http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article2461421.ece

Israelis ‘blew apart Syrian nuclear cache’ Pretty interesting if it did happen.

Hasn't made more headlines because no one is really sure what happened, and they don't necessarily trust the Times' story. Both Israel and Syria are keeping quiet about the incident. Yesterday, the NYT wrote (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/18/world/asia/18korea.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin) on it, stating that the raid was against "what Israeli intelligence believes was a nuclear-related facility that North Korea was helping to equip, according to current and former American and Israeli officials." The article doesn't add much, but does mention that China postponed planned talks in order to prevent confrontation between NK and the US at a sensitive time.

Syria seems to lack the infrastructure to develop a nuclear program, and NK has been dealing positively with theirs. Why would NK do something like this now? (Other than Kim Jong'il being crazy-buggers, anyway). The whole matter is suspicious and needs to be uncovered.

I heard some news guys talking about this, but I cannot recall what channel or program I had happened upon. They were making a point that Israel had reminded the region that they had the superior air force and would not hesitate to use it to protect themselves from potential aggression. I did not get a lot of info from the brief bit I saw, but I also was curious that if Israel had attacked Syria, and Syria had been pursuing a nuclear program, why was this not front page news.

I heard about this on WTOP on my way home. There are unconfirmed stories on the websites of the Washington Post, CNN, and the New York Times - but they just can't confirm if it happened or not and why. I'd expect it to trickle out some over the next day or so as more information becomes available.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1189411428847&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Is this related, and if so this is of serious concern imho

The Nelson Report is a subscription only foreign policy insider publication that's pretty well regarded for finding out and tracking "what is going on" in the world. From the report on 9/19:In fact, as our headline, above, notes, we have absolutely solid information that the Israeli bombing raid on Syria was aimed at…and took out…missiles and/or weapons parts. Period.All the stories being floated about Israeli intelligence sources hinting that it was a North Korean/Syrian nuclear weapons project, or site, are BS, albeit of varying motivation.


What remains under some debate is whether the missiles/parts can be 100% ascribed to N. Korea. Most unclassified evidence … points at Pyongyang. From 9/20: So for what its worth, our best sources continue to maintain the intel, such as it is, confirms “missiles and/or weapons parts”, most likely from N. Korea, and possibly including a Russian radar installation (which might have been helping guard the site).
It's illegal under UNSC Resolution 1718 (http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N06/572/07/PDF/N0657207.pdf?OpenElement) for UN member states to accept weapons from DPRK.

So, from this it sounds like North Korea exported some scuds to Syria, Israel didn't like it, and the scuds suffered a case of bomber poisoning. It makes far more sense than NK participating in a nuclear development program of some sort with Syria.

Don't you think that the UN should have imposed a series of sanctions as opposed to Israel acting unilaterally?
I mean, that's been so successful in the past.....
:rolleyes:

Apparently now there is news that the U.S. provided intel and support for Israel's bombing, therefore technically America has taken part in operations against Syria...

Go read your comment about the guy from Iran found in Iraq. Now read your comment here Jedd... Hypocrite much?

Go read your comment about the guy from Iran found in Iraq. Now read your comment here Jedd... Hypocrite much?

Uh? 1 person in a country < Full intel support from another

How you could even compare the two and call me a hypocrite i dont understand.

Uh? 1 person in a country < Full intel support from another

How you could even compare the two and call me a hypocrite i dont understand.

You said, "Apparently now there is news that the U.S. provided intel and support..."

You are taking a media report as gospel, but knocking a media report in another thread.

You'll accept a media report that makes the US look badly, but not one that makes Iran look badly.

You said, "Apparently now there is news that the U.S. provided intel and support..."

You are taking a media report as gospel, but knocking a media report in another thread.

You'll accept a media report that makes the US look badly, but not one that makes Iran look badly.

Well, lets take a step back and explain to you how things work in America...

The media is owned and operated by Corporations.
Corporations have their own agendas.
Most Corporations want to stay on the GOOD side of the government.
Most news is heard the way the government wants it to be heard, and sometimes some is leaked that they dont want to be.
KFI radio which is a conservative radio station and owned by Clear Channel, which you all know is behind the government 100% reported this story as a developing story in the news today.

If you cant grasp why i would believe this story, and be skeptical about the other, then you just dont understand how us realists see the Media.

The world isnt always Black and White, as my post about the Iranian proves... Sometimes it is Gray!

And if it's anti-us, pro-iran it's black to you because you have your blinders on.

I've never been a defender of our current policy, or our current leadership. I don't think they've been completely forthcoming with us. At the same time I don't think a "Liberal media" outlet like MSNBC is catering their news cast about Iran to bolster Bush's stance on them. If it was Fox, I might be slightly more willing to somewhat agree with you.

Just like it would take a person with blinders on to follow everything our current leadership says/does, it would equally take someone having blinders on to think that Iran isn't meddling in Iraq.

The media is owned and operated by Corporations.
Corporations have their own agendas.
Most Corporations want to stay on the GOOD side of the government.
Most news is heard the way the government wants it to be heard, and sometimes some is leaked that they dont want to be.
KFI radio which is a conservative radio station and owned by Clear Channel, which you all know is behind the government 100% reported this story as a developing story in the news today.

