The first presidential debate will be aired tonight (9.30.04) at 9 P.M. Eastern from Florida on a number of news networks.

I thought I would start this thread so we can bring all of our discussion regarding the three debates here. I am certain that they will be interesting (at least as interesting as they can be), especially the first one since it is primarily about national security.

Please, your thoughts... :rolleyes:

I think you're going to see Heruculean efforts in talking past your opponent's arguments and possibly a new world record for longest sentence that contains no information.

Heh the presidential debates I've seen were pretty boring. I thought the vice presidential debates were more interesting in 2000, to be honest. I guess the VP candidates don't have to worry about being so gray and ambiguous.

Malse wont be to far off. They will not be allowed to directly adrress eachother I think tonight. So it will be a question and then a 2 minute speech. Boring but I think i'll still watch.

Dont Call this debate.. its a PRESS conference... there is nothing about this "Fake Debate" that makes it a actual debate... There is no arguing back in forth. No audience questions. The camera's cant show the reaction from the opponent when they are talking. Freaking kerry's campaign needs the room at a cool 70 degrees because and I quote "Women dont like Sweaty Men"... SO dont call it a debate its pathetic.

Lets just give them a teleprompter that way they can take out the threat of saying stupid answers and call it a day.. shall we?

You seriously don't think a telepromter WONT be there? What do you think them glass thingies in front of them do? If you ever get to see one from, say, Bushes angle there is a TV set right under it and it reflects the teleprompter. Yes, they have already momorized there answeres tonight but look closely if you seem scanning the crowed they are also picking up bits off the screen.

I'm only watching it because im playing Bingo: http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-8/795603/debate04_1.JPG

(Everytime one of those topics is mentioned, you mark it off, its played like any other bingo, get game boards here: http://www.planetsocks.com/bingo.asp)

"I love to watch the presidential debates. It is like The Apprentice except you get to fire one of them!" - Jay Leno.:D

The camera's cant show the reaction from the opponent when they are talking.

Actually, they did.

If ya were already gonna vote one way or the other, then this debate really didn't change much.

It did show how much Bush hates facts, and likes to over-simplify things though. ^_^ Kerry fought back, which we hadn't really seen until now, was calm and confident, and made logical points based on facts. Bush repeated himself(I do like how kerry corrected the whole 'mixed message thing', yet bush ignored it and kept at it), and seemed... irritated?

Shall the flamefest begin?

Edited to add a whee bit rather then 2nd post.

"You cannot lead if you send mexed missages...."

Although he corrected himself, the irony is just painful. WTG Dubya

Kerry: Bla!
Bush: BlaBla!!
Kerry: Bla!!!
Bush: BlaBla!!!

I wanted live wrestling action :(

That would have indeed been more entertaining. 2 men enter, one man leave?

Thunderdome!!!

Kerry was clear, coherent, and (finally!) commanding - I was both relieved and glad that he acquitted himself well, and perhaps he breathed enough life into his campaign so that people will tune in for the debate on domestic issues, where he should shine. As far as Bush's performance, he seemed to fumble a lot more than Kerry and was forced to (or simply preferred to) resort to platitudes more frequently during the discussion - I got a giggle out of watching his facial expressions. Other than that I think that he did a decent job (although it's different for me to assess such due to my own bias).

In the immediate post-debate coverage on NBC, I did find it interesting that 1) the group of undecided voters, to a person, stated that Kerry had impressed them more in the debate than Bush, and 2) while John Edwards was interviewed on Kerry's performance, Cheney was nowhere to be seen, and that the Republicans continued their trend of not having anyone with any accountability in the administration run interference for them. I'm really interested in seeing the Cheney/Edwards debate - will Mr. Sunshine be able to turn his junkyard dog act on the Sith Lord, or will Cheney succeed in taking him apart?

In any case, it looks like things might finally get interesting...

