So, I'm just curious. With the launch of both these games happening *sometime* in the next 12 months, what do you guys think? It seems a lot of former EQ players have been burned by Sony enough that they aren't considering playing EQ2. Then again, a lot are raving over the pics and info that have been coming out in the last couple months and saying they will give Sony another chance. Are most of you leaning towards one game or the other, or going to try out both, or just outright quitting MMORPGs for good?

I'm fairly certain I'll never be able to make the time commitment that I feel is necessary to excel in another MMORPG, but I would be willing to give both games a shot. I played WoW beta for about a month, but I must say that I got bored very easily with little interaction with other players. I may end up buying one or both when they go live, but I can't really see myself playing them long term.

PS How the hell do I post a poll? :(

IMO: EQ2 > WoW. But we will see for sure.

I'll certainly try both. Now which one I will stick to... Depends on many factors. I personnally want to play WoW to play on the PvP server (as I love the lore of Warcraft). EQ2, I guess it will bring the interaction on new content with old people (I dearly hope they keep servers international and with the same name), and I do believe the overall PvE content will be more interesting on EQ2.


Soooo... It will be both "casually", as long as I can offer 2 accounts. :)

Hmmm, tough call.

I mean, everyone has known at some point and time in their gaming "careers" (cause it feels like a job sometimes) the frustration that comes with dealing with SOE.

Blizzard on the other hand is known for solid work, they just can't plan a release date.

WoW has great graphics, although they are cartoonish. EQ2 looks AWESOME! (with the most recent trailer) But I figure I'll have to lease a Gymnasium to hold all the Cray computers I'll need to actually play the game. It looks pretty graphic intensive.

WoW has some great lore (sat down, read the entire thing hehe, good stuff /thumbs up), but it's still fairly new and pales in comparison to EverQuests lore. I mean, say what you want about the game, EQ has one of the best lore stories in place, one that is constantly changing too. I'd even put it on par with Dungeon's and Dragon's. This is no small feat as it took D&D 30+ years to develop their various worlds, something EQ did in 5.

It's gonna be a tough call. There are definate advantages and disadvantages to both games, however I suspect that we might be comparing apples and oranges here. Both are MMO's based in a fantasy world, but both might be appealing to two entirely different types of markets. WoW might appeal to the more casual player whereas EQ2 might appeal to the more hardcore player (with Vanguard: Saga of Heros being for those that like self fladulation......look it up).

Anyhow, just my two cp's worth. I hope to beta test both of them eventually. Just being in the beta might help me make the decision.

Originally, I was really against WoW. I hated the cartoony graphics (and I still think gnomes draw the most retarded players across any game, I mean - Popi was a gnome!)

But honestly, after playing it...WoW is definitely more fun than I expected. The graphic might seem stupid, but they work. Maybe EQ2 will be good also, but I don't like their class breakdown system too much. With Sony already showing they can't balance 15 classes against one another...all this subset crap can't be much better..

lets not forget about hl2 :mad:

I sooo want to get into the WoW beta. Wonder if anyone is selling an account on ebay.

It seems a lot of former EQ players have been burned by Sony enough that they aren't considering playing EQ2.
like did sony come to their house and kick thier dog? I hear this comment all the time and I have never met ANYONE who has really been burned.

I sooo want to get into the WoW beta. Wonder if anyone is selling an account on ebay.
Less now than last time I looked, but still several.

http://search.ebay.com/wow-beta_Video-Games_W0QQcatrefZC12QQfromZR8QQsacategoryZ1249

I know a number of people who have no desire to play another SOE game. "Being burned by SOE" isn't an uncommon feeling (ask monks, for example).

I'm more likely to do EQ2 than WoW, myself, assuming I go the MMORPG route again. I want a game that looks good, and WoW just doesn't do it for me. Of course, this is all reliant on me actually being able to run the damn game.

I to feel burnt by SOE. Since I only have time to play about 2 - 3 hours a month i'm going to try the one that favors casual play the most. Who knows may not ever try a MMORPG again. Tough call but I do miss those first two years of EQ. I would love to get that feeling back in another game that's for sure.

Im leaning very heavily tword WoW. I originally wasnt very interested in EQ2 because of Sony's less than decent customer service. I did hear some things about the game that sounded like they could work out ok. But lately the more I learn, the more I see it crashing and burning.

Talid nailed one of my fears there, they cant balance the classess in EQ how the hell are they going to do it when there are more? Also I am not a fan of the models in EQ2. That being said if the game had something that sounded very appealing I might consider it despite my reservations. So far there isnt anything.

I have beta tested WoW though and can honestly say its a good game. I also didnt like the cartoony graphics but they grow on you.

My main concern with WoW is this... Sony may have been releasing expansions too quickly (unfinished, broken, buggy content), but will Blizzard release expansions too slowly? I mean, they take their time and try to get everything right but there comes a point where it makes more financial sense and makes your players happy to release something that is 95% (unlike Sony's ~75%). The opportunity cost of losing some players (minimal) by releasing a 95% done expansion, versus losing a potential large sum of players to other games because they get bored with the current content while you're finishing that last 5% in the next expansion. I could totally see Blizzard not prepared on this one. Imagine players eating through the base content in a 2-3 month period while Blizzard barely starts production on the first expansion.

