Read it Here (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11892317/)

Makes one think. One of the interesting things is that depending on when a soldier was there the views differ but overall are the same.

Thanks for the link, Rover.

I also enjoyed the stories on Boehner's extensive travels and gift-taking, and the one on Bush and Congress relations.

Should be an interesting election year.

Thanks for the link, Rover.

I also enjoyed the stories on Boehner's extensive travels and gift-taking, and the one on Bush and Congress relations.

Should be an interesting election year.


LOL...I missed those.

War: In their own words
Over the past year, The Washington Post conducted in-depth interviews with 100 of the more than 500,000 veterans of the war.

0.02%

Hellova sample. You'd laugh at this sample size on any other issue.

Reading comprehension helps. It says it conducted in-depth interviews with each individual, not in-depth reviews of the whole army.

Hmm


Pretty much exactly sums up my experience over there.

The historical sites are among the oldest in the world -- the ruins of Babylon, Nineveh and Ur.

I was lucky enough to visit them. I have photo's of the temple of Ur, and other biblical areas. It really is awe inspiring to see such things of lore.

As for experieces, I was there in the first rotation. I had to use baby wipes to take field showers. Put camel spiders in a bucket and let them fight it out with scorpions. Threw chem lights in the air to simulate the 4th of july. Put wet socks on the water bottles to keep them cool when the only ice we got for the day was gone by 11am. Could not work on the vehicles from 11am-4pm because they literally where too hot touch. Watching it rain mud. Not being able to see the road in front of the Humvee because of the sand storm, and having to look down on the side of the road to make sure you are still on it. Being afraid that I was going to have to write a letter to the parents of a soldier that died under my command. (thank god I did not have to).

We got our first air-conditioner 4 months into the rotation. What they say about the Iraqi peddlers is true.. you name it, they could find it. I also remember the people who Saddam tortured coming up and not being afraid to thank you. I remember having to worry about females in my unit and trying to keep things under control. If I was a psy major, I could write a book on how being in a high stress environment helps foster relationships that would never occur elsewhere. If you wonder what I mean, we called them "desert queens". It sounds mean and cold, but true. And I still see the effects that being over there has on individuals. I still 2 years later catch myself jumping out of bed in the middle of the night for NO reason. It is a very rare thing, but it happens. I could go on all day.

I guess what I was trying to say... the article is dead on.

Sounds like they almost tried to be objective, but they had to end it on a negative note.
Remember, if we would have had this kind of news reporting in WWII, The East Coast would be speaking German, and the West Coast would would be speaking Japanese.

Sounds like they almost tried to be objective, but they had to end it on a negative note.
Remember, if we would have had this kind of news reporting in WWII, The East Coast would be speaking German, and the West Coast would would be speaking Japanese.
Instead, we have you speaking Retard, with another painfully bad analogy.
I was lucky enough to visit them. I have photo's of the temple of Ur, and other biblical areas. It really is awe inspiring to see such things of lore.
Shanno, anywhere you have those photos posted (or can they be posted here?). I'd love to see 'em.

Instead, we have you speaking Retard, with another painfully bad analogy..

So your reaction to my statement, is....to attack me personally.
How Typical.
Your argument must be pretty weak, if that's what you have to retort to.
What's next? My dad can beat up your dad?
Pathetic.

Remember, if we would have had this kind of news reporting in WWII, The East Coast would be speaking German, and the West Coast would would be speaking Japanese.

....and if we didn't, we'd have a nice cozy facist regime in place, like some want. :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist

I don't think this applies to the Current state of affairs in the U.S.

Just because you don't agree with what the Majoity of America wants, doesn't make it a Fascist Regime. It's Democracy in action.
The proper response is to try and win people over to your way of thinking, not to point fingers and claim you are being oppressed.

Do you read...or just respond.


I said, IF we didn't have reporting like that.

..and btw, the "majority' think this administration is doing a shit job.

"Majority" in quotes is correct.
Depends on what version of "Majority" you mean.
The "Majority" according to CNN; CNBC; MSNBC; CBS; NBC; ABC; the "Majority" according to Fox News, or the real Majority?
Or do you mean the "Majority" according to the world view?

The majority in the US AND the world...and don't even try to give me..."all the media except Fox is biased" BS.

Actually, they are both biased.
So We should do what the world wants?
Sounds like John Kerry's Litmus test.
"Please France, can we go after the terrorists planning to unleash Hell on the United States of America?"
"Sacre Bleu!!! Mon illegal Oil for Food kickbacks shall be détruit. Non, mon Ami!"

I have a few of them Thor that I will have to find. They use to be on the old IvM site but that is long gone. I will find a site to host and link them.. will take me a few days since I am pretty busy buying a house right now.