Regards,
Nydia

although it's different for me to assess such due to my own bias

Bias? If I didn't know you were a teacher I'd think you were nuts.

Why's that?

Bush has never been a strong orator, but it seemed to me in alot of places he was more flaberghasted by Kerry's ignorance.

Felt it was kinda funny that Kerry mentioned several times about his desire to work together with other countries but disreguarded all our allies in the war on Iraq other then Britain.

Lol, ok.

I'd go more in depth but it's way late, I've got a two hour drive ahead of me and I'm busy spamming the WoW login waiting for the servers to come back up. 8(

disreguarded all our allies in the war on Iraq other then Britain.
Tony Blair is a Democrat :)

Just to throw these out. Poll results from a few websites.

cnn.com
Who do you think won the debate?
George W. Bush 12%
John Kerry 87%
Neither, it was a draw 2%

msnbc.com
Who won the debate?
Pres. Bush 31%
Sen. Kerry 69%

cbsnews.com
Who won the presidential debate?
John Kerry: 91.23%
President Bush: 7.95%
Neither man. It was a draw: 0.82%

foxnews.com
....oh wait, they didn't put a poll up? Gee, why on earth would that be?
hmmmm....

Because the others are all liberal news rags full of lies, deceit and generally incorrect information, duh.

Or perhaps it's because Bush was out debated. Maybe Foxnews just mexed up their missage and forgot to post their poll results, though.

By the way, did anyone catch McCain's reply, on CBS? It was very interesting, and he really seemed to struggle to tow the party line in his response,....

You could tell from the first 30minutes of the "debate" that bush had lost. I noticed that bush was unsure about most of his answers, not to clear of them. Kerry had his speaches very well thought out in my opinion. Guess it goes to show how his Yale debate team efforts helps him in public speaking.

Just to throw this out there as well.

Because the poll only questioned people who watched the debate, its results do not statistically represent the views of all Americans. (Full story)
CNN (http://www.cnn.com)

Y'know, that seems to be the common theme among Kerry supporters following this debate. And I'll agree. Kerry was very well spoken. Too bad with all those speaking skills he had nothing to say. While Bush kept pointing out all the good things he and his administration has done, the only thing Kerry could ever say was, "No, you screwed up, I could have done it better."

And don't get me started on the media. You might as well just poll the teachers union on who they think won the debate. You'll get the same results.

Kerry still lacks any kind of message or idea what he's going to do if he's elected. He did far worse than even I imagined he could do. He was arrogant as expected but his absolute ignorance of the facts is frightening to me. Last night convinced me that Kerry would put the U.S. in a far far far more dangerous situation than Clinton left us in 2001.

I dunno, I heard a message. He wants to stop alienating the allies and sit down and work with them. He specifically said every time Bush brought up the "you can't send mixed signals" (which was every sentence I believe, but honestly someone with his IQ can't be expected to memorize more than 3 responses anyway so we can't get down on him for that) that he was for the war but Bush screwed the pooch and fucked it up hardcore, so to speak. He was very clear that he felt we shouldn't have confused Afghanestan (aka the people who attacked us) to Iraq (aka the people Bush made lies about to make us go to war with them INSTEAD of dealing with Afghanestan correctly).

On an aside, being in DC on nights like last night -- its party night. Last night we had 29 people in attendance. 4 were directly imployeed by the Republican Party, 7 work for various intelligence agencies here in Washington, another 5 were employeed for other branches of the government. The rest of us work for either the various media outlets, or a few other misc jobs (ones an editor, ones an CR rep, etc etc.). For the first time in my little social sphere, I believe the Kerry supporters outnumbered the Bush supporters 15/14* -- though it may have been the other way around my lil note paper here is a bit unclear.

At the end of the night, we decided 22/7 that Kerry won the debate. Two people who originally were going to vote for Bush decided they would vote for Kerry and zero people who were gonna vote for Kerry decided they would vote for Bush. Its definately too small to really say this has any actual weight -- but seems to match the nationwide stats pretty well.



