Bylimet --

You said some very interesting things in your post in general and it made me wonder if you could expand a bit here.



In the early 70's when I picked the LOTR and Hobbit up again for something to read while convalescing, I was blown away. It was strange, seeing that I now had the information in the back of my mind of how Tolkien was commenting on the industrialization of Europe and the Nazi movement that was spreading, and I myself had just come out of a war, I still was able to see it more for the engrossing fantasy it was at this time than when I was when in school and still a wide eyed innocent, for the most part. This reading, and then the Sylmarillion (sp) and The Book of Lost Tales, became standard items in my bookshelves from then on; Tolkein and Robert Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" have never been out of reach these past thirty-odd years since reading them the first time from cover to cover.


I'm curious what specifically about the LoTR series did you correlate with the Nazi movement and European Industrialism? That intrigues me enough to pick up the books and read them again. I'ts obvious that writers as well as artists must have some form of inspiration for their work but I never thought about these two things as influencing Tolkien. Quite honestly until reading what you typed I don't think I gave it a second thought but now I find myself wondering.

I have yet to read The Silmarillion but want to. I hear it's much more dry but beautiful at the same time, I haven't psyched myself up for it just yet. I also think I'm going to look up this Thomas Covenant series this weekend. I need a break from Dan Brown.

Tolkien also was influenced by his faith. Heavily so and it's pretty apparent throughout the series.

Thomas Covenant has 3 series out, 3 books in each with the 3rd series just now starting. All very angst driven, inner turmoil kinda thing. Good reading , but it does tend to drag you down and make you wonder at the effort required to do the right thing. Donaldson is very adept at dragging his hero down inorder to give him the strength to make the right decisions...

Fandros

Tolkien wrote The Hobbit (1937) and The Lord of the Rings (1954-1955) after serving in WW1. I didn't see the relationship to the real world aot of others have. There are many varying degrees of disection of the Tolkien series.


Lord of the Rings is a story where people of four different races (Elves, Dwarves, Men and Hobbits) put their differences behind them and join forces to fight evil. Tolkein fought in the trenches in the first world war and viewed the rise of Nazism with distain. It is easy to compare the evil wizard Saruman with Adolf Hitler, both are in possession of a powerfully convincing voice. LoTR is an allegory of the dangers of industrialisation and the fight against evil (such as Nazism), not other races. The anti-industrialism of the book has endeared it to back-to-the-Earth Nazis who have a misty-eyed nostalgic view of Britain's peasant-farming past.



As for the Non-believer series be warned it is a very hard read. Keep a dictionary close if you have as limited vocabulary as I do. /wink I found myself hating the antagonist... By the end I was ready for it to be over... I'm not going to give any of it away if you've not read it. If you can actually get into Lord Foul's Bane the first book in the series you can stomache the rest. It's a dive into fantasy like you've never experienced.

Years ago (15? 20?), Dragon Magazine had an article -- possibly by Gary Gygax -- called "Gandalf was a 3rd Level Wizard." This was the first time I met with the idea that Tolkien's books were an allegory for English resistance to Nazi Germany. Those lil hobbits, ya see, are the English, and maybe Gondor is America, and...well, it's been awhile. I'm not very familiar with the argument and have no opinion either way, but it's been out there awhile.

The Silmarillion is a bear to read but has its rewarding moments. There's a lot out there that I'd read first.

Sorry for the slight offtopic but Stranger in a Strange Land is probably my favorite book of all time, great choice for a bookshelf.

Sorry for the slight offtopic but Stranger in a Strange Land is probably my favorite book of all time, great choice for a bookshelf.

Is that written by the same author as Thomas Covenant....part of the series? In other words...which book do I pick up first? I hate starting one book to find out that it's like #3 or #4 in a 9 book saga.

Well most of Heinlein's work is independant of one another really. If you just want a taste for his writing without getting into a long book, because Stranger is very long, look for the book Friday or one of his short story collections.

A lot of the books are thought of as connected but they're not pure sequels.

perfunctory wikipedia link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Heinlein

Stranger in a Strange Land is by Robert Heinlein, and it is indeed a fantastic book.

Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever
1) Lord Foul's Bane
2) The Illearth War
3) The Power that Preserves

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant
4) The Wounded Land
5) The One Tree
6) White Gold Wielder

The new book is called "The Runes of the Earth"

Is that written by the same author as Thomas Covenant....part of the series? In other words...which book do I pick up first? I hate starting one book to find out that it's like #3 or #4 in a 9 book saga.