You know.. Since I read this post this morning and read the article I have been reflecting alot on that deployment. Even with all that sucked about it, there were also alot of good times. A person really learns alot about himself and the others around him, and it really builds a level of trust (or sometimes distrust) in the people around you that many find hard to relate. The best thing, it builds friendships that last. I still talk to a soldier that I served with over there for 3 months out of the year I was there. I went to Germany last year for a training event and saw people I served with, who I never thought I would see again. There are many good things that come along with the bad.

There are soldiers that choose to remember only the bad things. While it is usually the bad things that stick in my mind, I do cherish all the good things that came along. I remember choosing to stay up and hang out with the lower enlisted in the TOC, playing Warcraft 3 or battlefield over a makeshift network. Throwing a football around while wearing a kevlar and flackjacket.. almost felt like the NFL. Or probably the best was hearing the relief in my parents voice when I would call them and say hi. I could choose to remember suffering from heat exhustion on my 31st b-day, or walking into a morgue and seeing the body of a soldier who committed suicide for whatever reason. I could chose to remember how disappointed I was when they extended my 6 month tour to 1 year boots on the ground (only had two months to go). Imagine having to break that news to a group of soldiers.

Through all of this... I chose to remember the good. I try to keep a positive outlook on things..

Actually, they are both biased.

All media is biased..one has to read it all and decide where the truth is for him/herself.

So We should do what the world wants?

Dammit we are American, fuck the rest of the world, we don't need them. So what if they hate us alomst everywhere...we'll just travel in the US. Nuke the world..sea of glass..yada..yada..yada. /sarcasm off

So your reaction to my statement, is....to attack me personally.
How Typical.
I've responded at length enough to your posts that it's hardly typical. What is typical are your terrible historical analogies, simplistic suggestions and links to the opinions of this or that nutcase. Your allegation that reporters have such a significant effect on the conduct of war that they could have lost WW2 simply demeans both journalists and the very soldiers that did the fighting. Additionally, you made that claim -- typically -- without even a mote of support.
Through all of this... I chose to remember the good. I try to keep a positive outlook on things..
Sometimes it's all you can do, and more power to you. Hope to have a look at the pics if you're able to find a host. Thanks.

I've responded at length enough to your posts that it's hardly typical. What is typical are your terrible historical analogies, simplistic suggestions and links to the opinions of this or that nutcase..

And your Multi-complex, enlightened answer to the situation is.....?

And here's my Proof:
1. We should not have declared war on Germany or Italy. After all, it was Japan who attacked Pearl Harbor, not Germany. Europe should have sorted that one out.




2. The warnings of German scientists who fled to the US regarding Hitler's plans to develop a "superbomb" were most likely inaccurate -- everyone knows that political refugees can't be trusted. Roosevelt probably made it up and lied to us anyway.
3. Roosevelt's family was involved in defense businesses. No war for money!
4. Roosevelt and his advisers knew in advance of the Japanese attack but did nothing about it, giving him an excuse to go to war and enslave the rest of us.
5. Rumors of enslavement and genocide of a certain racial minority were likely overblown. Besides, they were only Jooooos and don't really count.
6. The evil US government rounded up innocent Japanese-Americans and put them in a prison in the desert because of race-hate politics.
7. US casualties numbered nearly 420,000 killed. Who should be the last to die for a lie?
8. We never caught Hitler -- the entire war is obviously a failure.
9. We used a WMD on the utterly innocent people of Japan and showed the entire world how the REAL fascists operate.
10. The US and its puppet "allies" occupied Germany for 7 years trying to set up a government despite the actions of noble patriotic groups (consisting of former Nazis and sympathizers) constantly disrupting peacekeeping activities. Assassinations of local political leaders, terror-inducing explosions, and general societal disruption were all designed to weaken the resolve of the Americans to see the operation to its end. Regrettably, we prevailed.
11. 60 years later, we still have troops occupying Germany. Quagmire!!!!!!!

http://skymusings.blogspot.com/2005/12/wwii-was-illegal-badly-run-and-we-lost.html

So your proof that reporters cause us to lose wars is dingbat satire? It's like the Second Coming of Elren.

So your proof that reporters cause us to lose wars is dingbat satire? It's like the Second Coming of Elren.

Wow, you are pretty uptight.
Maybe you need to find a nice Jewish Girl to try and trick into playing "Hide the Sausage" with like "Bubba" Clinton did.

And here's more proof:

Myth:

The United States lost the war in Vietnam.

The American military was not defeated in Vietnam. The American military did not lose a battle of any consequence. From a military standpoint, it was almost an unprecedented performance. (Westmoreland quoting Douglas Pike, a professor at the University of California, Berkley a renowned expert on the Vietnam War) [Westmoreland] This included Tet 68, which was a major military defeat for the VC and NVA.

http://www.vietnam-war.info/myths/

Hahha. man, you sure know how to reach.