*Technically though there was 1 libertarian and 1 person who currently works at Ralph Nader's campaign office but still a 50/50 split.

Kerry provided a reasonable degree of message given the time he was allotted. Bush was repetitive and seemed irritated to even be there, but then, he's a President unaccustomed to respond to criticisms of his leadership in his presence. Kerry certainly won last night's rapid-fire Q&A, but it was hardly a crushing defeat for Bush.

The ground has been laid; now come the post-debate spin sessions where each candidates' surrogates wax effusive about their patron's performance. Some of it's been difficult to watch. I like Guliani, for instance, but clearly he was trying to twist Kerry's words to match what Bush tells us Kerry says.

What a horrible sentence. But it's breaktime, so you're stuck with it.

Just to throw these out. Poll results from a few websites.

Internet polls aren't a good source of information honestly.

Kelraz wrote:

but honestly someone with his IQ can't be expected to memorize more than 3 responses anyway so we can't get down on him for that)
Ya a guy that graduated from Yale. Then recieved a MBA from Harvard. Was the Governor of the nations largest state. Oh ya and is the leader of the free world. Being judged by some ass-clown on a eq message board.

ones an editor
imployeed
Afghanestan

I'm guessing you are not the editor.

Your a fucking Moron. The fact that you are even questioning his IQ makes me want to go slap your parents.

Rigin

Internet polls aren't a good source of information honestly.
126% of people know that.

Internet polls are certainly sketchy, but the wide margins in each are telling. I expect the "Kerry wins" verdict to be confirmed by more reliable polls. This (http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=271) page sorts through falsehoods, errors, and misstatements made by both candidates.

Lol Rigin I was thinking the same thing.

So Kelraz, what IS Bush's IQ then? And since when does IQ have anything to do with debate or oratory skills? I'm curious!

Yeah... I'd use the spell check function before I bashed someone else's IQ.

I'm not partial to either of them (Bush & Kerry), I'm still undecided on who to vote for and am having a hard time deciding. The only thing I heard between mobs were two people saying the other said/did something and then saying no I didn't. "you flip-flop"..... "you made mistakes" .....zzzzzzzzzzzzz....made me think of PeeWee Herman saying "I know you are but what am I?"

Personally I want to see them really argue none of this moderated crap.
I dunno someone tell me how you can determine a winner from that boring banter.

Was the Governor of the nations largest state.

Wrong!

Does anyone really care about Alaska?

Considering he decides to pick apart Kelraz's spelling and grammar, then goes and says "Your a fucking Moron," I just had to say something. =P

Your a fucking Moron.

Was the Governor of the nations largest state.

Don't criticize someone else's intelligence when you can't use proper grammar and don't know that Texas isn't the largest state in the union. Of course the same can be said for Kelraz criticizing Bush's intelligence.

Does anyone really care about Alaska?

I care!















about drilling it for oil!

... asinine... asinine, oh how I miss your asininity, asinine.

It gives me a warm and tingly feeling to see my thread a hot topic =)

Sheep.

Again, no one's been able to dispute plenty of the arguments Kerry put forward. They instead focus on my obviously poor spelling. Thats why God himself invented spellcheck. However, I never was comparing Bush to myself. I'd never concider myself a candidate for the president of the United States. I WAS comparing him to Kerry however, who seemed to clearly have him outmatched intellectually and faired pretty well on the issues.

And yes, I am the editor. I edit FILM and VIDEO for our government and various other DC corporations :) MTV doesn't seem to care if I can't spell, just so long as their music videos have the right slate at the front.

I don't get where you think this is about intelligence. Public speaking doesn't relate directly to intelligence, and neither does responding with pre-written responses.

Neither of them put forward much in the way of arguments in the classic sense of the word, they driveled out vague denouncements of each other's performance and credibility, which is pretty comic since neither has any except with those "sheep" too blind to see this circus for what it is.

