Plain and simple.. it must either change..

The UN has become an the exact opposite of what it was intended to be, instead of fostering peace, it enables hatred. It is a twisted, sick version of what it was meant to be.

This is going to take some explaining and a look at historical context.
In 1967 Arab Nationalism decided to War as Syrias Leader, Nassir said the Arabs goal was "the full restoration of the rights of the Palestinian people. In other words, we aim at the destruction of the State of Israel. The immediate aim: perfection of Arab military might. The national aim: the eradication of Israel."
So.. with Allies with Egypt in the South and Jordan in the East, they massed at the borders of Israel, preparing to invade and "Drive the jews into the sea."
Instead.. Israel under govern of survivors of the Holocaust, launched a pre-emptive raid, against all 3 nations, winning the war in 3 days.. and
Claiming the the West Bank of Jordan (including Jerusalem), the Golan Heights from Syria and the Gaza Strip from Egypt. Map (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2001/israel_and_palestinians/key_maps/4.stm)
This was land used as a staging ground for not only the invasion of, but the ERADICATION of Israel.
As a result, refugees from these lands were created as Israel claimed these areas.. People who fled the War zones were not allowed back as the land now belonged to Israel.
Now this is important.. Not Egypt, Not Syria, Not Jordan was willing to accept these people into their nations either!!! THEY FORCED THEIR OWN PEOPLE TO LIVE IN UN CREATED REFUGEE CAMPS. And have since the end of the war.
Losing the war, another tactic was devised to combat the israelis..
The invention of the Palestinian State..
Now if we look here (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/images/pal1922.gif) we see the area known as Israel now under British control, as it had been since it was taken from Turkey (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/ottomap.html) at the end of WW1, Turkey had ruled this area since about 1500.

Dont be misled by the PROPAGANDA that is so prevalent, especially in Europe, of the "palestinian" plight. Its garbage.
The situation of these people was created by their own governments initally as a end result of their own Nationalist, Genocidal aims, then used as pawns to curry world favor.
interesting read (http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/special-edition/terrorism50/roadback.htm)
In fact.. Jordan has even STATED that once a Palestinian state is established, steps will be made to incorperate it BACK into Jordan.
So how does the UN fit in?
The UN is a ENABLER of these lies and deceits.. Here is some nice fact for yall.
# Israel is the only country in the world that is not eligible to sit on the Security Council, the principal policy making body of the U.N. This situation violates the principle of the "sovereign equality of all member states" of the U.N. under Article 2 of the U.N. Charter.
# Seven of the 140 items submitted for a vote in the U.N. General Assembly (UNGA) in 2002 were anti-Israel. Last year, the UNGA adopted 19 anti-Israel resolutions.
# Israel is the object of more investigative committees, special representatives and rapporteurs than any other state in the U.N. system. For example, a special representative of the Director-General of UNESCO visited Israel 51 times during 27 years of activity. The Director-General of the International Labor Organization has sent a "Special Mission" to Israel and the territories every year for the past 17 years.
The U.N. has repeatedly held "Emergency Special Sessions" focusing solely on Israel. Originally conceived in 1950 for emergencies like the Korean War, Emergency Special Sessions over the past 15 years have only focused on Israel. No Emergency Special Sessions were convened to examine the genocide in Rwanda, ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia or other major world conflicts.
One glaring example of the U.N.'s biased policy against Israel is the concealment and vehement denial of the existence of videotape of Hezbollah's abduction of three Israeli soldiers made by U.N. peacekeeping forces in Lebanon. For 11 months, the U.N. lied to the world and denied the existence of any evidence related to the abduction. When the cover-up was exposed, revealing the existence of the videotape, the U.N. eventually showed Israel a heavily edited videotape with the faces of the terrorists blurred. When asked the reason behind this, U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan stated it was due to the U.N.'s standing as a neutral organization.
# The U.N. has condemned virtually every conceivable form of racism. It has established programs to combat racism and its multiple facets - including xenophobia - but has consistently refused to condemn anti-Semitism. It only was on November 24, 1998, more than 50 years after the U.N.'s founding, that the word anti-Semitism was first mentioned in a U.N. resolution (GA Res. A/53/623).
# "The Talmud says that if a Jew does not drink every year the blood of a non-Jewish man, he will be damned for eternity." -Saudi Arabian delegate Marouf al-Dawalibi before the 1984 U.N. Human Rights Commission conference on religious tolerance. A similar remark was made by Farouk al-Chareh, the Syrian Ambassador to the U.N., at a 1991 meeting, who insisted Jews killed Christian children to use their blood to make matzos, a charge recently recycled in a Saudi government sponsored newspaper.
The Commission on Human Rights routinely adopts totally disproportionate resolutions concerning Israel. Of all condemnations of this agency, 26 percent refer to Israel alone, while rogue states such as Syria and Libya are never criticized.
# Last summer's conference on Human Rights in Durban, South Africa, was devoted almost entirely to condemning Israel. The conference was boycotted by the United States and Britain.
# The United States was kicked off the U.N. Commission for Human Rights in May 2001, despite being one of the most outspoken advocates for human rights and a founding member of the Commission. It was replaced by Sierra Leone and the Sudan, both of which have records of abuses of human rights, including slavery and the forced use of children as soldiers. The United States recently regained its seat after a yearlong absence.

http://foundationstone.com.au/HtmlSupport/WebPage/MediaBias/durban010903.html

So what is the UN?

Clearly.. it has become nothing more than the futile attempts of malintentioned Nations to grab at power.
Not a tool of peace, or a Forum to discuss.

The UN has completely failed the world..
In every test or need it has proven itself totally incapable.
And while its abject failures in places like Kosovo are bad enough, its has by its nature enabled the destabilization of the Middle East over the course of many years, and ultimatly as we see, Giving itself over completely to the hatred and bias of certain members..

Yet WE should pay for this?

Fuck the UN.

Human beings have never and will never be capable of governing themselves.

