At first, I was goign to make a long post, blasting you dirty euros for all the stupid/jaskass things you say, but i thought, no it wouldnt make a difference.

So to put it very simply, I don't think you will ever understand, why so many of us Americans have so much pride in our country and it's accomplishments, or why we defend it and the crazy little things we do so adamantly.

Maybe some day, your way of life will be threatened, and then you will. You'll stop taking your way of life for granted and realize, that Freedom, is not free, it's price is most often payed in blood. And thats why we teach our children to do silly things like salute the flag.

It's respect for what we have, and why we have it. Thats why we do what we do and we are the way we are.

It does boil down to extremely different ways of thinking and ways of addressing problems.

Do I disagree with 99% of what our resident Euros say and do, absolutely, but that's the end result of their culture. Is it wrong or bad? Newp, just different.

But it's a prime example of how difficult it's going to be to unite this world under one form of governt, should we last that long.

In the mean time, I'm still going to make fun of the French though. It's just too much fun!

/looks for her clue bat)

Elemak, you think that the Euros *don't* know what it is like to have their way of life threatened? (laughs incrdulously) Pride in one's country and accomplishments is one thing, but part of the reason that some of the Euros are a bit... concerned about the American nationalism and 'in your face' patriotism that has been particularly in evidence lately is
they've *seen*, first hand, where it can lead before. Talk to anyone still around who remembers Europe in the mid '30s, *before* Hitler started rolling the tanks. What's wrong with a little national pride, patriotic jingoism, etc? Or lets use a much more recent example, Serbia turning a little national pride into genocide? The fact that we're spouting this patriotic rhetoric *and* we recently rolled the tanks across Iraq, a country which posed no imminent threat to us (despite the threat he posed to his own people, etc), without UN sanction and against the objections of France and Germany (think whatever you will of their opinion or their reasons for it), and you have a very valid reason for the EU, amd much of the rest of the world, to be very nervous indeed.

Are we on the slippery slope to fascism? It seems unlikely, given the checks and balances we have in place in our democratic system, but the current administration seems both willing to sacrifice constitutional protections in the name of 'patriotism' and to be motivated by ideology over logic. And while I see nothing wrong of being proud of one's country and its accomplishments (and am very proud to be an American), think a bit about why our custom of mandatory (or at the very least coerced) reciting of the Pledge, the custom of saluting the flag, etc, might seem a little uncomfortable to the folks across the pond...

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Autonomous Collective

Talk to anyone still around who remembers Europe in the mid '30s,

True, Nydia, but I don't think that includes any of the 3 people the post was addressed to. Witness Ytrok's comment in another item: "Why would anyone need a gun?"

Nydia I met a man who remembers Europe from the 30s and 40s, he thanked me, and my parents, and my grandparents, while showing me the number that had been tatoo'd on his arm.

Oddly enough he was a frenchman.

Trust me, I know all about history, and thats part of my point you see, many Euros have forgotten, or try to forget, perhaps some of it is because as Americans we do have the bad habit of reminding them why it is they don't all speak German, or Japanese.

My post is more of a "we're never going to agree, so lets just agree to disagree" and leave it at that, you don't understand us, you might not ever, perhaps if you, yourself lived through some of the things we have, you might understand us, and perhaps if we had experiences similar to yours we might understand you better.

But we havent yet, so knock the bullshit off, the grass is always greener in your own back yard.

Maybe some day, your way of life will be threatened, and then you will. You'll stop taking your way of life for granted and realize, that Freedom, is not free, it's price is most often payed in blood

Lol,ok that comment is just laughable and prooves how arrogant and ill-informed you really are.As Nydia pointed out so eloquently,how many times in the past do you think european countrys have been threatened by tyrannical regimes ? hell the gauls and English were being opressed by the romans centuries ago.Also fyi the US recently has been far closer to being the oppresser than the oppressed.I hope that a decent democrat gets back into office soon,or the US may just turn into the thing they are supposed to hate the most.

Now i`m not saying my countys perfect,in fact i`m disgusted at the recent actions of our government.Assisting the US in the "war on Iraq" was something the majority of the population was opposed to.Yet the prime minister went ahead and assisted anyway.In all the myst of the US and UK crying " they have weapons of mass-destruction!!!! lets get them before they get us! " People were protesting and scoffing at these completly unproven alligations.Now we find ourselves with no evidence of weapons of that sort at all.Which most of us knew was the case all along,and the prime minister is in alot of hot water about flasified reports,misleading dossies,etc
It is highly unlikely that he will be elected again.Can you say the same thing about bush ?


[ edit ] Ohh i forgot to add that i,like alot of european people are very grateful for the US coming to our aid in WW2.Though the US didn`t just assist us because they felt sorry for us.If England had fallen to Germany and they became masters of Europe.Where do you think thier attention would have turned next ?