I sooo want to get into the WoW beta. Wonder if anyone is selling an account on ebay.
Heh, you're about a week and a half too late to get mine. I don't really see that it's worth $350-$450 to play a game for a couple months anyway. *shrug*

Nah, just a broke ass college student with good business sense.
If by good business sense, you mean "will marry girl with money".


My main concern with WoW is this... Sony may have been releasing expansions too quickly (unfinished, broken, buggy content), but will Blizzard release expansions too slowly? I mean, they take their time and try to get everything right but there comes a point where it makes more financial sense and makes your players happy to release something that is 95% (unlike Sony's ~75%). The opportunity cost of losing some players (minimal) by releasing a 95% done expansion, versus losing a potential large sum of players to other games because they get bored with the current content while you're finishing that last 5% in the next expansion. I could totally see Blizzard not prepared on this one. Imagine players eating through the base content in a 2-3 month period while Blizzard barely starts production on the first expansion.
That's what I've been thinking. I don't see how they're going to possibly keep up with content to match all of the grassroots hype they've got going.

i would just like to point out that sony didn't have anything to do with the way the classes ended up comparing to each other, you have VI (you know, most of the people over at Sigil) to thank for that part, the only thing sony did at that was try to balance them out the best they could and failed at that ... so if you want to bitch about class balance blame VI, the only class sony has under their belt is the berzerker


for me its EQ2 all the way, the graphics in WoW to me are not nearly as immersive as EQ's and that is what will make the game in the end, how well a person feels in their environment, WoW just got too boring and i don't think i want to wait 2 months for blizzard to hold the release of the game due to building 12a having a slight shimmer on tile 112

If eq2 is working on release (i could care less about flawless,the only game that worked flawlessly out of the box these days was doom3) and seems to hold somewhat of an interest i'll play that, or wait for what ever comes out next, i have faith that the classes will be balanced but the only worry i have is the disparity (if there is going to be any) between the good and evil sides of the classes

I probably won't play either......just don't have the time or stamina (old man alert:') any more. Though like Os, if I did it would have to be the one that batter caters to an extremely casual player.

Okay, truth is I still have a P3, 800mhz...and little prospect of getting a new one anytime soon. Prolly shouldn't have dropped that 40k on a new car :o

Okay, truth is I still have a P3, 800mhz...and little prospect of getting a new one anytime soon. Prolly shouldn't have dropped that 40k on a new car :o
Car > cartoon Troll

I think both look interesting :) I'm just a casual player anyhow of all online games (mainly EQ & CoH now) due to RL. EQ2 I will try for sure- and will wait to hear what everyone thinks of WoW when that comes out. EQ2 just looks sweet- graphics and content-wise. ;)

Aalliya
63 Bard

My guild will certainly tell you I'm a fan-boy, but EQ2 all the way.

It's going in a direction I can appreciate, the small-scale interaction, from travelling, to banking, to exploring, and to encounters. It's going to be focusing on that area of game playing most of us love the most - being a newbie. And the fact that the concept, design and idea came from original EQ developers just gives me tingly feelings.

Of what I know, it's definately a game I'm set to pursue.

Plus.. rediscovering Norrath in each expansion in the order they originally came out is just ownish.

I also have a bad feeling that WoW might be more infested with younger l33tspeak kids because EQ2 doesn't have pvp.

I also have a bad feeling that WoW might be more infested with younger l33tspeak kids because EQ2 doesn't have pvp.
I agree until Mommy and Daddy get sick to death of junior's piss poor grades and decide to save a few bucks a month and cancel his shit. If I pick up WoW it wont be for like six months to let the little bitches filter out.

EQ2 seems like a nice casual game. Looks good

I'm inclined toward WoW on account of Blizzard's track record - I've played all their games but Warcraft 3, with very little to complain about. Classic Diablo and Starcraft are among the greatest PC games ever made. On the other hand, the Battle.net crowd is incredibly annoying.

To me, character models are secondary to the environment - give me a breathtaking dungeon crawl, and my toon could be drawn in ASCII for all I care. EQ lost a lot of luster after a few expansions. The quality of zone design slipped a bit after Kunark, and tumbled off the cliffs of greatness with Luclin, landing in the mediocrity of PoP. It's simply not the same, and I doubt that Sony could match Verant's accomplishments. But it feels like home.

Ultimately, I'm going to go where my friends go. Only they, not the design teams, make those countless LDoN crawls enjoyable.

One thing that many people fail to realize when talking about better service in WoW is that Blizzard has never done a MMO game before. Sure their games are great (I love Starcraft and Diablo), but single player games are not the same as running a constant, virtual world.

We've all probably heard good reports from beta testers, but release and the first 6 months will be the real test. Their CS might be worse than SOE or VI's was in the long-run.

