http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/01/russia.school/index.html

It's a fucking SCHOOL for fuck's sake, those children have nothing to do with their bullshit demands.

Not the first time it's happened.
Man... Chechnya is just waiting to blow.

Rock and a hard place, most definitely.


Give in to this groups demands, and no school will be safe again. Do not give in, or attempt rescue of hostages, and you have lots and lots of bloodshed, much of it innocent and resulting in a whole lot of second-guessing and finger-pointing.

Sad to say, but the muslim extremists behind a majority of the most atrocious terrorist acts are going to eventually find themselves facing another crusade, and that will be a crime against all those muslims who are as revolted by their acts as the rest os us.

Yeah, the Chechen Muslims aren't exactly making my heart cry out for their situation when they pull these kinds of stunts. They are a low breed.

i haven't read much into this issue but are those using the hostages muslim?

i haven't read much into this issue but are those using the hostages muslim?
This was all that was listed in the article on who was doing it:


"Two civilian planes were crashed by terrorist gangs that had links to the al Qaeda," Putin said from the Black Sea resort city of Sochi.
"Separatists in northern Caucasus are acting not in line with the Chechen people, but for their own filthy interests. They have links with international terrorism

I am worried about this one. They kill those kids I hope the US gets involved some how. Its terrorism and if G bush wants my vote he better be fighting it there too.

<Kissinger>Carpet Bombing is the only solution</Kissinger>.

I don't know enough of the details to have formed a firm opinion about Chechen independence, but the scum who are resorting to these acts are pretty rapidly putting my sympathies with the Russians. The time is rapidly approaching when nations will have to overcome other differences to band together to stamp out this organized thuggery once and for all.

Plenty of nations have achieved independence without ever seizing school children (or even non-combatant adults) as hostages. Anyone who relies on such tactics will never foster a free society even if they do get independence. It would be just another totalitarian state run by fucking criminals or militant religious fanatics.

The US has already offered it's help in dealing with this area of Terrorists. Right now they want to deal with it internally. But to be honest I think a global united front is the only way to go.

I think Talid's quote is scary but likely the only final way to go. But it'll create others ;(

I'm thinking more along of the lines of a Ragnorak (spellling) let God sort it out...

Fandros

The Russians really can't give in. Like Bylimet said, if they cave then the door is opened up for more crazies to hold schools hostage. Similar to the French and their headscarf law. If they cave to demands now....the floodgates are opened.

I do sincerely hope they are able to end both without anyone getting killed. Not very likely though in either case.

To sum up the region's history, Chechnya is basically a semi-tribal, resourceless mountain region which subsisted to a large extent through raiding neighboring lands/trade routes. It was absorbed by Russia at some point. In World War 2, the Chechens attempted to side with Germany; Stalin didn't take kindly to this and transported virtually the whole Chechen population to Kazakhstan under hellish conditions, and many of them perished. They got to move back at some point after the war.

Chechnya tried to secede when the Soviet Union shattered. Russia objected. I'm not 100% sure of the events of the timeframe in the nineties, so in no particular order:

-Russian ground forces got mauled in Chechnya. Draftees don't stand up too well against guerrillas on their home terrain.
-A bunch of terrorist attacks took place in Russia, mainly in parts of the Caucasus near Chechnya (Dagestan, North Ingushetia, etc) but also in major cities. Many kidnappings for ransom also originated there.
-Chechnya got carpetbombed, to little avail. Wasn't terribly much there in the first place.
-Hundreds of thousands of Chechens migrated into other parts of Russia. Most are just plain peaceful refugees, but there has been a huge element of Chechen gangs and organized crime in Moscow as of the late nineties.

Both sides are invariably screwed, as far as I can see. There is no solution that wouldn't be way worse than the problem in the first place.

Russia must now come aboard with America in the War on Terror. They must crush the Islamic Fundimentalists. I have a seven year old daughter. If this situation happened to her I would expect no less from my government. A resumption of the Crusades is an excellent start.

What exactly do you mean by a resumption of the Crusades?

The problem with terrorism is that iron grip tactics and collective punishment is only making more terrorists. Just take a look at Israel....

Though hunting down and 'executing' their leaders and organisers on the spot without trial is probably the right way to go. The Judge Dread kinda way like the Israeli millitary been doing in the past 6 months.