If England had fallen to Germany and they became masters of Europe.Where do you think thier attention would have turned next ?

Russia?

We coulda taken 'em.

how many times in the past do you think european countrys have been threatened by tyrannical regimes ?

Plenty, you'd think they would clue in to the whole thing.

I was thinking about it at work, I think what it boils down to is some of what Nydia was talking about, but not quite how she put it.

We as Americans are a very Ideological people, we have causes and we fight for them, some are stupid, like the mothers against violent video games, some are good, like Mothers against drunk driving. But through and through we are a very passionate poeple, and we tend to do something about it, and get pissed off when others won't.

It's just a matter of opinion on what matters, to some they don't feel the threat of terrorism is enough to warrant the US prescence in Iraq, and Afghanistan, but then they didnt live through the same things we did in the same way.

My point, is we're never going to reach agreement, some people think America sucks (to include some Americans) they don't like what we do, they don't understand why we do it. And like with any kind of person you can't understand them until you have at least shared similar experiences (walk a mile in their shoes) So just agree to disagree is about the best we'll ever manage.

The main problem with Iraq is that Bush Sr. didn't finish the job properly the first time, handing a clusterfuckage over to Clinton, and now Bush Jr. is trying to do what daddy didn't.

As for patriotism, I think people of most countries of the world are patriotic, some to greater degrees than others.

I also find the entire premise that Americans(meaning the folks that live in the US) are mostly a bunch of arrogant, self indulgent asshole who have a twisted view of most of the rest of the world. If this is so, please tell me why the USA spends more money, more by a longshot, than any other country in modern history to help and aid other countries, friend & even foe. Tell me why there are more charity organizations that provide for people outside our country, than any other country in the world. Tell me why the US government has likely stopped nuclear war on more than one account, and I'm not speaking of the current Iraq or Korea situations.

Yes there are some dumbfuck Americans who are just idiots. But don't fool yourselves, there are equally as many or likely even more Europians who have a totally fucked up bassackwards view of the US and its population. And yes, I've spent a pretty reasonable amount of time in Europe.

So to all you assjackle EU fuckers who are so high and mighty, suck a fat dick!

Maybe some day, your way of life will be threatened, and then you will. You'll stop taking your way of life for granted and realize, that Freedom, is not free, it's price is most often payed in blood. And thats why we teach our children to do silly things like salute the flag.

Maybe you don't know .. but the History of my country goes back pretty far and in that time we have fought multiple wars.
We have had wars lasting 80 years we fought the Vikings, the English, the French the Asians, the Germans etc etc .... We are still here.
Now .. to say that we don't thank the US for assisting all the other Allies is not true. However our gratitude ends as soon as this forces us into wars that we do not support (Iraq).

To say that we hate the US is also pretty foolish but I have come to the understanding that to not support your cause means to be against your cause and that must explain why you feel we hate the US when we dissagree with some of your points of view.

If you want us to thank you every time for what you did 50 years ago I assume you should thank the Dutchies for what we did approx 300 years ago for you.

You seem to feel that the US is better then the rest (at least that is what I get to see on tv, read a lot in these posts etc etc ) and that to us kinda makes you arrogant people (and we are aware not every person from the US is like that). I also know that in times of war (and as I understand it you are at war atm) the American people get together as one strong team against their opponents (also understandable). But you forget something...

First of a lot of European countries are in Iraq fighting at your side (mine included). A lot of Europeans have seen the face of Tyrrany, have seen what 1 man can do to millions of people because people believed in him and followed him. We have seen muder and terror for over 2000 years and we know when we have to think about who to follow and who not to follow.

We do not grow up saluting our flag, we do not grow up singing our national anthem, we grow up to create our own feel and ideas on how we want to love our country and for what reasons. We do not grow up using guns, we can't even buy one, so it is pretty obvious we see absolutely no reasons why people should own a gun.
We don't grow up speaking one language, we get tought at least 4 (Dutch English German and French) at the age of 12+ so we can communicate with the rest of this world and we are not tought to be thinking we are the best of the best on the face of the earth.

The thing is (I think) that you do not or don't want to, look at things from our perspective because you don't see the need or you feel that we should just shut up and do as you tell us. We get tought to fight against people like you. We get tought to never ever follow blindly no matter who is in charge.

To end ..

I understand why you think I hate Americans, I understand why you can not understand me feeling you don't need a gun, I understand why you salute your flag and I understand why you follow your President so blindly into war when he directs you on that path. I don't hate you for it and I don't pity you for it because you all too have a free mind and the choice to follow or to turn around.
We think different, we act different and we are different ... I don't hate you for it. I do understand your agression towards me because I often dissagree with how you do things and you probably feel as if this is a personal attack. So be it then...

Greets...

