http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6232540.stm

- It's not the Albany Conference, but blimey it's a huge step.

Though we still have to jump the referendum hurdles, with twitchy eyes on the Dutch, French, and with Gordon Brown announcing that he will definately hold a referendum when he takes over from Blair next week, the UK, this is still a gigantic step toward a unified and politic European Union.

Major developments:

Long term EU President - finally bringing EU leadership from the abstract to the physical, I like the idea, a lot, and I think foreign countries will too. The only looser here would be the US, diplomatically, as it has always been keen to keep Europe divided politically, but then as its biggest trading partner, a stronger political EU is a better partner.

High Representative for Foreign Affairs - I'm not sure I like this too much. I do agree the EU needs a more focused foreign agenda, but besides legislation soverignity, foreign affairs is right up there as the most sensitive and cherished independent political arm of member states. There is no way, for example, that Britain's foreign agenda would be the same as France's, not even in the forseeable future. But maybe this can bring a coherent comprimise to foreign policy? Less conflict, more focus.. perhaps it could finally be the force to drag France and Germany back on to the foreign stage where they are needed right now? And with a strong peacekeeping element to Europe's foreign policy, this can only be a good thing.

Fewer National Veto powers - Thank ye gads!! We may finally beable to accomplish something without the 3m population states throwing all plans away, while simultaneously making it harder for the more influential states to dominate policy. Good move, too much veto is never a good thing.

More powers for the European Parliament - Of course, this is the greatest achievement. Democracy is god.

I think we're beginning to see a stronger, more unified, and far more progressive Europe emerging on the international stage.

Here here!

Hear Hear!

Stupid fuckers should have just let Napoleon win and be done with it if this is the Grand Plan.

On the day this become official you should go over and piss on Trafalgar's statue Halo.

'Stupid fuckers should have just let Napoleon win and be done with it if this is the Grand Plan.'

- Well there's a slight difference in imperial conquest and political, democratic integration :P
Though of course the supposed perspectives are similar - the theme of unification.
But like I said, this is a sign of greater unification, not of complete unification itself. Because that simply cannot happen. The EU member countries are far too divided, not necessarily political (as this latest treaty shows, the diverse member states can agree) but culturally and historically. Which is great, the EU's motto being "strength in diversity". The EU is essentially a trading bloc, but member states wish to strengthen the polity with greater ties - not just for economic reasons, for for legal, security, and foreign relations reasons.
It is a large, liberal, trading bloc, but supported by a judicial and political framework.
Trust me, most people over here are terrified at the mere mention of EU "superstate", and each seperate state guard their national soverignity with tenacity - France, the Netherlands, and the UK being perhaps the most reactionary against national infringement.
We'll never see a United States of Europe, but a strong, cooperative, and intergrated seperate nations, working toward common goals with seperate identities. That is what we are working toward.

'On the day this become official you should go over and piss on Trafalgar's statue Halo.'

- Heh, you sound like a young, blooded Tory from Oxford.
I'm afriad this isn't the nineteenth century. And Europe doesn't rule the world. There is nothing wrong with working toward common goals in a more politically and economically centralised union to strengthen European peace and prosperity.

It doesn't mean we're all going to loose our identities, our histories, our soverignity, our culture of our heritage.

It'll mean that us Brits will disagree with the French more than ever, but that in a European framework, we can achieve far more than we could in the 21st Century seperately.

How long before we have the United States of the World do you think? ha ha ha JUST Joking! ;)

Approaching the metric, inch by inch.

EDIT: Hilfe. Here I was, actually posting a well structured, constructive, and for the most part free of swearing reply and I accidentally hit mouse4 and poof: Gone. I guess I'll try to reproduce it when I get up.

Heh, United States of the World...

Leela: "Look, I know there are no car chases, but this is important. One of these two men will become president of the world."
Fry: "What do we care? We live in the United States."
Leela: "The United States is part of the world."
Fry: "Wow, I have been gone a long time."

Ah... gotta love Futurama.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6232540.stm

I think we're beginning to see a stronger, more unified, and far more progressive Europe emerging on the international stage.