If you have a terrorist leader parading on the streets in front of TV cameras and making open threats then you don't need a fair trial imho.

I wonder if genocide is the only real solution to the conflicts of modern man. We know a nuke on chechnya would fix that problem since there'd be no more geographic region to hold on to, and then the terrorist cells could be hunted down one by one.

It makes me sad to see people devastate and halt the progress of humanity. It makes me pissed off when naked force is the only thing that the fuckers will listen to.

'I don't know enough of the details to have formed a firm opinion about Chechen independence, but the scum who are resorting to these acts are pretty rapidly putting my sympathies with the Russians'

- yeah, my sympathies cry out to a country who slaughtered thousands upon thousands of Chechens, and didn't stop, didn't allow them independence, and kept on slaughtering them, ruined their country, and crushed them utterly.

My heart BLEEDS for the Russians.

Halo.
Russian civilians != the Russian gvnmnt.

Halo, thats fucked up on a number of levels.
You are dangerously close to justification of the would be murderers.

From inside the school, the militants sent out a list of demands and threatened that if police intervened, they would kill 50 children for every hostage-taker killed and 20 children for every hostage-taker injured, Kazbek Dzantiyev, head of the North Ossetia region's Interior Ministry, was quoted as telling the ITAR-Tass news agency. Dzugayev estimated there were between 15 and 24 militants

http://www.abcnj.org/ministries/images/russian-children.jpg

wtf did the kids ever do to anyone? There are some things that are out of bounds and just cross the line into inhuman depravity. The point you try to make is lost in the overwhelming immorality of the act.

This is just.... sick

Terrorists are cowards because of their tactics they use, but to hold children in such a manner shows they are even worse. I don't even think I have words to describe the situation or them. I just pray for the families and children, chances are these kids are going to be scarred for life anyway. :(

L2 hit it right. Thats the kind of moral equivalency that just makes my stomach turn. There is simply no reason to take children hostages. Show some balls, attack a government building, military guard outpost or something.

'I don't know enough of the details to have formed a firm opinion about Chechen independence, but the scum who are resorting to these acts are pretty rapidly putting my sympathies with the Russians'

- yeah, my sympathies cry out to a country who slaughtered thousands upon thousands of Chechens, and didn't stop, didn't allow them independence, and kept on slaughtering them, ruined their country, and crushed them utterly.

My heart BLEEDS for the Russians.

Was that the *old* USSR gov't or the new, gentler Russian govt after the USA won the Cold War....?

Halo-
Try adding the second paragraph of my post and you will see why I am swinging towards the Russian view.

Yeah Stalin was a bastard. He's also been dead for fifty years. The more recent fighting after the collapse of the USSR was not started by the Russians, they just were more ruthless than we westerners like. Maybe they had reason?

To put it in perspective, suppose a group of people wanting independence for Scotland (or Northern Ireland or even Wales) seized a school full of English kids and demanded independence for Scotland or Northern Ireland or else they were going to kill them all. Would your sympathies lie with them? After all, England oppressed them for centuries too.

The new one Bise. It wasn't even ten years ago.

Ok, calm the hell down, jesus.

I didn't mean the fucking school kids.
But to believe any sympathy should be given to Russia in the context of this conflict is just as arseholish as saying "go Chechen rebels go!"

Here's a better, more contemporary example Gulor. China lays waste to Taiwan and kills tens of thousands and shatters the country, and then a group of Taiwan rebels blows up a Chinese school bus.
It would fucking suck - but I wouldn't for one moment sympathize with the Chinese cause.

There is a difference between sympathizing with a cause and sympathizing with a people. I suspect that is where we disagree.

No cause justifies what the hostage takers are doing. I never saw Russians intentionally target children to "further their cause". If they want international support for Chechen independence, they just shot themselves in the foot because now people are going to equate their cause with the scum threatening children as a deliberate target. Such people would be far worse than the Russians ever were should they succeed and come to power.

*added thought* Taking your example, I would sympathize with the Chinese, (not their cause). When a group resorts to killing civilians of no military value as a deliberate target, they lose any sympathy for them I may have had.

Sort of like dropping atomic bombs? *cough* Anywho...

Yes I imagine that's where we got our wires crossed.
I watched a great documentary on the Chechen situation the other night. Really terrible some of the stuff the Russians did.

