I know that some of you here are sympathetic to Warrior state of affairs. We encourage you to join us in our STAND DOWN by creating a Warrior alt on the 18th.

Read more here:
Cry to Arms! (http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4109)

Inc mass group buff wolf form.

hahahahahhahahhahahahhahahha

That put a highlight to being lit.. Thanks

What's wrong with warriors this time?

EDIT: Fuck. He was serious, sorry :(

They can't hold agro. Which is nothing new because warriors haven't been able to hold agro since Kunark. 8/

Apparently a paladin was used successfully to tank Quarm recently and warriors are demanding to be made the premier tanking class once again so that they don't become completely obsolete.

I can empathize...I just hope they don't arrange for us paladins to get plopped right back into the worthless class we were for so long. I paid my dues begging for groups for hours on end to no avail and I really don't want to go back to that.

I am all for balance...but balance has to be just that, not the situation we had before where every group was a warrior, a cleric, a monk, an enchanter, a rogue and a nuking class.

Count me in for nothing else just to see what happens. My 39 Warr has ceased even being able to even get Ldon groups..

Since kunark?
Fuck, warriors haven't been able to hold aggro since the conception of EQ.

make a shm day is on the 20th.. haven't been able to charm anything since level 29..

shms charm guild leader no more

that s why they all leave once they get gear =/

im in hehe

With a battle cry go forth and that is.....

NERF KNIGHTS!!!!!

A non-warrior tanked the finale of our latest expansion??? Geez :( There is definately something very wrong there.

I bet a cloth class could have tanked Vulak.

As long as they have the hp, anyone can tank quarm. We are talking about the most equiped paladin of EQ tanking quarm not some random schmuck. Any warrior could tank quarm with defensive thats all the difference.

Shamax tanked the boss at the end of our Everfrost LDoN adventure due to both our rogue and tank going LD during the adventure...NERF SHAMAX!

'NERF SHAMAX! '

- I can think of a few ways.

Any warrior could tank quarm with defensive

you don't truly believe this...

I dunno about a cloth caster tanking Vulak being at all possible, but Nilaminea managed to tank a Flurry drake without breaking a sweat.

I say nerf Enchanters! ;)

Im sure level 55 warriors with 5k buffed will do a great job tanking quarm... *cough*

Cookie!!

You sure, I always thought it was 55? double check there :P

What?? :o

i'm sure anterak couldn't tank him /cackle

I do not understand why people are complaining about it anyways. Anyone in the world can tank in exp groups or ldon. I have had rogues tank for my group when i had to take an afk for some reason or another, without problem.

When a potime equipped paladin tanks Bert, who cares? Bert is a target 2 tiers down. As far as quarm goes, i must agree with kinu... that is the best equipped paladin in the game. if you are in that guild and can get the extra aggro control from a paladin over a warrior, congraulations to you and your guild, if having a paladin tank for you makes it easier for you, you deserve to be able to use the paladin because you equipped him.

/yawn, i could spend a lifetime listening to warriors complain. Just remember the grass is always greener on the other side. I am a paladin main, and my alt is a warrior.

I do not understand why people are complaining about it anyways. Anyone in the world can tank in exp groups or ldon. I have had rogues tank for my group when i had to take an afk for some reason or another, without problem.

So then, you believe warriors are completely balanced and need no changes made to them at all?

The stand down isn't specifically about a single exceptional paladin tanking Quarm. Its about 10 months of :

We're still planning to take a look at improving the damage capabilities of melee classes, as they've fallen behind their magic-using counterparts at the very high end of the game. Finding the proper solutions for this situation will take some time.

Go back and read the future plans section of the EQ Live site. Check the archives. The way its worded, and despite some recent posts by Absor to the contrary, Sony hasn't even started looking at melee balance and it isn't a problem just at "the very high end".

edit: stupid eztags

I read what i could of the warrior complaints before i started to nod off...

Most of what they were complaining about is the HP similarity between warriors and knights. They rarely mentioned dps issues, etc. As far as HP issues go, giving warriors an extra 2 k hp at 65 would not significantly affect their desirability. They, as well as knights, have more hp than ever would be needed for exp groups. On raids, they are still the desired class for BOSS (boss defined as the hardest mobs killable by your guild) mobs due to defensive (and the hp gap, etc).

In the vast majority of the post on the warrior forrums, they are arguing the wrong points. Warriors don't need more hp. Warriors need more consistant aggro. But now, warriors can add anger effects to their weapons, knights can not. Consider that one step done by VI to fix your aggro problems.


The imballence isn't between the knights and warriors, it is between the melee's and casters.


Two ways to look at the melee vs caster arguement:

1. Yes, VI needs to work on rebalencing melees in respect to casters (i would argue that monks and rogues should be the first class examined)

2. Class roles are changing, as they always have changed. Find a niche for yourself. Make yourself in demand for being an excelent player in that niche. Having accomplished that, you won't need to worry about what VI does to your class. I made it through kunark with all of the problems that paladins had on the virtue of being an excelent paladin (atleast at that time. I am too subjective to evaluate my current performance).


I choose to believe that choice 2 is the more accurate choice.


The "tank market" is is no different from 'the job market.' If the quanity of paladins, shadowknights, and warriors on the server is excessive enough that their is not a sufficient demand for all of us tanks, you must distinguish yourself. You must play the class better than everyone else, and create a demand for yourself. If you do this, you will always be welcome.

Compare the tank situation to the computer programmer situation these days, where there are more computer programmers and computer science majors graduating than there are job positions for them. Either become good enough that you are desired, or do somethign different... (there is always a demand for good math teachers.)


There is always room for another GOOD lawyer.
Dammur

The "tank market" is is no different from 'the job market.' If the quanity of paladins, shadowknights, and warriors on the server is excessive enough that their is not a sufficient demand for all of us tanks, you must distinguish yourself. You must play the class better than everyone else, and create a demand for yourself. If you do this, you will always be welcome.