1.
"the full restoration of the rights of the Palestinian people. In other words, we aim at the destruction of the State of Israel

How blatant. In my eyes this in no way means the "destruction of the state of Israel", from the way you explained it, at least. Perhaps they meant rights such as freedom of speech and shit.

Israel under govern of survivors of the Holocaust, launched a pre-emptive raid, against all 3 nations, winning the war in 3 days

Sounds to me like Israel are the aggressors. Neither nation had attacked Israel yet, and this scenario on a smaller scale is similar to World War II, in which Germany achieved anchluss with austria and invaded both Czechoslovakia and Poland. There may have been a lot of Propaganda in Germany that these countries were going to invade, there was propaganda stating the benefit of invading these countries. Is it not possible that you have been fed propaganda stating "they massed at the borders of Israel"? When in fact it was just Israel, like Germany, invading countries to expand their borders?

2.
In the World War II situation, the equivalent of the United Nations, the League of Nations, imposed a policy of appeasement for the sake of peace. But when Germany invaded Poland they reacted and WWII was reached, who else would have reacted? France Singly? they were crushed anyway, Britain? they would have lost alone too. Russia? Perhaps. America? Only once all of Europe was wiped out and Hitler focused on global domination by attacking America. The answer is noone could have stood up to Germany for the sake of Europe.

Unless you get the united, concerted purpose and power of the great Governments of the world behind this settlement, it will fall down like a house of cards. There is only one power to put behind the liberation of mankind, and that is the power of mankind. It is the power of the united moral forces of the world, and in the Covenant of the League of Nations the moral forces of the world are mobilized. For what purpose?
from source www.firstworldwar.com/sou...eague.htm. (http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/wilsonspeech_league.htm.) ~~ Woodrow Wilson, American President.

Reflect, my fellow citizens, that the membership of this great League is going to include all the great fighting nations of the world, as well as the weak ones. It is not for the present going to include Germany, but for the time being Germany is not a great fighting country. All the nations that have power that can be mobilized are going to be members of this League, including the United States. (emphasis added by me)

however :
The country, whose president, Woodrow Wilson, had dreamt up the idea of the League - America - refused to join it. As America was the world’s most powerful nation, this was a serious blow to the prestige of the League. However, America’s refusal to join the League, fitted in with her desire to have an isolationist policy throughout the world.
source : www.historylearningsite.c...ations.htm (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/leagueofnations.htm)

Reason 1 why the League of Nations didn't work. The most powerful country in the world, who even thought the idea up, neglected to join.

3.
It is also believed by a very large number of disunited non-nations’ representatives who sit in a building beside the river in Manhattan and regularly attempt to control the United States.
www.garnertedarmstrong.ws/gtanews83.htm (http://www.garnertedarmstrong.ws/gtanews83.htm)

A measure of control? Sure, While Bush is in power America has invaded 2 countries. The fact is, noone has the power to stop America. Thats a fact. If, through some mistake of a country, America's military focus is presented on them, noone can save them. If America's Military focus is unjustly focused. There must be something more powerful than America to override America's decision? Perhaps ***edit*** Ll's (not Feuer's, sorry feuer thought i saw your name ! :) ) dislike of the UN is that it is the only thing that comes close to stopping America's Autonomy.

One nation controlling as much power to do with whatever they want is not healthy. If the shoe was on the other foot, and Russia had the most power, and America was second, im sure your line would be different, and a russian opinion would be exactly this. For it is exactly the same thing here, you are safe in the fact that your country is the most powerful, whereas what do other countries have to ensure their security? Answer : The United Nations.

So by disbanding the United Nations, it would be giving America Autonomy, and as in say a primary school situation, If one "bully" who is in fact of equal right to all of his other students, has control over the them all the same. To what extent would his control extend if there were no Teachers to tell him off?

and 4.
So how does the UN fit in?

They have chosen to take no side, if slightly on the Palestinian side, America on the other hand has chosen to side with Israel, whose side may be valid and just, but to call the Palistian Right "garbage" is wrong, "there are two sides to every story" Palestine has just as much right to be there as Israel does.

and to whoever answers this thread, flaming is useless, it only demonstrates your lack of intelligence. Thoughtful replies please!

Grumblin ~ Prophet.

Let me explain to you why the UN must go in one sentence.

The largest multi-national players in today's world order are also the only ones holding vetoes in the UN security council, which is the only organ (when united) that can grant the use of legitimate force within that same world order.

Let me explain to you what this means:

America wants to go boom boom? No one can unite to stop them because guess what... America has a veto in the UN security council.

Russia wants to go boom boom? No one can unite to stop them because guess what... Russia has a veto in the UN security council.

China wants to go boom boom? No one can unite to stop them because guess what... China has a veto in the UN security council.

France wants to go boom boom? No one can stop them (except possibly the EU) because guess what... France has a veto in the UN security council.

Great Britain wants to go... oh you get the idea.

Human beings have never and will never be capable of governing themselves.

Actually, it's completely opposite. Humans always will be governing themselves and others, as we have shown ourselves to be incapable of living in a system in which anarchy reigns. It is in and of itself a flawed concept.

--Cen

'The UN has become an the exact opposite of what it was intended to be, instead of fostering peace, it enables hatred'

- HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!
COMING FROM AN AMERICAN?!?!
ROFLMAO!!!!!

*Tell* me you see the irony in that one, LL.

You bore me Halo.
We shant speak again

*Tell* me you see the irony in that one, LL.

Let's say he doesn't. Why don't YOU see if you can post more than one line, and offer some support for your position?

Nahh, in retrospect...forget it. Asking you to do more than go, "HAHAHA, YOUR ARE DUMB. POT KETTLE BLACK. GIEV ME A BIG RUBBERY ONE. U TWAT", would be like "Crossing the streams" (Ghostbusters reference for the young'uns out there) and could have dire effects on the known universe.

