"WASHINGTON - Americans [and Canadians] will need passports to re-enter the United States from Canada, Mexico, Panama and Bermuda by 2008, part of a tightening of U.S. border controls in an era of terrorist threat, three administration officials said Tuesday."

Links:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7393716/

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,152510,00.html

Personally I think this is a good thing, even if it may be a minor inconvenience when implemented.

Nothing really wrong with it, but it's fairly pointless overall. It's the largest undefended border in the world, completely unpatroled. Passport checks aren't going to stop anybody in Canada that wants to come south, or vice versa. Just sort of dumb.

First step in the right direction. Perhaps we should deputize the boyscouts and the militias.

Fandros

We can't adequately patrol the Mexican border. Check your map, this one is just a wee bit longer and has even less urban density.

All we need are some collars and an invisible fence. Problem solved!

In all seriousness, though, I'm not sure how much this'll really do to stop people from crossing the border. I would imagine that a fair portion of people entering the US from Canada do so at Niagra Falls/Buffalo, and that patrolling that border wouldn't be terribly difficult, however... at best, they're just going to make it a bit harder to cross. A step in the right direction, sure, but it's going to take a lot more than legislation to cut down on the 'problem.'

I'm sure that controlling the entire border would be next to, if not totally, impossible, but they could probably do a decent job of controlling the flow of traffic through the more popular nexuses, depending on how much cash we're willing to throw at it. I guess we'll see.

Note to self: Re-watch Battle Royale.

What was/is the process now?
Just "Hail, Officer Brown" and you can cross the border? Or nothing at all like inter US states crossing?

I'm wondering from what standard this little step is coming. (as it's perhaps impossible to guess where it will lead)

Atm it amounts to lil more than showing some form of American ID. Drivers license used to suffice.

Mounty Lebreaux, good day eh...I'd like to go home.

Enjoy your day...

Fandros

'Note to self: Re-watch Battle Royale.'

- :D

Wasn't it just this week that some militia/volunteers were allowed to patrol the Arizona border? I think I saw it on the news; they were there to only "report" illegal alien positions, but it looked like every one of them had a sidearm, lol.

Yea Cados, that was the Minuteman Program or something like that. They are to patrol the border and report any activity to the actual Border Patrol. But I'll be shocked if we dont hear about a shooting incident soon. It's only supposed to be a month long project, you can read more about it...here (http://www.minutemanproject.com/)

Depends where you cross the border at. I used to go in Ontario through International Falls for frequent fishing trips. Its already a pain in the ass and lines to cross would take hours (often, then again other times I drove right through). They would systematically pull over vehicles and rip your car, truck, trailers apart and then send you on your way. Personally I thought it was intimidating enough but then again flashing a passport wont really hurry any of this up nor slow it down anymore.

That was years ago..now I just say fuck Canada. Ill stay in the states.

Wasn't it just this week that some militia/volunteers were allowed to patrol the Arizona border? I think I saw it on the news; they were there to only "report" illegal alien positions, but it looked like every one of them had a sidearm, lol.
I'm not sure that those guys (dubbing themselves the Minutemen) were specifically "allowed" to run their patrols. They just are. The Border Patrol doesn't like them, since they often trip alarm sensors resulting in false pursuit.

I'm not quite sure how I feel about it all. This just seems like a little extra wasted manpower on something that won't actually do a bit of good. If I wanted to go to Canada/Mexico or vice versa theres miles and miles of open borders, and unless you Berlin Wall the borders nothing will change.

Though one also doesn't want to encourage illegal immigrants or terrorists from sneaking accross our borders, its much more practical to give them their student visa and let them live among us!

An aside, I've always been quite intrigued by Interpol in Europe. Every hotel or hostel scans your passport and at any given moment every tourist is accounted for. Its a wonder no system like that has been implemented in the states.

I believe that the main reason that the United States has not instituted some of the procedures used in other countries stems from our society and to a greater extent, our history.

We have many political action groups, special interest groups and many organizations such as the ACLU that "watch out" for our civil liberties. Yeah right.. but that's for a different NAG.

One of the things that has historically set this country apart from many others is our freedom of travel within our borders. A passport or other travel papers are not required to travel from state to state. You simply get into your automobile and fill it up with gas... if you can afford it (yet another topic for another NAG) and you head toward your destination.

If you decided to travel from New York to California, you would probably be stopped only two or maybe three times along your journey. These stops would generally be for "inspections". Normally, these inspections consist of nothing more than a few questions about what fruits, vegetables or other food items you might be bringing with you. This is done to protect the agriculture in that state from harmful pests that might travel into the state on produce.

If we were to institute a system where people are required to stop at the state line and present papers, there would be an uproar, the likes of which has not been seen. Most Americans do not even have a passport, because a large portion of our population does not need or use them.

I do believe that some sort of national identification card IS in our future. At some point, it will be necessary to make attempts to secure our counrty more so than it is now. At that point, a national ID card is probably going to be the way it is handled.

A Berlin Wall approach would be too cost prohibitive in it's inception as well as the recurring costs of upkeep, maintenance and personnel costs to secure and patrol.

