the smart Euro countrys who usually stand on the soap box when the US screws up deal with it. Let us know how it fairs out, not talking about you either Halo...Brits have more than done enough with the US with regards to creating and solving world problems...more so creating!

I've been keeping an eye on it. The PRC info control system has worked rather impressively -- most Chinese know very little about what's going on in Tibet.

I would hardly consider it the death of religious movements, given the number of people taking the side of the religious monks and teachings, and marching in protest.

It is simply another in a long line of steps taken to stifle the religious freedom that is anathema to Communist rule. It never succeeded fully in Russia, and won't in China either, in the long run.

'It never succeeded fully in Russia'

- But reducing Orthodox Christianity from 85% at the turn of the century to 20% today...I'd say it succeeded pretty well. But not fully, aye. But does it need to fully? Weakening religious authority to the point of it not constituting a threat to authoritarian order is as successful as one could hope.

Numbers can be deceptive, since the only people that are being reported on are those worshipping openly.

and it has to be mentioned that in soviet they, meaning the politburo, were using the churches in order to control people.

This will not be the death of spirtualism. this is the begining of the end of communist China.

It's romantic to think that the underdog religious movement's resistance to its might oppressor somehow paves the way for the tyrant's fall, but that's a very unlikely scenario.

I'm going to have to agree with Thormir. This really pales in comparison to other things China has been doing for a long time.

Repercussions? We dropped them out of our top 10 human rights violators list.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/12/america/rights.php

wonder where the US is on that list ?

Go capitilist China. Xerox Hong Kong a billion times.

you wonder where the US is on its own list? i imagine its in a pretty good spot.

Repercussions? We dropped them out of our top 10 human rights violators list.


Mighty big of us, considering we are possibly worse violators of human rights, with Bush/Cheney in charge, than China over the past 7 years.

As bad as we've been, we still don't even begin to compare to China.

They openly run concentration camps for the purposes of harvesting organs for the wealthy, for example. That kind of thing makes Bush/Cheyney look like big teddy bears.

Mighty big of us, considering we are possibly worse violators of human rights, with Bush/Cheney in charge, than China over the past 7 years.

We've done some pretty horrible things to other people over the years but China has us handedly beat on things done to their own population. You'd have to go back to our handling of American Indians (the FBI-sponsored massacres of the early 70s being the last real example of) to find something comparable by reprehensibility, and even that doesn't really compare by scale.

To even compare to China is pretty horrendous, especially from a power that uses a casus belli based on moralism.

My brother is in China this month. He told me that when ever anything about Tibet comes on the news the TV just goes blank until whatever news source is done reporting it. Any websites that have Tibet mentioned are blocked, complete censorship.... yeah the U.S. is JUST like China.

Mighty big of us, considering we are possibly worse violators of human rights, with Bush/Cheney in charge, than China over the past 7 years.Byl, please,we get you hate Bush/Cheney, but this is beneath you.

yeah the U.S. is JUST like China.


Yeah, sarcasm at its finest there Fild. People have no idea how bad things can really get when they still have the U.S. to point at and blame....

Ever wonder what happens to poeple inside China that point thier fingers at the government and blame?

I seem to remember tanks being rolled out the last time that happened....

When is someone going to bring up the Branch Davadians in comparison?

The Chinese governement does whatever it pleases. Human rights don't matter when you have a population in the billions. The value of a life is less than a widget their factories produce. The outcry of other nations doesn't matter when your cheap labor is part of almost every major company's business model. You can have profits or a China that concedes a little ground on morality issues. Governments may take a stance that how China runs its affairs is wrong but companies, the ones that generate the tax revenue and the pay checks, couldn't care less and its the big companies that have the government's ear more than the individual voter.

As far as religions dying out...well, the old dogmatic religions that are millenia old have no place in the modern world since they do not translate into the context of the modern world. Pacifist = Doormat.

I seem to remember tanks being rolled out the last time that happened....

When is someone going to bring up the Branch Davadians in comparison?

The only comparison is that both are a case of government giving no concessions to idiots.

Tanks are slow moving. The protesters had plenty of warning and time to move out of the way. The Branch Davidians decided to torch their compound and didn't have the common sense to exit the building. Common sense might have even kicked in at the point the tear gas grenades were flying through the windows.

Dumb.

Sometimes its best to retreat and fight another day but these guys felt that martyrdom was best and thus their causes died with them.

The Branch Davidians decided to torch their compound and didn't have the common sense to exit the building. Common sense might have even kicked in at the point the tear gas grenades were flying through the windows.


