US grants Blackwater immunity
Tue, 30 Oct 2007 03:12:43
http://www.presstv.com/photo/20071030/ghahri20071030011844656.jpg Blackwater bodyguards
The US State Department promises Blackwater bodyguards immunity in its investigation into the massacre of Iraqi civilians by the firm.

"Once you give immunity, you can't take it away," a senior law enforcement official familiar with the investigation told AP.

That means it's possible no criminal charges will be brought, or, if they are, it may take months.

Three senior law enforcement officials were quoted by AP as saying that all the Blackwater bodyguards involved were given the legal protections as investigators from the Bureau of Diplomatic Security sought to find out what happened.

The bureau is an arm of the State Department. The investigative misstep comes in the wake of already-strained relations between the United States and Iraq, which is demanding the right to launch its own prosecution of the Blackwater bodyguards.

On September 2007 a Blackwater team guarding a State Department convoy in Baghdad fatally shot 17 Iraqis near a bustling traffic circle. The incident prompted US and Iraqi officials to launch an investigation into the shooting. The preliminary results of the investigation revealed that the shooting was unprovoked, despite the firm's claims that its guards had been attacked before the incident.

http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=29110&sectionid=351020201

A broader article (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BLACKWATER_PROSECUTIONS?SITE=AZTUS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT) on the latest travesty.

It is unfortunate that those responsible will probably never be held accountable.
It makes me wonder what background those bodyguards have, and why they seemed so trigger happy.

I wonder if the investigation will be able to uncover the real reasons it happened.

From what I've read they were just given Garrity protections. Have they all been given full immunity?

From the article I linked:Three senior law enforcement officials said all the Blackwater bodyguards involved - both in the vehicle convoy and in at least two helicopters above - were given the legal protection as investigators from the Bureau of Diplomatic Security sought to find out what happened. The bureau is an arm of the State Department.They were given Garrity protections.

Iraq is about to sign a draft taking away the immunity of all non US military in their country. Looks like they are going to pass it and then demand the Blackwater guards get a trial in Iraq.

The Garrity protection as outlined below allows an officer of the law the ability to answer questions posed, without the reprisal against those unlawful actions.
It doesn't mean that if they are found to have done something wrong through another means other than questioning the officer directly, that they have immunity.



By invoking the Garrity rule, the officer is invoking his or her right against self incrimination. Any statements made after invoking Garrity, may only be used for department investigation purposes and not for criminal prosecution purposes.


http://www.njlawman.com/Garrity.htm

The Garrity protection as outlined below allows an officer of the law the ability to answer questions posed, without the reprisal against those unlawful actions.
It doesn't mean that if they are found to have done something wrong through another means other than questioning the officer directly, that they have immunity.

[/left]
http://www.njlawman.com/Garrity.htm

Does this mean if I become a mercenary that I become an officer of the law?

Unprovoked attack on US citizens ... murder.
Unprovoked attack on Iraqi citizens ... acceptable?

Does this mean if I become a mercenary that I become an officer of the law?

I guess you can, if you contract through the State Department....

Blackwater is currently the largest of the U.S. State Department (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_State)'s three private security contractors, providing a total of 987 contractors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_USA

It also goes on to say :

At least 90 percent of its revenue comes from government contracts, two-thirds of which are no-bid contracts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-bid_contract).[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_USA#_note-4) Missions conducted by Blackwater Security Consulting have raised significant controversy both through casualties suffered and inflicted by their employees

So here is the info about the Iraqi government passing that bill.

Iraq revokes security firms immunity
Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:07:06
http://www.presstv.com/photo/20071030/taabbodi20071030164351046.jpg Iraqi government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh
The Iraqi government has ratified a bill to lift the immunity of the private security companies in the country, a top official says.

"The cabinet has approved a law that will put non-Iraqi firms and those they employ under Iraqi law," Reuters quoted Iraqi government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh as saying on Tuesday.

According to Dabbagh who was speaking after a cabinet meeting, the new law would nullify the immunity granted to foreign security contractors under Order 17, a controversial measure passed by the US-led Coalition Provisional Authority in 2004.

The legislation follows a number of deadly shootings involving foreign security guards, including a Sept. 16 brutal incident involving US firm Blackwater in which 17 Iraqi people were killed 'unprovoked'.

The shootings enraged the Iraqi government which asked the White House to halt all cataracts with the firm and hand over the security agents in the fatal incident for prosecution in Iraq.