Thats not exactly how things work in the real world though. A friend of mine writes for the Politico, which is a political newspaper pretty popular on capitol hill. Its owned by Allbritton which owns and operates CBS, Fox, and ABC affiliates. He's *extremely* republican. He finds out about a story, he writes it, he sends it to his editor, and its published online in a matter of hours. There isn't any "corporation" that screens everything before it goes online, or even to print, there's just an editor. And hell, this company airs material from Fox (considered conservative) and ABC (considered liberal).

General Electric, who owns NBC / MSNBC / Universal, is a huge multi-national corporation. They're far too big to really worry about if "the government" (mind you there are probably a million people each who think on their own outside of dictation who work for the government, it isn't just one person) is gonna dislike an article or a story.

I know Republicans that work for MSNBC, I know Democrats that work for Fox. They show up, they write their scripts or their reports, and they go home. Never does big brother tap them on the shoulder and tell them how to write their story.

Fox has a conservative slant because thats what their audience wants to hear, not because thats what almighty government and corporations tell them to broadcast. No need for conspiracy theories here.

Kelraz, I was just gonna sell him a tin-foil hat.
Now you went and ruined my fun...
:(

Fox has a conservative slant because thats what their audience wants to hear, not because thats what almighty government and corporations tell them to broadcast.I think it a safe bet that Fox's conservative slant is due to Murdoch's own conservative slant. Positive feedback from the current government has surely enhanced it, but the slant was already there.

And hey, don't forget Tucker and Scarborough over on MSNBC. You can get a quite varied array of analysis from host to host. I know Republicans that work for MSNBC, I know Democrats that work for Fox. They show up, they write their scripts or their reports, and they go home. Never does big brother tap them on the shoulder and tell them how to write their story. It's more a product of the editing room. What reports get published? What makes front page and what gets B10? How does the lede look? What title does the editor give the article? Is a reporter encouraged or discouraged to follow a particular line of inquiry.

Also, is there actual examination of a given issue, or does the reporter simply record "how it plays" (this 'theater critic' route being irritatingly typical of current beltway political reporting).

Coming back to the topic, it's clear that the truth of the incident is still in the shadows. While I find the Nelson Report to be pretty reliable, the text I quoted only goes so far in its explanation. Did we supply intel? If so, how much? Was Cheney and his crew involved (as rumors have circled about the VPOTUS looking to use Israel to strike Iran/Syria)?

There's still a lot to be revealed about all this.

The thing is, I haven't once said that its NOT true, I have said, it is possible that it is true, but we cannot know for sure(regarding the Iranian in Iraq). I have very little faith in our Media therefore i choose to take a step back and think more about it.

Both subjects fall under the same thing. It is being reported that the U.S. was involved with Israel on this attack, and I believe it because of how the U.S. acts towards Israel. Yet I am not saying its 100%

It is quite possible that my opinion will be wrong, but i am still reacting to a news article, true a little different in each situation but thats my perogative because of my thinking coming into play. We will in time see the truth revealed about the Israel Syria thing, but we probably wont hear much more about the Iranian in Iraq incident. Though i hope we do, one way or another.

Actually the way things get the front page anymore is a product of how many unique page views the HTML versions of the story get. Most of those websites are dynamic and if you and a thousand of your friends all go click an obscure story you can get it on the front page. Also for television "top stories" they can change up to the last minute but more often than not they mimic what stories get the most airtime on the competitors networks in the prior hour. I've been sitting about to do a live shot for a "top story" only to get bumped 30 seconds before air time down to the second story just because another network that came on 30 seconds before us (less commercials or something I guess) was covering a different story.

I was referring more to the paper versions of newspapers that some folks still utilize, but the page clicking argument seems questionable on its face. Online stories are placed somewhere when first put into the system -- someone other than the writer decides whether it's a headline, whether it's on the front page (say, one of the two or three entries under Politics) or off in a corner (you have to click on Politics to find it).

Maybe a lot of clicks will get the story promoted, but people need to be aware of it in the first place, and I very rarely see B10 stories make the front page late in the day.

As for live top stories being bumped, I've seen enough "Moscow in flames, missiles headed to New York -- but first, OJ Simpson has apparently taken a crap" presentations on the news to know how true that sadly is.

Apparently now there is news that the U.S. provided intel and support for Israel's bombing, therefore technically America has taken part in operations against Syria...

Since this is a pretty vague reference, could you possibly cite the article, or link it, so that the rest of us might be able to form as informed an opinion as you have?

I have been looking for it online... I cant find it atm, But i heard it this morning on KFI 640 AM radio in Los Angeles, on the Bill Handel show.

They were discussing the days latest news.

You may take it as hearsay until more info is found if you like, But i know what i heard :)

So we gave them intel and support (probably satelite photos and info from an AWACS). Big deal, we helped a country that we have committed ourselves to help.

So we gave them intel and support (probably satelite photos and info from an AWACS). Big deal, we helped a country that we have committed ourselves to help.

We can keep on riding that commitement all the way to our graves?

Alliance with a World defying country like Israel is not good for this country which boasts about Freedom and Democracy and about how we are the ones with morals and responsibility in the world...

Then we back a country that will kill anyone and everyone for a piece of land that never even belonged to them.

Then we back a country that will kill anyone and everyone for a piece of land that never even belonged to them.