I think Blizzard will do fine. They spent money and seem willing to spend some more, to get/keep it running. And all I have seen from EQ2 untill now, are Screenshots. I am not sure if EQ2 will be more like EQ v1.5. No RvR anymore, same zonenames, free choice on class/race-combo (Ogre Paladin? Highelf SK? Erudite Warrior? :eek: ) Will give Wow a chance. I think they have some exp. with mulitplayer games (Diablo I+II, Starcraft, Warcraft). Sure MMORP is a little different, but I think they are more able to keep the game interesting, than Mythic or AE-Entertainment ever been. But what comes will show the near future.

To me, character models are secondary to the environment - give me a breathtaking dungeon crawl, and my toon could be drawn in ASCII for all I care.

Bingo. I was perfectly happy playing text MUDs for years, as long as they were engaging (and two in particular I played for > 3 years each, very different flavors, and one was even an AberMUD). My money is on WoW at this particular juncture, as EQ's evolution over time doesn't point in the direction of story over style (or should I say quality over quantity ;) ).

I've got friends going to both WoW and EQ2, so if I'm proven wrong regarding the clear winner here, I don't think it'll kill me not to have made it out of the starting gate right at the gun (and can't afford the system EQ2 is going to require of me at this point anyway :) ). I do look forward to playing with old friends who have scattered to the four winds again though... and meeting new ones in a new milieu that will hopefully be as engrossing as EQ was once upon a time.

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Past Coercer - Autonomous Collective
aka
Epistasis
30 Gravity/Kinetics Controller
City of Heroes - Guardian

My brother has been busting his ass cadding all summer so he could buy my computer and a couple upgrades to play EQ2, so I guess I'll play EQ2 with him. Wow is a decent game for casual players, but I really have no idea how will EQ2 be, in term of challenge and time commitment. I might just stick to playing bejeweled.

'I think Blizzard will do fine. They spent money and seem willing to spend some more, to get/keep it running. And all I have seen from EQ2 untill now, are Screenshots. I am not sure if EQ2 will be more like EQ v1.5. No RvR anymore, same zonenames, free choice on class/race-combo (Ogre Paladin? Highelf SK? Erudite Warrior? :eek: )'

- There are a number of video's out of EQ2, not just the movie-type preview that WoW seems to enjoy releasing, but proper walkthrough on gameplay and such. One particular shows an encounter in Cazic Thule which is pretty damn stunning.

EQ is definately much further from EQ than WoW is. WoW is almost the same forumla, taking a similar perspective. EQ is leaning far more toward the scaling-down of things, to make it a lot like that "first" experience when you were a newbie. I think Sony have seen what ravage expansion can do to a game. EQ2 is going to be about small-scale things, zones, quests, adventures. Micro-game play.
For example, there are only 2 starting cities in the game, Freeport and Qeynos (but each are split up in to smaller towns and villages within the border for different races). Quests are always connected to the cities (cold-war type thing going on), travelling is fun again, no more PoK books or ports (well, not just yet), but using the boat, walking, and eventually horses is how we'll get about.
And while an Ogre may become a Paladin, it is in no way easy, and cannot be done from the start. Not for a long time. For starters, you need to align yourself with Qeynos, which is no simple task.

EQ just looks the sort of game that I personally am inclined to, something fresh and innovating. Whereas WoW just looks to be building on the same idea and aspects, only making it more fun. Which is good, but how long can that last? It's like an EverQuest expansion, different and fun, but fundamentally, it's the same as the stuff you're bored with.

EQ2 is going to be about small-scale things, zones, quests, adventures. Micro-game play.
Until Kunark is rediscovered again? ;)

I think it's pretty naive to believe that EQ2 will remain "small scale" on the long run.
EQ2 just looks the sort of game that I personally am inclined to, something fresh and innovating. (emphasis mine, I guess you forgot it)
In what aspect(s?) will it be fresh and innovating?
As I see it now, in EQ2 or WOW, start will be "small scale, micro game" kind of games. Heck in WoW everything can be done with one group, or even less, for now in beta.

I'm pretty sure soon enough dragons will appear on Norrath or Azeroth, and more groups will be needed to face those challenges, and so on, and so on...

Well no offense babe, but duh :P

Mudlfation and expansion will always grip a game and turn it in to something it's not intended, unless radical and game-altering mechanics are put in to place.
I can't assume to pretend what it will be like in a few years time, I can only base my judgement on a game now and today, from what I can see and find out.
Isn't that how most people judge things?

Stop being such a negative-poo /smack
Or j00 won't get haste in EQ2!

rediscovering the new expantions would be really cool, since EQ2 is far into the future they could basically swing what ever they wanted into each of these new continents, makes me excited to see what they think of lore wise

I don't plan on picking up either one until I get back from overseas June 2005 at the earliest. BUT, by then both games will have gotten past their infancy by then and the choice should be easier then, based on word of mouth. Either way, it will be whatever game gives the most fun and gobbles the least amount of time. Its a tough call. I have always like Blizzard stuff, but I never played a Blizzard title for over 5 years consistantly in the manner of EQ. Considering that it took some pretty extreme measures to seperate myself from EQ1, good bet EQ2 might be avoided IF it appears to be the same timesink as EQ1, only packaged up with prettier graphics. I would rather avoid a computer upgrade as well, too. Blizzard tends to do a pretty decent job of optimizing their games to run on a broad spectrum of platforms.