Do we need better security in this country? Sure, but at what cost? This country was founded upon freedom, something we have enjoyed and taken for granted too often I fear. However, in the interest of making the nation more secure, I believe that we will see some sort of mandate or initiative that will result in a national ID system. You get one, you can stay at our hotel.... you don't got one?... well.. please wait over there... the police will be here shortly.

No matter what happens... I'm sure that we are in for some changes in the future. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Seems you have a gross minsconception of what travel is like in other countries.

I could drive from Brighton to Glasgow and all I'd have to do is throw 5 bob in the toll box on my way in to Scotland.

Did Calais to Toulouse once without so much as a peek-a-boo from anyone else.

Get this shit. I was heading up to Canada with my family from Detroit. When we got to the border it was all find and dandy.. spent a couple hours in Canada then when we were trying to get home we had the hardest freaking time trying to convince people we were Amercian ONLY because we didnt have the birth certificates of my nephew who was only 1 years old at the time. Border Workers are Bitchy people who even laughed at my Draft card that I had for my only identification i had on me.. ya know the card u get when u sign up for the draft at 18. Anyways it was my first and now my only time I am spending any money and Canada.

No HaloChanter, I have never been to Europe and have no idea of their travel restrictions. I have been all over Central and South America and we encounter the aduana stops (checkpoints) at various places along the way.

I have been to Haiti as well, and it was a similar situation as well. I have not been to Haiti in a number of years so I don't know what their current situation is.

I was commenting on how things would change here if this type of restriction were put in place.

I have also crossed into Canada from Detroit and had some times when it was a 30 second conversation and times when they wanted everything but a DNA sample.... going both directions.

I have been told.. and seen on television.. and probably all misleading.. that travel in Europe is not too restrictive except in certain countries. I would like to hear more about travel situations in Europe. I would some day like to visit Italy, Greece, and the surrounding region.

Well I for one have no clue what Gandaar is talking about! :) I traveled from London to Paris to Brussels to Berlin to Rome to Paris (on bus) and a flight back to London and only had been stopped at a border crossing and had my passport checked out twice. I don't think the other countries that have "states" have border checks there either, I know Canada doesn't and I'm kinda stupid in world geography so not sure what other countries have different states or territories.

When I took the train from Prague to Krakow and back, we simply had to have our passport pictures displayed in our windows and provide it if they checked at the border crossings. Prague to Budapest they banged on the door and asked to see the passport, but that was it. However, *every* city I've ever visited in Europe I needed a passport to get a bed, regardless if this was in a hostel or hotel or even my apartment in Prague.

*oh ok, I understand now! that was a what-if :)*

As for travel in Europe ... Rome and Athens are both shitholes, spend as little time as possible there and as much time as possible in the outlying areas. However, there is no excuse for going to Europe and skipping a visit to Prague ... its the most beautiful and interesting city I've ever visited!

The thing is, in Europe you are travelling across borders for countries, not states :P

I understand that....

As I mentioned, most of my travel experience is in Mexico, Central and South America. In Mexico there are a number of "states" and many of them have checkpoints at their border. They are more prevalent as you get closer to the United States or Guatemala, but they are there just the same.

Some of the Central American countries do the same thing. As you travel from one province to another in that country, you are stopped and your papers checked.

I was mainly curious if there were such things in central and souther Europe.

I suspect the number of internal checkpoints increases as the security situation is more shaky or the government more worried about internal revolt. In Mexico for example there has been unrest in various parts of the country for a long time so you have checkpoints near those areas. The former Soviet Union and eastern block countries made extensive use of checkpoints as a way to keep tabs on their own people. I can guarantee there are still checkpoints in North Korea and I would expect to see them in China still. I've seen them in Honduras and would expect they are common throughout Central America.

My travel to Europe has been limited to the UK, but there were none there. I'm not sure what sort of security was in place in Northern Ireland though.

My understanding is they are very common in much of Africa, again as a result of internal tensions (and opportunities for graft).

'I'm not sure what sort of security was in place in Northern Ireland though.'

- Lot of British Soldiers with machine guns.

I think this is a lot more to do with tracking than trying to restrict access.

The people that we're really worried about are highly organized. They don't just try to swim across a random river and hope they don't get caught. They pick up a fake driver's license and go with the sure bet.

Since 9/11, the amount of inter-agency data sharing has increased by huge amounts when it comes to the borders. I actually saw an article about how it's not uncommon for people returning from international flights to get busted for trivial things like missing a court date for a speeding ticket. The reason being that everyone from Interpol to the local police station share info on the people coming back in and flag them for anything they've done anywhere.

Now, if you apply that to the highway borders, you have to figure it's more effective when you require a form of ID that's harder to forge. You can pick up a decent fake driver's license for $20 around any college. A fake passport is a bit harder to obtain, and it should significantly narrow the search for authorities. It makes more sense for them to target passport fraud than every sorority girl that gets a fake ID to drink at the bar.

While obviously not the best example, you couldn't, in the former Soviet republic, drive from one state to another without providing identification, and "permission" to travel.

