http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137017,00.html

I am really getting tired of the false accusations from Mr. Kerry and the dems.. No there isn't going to be a draft, no social security is not going to disappear Jan 1, no we are not suppressing the minorities..

Seriously, wtf? I am sure the Right does it to, just seems to be coming more from the Left..

well 4 years ago we were hoping for a good candidate and look what we got :(


heres to another 4 years of hoping for a non-retarded candidate

Mr. Kerry is drowning in a sea of dropping posibilities. As such he's begun casting about for anything that might be floating....

Thankfully he and his team aren't too bright.

Fandros

The problem is people are sucking up this shit. Hell watched an interview of a UWW student in Madison, Wis yesturday. When asked why are you here..Kerrys little party with the BOSS..well because it looked like something fun to do and in my support of Kerry. Next question..why are you voting for Kerry? ..."Well im not sure why" was her answer.

I see this time and time again.

I'm awfully sorry Ibu but that last post was pretty hard to follow, but the point gets across anyway I suppose. :)

Well, I think what he was trying to say was, he watched an interview yesterday, they asked the Boss (bruce springsteen?) why he was in wisconsin with Kerry, and he said well it looked like it would be fun and would support Kerry.Then when they questioned the young college student, she said she was voting for Kerry, but couldn't explain why, likely another one of the 'He's not Bush!' people.

I just cant wait for november 2nd.

That seems to be the general consensus. I'm not a big fan of Bush, but at least he and his supporters have something to say. When you see 5 interviews of Kerry supporters after a debate and all they can say is, "Well, his diction is great, his tie was nice. He won!"

Hopefully once all the old people who gobble up everything that's fed them by political candidates die off, we can have some sort of insurrection and get a newer, most trust-worthy face on politics.

I think talid should run for president vs halo. That would be sick.

It's PAINFULLY obvious that Kerry is grasping at straws in these last few days. He (along with the media) will say just about anything to get ellected.

First Saddam took them, then the Russians took them. Then the explosives weren't even there. All of this was blown out of the water by a TV crew from Minnesota.

So suddenly they remember these guys who cleaned out 250 tons of TNT and detonation cords on the 13th. Really sad. The only reason they released this was so they could get a few gullible people to believe what these guys did actually had something to do with the missing RDX, HMX, and PETN. Fox left the part of the news conference out where they admitted that they didn't see the seals that can be seen in the videotape from the 18th. Fox left out that Di Rita acknowledged: “I can’t say RDX that was on the list of IAEA is what the major pulled out. ... We believe that some of the things they were pulling out of there were RDX.”

The administration is just throwing out anything hoping something sticks. And you guys think Kerry is desperate? Hardly, this election is very nearly in the bag, and Bush knows it. But at least he found a few gullible people to believe this story.

Fil

It's coming from both sides Talveran...it's gotten to the point where you can't trust any mass market media....left or right. You have to read several version s of the same story and reason the truth lies somewhere inbetween.

From less biased (or at least biased the other way) sources, there's a big question whether this unit touched any of the IAEA tagged munitions in question...conclusion on this one is very much out. But not if you listen to the Kerry camp. In this kind of chaos (war that is) one can't expect 100% success.....Many..many times more tons of this type of munition was found secured and/or destroyed.

I love this one from the Bush camp "John Kerry voted against Body Armor for our troops". First...Bush sent them to war in two countries without it. :rolleyes: Second, Kerry created a bill to provide the 87 billion (of which body armor was a very smalll part) on the provision the Bush tax breaks were repealed (that bill didn't make it anywhere, it was really just a gesture).

You can go on forever with plenty of examples from both sides. The point, make your decision based on reading media that has bias from both sides and try (maybe in vain) to glean the truth, which usually lies somewhere in the middle. Don't listen to the canidates, parties or other election based orgs...you won't find solid information there.

Peace all!! ...here's to a well run problem..no ...litigation free election!!! ;)

Peace all!! ...here's to a well run problem..no ...litigation free election!!!
It's a pretty safe bet some lib somewhere will disenfranchise a vote somewhere throwing this whole mess intot he courts for weeks on end.:rolleyes:

First Saddam took them, then the Russians took them. Then the explosives weren't even there. All of this was blown out of the water by a TV crew from Minnesota.

So suddenly they remember these guys who cleaned out 250 tons of TNT and detonation cords on the 13th. Really sad. The only reason they released this was so they could get a few gullible people to believe what these guys did actually had something to do with the missing RDX, HMX, and PETN. Fox left the part of the news conference out where they admitted that they didn't see the seals that can be seen in the videotape from the 18th. Fox left out that Di Rita acknowledged: “I can’t say RDX that was on the list of IAEA is what the major pulled out. ... We believe that some of the things they were pulling out of there were RDX.”