Being something of a skeptic, as my comments on the North Korea agreement shows, I have to voice it also here regarding the EU opting for a treaty only because they could not agree on a constitution. Yes, diversity is a key element in what is both good and bad here; the diverse cultures and histories will keep this body from ever taking that ultimate final step toward agreeing to become a unified force, because there will always be some who will feel slighted in some manner, rightfully so or not, and they will keep the seeds of discontent at the ready.

And, keep in mind that looking at 2009 for winning approval of the treaty leaves a sizable block of time in which many things may change, due to alliances of both trade and economic basis.

I will take a wait and see approach, tho' I would dearly like to see unification become a reality in Europe to serve as an example for the rest of us that working together can actually be an option.

Aye, if anything - the European Treaty is a miracle in modern international diplomacy and politics. To see the most nationalist, divided, diverse, and historic continent in the world come together in such a manner, in the same century as it tore the earth apart - is quite astonishing. Can only hope for further good things to come.

I think that Europe can come together in the same century BECAUSE they tore each other apart. Europe as a continent knows better than anyone else on the globe how much damage can be done to an entire region if countries within that region can't get along. Now if we can just get Africa and the Middle East to see this. Let's just hope it doesn't have to involve as much loss of life as in Europe during the first half of the 20th century.

The only looser here would be the US, diplomatically, as it has always been keen to keep Europe divided politically, but then as its biggest trading partner, a stronger political EU is a better partner.

I would like to see a link with a calculation of all EU trading numbers to the US.

Canada still remains far and away the biggest trader with the US as a single country goes. China is steadily creeping up but still has a ways to go.

When commerical sub-orbital flights hit the norm you will see China dominate the world unless their political sturcture changes (not holding my breath).

Here are the US trade numbers from April 2007:

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/top/dst/current/balance.html


Cheers,

So anyway. Now that I have some time I will attempt at recreating my masterful (yeah, right) reply. Hopefully the intarweb won't ambush me again.

So anyway. I was at work reading the initial article and topic when I found the urge to reply with a pointless witticism. Me being me and all I really didn't deign to jump into the conversation. Then I got on the tram. In front of me was a crumpled up newspaper from a few days earlier. Bored and without consideration for residual bacteria I decided to read it.
A few pages later I was fuming.
An article about Margot Wallström (Sweden's premier EU-supporter amongst the politicos and the only player with support amongst the populace) made my skin crawl. It told the tale of how the EU leadership was losing contact with the grass roots and the immense amount of struggle that a few politicians were putting down to convince the head honchos not to rape the little folk.
I can't accurately judge the factual truths in the article, but it hit home.
I flipped the page.
France successfully tests an 800-mile (metric) range multiple-warhead ICBM.
Next page.
Great britain demands that European legislature is not to be valid in their courts.
Funny. It is in ours. We get raped about once a year, we just don't have the political power to stop it.
Onwards.
Holland demands guarantees and exceptions.
Next.
Official efforts are being made to restrain Poland's voting power within the European parliament.
I got off the tram in a black mood.

I'd just come off the night shift, but here I was, finishing the last of my whisky-barreled-aged ale and scouring the internet for articles and tidbits on the current state of the European Union.
Denmark's parliament is dodging and weaving to avoid a national vote on membership on the EU. Because they'd lose.
Swedes' confidence in the EU's leadership: Rock bottom. Voices are being raised to exit the union.

I think back to what the EU has given me. And I can't think of much, if anything. Nothing but removing our way of life and fucking us over. Then it hits me that that's what Great Britain and Holland are trying to prevent, whereas Denmark is trying to "Pull A Sweden" and just join without letting the population have a say in it.
I didn't, you know. I didn't get a vote.

And right now, I'd tell them to go fuck themselves. All of them.

I would be very concerned about the accountability of the people making the decisions in the EU if I were a citizen of an EU country. Are you able to vote for the EU MPs that represent you? Just how much power are you willing to give to other countries/cultures to determine your laws?

From what I've seen, an awful lot of decisions are being made around Europe without public consent per se, and that doesn't bode well for a supposedly democratic institution. When politicians start doing end-arounds to implement major new policies without having to hold referendums, its time to look a lot closer at the situation.

I guess I am a "Euroskeptic."