From which "states" in the EEC can you drive without providing identification?

EEC = Europe <something something> ?

Last time I was in Europe (about 4 years ago), you didn't need to show your passport at any border crossings only when you first arrived by plane.

I'm clueless when it comes to most acronymns.

The EEC (European Economic Community) is the former name of the EU (European Union).

^^ Ok in that case

I was able to drive "freely" (across border crossings) from:

France to Monaco to Italy (and vice versa)
France to Switzerland (and vice versa)
Switzerland to Italy (and vice versa)

Amazingly even when I arrived from Belguim to France they didn't even look at my passport. However, during this trip I also spent some time in Morocco (Africa) and that was an altogether different story (long lines, lots and lots of questions, the luggage was lost, searches, I felt like I had entered a 3rd world country and had USA tattooed across my forehead). We were somewhat lucky b/c my sister-in-law's uncle was head of Casa Blanca airport security else it would have been an even more miserable experience than it already was.

This was dubbed the trip from hell by my family. 15 days and six countries, and the Belguim fire brigade was on strike! UGH! I digress though...still I only had to show my passport a handful of times. From the US to Morocco, from Morroco to Belguim, and from France to the US....I haven't done a trip like this since and this was right before 9/11 so I'm sure allot has changed.

'However, during this trip I also spent some time in Morocco (Africa)...

...I felt like I had entered a 3rd world country'

- Wonder why :P

Just as the Patriot Act had little to do with actually going after terrorists (there has been not a single prosecution of a terorist under it yet), the Passport Act does not necessaritly have anything to do with keeping terrorists out of the U.S.

The cost for an adult is $97 for a passport (over 16, I believe). Where does the money above salaries and expenses go? Exactly what is the breakdown of the $97 fee, and how it is allotted?

Could this be just another plausible approach to increasing revenue? Beats raising taxes, huh?:p

Fil, I think the biggest problem was that you looked and maybe even admidted to being an American in a foreign country!
I don't think I would have survived if I didn't have my Canadian flag patch on my backpack. :)

'However, during this trip I also spent some time in Morocco (Africa)...

...I felt like I had entered a 3rd world country'

- Wonder why :P


Well some would argue that a 3rd world country would be more like Nigeria or Somalia. Casa Blanca is actually a very modern city and very nice :D

And Kelraz, it's a funny thing about travelling abroad. People in other countries will know you are American regardless of patches. It's in the way you dress, walk, and act they can tell well before you even open your mouth and try to butcher their language. One of the most interesting things I have noticed is that Americans are allot taller than Europeans.......allot. So you kind of stick out even more so. Hell my mom towered over some of the men, it was funny :D

Fil, I think the biggest problem was that you looked and maybe even admidted to being an American in a foreign country!
I don't think I would have survived if I didn't have my Canadian flag patch on my backpack. A popular tactic for Americans in Europe now.

Hello all :)

I find it interesting that most of the attention being paid to this announcement is from people who are citing issues with the Canadian border, which receives a fraction of the traffic of our southern border, and has few towns which functionally straddle the border. One thing that isn't mentioned in all this talk about safety and 'terrorist threats' is how this change is going to result in heavy 'taxation' along the US/Mexico border among residents of the border towns; the local uproar from the business community about how this will hurt local and tourist business has already started here. Most towns along the US/Mexican border are actually single cities that happen to be separated by an international border; people cross the border by the tens and hundreds of thousands *every single day* to go to work or shop or visit family on the opposite side of the border from where they live. Here in Laredo/Nuevo Laredo we have five road bridges and two foot bridges to handle all that traffic, for a city that is 200k people (US side)/600k (Mexico side). I realize that most Americans who don't live down here would *like* to think of the border between the U.S. and Mexico as this rigid, clearly defined thing, but it just ain't so; all of our local banks and businesses operate on, and serve, both sides and most people view the border much like they do the train tracks we have to cross every day, just a bump in the road.

Most US side folks don't have a passport (Philip and I don't), nor do most Mexican side folks; you just throw 50 cents in the turnstile, and walk across. When you cross back, same thing, only they ask you if you have anything to declare and if you're a U.S. citizen; occasionally they'll ask for your I.D. (Mexican citizens were required to show an I.D, now they must show an actual visa). As much as folks (in Washington and down here) are concerned about border security, the reality of the situation is that the daily lives and economies of border-straddling towns are so intimately intertwined that there is strong resistance to anything that impedes the flow of traffic, and dollars, across those bridges (there was a huge local uproar over, and resistance to, the U.S. VISIT plan implemented earlier this year which tightened I.D. requirements for Mexican nationals coming across - VISIT requires fingerprint/digital photograph checked against the visa and I lost several N.L. students when this was implemented).

Most permanent residents of border towns are also poor (Webb County in the mid-90s was listed as one of the five poorest counties in the U.S.), so requiring passports for crossing represents a rather expensive, as well as silly, imposition on the local populace. (I saw that they are going to implement some rapid crossing documents, but those are/will be for select buisnesses, not the bulk of the people crossing). It also will impact our tourism; most of the folks we get crossing from out of the area (spring breakers, paisanos (migrants) coming south for the Christmas holiday or Semana Santos) are either young or not affluent and don't have passports either.