Btw .. I will change my board handle to my RL name after this so people can make it more personal when they attack me instead of attacking the name of a toon. My RL name is Ralf (pronounced Ralph) just so you know...

I very very much agree with Nydia and Ytrok. Those 2 posts have been the most reasonable ones I have seen in a very long time concerning the whole Euro/US thingie. And they are free from hatred and agression. Read them.

Trust me, I know all about history,
This is a rather blunt statement. Please tell me when was the swiss federation fighting napoleon? Don't look it up! Looks like you don't know everything about history. Think about it.

True, Nydia, but I don't think that includes any of the 3 people the post was addressed to.
None of us 3 lived back when Hitler was around. But every single one of us knows people that were, has them in their families. We see the result of this all every day. It is our daily business. You talk to people that have been there, you hear and see things that happened then and and and. We live in the constant awareness of what happened. And by god I am sure we know at least as well (if not better) what it means to be threatened by a real and serious threat.

Finally drop this goddamn "if we wouldn't be you would talk german now so kiss our feet" argument. It is so so so old and has absolutely nothing at all to do with our world now. The US acted out of personal interest just as much as the dutch did as they helped you for example. Lets just leave it be.


We do not grow up saluting our flag, we do not grow up singing our national anthem, we grow up to create our own feel and ideas on how we want to love our country and for what reasons. We do not grow up using guns, we can't even buy one, so it is pretty obvious we see absolutely no reasons why people should own a gun.
We don't grow up speaking one language, we get tought at least 4 (Dutch English German and French) at the age of 12+ so we can communicate with the rest of this world and we are not tought to be thinking we are the best of the best on the face of the earth.

I understand why you think I hate Americans, I understand why you can not understand me feeling you don't need a gun, I understand why you salute your flag and I understand why you follow your President so blindly into war when he directs you on that path. I don't hate you for it and I don't pity you for it because you all too have a free mind and the choice to follow or to turn around.
We think different, we act different and we are different ... I don't hate you for it. I do understand your agression towards me because I often dissagree with how you do things and you probably feel as if this is a personal attack. So be it then...

Ok guys, I think you missed the point of my post...

once again..

We are never going to agree, it's best to just leave it at that, you dont understand us, we dont understand you.

It's a neat little concept call agreeing to disagree.

Try it, people might just stop threatening to kick your dog

Elemak, anyone else - you just have absolutely no idea.
You've no idea on our perspectives, our outlook, why we get so angry and frustrated.
You're simply too caught up in your flag.
Hence my random insulting posts now, because I'm past being bothered to explain my point of view. It's usually quashed by some twat face gun-ho American replying with 'Nuke 'em all!! God save America, the best place in the world!!11'
It's just... so not worth it anymore.

Oh, and don't you DARE talk to us about our countries being threatend. Do you fucking forget how old our culture and history extends? Jesus fucking christ. This is the entire point - YOU'RE FUCKING STUPID! Arrogance, ignorance, damnit.
Someone else try. It's hopeless.

Too caught up in our flag?

You poor spineless son of an ill conceived convictionless twat.

That's why you don't understand Americans as a whole. That's why you don't get why we feel we are the best.

We DO believe in our flag, we KNOW we are a country that does it's best and we PAY for our freedom. What was the line? Oh, you have to believe in something bubba, least we believe in something that's proven oy?

Keep mouthing your bullshit, we'll keep assuring our weapons are at the ready and our freedoms our own.

Fandros

You've no idea on our perspectives, our outlook, why we get so angry and frustrated.

I'd say we have exactly as much an idea of your perspectives, etc, as you have an idea of ours when you say things like "You're simply too caught up in your flag."

When referring to being threatened, I think it only reasonable to look at current threats. The Hundred Years War doesn't mean much in this day and age, and Germany isn't too worried about Napolean last I checked. Granted, terrorists target countries other than the US, but currently we're at the center of the bullseye.

Talking about the events of centuries past is paying lip service to those who actually did have something to worry about once upon a time. The current context (http://www.theonion.com/3935/top_story.html) is what matters now.

"I wouldn't worry," Harvard political analyst Gregory Peters said. "Sure, the U.S. makes Them mad, but since we have unilateral military supremacy, it's not as if They can do anything about it."

Arrogance is the downfall of all super powers.... if history has shown anything it is that.

Oh and when you say you don't need us ... (us is everyone but the Americans)

Here's something worth reading ...

Little quote, feel free to read the entire article
The epitaph of the Reagan presidency will be: "When Ronald Reagan became President, the United States was the world's largest creditor nation. When he left the presidency, we were the world's largest net debtor nation." In 1980, we had a trade account surplus of $166 billion; by August 1987, we had an indebtedness to foreigners of $340 billion.

www.digitalnpq.org/archive/1987_fall/lending_stop.html (http://www.digitalnpq.org/archive/1987_fall/lending_stop.html)

Perhaps, though sometimes it takes centuries (Romans for example). However, I think it takes a certain amount of arrogance to become a superpower in the first place. Also, being humble never saved anybody either. Ask the poor countries caught between Germany and France in the 19th and 20th centuries or Latvia/Estonia/Lithuania if humbleness brought them protection. Or even Tibet today.

