All this guild bashing has brought me to thinking. (yeah dangerous habit)

What truly makes a guild a good one?

I think all guilds start off with people who like to hunt together, friends that seek the same common goal.

But then what happens?

The guild grows, and some just want to keep it simple, others wish to go Umber.

Going Umber I would suppose take piles of rules to keep the masses in line, stop loot issues, tight screening of applicants.
(Anyone who runs an Umber guild, more enlightenment would be loved here.)

Now me, I've never cared for Umber. I prefer just friends who are there for each other and having fun. Quality over Quantity. After all the game should be more about fun and relaxing then loot which is just pixels on a screen right? It's not going to feed or clothe you in real life.

This brings up another area.

Guild Leader/Officer and having a wife/fiancee/relationship, who is also in the guild.

Now yes I've personally had problems being one of the fore mentioned. From talking to others in my position I've heard they too run into the same problems. I guess some people feel threatened that anyone might have a leader's ear over them. (shrugs) I've heard others quit a guild because of disagreements over this significant other. So any out there that stand on any of the three sides, can you tell me how you've handled this? Just curious. :\

The biggest problem I've found though is communication.
" Oh I can't talk to him/her because they will get defensive over their love."
" Can't Talk to him/her because they get defensive and irate, they don't want to listen."
These are only two I've heard. I'm sure there's many many more.
Come on people, if you go around behind other's backs whining instead, what happens? Internal strife and worse. Two sayings work here.

If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.
And
If you can't speak openly, don't speak at all.

Any guild, Umber or otherwise needs to know they can trust each other, and not worry about who is sneaking around whispering in shadows.

This is not a flame post. This is one done in curiosity with the want to understand and hear from others how they've fixed such problems. Maybe help others to avoid such as well. So please toss some advice and constructive stories of experienced events here.

Thank you all. :)

Nihou!

I prefer Burnt Sienna to Umber, but that's a opinion.

Anymore, there's enough guilds out there that you can actually pick and choose what 'flavor' you like. I say just find what works for you.


With Tolerance For Being On The Scale Of Big And Small...

Valarian

Umber?

Uber?

:o ooppps.

Well a guild more interested in high levels of looting then just having fun, or only interested in how many people they can have in the guild.

I wish I was more umber. My dyes suck!

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Well a guild more interested in high levels of looting then just having fun, or only interested in how many people they can have in the guild. <hr></blockquote>

Hahhahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahah

*breath*

ahahahahahahahahahahahahaahaah.

or only interested in how many people they can have in the guild.
In that case, SoT already won EQ!

hecklers, what a joy.

Seems no one can answer simple questions.

Or are they that simple?:evil

hecklers, what a joy.

Seems no one can answer simple questions.

This IS the Ayonae Ro board. Did you expect anything different?

(shrugs)

Guess some people have to find something to bring light to their boring existance. At least I can take heart in giving them that. :evil

Well a guild more interested in high levels of looting then just having fun, or only interested in how many people they can have in the guild.

Im sorry but this is just rediculous.. Did you ever consider that high end loots and content ARE FUN? And people that mass recruit and zerg never last, nor are they uber. Infact a lot more casual guilds have more members then some mid/high end raiding guilds.

It's because I've seen so many people, usually guildless people or people in small 'family' guilds try to justify their guild as being 'better' because the 'ubers' are lethal, cut-throat jackasses only looking out for themselves, when, in -many- cases you'll find that to be fairly different.

This argument pops up every other month and probably every EQ message board there is. It's even more common then people claiming jboots have been nerfed after a patch. It doesn't even dignify a response really, just mockery.

I'm not saying every guild is. That would be like saying every black dog is a mankiller. But I've run into more uber guild people that flaunt around that they can hunt where ever and do whatever just because their guild or avatar are uber.

Now, no this doesn't mean the whole guild is a bunch of jerks or such. One bad apple, you know. Still screening and control of a guild gets much harder the more people you have in it. And some guilds just have the lack of care to rein in those of their people who get rude and out of control.

actually for SoT the more people we have the harder it is for the screening process to fail, because being voted in requires you to have good interactions with everyone in the guild, as well as a vote by all members (and more members = more chance of people actually voting and not just ignoring the vote post!). And for people that think we are cut-throat kill-all GIVEDALOOT kinds of people because we raid the high end, ever consider that maybe we find enjoyment from the high end? Maybe we like it and have fun? /shrug.

because being voted in requires you to have good interactions with everyone in the guild
Brel joined SoT when they were only 10. :(

/hides

Most enlightening and thank you.