The administration is just throwing out anything hoping something sticks. And you guys think Kerry is desperate? Hardly, this election is very nearly in the bag, and Bush knows it. But at least he found a few gullible people to believe this story.

Fil
Wrong. The White House waited until they had a better idea what happened before they went off half-cocked. The official statement today was far from diffinitive but it was at least researched to a point where they could explain the situation in a reasonable fasion. Unlike Kerry.

The White House waited
So, Saddam took it, Russia took it, and it didn't exist from the previous three days were what? This administration has had 4 explanations in as many days.

safe bet some lib somewhere will disenfranchise a vote somewhere
Talk about false accusations. Yea, the Democrats are so well known for disenfranchising people. Perhaps you should look at the hearings from Summit County, Ohio today.

MS. KOOSED: Ms. Miller, you filed a challenge to the voting residence of Catherine Ann Herold, who lives at… Barberton, Summit County, Ohio; is that correct?

MS. MILLER: I did.

MR. PRY: And have you ever been to that residence?

MS. MILLER: No.

MR. PRY: Do you know Catherine Ann Herrold?

MS. MILLER: No, I don't.

MR. PRY: You have indicated in this challenge form that the person – that you believe that she does not live at that residence; is that correct?

MS. MILLER: That's correct.

MR. PRY: And what is the basis for you making this challenge?

MS. MILLER: That was my impression that these items that I signed were for people whose mail had been undeliverable for several times, and that they did not live at the residence.

MR. PRY: Did you personally send any mail to Ms. Herold?



MS. MILLER: No, I did not.

MR. PRY: Have you seen any mail that was returned to Ms. Herold?

MS. MILLER: No, I have not.

MR. PRY: Do you have any personal knowledge as we stand here today that Ms. Herrold does not live at the address…

MS. MILLER: Only that which was my impression, that their mail had not been able to be delivered.

MR. PRY: And who gave you that impression?

MS. MILLER: Attorney Jim Simon… He's an officer of the party.

MR. PRY: An officer of which party?

MS. MILLER: Republican party.



Fil

Fital.... the first official White house response was today..... so yes, they waited.

Bise, sorry, but going to have to disagree with you. This was not "official White House", even today, it was a Pentagon press conference. That's pretty technical, I would accept that it was an Administration release. But then you have to accept the Department of Defense release of the satellite photo ( Saddam took it ) and the statements issued by Deputy Undersecretary John Shaw ( the Russians took it ) as Administration releases. I will agree that the White House will not officially say anything other than we are waiting because they don't have any other choice.

I did overstate though, the "they didn't exist" argument was actually put forth by one of those evil liberal media organizations ( ABC ) and not the Administration. However, I will go ahead and hang Guilliani's "the troops screwed up argument" on the President's campaign.

And every one of these is moot since all of them would of had to occur before April 18, since we have clear videotape footage from that day.

Fil

Footage of what exactly? A tape of a guy opening a few boxes in an area that not even the the camera man sure was Al Qaaquaa.. Could it have been? Sure. Maybe not? Sure. Maj. Pearson said today he personally destroyed 7k tons. Who's to say he did not use the 380/150/3 tons that are supposedly missing to blow that 7k up?

That is the key here in my opinion. We have the government trying to piece together a snapshot of what happend last year. Using *every* piece of info at thier disposal. And all it takes from you side if a picture of a soldier standing in front of a box to make it Bush's fault somehow..... that just doesn't seem very fair and balanced.

It is really hard to prove a negative....

But lets just vote for Kerry.... Usama endorsed him.

Wah wah wah, you republicans are all the same.
See you November 2nd. :)

John huh? Original.

Only a dumbass would quote something from Fox news as a fact. The only news organization on the planet more biased would be Al Jazeera.

I also like seing Bush supporters trying to tell Kerry to eat his words. Bush has so many words to 'eat', he could feed africa for years.

Somewhat interesting article, but just a plain stupid subject title.

THe media is doing more harm than good in the elections. Sure the issues get mentioned but there is too much mudslinging, and I'm sorry I don't care how intelligent or well spoken you are, you speak as much as these guys and you are going to make mistakes and say odd things, cause well they are still human (except bush he is a flesh covered puppet of the republican party made for the soul purpose of a winning a bet made but the rich fuckers who control the party)

Can't wait for Nov. 3rd when the crap stops, unless Florida is critical again, in which case I am moving back to Boston.