I enjoy pie-in-the-sky observations. They taste much better than bitter reality.

I can't say whether I'm a good tank or not. That judgement can only come from the people I group with. Oh wait! Warriors can't get a group because the perception of a growing number of players is that warriors can't get the job done. Its not just a matter of a few hps, its a matter of the enormous utility increase paladins and shadowknights have gained since the release of Velious while warriors have stagnated because "you get /disc defensive, you don't need anything else ya greedy twit!"

Compare the tank situation to the computer programmer situation these days, where there are more computer programmers and computer science majors graduating than there are job positions for them. Either become good enough that you are desired, or do somethign different... (there is always a demand for good math teachers.)

This analogy almost works...almost. Except that warriors gave up an opportunity to have a spell book and additional utility to be in the niche we are in. We can't do anything different because we aren't designed to do anything different.

Now, i'm not one to group with strangers most days anyway. I'd rather group in guild than roll the dice on a pick up group. But its gotten to the point where, when I do group with strangers, there is always that lingering feeling that its out of pity.

Kinda like that time you got laid and knew in your heart she just felt sorry for you.

This also isn't about asking for nerfs to knights. Only the very narrow-minded warriors are screaming "Nerf em all!"

Just because a pally could do Quarm doesnt make warriors obsolete. Thats like saying if a a druid only CH line did RZ then, clerics are now obsolete or need a bonus. Warriors will always be the best tanks...

im fine with either paladin sk or warrior for MT...shrug.

The problem is that just about every class, save pure melee, HAS the ability to snap agro at a whim. So the real question is why isnt the class defined by the ability to tank unable to generate snap agro.

I totaly agree that pally's/sk's have realy had it bad for a long time, and they totaly have earned their right to shine, but the problem lies in that we now share the same gear for the most part, but yet we dont share the same agro abilities, AND they infact get more out of the same equipment because we (WAR's) have no use for mana and Focus effects

I have been lucky enough to enjoy the benifits of higher level gear, but it makes no sense for my ability to hold agro proc dependent.

The easiest way to fix this IMO would be to change the way taunt works, make it add a set hate ammount similar to an enrageing blow proc. Since everyone else can do it, why cant we =(

I have no complaints about playing a warrior. I don't care if i'm MT or 5th in the lineup, it's a team game and winning is what matters to me.

Oh wait! Warriors can't get a group because the perception of a growing number of players is that warriors can't get the job done.

Sorry Mukaz, I never have a problem finding a group or getting people to join one i've created.

The only warriors who complain are the ones with crap gear or no decent taunt weps.

Warriors are fine, the only possible problem would be stacking on raids.

<laugh>

I must admit to the taking warriors out of pity for groups sometimes. Admittedly there are those warriors that do shine above the rest and I wouldn't give it a moments thought about asking them if they needed a group, but for the rest ... I'm generally afraid to cast a spell in fear I may spoil the balance of things (aggro).

I agree that the problem with warriors right now is getting that aggro back at the snap of their fingers, but maybe that's a problem in the first place. *Normal* experience and dungeon crawl groups are a breeze with this insta aggro from paladins and shadowknights.

Where is the fun!?

The way I see it is those Pallies and Sk's should have their spells toned down. <shrug> Nerfing sucks though, so what does one do to allow warriors aggro at a whim. A quicker taunt ability that is more effective? Perhaps more abilities in lines with monks / rogues that also generate a lot of aggro?

Example: a "Jab" or something that when hits, is a guaranteed 25% slow in attack speed or a "Tendon Slice" that acts as a 20% snare. Beyond things like this, is there much more they can do f?

I suppose if they started adding abilities, Paladins and Shadow Knights would start to get a little bitchy, but as is I think all 3 of these tanks should be capable of tanking all the same mobs regardless. Each one just requires a different tactic or approach to attain the goal.

As for melee balance... casters are supposed to be the definitive method of damage dealing are they not? Granted when I'm doing 1/50th of the damage in roughly the same time period it takes for them to cast a spell I feel a little useless, but what can they do without trivializing a lot of parts of the game? More abilities? More hybrid nukes!?!! (LAME!)

Ten months plus for them to balance melee classes seems fine. Considering people had to wait 2 years for the bloody Diablo 2 1.10 patch we still have another 14 months of patience don't we? :p (Yes, I know, we don't pay monthly fees for no reason).

Am I the only one who thinks the #1 spreaders of the "Warriors suck" rumor is warriors?

The only warriors who complain are the ones with crap gear or no decent taunt weps.

false.

Warrior need some small fixes but certainly not the insane stuff some guys on the steelwarrior keep whining about. Its funny how they tend to totally forget their own AA, paladins don't have a 50% tactical mastery, nor do they have flurry nor do they have a 75% AA stun resist etc etc etc. Beside I don't exactly see davan having any kind of aggro/tanking problem, yet he still whines a ton :p Bandwagon bandwagon !!

They eventually need some hp/ac boost ( albeit still fairly small) and some snap aggro for xp but thats about it. more disciplines and utility could eventually come next expansion but thats not something you fix in a class balancing.

The funny thing in the story tho is all those warriors complaining about having no utility, well you knew what you were going into when you created your toon. Pure melees are one way centric so ya it can be dead boring to play. Not really SOE or hybrids fault tho.

I do not understand why people are complaining about it anyways. Anyone in the world can tank in exp groups or ldon


Well said. Anyone in the world can tank in exp groups, ldon, even time now. So what exactly is the point to a warrior when everyone else can do their job almost as well or even better in a couple of cases?


The funny thing in the story tho is all those warriors complaining about having no utility, well you knew what you were going into when you created your toon.