My last experience with a Blizzard game was D2, I was playing an snowball slinging prostitute. My 'lil ho and some Korean fella was duo'ing Hell Bhaal, I got bent over, I zoned back in, I clicked my corpse, all my shit flew out onto the ground. Click, Click, Click, that sneaky bastard snatched up those nifty rings that people were duping like mad. What were they called? Faga what? You know those damn magic find rings everyone was duping and using for currency. It took me months to find a couple of those rings legitimately and some tool snatched them up like a jackass and logged out. That was the last experience that I will ever have with Blizzard. fuck em. Well I suppose WoW will not be as vulnerable to little chubby hacker fags but It wont be any better than eq1 IMO. Damn you all to the Hell Cow Feed Lots:mad:

What were they called? Faga what? You know those damn magic find rings everyone was duping and using for currency.SoJ, Stone of Jordan.

I'm playing WoW right now and it truely is an excellent game. It really is a whole different experience when you lvl by doing quest instead of just grinding out exp. The quest move you around the world and introduce you to the game and it's mechanics. You can solo or group however you want and it doesn't rely on a holy trinity like eq did for so long. The lore is excellent and there is tons of it there. I love the graphics and music. It really fits well together. The few instanced dungeons I've done are great and the world just has an excellent feel to it. Also, there is plenty to add before the game is even close to being finished.

One of the coolest quest I've done so far was a mission for SI:7, a secret organization of spies and assassins for the alliance. I had to infiltrate a wizards tower to found out why he had undead around it and to steal his journal. First I had to steal the tower key from some undead guy who wandered around the tower and then I had to sneak to the top past all of his guards. I then proceeded to sap him over the head, which knocks out the mob for around 20 seconds and then pick the lock on his chest and steal his journal. It was very cool and was like playing Metal Gear Solid or Splinter Cell. That's just a small sampling of the cool stuff to do in WoW.

I also plan on giving EQ2 a chance just because of Ratongas. I'm not to thrilled about the changes they are making to bards and the character models are pretty ugly, but I like the idea of exploring a Norrath in the future.

I've got a level 27 mage on the pvp beta server in WoW (invis hehe, BOOM), and I'm so thoroughly addicted my hands shake as I think about it.

To the first guy that said WoW's lore is "new", I'd like to point to a few games. They're called the WarCraft series, and they're the history of this game. That's right, the game lore and storyline of WoW is built directly on Warcraft 1, Warcraft 2, Beyond the Dark Portal, Warcraft 3 and The Frozen Throne. These games are all multiple game-of-the-year holders.

A lot of people are too "new" to gaming, or in the case of this audience, maybe a stranger to the concept of Real Time Strategy games. Me, I'm an RTS nerd. I was roxx0ring people on Kali in Warcraft2 long before I ever set foot in a MUD, even less Norrath. That means that when I walk into Stormwind Keep in Azeroth in WoW, I marvel. Why do I marvel? Because before I can enter the city gates proper, I pass the Valley of Heroes, where 5 marvelous statues are placed. They're the statues of Alleria, Kurgan, Kargath, Danath and General Tyraluon. You have no idea who those are, do you? I do. I actually got a shiver down my spine when I first saw it, and it took me several minutes to jolt my memory to recall all there was to the epic storyline of Warcraft 2.

As for Blizzard's "newbie" status on the MMORPG market, I'd like you to consider Battle.Net, the world's largest, free, gaming portal on the web - solely for Blizzard products. Battle.Net singlehandedly supports hundreds of thousands of gamers on a daily basis, and since the launch of Warcraft3, and its revamp, has been completely flawless as far as I'm concerned. I haven't had to bitch at Battle.Net since my StarCraft days, where netsplits - the same problem that plagues IRC channels - were common. I haven't seen a netsplit in 4 years on Battle.Net. Yes, I still play on it. I was no1 on the WC3 3on3 ladder with my team (woop! shameful pat on the back).

And Halo, you simply have no idea how WoW works when you claim EQ2 will be more "down to earth" and "more back to the newbie days" than WoW. Shit, to me WoW is EQ done the right way. I woke up with my mage in the little abbey of Northshire (consult your Warcraft 1 lore), I started out doing small quests, exploring the storyline, and finding myself completely entranced by the stories the quests had to offer. This has continued throghout the game for me.

The game is completely quest related. I've *never* had to "go camp" for something, or even sat still in one place waiting for respawn. Not once. You do your quests, which can take everything from 1 minute to multiple hours (and, naturally, become more epic the longer you progress in the levels). A week ago I found the alarm clock bleeping at me at 6:30 am because I was so entrenched in the story of a quest I just had to "go a little further".

WoW, with Azeroth, Lordaeron, Kalimdor and Draenor. Yes, you get to open The Dark Portal during the course of WoW. Yes, it will be an epic serverwide quest. Yes, I will jizz my pants when I see it. Don't know what it is? Go play a game a lot older than EQ: Warcraft 1. Who said the Warcraft lore was new again?

The bottom line is, both are going to be great games. One only has to select which storyline/gameplay he or she wants and likes. If it comes down to which one will survive, well.. again, only time will tell.