You mean never like when it was the Kingdom of Israel united under David? The whole Moses wandering the desert for 40 years after they were freed from Egypt, looking for the promised land thing ring a bell?

That IS their homeland.. there is no other place, Wailing Wall... ect. A Jewish person might actually refer to the Jews taking the land as a Reconquest from the Arabic people who took the land from them around 500 BCE.

The Jewish state has a right to exist. And we have an obligation to aid it, especially since we helped to recreate it after WWII. Israel is surrounded by nations and groups that openly work for the destruction of it and its people.

The "Palestinians", as they are, havent gotten a bad deal. Trillions of dollars in free, never have to pay it back, money to help them. Yet they squander it and funnel it away to their corrupt leaders who would rather point them in futile suicidal war than create a functioning responsible society.

And I hope we did take part in actions against Syria. Fucking Baathists for fuck sake... for all intents and purposes an offshoot of the Nazi Party. Remember Hama? Remember the Syrian Regime bulldozing an entire city along with 20,000 men, women and children into the ground?
The goal of the attack on Hama was to cease the rebellious activities of the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood. The assault began on February 2 with extensive shelling of the town of 350 000 inhabitants. Before the attack, the Syrian government called for the city's surrender and warned that anyone remaining in the city would be considered as a rebel. Robert Fisk in his book Pity the Nation described how civilians were fleeing Hama while tanks and troops were moving towards the city's outskirts to start the siege. He cites reports from fleeing civilians and soldiers of mass death and shortages of food and water.(Pity the Nation, pages 185-86)

According to Amnesty International, the Syrian military bombed the old streets of the city from the air to facilitate the introduction of military forces and tanks through the narrow streets, where homes were crushed by tanks during the first four days of fighting. They also claim that the Syrian military pumped poison gas into buildings where insurgents were said to be hiding.

The army was mobilized, and Hafez again sent Rifaat's special forces and Mukhabarat agents to the city. After encountering fierce resistance, they used artillery to blast Hama into submission. After a two-week battle, the town was securely in government hands again. Then followed several weeks of torture and mass executions of suspected rebel sympathizers, killing many thousands, known as the Hama Massacre. Journalist Robert Fisk, who was in Hama shortly after the massacre, estimated fatalities as high as 10,000 (Pity the Nation, pages 186). The New York Times estimated the death toll as up to 20,000.[1] Rifaat later boasted of killing 38,000 people. The Syrian Human Rights Committee estimates 30,000 to 40,000 were killed. Most of the old city was completely destroyed, including its palaces, mosques, ancient ruins and the famous Azzem Palace mansio

Yea.. poor fucking Syria.. I wonder why we keep supporting Israel.

I am sorry if you have a hard time grasping this Jedd, but I, and I think some others, would rather back Israel in maintaining their security, than back any of the other countries in the region, who have all contributed in some manner to the terrorist attacks on the U.S., England, Spain, Indonesia, Christian tourists, journalists, etc.

Yeah, Israel may take it on themselves to attack Syria and remove a threat to Israeli security; and, they may have imprisoned many Palestinians without what we consider due process, similar to what we have done with Guantanamo. But, I have not seen any videos released by the Jewish folks boasting of how tough they are with their faces hidden while they behead a hostage who is bound and helpless. I have not seen any actions comparable to the Syrian attack on Hama or the Iraqi attack on the Kurds or Iranians using chemical weapons, nor the attack on the American Embassy in Tehran.

Islam is the most misunderstood religion in the world, because there are so many different interpretations of the teachings by varied power hungry Imams and Ayatollahs, which is why it is also becoming the most feared of our religions. I know the Jews are not always in the right but I will side with them over the Moslem states in that region every day, while the current state of affairs exists over there.

Without comment on anything else, I did see a reference somewhere to the US providing intel support for the strikes. This doesn't make it so, but the rumor is out there.

Without comment on anything else, I did see a reference somewhere to the US providing intel support for the strikes. This doesn't make it so, but the rumor is out there.

I saw that the U.S. had provided codes for identifying American aircraft, to avoid any accidental exchanges of fire. That is a tacit acceptance of the pending strike, if not an approval.

'You mean never like when it was the Kingdom of Israel united under David? The whole Moses wandering the desert for 40 years after they were freed from Egypt, looking for the promised land thing ring a bell?'

- No, because I don't treat the bible as my encylopedia.
Some fuckin' Promised Land, anyway - 'The land of honey and milk.' As a British Soldier once said after the conquest of Palestine from the Ottomans: "There ain't no bleedin honey, and it's ten Tommies to a can of milk".

"That IS their homeland.. there is no other place, Wailing Wall... ect. A Jewish person might actually refer to the Jews taking the land as a Reconquest from the Arabic people who took the land from them around 500 BCE."

- Oh what a load of bleedin' bollocks. I mean what an utter load of crap, really. People who jusify modern nationalist borders on maps with ancient histories are usually those who don't have a leg to stand on - which I know isn't true with you L2, at least not usully.
The Moslem population of the Levant have been there just as long as any Jewish population have. 'Cause you know what? The history of Humanity is the history of movement, of migrating peoples and changing demographies. The "Sea People" where there before the Phoenician city-states, who were there before the Jews, who were there before the Romans, who were there before the Christians, who were there before the Byzantines, who were there before the Arabs, who were there before the Turks, who were there before the British and French, who were there before the modern Jewish and Moslem populations. There's four thousand years of history - who the fuck owns it?