We have the government trying to piece together a snapshot of what happend last year. Using *every* piece of info at thier disposal.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree here. I see them throwing out a new theory everyday trying to confuse people. And when one gets proven wrong they just grab something else. Maybe if the latest "250 tons destroyed" actually had anything to do with the current issue I could have seen your point, but it was just a smokescreen.

It is really hard to prove a negative....
And the fact that the positive is at least partly proven makes it that much harder.

But lets just vote for Kerry.... Usama endorsed him
You know, I was keeping things fairly civil with you because you hadn't quite moved into the crazy realm like some of the conservatives around here. But that's the line.

You fucking twit. Usama endorses killing Americans. Usama endorses the destruction of our country. Not only is that statement untrue, it is possibly the saddest and most un-American thing I have ever seen. Trying to spin this killer to you political advantage makes me want to puke.

Fil

He's an awful man, but if he can be used to the benefit of the Republican party in anyway, they'll do it!

You fucking twit. Usama endorses killing Americans. Usama endorses the destruction of our country. Not only is that statement untrue, it is possibly the saddest and most un-American thing I have ever seen. Trying to spin this killer to you political advantage makes me want to puke. Whew, for a minute there I thought I had wasted my time :)

Glad to get your blood pressure up....


EDIT: Just wanted to add here that Kerry is basically saying that Bin Laden is free because of Bush. If that isn't spinning Bin Laden to inspire fear per the Democrats then I don't know what is..... Where is the united front? Why is trying to spin him against Bush okay but this isn't?

Feel free to continue puking at your convience....

Trying to spin this killer to you political advantage makes me want to puke.


It's kinda funny how the Republicans have lately been riding on the campaign of fear. Even in the Senate seats this can be seen in the advertisements. One night Dave Letterman did a gag on the Republican National Convention repeating how many times September 11th was mentioned in the keynote speeches....the number was staggering. People call Kerry weak on defense, is it because we went to war twice in two years? Bush's actions after 911 were on the mark up until we called off the search for UBL. However Bush has been an unfailing simpering moron on the war in Iraq, he lied to the country to justify the war and now we are stuck with no end in sight.

I wonder if Bush himself has realized that he is becoming what he (supposedly) hates.

You know what makes me want to puke?



Walter Cronkite. This hot off DrudgeReport.com



CRONKITE: KARL ROVE BEHIND BIN LADEN TAPE
Sat Oct 30 2004 16:31:19 ET

Former CBSNEWS anchorman Walter Cronkite believes Bush adviser Karl Rove is possibly behind the new Bin Laden tape.

Cronkite made the startling comments late Friday during an interview on CNN.

Cronkite said he is "inclined to think that Karl Rove, the political manager at the White House, who is a very clever man, he probably set up bin Laden to this thing."

Interviewer Larry King did not ask Cronkite to elaborate on the provocative election eve accusation.

Developing...

As much as I dislike Bush I do not believe he would be capable of such a thing.

plz.
Drudge? You have a 50/50 shot of that being factual. Im being generous

CRONKITE: KARL ROVE BEHIND BIN LADEN TAPE
The said part is no one is held accountable for these uninstantiated lies.

we called off the search for UBL
Really, when did we do that? Last time I checked we had 20k troops in Afghanistan.

I like when Kerry says "we outsourced the hunt for UBL in the mountains" too, another outright lie. Funny how the media never brings up Tommy Franks' comments about that.

he lied to the country to justify the war
What lie was that? 5 major intelligence agencies said Saddam had WMDs, he used them before. Where did they go? I don't know, maybe Sudan, maybe Iran, maybe Al Qaeda.

plz.
Drudge? You have a 50/50 shot of that being factual. Im being generous
You're kidding me? Drudge has the liberal media running scared and the conservative keep a close eye on him. Drudge has a way of nailing anyone. I would say a much high percentege of acurrecy

Glad to get your blood pressure up....
Awfully sweet of you to consider my health. Thanks, I'm doing great.

Just wanted to add here that Kerry is basically saying that Bin Laden is free because of Bush
Yes, he is. He's been saying that for quite awhile. Way before this tape came out. So, unless you mean to infer that Kerry can tell the future, I am not sure how Kerry staying on his message is spinning this tape.

And, while I'm not 100% sure Tora Bora was a certain thing, Bush did say, "You can run, but you can't hide" over 3 years ago to Bin Laden. There is a bit of truthfulness in what Kerry says. There isn't any truthfulness in the "Osama endorsed Kerry" statements coming from the Republicans like David Johnson ( Dole's campaign manager ).

Now, the Cronkite quote? I don't like that, it was over the top. I don't in any way support it. Honestly, have any of you seen or heard Cronkite lately ( he came out of retirement to do occasional reports on NPR about a year ago )? I have fond memories of him from when I was a kid, but he is extremely old and I fear not in the best of health. During that Larry King show he had to ask Larry what year the last presidential elections were. I seriously doubt anyone not in the exteme fringe takes that Karl Rove thing seriously.