Pick up Lord Foul's Bane it is the first book in the Un-Believer series. Steven Donaldson added to the series later on. The second set is also 3 books, then there is the start of the last series probably 3 books.

You can probably find Lord Foul's Bane pretty cheaply at a used book store. Might even be able to snag the entire 3 book set.


As someone suggested I think I may look for the 2nd set in the series. I've been thinking of reading the first ones again. But, I've been thinking about reading them again for 2 years...

Stranger in a Strange Land is by Robert Heinlein, and it is indeed a fantastic book.

Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever
1) Lord Foul's Bane
2) The Illearth War
3) The Power that Preserves

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant
4) The Wounded Land
5) The One Tree
6) White Gold Wielder

The new book is called "The Runes of the Earth"

Thanks to all 3 of you, I will be getting #1 some time this weekend. Printing this out now :)

As an avid Tolkien fan, I can tell you that Nazism or either of the Second World Wars are not even remotely connected to Tolkien's writings. He's stated so in many letters to his son and friends, and has written many times that he tried very hard to avoid metaphors and symbolism, but where it occured, it was more about the deteriorating role of nature in society and the increase of industry.

And though a religious man, he again states many times that he never used his faith in his writings.

When I get some time I'll post some links to his letters.

The Silmarillion is well worth the read, though written in the Olde English and exhaustive at times, it is almost like a bible of Middle Earth, very beautiful and very epic. I enjoyed it more than the Trilogy (rather depressing though, as from the get-go it's almost like a Decline and Fall).

Well most of Heinlein's work is independant of one another really. If you just want a taste for his writing without getting into a long book, because Stranger is very long, look for the book Friday or one of his short story collections.

Edited to protect the innocents....

A lot of the books are thought of as connected but they're not pure sequels.

perfunctory wikipedia link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Heinlein

Now I know where I know this name from....Sonyy is a graphic artist who recently did some cover work and post cards for Bob Buettner's Orphan's Destiny. The two of them got into an email exchange that eventually I got drug into....here's the first part of that mail exchange....


Dear <Sonyy ;) >:

What you have done with the back of the card is brilliant. You guys are the pros, so I assume splitting the card that way is "legal" with the post office. You have exceeded my expectations. Thanks!

Specifics regarding the proof:

1. Front: Yes, please, omit the comma between "October" and "2004."

2. Back: Please change the words after "Dune" to read ": The Battle of Corrin" Since you read the genre, you may be interested to know that I found my error in Kevin's book title just tonight. I was at a booksigning with Kevin. He begins a national signing tour for Dune: The Battle of Corrin next week.

As to my book, thanks for the interest. Kevin was kind enough to tell tonight's audience, "People say Orphanage is the new Starship Troopers. Actually, I think it's better than Starship Troopers." <dumb sales lady> said she would like to buy a copy through me so it can be inscribed. I'd be pleased to do the same for you and anyone else there who is interested and ship all the copies together. I see <company's name> motto includes to "pay it forward." Did you know that phrase was coined by the author of Starship Troopers, Robert A. Heinlein?

So, with the two changes mentioned, please go ahead with the order. No additional proof needed. Great job!

- Bob Buettner

Gah!

I hated the first Thomas Covenant book I *started* to read. Let's just say I have a low tolerance for self-pitying "protagonists", especially those who stoop to the actions he did within the first few chapters. Maybe they improve as you go (redemption and all that), but I just couldn't maintain my interest.

Stranger in a Strange Land rocks (or "groks" as the case may be).

The Silmarillion is a strange book. It starts out very "mythical" but eventually gets down and dirty with the first age wars against Morgoth. It's written not so much as a novel, but more like a meld of a book of mythology and a fictional history book. Once I got past all the creation myth, I really enjoyed it as a backdrop to LotR.

Hey I see that poke at my miscue.. At least I got the "tagonist" part right.


The Silmarillion is a strange book. It starts out very "mythical" but eventually gets down and dirty with the first age wars against Morgoth. It's written not so much as a novel, but more like a meld of a book of mythology and a fictional history book. Once I got past all the creation myth, I really enjoyed it as a backdrop to LotR.

I have to agree pretty much word for word in this statement.

Nah I wasn't poking at you, the quotation marks are because I couldn't bring myself to see the main character as the hero, or protagonist of the book. Heroes don't rape teenage girls, at least not in books that capture my interest. I've never been a big fan of angst, and it looked like the whole series was being set up to wallow in it at the time. Maybe I'll force myself to read it through some time, but it *will* be a chore for me.