Well it would be funny..

Except the lack of utility was supposed to be a trade off for their being the best at one thing, and now they aren't even in the running to fill that special niche in the majority of the game. Under these circumstances it isn't all that crazy to be demanding either a fix to make that sacrifice meaningful again or to erase it a bit to counter the loss of power in their supposed specialized role.

the only plausible fix I see being made is giving taunt a fixed hate #, somewhere around 500-800.

But, until paladins and SKs replace warriors for first time targets (I promise you no guild will tank quarm the first time with a hybrid), there's honestly no difference between that paladin tanking quarm and a monk tanking velketor the sorceror. I bet his current hps are roughly equal to what most warriors who first tanked quarm had. As content is killed and farmed, it becomes easier. This isn't because warriors are becoming weaker, its because EQ is inflating faster than the ruble.

The only thing is, tanking used to be exclusively our domain, which resulted in sheer uselessness for paladins and SKs the day kunark was released. Now the gap has closed up a bit, and if people want to maintain the same rough class balance, then warriors need some sort of gimmick.

I personally was in favor of a 9 AA cost replace taunt with a modified AE taunt - less hate, but much more quick to use.

The only valid argument I've seen against doing something like that is that it would make holding aggro not much of a challenge...

Pallimax said: Am I the only one who thinks the #1 spreaders of the "Warriors suck" rumor is warriors?

Go to any class board (Graffes, Druids Grove, Mage Tower, Steel Warrior) and you will hear all about how horrible the class is.

When it comes to class balalnce the grass truly is greener on the other side of the hill. One person on the wizard site said:

Is "Balancing" just a new way of saying "Gimme more powah?"...and I think he was right.

Warriors need to be able to keep aggro better, that is for sure. But to say that they suck is crazy.

I belive a simple fix would work best, DONT nerf Pallys/Sks, like it has been said they have suffered enough, and they now fill valuable roles in groups.

I dont think we need a slow/or a snare(tho neat, it's not what a "warrior" does IMO), i think our taunt needs to: A. refresh faster or B. Produce more hate when activated. (if this would not work, please tell me why, it makes sence to me, but it's also 6am...)

Simple, effective and no one is getting a 2k raise in HPs or some such craziness.


Suesse

Produce more hate when activated.
Taunt doesn't produce hate.

Technically it does.

The simplest solution is to give warriors snap aggro, like the other two tank classes, and the ability to achieve aggro lock, like the other two tank classes.

If any of you thinks that solution would break the game then I submit to you that it's already broken.

It doesn't add a "fixed" amount of hate.

Happy? :b

No, technically it transfers hate, not produces.

If you need a paladin or a sk inorder not to overaggro, does that tell you something about warriors, or does that say something about you not being able to control your aggro?


In a world where everyone and everyone can tank, why am i not afraid of being replaced by rangers as a choice tank, when rangers can get and keep aggro much faster than me? 3 reasons:
1. on aro there seems to be more than enough tanks to go around, i frequently get asked to group just in pickup groups before i even put up a lfg.

2. If ldon groups stop desiring me, i can always start a group up in earth where my increased tanking abilities are appreciated.

3. i can always make a LDON group on a hard setting, where the added hp and ac that i provide can be of benifit.


When i say that warriors should make a niche for themselves if they are having problems... This is what i am talking about. Form a group in a harder place. Move from bot to poe. Move from LDON normal to LDON difficult. Make the added tank abilities actually mean something. Be proactive. Don't wait for a handout from VI.



Or if things seem too bleak...i remember one friend who discontinued his paladin to make a warrior in kunark days. Reactivate your paladin my friend :) /tease

Transfers?
I always went under the assumption that taunt produced the amount of hate via the formula X+1, where X is the top player on the hatelist, not that it WIPED X's hate while it was at it.

The simplest solution is to give warriors snap aggro, like the other two tank classes, and the ability to achieve aggro lock, like the other two tank classes.

If any of you thinks that solution would break the game then I submit to you that it's already broken.

If they do that, they have to get rid of the warrior defensive and evasive abilities. Then the game might even be "fixed"

Transfers?
I always went under the assumption that taunt produced the amount of hate via the formula X+1, where X is the top player on the hatelist, not that it WIPED X's hate while it was at it.

When taunt is successful, this is true. However, when taunt is not successful (most times), it produces -0- hate.

All pure melee need to be fixxed. Warriors are the worst, then monks, then rogues.
A caster has to shell out a few plat for his spells and Boom, instant agro.

A warrior needs X item, X LDoN added proc, and X many AA to keep agro. And they still can taunt as good as a paladin or SK with all of that.

A monk has lost his major role of pulling. What is he now? DPS is a mute point with the weapons that PoP introduced to every class. They can't tank nearly as good as a plate class. So what the F#4@ good are they??

A rogue has been nerfed by trap detecting/disarming spells. They can't pick pockets (or risk being hated). So that leaves DPS only. And even then a ranger can beat them out with a bow that they just bought in the bazaar.

Pure melee are a waste of space on the EQ servers. If they all disappeared it wouldn't change the game one heartbeat.
>:

Transfers?
I always went under the assumption that taunt produced the amount of hate via the formula X+1, where X is the top player on the hatelist, not that it WIPED X's hate while it was at it.


Transfer does not always imply erasing one and giving to another.

Points for arguing semantics in english though.

Lol ok..you give a warrior snap agro abilites and no defensive / evasive on general rape 'em in fire and you know what you'll have? a big line of warriors that instantly get agro and then instantly get squashed flat.

Transfer: To convey or cause to pass from one place, person, or thing to another.
Also Transferal: The conveyance or removal of something from one place, person, or thing to another

Semantics or not, you corrected me :p I assume you did so for a reason, you've yet to point out where I was wrong though.

