GO GO Chirac (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&ncid=721&e=1&u=/nm/20031217/wl_nm/france_chirac_dc)

Shouldn't you be too busy concerned with finding non-existant WoMD to be bothered with this stuff?

The policy is beyond stupid, though. Right up there with giving away guns in a bank.

Would it rank up there with being stupid enough to believe what you saw in bowling for combine was real and not staged?

Damn, just saw this and was going to post it. Damn you Marz!!

That's an insane policy. To actually promote secularism in a modern society, it's dumbfounding.

I'm all for secularism, but this proposal just boggles the mind.

Going out so I don't have time to waste atm but whats so wrong about this aside from limiting religions to outside the school which is good all in all. Population is behind him, thought shit if you think its bad really.

Oh ya before some tard tell me its discriminating and how they ahve the right to wear nikes, nikes has never called to kill people in the name of allah or jesus or whatever. Its all religions and its good, thats for having followed a scholarship in france schools, because for some reason I don't think you did.

I guess if the population is behind him then its all good?Ok.

SHEEEEEEEEEP.

I guess this discussion will bring here a debate as heated as it is in France.

State and religion are separated in France, I understand (biasedly being a non religious person) this decision to seperate public school and religion. I believe that showing your religion in school doesn't do good. As it's already a field of cliques and groups, different religions shouldn't be a way to create different groups (Most kids won't try to get why he's wearing a kippa, he's just "different").

Sends the wrong message..

Says "We Are Afraid!!"

Then again.. it IS France.. so it might be spot on..

Population is behind him, thought shit if you think its bad really.

The irony.

Will Catholics still be allowed to wear crosses around their necks? What about other Christians and their WWJD bracelets?

If it's not a 1 pound one, yes (like, hidden under the shirt), and I'm not sure what "WWJD" stands for...

The Muslim Headscarf is a sign of the Dark ages, has nothing to do with a modern society and no muslim woman is forced to wear by any koran rules .....
Its forbidden in most parts of germany aswell at school , same applies for christian cross in classrooms.

'Going out so I don't have time to waste atm but whats so wrong about this aside from limiting religions to outside the school which is good all in all. '

- Aside from limiting religion? That IS what's wrong.
Every person should have the right and security to express their religion. If you are complaining that it creates hostility - how about you fucking work on reaction and discrimination from the population, rather than disabilitating the religious?

It's a right direction in terms of religious problems in society - but a horrendous approach. Hostile reaction is the theme that needs to be dealt with here. Not the innocent people who wish to express their religion.

I'm not sure what "WWJD" stands for...

"What Would Jesus Do"

I usually follow it up with "for a klondike bar"

Repost of one of my previous replies to a different thread regarding the same topic.

Here's a little more fleshed out article, highlighting some more facts about the french proposal.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3309885.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3309885.stm)

The commission's recommendations would outlaw the Jewish kippa, large Christian crosses and the Islamic headscarf, which would be considered overt religious symbols.

"Discreet" medallions and pendants which merely confirm a person's religious faith would be allowed.

Mr Stasi stressed that the commission's work did not target France's Muslim community but was aimed at giving all religions a more equal footing.

The report also recommends that Yom Kippur - the Jewish Day of Atonement - and the Muslim Eid al-Kabir festival be celebrated in state schools.

French public life has a strong secular tradition which has existed since the revolution, but the commission has now recommended that the plan be enshrined in law.

I guess if the population is behind him then its all good?Ok.

SHEEEEEEEEEP.

So... backing your public elected official is wrong just because *cough* someone else says so?

*glances to the board inhabitants of the landmass across the atlantic*

Pay the hecklers no mind...it's just getting a little payback for the accusations of "sheepdom" that have been coming from your side of the pond.

Personally I feel France has the right to decide it's own rules. If the French feel that headscarves, displayed crosses etc. are an undesirable intrusion into what is meant to be a secular institution, that is their prerogative.

As an outsider looking in, I expect to see more areas of friction between what was historically a catholic or secular nation and a muslim minority that has been growing steadily. Sadly in this day and age the two seem more and more irreconcilable. Maybe I am wrong... after all I am not French, have never been to France and can't claim to have any great insights into French society.

You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named 'Bush', 'Dick', and 'Colin.' Need I say more?

-Chris Rock

Between a law that forbid overt religious sign and laws that guns for young people ( remember the 2 guys that killed 15 people in a school then shooted themself? I do) or adults to get snipers rifles ( this one I remember too) then go crazy and do a carnage, I ll take the former. Take care of your own problems before bothering with outside of your country.

You insulted french so much because we supposedly had no clue about how usa work and blablablabla. I don't need to repeat all the crap on this board. What give you the right to do the same then ?

This law wont kill anyone while a lot of people died in iraq. You make choices,you assume them and thats great but thats not even close to beeing comparable marz "irony" martini.

I m a former christian, I used to go to church 2x a week for 15 years. The only thing I understood after all this time is that people are so damn blind about "faith". For me if there is really a god, he isn't protecting us and I would say he is fairly sadist to let so many people die and suffer when he is supposed to be so great and have so much love for humans.

Christianism is dying ( in most industrialised countries) and you know why? Because its not controlling the masses anymore. Young don't give a crap about it really. TO make a comparaison islam is still going strong because it keeps controlling people from the moment they are born, just look at all those suicide bombers that die for "allah" in palestine or in iraq right now.