In my opinion, requiring passports for all returning Americans to the U.S. from Mexico/Canada is not going to significantly improve security, and it *is* going to represent a significant expense/pain-in-the-rear factor, especially for local residents/frequent travellers across our southern border; and it *will* have a chilling effect on cross-border tourism by the young, the not-so-affluent, and not-so-cosmopolitan. And if these folks are U.S. *citizens*, returning to the U.S., why all the scrutiny? It's not that hard to check a state I.D. if there's a question about it, and it's not as if passports can't be forged either if someone was intent on sneaking in. This seems to me to be a case of 'security' that has very little to do with 'stopping terrorism' and much more to do with getting the chance to sneak in additional surveillance of people's everyday lives. By the way, this passport requirement is going to be implemented for cruise ships at the end of *this* year; it will be interesting to see how this affects folks who like to take budget cruises to Mexico, which haven't until now required anything more than an I.D., birth certificate or Social Security card, and for you to fill out a tourist card.

Finally, in a possibly mind-boggling example of just how prevalent the 'business/tourist dollars at any cost' mindset is here, you may have seen on the news lately that we've had a small narco gang problem down here involving a few kidnappings/murders etc (21 US citizens kidnapped/murdered on the N.L. side between January-March), prompting a travel advisory. Laredo's response: They launched a glossy tourism campaign, and all during Spring break aired sunny TV spots where they interviewed tourists and local business owners about how wonderful everything was down here. Unfortunately, the Monday night of Spring break the local Pro-8 news also aired an interview with a couple of young men down here for the holiday who had gotten shaken down for $400.00 (were forcibly taken to an ATM and told to withdraw their maximum)... by the local N.L. cops ;). Somehow, I don't think that requiring passports from *U.S.* citizens returning from Mexico is going to have much of an impact on the actual problems we have here on the border...

There, was that long-winded enough for y'all? Spring has finally blown some wind back into my sails, it was a crummy winter from a physical/mental health perspective so I spent most of in hibernation/buried in WoW... ;)

Regards,
Nydia

Throughout my travels in Europe ..Your passport is checked at the arrival airport and then at hotels you stay at. Travelling by train from country to country, they checked your passport and ticket at each station.
Only issues we had were the guys in Paris hated us =) ...
Told everyone I was from Las Vegas and doors opened =)
Dead giveaways for Americans .. hats backwards and white socks ...
Central and South America both the same thing .. They care less about your passport than they do the exit tax .... :cool:

Uh uh, European Union...

Well, from the travel perspective currently there are two kinds of EU,

- the countries inside the area of the so called "Schengen treaty" these do not have border checkpoints on their common borders and only protect their outside borders

- the other EU countries where either the treaty was not accepted or not in force yet.

So EU citizens have to show their national ID (or passport, driver license won't work) in case they want to enter or leave the "Schengen" area and if they want to cross from any "non-Schengen" country to another.

Yes yes, this is all inside the European Union.

Imho it is only a minor issue, the last few times I had to cross the border between Austria and Hungary waving my passport was enough.


Do we need better security in this country? Sure, but at what cost? This country was founded upon freedom, something we have enjoyed and taken for granted too often I fear. However, in the interest of making the nation more secure, I believe that we will see some sort of mandate or initiative that will result in a national ID system. You get one, you can stay at our hotel.... you don't got one?... well.. please wait over there... the police will be here shortly.


As for that, you don't know how lucky you are :)

I live in Central Europe, in one of the ex-eastern-block countries.
Two words: ID fetish.
Can't leave home without my ID in case a cop asks to see it and if I don't have it with me I could end up behind bars on the next police station for a few hours till they establish my identity.

If I drive a car past midnight then I have about 50% chance to be pulled over for inspection (Good evening, may I see your ID, driver's license, the car's papers, your car insurance and while we are at it please blow into this breathanalyser so we can see if you consumed any alcohol) and all that without any provocation.

The crime rate is lower than in the US, the country is a member of both the NATO and the EU.

Believe me, this level of control is unnerving.

I have spent a while in the US with business visa (I was collecting a few signatures from clients of a law firm I was working for at that time) and once I was past the immigration officer at the border I felt I was in heaven, for once no one in a uniform started a conversation with me saying "Good evening, may I see your ID...."

<chuckle>

No, if you run afoul of our law enforcement agencies it's usually something like this...

PUT YOUR HANDS ON THE CAR AND SHUT UP!

No wait... that was just in Los Angeles... nevermind...

We do enjoy a great deal of anonymity in the United States and I believe that is one of the reasons why we DON'T have intrusive ID checks and other things that some countries have.

I guess my biggest fear is that I just can't help but feel that the government is going to screw it up somehow and make all our lives miserable.

<< Welcome to McDonald's, may I take your order?

>> Yeah, I'd like a Big Mac, an order of fries and a Diet Coke...

<< May I see your identification card, health release certificate so you don't sue us for making you fat, letter of guarantee that your credit card is good, and please step around the corner for a blood sample. We are complying with government regulations and we are just here to help you.