Well Halo, if you were half the mentat you claim to be you'd read up on American History before you opened that pie hole of yours eh?

America has always fought to protect it's interests, whether domestic or abroad.

It was/is our manifest destiny. Perhaps if we hadn't had to suffer through so many years of Democratic ( the political party not the type of government btw) backboneless leadership you'd know this.

I realize you get a ton of your opinions from "pub" chat, but do study a lil before you flap your gob eh?

There is a difference between what the UN claims to be, and what ya'll think America is. The UN isn't supposed to have any self interests...think that one through eh?

Me, I'm tired of funding and supporting and being the might behind the UN. Only to have it spit on us and commen sense each and everytime.....Fuck, Libya??? Maybe your not old enough to remember Libya eh? It was a major player in terrorism....till they pissed on us once too many times. We helped'em see the error of their ways, but you forget that eh?

Fandros

Kivorn brought up the issue of security council vetoes making the security council nearly pointless. I agree with him. There should be a mechanism for overriding a veto, say a 5 to 1 ratio required.

The isolationist sentiment in the US after WWI was probably the main reason we did not join the League of Nations. Also, the US was NOT the most powerful country at that time. We had a large and decent navy by the end of the war, but the US army was ill equipped and dependent upon assistance from France and England during the war. The British Empire was still in its full glory and far outstripped the US in power and prestige. The US did not really become "uber" until late in WWII.

I don't think the UN is useless, but it certainly needs an overhaul. For one thing, the US and Japan are charged for far too much of the budget. Between those two countries, about 47% of the annual budget is accounted for. Seems a bit steep for me, especially with up and coming economies elsewhere in the far east not paying their fair share.

With regards to the Israelis, it is no surprise to me that they are targetted. There are only a few million of them with about a billion muslims wanting them gone for religious reasons. The muslims have the oil too. All Israel has to work with is a sense of guilt in the west for the holocaust and their own ingenuity. Guilt is a poor substitute for oil when it comes to garnering sympathy or support in the industrialized world.

It has been pointed out that Israel attacked first in 1967 and they are therefore the aggressors. I would point out they did not attack first in 1947 or 1956 or 1973. If you are surrounded by hostile countries who are massing armies openly for a new attack on your country, I think you can be cut some slack for taking tactical advantage in attacking first before it is too late to save yourself. Certainly the Arab countries made no effort to deny their intent to destroy Israel prior to the Israeli attack and by waiting for them to strike, Israel would likely have been wiped out.

As far as the Palestinian state merely being a tactic by the surrounding countries to regain land from Israel, maybe it started that way. I think the refugees have an expectation now that they will have their own country of Palestine and it will be difficult for Jordan to re-absorb them once that is accomplished (if it is accomplished).

Quoting Pratchett, "Multiple exclamation marks is a sure sign of a deranged mind".

WTF KIV!!!!!!!!!!

'Let's say he doesn't. Why don't YOU see if you can post more than one line, and offer some support for your position?'

- Because, as always, a euro-trash-liberal-scum-bag DOES, and then the replies given are "Wtf, here they go again.."

So let me try it: America does exactly what LL just claimed the UN does.
Proof?
Little thing called war over flimsy reasons?

Little thing called war over flimsy reasons?

Wow, truly overwhelming reasoning. You should quit your job and become a defense attorney. Barrister, or whatever they're called on that side of the pond.

That's the best you can do?

That's the best you can do?
How about .. thanks to the US we are now under a constant threat of terrorist attacks on our lives?

thanks to the US

What??
Ya ok.. Because there has NEVER been a terrorist attack before the Iraq thing, and Al-Queda didnt exist before the Iraq thing.
Because HOW many attacks have occured where you live since Iraq?

Newsflash sunshine.. Terrorist groups dont exist because of being angry over US invading Iraq.
They exist because of the very special blend of Pan-Arab nationalism and Extreme Islam.
If you arent Muslim, you are the same target before the attacks that you were after.. AS a matter of fact, since all those terrorists are concentrating so much on Iraq, you are probably LESS of a Target.

http://www.subversivecrossstitch.com/candyass.jpg

How about .. thanks to the US we are now under a constant threat of terrorist attacks on our lives?

Hahaha. Wait, wait, wait. America isn't the one carrying out terrorist attacks against your country. I'd have to say that Radical Islam is the root of that particular evil. We're just one of a few nations that decided to man up and go spank the necessary asses.

Buuuut, since you feel that is the case, try showing me the facts that you base that on. Try not confusing emotion with logic, and desire with reality like some high-school girl that watched Charlie's Angels a few too many times.

Either that, or declare a complete loss, and inability to defend your position by posting a silly picture. You already conceded defeat to LL.

Lleauaric ~ i don't think the question is in the existance of terrorist groups is a result of american intervention in the middle east, rather the activity of them.

www.ebayc.org/nexgenerati.../2002.html (http://www.ebayc.org/nexgeneration/magazine/06/war-on-terrorism/timeline/2002.html) ~ excellent read.

from that timeline alone it seems the al qaeda associated terrorist activity only started after US began to announce its intentions in Iraq. Other sources stating differences are welcome :)

Halo ~ while our opinions are similar your method sucks yo, work on it or something :(

al qaeda associated terrorist activity only started after US began to announce its intentions in Iraq

Exsqueeze me...I seem to remember an attack by them on a certain US warship and a couple of attacks on some buildings in New York...amoung others.

One could argue that failed US policy in region over decades contributed to the rise of terrorist activity, but to suggest that the US alone is responsible for al qaeda terrorist activity is ridiculous. Especially in the context you suggest...that it has only to do with the US activity in Iraq.

There are many contributing factors to the rise of AL Qaeda and terrorist activity. L2 mentioned a couple of them, though I think extreme Islam is something that the leaders of these group USE to get dolts to follow them at least as much it has lead to the rise of terrorist activity.

Interesting timeline coming from someone who can't fucking spell January.