It's like saying the Christian Reconquista was divinely right. For christ sake THEY were a mixture of celtic-iberian-Romano peasents under a Germanic-Vandal-Visigothic elite of Ayrian Christianity for barely three centuries before the Arabs conquered Spain in 700AD and stayed until 1400AD. For the retarded out there, that's twice as long as the Hispanic Christians that undertook L2's "Reconquest". So who should Spain belong to? The Moselsm, the Hispanic.... Rome? Can four million Italians migrate to Madrid, wage a terrorist campaign against the Spanish, then insist that they have a historic right to rule Spain?

Dont be retarded.
Otherwise my capital should be Cardiff, and it should be a Welsh Constitutional-Monarch, and the English should be driven in to the sea. Remember - the Welsh were Celtic, the original Britons. But oh, no, they weren't. They themselves migrated from the Continent in about 4000BC.

See my point? Don't be so fucking retarded. Contemporary politics justifies nationalist boudaries and modern borders.

Oh, and the Arabs never "took" the land from the Jews in 500AD. It was conquered from the Byzantines.

"The Jewish state has a right to exist. And we have an obligation to aid it, especially since we helped to recreate it after WWII. Israel is surrounded by nations and groups that openly work for the destruction of it and its people."

- The Jewish state does not have a right to exist. At least, it is debatable. But then so is a Palestinian's right to exist. Britain created the Israeli embryo. It's called the Balfour Declaration, not the Monroe Doctrine. We opened up our Palestine Mandate (that's right, Palestine, not Israel) to limited Jewish migration in the 20's which we failed to control owing to illegal migration during Hitler's persecutions in the Second World War. Palestine was always to be an Arab homeland with Jewish settlements, on the condition that Jewish settlement did not upset exsting Arab community.

The Balfour Declaration was partly Romantic, partly genuine. Men like Rothschild (obviously) and Balfour were sympathetic to Jewsh State, but only privately. Public policy stuck rigidly to and maintainted the idea that a Jewish "homeland" would be "in" Palestine, not instead of (Glimour's "Curzon" is a good source if you want to know more, Curzon being in charge of the Ottoman settlement after the First World War).

The failure of ensuring limited Jewish migration and the integrity of the Arab population was due in part to desperate and illegal Jewish immigration (who can blame them?) coupled with aggressive and driven Jewish terrorism (oh, yeah, Jews can be terroists too) and in part to Britain's over-stretched Imperial position after the First and Second World Wars (more responsibilties, less economic capability).

The idiotic sanctioning of a Zionist state in the middle of a bubbling and young nationalist Arab world is the fault entirely of the UN. The embryo, however, must start with Britain.

Now there's your school lesson. Learn from it. Israeli has no historic right to exist. It's formation and consequence lies in contemporary events and politics.

"The "Palestinians", as they are, havent gotten a bad deal."

- I'm not even going to answer this fucking comment. The "Jews" are the ones who got the good deal. The Palestinians, well - they just happend to be caught in the middle.

One wonders what American liberty and freedom would make of such a situation. When your overlords are finally driven out and for the first time in a millenium it looks as though you may tile the land as a free man. Then a million foreigners converge on your land, wage a terrorist campaign, turn on you, then get sanction and support to own the land. You fight back, are crushed, then subject to military rule in all your poverty and hopelessness for the next forty years. Then some fucking dipshit behind his computer says "You got a good deal - afterall you get aid you don't have to pay back."

Unbelievable.

Jedd said...

The media is owned and operated by Corporations.
Corporations have their own agendas.
Most Corporations want to stay on the GOOD side of the government.Dan Rather said (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070921/D8RPKMPO0.html)...

NEW YORK (AP) - Dan Rather said Thursday that the undue influence of the government and large corporations over newsrooms spurred his decision to file a $70 million lawsuit against CBS and its former parent company.

Coincidence? I think not.

So Jedd = Dan Rather?

I knew it!

From all I've learned in my studies, Isreal has no right to the land they now occupy save that from biblical times. Most of the world is sympathetic to the Palestinian plight, and for good reason...

We can keep on riding that commitement all the way to our graves?

This.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article2512380.ece

Israeli commandos seized nuclear material of North Korean origin during a daring raid on a secret military site in Syria before Israel bombed it this month, according to informed sources in Washington and Jerusalem. The attack was launched with American approval on September 6 after Washington was shown evidence the material was nuclear related, the well-placed sources say.

Not quick to trust Murdoch's Sunday Times. Corroboration, anyone?

This past weekend the 303rd airborne division held their final yearly gathering and memorial service for their World War 2 veterans. The big theme was that they fought what they thought was the war to end all wars. What happened to the Jewish people during WWII was awful, but much like how the treatment of the Germans after WWI led to WWII, setting up Israel really has been a catalyst for so many problems.

I can't help but wonder if we'd be in the Middle East now if we didn't set up Israel with the land so many years ago?

I've often wondered if we would have done the Israeli Jews a bigger favor by setting them up in a different location. Perhaps South America somewhere as an example.

Forcing the ME to accept them into an area with eons of conflict between the religiously inclined was very short sighted imho.

