Bush gave his speech marking the 5th anniversary of the beginning of hostilities in Iraq, saying he promised victory five years ago, and that we will emerge from Iraq with victory.

Has he said at any point during the past five years how victory will be determined?

What will be used as measurement that we won?

What are the goals that we went into Iraq with that will allow us to pronounce ourselves the victors when they are attained?

This has been hashed over again and again, and now on the 5th anniversary, I am still waiting to get some kind of realistic response. And Bush still has not offered one. Trillions of dollars spent, thousands of lives lost, tens of thousands of lives forever changed, and still no concrete statement available that will say "This is what equates victory".

Why would anyone that doesn't work in politics care what he has to say about anything?

Nobody who works in politics even cares what he has to say anymore.

And that nobody cares I guess will be the justification for continuing to spend monies and lives on tilting at windmills.

We can't leave Iraq. Bin Laden might point at us and laugh and call us names.

It all depends on what goals you're measuring success against.

1)The overwhelming reason we started this "war" was to make Saddam was not able to use WMDs against our allies or pass those WMDs to terrorists.

By that measure we have already lost.

2)Since that goal was not realized, the goal became to oust a tyrant that was abusing his country.

That has failed, Bush is still in office....wait a sec. Nope that succeeded, Saddam is out of office.

3) coupled with the above goal was to improve the quality of life in Iraq by removing said tyrant.

That has been, by any measure, a dismal failure for the majority of the country. I will say, however, that the quality of life for Kurds has been improved for the most part.

4)Another goal was to form another stable democracy in the Mid-East to serve as a model for other countries in the region.

The government is highly unstable and, IMO, incapable of standing on it's own without the might of the US military. I don't see much of a chance of our style of democracy working there at this time...even after 5 years.

I agree with McCain, in a way. We will need to maintain a large presence there for decades to maintain this government, because the minute we leave it will collapse. I believe that Al queda will be there in force as long as we are there..as we leave so will they, at least their attacks will decrease, but, the sectarian violence will more than fill the void as the Shiites take control and the Sunnis resist.

There is no "victory" only how much in lives and money we are willing to waste before our withdrawl.

3) coupled with the above goal was to improve the quality of life in Iraq by removing said tyrant.

That has been, by any measure, a dismal failure for the majority of the country. I will say, however, that the quality of life for Kurds has been improved for the most part.



i dont want to rain on your parade, but the kurds have been very autonomous since you guys created the no fly zone, effectively fencing saddam in.

We can't leave Iraq. Bin Laden might point at us and laugh and call us names.


I think he already does that.

I agree with McCain, in a way. We will need to maintain a large presence there for decades to maintain this government, because the minute we leave it will collapse. I believe that Al queda will be there in force as long as we are there..as we leave so will they, at least their attacks will decrease, but, the sectarian violence will more than fill the void as the Shiites take control and the Sunnis resist.Al-Qaeda has never been a significant presence in Iraq, despite assertions by Bush and McCain. They've been a very violent presence, given their numbers, but they've been on the receiving end since Zarqawi bit it and since we started supplying Sunni groups with coin and weapons. I don't know that the government will collapse if we depart, though its authority will probably weaken further. Unfortunate, but a predictable consequence of our invasion. The Kurds already do their own thing, more or less, as Wiggo pointed out.