www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/S...31,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,970331,00.html)

George Wright
Wednesday June 4, 2003

Oil was the main reason for military action against Iraq, a leading White House hawk has claimed, confirming the worst fears of those opposed to the US-led war.

The US deputy defence secretary, Paul Wolfowitz - who has already undermined Tony Blair's position over weapons of mass destruction (WMD) by describing them as a "bureaucratic" excuse for war - has now gone further by claiming the real motive was that Iraq is "swimming" in oil.

The latest comments were made by Mr Wolfowitz in an address to delegates at an Asian security summit in Singapore at the weekend, and reported today by German newspapers Der Tagesspiegel and Die Welt.

Asked why a nuclear power such as North Korea was being treated differently from Iraq, where hardly any weapons of mass destruction had been found, the deputy defence minister said: "Let's look at it simply. The most important difference between North Korea and Iraq is that economically, we just had no choice in Iraq. The country swims on a sea of oil."



can i say "hail to the thief" ?

It's funny how only German tabloids pick up on your "news" Hartmut.

Wait a minute, no it isn't.

*coughs*

http://www.chronwatch.com/editorial/contentDisplay.asp?aid=2971

Might wanna check up on your sources Hartmut. Not only was Wolf misquoted, but his statement was taken completely out of context.

I think the term you're looking for Hartmut is 'omg I got pwned!"

Haha...hartmut's an idiot.

Thats a given. I get a good laugh out of his posts.


Ibudin

Hartmut looks awfully funny with that huge fishing hook sticking outta his mouth.

Gods, by the looks of it he's an easily caught fish. Just use anything as bait that even slightly reeks of AntiAmerican and he'll jump on it.

Poor stupid fish...

Fandros

quoted from the page Amerikkka.




God Bless Amerikkka


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To the true patriots:

America is the greatest country on Earth. We have guaranteed free speech, freedom to vote, do not have to fear the retaliation of the state for political activity, and can purchase whatever material comforts we want. We promote this ideal of democracy and freedom across the globe.

If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

Consider the recent excursion to Iraq, beginning in 1990. There, we were told, we defended the Kuwaiti people from the invasion of that menacing Iraqi villain, Saddam Hussein. Of course it should be pointed out that Saddam Hussein was armed and installed in power by the United States government, and whatever military might he has was given to him by the American government. We went to Kuwait, not because Saddam dared to encroach on the territory of another sovereign nation (if so, we would have done something when American-trained and armed Indonesians slaughtered East Timorese in 1999), not because we felt for the suffering of a group of people (if so, we would have stopped the sale of weapons to the Turks, who are currently the top U.S. arms client, when they began slaughtering Kurds), and not because we wanted to stop a dangerous regional superpower from crushing our allies (if so, we would not have armed the thug in the first place). The fact is, we went to Iraq because Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait directly threatened our oil interests, and that could not be tolerated. So we went in, burned their oil fields, bombed the people of Baghdad, cut off their food and medical supply, and left them to starve for ten years. The death toll from our economic sanctions against the Iraqi people is approaching two million - near Holocaust proportions. So much for ‘Never again’.

If you are under the illusion that the Iraqi people deserve their fate, let me correct that illusion: The Iraqi people, unfortunately, live under a dictator, who keeps his power through force of arms (given to him by the United States). After the Gulf War, the Iraqi people arose in rebellion against Saddam Hussein. President Bush promised them help in their struggle, but gave none. He withdrew without even attempting to depose Hussein and left the Iraqi people to be slaughtered by Saddam’s men. Why did he do this? Because a dictator, even a hostile one, would be better for United States interests than popular rule. (Observe our support of Saudi Arabia, an oppressive dictatorship with one of the worst human rights records in the region.) So much for the ideal of ‘democracy’.

We sent a million troops to Iraq. Ten thousand of them are now dead of a disease the United States Department of Defense claims is psychosomatic. Vets with ‘Gulf War Syndrome’ are given Prozac instead of life-saving antibiotics, and attempts to secure medication that has been demonstrated to cure their ailment are stymied by the same government they fought for in Iraq, because that government wishes to cover up its culpability in their illness: they wish to hide the fact that the biological weapons sold in 1989 by a company in which President George Bush held stock to Saddam Hussein were the same biological weapons used against our own troops. They wish to hide the use of U-238 (“depleted uranium”) in the tanks and weapons the soldiers used, which not only poisons the soil of foreign nations for years to come, but kills our own soldiers at the same time. So much for looking out for ‘our boys’.

Where to not start on the home front, where free speech has been sold to the highest bidder, and how all of what is written above has been kept from you by a corrupt and state-friendly news media that seeks to keep the American people in ignorance. The owner of the Washington Post said this about media in America: “There are some things the general public does not need to know and shouldn’t. I believe democracy flourishes when the government can take legitimate steps to keep its secrets and when the press can decide whether to print what it knows.” Tom Brokaw of NBC (owned by weapons manufacturer General Electric) said this about the freedom of information on the Internet: “We can’t let that generation and a whole segment of the population just slide away out to the Internet and retrieve what information it wants without being in on it.” Soon they’ll add a new one to the Bill of Rights: You have the right to have your thoughts controlled.

Ask yourself, before you bow down in unquestioning obeisance to the American flag, what are you bowing to? Are you bowing before that ideal of freedom and democracy? Or are you bowing to a government that represents the corruption and betrayal of that ideal? If you truly love what this country is supposed to represent, you won’t pay homage to the flag of the American government.