Okay, maybe not but I still don't like the idea of having to carry my "papers" with me. Whatever comes of it, we'll learn to deal with it.

No, if you run afoul of our law enforcement agencies it's usually something like this...

PUT YOUR HANDS ON THE CAR AND SHUT UP!


Well yea that's a difference, cops don't start to finger their guns automatically here when they pull you over but the point is that they pull you over for no reason but just to see if all your papers are in order.

It might sound stupid but a few years ago they did even check regularly if you had spare bulbs, first aid kit, spare wheel etc etc (all the BS that the traffic safety laws require) in your car during a routine pull over. These days they are mostly interested if you have seat belts on, consumed any alcohol and if your papers are in order.

The only time I've ever been pulled over in my car is when I wasn't wearing my seatbelt.
That's aboot it. Fucker fined me 30 quid too.

I suppose that is true if you go away on spring break or something. I was able to fake being Canadian well enough to start dating a girl I met in Prague from Switzerland ... took her about 2 months to figure it out. By that time I was starting to get antsy and didn't mind she got all uppity about the Iraq invasion -- it was time to move on regardless!

I suppose Prague is a very big exception though, apparently as Sumamael put it some of the other eastern europe countries can be a little hairy-er to travel.

Welcome back Nydia :D

Well, that didnt take long.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=1&u=/ap/20050407/ap_on_re_us/border_volunteers

The shirt read: "Bryan Barton caught an illegal alien and all I got was this T-shirt."

I'm sorry but LOL....that's funny.

Why does the Dukes of Hazard theme song keep popping in my head when I think about this?

I love how the border patrol does such a bad job over time that citizens take matters into their own hands, and then complain the citizens are there. All they had to do was take care of their job, and none of this would be happening.

I was thinking the EXACT same thing when reading the article.

I love how the border patrol does such a bad job over time that citizens take matters into their own hands, and then complain the citizens are there. All they had to do was take care of their job, and none of this would be happening.
The Border Patrol is underfunded and undermanned. The new intelligence overhaul law called for an additional 2,000 border agents. Bush's budget allocates resources for 210 new agents (a shortcoming that prompted negative reactions on both sides of the aisle).

You can't blame the border patrol for not having the manpower to effectively do their job.

Then they should clearly be happy to have the help, if they're undermanned and have nothing to hide.

Then they should clearly be happy to have the help, if they're undermanned and have nothing to hide.

Yeah, I often offer my time to local hospitals to perform elective surgery all the time. They say they are overbooked but they keep turning me down. Ungrateful bastards. /sarcasm off

Because being a security guard with a fancy title is comparable to surgery.

Yea, and also because the kind of help they have are likely little more than armed vigilantes.

At least the Border Patrol are responsible to some entity, these guys (and gals?) answer to their own organization afaik. We're lucky that this incident was just a picture with a t-shirt (albeit a funny tshirt)

Because being a security guard with a fancy title is comparable to surgery.
The problem is that a) they are getting in the way (see my mention of tripping sensors); b) there is concern (http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/index.php?page=local&story_id=030505a4_extremists) that white supremacists may be joining the ranks (a website for Aryan Nation calls the Minuteman Project "A call for action on part of ALL ARYAN SOLDIERS."); c) Giena's point about responsibility (what happens when an unarmed border crosser resists armed vigilantes?).

Yeah, I often offer my time to local hospitals to perform elective surgery all the time. They say they are overbooked but they keep turning me down. Ungrateful bastards. /sarcasm off

In my home town you can't even organize an outing to pick up trash in a state park without having a few Rangers there to supervise. There really needs to be some form of governmental influence because a bunch of hillbillies roaming the borders for illegal immigrants, I would imagine, are slightly more prone to do some harm than a local girl scout troop cleaning up a park.

Oddly, the only other reported incident seems to be the "hillbillies" helping an immigrant who had vehicle trouble.

Aryan lynch mobs indeed.

Given the Minuteman Project has just started, it's no surprise that there haven't been many incidents to report. But you're forgetting the combined reports from Border Patrol agents that these guys have interfered with their own operations (e.g., by tripping sensors).

That just doesn't add up. If the sensors were really that useful, then it wouldn't matter they were undermanned, would it? If they don't have the physical bodies in place to do something, then the sensors are little more than counters letting them know how many times per day they failed.

Again I say, if they have nothing to hide then they should be more than happy to have help and try to coordinate with the volunteers. I'd be surprised if there's not more shady ulterior motives behind them wanting to keep the volunteers away.

What kinds of ulterior motives, and what evidence do you have of such motives other than their concerns of vigilantism?

The sensors can only help the BP's undermanned condition if there are enough men available to check sensor alarms across the length of the border. If a sensor sounds but the nearest border agent is 200 miles away, that sensor isn't much use. If there are enough men so that an agent is 10 miles away, it becomes utile. Then some Minuteman trips an alarm sending agents to the site when they could be covering territory elsewhere or responding to a legitimate alarm.