Shouldn't the answer start with "Wait, we never declared war"?

Stretch? I found that info on the 1st page when I Googled "Media Lost Vietnam War"

? And I can find evidence on the first page of "Bush is a cheney puppet" too.

Dude, if you're running an emergency evacuation from the rooftop of your embassy while a mob tries to push your gates down, you've lost.

Myth:

The United States lost the war in Vietnam.

The American military was not defeated in Vietnam. The American military did not lose a battle of any consequence. From a military standpoint, it was almost an unprecedented performance. (Westmoreland quoting Douglas Pike, a professor at the University of California, Berkley a renowned expert on the Vietnam War) [Westmoreland] This included Tet 68, which was a major military defeat for the VC and NVA.


Yes the '68 Tet offensive was a military defeat for the VC and the NVA. But it was a political victory. The type of war that was Vietnam and that IS Iraq is not so much about military victory but about political victory.

Lets look at the case of Khe Sahn. Was it a military victory? Well, the NVA were not able to take the base from the Marines. The problem is that we handed it to them after we abandoned it. So every Marine that died at Khe Sahn died not to win the battle, but died to prove a point and a point that Westmoreland and the politicians wanted to make. That the US couldn't be defeated on the field of battle by the NVA like the French were.

Look at the battle for Dong Ap Bia or otherwise known as Hamburger Hill. There was a great military victory, unfortunately after we made certain that a bunch of young Americans were killed proving that we could take the hill...well...we just handed it to the NVA.

Westmoreland was an idiot who had not a clue as to what we were doing in Vietnam and had much to do with the outcome of the war as a whole...read the history.

Many soldiers who fought in Vietnam came back very disillusioned by the bullshit rhetoric that was spewed by Washington claiming victory only to be proven that things like Khe sahn and Hamburger Hill were commonplace occurences.

So we apply that Disillusioned attitude to today's situation, and viola, Instant Defeat <TM>.
Vietnam was a sad, sorry mess, to be sure. But it doesn't apply to today's conflict, even though the Media was using the comparison 2 days (I was waiting for it) into the Invasion of Baghdad.
So when is it a good idea to go to war?
When the enemy is planning to hurt you?
When the enemy is in the process of hurting you?
After the enemy has hurt you?
I'm pretty sure I know when I'd like to fight them.

I'm pretty sure I know when I'd like to fight them.


Then I guess its about time you got your ass on a plane to Iraq. Or isnt this when you'd like to fight them?

Actually, I did. I did volunteer for this time as well, but because of my health and injuries I recieved a few years ago, was told I wasn't fit for duty.
Any other smart assed remarks?

So you just walked out without volunteering for stateside desk duty? What about the National Guard?

Actually, I did. I did volunteer for this time as well, but because of my health and injuries I recieved a few years ago, was told I wasn't fit for duty.
Any other smart assed remarks?

Reading Comprehension is your friend.
I could not make it because I have limited mobility in my lower right leg due to a Spiral fracture I recieved 4 years ago. I could not pass the physical that I did when I was 19 years old, and was told I was unfit for duty.
That means I couldn't reach the "Basic" standards for a soldier, National Guard or otherwise.
Anything else you'd like to know?
My Blood type is A Positive, I have brown hair, and I'm a recent Divorcee.

I'm a recent Divorcee

Hey, you're more liberal than I thought. When you said you were married to a black woman, I assumed you were a guy.

Hey, you're more liberal than I thought. When you said you were married to a black woman, I assumed you were a guy.

LOL, Whoops, I musta missed the "D" key there.

So we apply that Disillusioned attitude to today's situation, and viola, Instant Defeat <TM>.
Vietnam was a sad, sorry mess, to be sure. But it doesn't apply to today's conflict, even though the Media was using the comparison 2 days (I was waiting for it) into the Invasion of Baghdad.
So when is it a good idea to go to war?
When the enemy is planning to hurt you?
When the enemy is in the process of hurting you?
After the enemy has hurt you?
I'm pretty sure I know when I'd like to fight them.

That disillusioned attitude? Why would anyone with military experience or a basic knowledge of history be dissillusioned?

You mean like watching the latest and greatest helicopter assault on the insurgents in Iraq? The insurgents who most certainly wouldn't stand around waiting for the helicopters to land to see what the guys in them were gonna do. Much like the sudden appearance of a bunch of farmers in the rice paddies in Vietnam when US helicopters would be heard coming in for a landing.

You mean the dissillusion that could be brought on by watching the people in Washington expecting us to buy into that same bullshit that was pulled in Vietnam?

Those of us who served in Nam and those who more recently have served in Iraq really don't need another pseudo-intellectual combing the internet for bits and pieces of writings that can be used to argue political bullshit.