Taunt produces hate, it just doesn't produce a fixed amount. Like I said, X+1.

Heh. People just need to forget about class balance for now. Truth be told, there's no individual class that's in that bad of shape. The 'balancing' that's being called for would simply inflate classes even more then they already are.

You're just scared if they start balancing they'll look at bards...

Not really. Bards are overpowered. In fact, they are significantly overpowered. I would have no problem scaling down their (and, in turn, my) abilities. However, due to the nature of the class, the people that play the class, and the nature of the game in general, I'm not worried about it one bit.

There's no way SOE could significantly bring down the power of any class without losing player base, and as a result, losing money; they'll just bring the lagging classes up to speed. Hence, my statement about inflation.

Heh bard wise they need to completly nerf swarm/ae kitting. Thats downright overpowered and eventually the nerf should come soon but for the rest, bards are fine.

EQ is so fucked.

That is all.

--Cen

Some replies here even don't know the game and where exactly the warrior problems are.


When a potime equipped paladin tanks Bert, who cares? Bert is a target 2 tiers down.


There's a BERT in POTIME too, not 2 tiers down. Even monks can tank FRO in PoFire, some lesser gods in potime.


Anyone in the world can tank in exp groups, ldon, even time now

Most agree this, then WHAT's THE POINT TO HAVE A WARRIOR WIHTOUT ALMOST NO ULTILIES IN GAME ?
If a rogue can tank, he can open traps, SoS to check where's the resuce npc or where's the boss.
If a Paladin or Ranger can tank, they can bring buff and some lesser heal to group. Root adds, etc.
If a SK can tank as good as a warrior, the SK can do FD split pull.
And all SK/Pal/Ranger can grap aggro LOTS better than a warrior. And the most important one is all these 3 classes have control-able aggro. Pally stun, SK HT/Darkness/DoT, Ranger chain ensare, but warriors need to rely on weapon proc unless they have their AE Taunt (AA skill refresh time is 10 minutes ? and how large is the range ?).

From EQRanking. Top War vs Top Paladin
Davan Dragonsbane <Eternal Wrath> 8847hp 1577ATTK 2045 AC
Panidien <Eternal Wrath> 8043hp 6519Mana 1459ATTK 2017AC

Davan gets 804HP more than Panidien and 28 more AC.

You want a spell book with Res/Stun/Heal/Buff/Root and 6519 Mana, or 804hp and 28 AC more ?

Luckily, I quit my warrior at level 55.

Davan has more than that but he hasn't udapted his profile. Regardless whats the problem with panidien beeing close to davan ? :p We don't use knights to tank in time and it work just fine, we don't use knight in ldon raids either. Its just a matter of perception shrug, with warriors whining about how much they suck people are starting to believe them. Davan is pretty much a godlike tank and no paladin really come close to him atm.

Edit: Its still interesting when arguing with a warrior that they tend to totally ignore the fact they have some pretty good AA and just resume themself at I just have HP/AC and that paladin has 3000000 spells in his book /whines whines whines.

Lol ok..you give a warrior snap agro abilites and no defensive / evasive on general rape 'em in fire and you know what you'll have? a big line of warriors that instantly get agro and then instantly get squashed flat.

So, how do they stay alive after their disciplines wear off?

Granted, removing those two abilities might require some encouters to be retuned, and it would require a HUGE change in the playerbase's mindset and adjusting a lot of tactics... but it could be done.

You know, like maybe sending in a weaponshield ranger to engage, and then send in a tank after them, so when the ranger drops, the tank is right there and ready.

I've never done that fight, so I'm probably missing something.

Still, it seems to me that all of the tank classes *can* tank if asked to tank, so I'm not seeing the problem with balance.

Still, it seems to me that all of the tank classes *can* tank if asked to tank, so I'm not seeing the problem with balance.

The problem is that, beyond tanking, warriors have nothing to offer a group.

If a group is forming and the tank is going to be a Shadowknight, for whatever reason, then the warrior has no utility to offer that would be compelling enough to have the group invite him. Warriors are in the shallow end of the melee dps pool, we can't offer spot heals, dots, nukes, slows or buffs.

How to fix it:

1. Give paladins and shadowknights /disc defensive. I'm tired of hearing "you get defensive, you don't need anything else". Defensive is not the holy grail of tanking it used to be.

2. Give warriors a no fail snap aggro ability that refreshes every 2 minutes or requires sacrificing 10% of our total hps and a cumulative +hate taunt ability instead of the current top hate +1 taunt we have now.

3. Separate the offensive and defensive /disc timers. Disallow certain combinations of disciplines and AA abilities ie: Defensive and Rampage. Relook at the refresh times of each.

4. Change itemization code so that a pure melee will get different stats than a hybrid or pure caster. The reason Sony slaps all plate classes on gear is to save room in their item database. Sony needs to suck it up and make it so that when I have to roll against a paladin or shadowknight for that neat new BP I'll get 3-4 more ac and 10-25 more hps instead of the +wis/int or +mana.

5. Give warriors a smidgen of utility. Find a way for them to bind wound while in combat, give them an AA ability that raises the atk of the group ( call it Penchant for Destruction :) ) or some other way for the warriors to provide something besides getting beat on.

6. Any new skill or ability that should have a cost associated with it should cost a percentage of the warriors total hps. This way warriors can have their hp superiority, have it be meaningful, and not get away with getting new skills for free.

Those are just some ideas. Should we get all of them? Most likely the answer is no but its a place to start. And it can be achieved without nerfing the other tank classes. Re-tuning some encounters would be inevitable but I think that's better for the health of the game long term than what Alan VanCouvering says they are planning over at SOE.

The problem is that, beyond tanking, warriors have nothing to offer a group.