The intelligence revamp law requested 2,000 border agents for a reason. I suspect it didn't request a volunteer gaggle of Guardian Rednecks for a reason, too.

Well, since none of us has direct experience with either the volunteer group (who is obviously not satisfied with the results of the official efforts) or the Border Patrol (and I highly doubt their record is unmarred by excessive actions), it's all really supposition.

It just seems highly strange that a group of citizens is so disatisifed with the BP that they're spending their own time and money to do it while the BP can't find some way to provide oversight and instead wants them gone. If they're tripping sensors, the really obvious solution would be coordinating with BP over where they will be looking at any given time. The BP response sounds like the instinctive action of a bureaucratic animal when threatened.

If I was running a police organization who's activity typically did not involve violent apprehension of dangerous criminals and I had hundreds of people willing to give my overworked staff a hand FOR FREE, I know I'd find plenty of low-risk work like checking for sensor and fence damage, patroling safe areas, assisting deputized officers with paperwork, analyizing video records, etc. That leaves your own over-stretched staff for stuff like apprehension, detainment and investigation.

Police nationwide encourage "community watch" type activity and you don't hear about The Redneck Posse stringing up catburglars. Given how people are constantly complaining about lack of citizen involvement in government, you'd think the government would be less annoyed with them when they did.

So basically, the sensors are worthless because they don't have enough people. But, the free extra people aren't a help because they trip the worthless sensors?

Everything I've read about the Minuteman group says they stay in fixed groups and don't roam around much. It would be trivially simple for the Border Patrol to coordinate with them and know which sensors to ignore, allowing them to focus their manpower on more important areas.

Instead, they'd rather help drum up sensationalist style stories of "vigilantism".

As for ulterior motives. I couldn't give concrete evidence, but it's simply impossible that there aren't deals made with BP to line their GS-05 paygrade pockets with a little extra cash in exchange for turning a blind eye to the known alien importers.

More relevant, if a "volunteer gaggle of Guardian Rednecks" turns out to be more effective at organizing and carrying out border protection than our law enforcement agency, I doubt that's going to make life easy for the Border Patrol. Better to nip it in the bud than allow the rednecks to show them up. That's the American way we all know and love!

Just for informational purposes....

Wikipedia definitions as follows:

HILLBILLY (homo sapiens yeehaw)

The term "hillbilly" originally referred to Scotch-Irish immigrants of mainly Presbyterian origin, who brought their cultural traditions with them when they moved to the United States. Many of their stories, songs and ballads dealt with past history from their original homeland, especially relating the tale of the Protestant King William III, Prince of Orange, who defeated the Roman Catholic King James II at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690.

Today, "hillbilly" has increasingly insulting connotations - especially as knowledge of the word's fairly harmless origins are forgotten.
To the people of the Appalachian Mountains, the term "hillbilly" carries a negative connotation which has been greatly emphasized by how Hollywood movies and films portray the "hillbilly" as poor, dumb, toothless, shoeless, unstylish, of questionable genetic stock, and so on.



REDNECK (homo erectus bubba)

A redneck is a stereotypical southern United States socially conservative, rural, working class white person with sunburned skin and northern European ancestry. The stereotypical redneck is a male, has a beer belly, consumes cheap American beer such as Budweiser by the case, and holds deeply conservative political views. The stereotypical redneck also lives in a trailer, drives a large pickup truck with a Rebel flag decal and a gun rack in the rear window, has a stained sleeveless t-shirt, a trucker hat or baseball cap and a mullet haircut with long sideburns, and has a wife that appears on The Jerry Springer Show rather often.



I believe that the Minutemen are probably populated with rednecks more than hillbillies. Just a guess, but the pictures I saw would seem to support it. I know, I know... mincing words, but hey I'm at work and bored.

<< DISCLAIMER >>

Okay, so Wikipedia DIDN'T list the genus and family... those were my contributions. :D Enjoy.

Well, since none of us has direct experience...it's all really supposition.
Well, as much as any opinion on a topic is marred by lack of direct experience, compared to actually being the President, fighting in Iraq, working for the UN, etc etc. Without direct experience, we must look to the media and to what the people themselves say.
The BP response sounds like the instinctive action of a bureaucratic animal when threatened.
That may be the case, but consider the legal ramifications of having untrained volunteers nominally under the BP handling patrols. Would you want the government to be responsible for their actions? Would you want your tax dollars at risk of lawsuits over this kind of thing? I imagine the BP just doesn't want to be accountable for this unknown variable suddenly entering their midst.
Police nationwide encourage "community watch" type activity and you don't hear about The Redneck Posse stringing up catburglars.
Sure we do. It's not at all unusual for a thief to get more than he expected when breaking into a home. That's a major argument of the "right to keep and bear arms" belief.
So basically, the sensors are worthless because they don't have enough people. But, the free extra people aren't a help because they trip the worthless sensors?
And because they are not regulated in any fashion, have no oversight, aren't interviewed for the job, and -- according to the FBI -- are attracting an unsavory element. The risks aren't worth the rewards, as far as the BP and FBI are concerned.
Instead, they'd rather help drum up sensationalist style stories of "vigilantism".
What stories have been "drummed up" exactly? The BP and FBI are stating their concerns and now have one example. As Malse says, we don't have first hand knowledge of BP operations; perhaps actual coordination -- while potentially a good idea -- is more complicated due to procedures?
simply impossible that there aren't deals made with BP...
Perhaps this is the answer to Malse's point about how "highly strange" the Minuteman Project's aims are. They want a cut of the action. It's simply impossible that they do not!