What's Kerry's exact plan for handling Iraq? Good question, nobody knows. Then again Bush's is already in place and nobody, including him, seems to know what it is either. How are we going to disarm Korea and Iran without having to go to war? Moreoever, why exactly is it wrong for a country to pursue their own nuk-u-lar program? Why should only Western nations (oh, and the old Evil Empires of China and Russia. And Israel. And France) be allowed to have nuclear power and weapons? Who knows, certainly not either of them. We really should have had Karl Rove and whatever Democrat is actually pulling the strings on stage, so we could have at least been lied to directly instead of by proxy.

And people focus on your poor spelling for the same reason they make fun of Bush. Your inability to effectively communicate defeats any point you attempted to make and since you obviously can't make a well structured, coherent post, who should bother replying to you with one?

Well Malse, I do believe people were able to effectively communicate long before spelling and language was even invented. Spelling mistakes happen, and anyone who can't take a moment to forgive misspelling ... lets say the word "Moreover" (the version spelled with 2 Es, not 3). Its not difficult to figure out I meant employed instead of imployeed -- if not I'm not really the one with the issues.

Sure, I could have thrown my post into spell check and fixed it all -- but I posted at work and frankly didn't want to take the time, as obviously neither did you.

Aren't you lucky that I'm not gonna be as big of a prick as some, and instead of simply nitpicking your spelling or ... heaven forbid ... being unable to effectively understand your communication but going SO FAR out of my way to understand that the you simply had a spelling mistake and forgive you for it.

I would venture to say the problem isn't that you misspelled words, but that you misspelled so many when criticizing the intelligence of another person.

The way out government works though, Taleren, is that I can misspell every word in the dictionary as well as being the dumbest person on the planet -- yet still believe that George Bush isn't intellectually equipped to lead our country.

I'll admit, Kerry isn't my first choice. I voted for Wesley Clark in the primaries, and even though I've long been a liberal I refused to vote for Al Gore in the past election because I didn't feel he personally was the right man for the job, and I've long been McCain -- were he running this election I'd have voted for him over Kerry in an instant. However, given that I've only got 4 options next month I'll most likely be backing Kerry.

Bush refuses to join the international court. I guess so, considering the UN declared his invasion of Iraq to be illegal, he would probably be tried for war crimes. He wants to be above the law. How can we (USA) have any credibility with the world if we don't join? Do as I say, not as I do? Bush refused to acknowledge Kerry's points about north Korea aquiring a nuke "on his watch". He flat out ignored it. Bush says that Iraq is central to the war on terror. His own post invasion report said there was no connection between Iraq and Alqaida. Alqaida was not in Iraq before Bush invaded. Now that they are there after the invasion, Bush now says its the central point of the war on terror. He is totally responsible for the mess and refuses to admit any wrong choices, actions, plans, consequences......

Phelonius

Actually the correction of words was'nt really the issue. Was a just a half-ass attempt at taking a shot at you. :)

My problem is with people saying that the President is a idiot that can't remember more then 3 phrases. He has a more credible backround then most people you know. Degrees from Harvard and Yale are pretty impressive. I know he had influential parents that got him in. I am sure the two universities have seen a couple high powered brats roll through...they may lower the standards a little for entry but I am guessing you still have to pass a class or two for the degree. Not to mention him being an extremely successful businessman and the Governor of ONE OF the largest states in the U.S.( Damn you Alaska)

As far as the debate they both did exactly what they have done for the last 3 months. Bush squinted alot and Kerry had that dumbass grin on his face.

Rigin

I am finally home from work to add my .02 in.

Kerry did a nice job speaking with out saying anything. All I heard all night was I have a plan I have a plan I have a plan. Excpet he never told anyone what that plan is. I also heard him say he would not put homeland security in the hands of other nations and then later say he was put any pre-emtive strike to the test of the world. EXCUSEFUCKINGME? Did he just say he would ask another country if it was ok to protect me? Fuck him! Made me sick to hear that. Solidified my vote in Nov right down the party line.