Please don't make L2 unload his atomic bomb posts again. The internet can only take so much.

Well, certainly children were killed in the A bomb attacks, but they weren't the target per se. There *were* military bases/war industries in both bombed cities. Dresden would be a better example for your purposes, and yes Dresden should never have happened. The citizens of Dresden *do* have my sympathy, not the American and British bombers who flattened it.

With regards to Chechnya, its just another civil war where atrocities happen on *both* sides. It happened in our civil war, it happened in yours. You will find no lack of them done by Chechnyans either.

Regarding a "New Crusades", that is precisely what the islamic terrorists want. How else can they come to power than to provide a unifying outside threat (i.e. "crusaders")? Those idiots think they would win any such war and are just itching to start it up. Remember, it is only a small fraction of the muslim population caught up in the bullshit. Weed that portion out certainly, but there is no justification to attack islam as a whole.

'Please don't make L2 unload his atomic bomb posts again. The internet can only take so much.'

- They are an atomic blast unto themselves :D
Blame Gulor for tempting the conversation though :P

- yeah, my sympathies cry out to a country who slaughtered thousands upon thousands of Chechens, and didn't stop, didn't allow them independence, and kept on slaughtering them, ruined their country, and crushed them utterly.

My heart BLEEDS for the Russians.
So under your way of thinking Halo your ok with maybe 15 to 16 Jewish terrorists nuking some German elementary schools right? I mean fair is fair if we are going to punish the innocent for the past acts of a government.

Rigin

'So under your way of thinking Halo your ok with maybe 15 to 16 Jewish terrorists nuking some German elementary schools right? I mean fair is fair if we are going to punish the innocent for the past acts of a government.'

- Yes, that's exactly what I meant.


Twat.

Jesus christ... Russian's stormed the school, blowing holes in the side of the walls.
Though it hardly suprises me. Their past record in dealing with hostage situations hasn't been...cautious. I think the death count is 10 atm, but the kidnappers are on the loose in the town (besides 2, who blew themselves up).

What a fucking nightmare.

By doing so they make it known to kidnapers they will not work out deals with them. Tough situation for sure but I think they did it the right way. No food, no water, no medical attention was being allowed in. Time was of the essence. Anyone who targets children with firearms has no intentions of working things out.


Ibudin

I just read a report that has the Russians saying they had no plans to storm the school.According to the report, a large group of children (some were bloody) were running away from the school and the terrorists starting firing on them. I guess the Russians figured at that point they may as well go in since they are shooting at the kids anyways.

This is all from MSNBC though, so who knows. Messed up no matter how it happened. :(

How the FUCK did the terrorists escape though?

Jesus christ... Russian's stormed the school, blowing holes in the side of the walls.
Is it a fact that the task force used explosive ordinance to gain entrance? I was under the impression that some of the terrorist folk detonated themselves.

BBC was saying that the sound of gun fire inside caused the Russian's to blow holes in walls for the hostages to escape through.
Subsequently, it would seem the kidnappers found the big holes quite useful too.

Jesus fucking christ... over a 100 dead.

Nothing to do with russian forces this time. 2 of the dudes blew themself up, hostages thought it was special force going in so they started to try and run out and the commando started shooting at them...

Special force riposted to try and protect hostages and some guys got away in the chaos of blood and smoke. death count is close to 200 atm.... Really a sad day, nothing escuse what those guys did. Any sympathy you can have for the chetchen has no meaning when you see that kind of stuff.

Not sure what to even think. So terrible.

The latest report I saw on CNN was being reported by what sounded to be a british correspondent at the scene, and the notation was made that about half of the dead terrorists appeared to be Arabic; not sure if they were going by identification or just making generalized comments based on appearances.

Also, they were making sure to emphasize that the Russians did not start any shooting until two or three of the suspects ran out of the building chasing escaping children and shooting at them; at that point it was reaction time, and the best way to react in that situation is to try to save as many lives as possible which means killing the suspects as fast as possible.

There was also a video piece showing that the roof of the gym area had been wired to blow and collapse, which is where most of the dead hostages were found after the fire was put out.

It is beyond my comprehension how they could possibly expect to come out of this situation with any support from rational, civilized people. I fear for the next school to face these madmen, for it will surely happen again now that they have opened the door.

latest report is of 200 dead. What kind of sick fuck kidnaps and kills children :( Hard to sympathize with anyones cause when they do shit like this

I wonder what the UN's opinion is on this issue, someone ought to consult them.