WOW, i say we need to put Malse in charge of the border patrol!
but we need to ask a few questions first to see if he's qualified.

How well can you goose step?

Do you wake up every morning and wack your peepee with a ruler in the name of jesus because you know it's evil?

if you budget call's for 368 million and the presidential budget office grants you 248 million. will you contribute 4 million to the tom delay presidential campaing?

Well maybe your not the kind of republican we are looking for after all!

Police nationwide encourage "community watch" type activity and you don't hear about The Redneck Posse stringing up catburglars.

----

Sure we do. It's not at all unusual for a thief to get more than he expected when breaking into a home. That's a major argument of the "right to keep and bear arms" belief.

Uh, I have never heard of Neighborhood Watch people *ever* getting together in force to enact justice on a burglar. If some homeowner shoots someone invading his house, that's something else that is completely outside of the scope of a discussion about questionably effective Federal border patrols. We're talking about organized groups trying to aid law enforcement.

If you want to use extreme case of excessive violence as justification for pre-emptive action, all I have to do is bring up Waco and Ruby Ridge and I've given you ample evidence that the FBI, DEA, and other Federal law enforcement agencies are obviously unqualified to be doing the job of law enforcement as well.

The same FBI also thought we were going to have an armed rebellion in the mid-nineties and went so far as aid groups like the Southern Poverty Law Center in creating reports and publishing books like "Force Upon the Plains" about how the redneck army was forming to storm the cities and cleanse all the darkies, thought the Native Americans were a national security threat in the 1970s, spent most of the budget before 1990 spying on political dissidents, and got away with the murders of dozens of civil rights activists in the 60s and 70s. I'm just a little skeptical when they start commenting on anything remotely political.


That may be the case, but consider the legal ramifications of having untrained volunteers nominally under the BP handling patrols. Would you want the government to be responsible for their actions?

My tax dollars are already equally at risk if Border Patrols agents did the exact same thing, and we already have laws to deal with it. Law enforcement agencies are typically not liable for the actions of deputized officers or civilians unless they knew of illegal activity and did nothing to prevent it, otherwise you'd probably have insurance companies suing them over murders and car thefts.

If it's fear of unregulated citizens roaming the Arizona border with no oversight at all, why doesn't the border patrol oversee them? Like I said, it seems like a huge contradiction to claim you're understaffed and then turn down help

Velvet,


Well maybe your not the kind of republican we are looking for after all!

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and I'm not a Republican, nor do I like Tom Delay.

geez , it's called sarcasm:p , and it was in response to the post of utilizing a volunteer force for mundane tasks in the face on impending budgets crisis. wich made total sense to me and was clue #1 as to the fact your not a rebuplican.

Uh, I have never heard of Neighborhood Watch people *ever* getting together in force to enact justice on a burglar.
My point was that it's not unusual for private citizens to take the law into their own hands (rightly or wrongly) in a violent or unpredictable manner. I'll expand on this in a moment.
If it's fear of unregulated citizens roaming the Arizona border with no oversight at all, why doesn't the border patrol oversee them? Like I said, it seems like a huge contradiction to claim you're understaffed and then turn down help.
I answered this above when stating (per your point in your initial post) that things may be more complicated than you assume. That isn't to say it's not a valid question, but I think the BP would prefer a little firmer knowledge of just who is going to patrol our borders.

Allowing the Minutemen Project (MP) to do whatever they're going to do is an anything goes approach to border security. What is the vetting process for MP members? I don't know what background check goes into hiring BP's, but at least something is in place to try to weed out the loonies and bad eggs. Can that be said for MPs? You're inviting a rather chaotic component into the system, but hey, if you're comfortable with it, nothing I say will change your mind.

A popular tactic for Americans in Europe now.

Yep, ussually when traveling abroad now-a-days I pretend to be from Quebec , since I speak Quebecois french fluently.

Maybe its stupid but my relatives (alot of which who vacation in africa and asia) always have some stories about anti-americanism(long before recent incidents).
Where I've never been bothered with my silly maple-leaf and fake accent.
(At least I'm a dual-citizen though, so its not a total farce)/

I guess I am either lucky or just oblivious but in my travels abroad I never encountered anti-american sentiments. It could be that instead of trying to be rude I actually tried to speak their language and not scoff at them and insist on speaking English. I have found that with the French especially if you greet them nicely in their language and ask nicely if they speak english they will try... even if you butcher their language. But I must say when I was in Morocco I was treated very very well b/c I was American, so maybe I'm just lucky.

So, it's been a month or so. Has anything bad come from the volunteers? I haven't seen any news about it at all in awhile.