I don't know man but this weekend I wanted to get my alt shaman Bane so I pushed for adventures hard to get it. I grouped with probably at least 6 different warriors this weekend and all 6 could hold agro very well and in fact could tank 4 at a time..so not only are they tanking but they are a means of CC and in most cases they were comedians so they had added entertainment value as well. You are what you make and hell I searched long and hard for warriors and they were actually far and few inbetween at times. Yes these are the easy adventures but then again the hard ones actually do require a warrior so thats not an issue. Ever see a warrior getting 1500 critical blasts? Gear is the fix for warriors! Get busy.

Ever see a warrior getting 1500 critical blasts? Gear is the fix for warriors! Get busy.

Warriors can't crit blast with gear alone, they also require AAs for that. Thanks for trying though :)

The problem is that, beyond tanking, warriors have nothing to offer a group.


I wasn't aware that they were supposed to have anything else to offer the group.

Don't get me wrong- I think warriors need something to make them a bit more competitive with the hybrids in the day to day grind, but I don't agree that they are "broken" or that they can't tank anymore.

(edit- fixed dumb spelling error)

I personally haven't said warriors are "broken" once in this thread. I don't think warriors are broken, just not balanced compared to the other tank classes. Defensive isn't enough.

Warriors currently don't bring anything to the group except tanking ability, as they were designed to do.

Knights bring the exact same tanking ability, outside of targets that require defensive, plus all their other skills.

The level-headed warriors don't want to send knights back to the dark ages of Kunark, they just want a little parity.

Taunt is already pretty freaking powerful, no other ability in the game can generate a nearly unlimited amount of aggro instantly. Change it to give a fixed but smaller amount of aggro, and you can kiss tank switches good bye.

Upping melee damage to make a warrior an acceptable DPS slot-filler would be solve their utility problem. All melee need a boost in that department given PoP spells and focus items, but give warriors a little more. If wizzies and rogues are equal and at the top of the DPS chain, warriors should at least fill out a DPS spot as well as a druid.

No dude, your problem is, the fix to warriors exists. Its called gear. Excluding the very beginning, when everyone is in no-stat armor, and the end game, where everyone has much the same armor, warriors beat hybrids consistently by at least 1500 hp and 200-300 AC. The only problem is availability of decent weapons for warriors. To be honest, if I played a DPS class, I wouldn't group with a warrior who didn't have at least a BoC. It's way too rough.

Well, today being the 18th, I'm rather curious: How did the 'protest' go?

Heh.. you dont read the boards much eh? SOE announced a live chat on the 24th inregards to melee balance. The stand down has been pushed to Dec. 2nd to see what SOE has to say first. Smart move.

Actually, I peruse a few boards during the day. I had heard about the warrior cry to arms (originally scheduled for today), and about the discussion on the 24th. But, the couple of threads I had read (like this one) announcing the 18th hadn't been updated, so no, I didnt know about the move to the 2nd.

If you really want to stay caught up with the stand down and the planning for it bookmark the steel warrior thread linked in the first post. Darkoan updates it frequently.

EverQuest Chat on November 24th at 6:00pm - 7:00pm pacific time. Melee System Enhancements!
You've been asking for them and now we're ready to discuss them. We're taking a big departure from what many of you are used to when it comes to combat. With that in mind, here is a brief summary of these exciting enhancements to better help you target your questions to us during the live chat. Don't worry if you miss the chat, we'll post the logs on EverQuestLive.com


Increase the contributions melee classes provide in a group setting
Address the current deficit between the pure melee classes and other classes
Add more depth and potential for skilled play to melee combat
Provide a system that encourages attentiveness and decision-making skills, without focusing heavily on twitch gameplay

Take advantage of an opponent's weakness. See an opening, strike home for the kill!

Monks, Rogues and Warriors will gain the ability to recognize certain weaknesses in an opponent's defense. These "Openings" will be a variety of types and can occur based on several different situations during combat. Be quick though, an opening will not present itself for long. Strike quick with a new combat skill once your character recognizes an opening. These new combat skills are being designed just for this combat system revision. Using and maintaining these skills expends the character's Endurance (a new statistic, calculated from the character's basic stats).


Here's a combat example:

A warrior is serving as the tank for his group, standing in front of a goblin. While battling the goblin, the warrior makes an exceptional parry and is presented with an opening. An indicator appears with the "opening icon" and the word "Parry" next to it (this information also appears in the chat window).

Now is his opportunity to strike back after the exceptional parry! Only certain combat skills can be used to react to a parry opening. Other types of openings will allow the use of other skills. Some skills may be usable in response to more than one type of opening. Also, your position in relation to the target can change the effectiveness of certain skills.

In this case, our warrior knows that he can use one of three combat skills, each having some merit. One might stun the target, one might increase the hate generated by the warrior for a few rounds, and one might make it easier for everyone to hit the NPC.

In this case, our warrior elects to try to stun the goblin. He presses the appropriate button and luck smiles upon him as he successfully executes the strike, leaving the goblin standing dumbly for a combat round.

Increasing Your Endurance and Learning New Skills


Increase Endurance by increasing attributes or by acquiring special items that directly increase your Endurance pool
Find tomes or instructions manuals and take them to specific trainers to learn new skills
Choose your skills from skill categories (such as Tactical) containing skills focused to a purpose
Most openings are available only to a single character, but some are available to all nearby characters
Disciplines will be transferred to this new system
Existing Discipline timers will be reviewed, and several will probably be set to their own timer
Disciplines will require an Endurance cost
Hybrids will receive a limited Endurance pool for their disciplines
There will be other changes as well. Keep your eyes on the Test server and our update messages for more details as we move forward.

This new system is much more flexible than the existing disciplines. It will be relatively easy to add new combat skills, as well as new skills that are not limited to openings. This system creates the possibility for tremendous enhancement in the future, allowing groups a large number of options when it comes to melee combat.