Uh yeah, they intentionally had a tank fire a flame-thrower into their compound after it had been fumigated with combustible gas. Those damn sneaky Davidians.

Apparently some disagree with my comparison of the US under Bush/Cheney to China, on human rights issues.

Yes, China is disgusting in this regard, but is it not just as bad or worse when the country touting itself as the godsend of democratic freedoms imprisons people without charges or the ability to know their charges or consult with lawyers for years at a time; when the Vice President's henchmen can assemble charges against a sitting Governor of the opposite party and have him sentenced to prison, based on "crimes" that are well known to have been committed as well by members of the Vice President's own party; when the President can thumb his nose at the sitting Congress after they pass legislation banning torture and say "Fuck you, I will authorize torture if I want"; when the sitting President enacts Presidential Orders allowing him to put the country under martial law and allowing him to sieze property based on events that he decides fit a specific criteria?

Yes, China sucks bad in their human rights record, and everybody knows that. We, however, are supposed to be a lot better, and we fucking are not under these thugs and traitors in office now!!!

Bring on some more neg reps for that now!

[Uh yeah, they intentionally had a tank fire a flame-thrower into their compound after it had been fumigated with combustible gas. Those damn sneaky Davidians.

What color was the tank? Do you know the exact molecule of the compound they fumigated the compound with? What kind of coffee was the roach coach serving the jackbooted government thugs that fateful day? Did they have Splenda or just dumb old Sweet and Low?

I don't. There is lots of stuff I don't know.

Malse, help me out here. You never seem to make a mistake, especially when it comes to information concerning events that calls for the government to make a position and then there is what actually happened. Reguardless of who set the fire, common sense dictates that you get out of the building on fire. Perhaps both the Chinese and the United States governments figured that Fire = get out of building and Tank Rolling Towards You = Move yer ass.

The Davidians didn't exit the building. Now unless you have proof that our government chained all the doors closed then all I can say is touche. I might be wrong on a few debatable facts but don't take pity on a bunch of idiot cult members just to spite me.

Here is another opinion on the whole fiasco. Its a wikipedia link, which is hopefully not a governement manipulated site procreating misinformation upon the ignorant masses:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Davidian

lolz Branch Divideans!!!! You guys are killing me. I'd much rather live under our thugs Bush/Cheney than spend any amount of time under Chinese rule. Give me a break here....

What color was the tank? Do you know the exact molecule of the compound they fumigated the compound with? What kind of coffee was the roach coach serving the jackbooted government thugs that fateful day? Did they have Splenda or just dumb old Sweet and Low?



Combat Engineering tanks used bombs to puncture holes in the walls of buildings so as to pump in CS gas ("tear gas") and try to flush out the Davidians without harming them. The stated plan called for increasing amounts of gas to be pumped in over two days to increase pressure. Officially, no armed assault was to be made, and loudspeakers were used to tell the Davidians that there would be no armed assault and to ask them not to fire on the vehicles. When several Davidians allegedly opened fire, the FBI's response was to increase the amount of gas being used.[9]

After more than six hours no Davidians had left the building, sheltering instead in a cinder block room within the building or using gas masks.[16] The official FBI claim is that CEVs were used to punch large holes in the building to provide exits for those inside. Most Davidians dispute this claim because the "exits" were blocked by debris, structurally unstable, elevated and largely inaccessible due to smoke and large quanitities of tear gas. Several Davidians were blocked when a floor above collapsed, and nearly all Davidians said they feared being shot were they to leave.

At around noon, three fires started almost simultaneously in different parts of the building. Even then, as the fire spread, only nine people left the building.[9] Most Davidians attest that those remaining had no opportunity for escape.

The remaining Davidians burned to death as fire engulfed the building, with footage being broadcast worldwide by television. In all, 74 died. FBI Special Agent in Charge Jeff Jamar prohibited fire crews access to the burning buildings until after the blaze had burned itself out, due to the danger of explosives within the fire and possible weapons fire from surviving Davidians.

Nothing remains of the buildings today, as the entire site was bulldozed by the ATF just two weeks after the end of the siege.

Yeah, this is clearly cut and dry.

Try reading the Texas Ranger report on the incident. They don't exactly say "The FBI and ATF deliberately murdered 74 people" but it's about close as you can get to it. Somebody fucked up big time running that operation, from the illegal use of military resources contrary to the Posse Comitatus Act all the way through the final hours of the siege, and never fessed up -- the antithesis of the supposed accountability that sets us apart from authoritarian states like China. 74 American citizens who were falsely accused of crimes they did not commit by accusers who knew they hadn't died at the hands our of federal agencies, in our names.