The problem with terrorism is that iron grip tactics and collective punishment is only making more terrorists. Just take a look at Israel....

I am not going to start debating the "Isreal" statement..... but what is the other option? bargain with them? Change their views on their religon? This is war and really should be treated as such.

How the FUCK did the terrorists escape though?
The Russians have a long history of botching this kind of situation.... They just aren't trained like the elite USA, Isreali and Great Britain....

I do admire the attempt and they probably did the best they could.

I heard the same report Morogon posted. They were in a no-win situation.

However, now the rebels are going to lose alot of public support.... they shot themselves in the ass on this one.

Aye, definately Bise.

Just look at the scene, there were civilians, family members, random people all surrounding the school, soldiers mixed in with parents etc.
It looked like an utter failure of anti-terrorism tactics. Russia definately did not seem like they had the experience or training to deal with this kind of situation.

There should have been *no* escape for the hostage-takers in that school.

As unfortunate as it is, the only methods barbaric people seem to understand is to be more barbaric than they themselves.

The Russians have three of the suspects in custody. Taking a page from the protagonist in "The Usual Suspects", they could find out everything about all of the hostage-takers families, friends, business associates, etc., and wipe them all out in the same manner as the hostage-takers were going to kill the innocent hostages. This would serve both as punishment to the hostage-takers in this case, and also would serve notice to the remaining terrorist people that Russia will no longer suffer such tragedy without extreme payback.

Extreme? Barbaric? Sickening? Yes, yes, and yes again. BUT, if you are not willing to be more ruthless than those who would take from you than you must be prepared to be victimized over and over.

If these terrorists are allowed to continue than none of our children will ever be safe.:(

From what I understand, quite of the bit of the Russian military doesn't even get paid..in any case, perhaps Putin will be more inclined to join the fight now that it's been taken to his doorstep.

I have a feeling that Putin will only be interested in quelling local terrorism and not get involved in the worldwide scene as far as fighting goes. The people involved weren't all from that part of the world, though. We'll see what he ends up doing.

After reading Putin's statement about going after terrorist bases anywhere in the world, I predict he will start with attacks in parts of Georgia (the country, not the state) as well as the obvious attacks in Chechnya. If he is really serious, he could mean attacks in the tribal areas of Pakistan as well though I doubt he will resort to that for quite a while. Things are going to get even uglier in that part of the world before it gets better.

If anyone has moaned, bitched, or complained about US methods. Get a load of the Russians. Mass Death, end of story. Unfortunately there are no russians here for the european members to get into a nonsensical argument with and carry the thread to over a thousand count of half-screen sized posts full of quotes and angry one-liners.

The Russians were clearly unprepared to handle such a crisis, as evidenced by their complete lack of control over the perimeter of the area. One would expect, given all the wonderful television programming/movies/news reports available to us to base opinions on, that the first order of business would be securing a perimeter to keep the terrorists contained, and unwanted distractions (parents/families) out, so that absolute control of the area surrounding the school could be maintained. That did not happen.

The mass deaths that resulted from this situation can not be placed at the Russians feet tho, IMO, because they were in a reactionary stance and were forced to take action after the escaping children were being shot in the back by the terrorists. And, the explosions heard occurring inside the school added to the haste needed to try to kill the terrorists as fast as possible to minimize the deaths of the hostages.

As we have now seen from the videotape made by the terrorists and recovered from the school, the gym area used as the main holding area was wired to cause maximum damage to the hostages should anything go wrong, and the Russian forces could have no way of knowing that prior to the assault.

It is an extremely sad situation, that once started could not end in any "good" fashion. Once they killed the initial victims, it became only a question of how many more were going to die. Any compromise would be an invitation to take more schools hostage. But the families of the dead cannot be expected to accept that at a time like this; I don't know that any of us could.

We are already seeing the people crying out "the government did not protect us", much the same as we have heard similar cries in this country following Sept 11. The sad fact is that the acts of madmen CANNOT be protected against completely. Many are prevented with good intelligence and sacrifice, but there will always be some that slip through.

And I have rambled again.....this tragedy is just hard to let go of, I guess.