Talk to you in the Live Chat!

Alan



Well.. theres some ideas i guess.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

I don't WANT to play DAoC! I don't WANT to need 8000 hotkeys. I don't WANT to have to med up endurance!

"Hi, we have a game that pretty much works, but pure melees do too little damage. Let's see, we could increase the amount of damage they do, or we could invent some new cockamamie skill-based thing, or rather just steal it directly from DAOC, invent a new stat which none of our existing equipment or spells augments, and force melees to have 900 hotkeys that they have to page to in .001 seconds after a riposte and before their next attack in order for them do a little bit more damage, or some other quasi-useless thing. What do you guys think?"

CHORUS: "WE VOTE FOR COCKAMAMIE!"

Hybrids will receive a limited Endurance pool for their disciplines

i'm so glad my discs are eye candy or utterly useless...now i'll be able to use them more often

As a shaman that frequents hard adventures, i much prefer a paladin or SK to a warrior as a rule, but it really does depend on the warrior. Sure it depends on the gear, but its the same with paladins and warriors. A warrior needs proc weapons as well as nice hp, although they generally go hand in hand, and a paladin needs skill / a lot of hp. Good Paladin doesnt let me get aggro after slow on inc, Good warrior steals aggro before i get hit after slow on inc. Theres no difference. Bad Paladin doesnt stun and i get aggro off slow on inc ( bad news btw, 1k tripling mobs > me in a couple rounds ). Bad warrior cant get aggro and i get it.

Anyways the point im trying to get at is they arent *that* out of balance, a good warrior can keep aggro well, just as a good paladin can. IF there was going to be any changes i wouldnt add abilities, i'd make an AA ability something along the lines of Innate taunt which is 100% success rate. Don't change taunt, just make it succeed all the time. This would make for skill in the warrior class ~ as soon as you see a high aggro spell land ( slow, SoS, snare ) whack taunt down, reducing the repop time would make it overpowered. Warriors are fine, it all depends on the person.

Grumblin ~ Prophet.

SANTERRE OMG /agree if i wanted DOaC i would play that and a Melee mana pool WTF is this Star Wars?

GAH i hate VI sometime! Simple Problem, Simple fix...


Grumblin's 100% taunt IS the simple fix...

Suesse

HAHA warriors cannot go afk FOR 3 Beers a smoke and a piss now.

Grumblin there is a difference, a bad warrior is a badly geared warrior (75% of all in terms of aggro weapons?), a bad pally is an unskilled player.

HAHA warriors cannot go afk FOR 3 Beers a smoke and a piss now.

We never could =( Especially not in LDoN. I shoulda made a wizard.

Skill and Gear go hand in hand. A skilled player will be in a better guild, and be the MT of that guild, or a higher tank at least, thus getting better equip. You can guarantee that paladins in higher end guilds are good (with a few exceptions) and on the same token, you can guarantee that the warriors in the high end guilds are good and can keep aggro.

So with the tie between skill and gear, this only leaves room for the warriors that cant keep aggro ruining the whole warrior class in that people wont invite warriors to groups after the come across a particularly shocking one, whereas on the same token if they come across a skilled one, they will not be as adverse to the idea of a warrior in the group. I love warriors, just give them taunt AAs imo ! This will solve the less priveledged ones not keeping aggro, and so will solve the group dilemma.

Another thing, about this DPS for warriors thing? Redundant ~ you dont get a warrior for DPS. You get them to tank, thats all.

Grumblin (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=441986) ~ Prophet.
Leader of For Order and Duty.

Now this is exactly a post that belongs in a warrior section. Too bad we don't have class specific sections.

Maniacles,

Warriors blow. They dont deserve a forum. Gimme a pally tank plzkkthx

I can't believe you said a unskilled war doesn't get aggro after slow lands. sorry to burst your bubble but they arer relying on a random proc or taunt to randomly work.... there is no other utility outside of a 15min reuse auto success taunt called aoe taunt...

Hmm, thats not the way i intended that statement, although i can see how it could be construed that way. I didn't say directly that because a warrior cant get aggro they are unskilled. You'll find with the general statement that Paladins need skill, Warriors need gear, and as the blanket general statement i said gear and skill *usually* go hand in hand as the skilled warriors will be applying for higher guilds thus have better equip.

Fact : Good warriors get aggro off me straight away.
Fact : Other warriors can be the most skilled but they still wont get aggro, because of their equip.

You missed the overall conclusion.

Conclusion : Give warriors a 100% successful taunt, this will bridge the gap.
*edit*(ambiguous) make the current taunt a 100% success rate, and make AE taunt focus on the AE part.

Grumblin ~ Prophet.

When playing my warrior Ehud (especially in LDoN), I prefer to have someone Pacify/Lull ahead of the pull.

I pull with my bow, try to stick a couple arrows in 'im, hit auto-attack, and greet him with a Disarm/Bash/Taunt combo, then call for assist. If everyone does their job and waits for my assist call (including the Slower), usually I hold agro initially. During the fight, I'll hit Bash/Disarm/Taunt constantly, trying to keep the mob focused on me ... and hope for my weapons to proc.

I've trained Ehud well, I feel. He's level 52, and solo'd most of the way to 40. His Archery is 195+, 1HS and 2HS are maxxed out for his level. I've spent LOT of plat on his equipment (ok, to me, 70K is a lot) - don't have BoC, but when I'm the MT, use a Barnacle-covered Axe (hate proc) and a Venomous Axe (DD proc) combo. When I have mid-50 shaman STR/DEX buffs, my STR is 255 and DEX is over 200.

When my weaps proc early in the fight, I can hold agro well and if I lose it, get back with a Taunt.