Bush could have done alot better. Kerry served up softball after soft ball. Bush should have been all over some of the things. I blame the debate rules. I remember bush had a rough first debate with Gore as well but did fine int he next one. I'm sure this will occur again. I hope so I'd really hate living under Communist rule with Kerry.

The one clear thing resulting from the debates is that they have provided more fuel for those of either side to bash each other with, and create further division in the country. The level of animosity being shown on these forums toward those who think differently is a very good picture of the country in general, as evidenced in the nightly talk shows, talk-radio, televison advertising, etc.

Here in Minnesota we have Patty Wetterling running against the incumbent republican congressman. For any unfamiliar with the name, she is the mother of Jacob Wetterling, the kidnapped youth who has never been found after twelve or so years. Suddenly, with less than two months until election day, a story has emerged in northern Minnesota of a young man working at a factory who bears a striking resemblance to the age enhanced pictures of Jacob, and who has gaps in his personal history; so far he has declined to provide DNA for comparison, so there is no closure one way or the other at this time.

The political environment has grown so vicious that it has been suggested by some already that this is all being orchestrated by someone connected to the republicans to provide distraction during the last weeks leading up to the election. If it indeed proves to be the case, it will be one of the more disgusting acts of a political year many of us will see; and, if not politically motivated, the thought that folks are willing to try to tie it to one or the other party is itself an example of how hateful the process has become.

After reading this thread, I can't help but wonder how far down the road we will go before the next civil war within our own borders. People invested so heavily in acrimony must have an outlet at some point and with the proliferation of easily obtained weapons, and the violent nature of the country as a whole, I have no doubts of a spiralling escalation to mass bloodshed in our future.

Democrats and Republicans are not that far removed from Sunni and Shiite, or Hindu and Moslem, or Jew and Palestinian, or Protestant and Catholic. It is obvious on the boards here and elsewhere, us vs. them is the future of America.


VOTE McCAIN:D

Democrats and Republicans are not that far removed from Sunni and Shiite, or Hindu and Moslem, or Jew and Palestinian, or Protestant and Catholic. It is obvious on the boards here and elsewhere, us vs. them is the future of America.

I think the big difference is, that when we really sit down and think about it, both democrats and republicans believe that our respective 'gods' are really just big douche bags and we could do without 90% of them.

Anyways, Kelraz, you lose.

He wants to stop alienating the allies and sit down and work with them.

If that was Kerry's message, he -really- fucked up in delivering it. He blatently ignored 20+ of our allies in Iraq/Afghanistan, effectively telling everyone with an IQ greater then 14 that he either didn't know or didn't care about them. He would prefer to negotiate with North Korea, something the Clinton administration failed to do, in favor of continuing our alliance with several nations in the area trying to pressure them into disarming. So much for his, 'more patience' policy as well.

He wants to be the leader of the military, but last night he just told every soldier that everything they've accomplished or tried to accomplish in Iraq and Afghanistan was worthless. You don't tell Soldiers that. You tell the history books that. Soldiers are like women in that if they have shit on their face, you need to tell them their complexion looks nice this evening. They need to be flattered.

Not only that, but he blames Bush for attacking too soon in Iraq yet criticizes him for not moving troops into Sudan?

This is a guy who apparently wants to stop weapons researching before the 'war' is over. I'll agree to total nuclear disarmamant the minute the minute we disable every unstable country from having it, wipe out the ability for smaller factions to manufacture nuclear devices and our allies in the world agree to do the same.

The 'best' argument coming out of the democratic camp is that Bush was uncomposed and seemed to be struggeling for arguments. Nice. You've just said he's a shitty orator. So? I want to see how he's composed when he's sitting down at a table with people who matter, people from other countries in the world, not having a 'debate' with an ass clown who continues to show his ignornace of what's really going on in the world.