Fandros

Fanny, Britain was originally intending to set up a Zionist state in Kenya, which was part of the Empire at the time. Men like Balfour and Rothschild obviously swayed the argument to the Palestine Mandate, with their romantic vision of biblical homelands.Imagine the difference had Israel been created in Kenya?

I suspect it would be the most technologically advanced, economically wealthy, and most democractic country on the African continent.

...And everyone around would hate them for it.

I do not believe for a moment that the Jewish people would have accepted any offer of land other than what they considered to be their homeland; they had been persecuted in most places they tried to live, and still are in many respects. And, as this is all rooted in historical and religious beliefs, no other lands would have held the same sense of a sacred homeland, which is what the Jewish people have always portrayed Israel as being. Consider it a no-win situation, thanks to Nazi Germany and it's leader.

As much as in the Middle East? The African's are in even more abject poverty, even more petty-squabbling, than the Arabs. And with an influential and democratic South Africa close by - I dunno, I can't help but think it would have been a better situation than the current one.

In this case, 'better' isn't necessarily 'more desirable.' Or even acceptable. Even if Kenya turned out to be a paradise, flowing with milk and honey instead of suicide bombers, a significant portion of the populace would, I think, have the promised land as their ultimate goal.

You mean never like when it was the Kingdom of Israel united under David? The whole Moses wandering the desert for 40 years after they were freed from Egypt, looking for the promised land thing ring a bell?

That IS their homeland.. there is no other place, Wailing Wall... ect. A Jewish person might actually refer to the Jews taking the land as a Reconquest from the Arabic people who took the land from them around 500 BCE.

The Jewish state has a right to exist. And we have an obligation to aid it, especially since we helped to recreate it after WWII. Israel is surrounded by nations and groups that openly work for the destruction of it and its people.

The "Palestinians", as they are, havent gotten a bad deal. Trillions of dollars in free, never have to pay it back, money to help them. Yet they squander it and funnel it away to their corrupt leaders who would rather point them in futile suicidal war than create a functioning responsible society.

And I hope we did take part in actions against Syria. Fucking Baathists for fuck sake... for all intents and purposes an offshoot of the Nazi Party. Remember Hama? Remember the Syrian Regime bulldozing an entire city along with 20,000 men, women and children into the ground?


Yea.. poor fucking Syria.. I wonder why we keep supporting Israel.

So we are going back to Ancient times? Alright...

Persians should be able to fight for ALL the land they had conquered, as well as Romans and such...

Your argument is so stupid it didnt even deserve a response...

The only reason the Jewish state exists is because of America. Most of the world holds no love for the world defying, arrogant country that is Israel.

Most of the world holds no love for the world defying, arrogant country that is Israel.

There's the open-mindedness, and brotherly love that is prolific throughout the Middle East.
I know I can feel it....
Could you please define "most of the world" and cite your sources?

most of the world in this case being pretty much everyone except the US, and the source being reality.

Well, who can argue with logic like that.....?!

Most of the world holds no love for the world defying, arrogant country that is Israel.

I have a break later Ill search through some databases. I'll also say that I've been told this by numerous instructors (OMG LIBERAL BIAS!!) and have heard it repeated often enough. I'm all for Israel having their own state - its the way they went about it which is troubling.


EDIT:

Here's one (http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/03/06/news/poll-knowlton.php)
One More (http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/home_page/325.php?nid=&id=&pnt=325&lb=hmpg1)

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/images/mar07/BBC_ViewsCountries_Mar07_graph1.jpg

Thank God for Nigeria and Kenya :D

Oh and hey... on Another note...

The Native Americans and Spanish that originally populated America before we RE-colonized it and took over should also get their sacred land back... Wow who are we to defy Ancient History...

If you didnt know that the only country that hangs on Israel's balls is America, then perhaps you dont need me to cite an article, but rather www.foxnews.com (http://www.foxnews.com)

I love Isreal. Glad we support them.

Wow. Calm down.
I mention Israels ancient history because you said they "Never" had a claim to the land. Thats just false. They have. It is their ancestral homeland and they have just a strong historic claim as any other group of people.

The Jewish state has an absolute right to exist. This was crystal clear following WW2 when a major reason why so many were slaughtered was their lack of a homeland for their people.

Israel established its existence as a pure good when it took millions of Russian Jews in that would have otherwise been exterminated by an insane Stalin. Antisemitism is a mental disease that has deep deep roots in far too many areas of the world. Its based on lies and irrational hatred, but its so ingrained that it may even take generations for it to fade away in Europe, even today, so the need for a Jewish homeland is absolute.

Secondly, they have a rock solid legal basis. Dozens of UN proclamations grant them the space to create a nation. The Palestinian people were given the equal opportunity, something never afforded to them. A opportunity they completely squandered. Additionally numerous treaties with surrounding countries (Jordan, Turkey, Whatever Arafat led) recognize advocate and appreciate the right of the Israeli state to exist where it is.
Besides, the Israeli state does not deny the rights of Arabs, or anyone, to live in Israel.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Palestinian_outside_palestine.png

With that above chart.. .keep in mind.. at the very highest estimate, 600,000 Palestinians moved from Israel in 1948.. and most of them left of their own free will on the urging of Arab leaders who declared war on the new state. Yet even today.. despite the "Horribly despotic, mean, nasty and oppressive" Jews, the Arab population of the Levant (Palestine) has increased 6x in the last 50 years. Why one has to wonder. The answer is painfully obvious that opportunity exists for them in Israel, where it does not in their home countries.