The bottom line is whatever nation is perceived as being "on top" is always resented by most others. Its always been that way and probably always will be. If you have two or three about equal, then you end up with huge arms races and ugly competition for power.

Better to be resented and on top than stuck in a constant state of cold war or under constant threat of being overrun by somebody bigger.

So to put it very simply, I don't think you will ever understand, why so many of us Americans have so much pride in our country and it's accomplishments, or why we defend it and the crazy little things we do so adamantly

Oh but I do, you said it yourself, that’s what you've been thought:

And that’s why we teach our children to do silly things like salute the flag.

Maybe some day, your way of life will be threatened, and then you will. You'll stop taking your way of life for granted and realize, that Freedom, is not free, it's price is most often payed in blood.

It is being threatened, by certain forces in America.
The forces that believe that the USA is the best country in the world,
that believe everyone should think like the USA,
that believe the USA is a role model for the entire world,
that believe the rest of the world should do what the USA says,
that think violence is the best way to get their point across
and most of all the forces that think that the USA is infallible.

We are never going to agree, it's best to just leave it at that, you don’t understand us, we don’t understand you.

This is complete bull, it should read : We are never going to agree, it's best to leave it at that, you understand us, we don't wanne understand you and that will never change.

It's respect for what we have, and why we have it. That’s why we do what we do and we are the way we are.

Maybe you should start respecting other country's and what they have. I think that would solve many issues.

I hope and believe most Americans think like Nydia.
She is spot on with the reason why most of us Europeans are a bit concerned with some off the customs in the USA.
We have seen this before in country's like post-war Germany, communistic Russia, China, north Korea and Cuba.
Not country's particularly associated with democratie and freedom.
That combined with the huge military capability's of the USA (by far the strongest military force in the world) is very threatening.
The attitude "If you're not with us, you're against us and you will be destroyed" is very threatening.
Especially since this is a literary quote (it was said by a 40+ housewife from New-York).
If you do not see why this is threatening then I'm afraid you will never understand us.

We do not grow up saluting our flag, we do not grow up singing our national anthem, we grow up to create our own feel and ideas on how we want to love our country and for what reasons. We do not grow up using guns, we can't even buy one, so it is pretty obvious we see absolutely no reasons why people should own a gun.
We don't grow up speaking one language, we get tought at least 4 (Dutch English German and French) at the age of 12+ so we can communicate with the rest of this world and we are not tought to be thinking we are the best of the best on the face of the earth.


I understand why you think I hate Americans, I understand why you can not understand me feeling you don't need a gun, I understand why you salute your flag and I understand why you follow your President so blindly into war when he directs you on that path. I don't hate you for it and I don't pity you for it because you all too have a free mind and the choice to follow or to turn around.
We think different, we act different and we are different ... I don't hate you for it. I do understand your aggression towards me because I often dissagree with how you do things and you probably feel as if this is a personal attack. So be it then...


ps Ytrok,
We have had wars lasting 80 years
The 80-year war lasted 106 years, in the middle they decided to have a 26 year long break to restock on weapons etc.

ssst Balogh :)

Part of the reason you see a "you are with us or you are against us" attitude from us Americans is to a certain degree it's true. "Allies" are not being friends to us when they help prop up dictatorships bent on conquering their region at the expense of non hostile governments (see Saddam). All the years the Europeans and others bad - mouthed the US for propping up dictators in South and Central America (Pinochet and others) to help our business interests have been utterly shown to be hypocricy.

The US is told we are unpopular because we always meddle in other countries affairs. We support the evil Israelis against the downtrodden Palestinians. We consume too much and are not concerned about the environment. Fine, we get it. You would have us ignore problems beyond our borders, let the Israeli's be killed off because they have no oil and are jewish, stop importing most of your export goods and shut down our economy and scientific research because it might contribute to global warming.

It's usually quashed by some twat face gun-ho American

So much for the idea that the 3 three of you could participate in an item and not insult America.

So much for the idea that the 3 three of you could participate in an item and not insult America.
So far the 3 of us haven't ... maybe you should learn to filter that what is said by 1 doesn't always count for the other aswell.
But maybe that is too much to ask from you...

Get off your high horse. You somehow twisted this item into a criticism of the Reagan presidency and national debt.

Get off your high horse. You somehow twisted this item into a criticism of the Reagan presidency and national debt.
Maybe you should apply for a job with the FBI/CIA with your conspiracy theories ..