Drudge has the liberal media running scared
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yes, an internet gossip columnist who throws things up before checking facts and then removes them without retraction when proven wrong has professional journalists quaking in their boots.

Though he did get the quote right on Cronkite. I haven't seen the video to see the actual context.

Fil

Awfully sweet of you to consider my health. Thanks, I'm doing great.


Yes, he is. He's been saying that for quite awhile. Way before this tape came out. So, unless you mean to infer that Kerry can tell the future, I am not sure how Kerry staying on his message is spinning this tape.

And, while I'm not 100% sure Tora Bora was a certain thing, Bush did say, "You can run, but you can't hide" over 3 years ago to Bin Laden. There is a bit of truthfulness in what Kerry says. There isn't any truthfulness in the "Osama endorsed Kerry" statements coming from the Republicans like David Johnson ( Dole's campaign manager ).

Fil
Kerry is making it sound like Bin Laden is doing buisness as usual. If Bin Laden had a bomb and was able to use it.... he would have. Maybe Bush hasn't put a bullet in Usama's head but he has disrupted AQ to a point that the organization is on the defensive at the least, and running scared teetering on disaster at best.

So I present to you, sir, that Kerry's representation of the Afganistan campaign is far far more effective than the bumbling, three stooges picture he is trying to paint. He is wrong from way back then and is wrong today.

This election is about one thing.
Iraq. Like it, dont like it.. whatever.. thats just the way it is.

You want to talk about Afganistan?
Fine.. Good job for what it was. But basically all you are doing is putting lipstick on a pig. You have a government in Kabul. They can pass all the laws they want. It doesnt matter. The country is run by and large by regional warlords. They have always done what they wanted in their almost feudalistic fiefdoms, they will always do what they want. Democracy will exist in Afganistan only up to the point that it does not inconvience any particular local warlord, at which point it will just be ignored, at best. Ask any Russian. You cannot impose your will on these people.

Wanna talk about Bin Laden?
Fine. Want to say that Al-Queda is severly crippled? Thats fine too, but the worry I have is you almost never hear "Al Queda plot broken up". We know that the Towers attacks were years apart. We know they strike not for the sake of striking, but in a way to maximize impact and from a direction nobody is expecting. These are careful, patient men with vast resources who seem to live in the shadows.
We got a bunch of people in Gitmo, many of which we are just catching and releasing, only to later wind up finding them fighting on a battlefield in Iraq.
The thing you forget is that Al-Queda is by its nature not a self standing organization. It latches on to movements like a virus and asserts its influence, training recruits and bending ideology. It did this with the Taliban, its done this with Asian muslim groups, its influenced Sudanese Muslims, we've seen the nexus with Spanish Terrorists on the train bombing. And now we can see it working in Iraq. It has latched onto the Baathists, combining resources and tactics, adding finance from Saudi Arabia, and providing a steady influx of foreign fighters. The Al Queda movement has taken such a strong hold that the entire city of Fallujah is about to commit mass martyrdom.
Iraq was left weak, and the Virus has taken hold. The passive training grounds of Afganistan have been replaced by a crucible of Iraq. These fighters are engaged with our troops on a daily basis. The strongest and smartest ones survive and those that follow learn their lessons. Their attacks are being more effective, 50 Soliders ambushed, attacks inside the green zone, each month more US soliders die than in the previous month.

Eight Marines died today. Why? Their lives had honor due to the fact that died in the service of their duty.
But, did they die defending the United States of America? Or did they die trying to fix a mistake? What is Fallujah if not the product of our piss poor planning? Fallujah was NOT inevitable. This could have been avoided if we had made better decisions.
So 8 marines died today. How many Iraqis? How many will be dead before the city is finally flattened?
We oil the jaws of the War Machine and feed it with our babies.

War is not glorious. War is most horrendous act we can deliver to our fellow man. I think this quote sums up the soul of war and its brutal basic nature.

Kurtz : I've seen horrors... horrors that you've seen. But you have no right to call me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You have a right to do that... but you have no right to judge me. It's impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face... and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies. I remember when I was with Special Forces. Seems a thousand centuries ago. We went into a camp to inoculate the children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for Polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went back there and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms. And I remember... I... I... I cried. I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought: My God... the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we. Because they could stand that these were not monsters. These were men... trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the strength... the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling... without passion... without judgment... without judgment. Because it's judgment that defeats us.