Most likely both will survive.
Blizzard doesn't know failure and they have enough of a fanbase to keep rolling for a long long time aside from the hardcore MMORPG fans that are already interested in their product.

On the other hand SOE does know what failure is like because they A) inhereted a flawed system from Verant, and B) because they've been making mistakes and trying to repair them extensively. It'll be interesting to see what they can do from scratch designwise. They have the experience and the historically largest MMORPG there is to build on. Not to mention they still run the largest MMORPG there is, SW:G.

EDIT: Correction, SW:G numbers peaked upon launch thereby making it the largest MMORPG at the time. Currently, it is not in the lead.

Can you be any more of a Blizzard fanboy?

And EQ is still the largest MMO.

I cant stand the look of WoW. I wanna puke when I look at the profiles and hurl when I look at the spell icons. For me, it is barely tolerable in an RTS, it sickens me to no end when I see it in a mmo-game.
Besides, gameplay wise its EQ 1.5 from what I hear.. whatever.. been there, done that.. Ohhhh focus on quests.. wonderful. great. Have fun if its your thing. I could give a shit less about This rainbow-brite pastle colored strawberry shortcake candyland.
Wake me when Vanguard comes out.

Yup kivorn hit it on the head, EQ2 should be great because SOE can do the whole thing by themself ( well and its great anyway even right now :p ) instead of working on a very outdated system/engine that EQ is. Its still amazing what they manage to do on such a crappy engine as EQ.

>Wake me when Vanguard comes out.

<3 u 2 L2, i'll probably play eq2 till vanguard comes out, its nice seeing brad go one his crusade again to give a completely fanatic point of view in a MMO, such as he did in EQ

To me, the graphics in Vanguard didn't seem up to par with EQ2 (when noticing the water, etc.). I suppose though that the preview video isn't the finished product.

Vanguard looks fantastic to me. I gave up on their boards early on though. You can only take so many 'I WANT TO PLAY A DRAGON/VAMPIRE/WEREWOLF' posts :(

Can't beat LL's way of words :D

L2 made me feel bad 'cause I kinda liked WoW's graphics....=/

Can I be more of a Blizzard fanboy? Yeah. Most definately. I used to review games for a living, I've tossed Blizzard its' share of critique when it's been due. Its just that Blizzard games have always been more of a constant enjoyment to me throughout than anything else, and that includes 4 years of EverQuest - where I was bitching as much as I was playing due to the fact that it wasn't really ready for its' initial launch even 3 years after the release. Hi broken rangers.

L2, your argumentation is stale and old. For one, yes the graphics of WoW look shitty on screens and videos. Do you, pray tell, realize why? It's called a texture-based focus. When you play the game though you won't even realize it because they've managed to make it feel like you're running through a fairy tale with their, dare I say it, epic design feel.
Something when it comes to Blizzard, graphics and multiplayer that you have to realize is that they optimize performance. No more 3fps when zoning in on 3 mounted mages with spell effects on. You just don't lag if you have a decent computer in WoW. Ever. Not even in Stormwind at the auction house.

Now I realize that you're probably dead-impressed by EQ2's multitude of polygons and non-existant design feel, kiddo, but in the end as any 3d artist can tell you, it's about knowing how to do more with less. slapping additional polygons on a model and calling it superior art within the game industry has been done to death, and the concept usually dies out when the consumers realize their computers can't jump and strafe at the same time without the animations buttfucking its 3d accelerator and chewing up their ram sticks.

The whole "my mmorpg is better than yours" argument is stale. I probably won't try EQ2 based on the fact of me having zero trust in SOE after EQ and a stab at SWG, whereas Blizzard has yet to disappoint me - ever, and I'm already throroughly hooked at their game based on a beta alone. But at least I'm bright enough to realize that I have zero clue how EQ2 will pan out.

Trust me. No matter how much info you think you're sitting on, you're clueless too.

Kiv, it looks like ass because... to me.. the cartoony feel IS ass.
It is a saturday morning cartoon

.http://i.thottbot.com/Interface/Icons/INV_Jewelry_Ring_05.jpg
oh joy

Old He Man cartoons didnt seem like a video game either, and had a better plot, but it was still cornball.
http://shubhayan.com/favs/cartoonpic/He-Man.jpg

LOOK! A WoW warrior!

Listen.. I dont blame you though Kiv, your from Sweden for goddsakes.. The land where there are 486 different named shades of grey. You NEED all the pastels and cheery "my little pony" visual effects to keep from launching yourself into the closest fjord

Is WoW "cartoony"?
Yeah, and it's designed so on purpose.

The gameworld is hawt. It feels like real fantasy. I feel like I'm running around in a fairy tale. Immersion and feeling is a key selling point for me.

It looks 10 times better to succeed at fairy-tale fantasy than to fail at realism like most games do. Despite not being a wildly successful game and not having top-of-the-line graphics, DAoC still has a nice immersive feel to it that EQ lost long ago, in that you have consistently drawn out places, not individually excessive art sets linked together by completely generic clones of rocky canyons. I didn't play FFXXIXIXIX much at all but it did a decent job too despite a decidely cartoony universe.The most important element of game graphics isn't beating poly-count records on the female model's chest, but running smoothly and looking consistent and providing a sense of depth and breadth to the imagined world that lets your own imagination take off instead of just being superficially pretty and forgetable.