Thirdly they do not need anyones acknowledgment of a right to exist. They have established that right by kicking the shit out of anyone who tried to deny it to them. Say whatever you want.. but Israel singlehandedly whupped the living shit out of the combined might of the Arab nations in the Six Day War. They have exercised as broad a hold on the right of Self Determination as exists in the world today.

Israel exists primarily due to its own force of will. In that sense, the numberous wars of aggression have allowed Israel to stake a claim of conquest as real as that of any nation.

As far as the United States supporting Israel. You are damn right. We respect Israel. The Arab nations, floundering around helplessly, bemoaning their victimhood, reveling in their own incompetence, ignorance and backwardness pretty much disgust most Americans. The Arab countries are the "Welfare Queens" of the international community.
Israel on the other hand has taken the ball and run with it. They have pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps and created the most vibrant, dynamic, free and successful state in the region. Their agricultural achievements alone should have shamed the Arabs enough to get them to just shut the fuck up.

The US will always support Israel.

The Israelis know that if the Iraqi or the Iranian army came across the Jordan River, I would personally grab a rifle, get in a ditch, and fight and die.”
- President Bill Clinton



99% Americans, regardless of political ideology feel the exact same way and always will.

Deal with it

Duh people in America like Israel. Someone for fuck's sake tell me WHY.

Who gives a shit if 99% of Americans like Israel. Most don't even have cursory knowledge surrounding Israel and the politics behind the situation. Most cannot show you where Israel is on a map.

Jews aren't the saints that they are made out to be in American media. Why was Ariel Sharon nicknamed 'The Bulldozer'? What about the the Palestinian right of return, which has been upheld by the UN for decades yet still hasn't happened?

Israel is very impressive with a superpower up its ass, I'll admit that. You would think that with all of that assistance they would not have to resort to the same terrorist tactics that those damn arabs do. America is pretty fucked, but at least we stick to mostly conventional warfare.

If you love Israel, good for you. It will be an interesting situation if we ever lose enough stature so that we cannot thumb our noses at nearly unanimous world disapproval.

Oh for fucks sake..

Israel kicked the shit out of a 5 nation alliance that had total backing of a super power of its own in the Soviet Union. Dont give me that "impressive with a superpower up its ass" bullshit.

Boohoo.. Israel is mean. Have a fucking tissue. They have been attacked time and time again. They have been engaged in war for its very survival since the moment the nation was founded. How nice to sit back in a country where you have no fucking concept of what that means. We get attacked once in 60 years and we go total apeshit. They live with constant attacks and suicide bombings.

Yet still they prosper...

And many Americans are clueless.. but many millions are not. We are a nation of 300 million people. We keep reinforcing these moronic stereotypes about ourselves like some insane flaggelant ritual. But the reality is most of the people we know aren't clueless, they are aware and intelligent and make informed decisions most of the time on issues that concern them.

Israel is the good guy over there. They are wearing the hat closest to white. (Grayish). I for one, don't want to see the Assads, Saddams, King Fahds, Mubaraks, and al-Bashir's of this world ever triumph over the only real bastion of freedom and enlightenment in the area.

P.S. Halo.. take your nose out of Galloways ass... it is quite unbecoming.

Duh people in America like Israel. Someone for fuck's sake tell me WHY.

Who gives a shit if 99% of Americans like Israel. Most don't even have cursory knowledge surrounding Israel and the politics behind the situation. Most cannot show you where Israel is on a map.

Jews aren't the saints that they are made out to be in American media. Why was Ariel Sharon nicknamed 'The Bulldozer'? What about the the Palestinian right of return, which has been upheld by the UN for decades yet still hasn't happened?

Israel is very impressive with a superpower up its ass, I'll admit that. You would think that with all of that assistance they would not have to resort to the same terrorist tactics that those damn arabs do. America is pretty fucked, but at least we stick to mostly conventional warfare.

If you love Israel, good for you. It will be an interesting situation if we ever lose enough stature so that we cannot thumb our noses at nearly unanimous world disapproval.

Bold in quotes is mine.


Please cite some references to support your claims. You show an obvious animosity regarding this discussion, but have not given anything other than your opinion to support your claims.

And as far as your claim of Israel resorting to terrorist tactics, they have done exactly what our own friggin' president and vice-president have done; they have made a case for aggression based on "intelligence" and have struck to preserve their own security. That is exactly what this lame idiot in our capitol did with Iraq. The major difference is that Israel does not sacrifice upwards of 3,000 of it's own on false info, but instead makes sure of why action is needed before taking it.

As far as why "most Americans like Israel", maybe it has to do with the same sense of them being the underdog, much as we were in our infancy. They have offered their neighbors peace, and some have accepted, while others maintain a belligerent stance. Israel is not that different from the U.S. They want to exist without being hassled with, but will kick some ass if fucked with, and not apologize; but, they are also willing to reach out a hand of friendship to those that wish them no harm.

Israel is our best bet for an ally in that region. Our other "allies" in the region are all questionable, based on the manner in which they treat their own citizens actions against the U.S. and American interests, and the manner in which they have actively worked against our interests. (With the exception of Jordan, which is a strong ally, but one which we are bound to lose if we continue to approach diplomacy from an arrogant stance.)