You will burn it.




im not callin it fact... its just a quote.. a good one and prolly explains why americans arent the favorites the the eyes of non americans.

hard to guess who is the most stupid ...

i vote the american public brainwashed and manipulated with fear of non-existant WOMD .

the iraq war had many reason , but none of them have to do with a "serious" threat to america , unless you believe in schizophrenic phobias spilled out by the TV all day ... there is not much about russian, chinese or north korean A-bombs which targetting cities in Us of A in the news. even if n-korea might be a serious threat to usa , its very calm and quiet about and around this topic ;)

turn off your TV and read some books how the human brain works and how human brains "learn" all the TV bullshit, then you will find out rather fast that there are certain "feelings" like fear, anger and hate can be utilized easily by skilled persons to manipulate the people and create a very strange environment of selected information awareness which is leading to funny paranoia.

the war was about oil and money , the iraq is open now to make big robberies ...err deals , before the war all the oilindustry was in hands of the government. you cannot make big money with installing a real democracy fast , that would be way too much transparency and would maybe result that the people vote against american political puppets.


there are no free votes in iraq and not planned for the next years. the military is controlling the country NOT the iraqi people . iraqis attacking american military personel almost every day.
where is the democracy in iraq ?? its all a big joke .


some request to the people which call me names , please call me anti-bloodystupid rather than antiamerican.

All I know is it only costs me $7.50 for a fillup now, and I couldn't be happier. : )

And to top it off Hartmut you fucking quote Stalin...

Oh yes, you are truely the enlightened one amongst us.

What's next, direct text from Hitler to show us the bright side to genocide??

Fandros

im not callin it fact... its just a quote.. a good one

I quote isn't very good if it doesn't contain any truth. Just about the only true statement in that entire quote is the first sentence.

HARTMUT!
Of course the war wasn't fake! Damn you for thinking it!
I mean.. just look at all the WoMD they uncovered.
How can you even think that the war served another purpose besides the removal of WoMD?!
Damnit!

All I know is it only costs me $7.50 for a fillup now, and I couldn't be happier.

Word.

Now why is it that if you are american and don't agree with Harmut and the other anti war folks you are brain washed? Because they say so, or because you obviously can't think for yourself or because they are unable to actually understand that there exist people who believed that what the Coalition did was right.

10 bills last me two weeks now, yar!

Must feel nice you only need to kill a few people to get cheap gasoline ....

Stupid posts from Hartmut make me wish Germany had not fallen before we invented the bomb.

Gee Hartmut, how do you find the time to dig up these articles AND train everyone within 20 feet of you? Youre amazing.


Oh and for the record, nice titties Ytrok.

Master Damoiel Mindbend
Retired Enchanter of the 60th Season

Okey Slant, it's time for you to stop using that image unless you can start not including it when it lengthens the size of your post

Hehe why is no one saying anything about treistaania post. Its huge its correct but somehow all the americans are skipping it.

You see the problem that make you look like real retards its comment like the one you said about a fill up. Honestly its just not brainwashing, its just a complete conditioning since you were born. How to learn to be an ignorant and stay it.

And to top it off Hartmut you fucking quote Stalin...

Oh yes, you are truely the enlightened one amongst us.

What's next, direct text from Hitler to show us the bright side to genocide??

Just because the quote originated with an evil dictator does not necessarily mean it's respectively awful. I mean, it takes a fair amount of brains to gain the status of a great villain in the annals of history (barring inherited power, as in Nero's case). The given quote is actually kind of interesting. Thus the sig does not reflect on Hartmut's intelligence.

The problem is that circumstances are quite the opposite in his actual posts :p

Must feel nice you only need to kill a few people to get cheap gasoline ....

Fuck yeah. I was able to go to McDonalds, -twice- this week.

Every time i read what you post I am glad I am not a christian like you Zehn.... Must be a real thrill to see how God will judge you when your time comes and you need to explain your cold hardiness(sp?) about murdering people who did nothing wrong to you only so you can drive a 4x4 and can go to Mc Donalds 2times.

And I'll be like, "It was a joke you moron!" and he'll be like, "oh, okay...well, that's cool. Now, about this porn collection I hear so much about..."

Tough talk ... for a pussy.

Pretty much yeah. I fear pain.

Kinu, just for you I'll respond to one aspect of Treist's post, since it's pertinent. In several places, this gem of an essay states that the US armed Saddam. However, as has been pointed out in this same forum innumerable times, a significant portion of Iraq's military might was in weapons acquired from other countries...such as France.

Yeah thats actually kinda interesting. I mean why harp on the US having armed Iraq? They drove Russian tanks/APCs, the majority of casualties/tanks the US lost were from Russian anti-tank rockets, the Iraqi Air Force was all MiG's from what I understand... So how exactly did we arm them? Maybe Im missing something.

Master Damoiel Mindbend
Retired Enchanter of the 60th Season

You have to give Kinu pause.

If you knew the books he reads you'd understand why he has the perceptions he has.

Fandros

Hey Kinu dumbass -- try and read. His quote has about one truth to it: "America is the greatest country on Earth."

Why bother adressing her post? It's so far out in left field even she doesn't believe it("im not callin it fact"). The only people ignorant enough to really latch onto it seem to be from your continent.

Here's a quote from her posting Kinu. I'll address it, it's one of two lines in the post that are so fucking outrageous it makes me wanna just ignore the entire script...


"They wish to hide the use of U-238 (“depleted uranium”) in the tanks and weapons the soldiers used, which not only poisons the soil of foreign nations for years to come, but kills our own soldiers at the same time. So much for looking out for ‘our boys’.


Utter bullshit, we're not hiding the use of Depleted uranium at all. Fuck go buy a pilot simulator of the A10, it FUCKING TELLS YOU what's used as ammo.

Oh and btw, I work on military aircraft around said deadly material daily for almost 20 year ...have for years and my health and everyone I know is just fine. Funny since that shit is supposed to be killing me...

As for another line that read antibiotics would save folks from Gulf War Syndrome....

That's a fucking out right lie, it's not a known pathogen at all. Yet this jackass claims a simple antibiotic would cure it..??

So, the original poster of that quote Treis used is a fucking up in the night liar.

But as usual, the bait is taken by folks who live in countries that add nothing to the global good but words and hateful sentiment.

Tell ya what antiAmerican folks, do something to better this world. Put out equal amounts of cash that we do to countries suffering. Show up when someone's country has been overrun and help push out the invader. Put forth the roadmap in hopes of solving a million year war....oh wait, you rather just constantly fucking critique America, a land you know NOTHING about.