It's called text. It's like you choose these things randomly.


Little quote, feel free to read the entire article

Quote:
------------------------------------------------------------
The epitaph of the Reagan presidency will be: "When Ronald Reagan became President, the United States was the world's largest creditor nation. When he left the presidency, we were the world's largest net debtor nation." In 1980, we had a trade account surplus of $166 billion; by August 1987, we had an indebtedness to foreigners of $340 billion.
------------------------------------------------------------

I do understand your agression towards me because I often dissagree with how you do things and you probably feel as if this is a personal attack. So be it then...

Ralf I don't think you do bud. It's not that you or the others disagree with us. It is the way you do it and to the excess you do it. Allot of it could be the language barrier and gets messed up in the translation of it. But when you all seem to turn allot of posts into EU vs US it gets old. Which is why allot of people(US) are so quick to attack you all. Try looking at it that way for a moment and you post your thoughts on how I should look at it and we will work from there.


/Presidential Negotiations off

I wanna be Halo's Brittney!! :(

Mirdorr....

Please .. read the entire text and see it was a response on an article posted by Thromir ..

You don't want to see the "light" I know and I enjoy how you chase me around these boards ... but man please .. stop thinking that I am the Ebil send to destroy all your values, rape your kids and play with your dog .. it's getting old.

Your initial response was logically a stretch in the context of this thread . That should be obvious to even you.

Then, as I've already pointed out, you made some sort of random post pointing out something bad about the U.S.

Ytrok, the "article" I linked to was from The Onion, a satirical weekly "newspaper." I dead-panned it into the rest of my post to add a humorous note to the proceedings here. Ironically, the humor now comes from your taking it seriously. Other articles include:

"FBI discontinues witness protection parade"
"Drug sniffing dog develops taste for bit-o-honeys"
and
"White house denied third mortgage."

Now, not being American it's reasonable to think you wouldn't know what the Onion is. But I find it hard to believe that anyone attempting to present a reasonable point of view rather than just seeking more flame-fanning material could read that article (along with the pics) and not realize that it's a joke.

'Granted, terrorists target countries other than the US, but currently we're at the center of the bullseye. '

- Thormir, you're serious? You think because some terrorists attacked you 2 years ago that America is at the centre of terrorism? Reality check, Britain has been exposed to a hell of a lot more terrorist attacks in the last decade or so than I reckon America has in the last 50 (or more?) years.
Though because you're bombing and killing everything in site I guess the illusion that you *are* couped up in terrorism could seem like a viable thing.

'I wanna be Halo's Brittney!!'

- I'm too good for you!

You are correct, the number of incidents against British citizens is much higher over a given time period. However, he could probably make a valid argument for total number of fatalities given that 2001 is in that time period.

You think because some terrorists attacked you 2 years ago that America is at the centre of terrorism? Reality check, Britain has been exposed to a hell of a lot more terrorist attacks in the last decade or so than I reckon America has in the last 50 (or more?) years.

Oh come off it Halo. America and Americans have been the target of terrorism worldwide for much longer than a decade. The Tehran hostage crisis of the Carter administration, club bombings across Europe simply because Americans were known to frequent those bars. Embassy bombings. A Marine barracks blown up. US naval ships attacked in ports worldwide. Civilians taken hostage in countries around the world. The World Trade Center bombed once before and then destroyed completely two years ago. There are also the instances of domestic terrorism.

Britain isn't immune to terrorism but its stretching the truth to say that your country has been attacked more than ours.

There are a lot of generalizations being bantered around on this board about how Europeans and Americans feel about this that and the other thing. I think what all of us are forgetting is that on this board we are seeing a very thin slice of a large demographic of the populations.

I can only speak about myself and how I feel as an American.

Do I feel like I live in the best country in the world? Most assuredly YES!! But I am smart to also realize that Taino, Halo, Ytrok, et. Al. also feel they live in the best country in the world, and have darn good reasons for thinking so.

The attitude "If you're not with us, you're against us and you will be destroyed" is very threatening.
Especially since this is a literary quote (it was said by a 40+ housewife from New-York).

I certainly hope this quote was about the war on terrorism and not Iraq (which I do not believe is one and the same). Media love to take quotes from ignorant people and portray them as speaking for the country….as has been mentioned here many times over, the media has agendas too.

I as well understand European’s concern with actions of the US and do not expect to follow blindly because your our “allies”. I, being American, do not think your concerns are well founded(especially in your comparison to countries like pre-war Germany, USSR, China, N. Korea, and Cuba) …but then I have, as has been stated many times, have very different point of view.

I do not subscribe to the notion of “So just agree to disagree is about the best we'll ever manage”, once we are their we have stopped talking, we desperately need to continue to talk.