'Halo ~ while our opinions are similar your method sucks yo, work on it or something'

- Your methods would be a little worn down if you'd spent the past 2 and a half years arguing with these Mini-Bushes, yo.

from that timeline alone it seems the al qaeda associated terrorist activity only started after US began to announce its intentions in Iraq. Other sources stating differences are welcome

if you look at it in terms of time period, the previous attacks were far spread out. I was not trying to point out that Al Qaeda terrorism itself started at this point, although my post does say this on reflection :( and I am not blaming america solely for the uprisal of Al Qaeda, all i am saying is that their decision to go into Iraq increased the occurance of terrorism per time ratio, of Al Qaeda as AngztGegner, or what i believe he meant.

September 26 - President Bush said "it's time to disarm Iraq -- no discussion, no debate, no negotiations.

October 8 - A U.S marine was killed today while undergoing a training operation in Kuwait. 2 gunmen drove up in a pick up truck and opened fire on a group of marines during the training.

October 9 - Experts believe that Al Qaeda is back to killing Americans. The gunmen who killed the marine in Kuwait yesterday were Al Qaeda. Last week, a bomb in Philippines killed a green beret- officials believe it was Al Qaeda's doing.

October 12 - Bombs went off in Bali, Indonesia in front of a nightclub killing more than 180. Officials say these may be terrorist attacks associated with Al Qaeda.

October 17 - CIA director George Tenet told congress that Al Qaeda is still aiming at the U.S and planning more terrorist attacks.

in less than one month after america announces it is going to invade iraq, 3 instances of terrorism occur, with the promise of more to come, all associated with Al Qaeda. Throughout the preceding months of that year however, there were several pre-emptive arrestings, which may have been accurate, but, according to this site alone, there was no terrorist activity by Al Qaeda.

So from this source i believe my statement that america openly declaring their intentions in Iraq increased activity tremendously in Al Qaeda terrorism is valid.

Look where these attacks ARE OCCURING..

Terrorists arent freedom fighters.. they arent heros.. THEY ARE MURDERERS..

Denied the opportunity to kill in America and Europe, they now kill on their "own soil".. Killing their own people..

While there are some things I disagree with about this war, it has done one thing..
It has brought the war back to where it has originated.

Lets Muslims deal with Muslim murderers.

You could argue that Al Qaeda attacks occurred almost daily during Afghanistan. Also, the frequency of attacks in Kashmir and Pakistan has been high for many years. You just don't hear about it as much because Americans are not the targets there.

Iraq is providing a focal point for terrorists, there is no doubt of that. But that is mainly because there are American forces there that can be easily attacked with a good chance of escape.

Al Qaeda desperately wants to use the whole notion of Islam vs infidels to propel themselves into power and spread their particular brand of theology. That is never going to change unless Al Qaeda's leadership is destroyed and the underlying resentment of the muslim world is addressed.

They should just let Doctor Phil talk to them. All the fighting would be over!

Your methods would be a little worn down if you'd spent the past 2 and a half years arguing with these Mini-Bushes, yo.

Woo-whooo it worked :'p

BTW, I for one hate Bush as much as anyone...just for the record.

"So from this source i believe my statement that america openly declaring their intentions in Iraq increased activity tremendously in Al Qaeda terrorism is valid."

"Experts believe that Al Qaeda is back to killing Americans. The gunmen who killed the marine in Kuwait yesterday were Al Qaeda. Last week, a bomb in Philippines killed a green beret- officials believe it was Al Qaeda's doing. "

They are targeting American's becuase they are convienient right now...close to home.


"October 12 - Bombs went off in Bali, Indonesia in front of a nightclub killing more than 180. Officials say these may be terrorist attacks associated with Al Qaeda."

This was aimed at Australian vacationers...not Americans btw.


Are their more attacks by Al qaeda on Americans right now because of the invasion of Iraq...yes...because we have a hundred thousand troops who make inviting targets for them right now.

"That is never going to change unless Al Qaeda's leadership is destroyed and the underlying resentment of the muslim world is addressed. "

Excelent point!! You don't do the latter by invading a muslim country though :'/ However, if a solid democratic government is set up and the quality of life in Iraq goes up (over what it was before the war)it could help the resentment. I no longer think this will happen, though I continue to hope it will....as I did before the war.

This was aimed at Australian vacationers...not Americans btw.

Exactly my point :(

How about .. thanks to the US we are now under a constant threat of terrorist attacks on our lives?


You could argue that Al Qaeda attacks occurred almost daily during Afghanistan.

Nod, again, America declaring war on a country. Pattern?

I think you are missing my general point though, its not that attacks on americans have increased, its the danger of attacks in the rest of the world has increased.

Mini-Bushes

haha.

I'm not sure that the danger of non Americans being attacked has increased so much as the fact that different nationalities are being attacked than was previously the case.

The fighting between muslim insurgents (assisted by Al Qaeda) and India has been going on steadily for decades. In Indonesia, Christian/Muslim conflict has also been going on for more than a decade. You have muslim seperatists backed by Al Qaeda regularly attacking the Philippines government. All being fed by Al Qaeda and all long prior to any US involvement. It's only now that westerners are being attacked too are you taking notice.

As far as the US attacking in Afghanistan, I don't think anyone can argue that it was not in self defense. The partnership between Al Qaeda and the Taliban is well documented and not really denied by anybody. If the US had not gone in there, more 9/11s would have been forthcoming. On the plus side, no Al Qaeda operations of the scope of 9/11 have been undertaken since that time. They are now targetting their fellow muslims as well in what I see as a desperate move to overthrow the Saudi government. I suspect times are hard in Al Qaeda land, much harder than is commonly acknowledged.

Again you emphasise my point, as the majority of the people here complaining are from western countries and are complaining about the further risk of terrorism in *their* country.