Washington ignored the demands but was forced to order an investigation into the event. However, according to AP, the guards enjoy immunity given by the State Department for their investigation in the US.

http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=29184&sectionid=351020201

I hope we give them the people responsible and let them get put on trial.

These guys are mercenaries pure and simple. What has been done to the US Miitary, the Iraqi people and every other damn thing that Bush/Cheney have their hands in is beyond a travesty, it is beyond words.

But hey...we are saving a few bucks by vetoing the childrens healthcare plan.

Is it retroactive?
Will it allow them to also prosecute the Iranian agents that have killed Iraqis as well?
Jedd posts the Blackwater employees have total immunity, and Thor posts they just don't have to incriminate themselves, so which is it?

There is a new report on CNN.com, here it is...

Official: Blackwater guards offered limited immunity
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- No blanket immunity deal was offered to Blackwater guards for their statements regarding a shootout in Iraq last month that left 17 Iraqi civilians dead, two senior State Department officials told CNN Tuesday.

However, some kind of limited immunity was apparently offered by State Department investigators when they questioned the Blackwater personnel apparently involved in the shootings, the officials said.

CNN previously reported the guards were promised their statements would not be used against them in a criminal prosecution as long as the statements were true.

One of the senior State Department officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of a lack of authorization to speak on the matter, said the department's Diplomatic Security branch does not have the right or ability to offer blanket immunity and did not do anything that would inhibit prosecutors if charges are to be pursued.

"We want to see anyone who violated laws or broke rules held accountable," the official said. "Nothing that was done prevents anyone from being prosecuted if they broke the law.

"It's a gross distortion of understanding of the situation to say that anyone at State attempted to shield any of these individuals," the official added.

One of the officials said the investigators were acting under authority of case law that allows government employees to make statements that will then not be used against them in criminal proceedings.
Don't Miss

* Iraqi says shooting victims offered cash
* Waxman: Blackwater may have evaded millions in taxes
* Contractor 'command center' recommended, sources say
* Iraq: Blackwater must go

Monday, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said whatever arrangements were made were not sanctioned by the senior management of the State Department.

Another spokesman said the working-level Diplomatic Security officials in Iraq followed standard procedures and their actions would need to have been cleared by Washington. The spokesman added that Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is not informed of every detail of every action taken.

The decision on whether to prosecute the guards involved in the shooting is in the hands of the Justice Department now because the FBI has taken over the investigation. Video Watch an expert assess the legality of an immunity offer »

Spokespeople for the department and the FBI declined to comment, as did Blackwater.

Monday, the officials speaking on the matter said that even if some kind of limited immunity deal were made, it would not mean that charges would never be brought against those involved in the shooting.

North Carolina-based contractor Blackwater USA says its guards came under fire while protecting a State Department convoy and acted properly in self-defense, but Iraqi authorities have called the killings "premeditated murder."

The prospect of immunity had elicited angry reactions from Democrats.

Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vermont, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, earlier on Tuesday accused the Bush "amnesty administration" of letting its allies, including security contractors in Iraq, shirk responsibility for their actions.

"In this administration, accountability goes by the boards," Leahy said. "That seems to be a central tenet in the Bush administration -- that no one from their team should be held accountable, if accountability can be avoided.

Meanwhile, Iraq's parliament is considering a draft bill that would require security companies operating in the country to obey Iraqi laws with no immunity, Iraqi government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh said Tuesday.

"All security companies operating in Iraq, those affiliated with them and non-Iraqi parties they have a contract with, are subject to Iraqi civil and penal laws," al-Dabbagh said. "There will be no immunity."

The draft bill would also subject security companies to Iraqi laws concerning visas, residency, taxes and customs, al-Dabbagh explained.

The law apparently would not be retroactive, but would address only violations that occur after its passage.

Until then, private contractors in Iraq apparently are still governed by Order 17 of the Coalition Provisional Authority's code for Iraq, set up in the early days of the U.S. occupation.
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Order 17 stated that all non-Iraqi entities working in the country were subject to the jurisdiction of their sending countries and "immune from Iraqi legal process."

"They shall be immune from any form of arrest or detention other than by persons acting on behalf of their sending states," the order said.

Ok, so the bottom line is, the FBI is investigating the incident....
The guards don't have to incriminate themselves, and are open to prosecution if they did indeed break the law.
The Iraqi parliament has passed a law revoking a previous law regarding immunity from Iraq's legal process.