So for SoT it works better with "all" members voting on a new memeber then just say the officers or a select council.

Do you give applicants a trial period first? So many guild hunts to be invited to perhaps?

No I'm not looking to apply ;) Just curious. I like to know how other guilds work.

How do you handle loot splitting? Point system? Rolls?

Personally I think a guild is a players Eq home.

It does'nt matter how uber the guild is or at what tier they are on.

Your guild is where you can relax and be yourself. Perfect your class and make solid friends.

Guild members share their RL problems and victories and go that extra mile for you when you need them.

These are the folks you can joke with , ask for advice , and learn the game with.

These are the folks you can get so pissed at and argue with today and know tomorrow is another day.

The Largest and strongest players will tell you they would not be that way were it not for the help of their guild.

You can find a strat for every mob in the game but those strats had to be made. People had to learn how to kill those mobs through trial and error and the harder the mob the longer it takes.

Guilds made those strats because only a guild has the fortitude to suffer defeat after defeat and still keep trying.

Through all the polotics ,soap operas , and wipes guilds manage to grow and prosper because for every member feeling frustrated and defeated there are two or more picking up the pieces and moving on.

A guild is not just an army of ubers killing target after target.

It's your EQ home)

Swifton said it well.

And also, guilds dont tend to go hunting for new members (until pop) its usually the other way around.. you used to be able to be quite choosy and picky with who you let in. Dont know how it is for other guilds now but afaik its still like that.. just some guilds (across all servers) that go on a mass recruiting spree.

Yes, Yes! Very well said Swifton!!

KILL has always been a family to me. We have never been huge, have suffered what I like to think are growing pains. Still those that are the true heart and soul of KILL stay on and keep going. If you really believe in something you hang in there, you are willing to struggle, give and take, and work things out. Families have fights, disagreements, this is natural.

But, a family also shouldn't start fights over jealousy of Daddy (the guild leader) having a love. (or Mommy if it be the case as GL.) I mean, why must some think just because the GL thinks an idea is a good one that his significant other brought up, or allow that person a certain job or assignment, must some suddenly start crying it's favoritism or that the person is controlling the GL? This is very frustrating to say the least. To me it is a lack of trust in the GL to be fair to the guild.

When you play a man or woman against their love, then you look to cause massive trouble. I don't know how many other guilds have run into this problem. I'm sure there have been times where it was favoritism, or the other wanting control. Maybe the people causing strife over this have had bad experiences in other guild such. But, isn't it wrong to judge all the same way?

Ack, I rant. I seek a solution both in myself and for guilds in general because this problem is real.:(

How do you handle loot splitting? Point system? Rolls?

Points system for loot. However not too sure what other guilds do but if something drops and you are a probie and no mains want it..most likely you get a shot at it.
This happens a lot by the way. I think I have heard of other guilds destroying the loot rather than giving to probies. Seems counter productive to me but then again we dont have to many probies that fail.

As far as how many hunts before you are invited for probation period..3-5 raids usually. Most of our apps we accept these days are friends of friends/family members. We rarely open recruit and if we do, its for certain classes we are short on.

Going Umber I would suppose take piles of rules to keep the masses in line, stop loot issues, tight screening of applicants.


Rules -- yes, over time we have made one for just about everything. But the rules aren’t what make it work. It's the members of the guild and the GL / officers that in time outside of the online time to make things run smooth.

Loots -- Points are the only way to go. It puts the decision to loot or not to loot in the member’s hand. Officers step in only under unusual circumstances like a melee requesting an item that is a clearly a caster item.

Apps -- We post all apps for all members to review. During the apps probation period we keep track of raid attendance and develop an opinion on how they will fit in over the long term. When probation is up, all members have the chance to vote. I'll tell you one thing, If an app cant make a good impression during probation, there isn’t much of a chance they will in the long run either.

To make a guild, you get 10 accounts into an EQ chat channel and request a GM to go form the guild.

;-)

Swifton pretty much hit the nail on the head..

The way sot does it's recruiting is IMO the way it should be.. probation period, 3-5 raids (not tagged),.. app period 1 month minimum (tagged).. during the whole time if you like something about the person you post, if you have concerns or don't like something you post.. about 3 weeks into it you can generally tell if someone is in or not.. the voting is very seldom close.. either someone is waaay in, or someone is waaay out..