The war on afghanistan is a whole different matter, or the reasons behind it, or lack of reasons. My view ~ The 9/11 attacks were from that of an individualistic terrorist ~ Osama. Invading Afghanistan, who's country he simply visited, and they allowed him safe haven. There are probably some other underlying reasons but the way i see it it was just a way to vent america's frustration, as there were very few convicting ties between afghanistan and the 9/11 attacks. Im interested in this however, and any links regarding the reasons would be appreciated.

I think providing training camps and military facilities for Al Qaeda as well as arranged inter-marrying between Bin Laden's family and the leaders of the Taliban goes a little beyond "visiting" and "providing a haven". They were a close partnership and it is highly unlikely Osama could have carried out his programs without implicit Taliban acceptance and support. Certainly they had no inclination to cooperate in his apprehension after 9/11.

Grumblin..
I am dismayed at your complete lack of knowledge about the Taliban/Al-Queda link..
It was more than a "safe haven"

It was a full out partnership.

Afganistan has really one exportable product.. Heroin.
In 2000 it was estimated that Afganistan, under the Taliban, supplied more than 75% of the worlds herion supply.
But the Taliban was basically peasant guerilla fighters with some religious conceptions..
Where-O-Where did they find the international connections and network, sophisticated financial knowledge, and international know-how to run the largest drug production/running operation in the world? Dwarfing even the already established SE Asian ones?
Guess..
The Taliban didnt run shit. What Osama brought to his old friend and partner was group that COULD and DID run the country. College and Western Educated men who were highly capable and intelligent. Not the people who made up the Taliban.
The U.N. previously imposed sanctions on Afghanistan to try and force the Taliban to surrender suspected bin Laden, a Saudi national, to the United States or a third country for trial. U.S. officials accuse bin Laden of masterminding attacks on two U.S. embassies in Africa that killed 224 people.

But the Taliban refuses to surrender bin Laden, saying there is no proof he is a terrorist. Taliban officials also say bin Laden's movements and communications outside Afghanistan are controlled.

U.N. officials said the latest sanctions could end U.N.-sponsored talks aimed at ending the civil war between the Taliban and northern opposition forces.

"It is not going to facilitate our peace efforts, nor is it going to facilitate our humanitarian work," said U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan.
www.cnn.com/2000/ASIANOW/...index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2000/ASIANOW/central/12/19/afghanistan.taliban/index.html)
Extremely tight electronic surveillance of the five groups operating in Macedonia points to their commanders and operations officers taking delivery of orders every few days. However, from the second half of August, the surveillance monitors picked up unusual bustle. They believe it was set up by instructions to al Qaeda personnel to take out of storage some 200 tons of heroin and opium hidden in a local Macedonian village or hiding place in the mountains. The narcotics were smuggled into Macedonia in the winter via Central Asia, Bulgaria and Croatia. Al Qaeda chose Macedonia as its central transit point for drug smuggling into Europe because it is already the main conduit for South American cocaine and heroin destined for Western Europe.

The enormous Macedonia drug cache, destined to be Osama bin Ladens Christmas-New Year gift for Western Europe, may account for the UN and other reports published this week that his organization is again flush with funds and free to strike. US intelligence learned of the order to begin moving out the drugs from local informers who reported a general call-up of al Qaeda, Hizballah, Iranian and Saudi operatives and hirelings to load up the narcotics for transfer from their hiding places to the Albanian mafia for shipment to West European markets.

DEBKA-Net-Weeklys sources in Western Europe report that the Albanian mafia this year completed its takeover of 75 percent of Londons brothels and prostitute smuggling traffic. The brothels serve also as distribution centers for the al Qaeda drugs brought out of Macedonia.

Also look up "Tears of Allah"..

It was a full out partnership.

Like the US had with Osama? Or like the US had with Saddam? Maybe the way the US had a partnership with a lot of other dictators/murderers/terrorists???

Oh and ...

Afganistan has really one exportable product.. Heroin

The Islamic "jihad" was supported by the United States and Saudi Arabia with a significant part of the funding generated from the Golden Crescent drug trade:

The history of the drug trade in Central Asia is intimately related to the CIA's covert operations. Prior to the Soviet-Afghan war, opium production in Afghanistan and Pakistan was directed to small regional markets. There was no local production of heroin. 11 In this regard, Alfred McCoy's study confirms that within two years of the onslaught of the CIA operation in Afghanistan, "the Pakistan-Afghanistan borderlands became the world's top heroin producer, supplying 60 percent of U.S. demand. In Pakistan, the heroin-addict population went from near zero in 1979... to 1.2 million by 1985 -- a much steeper rise than in any other nation":12

Like the US had with Osama? Or like the US had with Saddam?

Which obligates us to clean up said mess. Which we're doing. Now you're bitching further. No pleasing some people. Especially the stupid ones. (Psst - That was me inferring you are quite the dullard, in case you missed it.)

Maybe the way the US had a partnership with a lot of other dictators/murderers/terrorists???

Where are you from again? God knows what could be dug up about the history of your country.

Oh yeah, and I noticed you still haven't answered my last post questioning you on whether radical islamic fundamentalists are to blame for terrorism "in your country", or if it is indeed some turban-wearing Navy SEAL Team. Here is what you said, because I'm sure you forgot to anwer because you were too busy, not because you realized you were unable to defend your assinine statement:

How about .. thanks to the US we are now under a constant threat of terrorist attacks on our lives?

Hmm .. IRA, RAF, ETA and I can name a lot of other terrorist groups that have nothing to do with the Islam.
Also being an Islamic does not make you a terrorist .. and where did you say that? You didn't, I am just pointing it out t ya ..

Oh and indeed some CIA agents are Ex Seals and they are cooperating and assisting terrorists .. in case you didn't know.

How did I aquire all this knowledge? I sucked it out of my big ass toe...

I do not need to explain myself or my motives to point out that the CIA used and supported Terrorists and still do .. I do not have to defend myself or my country to say so ...
And so I won't.

Now unless you have anything else I will go back to playing games again .. but thanks for trying to defend what's wrong by pointing your littley finger at someone else...