Yes, an internet gossip columnist who throws things up before checking facts and then removes them without retraction when proven wrong has professional journalists quaking in their boots.

Just like he threw up a little story about Bill and Monica he broke?

Wanna talk about Bin Laden?
Fine. Want to say that Al-Queda is severly crippled? Thats fine too, but the worry I have is you almost never hear "Al Queda plot broken up".Wanna hear something you never hear? "Al Queda sucessfully attacked us on US soil today ..... film at 11".......

Edit: of course I mean post 9/11

Lleauric's post quoting the Kurtz character played by Marlon Brando in Apocolypse Now sent me back a couple decades in a hurry, heh.

I first saw this movie with several friends who had also served in Nam, and we were watching it with the intention of picking it apart, which we were unable to really do much of it turned out. Kurtz really summed up why the U.S. could not win the war in Viet Nam, and it applies just as well to the war against the terrorists/insurgents/natives rebelling against occupation that we are currently engaged in; our mind-set is such that we cannot engage in, or sanction, brutal behavior the likes of which the enemy practices. Look at the uproar over the behavior in the prison, and you know that the moral highground is where we are required to be by those who support the war.

The terrorist is called such because he inspires fear in his victims; and, to wage a successful fight against the terrorist you must be able and willing to out-terrorize him, and this we will not do. Look at the protagonist in "The Usual Suspects", and you will simply see Kurtz in another venue. He knew how to make people fear him completely.

We may be successful in making arrests, and carrying out legal prosecutions, and decreasing some of the leadership cadre through sorties into the mountainside of Afghanistan, but we are not winning the war as long as the people in those countries are more afraid of the terrorists than of us. And, to win the the war means to become that which we are fighting, and that is to lose the war.......it is a Catch-22.

I blame this long post on forgetting to set my clocks back and getting up an hour early and being unable to go back to sleep. Happy Halloween all:)

Wanna hear something you never hear? "Al Queda sucessfully attacked us on US soil today
Like they need to...they've got 140,000 of our children as prime targets right in their own backyard. They can blow them up on a daily basis.http://69.50.212.152/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

140000 soldiers over there vs 140000 civilians over here...... not even close in comparison.... but I do see your point :)

Like they need to...they've got 140,000 of our children as prime targets right in their own backyard. They can blow them up on a daily basis.http://69.50.212.152/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

The thing is, killing people over here would have 100 times more of an effect. We've had almost as many soldiers killed as those that died on 9/11... but we've been almost complacent about it(unless someone you know died over in iraq). If Al-Queda bombed and killed 10 people here(even though I'm sure they'd do something on a bigger scale), it would shock/scare people more then all the deaths in iraq have combined.

Eight Marines died today. Why? Their lives had honor due to the fact that died in the service of their duty.
But, did they die defending the United States of America? Or did they die trying to fix a mistake? What is Fallujah if not the product of our piss poor planning? Fallujah was NOT inevitable. This could have been avoided if we had made better decisions.
So 8 marines died today. How many Iraqis? How many will be dead before the city is finally flattened?
We oil the jaws of the War Machine and feed it with our babies.I don't mean to sound disrespectful to you LL but what could have been done better? Flatten the city, kill more civilians, go door to door and root out the terrorists? That part of Iraq is against the US occupation, the civilans are against it. They are part of Iraq but only a small part. The majority of the country is reforming and accepting freedom. You don't just march into a country that has never known freedom and say "Ok today your all free, enjoy it treasure it. Cya was nice knowing ya." Granted many less Americans would have died it we did it this way.

This is a part of the country that will have unrest for MANY years.

It bloody, its ugly and it hurts both sides, its war.

Beelziod

There are alot of broken up plots by both foreign and domestic terrorists. For reasons unbeknownst to me they never release the info to the general public.


Fandros

it would shock/scare people more then all the deaths in iraq have combined
Granted....but they can accomplish their objectives much easier in Iraq by killing anyone they can get their hands on...including Americans.

There are alot of broken up plots by both foreign and domestic terrorists. For reasons unbeknownst to me they never release the info to the general public. Good question, Fandros. I guess the over-arching question is, "Does the information you have regarding 'a lot of broken up plots' match the reality of the situation?" If it does not, then your sources are suspect; if it does, then your question has a lot of merit. One possible explanation is that the number of "plots" broken up pales in comparison to the number of attacks on any given day/week/month. In the past day there are 2 more Iraqi officials assassinated and 4 more kidnap victims. One article (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6370525/site/newsweek/) even suggests that the insurgents are winning (and tells us why). I don't think that the insurgents can "win" in any true way so long as our troops are there, but I don't think we and the nascent Iraqi government can "win" either, with things as they are.