None of this seems outlandish, so I'm not sure why there is such indignation from certain posters, here.

So is this an indication that the Iraqi government is able to stand on its own?
Will we now see Iraqi security companies springing up to bid for US contracts to keep U.S. diplomats safe?

Ok, so the bottom line is, the FBI is investigating the incident....
The guards don't have to incriminate themselves, and are open to prosecution if they did indeed break the law.
The Iraqi parliament has passed a law revoking a previous law regarding immunity from Iraq's legal process.

None of this seems outlandish, so I'm not sure why there is such indignation from certain posters, here.

So is this an indication that the Iraqi government is able to stand on its own?
Will we now see Iraqi security companies springing up to bid for US contracts to keep U.S. diplomats safe?

I think the original reports of Immunity made everyone jump and cry foul. We are somewhat being calmed down now.

I think the original reports of Immunity made everyone jump and cry foul. We are somewhat being calmed down now.

Well, what sells papers/gets ratings?

Blackwater Guards granted 5th Amentment rights that all Americans enjoy.

Or
OMFG!!!11! Bush/Cheney letting murderers off scott free!!!!11!

ABC received the text of the agreement. An article (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Story?id=3795318&page=1) sums it up. Notable grafs:In each of the statements, the guards begin by saying "I understand this statement is being given in furtherance of an official administrative inquiry," and that, "I further understand that neither my statements nor any information or evidence gained by reason of my statements can be used against me in a criminal proceeding, except that if I knowingly and willfully provide false statements or information, I may be criminally prosecuted for that action under 18 United States Code, Section 1001."
...
"If anyone gave such immunity it was done so without consulting senior leadership at State," a senior State Department official initially told ABC News.
...
The immunity granted to the Blackwater guards is more limited in scope than so-called "transactional immunity" which would prevent any proscution for the alleged crimes. But the immunity granted to the guards means that anything said in the statements -- and anything learned as a result of the statements -- cannot be used by prosecutors.
...
"It's a nightmare for prosecutors," said legal expert Eugene Fidell.
...
The panel's report, drafted by Ambassador Patrick Kennedy, concluded that even if a private security guard committed cold-blooded murder, there may be no legal basis for prosecuting the guard in U.S. courts under current law.
"The panel is unaware of any basis for holding non-Department of Defense contractors accountable under U.S. law," the report concluded.
I'm curious just who granted them protections and under what authority he or she did so.

They mostly do a good job.

Just put them under jurisdiction of UCMJ, end of story

Seriously, contractors doing soldier's jobs becuase we don't have a draft should be under the same laws that govern the military. And then held to the same standards.

That would seem so obvious, ya know?

The latest news I saw on this (NBC nightly news) it was stated that the Blackwater employees were refusing to cooperate with the FBI in it's investigation after challenges have been made to their "Immunity".

The latest news I saw on this (NBC nightly news) it was stated that the Blackwater employees were refusing to cooperate with the FBI in it's investigation after challenges have been made to their "Immunity".

Fine then... Ship their asses off to Iraq

Seriously, contractors doing soldier's jobs becuase we don't have a draft should be under the same laws that govern the military. And then held to the same standards.

Same laws, same standard, quadruple the pay? Who would enlist then?

These Blackwater people are mercenaries...nothing more and nothing less. They are trained by and gain experience in the US Military and then offered jobs at times with salaries of $300,000 and this guy Eric Prince get's very wealthy with no bid contracts and we the taxpayer pay to train his employees. That's a better scam than any professional con man could ever think of.

So Blackwater operates a private army...I smell Colonel Kurtz.

Pays very little or nothing in employee training costs.

Has more basic rights than the average American.

Fine then... Ship their asses off to Iraq

Soon as we're able to ship your ungrateful ass to Iran I'd be willing to listen to such shit.

Lord knows Iraq would be further along the path to rebuilding if your "peaceful" country of origin would stay on their side of the border.

/whistles up France...c'mon boys, start the practice runs!!

Soon as we're able to ship your ungrateful ass to Iran I'd be willing to listen to such shit.

Lord knows Iraq would be further along the path to rebuilding if your "peaceful" country of origin would stay on their side of the border.

/whistles up France...c'mon boys, start the practice runs!!