I saw this story today, which reminded me about this thread: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050512/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/fbi_cocaine_sting

Like I said, they're definitely on the take.

They left (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/30/border.volunteers.ap/) but may return to other borders if they get the volunteers.

Dear Sanchek:

FYI, our second news story tonight at 6:00 was that a pair of brothers who worked for the Border Patrol here in Laredo had made a deal with the Feds (10 of 12 charges of drug trafficking and conspiracy charges dropped, in exchange for spilling their guts) regarding their involvement in taking and giving bribes associated with letting drugs across the border (they were paid by the pound, their final take shortly before indictment having reached $125,000 per month). I don't know if this was directly or indirectly connected with the Arizona arrests, but I think it's safe to say that this sort of thing is not, sadly, an isolated phenomenon.

Regarding the Minutemen Project, I had written up a painfully long post around the middle of last month comparing that operation with Ranch Rescue, a heat-packing organization that has been staging operations for the last five years or so at various places along the border, their primary focus being protection of border ranchers' property rights, but a WoW-related computer crash ate it and I never bothered to rewrite it. The synopsis was that the Minuteman project was very much a symbolic and idealistic action compared to Ranch Rescue, which does interact directly with apprehendees and does fenceline and damage repair/cleanup at border ranches...
They also pull no punches as to where and why they think the US government has failed border ranchers; a billboard at one of their Douglas actions, which I was partial to, read: "If this was Scottsdale, the National Guard would be here"... (and who knows, perhaps they could be, if they weren't all in Iraq? ;) )

I think it's also important to note that illegal *immigration* and illegal drug trafficking are two very different problems (you don't pull in 125Gs per month letting illegal immigrants across the checkpoint, even by the truckload ;) ), and, Homeland Security having put a metal fence around the LCC campus *this* week (addressing neither of these problems very well, but destroying a 50 year old nature trail in the process), I think we need to have a clear understanding of which we are attempting to address when coming up with new legislation/strategies for dealing with traffic at the border...

Regards,
Nydia

http://www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME=KUSA&IKOBJECTID=d1c7d6c6-0abe-421a-0151-4c17f8a5f712&TEMPLATEID=0c76dce6-ac1f-02d8-0047-c589c01ca7bf

Sorry for nasty ass long link. This deplorable act just happened in Denver. Being in Law Enforcment I can't explain to you the loss. My next Pres candidate will have a STRICT immigrent policy. I am tired of illegal aliens for the most part fucking this country up. IMHO. We need to get rid of achor baby laws. NO support in health care for them. among a few other ideas.

Osgil, the immigration policy in this country was recently changed, ironically enough, to make it much *easier* for women to cross the border and give birth in this country (legal visit time without having to cross back was extended from 3 to 30 days last year in the border zones as I mentioned earlier, making it possible to avoid those crossings-while-in-labor). And as if that weren't enough to make you go "what the hell?" in the face of all this noise we hear from the administration about wanting to get tough on border controls, check out this lovely bit of news from the Border Patrol:

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050513-122032-5055r.htm

For those who are too lazy/busy to click a link, here's the opener:

U.S. Border Patrol agents have been ordered not to arrest illegal aliens along the section of the Arizona border where protesters patrolled last month because an increase in apprehensions there would prove the effectiveness of Minuteman volunteers, The Washington Times has learned.
More than a dozen agents, all of whom asked not to be identified for fear of retribution, said orders relayed by Border Patrol supervisors at the Naco, Ariz., station made it clear that arrests were "not to go up" along the 23-mile section of border that the volunteers monitored to protest illegal immigration.

I think that this administration is talking out of both sides of its face about this issue: on the one hand, using the threat of border control issues to push for changes to passport/visa/drivers' license laws (affecting US citizens and *legal* crossers, these have no effect on illegals), and to gain additional surveillance of our own citizenry, while on the other hand trying to weaken laws/measures that actually combat illegal immigration, as well as cutting/underfunding manpower to the border and trying to minimize this part of the problem. Why? My hypothesis is that this administration doesn't see illegal immigration as a 'bad' thing; a steady stream of downward wage pressure probably makes some of the Dubya's friends pretty happy.

Ugh, procrastination... must...grade...papers...

My hypothesis is that this administration doesn't see illegal immigration as a 'bad' thing; a steady stream of downward wage pressure probably makes some of the Dubya's friends pretty happy.
Insourcing our outsourcing?

Yep, i'm aware Nyd. That's alot of the reason i'm upset. I tried to volunteer for hte minutemen project but someone else took the vacation time in april...LOL The immigration policy is one of the VERY VERY few disappointments in the Bush Administration for me. Oh well no ones perfect.

The Washington Times has learned
When it comes to the "Moonie Times," always find a backup source. ;) (Not to say they're wrong on this, but just sayin'.
Why? My hypothesis is that this administration doesn't see illegal immigration as a 'bad' thing; a steady stream of downward wage pressure probably makes some of the Dubya's friends pretty happy.
Also, Bush and the Repubs are trying to make more headway in the Hispanic community, figuring that it won't cost them a significant number of votes compared to what they could pick up.