Or just shut the fuck up and eat cake...

Fandros

I <3 Fandros.

'Tell ya what antiAmerican folks, do something to better this world'

- Like bombing every country in the Middle East in hopes of removing some terrorist/regime elements that you unsucessfully are able to achieve, in the cover of a purpose like WoMD which proves to be false, leaving the countries in poverty and humanitarian crisis, and then moving on in hopes everyone forgets, to the next country?
*tear forms* I wish we could all be this dedicated.

Hartmut you're a brainwashed moron. Communism sucks ass. Look how fast Germany and France have come back to sucking America's dick again now that they have lost all the money they were making off the incredibly misnamed "Oil for Food" program. Hypocritical pieces of shit. That quote from "Amerikka" is so full of mistakes, presumptions and nonsense I won't even bother to argue with it.

By the way dumbfucks... look whats happening between Palestine and Israel the last few days. Once again there's hope to begin moving toward a solution. This was brought about by the US, in a great part due to the victory in Iraq and a new paradigm present in the middle east. Meanwhile French and German foreign ministers are still meeting with fucking Yassir Arafat instead of Mazen. Arafat is still saying the same old shit, Mazen yesterday called for an end to the intifada, and called on all Palestinians to recognize the suffering of the Jews throughout history and to begin to work toward living together.

Wow winterworg so l33t. You think they will actually listen mazen hehe? He ll die probably soon to terrorist act sadly.

France did equip iraki army some but not with chimical stuff :) Only gazelle copters and some tanks/weapons(I m sure on copters not sure no the rest). You see the problem is you hear something on TV and you eat it like nice sheeps. Whatever floats for your boat anyway, think what you want as long as you are happy with it.

You really need to read how bush company was saved by ben laden :) its pretty interesting but I m sure some of you will come up with some bs arguement. After all the fact that it lowered the gas price by a lot had nothing to do with the war in irak :) It was all about saving iraki people!!!! oh wait I thought it was about WOMD!! Oh well gogo americans you know there are a lot of countries that could use your mighty help against dictators... Well exept they don't have any oil but naturally you don't care about oils right ? ) gogo Supermen of the world.

Not posting against on this thread, have a good day.

France did equip iraki army some but not with chimical stuff


Oh no, your current president was only responsible for jumpstarting their nuclear program. Give me a break, do I fuckin have to give you the count of all the shit your country gave them, to compare to the 20 early 1950s tanks they got from the US..you know, again ?


*tear forms* I wish we could all be this dedicated.


Yourself for example. You can't get your own pussy to stop hurting over the people on the island next to you. How about your Irish freedom fighter buddies Halo?

You think they will actually listen mazen hehe? He ll die probably soon to terrorist act sadly.

This is exactly why all the western powers need to support him. Splitting up the Palestinian people will do nothing good.

You really need to read how bush company was saved by ben laden

As I understand it was not Osama Bin Laden who saved the company, but rather his father. One's whole family shouldn't be branded criminals for the acts of one. Although I have to admit that it does sound rather fishy.

Kinu makes mention that we are all sheep eating up whatever news our free and independent press gives us, then in the next line he brings up a story that has been run all over Europe that is so misleading and fallacious its beyond belief. Obviously he's eaten it up like the good little ignorant sheep he is.

BTW France, Germany, and Russia all sold chemical weapons precursors to Iraq. Iraq had over 100 Mig airplanes. Pretty sure they didn't have a Made in the USA sticker on them. France in the early 80's built a nuclear reactor for Iraq that was such a threat to the Israelis they had to bomb the fucker.

The fact that your best response to me is in l33t speak I think points to your problem.

As for the Anti-american sentiment, I don't take it personally. I live where I live and I enjoy my life. I know there is no real and eminent threat from anti-american sentiment or movements because if it escalates beyond debate, rhetoric and slander then it will cease to exist. We know this and the anti-americans know this as well. Very few people, cultures and organizations are suicidal to do more than complain loudly.

Everyone has a "should be" and "ought to be" idea that differs from everyone elses. How about dealing with the reality that you live in. Get your noses back into your own neighborhoods, take care of yourself and your own and all will be well.

Some one rant anti-american at me? I shrug and keep on going about my business. I know I would do this because as I was walking down the streets of Panama (the country) and was harassed by local college kids shouting anti-american things I just kept on walking with my shipmates heading on to the night clubs. Why bother arguing with them, I didn't really care what they believed. I just cared about that fatty steak dinner and dancing I was going to enjoy after 5 weeks at sea.

Laters

One's whole family shouldn't be branded criminals for the acts of one.

You Bombed a fucking country for the acts of 1...

You arrest people who associate with terrorists yet you accept the money of ones father. You are being on your war against terror shooting and killing and the result untill today is 2 countries left with nothing, 2 countries totally in chaos and you are even not allowing 1 country to do what they democratically want ... 76% of th epopulation is not allowed to create a state that follows their religion ..

Yeag I am probably reading the wrong news like the NY Times or somthing who is always telling the truth but as far as my newsfeed goes your latest 2 victories we're not that much of a victory and the result was a lot of nothing for the "people" you saved.

Oh no, your current president was only responsible for jumpstarting their nuclear program. Give me a break, do I fuckin have to give you the count of all the shit your country gave them, to compare to the 20 early 1950s tanks they got from the US..you know, again ?

Intersting stuff you say here, espacialy the first part. Just to complete this statement ....

France gave the Iraqi nuclear program a start - yes.
France delivered the plans/knowledge how to build reactors which are used for scientific programs and tests. It was, globaly, known that you can manufactur from these scientific reactors, military usuable plutonium. All these deals, contratcts and alike were public - aka - known to everyone who cared to read a newspaper. There even exist newsflashs about this. Those deals were encouraged by USA, the NATO and basicly everyone else. Sadam, was at this time, the one and only person who could guarantee stability in this region - or at least all the major goverments, all over the world, thought so.