Maybe it was all a big mistake, maybe there was never any ill intent on anyone's part. I'd like to live in that world, but I somehow doubt we do. If you want to discuss it in detail, start a new thread.

Nice bit of selective copy and paste there. You would make a fine editor for a news publication/broadcast. There really is no need to argue semantics on this though. No new thread. This subject is a tangent though from the original subject. Sorry if I didn't do my homework first as a result. Yes the governement does some horrible things. Were the Branch Davidians a dissident group that the government murdered? If you call the laundry list of crimes David Koresh supposedly perpetrated a political statement, then sure. They were not in that compound holding hands and singing Kumbaya while sitting on that arsenal stockpiled for an anticipated showdown with the federales while having nothing but the most innocent of intentions. They planned for a war, got one, and lost. Unfortunately, most cults are borderline Darwin awardees and this leans more towards "tragic accident" then "government sactioned murder". Branch Davidians are certainly no Buddhist monks. David Koresh has nothing on the Dali Lama, who is not seeking to make his point by violent means. Buddhism has something positive to offer the world, which means it will endure inspite of whatever governements do to try and stamp it out.

I'd much rather live under our thugs Bush/Cheney than spend any amount of time under Chinese rule. Give me a break here....

Indeed!

Funny thing is, Clinton was the Prez during the Branch Davadian fiasco, not Bush/Cheney (Yes, I know, hard to believe they were not involved somehow). In fact, the person who approved the assault was Janet Reno.

I don't remember either one being brought up on any charges in regards to this situation, only a reoccuring role on SNL for her.

Please don't quote Wikipedia as fact. Especially when there is a Bright Orange exclamation point at the top of the article stating:

The neutrality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV_dispute) and factual accuracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Accuracy_dispute) of this article are disputed.

I was going to say that, Wikipedia is a terrible source. Used to remind me of Crist0 when we'd argue and he'd quote Google sources.

This is one of those cases where a credible source is whatever the person wraps their opinion around.

Please don't quote Wikipedia as fact. Especially when there is a Bright Orange exclamation point at the top of the article stating:

Thank you for re-iterating my point. I'm glad we're all keeping up here.

I have absolutely no idea what the hell you are talking about Malse. Maybe you can point me to the post where you made the similar distinction about the validity of that particular Wikipedia article.


Sarcasm translates well on the Interwebz . . . (see what I did there?)

There is a link in the wiki. "Waco Siege".

Big shock.

Lummus quoted Wikipedia. I quoted another Wikipedia article that pointed out a number of questionable points of contention between various sources. I gave a reference to one of the best of the available official reports on the subjects (the report from the Texas Rangers), which incidently isn't Wikipedia.

Do I really need to spell this stuff out? The incident in question is still highly contentious and numerous variances exist amongst accounts of what happened -- the only thing we know for sure is that there was sufficient amount of known misinformation and deception on the part of several Federal agencies that it's safe to say something Not Right (tm) went down and blaming people for burning to death is a little naive, to say the least.

I've got a bouncing ball someplace if this is still confusing.

Funny thing is, Clinton was the Prez during the Branch Davadian fiasco, not Bush/Cheney (Yes, I know, hard to believe they were not involved somehow). In fact, the person who approved the assault was Janet Reno.

I don't remember either one being brought up on any charges in regards to this situation, only a reoccuring role on SNL for her.


Ummm...I believe the siege was planned and executed undr Bush Sr. Note the date.

Ummm...I believe the siege was planned and executed undr Bush Sr. Note the date.

Was Janet Reno working for Bush Sr?

Ummm...I believe the siege was planned and executed undr Bush Sr. Note the date.

Feb. 28 1993, shortly after Clinton was sworn in.

Edit to add: That's when the whole thing started, the raid wasn't until more than a month later.

FYI, it was that dastardly Sixee who took this thread from Tibet and China to the Branch Davidians, at post #19. I blame him for the derail. ;)

Ummm...I believe the siege was planned and executed undr Bush Sr. Note the date.

Even if that were the truth, it still has nothing to do with Bush/Cheney.....;)

Regardless, I didn't mean to derail, but was trying to draw a comparison between how China tends to deal with things, and how the U.S. has reacted to a similar situation, in the past.

You can debate the "worthiness" of the Branch Davidans vs Bhuddists, but you still haven't touched on the heavy-handedness of how each government reacted to the situation.

To note: I don't think anything to this degree has occured under the current administration. That could be a good or bad thing, depending on your perspective.