I also complete disagree with statements from unthinking people that say “So to all you assjackle EU fuckers who are so high and mighty, suck a fat dick!” as well as “Do you fucking forget how old our culture and history extends? Jesus fucking christ. This is the entire point - YOU'RE FUCKING STUPID! Arrogance, ignorance, damnit.
Someone else try. It's hopeless.”

These kind of comments are useless to any kind of rational dialog.

” We do not grow up saluting our flag, we do not grow up singing our national anthem, we grow up to create our own feel and ideas on how we want to love our country and for what reasons.”

We salute our flag and grow up to create our own feel and ideas on how we want to love our country and for what reasons.

“We do not grow up using guns”

Me either.

“we can't even buy one”

I can…and should have the right. At

so it is pretty obvious we see absolutely no reasons why people should own a gun”

this point I haven’t seen a need….I don’t hunt :’/

“We don't grow up speaking one language, we get tought at least 4 (Dutch English German and French) at the age of 12+ so we can communicate with the rest of this world

I agree with you, foreign language should be more in the curriculum in the US…it should be required. I very much regret not knowing a second language.

and we are not tought to be thinking we are the best of the best on the face of the earth.”

Hmm…me either. I definitely do not I any way shape or form think I’m better than you. But, as I said before, I think I live in the best country in the world…I hope you do as well ( that is think you live in the best country in the world).

“follow your President so blindly into war when he directs you on that path”

I don’t. I don’t like Bush and disagree with many of his policies. Didn’t vote for him this last time, won’t the next time.

“We think different, we act different and we are different ... I don't hate you for it. I do understand your aggression towards me because I often dissagree with how you do things and you probably feel as if this is a personal attack.”

I get lost in this sometimes as well and if I insult someone on a personal level I try to apologize for it. IMO, it has no place here..or anywhere.

Ytrok, the "article" I linked to was from The Onion, a satirical weekly "newspaper." I dead-panned it into the rest of my post to add a humorous note to the proceedings here. Ironically, the humor now comes from your taking it seriously. Other articles include:

May strike you as really silly .. but nno I have no clue what onion is and when you post that article I take it serious.
Now if making fun of me by posting information from an organization I don't know is what you are after .. then you succeeded.

/applause.

( that is think you live in the best country in the world).
Ehm .. nope. I don't think I live in the best country in the world. It's ok and all but a lot could be improved a lot could be learned and we are by far the best out there.

But thanks for your reply .. appreciated it :)

You should check out their site.. www.theonion.com. Its usually pretty funny.

carry on...

May strike you as really silly .. but nno I have no clue what onion is and when you post that article I take it serious.I have to seriously doubt the brain-power of anyone who reads an onion article and takes it seriously...

So, you're looking at THIS picture:
http://www.theonion.com/images/241/article1731.jpg
Donald Rumsfeld in front of a map with US and THEM written on it?

...and you think it's serious?

Ok, this is EXACTLY why you're unqualified to participate in these discussions. You have NO CLUE. The mere fact that you can read a piece of satire, an article that touches on a serious topic and plays it so sugar-sweet over the top that it'd kill a diabetic, and you think it's REAL disqualifies you from continuing in this discussion.
"The U.S. is surrounded on all sides by Them," Rumsfeld said. "Over 90 percent of the planet's land mass is controlled by Them, and the territories immediately south, west, east, and north of the U.S. are all occupied by Them. Until we can correct this risky state of affairs, it is vital that we maintain our military readiness to intervene whenever and wherever They oppose us."Oh, please, my sides hurt from laughing... ...at you, for believing this to be real.

'Do I feel like I live in the best country in the world? Most assuredly YES!! But I am smart to also realize that Taino, Halo, Ytrok, et. Al. also feel they live in the best country in the world, and have darn good reasons for thinking so. '

- /sigh
Once again the American majority on this board have absolutely no clue.
I think Britain is far from the best country. There is no best country. Shit. I'd rank Britain up there as one of the worst.
Drive-through with another completely useless perspective on how we think.

I certainly hope this quote was about the war on terrorism and not Iraq (which I do not believe is one and the same)

Unfortuanatly it was neither. it was about how they viewed the humanitarian help programs in Africa.
Basically she said : they should support our foreign politics unconditionally or they are against us. when the reporter then asked what should be done to the country's who did not support the USA unconditionally she replied with this answer.


I as well understand European’s concern with actions of the US and do not expect to follow blindly because your our “allies”. I, being American, do not think your concerns are well founded(especially in your comparison to countries like pre-war Germany, USSR, China, N. Korea, and Cuba) …but then I have, as has been stated many times, have very different point of view.


Reading you're post I don't think our view's are that different.
I can agree with allot of them.
I added the comparison to indicate that what you call patriotism, is used in allot of other countries as a tool to oppress and brainwash the people there.
Patriotism in itself is not a problem and off course it's good to love you're country.
But my point is be critical and open to other arguments.
I believe there is not a "best" country nor a "better" one, all countries are different and have there own "charm".