Only Israel was against these nuclear deals, for obvious reasons. I mean, would you like to have a country within missile range which hates you and your people equipped with nuclear powers? Thought so.

After the deals were done and the reactor build, one of the most successfull secret service missions, started and executed by the israelian Mossad, took place. Basicly the Mossad infiltrated the scientific staff working in this reactor and the whole story ended in the destruction of said reactor. Two israelian fighters just shot the thing at it's weakest spot rendering unable to be repaired and unfunctional.

There, maybe you should post everything and not only parts which attract the masses.

'Yourself for example. You can't get your own pussy to stop hurting over the people on the island next to you. How about your Irish freedom fighter buddies Halo? '

- I dunno mate. American is fucking FUNDING THE IRA.
Big..foot..small..mouth..stuck..argh.

England is in bed with osama bin laden and is offering safe haven to Sadam's sons!

Statements with no proof own me.

'Statements with no proof own me. '

- Yeah, that and half the Aro community.

Oh, so it's different when you think the terrorists are threatening yourself, however when someone else does it it's time to bunch those panties?

America funding it? In fact we told your government we were at their disposal so they could go after any IRA guys they thought were here.

I think you're a little off as usual Halo, 3/4 of the Aro community owns you on a regular basis, while 1/4 of it *thinks* it owns those bastard Americans and their friends. You know, till proven wrong, at which point they hitch up their skirts and run from the posts screaming like schoolgirls.

Shosa, your post does nothing to dispute the fact that Chirac was the engineer behind the starting of Iraq's nuclear program. Nor does it go into how Iraq kept asking the French for facilities to process weapons grade nuclear material.

Well, our skirts are not completely clean regarding the arming of Iraq either I have to admit. You won't see made in the US labels on the tanks, APCs or other ground equipment but a lot of it was provided to them from Egypt after we upgraded Egypt's army with US weapons. Part of the deal was they would hand down their crappy Soviet stuff to Iraq who was busy with Iran at the time. So we armed them in a roundabout way.

Still, their entire air force was of Russian and French manufacture, their air defense system is Russian/Chinese, and their general firearms supplied by a dozen countries pumping out AK clones and RPGs. Any countries pointing their fingers and shouting "you armed Iraq" had better look at their own record first. If your country has any defense industry at all, it has probably sold to the Iraqi military in the last twenty years.

i admit , that guardian article was indeed a misinterpret.

anyways , i admit there is no bigger terrorist threat coming from outside Usa , than 10 or 20 years before.
the only thing that changed was, that Us-americans may be conscious now that they not invulnerable after 9-11, even if the geography of their homeland seemed to safe them from enemies for many years.

utilizing that fear combined with massive TV/radio/media coverage cause the current paranoia of usamericans of the invisble terrorist enemy ;) .
FEAR is a mighty tool to control people. the enemy is invisble , he use dirty bombs (which ones are clean rofl ? ) , he spread diseases, he cause fear and destruction , terrorists worse than the devil himself it seem. terrorist are the ulitmae threat to the casual boring live of jon smith.

well , allow me to write, its all about imagination and selective information awarness ;)
there are more people dying year by year from carcrashes and housework than from dying by a terrorist attack.

turn of the tv and travel around in the world , its soo much different if you get an outside view on your beloved country , i promise.

I've got to ask you yet again Hartmut.

How much time have you spent in the USA?

Ever....

Ever???

I've lived in Europe, have you lived here? How do you dare to judge what you know not. From where I'm standing yer "sources" are just as circumspect as any we've posted. Your Euro sources are not "pure" nor is ours.

That's what pisses me off about you. While I'm sure yer not as fucking stupid or gulible as you portray, you automatically assume because you read in in yer hemisphere it's cleaner than what we have...

Hence yer AntiAmerican Bias is revealed and dispised by those of us who have actually lived in the larger world you claim to know so much about.

Get the hell out of yer Parents basement and travel abroad, by abroad I mean outside Europe, before you play Savant would you?

You, sir are the one that has been effectively brainwashed by your peers and reading/viewing materials.

pot/kettle/black

Fandros

Hartmut you make the world a dumber place.

I've lived in Europe, have you lived here? How do you dare to judge what you know not

Any more stupid comments?

I live in Europe and I know shit about my fellow Europeans .. why? Because they have a completely different culture, live in a completely different country are a completely different race with a completely different religion.

You lived in Europe? So what! That means you know about shit about all those cultures and countries we have in europe.
You know what countries makes Euorpe? How many different races, religions, languages etc?

What do you knwo about my country? About Hartnuts country? about Taino's country?
What country has a monarchy, what is a republic? what country allows drugs and in what terms? What country supported the US and what didn't?

Europe is not 1 country and so living in Europe gives you knowledge about what?

Nothng ...

It gives him knowledge about a country dramatically different than his own, something you lack. The big difference you are touting is not much more than the difference between our states.

Here's the kicker, despite having the same or less knowledge about life in the US than he does about life in Europe, you tell him he has no right to talk about Europe - while you spout off about America a dozen times a day.

Hehe why is no one saying anything about treistaania post. Its huge its correct but somehow all the americans are skipping it.

Because it's the same old editorial (i.e. not based on facts) crap America-haters have posted 7,312 times.

Not to mention it is factually incorrect. The numbers quoted are wrong (for example, the US did not send 1 million Americans to fight in the Gulf War). The US has never denied or tried to hide the use of depleted uranium munitions. The US applied pressure to Indonesia and provided diplomatic cover for the Australians to clean up the mess in East Timor. We did NOT ignore it. The US was not the prime arms supplier to Saddam, contrary to the beliefs of some. Absolutely no mention was made of US contribution to end the killing in the Balkans, an area devoid of oil interests. I could go on and on.

I did not directly address Treistaana's post before because I found it unlikely anyone could take it seriously. Guess I was wrong about that.

What really kills me, is that so many people truly believe that Iraq was a better place under Saddam Hussein.