I'd rather the world think of our leader as stubborn then someone who's going to change his mind every 3 hours.

Vhex is such an expert on women, take everything he says on that subject as the 100% Gospel truth.

For the record, I am a republican. I don't promote Kerry in my posts, I just bash Bush because he has stepped on his own dick and screwed up the world royally. He found the ant hill, but instead of spraying them all dead, he thought it would be cool to step on it in a display of power. Well now all the ants are mad, and they all scrambled and dispersed into a wider area. They are multiplying and there is no more chance of getting them all in one fell spray. The world hates the US, the UN delclares our actions to be illegal, countries are flipping us off (n. Korea/Iran) and even our best allies (UK) have etreme anti us policy sentiment. Thanks Bush, I really appreciate you pissing everyone off because you think we should be above the law and rule the world. I will vote for Kerry only because I have to.


Phelonius

The sad thing is, we are in a lose/lose situation, Bush is not a great president, I know that, but Kerry will do much worse :(

Did you actually watch the debate?

If that was Kerry's message, he -really- fucked up in delivering it. He blatently ignored 20+ of our allies in Iraq/Afghanistan, effectively telling everyone with an IQ greater then 14 that he either didn't know or didn't care about them.


He did recognise the "allies" in Iraq, noting that the vast majority of those 20 didn't send any troops -- and if they did less than 100. He recognised that Britain sent some, but not nearly as many as us.


He wants to be the leader of the military, but last night he just told every soldier that everything they've accomplished or tried to accomplish in Iraq and Afghanistan was worthless. You don't tell Soldiers that.

He also said not to confuse the soldier with the war. He said the soldiers are doing a damn fine job but it was the administration that is doing FAR worse than sending them in unprepared. Unappropriately armed and geared for combat - check, disregard the fact that we have no exit strategy (aka the exact reason Bush Sr. decided to end the war) - check. I can't talk on behalf of the army, so can't say exactly how they feel ... but I'd prefer that if I was going to be sent somewhere I could most likely die there was a measure of planning involved and that the government, not my parents, were the ones spending money to give me the appropriate defensive armor.


Not only that, but he blames Bush for attacking too soon in Iraq yet criticizes him for not moving troops into Sudan?

He also said that at this present time attacking the Sudan was a bad move -- because the president spread our troops too thin as it is. 90% of the active duty of this country is currently on route, returning from, or serving overseas. There isn't anyone else to send.

I'd rather the world think of our leader as stubborn then someone who's going to change his mind every 3 hours.

I'd rather have a leader who recognises things are going bad and changes his mind to make them right.

You can't say that Iraq is a haven for terrorists, and then say that Iraq is a grand diversion from the War on Terror

It's amazing how people continue to add 1 plus 1 and get 3. Iraq was NOT a haven for terrorist BEFORE Bush invaded. It WAS the wrong war then. It was a grand diversion from the war on terror in AFGHANISTAN, not Iraq. AFTER Bush invaded Iraq, terrorists from all over the middle east have poured into Iraq to make it the haven that it is today? Understand? Comprende? It's not rocket science dude, pull your head out of your ass and stop spewing propaganda.

Phelonius

I want to see cheney debate with edwards :(

Well, Kerry did support the war when it was first brought up, so if you really think it's a really bad, wrong war, Kerry is not innocent of it.

Fact is kerry does not really stand for anything, except "I'm not bush!". I could never vote for someone who I did not know what he stood for/believed in. Hell if somehow you know what he stands for right now, whats to change him from flopping 6 more times before the election?

It's amazing how people continue to add 1 plus 1 and get 3. Iraq was NOT a haven for terrorist BEFORE Bush invaded. It WAS the wrong war then. It was a grand diversion from the war on terror in AFGHANISTAN, not Iraq. AFTER Bush invaded Iraq, terrorists from all over the middle east have poured into Iraq to make it the haven that it is today? Understand? Comprende? It's not rocket science dude, pull your head out of your ass and stop spewing propaganda.