Personal attacks suit you well

Protecting murderers and attacking dissenters...

Could say much the same of you bud, or are your lil really visicous rep comments coming from a happier place?;P

Could say much the same of you bud, or are your lil really visicous rep comments coming from a happier place?;P

I haven't hit you with neg rep in awhile bud, and you usually got hit with them after a particularly nasty little comment from yourself there.

But enough about me... You support Blackwater in this?

Nope ya self important twit and I never said I did. You just threw that at me when I said something you didn't care for.

However I'm not one to support American citizens being thrown to the sharks without due process. They'll be investigated first via our channels and then we'll see what's what.

Nope ya self important twit and I never said I did. You just threw that at me when I said something you didn't care for.

However I'm not one to support American citizens being thrown to the sharks without due process. They'll be investigated first via our channels and then we'll see what's what.

I agree ,well with everything except the self important twit part. With blackwater being so defiant however, one has to wonder why they are getting special treatment. Soldiers seem to have it worse.

one has to wonder why they are getting special treatment. Soldiers seem to have it worse.

Its called campaign donations and other ways to transfer money to politicians while they make sure you get rich too.

Its really simple and we the people bought it hook line and sinker.

Eric Prince starts a company called blackwater, his father is a very connected person in the republican party.

Prince plays the part of the good patriotic christian whose ony concern is advancing the freedoms of America.

The average backwoods, Nascar loving gimp buys into the bullshit and rides the bandwagon of the whole problem with the USA is caused by liberal homosexuals who want to destroy the sanctity of marriage and burn flags. All the while they sit like zombies with unblinking stares as the politicians talk about how we need more Eric Princes.

Princes connections through his father then make sure Blackwater is given lucrative, high profit no-bid contracts worth billions of dollars.

Prince then makes sure that these same politicians get nice campaign donations and don't forget when a politician leaves office they get to keep whatever is in their campaign chest. Prince also does things like give million dollar plus contracts to the politicians wifes brand new consulting business, even though she has no experience in security let alone consulting.

Prince makes huge profits on no-bid contracts that HE names the price on, the politician gets to retire with an overflowing campaign chest and they get to live off of the seven figure salary his wife now makes.

Its called campaign donations and other ways to transfer money to politicians while they make sure you get rich too.

Its really simple and we the people bought it hook line and sinker.

Eric Prince starts a company called blackwater, his father is a very connected person in the republican party.

Prince plays the part of the good patriotic christian whose ony concern is advancing the freedoms of America.

The average backwoods, Nascar loving gimp buys into the bullshit and rides the bandwagon of the whole problem with the USA is caused by liberal homosexuals who want to destroy the sanctity of marriage and burn flags. All the while they sit like zombies with unblinking stares as the politicians talk about how we need more Eric Princes.

Princes connections through his father then make sure Blackwater is given lucrative, high profit no-bid contracts worth billions of dollars.

Prince then makes sure that these same politicians get nice campaign donations and don't forget when a politician leaves office they get to keep whatever is in their campaign chest. Prince also does things like give million dollar plus contracts to the politicians wifes brand new consulting business, even though she has no experience in security let alone consulting.

Prince makes huge profits on no-bid contracts that HE names the price on, the politician gets to retire with an overflowing campaign chest and they get to live off of the seven figure salary his wife now makes.

That is pretty bad

Same laws, same standard, quadruple the pay? Who would enlist then?

Hmm probably the same people who still enlist and re-enlist even though they make four times the pay and have far less demanding standards?

Same laws, same standard, quadruple the pay? Who would enlist then?

Probably

The average backwoods, Nascar loving gimp

Being patriotic is so old skool, I'm not sure anyone knows what it is anymore....

Wow another Neg rep hit? I guess discussing issues with people without losing your cool and cussing them out is a bad thing.

Just one note, Blackwater got one no bid contract. Since 2005, they've been having to bid to win.

And just browsing this thread, it's quite shocking that many of the folks on this board who rant and rave about the so-called rights of terrorists have completely steamrolled these citizens, just because their profession is making money protecting people?

Presumably, the only people who were given "immunity" are those people who can testify against the real culprits who committed the alleged crimes. I guess that got lost on some people's emotional synapses.

Just one note, Blackwater got one no bid contract. Since 2005, they've been having to bid to win.

And just browsing this thread, it's quite shocking that many of the folks on this board who rant and rave about the so-called rights of terrorists have completely steamrolled these citizens, just because their profession is making money protecting people?