I think the biggest factor in why I think sot is great is because of the adult factor, with the exception of brel and maybe a few others, we are all adults and act like it..

I'll tell you this 100%, I am the least liked person in sot by faaar cause I talk so much among other things, but there isn't 1 person that I don't get along with..

HMMM.

Sil. I do not agree.

I think we all like you.

But you need to post more pictures of your girlfriend neeked

I think in asking what makes a guild, I assume you mean what makes a guild successful....

In my opinion there is a line that is crosses over into a simpler idealology. We all not what dont work in raids. The two things that come to mind first are lack of participation and inability to follow orders. When morale is low, participation falls off. The raid fails....

When people cant or dont or wont follow directions, the raid will fail.

We all know people during raids that interject, "hey, so n so needs to be in this group" or "pull X mob first before Y mob", which is all well and good if its the raid leader or someone designated to do so. Its those people that have all these wonderful ideas, that interject them into the raid that ruin the raid and the experiance for everyone. I think that in Everquest, democracy doesnt work. A guild needs a strong leader, and the support of the other officers. Final decisions made by that leader need to be followed, no questions asked and if the raid/guild ends in a wipe, then maybe a new leader is needed. Too many times I want to just gate away from raids and such because of people and their grandiose ideas, all of them they think are better the the current raid leaders.

This is in no way directed at anyone, so please don't take it wrong.

Guilds become great due to the common goal and the ability to work together. I think tight recruiting polocies are a must. I dont think multilevel guilds work at all, too much so n so needs helpgetting to a certain level so he/she/it (gnomes) can participate at the guild functions. I also think the the guild leaders need to put people in their place right away and corect problems on the spot, not let it feed itself into a frenzy.

I hope you find what your looking for Spek, I hope we all do...

Yes in many ways it's what I am looking for Kireg, but that only deals with raiding, and a guild is more then that.

I agree with a firm hand needed at times in many areas, but I also don't want a dictatorship either. In ways it's hard to explain. It takes a balance, both give and take. It also takes people not taking offense to suggestions or opinions.

Hey Spekter :)

I've been out of town and just saw your post. And suspect that we have a few things in common... :)

I also think that the leadership dynamic in close-knit, but nonraiding or 'raid-light' guilds is fairly different than it is in raiding guilds, where folks tend to be willing to put up with quite a bit as long as the guild is reaching its goals. With guilds of our size, it's a bit different, because what you're primarily offering folks is a home, and the quality of the interactions in guild become a lot more important.

Having co-facilitated ('led' is too strong a word ;) ) a family-style guild for 2 1/2 years on this server (and some of our members also came from a previous text MuD where we were together for four years), I can tell you that what most of our members want is 1) to feel that they are wanted/needed and 2) to feel that their concerns/opinions are respected (whether things turn out as they wish with regard to a particular issue or not). They do, of course, also like to kick ass and loot shiny objects ;) . I disagree with Kireg that wide level/intensity-spread guilds can't work, but it does take work to make sure that both the low and high end don't feel neglected in such cases.

We (Autonomous Collective) seem to go through a fairly regular cycle of growth, 'growing pains' (as issues come up that we hadn't had to consider before), crisis of confidence, discussion, policy modification, and back to business as usual. (I suspect this is pretty common in most guilds actually :) ) Because we're not a strong leadership down driven guild, it usually takes folks a while to settle in to our way of doing things, and be confident that we in the guild are all there for each other and that we not only have equal rights, but equal *responsibility* for making sure that the guild is what they want it to be, with all that that implies.

Our model is definitely *not* for everyone, and only works because we heavily scrutinize applicants (it takes approximately a month of grouping/evaulation/vote time to get into AC), and we are an adults only guild. One of the nice things about being small and fairly casual though, and not having any hard goals re targets, is that we don't 'have' to recruit, ever, and don't :) . Because we're almost all 'part-timers', we make *extremely* heavy use of our guildboard to discuss issues of concern to the guild, as well as just to socialize, and all official motions/votes take place via that format. That has taken some doing to get really going but now works fabulously for us.