Even if the WOMD "reason" for going to war was a complete LIE: the torture, execution, rape, murder, and use of oil money to build palaces and pay for whores while people starved is so well documented that NOBODY can say those things aren't true. EDIT: Isn't that reason enough to try to help the Iraqi's?

So I don't get it. Criticize the US Policy about the WOMD if you feel so inclined, but how can you say that the US ruined the quality of life for Iraqi people? Is a lack of sewer service for a few months so much worse than daily executions and rapes?

Must feel nice you only need to kill a few people to get cheap gasoline ....

Yeah...Look out Mexico...We're invading you next!! Cheaper donkey shows and Tequilla!

'I've lived in Europe, have you lived here? How do you dare to judge what you know not'

- uhh.. is Europe a country? No.
Why do people think everything's the same? Britain and France have more differences than America and Iraq.
Trust me.
Wise up peeps.

Since this comes up a bit, here (http://projects.sipri.se/armstrade/IRQ_IMPRTS_73-02.pdf) is a breakdown of who gave major weapon systems to Iraq.

Why do people think everything's the same?

Your a git.. Tainos a Git... Hartmut is a git... Ytrok is a git.
All from Yerope.. coinqidink? I tink not..

We just figured it was something in the water.. like battery acid or something

Interesting. There's like 10 pages of what France and Russia supplied them with and 4 lines of what the US sold them. We even let the Swiss outsupply us.

Ytrok now you can no longer refer to "Americans" you have to refer to each State individually. If you knew anything you'd know that regional differences in the US are as wide as regional differences in "Europe." Well maybe close. :p

Everybody's hands are dirty. Some obviously more than others. It's naive to think that oil played no role in the war, but its stupid to claim it was the only or even the biggest factor.

I'd like to see any information you can find that the US supported France's program to build nuclear facilities for Iraq. It's clearly against our interests to allow an enemy of Israel to gain access to nuclear material. I have read that we did support the building of the light water reactors in North Korea, but that's another story. By the way, the North Korean situation IS in the news a lot over here, whatever you think. Also, the US is very active in dealing witht the situation, but our policy has been to try and get their neighbors involved in finding a peaceful solution. I would think you all would support this.

Ytrok now you can no longer refer to "Americans" you have to refer to each State individually.

America (or better said the USA) is a country/nation at least it is ruled by 1 main government. And it's that government we are adressing, not people in a state. When you adress Europe you forget that Europe is not a country and not ruled by 1 government as it is in the United states (althou this is starting to change).

When I adress Americans I speak of the Government of the USA.
I will not use Americans because Brazillians are also Americans, and so are people from Cuba ...

I'm ruled by 3 different governments Ytrok. So if you want to mock me, you have to refer to me as a Manitowocian Wisconsinite American. 8(

- I dunno mate. American is fucking FUNDING THE IRA.


then again.. this aint a bad thing seeing that IRA is fighting the brittish state very similar to palestinians fighting the israeli.

The Struggle Continues.

'this aint a bad thing seeing that IRA is fighting the brittish state '

- I'm sorry, terrorist action is a good thing?
The fighting between Palestine and Israel is NOT a good thing. The fighting between Britain and the IRA is NOT a good thing.
To say 'it aint a bad thing' is, uh, Hi, sick.

/applause...

Wanna thank those of you who took the bait.

Yes, living in Europe doesn't give me insight into each countries culture. Tho I've lived in errr 4 of them it gives me no more insight into the shinanigans that go on over there any more than it gives ya'll ANY FUCKING RIGHT OR INSIGHT to USA. Ytrok, does this now mean you'll shut the fuck up since you've not a clue? DIdn't think so, because as always you spout but dare not allow others for fear yer narrow lil world will be shattered.

Oh, and an above poster is right. Our individual states may not speak different languages ( tho at times you'd be hardpressed to prove that to me) but with State, county and city governments providing their own twist on the Federal laws you'd be suprised just how different it is to live in one state compared to another...

I will tell you this, alot of the countries in Europe have more in common culturally than some of the states over here. Louisana backwoods anyone??? ;P

Thank you, drive you and thanks for all the fish....

Fandros

Thank you, drive you and thanks for all the fish....


That explains ur smell ..

Anyway ... Bush is your president right? And Bush is the agressor in Iraq right ? So when I speak of the US Actions in Iraq or in Afghanistan I talk about the Bush administration right?

You can't understand that I know .. it's like a lack of braincells that connect the dots to when people outside of the USA speak of the actions of the USA we do not speak of a state a city a county etc etc .. we speak of the whole as in 1 big country becuae in the end the USA is one big country compared to Europe where in the End it is NOT 1 big country .. get it yet?

Fandros .. ur a bit of an idiot and it's ok .. can't all be smart and such ..

I came into this one kinda late but after reading all the posts one thing stuck with me.
Oh and for the record, nice titties Ytrok
That was freakin funny shit.

But, we were speaking of perceptions and what it's based on Ytrok.

Think and speak slowly you DNA miscreant.

You have no clue, not nary a one how we think over here.

Yer press misleads you just as much as ours reportedly misleads us.

Fandros

Yeah...Look out Mexico...We're invading you next!! Cheaper donkey shows and Tequilla!


hahahaha

Next time you pussies get wiped out I'm going to be leading the charge not to give your countries back to you when the war is over.

I ll cry on your grave then I promise :)

"There is something to be learned from a rainstorm. When meeting with a sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run quickly along the road. By doing such things as passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet. When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed though you will still get the same soaking. This understanding extends to all things."

Crist, I did not try to dispute the fact what Chirac did. Unlike others I, at least try, to stick to facts. And fact is that Chirac did what you wrote, in which I agreed. I only pointed out that Iraq wanted this knowledge and material, officaly, for scientific reasons.

I, personaly, have a very low oppinion about Chiraq - he falls in the same category as Bush when it comes to foreign affairs, but that's another topic.