Apparently unlike most people I don't plan out my future time-wasting months in advance, but I know for damn sure I'm never playing another SoE game again, ever. Given all the hype I'll have to at least check out WoW, but I don't see it getting so much of my time like EQ did unless a bunch of my friends are there.

Kivorn, you at least said one thing that made sense:

Trust me. No matter how much info you think you're sitting on, you're clueless too.

First: WoW has changed significantly from Phase I to Phase II to Phase III, and Phase IV is probably this week. We don't know what we don't know at this point except for how the game looks and basic feel. You claim to only be level 29. Would you take advice on EQ about the game from a level 29 anything? And throw in the fact that there is no end game content in, only 2 classes (2 more this week probably) with talents, no hero classes at launch, I would say the jury is still out on WoW. Significantly.

I probably won't try EQ2 based on the fact of me having zero trust in SOE after EQ and a stab at SWG, whereas Blizzard has yet to disappoint me - ever, and I'm already throroughly hooked at their game based on a beta alone. But at least I'm bright enough to realize that I have zero clue how EQ2 will pan out.

One of the worst things for me personally about WoW, is the Blizzard community, which is at least twice as bad as EQ's. And my experience in WoW definitely reinforces that. Let's not put Blizzard up on a pedestal here, as they have more than their fair share of mistakes - just look at the exploits rampant in their games due to, among other things, poor coding. And this includes almost all of their games, but especially Diablo I & II, Starcraft and Warcraft 3. Does anyone not remember the mess battle.net was when Starcraft launched? Similar to the first week of EQ's launch, you could rarely connect. Now I will give Blizzard much credit for the amount of patches they do for their games, even years after release. Their support is amazing, but let's not forget they aren't even close to perfect at launch.

And speaking of trust, with Hero classes being removed from WoW at launch, who knows where this could go. But it's made the list as something they said would be at launch and now, like so much in SW:G, will be sometime "post launch".

While I think WoW is a very good game, it's not the end all / be all of MMOs.

Silwenae

you at least said one thing that made sense:
And yet you made none. =/
We don't know what we don't know at this point except for how the game looks and basic feel.
I don't know, but when players hit max level with multiple characters, when you have structured guild/clan, when many quests are available for almost all levels... It's more than "basic feel", isn't it?
You claim to only be level 29. Would you take advice on EQ about the game from a level 29 anything?
If I never played EQ, yes of course!! Lol he knows more than me about WoW just because he's playing it atm. Should I deny his knowledge because he's not *gasp* max level??? That's so lol.
One of the worst things for me personally about WoW, is the Blizzard community, which is at least twice as bad as EQ's. And my experience in WoW definitely reinforces that.
Probably because their games are free. ;)
It will change with release, mom and dad will look up their CC, don't touch it kiddo! (well, I hope...)
but let's not forget they aren't even close to perfect at launch.
Who said they were? Who can claim he is??? Nothing in computer programming is perfect at launch. (hell it's written on all games/programs/software boxes you buy)
like so much in SW:G
*cringes*It's almost funny that you compare WoW to SW:G, without mentionning EQ2 develloped by the same company... But whatever.
it's not the end all / be all of MMOs
Who said that? :(
It's sad that people SIDE with one game and think the other is crap. If you aren't for, you are against. That's so logical. OMG I don't like the graphics, it must be a bad game!!! (like anyone cares of the mose coming out your ears after one week...)

2 games, for different kind of people. And different kind of computers too. ;)

/meekly raises hand, waiting for the thrown rotten fruit

Hehe, it was I that said the Warcraft Lore was new, and I stand corrected.

What I should have said is that it was new to me. I did play WC 1 and 2, never did 3 (too busy playing EQ/SWG LOL ), and appreciated the story line, but didn't follow it with the same interest as I have with the EQ lore.

It wasn't until Blizzard actually compiled it into one document and posted it on the boards that I said "Wow, that's really neat!".

I've never claimed WoW is the holy grail of games or that Blizzard is its progenitor and should be worshipped as a holy prophet, Silwenae. Now to rebutt some of your comments:

Would you trust a level 29 of anything in EQ? No. But EQ's been out for 5 years. A level 29 in beta3 was god when it comes to EQ news and information. Don't look at my level, think of someone who beat EQ, and is now one of the few that even plays WoW. I know what EQ's like, and I know what SOE's like. I also know how Blizzard is. Now I also know what WoW is like on many planes.

Would I take advice from a level 29 in the EQ2 beta on how the game is? Fuck yes. Does he know what the endgame is like? Probably not. But 80% of any MMORPG's population never reaches the endgame anyway. I doubt more than 5% of WoW's populace will go romping down the Emerald Dream. That doesn't mean it isn't important. What it means though is that I'm "high enough level" to report on the content that not only everyone will have to go through, but where many will remain for the duration of their mmorpg experience.