I guess I just don't get it. I guess I belive in taking the war TO the terrorists.. Stupid me I guess. I guess you don't think Saddam supported terrorism. Which means, to me, that you don't belive terrorists are a threat. You must be against the war on terror. You must be against Bush. I agree with "You are with us, or against us." You must be against us. That means you must be a terrorist.

Iraq was NOT a haven for terrorist BEFORE Bush invaded
Wow you must work in the FBI or some sort to come up with that late breaking news. I mean seriously who needs any form of intelligence when we have you..here on our very own message board. I feel safe now.

What I have seen out of Kerry is well crafted phrases that seem profound at times but allow a broad range of flexiblity to do to take no blame and get all the credit. being for Bi lateral talks and being a 6 member talk with korea? The war was wrong I will win it. FIipflopping has been setup.

Bush needs to work the camera if that all the ammo the democrates can muster with GW then they must thing only like watching the pictures. Bush did look flustered and some of his answers made him sound all he needed was a tape recorder and uninspired and formulaic.

Did anyone catch the article on Fox's website the morning following the debate? The updated article (complete with apology) can be found here (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,134166,00.html). The omitted portion is as follows:
Rallying supporters in Tampa Friday, Kerry played up his performance in Thursday night's debate, in which many observers agreed the Massachusetts senator outperformed the president. "Didn't my nails and cuticles look great? What a good debate!" Kerry said Friday.

With the foreign-policy debate in the history books, Kerry hopes to keep the pressure on and the sense of traction going.

Aides say he will step up attacks on the president in the next few days, and pivot somewhat to the domestic agenda, with a focus on women and abortion rights.

"It's about the Supreme Court. Women should like me! I do manicures," Kerry said.

Kerry still trails in actual horse-race polls, but aides say his performance was strong enough to rally his base and further appeal to voters ready for a change.

"I'm metrosexual — he's a cowboy," the Democratic candidate said of himself and his opponent.

A "metrosexual" is defined as an urbane male with a strong aesthetic sense who spends a great deal of time and money on his appearance and lifestyle. This was written by Carl Cameron, who is providing Fox's "fair and balanced" coverage of the Kerry campaign. This would be more of a bombshell if we didn't already know of Fox's Republican slant, but it's interesting that such a thing would be written (much less posted!) by the guy covering Kerry.

For no particular reason, I hope CBS comments on this.

The world hates the US, the UN delclares our actions to be illegal

Phelonius
Who cares what the UN declares? Since when does the US need to go to a puppet organisation that cannot even back up its own resolutions to do what our elected President thinks is right to defend our country? Doesn't matter whether you think it was right or not it is still the Presidents right GRANTED him by a vote of congress. As far as the rest of the world hating the US what is new in that? The Arabs hate us because of our support for Israel. Allways have allways will nothing new there. The French? When have they ever really been an ally of ours? THe Germans? Russians? Chinese? THey all had something to lose in Iraq.

Who cares what the UN declares? Since when does the US need to go to a puppet organisation that cannot even back up its own resolutions to do what our elected President thinks is right to defend our country? Doesn't matter whether you think it was right or not it is still the Presidents right GRANTED him by a vote of congress.

I don't think very highly of the UN in general, for some pretty obvious reasons, but...

Saying that the President has a 'right' to go to war as long as congress gives him the okay is a little selfish, I think. It's not like we're just affecting ourselves by doing this - there are other things to consider as well. If another government had a system in place that allowed them to do whatever they wanted to other countries, provided they followed their own internal system, would you feel they had the right to attack another country?

In the best interests of thier defense yes I do.

That argument is horribly flawed and subjective. Nearly all wars occur from self-interest.

Nuclear power is in the best interest of Kelraz-land. However we can't fund the program correctly (Kelraz-land) is poor and oops! Chernobyl happens, and nuclear waste is spread throughout not only my country but the neighboring ones as well.