Point is Crist, that in every country people do exist which want to better themsleves with illegal actions. Take Austria for example - we delivered artillery guns to Iraq. Our export ministry was fooled to believe those guns are going to Jordania. The company which produced the guns knew at every point of the deal that the true destination was Iraq.

After this deal and all details were discovered, by some reporters, if I may add, the whole export ministry was restructured to avoid such things in the future. The company was shutdown and does not exist anymore.

The same people who did this stunt in my country do exist in every other country also. So, I wouldn't blame the goverments in said countries, but merely the control mechanisms to avoid such things - and America has one of the more strict controlls when it comes to exports. Tho I never heard of such drastic actions taken against illegal exports as we did it in Austrias case. But this doesn't mean they were not taken - who wants to brag about errors which were made?

Fandros, for someone who lived in that many different countries all over europe, I would expect a bit more willingness to see the concerns of europe. As someone wrote that in America the states are you giving the feeling to be in a different country - the same I expirienced in Switzerland. Those Kantons are easily comparable to the states in America.

Anyhow, as long people are not willing at least to try to even think about the other sides point and respect, not talking about accepting, a very different oppinion - things wont change a bit.

This counts for both sides, America & Europe, in our case.

'Next time you pussies get wiped out I'm going to be leading the charge not to give your countries back to you when the war is over. '

- Ah, you crazy Yanks.

Shosa, try using the live chat feature or IRC as a medium for discussion if you want any extent of mutual respect or an intelligent discussion.

Well, y'know...stuck a feather in his cap and called it macaroni.

fandros not a redneck ?

i m disappointed

Its funny Shosa that its common knowledge that Iraq was actively seeking to develop nuclear arms, but France builds them a nuclear "reasearch" facility. What percent of the vote did Le Pen win in the last election anyway? 20 percent? What's his claim to fame? Radical antisemitism?

I think Le Pen was more pro-national / generalist racist than an anti-semitist per definition.

As I recall he never did target the jews in particular (though feel free to correct me) but he did target immigrants in general.

//Kiv

www.adl.org/international/le-pen_new.asp (http://www.adl.org/international/le-pen_new.asp)

"A sharply divided nation where wealth disparities are among the most marked in Western Europe, where high unemployment has persisted for a decade and a half, where crime rose by 8 per cent last year. A country where racial tension simmers on rundown housing estates, where synagogues have been burned and Jewish cemeteries desecrated, where the inhabitants of those picturesque rural regions complain of living in a green desert, where hypochondria is a way of life - and where an aged, rancorous, far- right-wing bully edged out the socialist Prime Minister in the first round of the presidential election last Sunday."
www.observer.co.uk/europe...19,00.html (http://www.observer.co.uk/europe/story/0,11363,706519,00.html)

What the hell??

I'm not a redneck?? LoL

Guess it depends on yer definition of redneck. ;)

Fandros

Your quote is badass winter especially coming from an american hahah. The disparities in wealth don't even come CLOSE to the ones in USA, the unemployement rate is higher than in the US mainly because well we don't have the gov covering quite a lot of people with all the army stuff. Also there are a shitload of people in the US that aren't even on any list(read people living in the street or in the ghettos).

You guys have god know how many trillions of deficit and we won't even talk about one person dying from violent death every 30min in the USA, thanks to all the guns around.

Chirac is a lamer that i won't disagree with you but seriously I think you will be able to criticize france when you guys fix your own problems which imo are much much worse than ours :)

PS: I love the patriot act, I read about it and all the abuse that came with it. Ah fear is a mighty tool to control ignorants people. I read your whole article, there is a lot of stuff that is exagerated , full quotes that are completly incorrects etc. As far as politician cheating lol sorry but thats totally irrevelant. Every single country's politician cheat. I don't have the time to quote every single wrong thing because the article is way too long but seriously this is just pure french bashing massively exagerated, I can find the same thing about the USA within 10min prolly. Learn to make difference between bashing with only a few real facts and real analysis of countries.

to answer your questions straight forward fandros , i stayed 1 month in the us, mainly in the middle west (kansas city area, topeka etc) visiting friends of my family which worked for the geologal institute of the univerisity of kansas. they did oil exploration research etc ...

i stayed 4 month in various places in africa (kenya, tansania,south africa) , almost 3 month in turkey, 2 month in greece and 2 month in thailand/laos , 3 or 4 weeks in russia and baltic republics, yes i been to great britan too, traveled many times to netherlands aswell list goes on containing most countries in europe ....

and btw right now sitting a friend from new york next to me who works for ibm , and he cant hold back his laughing about all this bullshit posting hehe #

Its funny Shosa that its common knowledge that Iraq was actively seeking to develop nuclear arms, but France builds them a nuclear "reasearch" facility.

Reply:

Its funny Winter that its common knowledge that Iraq was actively seeking to develop WoMD's to kill Iranians, but the USA gave them all the resources to produce it.

SO DID EVERY OTHER FUCKING COUNTRY ON THE SECURITY COUNCIL. Its a fact Ytrok deal with it.

Kinu, pull your head out of the sand. It's common knowledge what Le Pen stands for. The homeless rate is as high in France as it is in the US, I've posted proof on this board before but I'm not going to bother to catch you up.

Hartmut you told my grandmother's home health care worker (paid for by the government) who is from Germany about some of this bullshit as well. As I said before, she claims that Germany has turned into a horrible place and she could never go back there.

SO DID EVERY OTHER FUCKING COUNTRY ON THE SECURITY COUNCIL. Its a fact Ytrok deal with it.

So it's also a fact that the French helped building a nuclear plant .. does that change anything or did you just with your statement blow away your own previous post?

Thread Summary, reread every time these topics come up to save us all time:

German_01: Dumb Americans! You are all sheep! My tabloids tell me so! There was no threat to anyone from Saddam!

American_02: How do you figure Saddam wasn't a threat? He gassed his own people, his neighbors, invaded other countries, and violated the ceasefire agreement time and time again.

IgnorantBrit_01: I'm a fucking retard! see!?