The sad fact is that the acts of madmen CANNOT be protected against completely. Many are prevented with good intelligence and sacrifice, but there will always be some that slip through.
I work for a school district and we had a similar conversation about security in our district. A lot of focus was put on security in schools after the Columbine incident...maybe a little more since Columbine HS is across town from us. Though some good, common sense, security measures came out of the aftermath of Columbine (locking all but the main doors, monitors at the main doors identifying all visitors, and increased video surviellance) the conclusion we have come to is the same. None of these measures would stop a Columbine or a siege like the one that occurred in Russia. These type of attacks can only be stopped before they begin. Short of making every school an armed camp nothing at the school itself can defend against a planned military style terroist attack.

Interesting background info here:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20040908/RUSSINGUSH08/International/Idx

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/europe/09/09/siege.boy.ap/story.sitting.ap.jpg

Very disturbing picture and the more I read about this crazier it gets. Hell the leader of these terrorists even shot a few of thier own who were uncomfortable with taking children as prisoners.

The boy in this picture lived.


Ibudin

Hey, did everyone catch the ringing condemnation of these terrorists by Islamic groups around the world?

Yeah, I missed it too. Dunno how that happened.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3632462.stm

At least some folks are condemning it...

Not nearly enough though. Interesting article and interesting letters below it.

We are already seeing the people crying out "the government did not protect us", much the same as we have heard similar cries in this country following Sept 11.Welcome back, Commrade, for our reactionary hardline communist dicatorial government has found tragic events to be all that is required as an excuse for us once again fight the capitalist filth. We missed you, oh mighty Hammer and Sickle who kept us safe and strong under an umbella of oppression! Oh wait, all the so called "capitalist" nations are now fascist or socialists. Why didn't we get the damn memo???? Oh well. At least Tom Clancy won't have writer's block anymore now that we are back in business.

Though some good, common sense, security measures came out of the aftermath of Columbine (locking all but the main doors, monitors at the main doors identifying all visitors, and increased video surviellance)

Sooo..how does your town's fire marshal feel about the school locking up those exits, since it is illegal to do so?

They wouldn't have to charge in at gunpoint, your "good, common sense, security measures" have made it possible to simply set a few well placed fires and turn the schools into kiddie infernos - give your community a pat on the back for their common sense(if they did what you claim at least).

give your community a pat on the back

Fire doors are are locked from the outside, not the inside. They've done nothing but lock the public doors that do not need to be open after hours.

That's not what he said, he said they locked everything but the main doors. Fire doors are already locked from the outside, but can be opened from the inside to let people in.

Ailwon's explanation seems to imply that they stopped that possibility by locking them from inside use as well.

Furthermore, we can assume that he means during school because..really..what would be the point of letting visitors in at all if there was no one else there? Who would they be visiting?

Hmm aren't main doors fire doors as well? Or all doors are fire doors? Not sure how it works and what is a fire door and what isn't, but I assumed reading Ailwon post that those new locked doors weren't locked, at all. (from inside or outside)

Ailwon's explanation seems to imply that they stopped that possibility by locking them from inside use as well. My god Cristo...of course they are not locked to the inside...

We chain the little #$%@ers to their desks!!:rolleyes:

Furthermore, we can assume that he means during school because..really..what would be the point of letting visitors in at all if there was no one else there? Who would they be visiting? .....and no all doors are locked , TO THE OUTSIDE, after schools hours. Want a freaking detailed explanation of our door locking procedures?

http://www.ccsd.k12.co.us/dist_info/vol1policies/vol1policiespdf/ECA.pdf

Fire doors were already locked from the outside..they're made that way..

How the fuck is any of what you talked about a security improvement by the way, if all of the new "common sense" measures take place after hours?

Who exactly is being protected when there isn't anyone in the school?

More importantly, did the school normally leave everything unlocked after hours previously?

OK, now just reading from the info you linked


During regular school hours, flow of traffic into and out of buildings shall be closely monitored and maybe limited to certain doors.


Now just from that we can tell that they may lock fire doors during school hours(despite what you said) to restrict access to the main doors.

In any case, I don't see any new and improved safety measures (other than "maybe" locking the fire doors) in there unless your school district regularly left its buildings unlocked after hours.

Cristo :rolleyes:

I will spell it out for you.....since common sense escapes you.