Oh and indeed some CIA agents are Ex Seals and they are cooperating and assisting terrorists .. in case you didn't know.

Oh for the love of Christ...

Ok sir.. Please step 4 rows down and to the left.. your seats are in the "Hartmut" section. I think youll enjoy the topic they are discussing. "How Aliens from Area51 under the direction of the CIA, cloned Hitler and created Osama" Please remember to wear your tinfoil hat..

Please remember to wear your tinfoil hat..

Seriously.

First off everyone should know that just about all other countries hate the U.S. until it needs us, save for Britian. Second off I just read where Annan is wanting to reform the U.N.

If you want more info on the go here Herding cats at the U.N. (http://www.msnbc.com/news/992546.asp?0bl=-0)

I know alot of you on this string have a problem with one liners, but there's no point in me trying to argue my ideals with others because i can never put what i want to say down it words and have it come out right.

I don't like that the US is the worlds police but it's just something that goes along with having the power and the conscious we have.

So just remember this, what would the rest of the world do if the US wasn't the power it is. I don't agree with some of the things we do but i don't believe the US wants to take over the world like some of these other countries do.

Anyway, that's it from me. Please go read the MSN story, it may show you that there are some countries that are to immature to have the power we have.

::knows she bounced around, but always doesn't when it comes to politics::
-----------------------

As for you Mr./Mrs. AngztGegner you sit back and say you shouldn't have to defend yourself or your county but expect us to do just that for America. Your allegations against our CIA are ludicrous and unless you can show some form of proof I'm just going to assume you're from some National Enquirer type paper trying to turn Americans against their own beloved country.

-----------------------

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>AngztGegner Total Posts :: 27 Member Since :: October 3, 2003 (Global User) <hr></blockquote>

Why is it every time we finally put to rest various gross misconceptions and point out the glaring errors in every focal point of Euro-trash anti-American sentiment, a new troll pops up and forces us to copy and paste what we've gone over, what...7 times now?

Fuck, Angzt, why not just try to call us evil incarnate for dropping the bomb on Japan. It's not like we haven't Grand Theft Auto 3'd that fucking horse to death.

Why is it every time we finally put to rest various gross misconceptions and point out the glaring errors in every focal point of Euro-trash anti-American sentiment, a new troll pops up and forces us to copy and paste what we've gone over, what...7 times now?

Ex-Navy Seals and CIA agents are training them and then planting them into the boards with masked IP addresses and forged registration codes!


Seriously.... the mess in Iraq is going to take years to clean up, and the worst thing the US could do is withdraw early (read: before the country is rebuilt and can run itself). That is perhaps the best way to allow all the people who are waiting for us to fall on our faces a chance to say "I told ya so".

First off everyone should know that just about all other countries hate the U.S. until it needs us

Bullshit. America as a nation is loved by millions worldwide.
If you're talking about the recent anti-american sentiments, they've mostly been spurred by the current administration and its policies.
I'd suggest taking a look at the current political and business relations between for instance the up and coming asian powers, where very prosperous connections have recently been made. Or hey I know, go ask the fledgling african nations if they'd be happy to give up the financialaid they recieve. Sure, they're like kids on welfare... but you get a bunch of puppy love for it.

The article you linked was an example of the messed up veto-ruled security council's procedures, and the complications of UN beaurocracy. I fail to find any part of it that points towards hatred against america. Unless you count the conflicts and diplomatic procedings of the inner workings of the UN - in which I'd like to point out to you that you're representing a country who vetoes its own resolution proposals to avoid them being shot down. Your shit stinks as much as anyone elses'.
"Immature"? How's that for irony?

Where would the world be without the US? Who knows? Who cares? The US is here, and is probably here to stay for yet a while. Personally, I think you should take some classes in international politics before you start in on the heavy stuff.

I am not European .. but the rest is close to perfect.

Wow what a political question is the UN dead?

Well in terms of a puppet for the US, then yes it is.
a few things to clarify, The US didn't cause the terrorist attacks, they have just helped them. Supporting some of the fundamentalist groups years before they became a threat, wasn't entirely the right thing to do, but there was either financial or political gain to be had.

Then on the other hand the US has also done its part to fix its own mistakes, but can you blame the rest of the world being cynical? Patriotism aside, think about it.

This is not a US bash at all, I like you guys. You make the rest of the western world feel better about themelves, that they are not living where you are.

Well first of all.. you live in Australia (I think) So EVERYONE wants to live there.. You dont need any other reason than You live in Australia.. and the rest of us dont.. So fuck you. (No im not bitter, its November in New England... I LOVE the color grey)

I dont think the UN is a puppet for anyone.. at least a dedicated one.. All it really is a rubber stamp.
The concern to me with it is that it is how easily manipulated it is.. Yet can still give the illusion of global will.
There is one succesful branch.. the medical branch of the UN does some damn good work.. Every other wing is an abject failure in every way.

To address your other point.. 30 years ago the major threat to the West was the spread of Communism.. As global changes were occuring in governments across the world, the stakes were as high as they could possibly be.
Communism really couldnt last without a larger network of nations, all under the flag of a common ideology. The Middle East was the big prize.. Russia never had the capital to go into Siberia and take advantage of the HUGE natural resources there... Communism needed to take over already built networks, such as the ones in Oil Producing Arab nations.
So for the US, the choice was complicated. While Democracy is the MOST desireable form of government... It is almost Impossible to implant into cultures without a tradition.
So do they try to install a government that is doomed to fail?
Do they do nothing and allow the Soviet Union to fuel revolution unchecked?
Or do they support a third choice? Military Dictators loyal to whoever is paying the most atm? And we win that race.
In other areas we allowed or encouraged Religious forces to fight against communism... Islam and Communism were natural foes because of perception that Communism was an enemy of Religion.
"Religion is an Opiate for the Masses" ect ect..