I personally don't feel threatened by patriotism as long as it is not translated into laws.
I think you're now wondering what I mean, let me explain:

The Netherlands are one of the USA's biggest allies. Prob. the biggest next to the UK.
We also have the international court of justice in The-Hague where international war criminals are tried. (people like Milosevic etc.)
This court is supported by the UN and most country's in the world. I say most cause there is 1 exception. The USA.
Why?
Well this is simple the USA does not want any of his citizens tried in this court.
There standpoint is that only the USA can trial a USA citizen, even if its an international war criminal that has committed crimes against humanity.
Now you ask is that all?
Well not quite, as a response to this international court of justice and to prevent a US citizen to be prosecuted the USA has accepted a new law.
The law simply states that if a US citizen is endighted by the international court of justice the USA will invade and conquer The Netherlands in order to free the US citizen.
I think this is a good example where patriotism has crossed the line. It is also a good example of why we in Europe are worried about certain aspects of US society.
If you can pass these types of laws against you're biggest ally and friend no telling what you will do next.

We also have the international court of justice in The-Hague where international war criminals are tried. (people like Milosevic etc.)

Yea. WHY is he still alive again?

Ok, this is EXACTLY why you're unqualified to participate in these discussions.

Maybe you didn't read the topic of this post?

Maybe you should be aware that I do not look at an article inch by inch to see .."what is wrong in this picture".
I took Thormir's post serious .. bad one I guess.

But I am very well qualified to post in a post directed at me. But maybe you didn't read this post from the start.. I won't attack you for it.

WHY is he still alive again
At least we found him ......

I think you are mistaken about the law you mention. There is not a single law in the US that states the US must go to war with anybody. The law (which was a mistake IMO) gives authorization to use force to free US citizens incarcerated by an entity that the US does not recognize as having authority to do so. Effectively that means the President is authorized to jail break any Americans held by the international court under pretenses not recognized by the US. It does not mean he must do so however.

I understand your issue with that law, even as it is correctly described. I don't care for it either, but our elected congress has decided that it should be a law. It could be repealed with the next congress and I hope it is.

The issue the US has with the world court is simply the fact that frivolous charges could in effect hamstring the US military from doing its job. As an example, suppose North Korea invades the South Koreans and US forces are engaged. All the North Koreans would have to do is charge that the general commanding the US forces is responsible for some fictitious war crime and he would have to be removed from command and shipped off to the Hague for a trial. Even if he is completely innocent, the treaty would require him to be taken from his duty, thereby making the North Korean's job that much easier. Can you see how this is unacceptable and unworkable? Also the definition of what is a war crime and what is not has always been very political in nature. For example, knocking out a power station that supplies both enemy military facilities and civilian facilities may be considered by some to be a war crime if they have a political axe to grind. It's a messy issue and with the decline of trust across both sides of the Atlantic, the US is not willing to be hamstrung by political opponents overseas.

Watch what happens the next time a couple of countries who signed up to the treaty get into a spat and I think you will see what I mean.

- Thormir, you're serious? You think because some terrorists attacked you 2 years ago that America is at the centre of terrorism?

Yes, Halo, I'm well aware of Britain's issues with the IRA and don't discount them for a moment. Given the course of the thread I didn't feel clarification was truly necessary. And being one of the more prolix posters on this forum already, I attempted to be succinct and to the point.

"Once again the American majority on this board have absolutely no clue."

no clue to your way of thinking.... get it right....

opinoins are like asshole, everyone has one and no one fucking cares so stfu.





i think they have a classes in euroland, how do hate the united states. You spend more time making up bull shit then doing anything else. personly i would not write fricking paragraphs attacking other countrys because they dont belive the same thing you do. opinoins are different get over it.

One thing tho.. its not britain whos been attacked more or less than the US.. its the English whose the target.

We tend to use Britain and England interchangeably even though one is a subset of the other.

I haven't kept track of all the victims, but I am sure a lot of them are Irish in Northern Ireland, not English. So it's easier to just lump them under British to get both groups of victims in.

Maybe you should be aware that I do not look at an article inch by inch to see .."what is wrong in this picture".That's just it. You don't have to look at that article inch-by-inch to get it. Anyone who knew ANYTHING about this country would have seen it as parody instantly.

That's EXACTLY why you're not qualified to provide any insightful information about this country.

'We also have the international court of justice in The-Hague where international war criminals are tried. (people like Milosevic etc.)'

'Yea. WHY is he still alive again?'

'At least we found him ...... '

- HAHAHHA! Pwned :P Totally.
zenrkscallytail, we don't have classes in 'How To Hate Americans', we actually have spelling classes. Something I think needs your immediate attention.