Finally, I have no problem with people believing in god, they can practice any religions they want even if I personally think its a whole lot of bullshit and history is behind me on this one, be it crusade or inquisition or heresies or these days islam. As long as it keep them happy and stop their fear of death or give them a goal in life then more power to them. The point is school is a public(states and church are 100% separated in france). Its for EVERYONE and it is SEPARATE from ANY religion. Outside of school people may do whatever they wish.


I m not going to post on this again, I ll read it tho so if you want to post answers, I be glad to read them but I do not wish to get into an arguement that no one will win and that will just lead to insults.

No hard feeling at all about anyone here but like every single american, I as a french love my country and I won't let people insult me or my people. You guys do the same and its great to see even if we disagree a lot, its called having honor.

So how about that budget deficit, Kinu? ^_^

Take care of your own problems before bothering with outside of your country.

Although I don't think it applies to you, Kinu, there is a point to be found here. Looks like you've discovered it, but I think the intended audience (AMERICA IS TEH SUKZOR crowd) will likely not see what you have.

What give you the right to do the same then ?

Another good point. Except you've nailed it when you said "You insulted french so much because we supposedly had no clue about how usa work and blablablabla." It's a game of tit for tat. I think enough has been said about US policy that turnabout is fair play.

I m a former christian

Ditto!

Christianism is dying...Young don't give a crap about it really.

While I can't comment on trends in France, as it's been a few years since my last time there, I can say that it's not entirely what I'm seeing here in the states.

I do not wish to get into an arguement that no one will win and that will just lead to insults.

For once, neither do I. Just offering some insight.

like every single american, I as a french love my country and I won't let people insult me or my people.

BINGO! You get it, but I bet there are quite a few (Taino, Hardmutt) that will watch this point sail right over their head.

Anyways...I figure that this is wrong under the following assumptions. Correct me where I'm wrong.

1- France has some type of social contract protecting the freedom of religion. Be it statute, constitution, agreement, etc.

2- Children are required by law to attend school.

If you require by law, that someone be somewhere, and at the same time require that they NOT observe religious custom, then you have restricted their right to freedom of religion. I can't see it any other way. However, my assumptions are still in question, so I wouldn't rush out to condem Chirac just yet.

If you choose to be part of a society, reap the repercusions.

Unless you take up farming and park your ass in a desert somewhere and somehow single-handedly manage to sustain yourself you'll always be dancing to someone elses' pipe. Democracy is just "majority rules". It's not "I'm gonna get stuff prancing my way".

Society can only handle so much diversity before the concept crumbles altogether. Society is balancing on a razor, go one way and you get a demotivated and probably bankrupt community, go the other and you get revolt and outbreak republics.

You per definition lose some liberties when you choose to take part in democracy. Personally I don't see a problem with this whole religion thingy. Shit, I practice martial arts and follow the customs of my kwoon more often than most of the "religious" people in the western world goes to church. You don't see me wearing a shirt saying "Yeah, I can kick your ass, ese". When you're in your own home, do as you like. When you're on the streets, be part of society. Or choose a different society.
We got rid of most of our trash in the 1800s *wink wink*.

Well since someone answered without flame I may answer too.

Kivorn: Budget is going bad :p mainly because the old govs wanted to please people too much and gave them way too many rights. The social security system + the 35hours per week of work system is destroying the budget. The current government is trying to fix it but it will take years to take effect if it even work. RTT ( 23 days of vacation that are NOT considered as vacation and you can take any time of the year which lead us to 2 Months of vacation per years NOT including week ends I.E bullshit thanks to socialist gov) are a mess to deal with and there are so many people abusing the CME ( free medicine/healing even if you don't work or don't pay taxes etc. Good in theory but horrible to balance in practice).

Fauer: Both assumptions are correct, you have to attend school until 16 years old however that only work as long as you follow the rules and the laws. Its like bringing drugs to school, if you get caught you will be kicked out and not taken back by the school regardless of your age because it overwrite the must attend law, naturally another school can probably take you but there are only so many schools. The same will happens with this law. Its not such a big deal, the problem is medias are showing muslim part too much because the thing started with a girl wearing her sign at school. She didn't want to remove it and the director kicked her out so now all the medias are focusing on the muslim part. That + the current islam situation in iraq and world politic etc. Its complex :)

So much babble here.

Let me make this clear.

The French are morons, Yes they helped us to win a war against the English but this is just stupid. Please just drink the grape cool-aide.

WE RID FRANCE OF GOD WON1WON....... NASTY EMERIKANS FUCKED OUR GOOD THING IN IRAQ!!!! DIE EMERIKANS WE ARE FREEEEEEEE YOU ARE SHEEEEEEEEP. But our bitches cannot wear scarves, that would SOOOOO suck.

WE RID FRANCE OF GOD WON1WON....... NASTY EMERIKANS FUCKED OUR GOOD THING IN IRAQ!!!! DIE EMERIKANS WE ARE FREEEEEEEE YOU ARE SHEEEEEEEEP. But our bitches cannot wear scarves, that would SOOOOO suck.

LOL that's great

It's actually quite unbelievable this guy is still alive with such low brain activity.

Is he running for governor?

Kinu,
Not going to respond to the Europe vs. USA crap being bandied about. I understand that one of your posts was directed at some morons that enjoy bringing any discussion down to the gutter. I won't respond to that post...

I think the main thing I worry about is the, use any cliche you like, slippery road/pandora's box..etc., that this legislation represents. Once you start controlling this kind of expression, it becomes hard to stop. You have start telling them they can't wear their hair a certain way (Hasidic Jews come to mind), and so on until they are all wearing drab gray uniforms and have their heads shaved (I know, way too extreme but you get my point).

*The French are morons*

Obviously not as much as you.