Before Columbine

Most school doors were open, in and out. Non-students were not monitored as closely.


AFTER Columbine

All outside doors locked (from the outside :rolleyes:), except the main doors which are monitored by school staff. Al visitors are asked about their business in the school, must sign in, and wear a name tag or ID.

Now just from that we can tell that they may lock fire doors during school hours(despite what you said) to restrict access to the main doors. I mentioned nothing about fire doors.....in every building I've been in 2 two distrcits I have never seen a door locked on the inside....never.

Who exactly is being protected when there isn't anyone in the school? Duh...the school? :rolleyes:

I thought the schools here were more locked down as a response to Columbine, not 9/11. I could be wrong though.....

Duh...the school?
Great, I gotcha..so the major improvement your community came up with was to keep the school itself safe after hours, not the students while it is in session.

"common sense" at its best

Great, I gotcha..so the major improvement your community came up with was to keep the school itself safe after hours, not the students while it is in session.

Please read a bit my over argumentative friend....

Before Columbine....schools not locked to the outside during school hours. visitors not necessarily identified, signed-in, or screened.

After Columbine.....all entrances except main doors locked, to the outside..unless monitored by school personel. All visitors identified, signed-in and screened at any entrance unlocked during school hours.

There, I've spelled it out for you again....take a second...calm yourself...read it again...think a bit (I know it's hard)....there...Got it?

So basically your school district was just incredibly backwards and downright stupid before Columbine then?

Why did it take that before they adopted SOP for virtually every other school in the country?

Why did it take a meeting to figure out those measures were a good idea?

Finally, how exactly do you place the phrase "common sense" in the same sentence with your school district given all of the above?

Crist0,
What exactly is your point here? That you think school's shouldn't be locked? Or are you just trying to take up any opposite point as Ailwon? Because you are really floundering on this one.

Why did it take that before they adopted SOP for virtually every other school in the country?

You can back this statement up, I assume? I would guess that standard operating procedure for virtually every other school, especially suburban schools like Littleton, did not involve locking the place down like a fortress. It certainly wasn't at the inner city high school I attended. There was nothing backwards or downright stupid about it. Expecting people to react to something before it happens when there is absolutely zero history on which to base judgement is downright stupid.

It was the common sense reaction to a tragedy to help prevent future tragedies. It appears to be your position that they should have been clairvoyant. Figures you would take the position that it wasn't the shooters that were at fault, but the school officials that allowed them access to the school they attended.

Fil

So basically your school district was just incredibly backwards and downright stupid before Columbine then? Not sure about the one I'm in...the one I was in, that has Columbine in it...was, IMO, too lax about security.

Why did it take that before they adopted SOP for virtually every other school in the country? #1 It wasn't SOP for virtually every other school in the country....I visited several dozen school districts in a couple states, and what I talked about was not enforced, if it even was policy. They were much more lax before Columbine.

#2 It took Columbine because IMO, the people that ran that district, at the time, were incompetant....about security and a whole lot of other things. I didn't run the district....I left for a better one.

Why did it take a meeting to figure out those measures were a good idea? Don't know if it did...I never mentioned a meeting...wasn't involved in meetings.

Finally, how exactly do you place the phrase "common sense" in the same sentence with your school district given all of the above?
I don't know what the policies were in this district before Columbine....I do know that a new policy was written after (only by the date)....and they are strictly enforced. I do know that my old district was too lax about security...and either adopted a new policy or strictly enforced some good common sense policies after. That SCHOOL DISTRICT paid much more attention to security after Columbine...by enforcing and/or creating good COMMON SENSE policies.

My point Cristo is that it was good that schools focused, re-wrote policies, or enforced existing security policies better after Columbine. It made kids safer. This is a good thing...do you not agree?

What exactly is your point here?
Try to follow along Zippy.

Ailwon's post lauding the common sense steps his school has taken is laughable..at best.


You can back this statement up, I assume?

I didn't think I needed to back up that fire doors are always locked from the outside(here's your clue, they don't even have a way to open them from the outside) and that the vast majority of schools require visitors to check in. It was that way in my schools as I was growing up, and that was a) a longass time ago and b) definately not a school district on the cutting edge.

I have never, ever seen a school district that didn't take these most basic steps.