Wow, how did I miss this thread? I had friends who couldn't get enough of the Thomas Covenant series when I was in high school, but I'll agree with Gulor that it was a bit too egocentric for my tastes, as is a lot of science fiction/fantasy (I read George R.R. Martin's 'The Lords of the Diamond' some years ago and felt thoroughly ill afterwards ;) ). In order to really hold me spellbound, a fantasy story has to 1) compel belief in the world in which it is set and 2) be *about* something other than the arbitrary '(flawed)hero, maiden and monsters'; I like works where the focus is on psychology, sociology, or perhaps I should use the word psychohistory ;); in other words, where one is exposed to, and drawn into thinking about, human (or sentient :) ) possibilities. To reference the thread in General, in my view, Tolkien was a master at the first part and fairly weak at the second.

I've enjoyed Heinlein's works for the most part although 'The Number of the Beast' is possibly one of the creepiest things I've ever read; Stranger in a Strange Land, Starship Troopers, and Friday were all very good and engrossing reads. In general, my tastes tend more towards science fiction than fantasy although some of the very best books I have read have been, hrm, 'hybrids' I suppose...

In reference to Halo's comment (and hey there, stranger! :) ), if one of Tolkien's main objectives was to depict evil in the form of the forces of industrialization against nature, the the recent films did a more impressive job of bringing this to life than the sense I got from the books; seeing the 'factory' where the orcs were, erm, manufactured was a truly chilling sight.

Alas, online gaming has eaten up a lot of the time I used to spend reading recently (work eats up much of the rest) so I haven't read anything new (to me) lately that has just knocked my socks off. I did find a paperback of Larry Niven's 'N Space' (compilation of short stories and excerpts from some of his novels, with commentary on some of the ideas addressed in them by the author) at a campus used book sale, and have been enjoying that in spare moments, but would really enjoy if someone could recommend something that knocked *their* socks off...

Great thread, and thanks for starting it!

Regards,
Nydia

N'Space contained some excellent stories.
but would really enjoy if someone could recommend something that knocked *their* socks off...
<insert my usual Neil Stephenson plug here>
Snow Crash
Diamond Age (or, A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer)
Cryptonomicon

I've not been reading much over the last few years, due in part to gaming. The above listed books all enthralled me in the same way that Gibson's Neuromancer did years ago. If you haven't read them, they're my top recommendations (along with Good Omens from Pratchett and Gaiman).

Yes, Gulor, TC isn't the sort of guy you feel chummy with; he wasn't the first anti-hero, but he does make an impression. His story isn't about redemption for that initial, horrid (understandable, in context, but no less reprehensible) act, but more about coping with knowledge of that action. If you like your protagonists squeaky clean, these aren't the books for you at all.

Well, I am late getting to this thread, heh.

I think there have been plenty of replies regarding the parallels of LOTR and the industrialization of Europe, and the impending "tsunami" of the Nazi's.
I agree that the recent film "Two Towers" really slam-dunked the image via the felling of entire forests to fuel the factory of Saruman. I wonder if the folks in Brazil would grasp that analogy? The destruction of that rain forest is very close to what we saw in the movie, fueling the ambition of a few....but I digress.

And, while I know Tolkein himself nay-sayed the fact, there was seldom any dissent in the numerous lectures and analysis groups I have been party to that the sweeping tide of Sauron and his minions could only have been Tolkein's representation of the German advance.

The image of the Shire being turned into a slave camp pretty much locked it in for me (Saruman's plans).

And, while on a dark note, the Thomas Covenant series is indeed going to leave many more depressed than uplifted for the most part, due to the actions of the primary character. I think what made the series a fun read for me was the attempt to understand the workings of such a mind that could move between worlds as he did, whether that be the worlds of the diseased vs. the healthy or the world of the here and now vs. the there and then.

Now as for "Stranger In A Strange Land", it is indeed one of my all time favorites. I actually got an 'A' on a college paper comparing the lives of Michael Valentine Smith and Jesus Christ, discusssing the gathering of disciples and formation of a set of teachings, etc. The book introduces so many thought provoking ideas, and really wraps you up in the lives of the main characters. The idea of trained "witnesses" alone would be a boon if ever it could be put into practical use. But it is not a fast read, if you like to digest what you are taking in; for that, I would suggest Heinlein's "Glory Road". It is a fun, fast read that moves at a brisk pace without losing track of the story it is telling.