*HOWEVER*, if the weaps DON'T proc, then there can be trouble, regardless of how I Bash/Disarm/Taunt the mob.

And that's what I want fixed. I'm willing to grant other classes higher DPS, but when playing Ehud, I feel strongly that agro management MUST be more than a reliance on a random occurance of a proc.

Oh ... but INDEED if anyone has a BoC wasting away in their bank that they just DO NOT want and are willing to donate for a good cause ... send Briaroak or Ehud a tell. :)

"When playing my warrior Ehud (especially in LDoN), I prefer to have someone Pacify/Lull ahead of the pull...."

It's sick how powerful that spell is, isn't it? But I like to lay down a bunch of pacifies and pull or let the MT pull as well in those things. Why waste your DPSers time and shredliness running aroung grabbing stuff, or taunt time busting extra mezzes? (ugggh, I can't believe I just said that, someone take my union card now ;) )

When you get Ehud to level 58, see me for groupage ;)
/pet taunt on

Warm regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Autonomous Collective

Ehud. Hmm, i generally slow on inc *because* taunt then goes above slow aggro, so then the warrior, if a successful taunt, now has a slow to help them along to keep aggro, the better warriors wait for slow to land before taunting, as generally the puller gets little to no aggro and, for example, in hard, it is costly not to slow very early, as the mobs triple for 989, but then again, i hear some people wait for aggro to slow, so in that case this wouldnt apply. Mashing taunt wont give you + aggro, wait until someone else is being attacked before hitting taunt.

I still stand beside my quick fix instant success taunt theory though.

I've always had a question on how Taunt *REALLY* works - whether it accumulates agro, or sets the Taunter at "top hate +1". Either way, when I see the mob turn away from me, Taunt is the first thing I hit, so if slow hits after I pull or before I pull, I still end up Taunting. Unfortunately, even THEN it doesn't always work - maybe it's because the Taunt has failed. /sigh

I've even tried:
/em points to the "HIT ME!!!" flag on his helmet!!
(above thanks to Woodie of /GU comics ... didn't work, btw)

Upgraded my 2nd hand from Veno Axe to Snowchipper, last night's LDoN went well, zero deaths from loss of agro. Bard was on Lull duty (awesome gal, btw ... Anasxa IIRC ... level 45, but was twisting 4 songs and meleeing ... damfine job).

Crossing fingers on SoE's plans for melee changes - they sound promising.

And Nydia, when I get to 58, it'd be an honor to group with ye. :)

Taunt is aggro + 1, represented by if i cripple vindi say 50 times, and the warrior AE taunts, they get aggro straight away, and a chain nuking wizard cant get aggro.

i thought that was AE taunt grum

same principal. a successful taunt gets aggro off rediculously high amounts of aggro. whereas if say i slow the mob, warrior does successful taunt, then i heal myself, ill get aggro again.
so therefore it cant be a set amount. right?

Shrug, as a warrior I can tell people now that agro procs (what I like to call gimmicks) are not nessisary to gain and hold agro, in fact i'd say that from my experiance how much dps you do directly effects your ability to mantain agro..For instance I have not used an agro proc weapon in most any of my exp groups for almost 2 months, simply because their ratio's are so inferior to the non-agro proc weapons i've already got, and I rarely ever have problems holding agro. Its one of the reasons the BoW is so good, its not because of the proc (thats icing imo) its because it deals so much dmg that mobs have no choice except to not like you. Then again the taunt skill is hardly broken except on perhaps on 66th+ mobs, it only rarely fails to work when you use it at the right time (ie: after someone else takes agro, not before). Anyways, thats just my experiance as a warrior, take it as you will, and if you think i'm wrong then let me know, but at least back up your argument with something more than just "you're wrong warriors suck ballz yo!"

Shrug, as a warrior I can tell people now that agro procs (what I like to call gimmicks) are not nessisary to gain and hold agro, in fact i'd say that from my experiance how much dps you do directly effects your ability to mantain agro..For instance I have not used an agro proc weapon in most any of my exp groups for almost 2 months, simply because their ratio's are so inferior to the non-agro proc weapons i've already got, and I rarely ever have problems holding agro. Its one of the reasons the BoW is so good, its not because of the proc (thats icing imo) its because it deals so much dmg that mobs have no choice except to not like you.

So basically what you are saying is that the blade from the god of war holds pretty good agro because it has a nice ratio. Thanks for the detective work brell! Well no kid`n the blade of war is gonna hold agro pretty well.... but what about the 95% of EQ warriors that will never kill Rallos Zek and have a shot at a BoW?

DPS may be a major factor in holding agro... that I wont argue...but for people that do not have, and most likely never will have access to higher dps weapons such as the BoW, there really are no other options for holding agro other than agro-procing weapons.


(just for the sake of argument I can think of 2 examples where dps doesnt mean anything in regards to holding agro. Agro can easily be held on both Seru and the Emperor without doing any dps at all...)


I dont even know why I made this post... i really dont even care anymore. Im rolling a Berzerker! /wrar 8*(

The stand down isn't specifically about a single exceptional paladin tanking Quarm. Its about 10 months of...

suck up an experience penalty for over a year, live through kunark, then you can bitch.

Freakin' pathetic whiners.

and yes, I used to walk to sebilis uphill, both ways.

suck up an experience penalty for over a year, live through kunark, then you can bitch.

Irrelevant.

Kunark is 4 expansions and 1 extension in the past. The balance pendulum has swung in favor of casters and hybrids. Dec 16th the new melee system gets patched in and we'll go from there.

Stop being a wimp, reroll as a troll sk and play with an exp penalty for 4 years. Then you can bitch about exp penalties. And even then, the troll shadowknights from the beginning will still have you beat.

yes but everyone knew trolls had regen and slam. It's not unreasonable to figure that you'd pay for it somewhere, somehow.

and if you think i'm wrong then let me know
You aren't wrong in a sense, but as Immortalis mentionned, you are in the 10% warriors of EQ who can benefit from high dps warrior weapons. And of course you need all the AAs to do more damage.