Regarding the issue of your being Rugal's significant other and also an officer... hmm. Faervas' and my relationship status has never been a major issue regarding how things are run in the guild, although a couple of times it has been thrown out there during heated arguments (re potential bias). However, Faervas and I disagree enough that it's pretty apparent that we aren't a monolithic voting bloc :) . As far as I'm concerned, it's immaterial. When I'm (we're) in game, we're not our relationship; we're a cleric and enchanter, guild 'leader' and primary raid leader, respectively. Sexism (and *perceived* gender sexism, which I find quite interesting ;) ) does exist in EQ though, and the best cure I've found for this is to keep the ratio of real life females in your guild as high as possible ;) .

If you ever want to chat in game sometime, I'm kind of scarce this week, but once I get midsemester grades done (this Friday) I should be in game quite a bit and would be happy to talk with you about what has worked, and what hasn't, for us, and about your situation if you wish...

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Autonomous Collective

In that case, SoT already won EQ!


yay i won EQ fuck time!


by3 all no reason in playing since i am teh win!

Nydia also believes that any leader must have a gross overuse of smiley faces in each post.

The groundwork is:
Cool guildies
Common goals
Good participation

The evolution is (or needs to be):
Harmony
Trust
Respect

It can be as tough a job to Follow as it is to Lead. Both have to happen to pull it off; far from a dictatorship. Can't fit thru the tunnels in a straight line, someone (chosen) has to be in front. They lead, the rest follow and if that system is questioned when you're half way in, the respawns hand you your ass.

If a guild evolves with trust and respect in leadership and trust and respect among guildies, there will be harmony (sounds soooo sucky, but ya gotta admit, the word fits) and that kinda mojo makes a guild (for me).

Then you all get together and Zerg stuff cause it's fun.

It's not "that" optimistic. I think, quite simply, guilds succeed or fail depending on the ability of leaders to lead and the trust and ability of their followers. If it fails in leadership you lose a guild, if it fails in membership you lose a player, or two.

A friend put it very simply once, best quote i've found yet.
Be Nice
Share your toys
Obey your parents.

Just like any organization, guilds go through transformations.

Noob level: Start out: family-type, village, no need for many rules

Grows a little: Let in some friends, chaos starts to creep in.

Growing pains: Uh-oh people got bent out of shape over (loots, letting so and so in, what target we picked, that we don't go on raids, whatever) -- better write a charter!

Grows a little more: People who like the charter stay, those that don't leave.

Grows even more: That tank you spent all that time gearing up left for EW!!!!! ARGH!

Oob level: Starts to become professional: DKP and app voting is institutionalized. Guild leader is either a dictator or the guild leadership is democratized. If the former, the guild leader must be a very hard-core player and clever at managing the disgruntleds that inevitably arise. If the latter, the voting system needs to be smart and those with ability to really lead raids and so on will rise to the top.

In the second case, at that point a guild acheives a sort of immortality - but is "no longer the guild I knew <sniff!>" - because it is just like an well-run organization, not dependent on people, but on the organization in and of itself.

In the case of the guild under the leadership of the one, you take the risk that if the one doesn't play anymore some day, your guild falls altogether.

That's what I've observed anyway.

Nydia!! ( loving hugs)

Yeh we really need to keep in touch girl! Raiding PoA with you all so rocked! You're a great group and we all meshed well together. Toss me a message in game or I'll try to get you one.


Yes, a guild needs to follow their leader(s) but too do the leaders need to give the same respect as they expect given. When a Leader or officer shows lack of personal control and acts in inapproperiate ways, then such actions are ignored by the other leaders/officers, this will lead to distrust. If an officer, let alone a member will have fits, walk out on a raid(s), declair themselves the enemy of a fellow guildy, make threats to the guild and officers of disbanding if things don't go their way. Then these people are in no way willing to truely work things out. There is no excuseof, "well this other person does this, or is like that.", the point is if you really care for a guild, see it as friends and family, anything can be worked out.

I love my son, little 12 year old with wisdom beyond his age, or maybe just the innocence of youth still, but he said this...

" If a person or people bail as things get rough in a guild, then they never truely belonged. Just wish they did it without causing more hurting, leaving with all prides and feelings intact. "

P.S: The above was not aimed at any one person. I'm sure other guilds have suffered the same problem before.

Spekter - don't know if you remember me, but back when I was on Ayonae Ro I hung out with you and Rugal quite a bit.

Anyway long time no see - just wanted to say hi! *hugs*

WOW!! :eek

Long time no see!! Great to hear from friends we've lost contact with. :)

Yeh still around just limited time due to graveyard shifts at work. Drop me a hello in game sometime.