We lost so much more than just the war in Viet Nam, and we are losing so much more than just the war in Iraq for the same reasons. As soldiers, regardless of which branch or active status, we go where and when we are told and do our best to accomplish the mission. BUT, if our leaders do not prepare adequately by looking past the intitial goals, by researching who exactly our enemy is and their cultural and or tribal traits and codes, by setting exit strategies along with battle plans, by allowing the military commanders to lead the military rather than political decisions guiding operations, then our best efforts on the field of battle will mean little in the face of historical review.

In Viet Nam, our leaders underestimated the fierce tenacity of our enemy and his commitment to drive out ANY invading army from his homeland. In Iraq our leaders made a huge tactical mistake by not studying the religious underpinnings of the culture and society before attempting to impose a western political system on them; democracy may be embraced but it may be by three separate states in the end (Kurd, Shiite and Sunni).

I was with the 101st in Nam, and I feel a bit of a twinge whenever I hear of a 101st casualty in the news, even now all these years later. Having these posers (to use my son's lingo) running off at the mouth because they have internet access really gets irritating, but that is after all the freedom we guarantee all citizens (as long as the Homeland Security folks are not offended). Maybe they will take some time and try to figure out what I mean when I say we "lost so much more"; here is a hint, watch the news and read the papers and look at what is happening around the country in the coffee shops and workplaces and campuses and families.

I would call Sixee a Nimrod, but that would only insult the cute creature from "Surface". Instead, I think I will just ignore his postings from now on, and enjoy the discourse of the rest.

I would call Sixee a Nimrod, but that would only insult the cute creature from "Surface". Instead, I think I will just ignore his postings from now on, and enjoy the discourse of the rest.

Thank you for your service to our country. Your sacrifice is appriceated, and you are a true hero.
Thank you for defending the right of people to speak freely, and enjoy the discourse of the others.
It is your right to not listen to my "idiocy" as it were, just as it is within my rights not to listen to yours.
Don't think I haven't learned anything from your posts.
Ever think I'm just here to stir the pot, and get a reaction out of people?
If your reaction is to ignore me, then so be it. Too bad, I think you were 1 of the few here that could actually go toe to toe with me on any given arguement.

So you just walked out without volunteering for stateside desk duty? What about the National Guard?


You need to stop watching movies like "First Blood" and get a clue about the modern day National Guard. For starters, our standards are the same as the active componet, and if you want to get techical, it is harder. We have to have employers that can be prepared to have thier managers, clerks, IT professionals, and anything else leave without a moments notice and be gone for 1-2 years. We have to have families that can survive without the assistance of a active duty base. Many times those families must survive on LESS income because when a soldier that is making $90k a year as a executive now makes 32K a year as a specialist.. those are serious issues. Oh yea.. we still need to make height/weight standards, PT, weapons Qual, and.... we usually do it with hand-me down equipment. Also, we train 2 days a month and 2 weeks a year, and when it comes to performance in combat.. we (at least in Signal) outperformed our active componet brothers.

Another interesting fact... 50% of all forces in Iraq are.... NATIONAL GUARD!!!

So please do not make it sound like the National Guard is there for the Broke dicks.

I could go on all day ....

PS, it may not have been your intent to bash the Guard.. but it came across that way

The Nat'l Guard is definitely putting forth tremendous effort in the Middle East. Whether for good or ill, they're in the thick of it, and joining up is no guarantee of stateside conflict avoidance as it could be in the past.

Broke Dicks?
My name isn't Richard!!!!
I remember in the 1st Gulf War, when we had some influx of IRR Inactive Ready Reserves come into my company. These were guys that had fulfilled the active portion of thier deal with the Army, but were put in IRR status to fulfill the terms of thier contract.
Every Enlistment is for 7 years in the Army. Sometimes there is an Active portion, and an Inactive portion. My Active portion was 5 years, and 2 years IRR.
If there had been a conflict in the last 2 years of my enlistment, I woulda been called in and put back in Active status.
The IRR guys were out of shape, undisciplined, and not very happy to be in the desert.
Some of them shaped up pretty fast, and decided to Re-up.
But the National Guard guys I met, were always in top shape, although thier equipment was Hand-me-downs from the Regular Army. They always struck me as Professional Soldiers, just with better hours when they were on inactive status. :D

I was not calling you a Broke dick. But you got my point. I will admit, that 10 years ago, we use to pop the tap on a Keg after Drill, but those days are LOOOONG gone.

I was not calling you a Broke dick. But you got my point. I will admit, that 10 years ago, we use to pop the tap on a Keg after Drill, but those days are LOOOONG gone.

LOL it's cool, now you know who really has it made? Those Air Force Pukes.
I would have loved to enlisted Air Force. Those guys have it made. LOL