But like you say, you use taunt only when you loose aggro, and with hate proccing weapons, I believe that you wouldn't even need to taunt (maybe after the slow).

Anyway... The problem is that the "majority" of warriors (without high dps weapons, or hate proccing weapons) can't tank efficiencly, because they can only relay on "taunt". Even if they are dedicated to be tank. Let's see how those new skills balance the game, if soon the warrior playing will change from kick/taunt smashing. ;)

I think you are under the assumtion I am weilding a blade of war, in which case you are wrong. I currently have an emperor 2hs, and a GRMK / SEM combo..and both hold agro easily. Also I am far from max offensive aa, having only just the other day gained flurry 1, and no pop crit aa's.

ps- From what i've seen, Emp sword is attainable by nearly what, 10 or more guilds now? I think we can religate it to "damn common", after all I think every warrior in SoT that was in guild when we killed him have an emp sword, the ones that don't being ones that chose not to loot one.

/shrug
Then I don't know, I know that with my seru sword I have aggro problems (especially if there are melees in the group), and it's in par with emp one for dps I guess, and we are on par on AAs too apparently. Why you, why you!!?? :b

Actually seru sword is just barely better dps than emp sword (VERY small margin). Thought it would depend on what kind of attacking rating you've got, and what you're fighting..I'm speaking from experiance as having exp'd in ele's and down PoP wise, and only things I really have any trouble with is initial agro on yellow / red mobs in fire as taunt doesn't work on them too often. (that and the damn magma fuggers are too damn tall to AE taunt when your lame shaman shrinks you).

LDoN has helped a lot, if a warrior does a few Everfrost missions, he can get a decent augment. Only 10 successes and you can get access to an augment that procs +400 aggro :) I think you need 15 for the one that is +600 aggro? Not sure though.

Taunting Blow off of the Xanamech Hammer (I still wield one, bleh) is 450, the augment on my BoC is 400.. It's a nice little augment to have. Grab two of them and it helps a lot.

Offensive AA's are great too. Got about 170 or so AA's now, and the difference is enormous.

But.. I agree with what Immortalis said. Most people that play warriors won't get the great gear.. Or have the time to exp all day.

Hopefully they'll fix the problem.. But even though I wish I had it, having aggro like a paladin would really make the game too easy for a warrior. :\

I'd like to thank both Grumblin and Brellis for their insights.

Last couple of groups Ehud has been MT for, I was *USUALLY* able to get agro back with a Taunt. It's important to watch the eyes (if present) of the mob and Taunt only when it turns from me.

There have definitely been situations where I have taunted at the right time, and I didn't get agro back. Maybe the taunt failed, and maybe right after my taunt, the other player got agro right back. Not sure, but will keep working on it.

BTW - when soloing (it's still possible, barely), I still mash the Taunt button whenever it pops up, just to make sure the skill is maxed.

My chest puffed with pride the other day when one of the group members said something like "finally, a warrior who can hold agro" ... /flex! Unfortunately, that was just before a combination of a nasty poison trap, adds, and rooting mobs resulted in multiple deaths for our cleric ... /sigh /mourn.

I am so glad that I don't really have to worry about these issues anymore. With my Raex BP, and my Darkblade and Edge of Eternity both augmented with Anger3... I have agro oozing out of my pores.

Its such a thing of beauty 8*(

You're so leet Immy! *swoon*

I do it all for you...

Mmmmmm...*giggle*

DPS and Aggro per second are only vaguely related.

Ya just vaguely, would explain why monks with time weapons have crazy ass aggro. Just vaguely tho :p

Lol kinu with the drive by owning.

I've never, ever pulled too much agro during a raid!

:)

From what people can see, aggro is purportional to Damage Bonus + Raw Damage of Weapon, per swing, hit or miss. Might be DB + Raw *1.25.

Damage is purportional to Damage Bonus + 5 * Raw Damage of Weapon, per hit, with decent ATK.

So yes, aggro is only vaguely related to actual DPS.

Edit oh ya, source is some work done at thesteelwarrior. Pretty easy to reproduce as well. Just do a known amount of aggro, and count swings with 2 - 5 different weapons, and notice the strait lines you get. And how damage doesn't do jack shit, it is the swings and the stats of the weapon that matter.

Leayakk -

I think it's funny that you use the exact same variables in both equations (DMG and DmgBonus) and yet say they're only vaguely related.

You even left out a variable common to both equations, weapon delay. Agro is a function of weapon delay (swings over time) just as DPS obviously is.

-----------
P.S. Your average damage / hit equation is off btw. 5 is too high, it's actually very close to 4 for monks with 1900ish atk against mobs with PoP AC (with the value 6 showing the max hit and 2 showing the modal)... the value is much closer to 3 against, say, Ssra mobs... and other classes are slightly depressed relative to monks, due to the different damage tables.

I think Laeyakk's point was that the actual damage done in a particular swing appears not to affect the amount of aggro generated by that swing. So both the damage done and aggro generated by a particular swing are derived from the same variables (with a few extras thrown in in the case of damage done), but they don't directly influence each other. In other words, aggro is more closely related to damage potential (with a heavier weight to the damage bonus) rather than actual damage done.

I don't know how correct the statements are; I haven't done any parsing myself, and I only read the steel warrior once in a while.

One problem I see though is with "known amount of aggro"--we don't know everything that factors into it. We don't know what method is used to make hate decay over time (or if this is even consistent between different mobs), or the exact effects of varying the distance from a mob, or whether the rumored "aggro multipliers" exist when doing something more than once in a short period of time.