Of course, I suppose I could just write all of that off as it being school districts and regions filled with people of extraordinary genius(after all, *I* did come from there).


It was the common sense reaction to a tragedy to help prevent future tragedies. It appears to be your position that they should have been clairvoyant. Figures you would take the position that it wasn't the shooters that were at fault, but the school officials that allowed them access to the school they attended.

Close, it would have been common sense if it had been an action(instead of a reaction) that was taken say...50 years ago. It's also very true that the school shares some responsibility for what happened because they were so inept that they failed to do basic things.

Does that clear it all up or do you need smaller words Filatil?


Not sure about the one I'm in...the one I was in, that has Columbine in it...was, IMO, too lax about security.

Ok, so even you, as a kid, could see the flaws with how they were running things..so it was a backwards school district. The people of said school district should have cleaned house and put responsible people in charge a ways beforehand that wouldn't need to form a committee to figure out something a child could see.


I never mentioned a meeting

Let me refresh your memory:


I work for a school district and we had a similar conversation about security in our district.

Now was all the refocusing a good thing?

Yes

Was it common sense by any definition?

No, it was far too late for that.

Again, every school district I have come into contact with growing up had(and enforced) these sort of policies literally decades ago, and all of the districts I have come across since have done the same.

Ailwon's post lauding the common sense steps his school has taken is laughable..at best. No, you taking any tiny little thing out anyone's(that you don't like personally) post, then arguing about it with no real point, is laughable.

I have never, ever seen a school district that didn't take these most basic steps. You are not well traveled to school districts then my friend.

Ok, so even you, as a kid, could see the flaws with how they were running things Never said anything about when I was a kid.....didn't attend schools in that district.

form a committee Never said anything about a commitee...and the sup and a lot of her staff resigned.

a child could see.You started from a mistaken assumption.

I work for a school district and we had a similar conversation about security in our district. It was me (who has nothing to do with security) and a couple other guys in IS talking at lunch...and it was about the Russian School situation and what could be done.:rolleyes:

Again, every school district I have come into contact with growing up had(and enforced) these sort of policies literally decades ago, and all of the districts I have come across since have done the same. BULLSHIT

No, you taking any tiny little thing out anyone's(that you don't like personally) post
Clue Time:

It was the subject of your entire post, and I don't really care one way or the other for you..I just disagreed with said post.


You are not well traveled to school districts then my friend
Well, none outside of geniusland I guess.


It was me (who has nothing to do with security) and a couple other guys in IS talking at lunch
When you relate that "I work for a school district and we had a conversation about security in our district" you are saying that we, the school district, had a conversation about security...


BULLSHIT
How the fuck do you know?

Were you there growing up with me? did you follow me to every school I've been to since my formative years?

Just because the schools you are familiar with weren't bright enough to keep track of visitors, etc doesn't mean all others share the same faults.

I grew up and went to school in some of the districts Ailwon is talking about. At that time such measures weren't dreamed of because they weren't necessary. When I was a kid, we didn't even have to lock our doors at night. Things change, faster in some area than others I suppose. I know in this area, security was not tight before Columbine, but then nothing quite like Columbine had ever happened before. It was enough that teachers and the principals kept an eye on things because kids weren't packing heat to school. I miss the old days.

Locking doors and installing metal detectors might help against a student trying to kill his classmates but is utterly useless against a coordinated attack like what happened in Russia. No Kalishnakov wielding, explosives toting terrorist is going to let a simple fire door stop his entry.

Clue Time: No...the point of my post was that after Columbine the schools I have had contact with, have concetrated more on security....and that this was a good thing. DO YOU DISAGREE? What you focused on was the doors being locked to the inside in fire....a very stupid assumption.

Sooo..how does your town's fire marshal feel about the school locking up those exits, since it is illegal to do so?
...and yes Cristo, this is Nitpicking and pointless, and that's why I gave you bad rep...thanks for returning the favor ;') . This rep thing is kinda pointless too :').

Well, none outside of geniusland I guess.

....not many any ways :rolleyes:

I work for a school district and we had a similar conversation about security in our district.I can see how you misunderstood.

Were you there growing up with me? Let me get this straight...when you were ten you took the time notice what doors were locked, whether all visitors were had IDs, etc. AND you visited all the schools in your district and made notes on their security measures as well. Sorry friend, not buying your bullshit for a second.