A more ruthless government might have allowed these people to fight for them , then crushed them utterly after the job was done... we didnt... we allowed the Mujahideens to exist.
Now we have to crush these radical forces, grind them into the ground.. who knows what thats going to spawn in 50 years...

As far as thanking you dont live here.. >shrug< This isnt a bad place to live. And why does every single Australian who becomes famous move here and marry and raise their children here?
Additionally... You feel the presence of government less there than in most western countries..
I pay about 19% of my gross pay to taxes, can you say that? Some European nations pay about 50%
And yes me and family (like 90%) have full medical and dental coverage, have money being put away for retirement, have alot of income to invest in the economy..
Voice of Reason (http://washingtontimes.com/world/20031124-110833-1781r.htm)
Australians work 170 days out of the year JUST to pay taxes.. Americans work 73..

First off everyone should know that just about all other countries hate the U.S. until it needs us

I'm not going to defend my oppinion to someone that is so egar to jump on someone. So there's nothing else going to be said about this

The article you linked was an example of the messed up veto-ruled security council's procedures, and the complications of UN beaurocracy. I fail to find any part of it that points towards hatred against america.

As for this little bit of steam. I never said the article was going to show that. I told people Annan was wanting to reform the UN and for more information to read the article.

"Immature"? How's that for irony?

My immaturity comment was about the Russian guy walking around the UN with his butt in the air. Nor did i ever ask "Where the world would be without the US", what i said is what would the world do if the US wasn't the power it is, because trust me not many countries... if any... would do the things we are doing. Now, to the and I quote "Your shit stinks as much as anyone elses", there is no reason for you to attack my views like you did". So what if their not what you think, or not what is not in the "polls". I'm going by what I see with my eyes and what I see with my eyes is that alot of the world is not happy with the US.

My suggestion to you, if you plan to respond to this post, and I'm rather sure you are going to, is to read my post carefully and not to put words in my mouth. There is no reason that I should have to protect my views on how people see the US. Yes i'm very happy to live where I live. There's no where else in the world I would like to live, and nowhere did I attack the US or other Americans, Therefore take your anger about what is being said out on someone else.

GFP2k3!

' And why does every single Australian who becomes famous move here and marry and raise their children here? '

- Rofl. America MUST be the best place to live, then.

Well Halo it's really case by case isn't it?

For myself, I would vote to really put a limit on immigrations to America...

Getting crowded ovah heah!

Fandros

Thread got hijacked at some point into an America hate thread :

The UN is an ideal, i believe the principal that they must be there, as a representation of all the countries in the world, to make the final decision, because a global dictatorship wouldnt be right.

a little anecdote ~

If some nutter gets the position of president of lets say, Russia, brown-noses his way into the position and completely abuses his power by creating lies and invading random countries, pulls the whole deal of propaganda and shit, claming russians have been killed there and writing everything that the said country replies off as lies ~ in order to claim more land, or oil, im curious to know whether the average russian would see through the facade, and if they didnt, and russia goes through with the invasion, yet there is protest all around the globe. Should not the representatives of the countries of the world be able then to at least attempt to stop the unjust war that will ensue? ( This is all assuming Russia is the major power, might be hard to comprehend, but its an anecdote. )

The answer is yes, and this is what the UN was set up to do. Perhaps they have become corrupt, but abolishing them is not the answer. If anything they need to be made stronger, and purged of politics and renounce the veto rule. Perhaps have a system of voting in which countries are given a points score for their vote in terms of power. Therefore the major powers would still have a large say, but if the majority of the rest of the globe is against them, the action must be overruled.

Problem Grumblin is who decide who gets how many "points" in terms of power. I agree the UN is about as worthless as an old angry dog with no teeth. Full of piss and vinegar but no bite. I do think the whole veto thing needs to be reworked, possibly giving the power to all member of the security council or removing it entirely I don't know.

Personally, I'm not sure what to do with the UN, other than to say there are problems with it. Real ideas to fix it are for those better educated than myself with an undergade degree.

ROFLMAO

Defensive, aren't you Shynia?

Of course, if you're not prepared to defend your views (in a political debate no less) you'd do well to be weary of waters where people who find such things extremely intriguing lurk. You took my post in an extremely defensive manner, and hey, that's your prerogative, but I'm not interested in obliterating your opinions. Keep 'em. But make sure you yourself know why you harbor them, and that they're based on reality. In the end I won't waste a second's thought to feeling guilt over that you weren't happy with my argumentation.

If you feel you're misunderstood, clarify. But don't be scared of people argumenting against you. Take it to heart and try to see our point, or try to see yourself from a stranger's angle. If you've done that, then you can write us off as proper wankers.

FEN is da man! G4P2K4!

GFP2K4!

I am sure you pay less taxes, Australia is one of the most over govenerned (and hence most taxed) nations in the world. It was only a joke.

We do have a very high living standard. We don't don't pay 50% taxes. We have a 10% GST + I am paying about 23% of my income in taxes.

but anyway... lets stop arguing on this stupid notice board and go get some ph4ts baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KIV! You playing again?

Now it's S4P2k4!

Haha no.
Not playing again =)
I don't even miss the game.

People like you make me sick,fucking nationalist....
Your points are as irrelevant as they are inept.

People like you,Marz and a few other rednecks that i can`t think of shame other US citizens with your 'totalitarian under the guise of patriotism' type posts...
Btw,the US recently lifted the ban on steel imports after we threatened to ban import of orange juice.Ohh well you can`t win them all can you...

The only reason i`m even replying is because i`m so bored and have nothing else of interest too occupy my time.Don`t think it`s because you have a valid point,because,simply put,...you don`t.It`s mindless hate driven garbage,if i hadn`t met and talking to many other americans net dorks like you would make me hate the USA.Thankfully i don`t pay much heed to morons spouting BS.
Please feel free to come back with some droll attempt at witticism,it`ll give me a laugh at least.

Mr. Anon #2! Yaya you fricken coward.