Presumably, the only people who were given "immunity" are those people who can testify against the real culprits who committed the alleged crimes. I guess that got lost on some people's emotional synapses.

Well Akipt, you have a CEO saying that they were fired upon first, but a military investigation that found that they had fired first without any threat to themselves. Therefore the fact that already there is contradiction between the reports of Blackwater and the report of the military, there should not be reason why any member of Blackwater should have, even partial immunity. How would the testimony of a witness who happens to be a member of blackwater implicate themselves unless they too were responsible for some sort of attrocities.

Akipt, if the company got 1 no bid contract, then it's 1 time too many for some people....
Some people on this board believe the the people that are being given "Immunity" are horrible for trying to protect themselves from losing their jobs.
I mean if I were given the choice to become a police officer (about the only other well paying job someone with an infantry background can get) starting anywhere from $40-$45K/year versus working for Blackwater making $400K/year, I know what I'd choose.


/derail on
Jedd your neg rep hits are of no relivance to this thread.
If you wanna cry about how people are dissing you for opening your piehole, start another thread about it.

/derail off

/derail on
Jedd your neg rep hits are of no relivance to this thread.
If you wanna cry about how people are dissing you for opening your piehole, start another thread about it.

/derail off

Well seeing as how every rep hit i possibly took part in were posted up for discussion in other threads, I see no reason for you to have a problem with me bringing it up...

The hypocricy is expected, deal with it.

-Nice neg rep hit "Whatever, Nobody cares about you - Sixee"

And just browsing this thread, it's quite shocking that many of the folks on this board who rant and rave about the so-called rights of terrorists have completely steamrolled these citizens, just because their profession is making money protecting people? Reading hard, yes. No one is steam-rolling anyone. It's questionable that the participants in the shooting were given legal protections by State Dept underlings when they might be guilty of very real crimes.

Presumably, the only people who were given "immunity" are those people who can testify against the real culprits who committed the alleged crimes. I guess that got lost on some people's emotional synapses.What presumably got lost was text I quoted on the first page of this thread:Three senior law enforcement officials said all the Blackwater bodyguards involved - both in the vehicle convoy and in at least two helicopters above - were given the legal protection as investigators from the Bureau of Diplomatic Security sought to find out what happened. The bureau is an arm of the State Department.

-Nice neg rep hit "Whatever, Nobody cares about you - Sixee"


Obviously Sixee cares, at least enough to take the time to type out the rep hit. Of course, it reads like most of his other contributions to the threads, meaning there is no real content to it. He actually had me fooled for a short time that he had somehow had some metamorphosis, and was actually going to be posting thought out comments, but that quickly devolved back into his old style cut ad paste and quote and blah blah blah....

oops, sorry for derailing.

Hey, maybe I will get a neg rep hit now.:rolleyes:

Its not like they are gunslingers out shooting up towns and robbing the central Iraqi bank on a whim. Im sure there is a reason for there actions but most of the reports that brought this about have been either leaning one way or another as to guilt and what actually happened.


There paid to protect there cargo be it an Iraqi official contract workers or what not.

And just browsing this thread, it's quite shocking that many of the folks on this board who rant and rave about the so-called rights of terrorists have completely steamrolled these citizens, just because their profession is making money protecting people?

I can see how in our political climate, a proponent of due process of law being applied equally to everyone is shock, shock, shocking.

You are right Malse, the due process of law should be applied to everyone.
Instead, we get information "leaked to the press", people judged in the Court of Public Opinion, and a retraction printed on page 24, beneath the weather report if it's found to be inaccurate.

Why don't we all let the investigation go the way it's supposed to? Form our opinions after its been proven if any crime has occured?
Because we all want to be the one that says "I told you so!!!" and gloat.
If a crime occured, the inaccurately reported "immunity" will not protect the people responsible.

What it does is allow people that were not directly involved, that may have knowledge of what happened the freedom to speak, without the jeopardy of prosecution. Think accessory after the fact.
The ones that were involved will either lie or remain silent. Granting them "immunity" serves no purpose.

All it does when it is "leaked to the press" is stir up the hornet's nest of public opinion, as we have seen here on the boards. Oh, and of course increase ratings/circulation.

/derail on
Hope that was well thought out enough for you Byl, as I am sure you will point out the points that were not.
/derail off