One of the main issues right now is the partisan approach to the EU. French politicians will work towards french interests, and so forth. It lets france in particular get away with some serious shit, like threatening sanctions on countries due to economical difficulties while themselves not adhering to budget and refusing to be penalized for it. The Big Shots (France, Germany, Spain, Great Britain and some others) are like the UN Security Council, hogging all the rights to power within the system. That fucks countries like mine over.
Sweden is, for instance, largely against gene-modified food. The EU is trying to outlaw our system of forcibly labeling the origin of meat and vegetables. Very few swedes are keen on putting this (http://fig.cox.miami.edu/%7Ecmallery/150/neuro/belgian.blue.jpg) on their plates, but if many nations in the EU would get their way we wouldnt be allowed to know.

It goes on like that in many different directions. The European system killed off our small farms by only granting money to larger establishments. Which is funny, since we (the EU) are pouring money into places like Spain and Greece who has the agricultural technology of 19th century Sweden.
Know how much money Sweden gets "back" from what we pour out? Here's a hint: the returnrate on the previously named countries are in the hundreds of percent.

It's stuff like that you know. EU more or less forcibly enters our rectum and won't leave it, and I can't do shit about it. The reason for it is primarilly because Sweden, being a small country, has no political power in the EU. It doesnt matter on how many avenues we actually set the bar for the rest of the world. I guess that if we're lucky we can become a campus to the University of Germany in the Central-European Hegemony.

But for now, all they're doing is lowering my living standards.

And like Gulor said. Their accountability is zero. After all, the politicians in charge aren't swedish.

It is unfortunate that a few countries, like Sweden, don't just up and pull out, citing the kind of circumstnaces pointed out by Kiv. That could have the effect of either forcing the EU to readdress their policies, or it could start the unravelling of the entire ball of yarn. Either way, it would be significant.

The EU has a lot of potential, but it must be implemented in a democratic fashion, which does not seem to be the case at the moment.

I'm sorry, I still see the EU as an attempt to shout to the world "we're different than we were in the past, LOOK we're past our differences" and not infact living that.

I firmly believe it's highly unlikely I'll see the EU as more than a label in my lifetime. I hope they give at least 200 years effort to realizing how large of an enterprise they have undertook and how worth it it infact is.

Long as the Frances and such walk on the Sweden's, the Polands and other smaller states/countries then it's just a new different label on yesterday's same same.

Fandros

To see the most nationalist, divided, diverse, and historic continent in the world come together in such a manner, in the same century as it tore the earth apart - is quite astonishing.

But just as fast as it comes together it can fall apart hundreds of times faster...I hope only for the very best that we learn from our mistakes, overcome them and have a super bright future! I truly hope they can work it out.

Right, so I just did a "Kiv". Ok, so I had a great, long rebuttal and jusitifcation, and then the comp died.
So I re-typed it, and the fackin thing died again.

So in short: EU good, Kiv bad :D

Or... From tearing eachother apart, to this latest trearty a miracle, should look at like that, not like kiv "what it do for me".
Not perfect, need work.
Latest step a positive one.
Agree Fanny, need many years before work like should.
Greater role in world and growth at home justify current development.
You elect pro-EU party, don't vote for them, or leave EU, plenty of countries waiting to replace you.

Fire bad, tree pretty.

Yeah, that was the jist of it. But it was classically Halo, lots of witty jokes, cutting remarks, Ciceronian dialogue, you would have all laughed, cheered, and given me rep points. So do.

Ciao!

Finally, "pulling a Kiv" means something else than getting the entire guild ported out of NToV because I faked a GM server-down message.

Anyways. Don't get me wrong, Justin, I'm very much pro on the EU. I'm just anti on offal consumption. The hypocrisy that the "leaders" of the "union" are displaying irritates me on a far more basic level than the question of what's in it for me. I do believe that Europe's only real hope is a strengthening of the ties between us. I do believe we have far more factors that unifies rather than alienates. I've been pingponging to Holland for the last couple of years and it feels like a suburb of Sweden. Sure, most things are worse off there than here, but they cling to many of the basic values swedish society stands for even though they're quite more anarcistic at the base.
I'd have no problems "merging" with Holland.

I've also in the past been over to GBR and Ireland a lot. Even though the social misery is horrible in England, I could still see a merger.
As long as we all played fair. As long as we dropped the arrogance, the holier-than-thou and the bullshit. As long as we went for understanding rather than opposition. Common ground rather than dying ground.

Right now the EU represents none of these things to me.