Frenchy_01: Why aren't you responding to crock_of_shit_00? Sure, everything in it is a blatant lie with nothing at all to back it up but why aren't you responding?

American_02: Well Frenchy_01, it's a load of crap that includes trying to place the blame for arming Saddam on the US, when we've shown countless times the US had very little to do with that especially in comparison to say..your country..

Frenchy_01: We gave him 2 helicopters, a goat, and a few bottles of wine with explosive corks! Nothing else! Definately not any chemical weapons or the like!

American_03: We've proven time and time again how you gave him more than anyone but the Soviets..do we have to repeat the facts and their sources every thread? It's also worth noting(again)that your country jumpstarted Saddam's nuclear programs single handedly in addition to contributing to his chemical abilities....

Dutchie_01: You attacked Iraq to go after 1 man! You destroyed the entire Middle East and probably the rest of Asia as well you damned American Pig-Dogs!

[more hate crap from IgnorantBrit_01]

German_01: Ok, I admit my article was crap..but only this one article, and only on technicalities!

Dutchie_01: PIG-DOGS! PIG-DOGS! I am going to continue to yell PIG-DOGS! in your general direction to criticize your country despite having no real knowledge about it!

American_01: But I'm not allowed to say anything about Europe, despite having the experience advantage over you in that I've actually lived in the area I am talking about?

Dutchie_01: You can't understand the genius and omniescense of ME! I know what it is these things that I am speaking of!

Frenchy_01: I'm back to say that you shouldn't talk about Europe until you fix your own countries problems, problems that occur much more often and in higher numbers than over here(although I won't mention that the per capitas are the same or even worse over here!).

Dutchie_01: The PIG-DOGS built the Iraqi chemical program!

American_04: Every country on the security council gave stuff to Iraq at that time, as we've said over and over.

Dutchie_01: HAHA! I HAVE YOU NOW PIG-DOG! I have shocking breaking news that the French started the Iraqi nuclear program! What does that do to your statement that everyone on the security council gave Iraq things that could be used in bio/chemical warfare 15 years later? HUH? HUH? ZING!

Maybe your history and knowledge of funding dictators and terrorists would have given you a little bit of knowledge of what happens when you fund these "kind" of people.

Guess it didn't ...

Anyway Cristo nice play you wrote their thou like how the Americans are all right and the rest of the world is ignorant and blind.

Kinda like putting 30 deaf people in with 1 that can hear screaming their all blind I guess (if you don't get this one then please request an explanation)

Stop posting/linking Made up stuff and maybe you will not come across as idiot eurotrash.

So far its established that France and Russia were BY FAR the major arms suppliers to Iraq. France, Russia and Germany were the countries making the most money off the oil for food program. Every country on the security council, including France, Russia, and Germany supplied the Iraqis with chemical weapons precursors. France build a nuclear facility for Iraq who was well known to be pursuing nuclear armament. Switzerland, Germany, and Belgium supplied them with the parts to build their "supergun" to be able to shell Israel. And yet every time the topic comes up all the euros whine about America arming Iraq, America selling chemical weapons to Iraq. Your governments are doing a nice propaganda job on you all.

And yet every time the topic comes up all the euros whine about America arming Iraq, America selling chemical weapons to Iraq.

Since the reason the "Alliance" went to war was Chemical weapons aka WomD's then it is pretty valid that I find this more important then giving them a few tanks.

But we all have to admit .. thanks to the US Iraq and Afghanistan are now a better place and there is a lot less risk of terrorist actions out there ... ehm wait a minute!

lol cristo
:rollin :eek :p :lol :D

Ytrok there may or may not be less risk of terrorist attacks out there. I believe that there IS less risk, but it's just an opinion. One thing for sure is that any country that knowingly supports a terrorist action against the US or our allies knows there will be consequences.

Winterworg, do you think that 20 or even 500 knowingly supporting top level goverment people equal 2 million not even remote knowing inhabitants of a country? Just curious where you would draw the line to justify those consequences.

I'm pretty sure I understand what your question is Shosa, but The way it's worded leaves a little interpretation. Could you ask again spelling it out a little further for me? I don't want to answer in the wrong way. I think you're asking that if some high level members of a government sponsor a terrorist attack, do I think its appropriate to go to war even though most of the population of the country was not involved.

One thing for sure is that any country that knowingly supports a terrorist action against the US or our allies knows there will be consequences.

Like Saudi Arabia you mean?

Yes, like Saudi Arabia. With increased US influence in the region since Afghanistan and Iraq, we no longer have to rely on the Saudi's as much as before. The Saudi people may be happy we're closing our bases there, but the Royal Family definitely isn't. I'm actually kinda worried about that. I wouldn't take any bets as to the future of their current government.

Yes Winterworg, you interpreted my question right.

I thought I might try to address Shosa's question as I understand it.

Let me ask another question. At what point do you refuse to act against a nation because only some are in control of it and the rest will suffer if you do? What if by ignoring the country, even more innocents are killed, maimed or whatever when the country in question decides to forcibly annex a neighbor?

Many of the very same Iraqis who suffered in this latest war were themselves killing and robbing Iranians and Kuwaitis a decade before under the orders of Saddam. They did so because to refuse was to be hauled off somewhere and shot. The fact that they would not normally do those things does not alter the fact that they did do those things because of the leadership.

If the root problem is an entrenched and ruthless dictatorship, it needs to be contained or removed. Containment (sanctions) arguably kills more innocent people than outright war. How many Iraqis starved under sanctions? Yet to drop sanctions is to let the dictator go about his business and kill more of his neighbors with impunity. Either way people die because the dictator is still in charge.

The only way to end the killing is to get rid of the leadership that is driving the violence and make sure a more peaceful regime takes its place. Since dictators don't resign or reform willingly in most cases, it takes a war or a revolution to get rid of them. A war means people die, no way around it. The question is do fewer people die in a war to remove the dictator than die under sanctions, under the day to day rule of the dictator and in the dictator's wars of expansion. With the proliferation of WMD, the potential killing an unopposed Saddam could (and likely would) have done staggers the imagination. The killing he had already done far outstrips Iraqi losses in both gulf wars put together. Saddam and his Baathist party needed to go, not just for our safety but for the future lives of the Iraqi people.

the unemployement rate is higher than in the US mainly because well we don't have the gov covering quite a lot of people with all the army stuff.