'P.S. Halo.. take your nose out of Galloways ass... it is quite unbecoming.'


- I love ya too mate.

Alright...

Israel is a defiant stain on the region... They have Nuclear weapons which they are NOT allowed to have.

They violate U.N. Resolutions left and right, Thumb their noses at the International Community, and then have the Audacity to pull us in as their allies to clean up for them...

Dont give me no Bullshit about them needing nukes cause of everyone wanting to take them out... If any country attacks them, and they use a Nuke, Consider Israel destroyed by all the rest of the world that has nukes.

With your own logic, Iran should have nukes because the most powerfull country in the world who has them wants to invade their country?

Israel does not care about anyone... All I hear from them is how they are the Chosen people, and they are the ones who shall have that land, and blah blah blah... They are as dangerous a people as the terrorists responsible for 9/11.

The United States is so saturated with the Jewish community, that it is impossible for Logic to prevail over favoritism. Perhaps it is time to look at the big picture.

The Muslim world will not sit and do nothing. They will plan and fight untill their goal is accomplished. No amount of bombs or genocide will ever stop them from reaching their goals, because they believe that god is on their side.

For us to take ANY side in this conflict is to sentence our own people to death when we send them to eventually help fight in the Middle East.

If you really need me to show you sources I'll grab some later today. I thought it was just kind of understood that Israel engages in the same sort of tactics as their enemies. Have you never heard of an Israeli suicide bomber? Do you not know of Rafah? What about the tactics during the Lebanese/Hizbollah conflict? Is that really the type of warfare you are advocating? I know someone is going to say 'But Hizbollah was state-sponsored yada yada.' I believe this is true, however, how much of our consternation for the current administration and their shady warfare tactics is based off of a desire to seperate ourselves from the 'evil doers'?

I don't have any particular animosity towards Jews, save the fact that everyone in our country blindly accepts them, most without ANY knowledge on the topic. I remember 'liking' Israel growing up... Why wouldn't I? My fundamentalist Christian parents liked them and with the way the media portrays them here, I had no reason not to.

Israel wants to exist... yes - just like us. And just like us, other people have paid the price for their self-determination.

They are wearing the hat closest to white. (Grayish).

This is true, although that is not saying much.

There's no denying, the Israelis have used the tactics that have been used against them by the Palestinians (or Vice versa, as the case may be).
That makes it increasingly more difficult to tell the "Bad guys" from the "Good Guys".
It's human nature to hit back the same way you are hit.
If you get kicked in the crotch, your reaction (after falling to the ground, and groaning) is to try and hurt the person back, not to try and figure out why they kicked you in the first place.

There's no denying, the Israelis have used the tactics that have been used against them by the Palestinians (or Vice versa, as the case may be).
That makes it increasingly more difficult to tell the "Bad guys" from the "Good Guys".
It's human nature to hit back the same way you are hit.
If you get kicked in the crotch, your reaction (after falling to the ground, and groaning) is to try and hurt the person back, not to try and figure out why they kicked you in the first place.

Welcome to the reason Palestinians strap bombs to their chest and martyr themselves for their families, for their god, and for their land.

Who kicked thier crotches? The world (U.N.) when it created Israel?

Who kicked thier crotches? The world (U.N.) when it created Israel?

Israel when it took their homes and doomed them to the same existence that Israel was trying to escape?

They tried to "Take back what was thier's" as I recall in the Six Day War.
Are there any reasons these people have not been accepted into the countries to which they were displaced?
Remember when the Israel left Gaza a few years back?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/12/world/main833999.shtml

Remember what happened after that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zar%27it-Shtula_incident

The Muslim world will not sit and do nothing.

Yes, yes they will. Thats all they are capable of doing. They cant even help themselves, how in the hell are they in any position to help anyone else?

No.. they will continue to give lip service to the Palestinian cause, and use it as a distraction to their own people to draw attention to their own massive failings. And thats all.

'and use it as a distraction to their own people to draw attention to their own massive failings. And thats all.'


- Sounds familiar.

Yes, yes they will. Thats all they are capable of doing. They cant even help themselves, how in the hell are they in any position to help anyone else?

No.. they will continue to give lip service to the Palestinian cause, and use it as a distraction to their own people to draw attention to their own massive failings. And thats all.

How fast you forgot 9/11...

They tried to "Take back what was thier's" as I recall in the Six Day War.
Are there any reasons these people have not been accepted into the countries to which they were displaced?
Remember when the Israel left Gaza a few years back?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005...ain833999.shtml (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/12/world/main833999.shtml)

Remember what happened after that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zar%27it-Shtula_incident


They want Israel... Not Gaza... If someone takes my house, and then gives me back the front yard is that acceptable?

How fast you forgot 9/11...So "Muslim world" = terrorists?

So "Muslim world" = terrorists?

Terrorists are a part of the Muslim world, but that does not limit Muslims to Terrorists...

If a few men on airplanes can cause that kind of devestation, Muslim states with military can easily respond... And please remember that they hold the key to western civilization... Oil.

Yes Halo our government is using Iraq to distract us from our failings in Iraq!

You might land a job in the Bush Administration with that logic.

And Jedd... 9/11 was never about Israel or Palestine.. 9/11 was about Bin Laden looking to back the US off ME affairs in order for him to exert greater influence.