"I'd rank Britain up there as one of the worst"

Halo, I'm sorry you don't like your country...it's very sad that you live in place you don't like. That does not give you the right to piss and moan and insult people that actually do love their country. I am grateful to live in this country. Is it perfect? No way far from it.

"Drive-through with another completely useless perspective on how we think."

Who is the "we" in this statement? After this retort...I really question that you think at all before you post.

The law (which was a mistake IMO) gives authorization to use force to free US citizens incarcerated by an entity that the US does not recognize as having authority to do so. Effectively that means the President is authorized to jail break any Americans held by the international court under pretences not recognized by the US. It does not mean he must do so however.


You're right, I think you described it a bit better then I did.
He does not have to do it, but he has the right to do so.
It's at his discretion.
The reason why I gave this example is the timing and the attitude of the US government.
They refused to sign the agreement (the only NATO power to do so) and as a reply they passed this law.
Off course the president does not have to attack, but that’s really besides the point I am trying to make.
The point I tried to make was that the moment something happened they did not like want and agree with they responded with a threatening law.
The court is intended to prosecute war criminals that have committed crimes against humanity, nothing more.
We are not talking about killing a few innocent people.
We are talking about people that commit genocide.


All the North Koreans would have to do is charge that the general commanding the US forces is responsible for some fictitious war crime and he would have to be removed from command and shipped off to the Hague for a trial. Even if he is completely innocent, the treaty would require him to be taken from his duty, thereby making the North Korean's job that much easier.


I have to disagree on this point.
The court is not meant to meddle in conflicts when they are going on.
When north-Korea would be so foolish as to attack South-Korea, there will be an international sanction that will entitle the USA and there ally's to attack North-Korea.
Off course North-Korea can bring charges up against the US general, but do you really believe that the court would ask for the general to be shipped of to The-Hague?
Really I don't think so, especially since the North-Koreans are the aggressors in you're example.
The primary targets of the court are the tyrants/dictators and mass murderers. Not the Generals that defend themselves against an attack.
The court only acts after the incident not during and only for the really serious issues.
Then again if this US general would decide to round up all women and children, put them in a stadium and bomb the hell out of them while on a live broadcast made by CNN, well I think he should be taken off his duty immediately.
But that’s hypothetical, I am 100% sure no US general would do something even remotely like that.
But then again so is you're example.

I am actually much more worried what will happen with Sadam Hussein. The UK, The Netherlands and the Australians signed the agreement.
The big question is where he will be trialled and convicted?
The obvious place is off course the international court of law in The-Hague.
But the question is will the USA allow this and if so will they attack the Netherlands to free him and get him to the USA if this situation arises.


Quote:
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We also have the international court of justice in The-Hague where international war criminals are tried. (people like Milosevic etc.)
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Yea. WHY is he still alive again?


Well actually, what we did was give him extensive plastic surgery.
After that we gave him a new identity and nationality and shipped him off to his new home country.
He now lives in the USA, works in Washington in some big white place and his initials are G.W.B.
It's either that or he serves a live sentence in the Scheveningen jail-house.
It's just what you wanne believe.

The Netherlands are safe from any attack by the US to "free" Saddam Hussein. For one, he is not an American citizen and so is not covered under the law you mentioned. Secondly to do so would pretty much destroy NATO and Saddam is not worth that much damage.

The appropriate venue for his eventual trial would be in Iraq. He should be tried by the people he has oppressed, murdered and stolen from. If Iraq is unable to bring him to trial for some reason, then the Hague would be an appropriate venue.

As far as the intended use of the world court, I fully agree with you. Unfortunately, the way the treaty was set up it could easily be misused by political opponents of the US to harrass and disrupt US military operations in exactly the way I described. If not the North Koreans, certainly leftist oriented groups hostile to US policy in general would happily take the opportunity to screw with the US. They have already tried on a couple of occasions during the NATO intervention of Bosnia without success I believe. The court would have to entertain charges regardless of who brought them and the US would have to abide by the subpeona if it were to sign the treaty.

Ailwon, that was one of the very best posts I have ever read from a "proud american" on these forums.
You have brought your point across, didn't insult anyone, you agreed with "us" on certain things and yet you described why you are a proud american. I may sound silly but posts like yours help me very much to understand your culture, to see that not everyone in your country is an arrogant asshole (I never thought that, but you have proven it once again) and that. for gods sake, we all can agree and discuss with eachother on a normal level.

I'm feeling stupid for having to thank a person that makes a good post, but its really needed around here.
10 plus points for Ailwon!

Part of the reason you see a "you are with us or you are against us" attitude from us Americans is to a certain degree it's true. "Allies" are not being friends to us when they help prop up dictatorships bent on conquering their region at the expense of non hostile governments (see Saddam).

H.y.p.o.c.r.i.t.e.