How large exactly do you think the US military is?

Taking data from the 2000 Census and population estimates found here (http://eire.census.gov/popest/data/national/tables/NA-EST2002-06.php) it can be determined that active duty military make up less than .5% of the total US population*. Broadening the definition of "army stuff" to include civilian employees in government agencies (ie: Department of Defense) that number grows to roughly 1.4% of all Americans.

1.4% is insignificant compared to the number of Americans in government jobs that are unrelated to military activity. Roughly 18 - 23 % of all Americans work in state or federal agencies (gov't jobs) with no connection to the military whatsoever. America also has fewer people per capita working in government jobs than many European nations. I didn't feel like crunching all the numbers for you but the information is out there to look at if you ever get motivated to check the facts yourself.

Our nation's unemployment rate is the highest its been in 9 years and its still lower than your's. So now that we know the government isn't providing all these jobs, why again is the unemployment rate higher in your country?

*I used the April 2000 population estimates numbers to determine the percentage of active military compared to total population

Since the reason the "Alliance" went to war was Chemical weapons aka WomD's then it is pretty valid that I find this more important then giving them a few tanks.

Should we check Snopes to verify this?

Shosa I just don't think that sentiment translates in the real world. The only retaliation other than war is 1) economic sanction which hurts the population while sparing the elite, 2) inaction which puts us in further danger, 3) covert action and assassination which has proven to be ineffective, 3) diplomacy which amounts to the same as inaction.

Americans aren't proud of the Iraqi soldiers who were killed nor of the Afghani soldiers killed. It gave us all great grief to know that some civilians were killed and continue to be killed in these actions. The most important thing we can do though in my opinion is prove that we won't be cowed by terrorism and we won't shirk to do whatever we need to in order to achieve our ends.

Gulor & Winterworg ... please, step back from the 'all is about Iraq' thingie - I didn't mean Iraq, there were too many other factors to be taken into account which may justify a war in someones eyes.

My question was - how big must the support for terror be to justify a war, for example, in Saudi Arabia or Egypt. Both countries a pools for terror organisations when it comes to recruting and alike. In both countries the acceptance for terror is rather high - Egypt is a democratic country and Saudi Arabia a monarchy (kinda dictaroship, if you want).

And I am also not interested in what offical sources say - they act sometimes quite contrary to what they say - I am interested what it takes for you personaly to justify actions against a terror supporting country.

Hope that clears it up a bit.

Shosa, Saudi Arabia and Egypt are sort of the reverse image of Saddam's Iraq.

In Saudi Arabia and Egypt it is not the upper leadership espousing terrorist ideals, it is the common man on the street. The leaders of Saudi Arabia were looking the other way to avoid being overthrown but they are not the ones organizing and instigating the problems. Now after the recent terrorist bombings they are beginning to change their level of tolerance for these groups. This is a case where diplomacy and police assistance actually have a chance to work. Why would anyone want to resort to war when this is the case?

You need to realize the portrayal of Americans as bloodthirsty warmongers who jump at any chance to kill and maim in order to intimidate the rest of the world just isn't valid. If a non violent means is a workable option, it is the preferred option in America as much as anywhere.

In Egypt, Mubarrak has never condoned or supported terrorism, it is done by outlawed groups like the Muslim Brotherhood. There is a difference when the rulers of a state are trying to keep the lid on terrorism and when they are trying to use terrorism as a tool of the state. To declare a war on Egypt would be to destroy the only functioning restraint on the militants.

I believe that you and others have pointed out the best way to combat islamic terrorism is to resolve the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I agree. I think that is the biggest excuse used by the religious zealots to stir up the violence. That being said, how one accomplishes that task is the tricky question. There are factions within Israel that want to expand their country at the expense of the surrounding arab people. There are factions amongst the arabs that want to kill and/or enslave every last Israeli and wipe them from the earth. How do you get them to deal with each other? No one yet has figured out how.

I was just using the feelings about Iraq and Afghanistan as an example Shosa. Each country is a separate and different situation. I've heard experts say that no matter what you can't make war on Saudi Arabia because it would lead to a larger regional conflict because of special sentiment Arabs have toward Saudi Arabia. Whether this is true or not I have no idea.

I thought I answered your question before but I'll try it more directly. I think most wars between countries are wars against the power structure, and that most of the population are innocents. I believe the Israeli citizens are innocents, yet the terrorist bombs target them. I believe the Palestinian people are innocents, yet they are often killed in Israeli military action. Does action against the US by those in power in another country justify war? Yes if they kill, attempt to kill, or aid in the killing of Americans. I know, eye for an eye and soon the whole world is blind. However if you get poked in the eye you'd better go take their stick away or they'll poke out your other one. We knew where Bin Laden was hiding and who was directly supporting him and we went into Afghanistan to take them down. History will decide whether it was right or wrong over time. I'm not sure the same situation exists in other countries where the government so directly supports a terrorist organization targetting the US.

This thread...

At least set to cool music

www.albinoblacksheep.com/video/redux.php (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/video/redux.php)

<Bump!>

Muahaha....

--Cen

Rofl, git :P

By the way, one thing has been bothering me for a while.

If the war on Iraq was about oil and the US doesn't care about anything but the oil and also if the CIA is the right hand of the devil (yes two assumtions)....

....then why didn't the CIA plant a fake WoMD research facility in the middle of a desert in Iraq with a good load of nuclear material and a half finished atomic bomb and let the US troops find it? I mean it should have been rather easy to arrange that no? A solid evidence, something to show up as justification to the media.

Well I figured since NAG has their own serious-yet-retarded thread (ah well, the arguments all eventually devolve anyway) we may as well have one of our own... :P

--Cen