As for the Blizzard community it's split into several different camps. You have the loudmouthed fourteen-year-olds, of course. But those you have in EQ too (hah! I actually typed eq2 instead of eq too there, freudian slip?) if you know where to look. The thing with Battle.Net, naturally, is that it's free. It's free and the games played on it are of competitive nature, something that always brings out the worst in people.
Will the famous Batt.Net idiocy crowd over to WoW? The answer will be yes, and no. Yes because they're blizzard fanboys. No because it'll A) cost cash and B) is in essence a long term investment. Some will come. It's inevitable. Hopefully they will be few, and far inbetween.

I never said Battle.Net was perfect on launch. I even listed the most common problem, the netsplits, in my post. Instead, I said that it's perfect now. As far as I know (I don't play Diablo 2 anymore) Battle.Net is now as stable as any MMORPG server network.

As for the exploits rampant within the Blizzard games, you need to stop and consider why these exploits exist. They exist mostly because they're the best RTS there are. I'm not saying that because I'm a blizzard fanboy, I'm saying that when it comes to competitive gameplay StarCraft and WarCraft 3 is the benchmark everything else is measured against. Regardless, cheats within SC and WC3 are virtually non existant. The only SC "codebug" I ever tried out was the CC-slide, because that was the only glitch to even bother with. It took them two weeks to fix it, and many who used it (including my account) had their accounts deleted. Blizzard has always enforced a strict anti-cheating policy and regularely bans thousands of cd-keys based on replays or off their logs.

Again, every game has its glitch. Hi item-dupe in Diablo! Well then don't forget his cousin item-dupe in EQ. Etc. The point is that Blizzard is hands down the best there is at balancing gameplay and they're also dedicated to weeding out bugs. They don't stop updating their games, ever. They simply have an impressive track record. As far as I'm concerned, nothing is perfect at launch. Ever. Never has been. Never will be.

But Blizzard usually deliver what they promise. Always has in the past. As for hero classes, we'll see, but as far as I'm concerned it's not even important that they go live with release anyway. Better to have a finished game 1-60 than to add flavor past 60. That will come soon enough anyway. Remember that it's Tigole who runs the Blizzard shop.

Finally, I don't believe there ever will be an "end all / be all" mmorpg. Or anything for that matter. There'll always come something stronger, better, faster more fit along to knock the old king off his throne, no matter the context.

Binuven, don't worry about the lore thing :) If you read it and it agreed with you you'll just appreciate the WoW universe that much more. Sort of like knowing the story to Kerafyrm was the shit when you first entered Sleeper's Tomb to wake the bastard up. It just added so much more feeling.

I personally will try both games and stick with the one that entertains me the most.

A lot of the arguments here, however, echo my thoughts all along.

More often than not the fanboys will scream "Omg it's Blizzard! Blizzard = teh win", and the same can be said by those who worship the ground that Sony walk on.

The whole "burned by Sony" thing is bullshit, plain and simple. If you felt that your class wasnt getting any love, then it's time to change classes. If everyone stops playing the broken class then Sony would have fixed it, or at least listened to the playerbase more. As far as bad Customer Service goes, yeah Sony wasnt the greatest listener in most situations, but how many times did you ever need to run screaming to a GM that Lilfagbitch the level 13 wizard just KSd your fire beetle? I've been playing EverQuest for 5 years and in that time I've only talked to a GM twice, the first time was when a guy was harrassing me in tells (when I was new to the game and didnt know about the /ignore command) and the second time was when a GM was bored in the Plane of Knowledge and used a knockback on me, sending me from the main bank all the way to the evil quarter for fun.

Other than that, I've had no need to contact a GM about anything, and many of my friends have said the same thing.

The whole Blizzard being the saviours of the MMORPG scene has yet to be proven. Frankly I think they will succeed. World of Warcraft will be a stable, solid game, but there will be mistakes made and there will be the odd hardcore Blizzard fan who gets dissolutioned that their saviour has failed them.

This is Blizzard's FIRST MMORPG. Forget Warcraft, forget Diablo, forget Battle.net. They werent MMORPGs. Sure, they were playable online and in Diablo 2's case it felt like an MMORPG, but the individual game servers werent constant and didnt have to handle the strain of 2000 people online at once. The main servers just had to allocate space and resources, and D2 wasnt exactly a very demanding game. Now look at World of Warcraft, which will be a proper MMORPG with constant uptime and heavy server strain. I have no doubts that Blizzard will have taken this into account and will have worked around the problems that other companies have experienced, especially if they read the book known as Funcom's "How not to make an MMORPG" guide. However, they will make mistakes, as everyone does. Anyone expecting a perfectly flawless launch will be disappointed. The only flawless launch that I experienced was City of Heroes, but CoH is pretty much half the game that EQ/EQ2/WoW is/was/will be.

I personally have nothing bad to say about Sony after 5 years of EverQuest, so I will try EverQuest 2. If EverQuest 2 blows, then that's just tough shit on my behalf. I've tried enough MMORPGs and spent enough money on them that it doesnt faze me if one sucks ass. Sure, its a bummer, especially if you've been looking forward to it for years, but when it comes down to it it's always a gamble trying something new in whatever you do.