Studying dangerous diseases and generating even more dangerous man-made versions is in the best interest of Kelraz-land. Oops our diseases got out and now everyone on our continent dies. Its a good thing we had our own system in place to allow us to do whatever we want.

Killing the jewish people in Kelraz-land is in our best interest. It helps us to focus on the fact that its not our economy that sucks, but we can blame it on someone else. Its a good thing we have our own system in place to allow us to do whatever we want.

I dunno about you, but it certainly sounds like these 3 ACTUAL examples don't just effect the country of origin but the world at large. Its a good thing that the UN does exist and a country making its own rules without thinking of the global community is just wrong. Lonzz sir, you are wrong.

Considering that the US was a major broker in forming the United Nations to begin with, and that we have always gone along with the UN when it was in our interests, and that we have used the UN and the Security Council to our advantage when it suited our needs, I do believe we should be a bit more mindful of the position the UN takes regarding our country's behavior.

The fact that we have been withholding previously AGREED TO financial payments to the UN has only served to antagonize many that would otherwise be more inclined to ally themselves with us, especially since our wonderful leaders in Washington are attemtping to use those payments to dictate policy and philosophy to the UN.

Being the biggest and most aggressive kid on the block may get you lots of other kid's milk money for awhile, but eventually the other kids band together against you. And it gets lonely too........

Lonzz, lead by example. We have an obligation to the rest of the world to be a good example. I don't belive in "do as I say, not as I do".If Bush (or you) think that we have no obligation to the world, then we need to close our borders, stop trading or talking with everyone. This country is not about being the biggest, dickhead, bully nation on the planet, acting with no regard to the opinions or concerns of other nations, no matter how small. You don't always need to accept everyone's opinions, but you better fucking listen and politely decline. Respect is not demanded, it is earned. This isnt prison, we don't tell other countries to shut the fuck up and like it. Thats not my idea of earning respect, and its no surprise that Bush has none in the world.

Phelonius

Ring Ring:

Mr. Putin: "Hello?"
Mr. Kerry: "Hello, Putin. This is Kerry. I have a bit of a problem."
Mr. Putin: "Yes?"
Mr. Kerry: "Well it seems North Korea haspointed 18 missles at Seattle and San Fransisco."
Mr. Putin: "Ok, And........what?"
Mr. Kerry: "Well I hate to ask but do you think we could maybe go ahead and take out those Silo's? I mean if it's not too much trouble and all."
Mr. Putin: "Well see I need to talk to Jac about this..please hold a sec."
Mr. Kerry: "Okie Dokie."
Mr. Putin: "Jacy, hey babe this is Vladimir. Get this shit. Kerry is ont he other line and he is worried 'cause, like, he thinks the big K might be aiming missles at a couple towns of his." " yea I agree what a pussy." "What should I tell him?" "Ok." "Seeya dude."
Mr. Putin: "I'm sorry Kerry but we don't think that would be a great idea." Your going to have to bring it before the UN so that we can let all nations discuss it. They we will vote on possible sanctions. Of course we must wait to see if these dsanctions do not work. If they don't then you may impose tougher ones." Sound good?"
Mr. Kerry: "Well I was really hoping..."
Mr. Putin: ENOUGH! WE HAVE SPOKEN!"
Mr. Kerry: "Gosh i'm sorry if I have made you mad and all. BUt I guess I can live with that." "Thanks dude."

BOOOM!

Thats is exactly what I heard Mr. Kerry say he would do. Put pre-emtive strikes to a world test....SHIIIIIIITTT!

Actually what I got from Kerry's statements on a "world test" was that if we are going to go into a country for some reason (WOMDs, terrorists, etc) we need to be able to show the world that we were right instead of just saying well he was a bad man.. . .

You read his post and yet you are trying to explain him, impressive!! :p

10-01-2004 08:18 AM this actually shows your misuse of facts

<8 anon rep trolls.