And I agree, "Number of the Beast" was really a weird book by Heinlein, hehe. Not sure what he may have ingested before embarking on that one.

Only thing to come close to Tolkien for me is Stephen Kings Dark Tower series... I admit I have to read any Thomas C. I think I should do that after I finish re-reading all my Douglas Adams books in honor fo the movie...=)

If you like your protagonists squeaky clean, these aren't the books for you at all.

Heh, I figured that out real quick. I don't need my protagonists to be squeaky clean by any means (one of my favorites being Kane from Karl Edward Wagner's stories), but dang, I at least hope to find *something* to like about them. TC was just so completely annoying and devoid of any redeeming qualities I could identify, I just couldn't take the prospect of hundreds of more pages of him.

Heh, I figured that out real quick. I don't need my protagonists to be squeaky clean by any means (one of my favorites being Kane from Karl Edward Wagner's stories), but dang, I at least hope to find *something* to like about them. TC was just so completely annoying and devoid of any redeeming qualities I could identify, I just couldn't take the prospect of hundreds of more pages of him.

But, but.......he is Ur-Lord:devil

TC was just so completely annoying and devoid of any redeeming qualities I could identify, I just couldn't take the prospect of hundreds of more pages of him.

He changes but man how subtle it is. He's not the raving hormone you saw in the begining though. I believe that was Steven D's "shock n awe" and it worked on you. He is a very very hard character to like. You sometimes wish he'd just fail and the books would be over. But the people depending on him to do the right thing are what kept me pushing myself through the series. It's been said here many times Steven Donaldson and TC is a very tedious and consuming read. Part of one of the things I enjoyed about it was my loathing of TC but the compasion I had for the rest of the characters.

I like works where the focus is on psychology, sociology, or perhaps I should use the word psychohistory

Nydia you should look into Samual R. Delaney's work's. Ive read Dahlgren several time's and still trying to figure out some of what he's alluding too.

Dear Thormir, Velvetsilence:

Thanks, and I'll check them out! I've seen Dhalgren before on the bookshelf but never picked it up. Delaney's 'Tales of Neveryon' I read years ago (and picked up again recently) and really enjoyed, it was supposedly inspired (very loosely) by an ancient cuniform text called the Kolhar Fragment that may be the first mundane 'story' (as opposed to some sort of official tally) committed to writing...

I've never heard of Neil Stephenson, but I'll look for his works as well - it's been a long while since I've discovered a new author (my last 'find' was Heather Lewis, who took her life in 2002, and wrote a few excellent (modern realist/surrealist, not sci-fi/fantasy) novels that can only be described as 'disturbing' before her death)...

Warm regards,
Nydia

Probably a lot lighter read, but i enjoyed the "Empire of the east" book by fred saberhagen and the resulting trilogy/sword books afterwards. Not perfect and not hardcore fantasy but not too bad. Still have to finish the simarillion once i dig it out of the boxes in the garage...hehe
Read the thomas covenant series, and it was dry but not the worst books in the world. The darksword trilogy has its moments and i loved the dune series...Not many books of that quality coming out much nowadays imho...

I saw George R.R. Martin Referenced here....

I found his wild cards series to be hard to read, but....

Song of Fire and Ice kicks so much ass, it's ruined most other fantasy for me. It's the series for those who are sick of "Boy who has a unique power which must be developed by meeting the mentor so he can save the world". "A Game of Thrones" is the first one. Read it. Read it. Read it, and be pissed that he's not done with the series. Just don't get attached to ANY of the characters. Hell, the first three characters you meet are dead by the first chapter. There's something completely refreshing about actually fearing for your favorite characters' life, and not really knowing WHO the protagonist really is. You can't judge this one by Martin's earlier works, it's night and day.

If you want a good complete series, though, Neil Stephenson just finished his Baroque Cycle, which begins with "Quicksilver". If you like Cryptonomicon, you have to pick this one up.

I picked up Stranger in a Strange Land yesterday so far it's..... interesting.

Martin absolutely has changed fantasy novels for me. He was amazing. There's a thread (http://p073.ezboard.com/fthetribunaldotorgfrm58.showMessage?topicID=39.top ic) over on Trib about fantasy novels and a few other styles on our RSI forum, if you're interested in hearing about other's opinions.

In the Tolkien vein, Dennis McKiernan basically ripped off Tolkien and did is pretty well with his own changes, but the book he wrote called Dragon Doom was pretty amazing, and had nothing to do with Tolkien. I suggest it highly.