And remember... I said HELP anyone.
They cant even help themselves, how in the hell are they in any position to help anyone else?
Yay.. Muslim extremists can murder innocent people. How awesome. Thats it? Thats all the "Muslim World" is capable of in your opinion? How fucking sad and pathetic.
Small minded men with their inferiority complex looking to topple big buildings in order to alleviate their personal shame at their complete inability to matter in the 21st Century.
And what did it achieve?
And who did it help?

feckless... impotent.. Muhammad Atta, the failed Egyptian Engineer, not able to find any opportunity in his homeland, fails to have the ability to compete in Germany, and instead of having the balls to assess and overcome his own failings, lashes out in infantile anger, blaming others and murdering as he takes his own worthless life.

Yes Halo our government is using Iraq to distract us from our failings in Iraq!

You might land a job in the Bush Administration with that logic.

And Jedd... 9/11 was never about Israel or Palestine.. 9/11 was about Bin Laden looking to back the US off ME affairs in order for him to exert greater influence.

And remember... I said HELP anyone.

Yay.. Muslim extremists can murder innocent people. How awesome. Thats it? Thats all the "Muslim World" is capable of in your opinion? How fucking sad and pathetic.
Small minded men with their inferiority complex looking to topple big buildings in order to alleviate their personal shame at their complete inability to matter in the 21st Century.
And what did it achieve?
And who did it help?

feckless... impotent.. Muhammad Atta, the failed Egyptian Engineer, not able to find any opportunity in his homeland, fails to have the ability to compete in Germany, and instead of having the balls to assess and overcome his own failings, lashes out in infantile anger, blaming others and murdering as he takes his own worthless life.

If you think 9/11 has nothing to do with America's involvement in the Middle East INCLUDING the Israel/Palestinian conflict, you my friend are very ignorant!

Again.. Never said US involvement in the region.. but its definitely not about backing Israel.

Mossadeq ---> Revolution ---> Iran/Iraq War ---> Afganistan ----> Gulf War One ---> 9/11.

' And please remember that they hold the key to western civilization... Oil.'


- I would hardly call it the key to western civilization.

They want Israel... Not Gaza... If someone takes my house, and then gives me back the front yard is that acceptable?

It is if you want to co-exist with the person that took your house (That your ancestors took from thier ancestors.)
If the reaction of giving back something taken is to scream at the top of your lungs, "I WANT MORE!!!!", no one will listen.
Blowing people up isn't the correct response. While in the short term, it may get people to look at the situation, when it becomes a daily event, people tend to ignore it.
The answer, is to deal with the situation diplomatically.
"Wiping Isreal from the face of the Earth", isn't going to endear you to too many people.
Learning to coexist, is.
What would you have rather happened? For the Jews to wander the Earth, aimlessly, until the end of time?

It is if you want to co-exist with the person that took your house (That your ancestors took from thier ancestors.)
If the reaction of giving back something taken is to scream at the top of your lungs, "I WANT MORE!!!!", no one will listen.
Blowing people up isn't the correct response. While in the short term, it may get people to look at the situation, when it becomes a daily event, people tend to ignore it.
The answer, is to deal with the situation diplomatically.
"Wiping Isreal from the face of the Earth", isn't going to endear you to too many people.
Learning to coexist, is.
What would you have rather happened? For the Jews to wander the Earth, aimlessly, until the end of time?

I'm sure the Palestinians would love a swap... The jews can live in Gaza, and the Palestinians take what they have.

America is already like a Jewish colony, they can come here... most of them already have.

America is already like a Jewish colony, they can come here.


Paestinians can come here also, as well as Iranians, Iraqis, Eritreans, Brazilians and pretty much anyone else...we don't refuse that many people in case you havet noticed.

Paestinians can come here also, as well as Iranians, Iraqis, Eritreans, Brazilians and pretty much anyone else...we don't refuse that many people in case you havet noticed.

Sigh... i guess we can just agree to disagree.

What's to disagree about? Rover speaks the truth...
You just can't bring your allegiance to Jihad here to the U.S., and that's where the "Disagreement" begins....

What's to disagree about? Rover speaks the truth...
You just can't bring your allegiance to Jihad here to the U.S., and that's where the "Disagreement" begins....

I disagree that its as easy or as accepted for Palestinians to come and live in the U.S.

Where as it is alot easier and more accepted for Jews.

Understand?

Disagree all you want. Unless I see numbers, and proof, you are just complaining.

Why wouldn't it be easier to come to the US if you were from a country that at least gets along with the US? Why wouldn't it be easier to come to the US if you are from a country that's an ally and doesn't proclaim hatred of the US? Why wouldn't it be harder to come to the US if you were from a region/people that have caused terrorism against US interests? Why wouldn't it be harder to come here if a group of people committed terrorist acts against our allies?

Israel confirms attacks on Syria (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3455752,00.html)

Yeah it happened... and Russia has already taken hits on military arms sales. Their shit doesn't work against ours. Costly lesson for Syria.

Yeah it happened... and Russia has already taken hits on military arms sales. Their shit doesn't work against ours. Costly lesson for Syria.

Damn, Akipt, you put that so nicely!!!

But, it is the truth. Syria is also looking pretty silly saying that Israel attacked an empty building.