:lol

Aesahaetr shut the fuck up. You havent even participated in this thread. Though even if you did, your points and opinions are invalid just becuase I say they are. (Look at me I can be baseless, and pointless too!)

GOGO ANON NERDS.

The only reason i`m even replying is because i`m so bored and have nothing else of interest too occupy my time

Life must really suck for you.

Don`t think it`s because you have a valid point,because,simply put,...you don`t

WOW! With that, you have made me realize that I don't! Thank you, oh great one.

Please feel free to come back with some droll attempt at witticism,it`ll give me a laugh at least.

Don't worry. We will entertain you while you sit around your worthless life, poking the tigers with a stick for shits and giggles.

Aesahaetr shut the fuck up.

I`d say make me,but seeing as it`s obvious you can`t,nor could if i was stood right next to you.So i`ll refrain from doing so.

(Look at me I can be baseless, and pointless too!)

You are always are :D

GOGO ANON NERDS.

That should be your slogan,in case you failed to notice you`re anon too...don`t say you`re not.Give me your real name,picture,full address,etc and i`ll admit you`re not.

Life must really suck for you.

Umm,no...but it could be soo much better with a few small additions.Your BMW would be a good start,care to donate it ?

WOW! With that, you have made me realize that I don't! Thank you, oh great one.

Thank you,i try...

Don't worry. We will entertain you while you sit around your worthless life, poking the tigers with a stick for shits and giggles.

Lol,that one was actually funny.Pretty poor analogy though.Somehow a bunch of net-whiners(tm) doesn`t quite seem comparable to a graceful beast of the wild.I think terrier would be more adequate,seeing as you`re all bark and no bite. :)

I used to give a shit about these debates. But now except for a select few individuals (yourself not included), they are all pointless bullshit that usually winds down to "amerkia are the suk" and tends to bring the bitches like yourself out of the wood work in some pathetic attempt to hurl more bullshit on top of the pile.

Your definition of Anon must be different from everybody else's. It generally refers to people knowing your in-game name. But since the shit just attracted you out of the gutter, I'll let it slide.

Actually I'm getting ready to sell my car for a 545i. I can cut you a low low *crazy armenian car salesman voice* friends price. (Which includes a block of C4 wired into the ignition system for your first drive). So you can have an explosively good driving experience.

Bunch of net whiners. Now does that include yourself? Because in this thread it's all you have done.

All bark and no bite? Far better than come up out of the sewer, start some shit, and go right back down.

Jeezus you're like a dumber, softer KMA.

I used to give a shit about these debates.
Umm this isn`t a debate,it`s a mindless flame fest remember ? Sheesh.
Also i find it highly amusing that you ever gave a shit about anything anyone said on the net.Though it`s not exactly suprising given your level of mentality.

Your definition of Anon must be different from everybody else's. It generally refers to people knowing your in-game name. But since the shit just attracted you out of the gutter, I'll let it slide.
As i said before.You`re just as anon as i am.Seeing as how my name is/was my game name... :D

Actually I'm getting ready to sell my car for a 545i. I can cut you a low low *crazy armenian car salesman voice* friends price. (Which includes a block of C4 wired into the ignition system for your first drive). So you can have an explosively good driving experience.
Completly lacking any humor,must try harder (F).Surely you could`ve thought of something even slightly more amusing than that ?

Bunch of net whiners. Now does that include yourself? Because in this thread it's all you have done.
I`m aM3rI(@ h@tiN remember ? pay attention...

All bark and no bite? Far better than come up out of the sewer, start some shit, and go right back down.
Yup,you are.Also,i could`ve sworn i was sitting in the drawing room...maybe it`s just got good interior deco :)

Jeezus you're like a dumber, softer KMA.
1) I was around before KMA :)
2) I would consider that a very slight compliment! seeing as KMA PwNs you all on multiple occasions.

Don`t post anymore,you`re above it,remember ?

P.S Despite your best efforts you`ve not come remotely close to insulting me,better luck next time ehh...

How bout a simple:

Fuck off

(with a happy face for good measure)

:)

I find it very amusing that you have the time to reply to my posts in such detail. Must be a slow day in the chair sitting business.

Fair`s fair.

Btw wtf is with the paddle shift/switch-tronic,man i thought you said you could drive...

Also,you said you were thinking of getting another ?


http://www.alpina.de/deutsch/automobile/Bilder/button_01.jpg

You don`t get the fun of tuning yourself,but they damn sure do a better job than you can :) No offence intended,..for once

The SMG Transmission is attached to the M54B3.0/race motor. The paddles control the shifts.

By the way Alpina is one of the "softest" tuners there is. Renowned for being the gentlemen's tuner/cars, not really my cup of tea.

Anyway try again with the anon insults from the safety of your chair, it's amusing coming from someone with no license, no car, and nothing better to do.

Softest ? Heh i truely never thought i`d ever hear that expression used to describe alpina.But you own a BMW with TTG(my own abbreviation) so i guess it`s a gimmie.

Anyway try again with the anon insults from the safety of your chair, it's amusing coming from someone with no license, no car, and nothing better to do.

You`re right about the first one,and partly correct about the third.I don`t exactly have alot of interesting stuff to do,most of the things i do outside my house involve breaking laws (but not the hurting people kind fyi)
I was driving tonight,in a shed of a sierra with steering so slack it`s like trying to pull a tank around a corner with some string...Ohh well
I envy you for being an IT geek,no really.Makes you the cash to have expensive hobbies.I Don`t respect you,but envy is almost as good right ?

Score 1 for the Marzipan man

Not really your cup of tea ? wtf don`t steal english expressions,use your own nations :b ( sly bit of H@|-|te A/\/\3Ri(a thrown in there for ya ;)
Anyhoo,you still have more money and a better ride than i do,soo that makes you better right ? i`ll just shut up now master marz00rZ!1

Ohh wait i`m mssing bowling for columbine typing this pointless shit.