That said, I'll also try WoW even when playing EQ2 (provided EQ2 is released before WoW) and judge it then. If I find that I enjoy WoW more than EQ2, then it's goodbye EQ2, and vice versa.

As it stands, EverQuest 2 seems more interesting to me than WoW does, but that's because I love the EverQuest lore, and I want to see exactly what happens.

The lack of locks on race/class combinations is a better opportunity for roleplaying in my eyes.

Imagine that you're a Dark Elf and fighting is all you've ever known since birth but you have a strong belief in that your actions will change the face of Norrath. As a Dark Elf you would be pressured to become a Shadowknight, to embrace Innoruuk and focus his hate into yourself to fuel your power, but what if the love you received as a child from your parents made it difficult for you to embrace hatred? What if you wanted to show your people that there is more to life than hatred and loathing. They may not accept it and may even banish you, but what's stopping you from proving to others that not all Dark Elves are vicious, evil bastards by becoming the polar opposite of everything they are...A Paladin.

Hell, you could even have a Dark Elf Paladin who longs to be good but falls into the ways of his people by butchering folk and claiming it in the name of Purging of the Unclean.

It'd encourage people to be more creative, that's for sure, and it'd make the game a little fresher. How many times have you seen a Wood Elf Druid or a Vah Shir Beastlord? Dozens? Hundreds? At least this way people would be able to be a little different.

Kiv, it looks like ass because... to me.. the cartoony feel IS ass.
It is a saturday morning cartoon
Much like "truth" in today's world, you cannot just asses an idea based on one portion. WoW's "cartoony" graphics are barely noticeable. Kivorn hit it on the head when he said it flowed really well together. It's a solid game, the videos out there don't do it justice, much less the icons of equipment.

I cant stand the look of WoW. I wanna puke when I look at the profiles and hurl when I look at the spell icons. For me, it is barely tolerable in an RTS, it sickens me to no end when I see it in a mmo-game.
Besides, gameplay wise its EQ 1.5 from what I hear.. whatever.. been there, done that.. Ohhhh focus on quests.. wonderful. great. Have fun if its your thing. I could give a shit less about This rainbow-brite pastle colored strawberry shortcake candyland.
Wake me when Vanguard comes out.
Ll make things realalistic mean we will see the Flaws more. Making the character more iconic give us a better change of humanizing the illusion. All that eye candy mean less time is spent making game play better. I would also like the point out that in real combat weapons system they make everything into simple icon so it's easier to read and understand in spilt second. The more Goop you put on the screen mean more wasted because we fade out most of it anyways and focus on the simplist information coming at us. Why waste that Dev time when immersion is not going to be effected by the "realism"

Why so much hate? :(

Both games could be great. If I had to choose one, it'd be WoW though. I've always liked blizzard games, and I love the art style in the game. Absolutely nothing wrong with 'cartoony' IMO, especially when it's done so well. Some people just don't have a taste for it I suppose, just like how some don't like realism, no biggie.

like did sony come to their house and kick thier dog? I hear this comment all the time and I have never met ANYONE who has really been burned.

You never played a necro in the really, really early days didja? Abashi came to every one of our houses, kicked us in the nuts, and burned us with a cigarette.

You never played a necro in the really, really early days didja? Abashi came to every one of our houses, kicked us in the nuts, and burned us with a cigarette.
He may not have, but I was a necro for the first year and a half of EverQuest and I dont remember anything but good times. My only complaints back then about the Necro class were against people who thought we shouldnt group and therefore would tell us "no" when we asked to join, not against the class itself.

It's all relative, just because people see a class differently than it actually is doesnt mean the class is broken, just that there too many small minded people running around. Hell, it's like back in the day when people said that HP gear was a waste of time. If they said that now they'd be laughed at.

>You never played a necro in the really, really early days didja? Abashi came to every one of our houses, kicked us in the nuts, and burned us with a cigarette.

i believe abashi = VI, why does everyone want to blanket all their complaints with Sony when it was VI running everything with early EQ. Sony has a good chance, and a great developer team, i'm going to be giving them a chance, as i gave blizzard a chance, not my type of game so i'm not going to play it


>All that eye candy mean less time is spent making game play better.

this is absolutely hilarious, now the same people who work on eye candy, also work on developing gameplay, lore, classes, and balancing! (heres a clue, people who work on eye candy, don't work on developing gameplay, lore, classes or balancing - those are different developers)

>this is absolutely hilarious, now the same people who work on eye candy, also work on developing gameplay, lore, classes, and balancing! (heres a clue, people who work on eye candy, don't work on developing gameplay, lore, classes or balancing - those are different developers)
I'm talking about CPU time not Dev time. How much of the CPU time is being used when it could be used to make the game better. game running smoother less encumbering easier to code game play. how much of the DEV time is simply turn off and never used. A waste of time if it never gets seen

...the necro thing was a joke. O_o

You never played a necro in the really, really early days didja? Abashi came to every one of our houses, kicked us in the nuts, and burned us with a cigarette.
This was the early days? :/

i for 1 will be playing eq2. i didnt get the chance to play eq early on i realy want to be part of that in eq2.

so far it looks good i hope the performace is as good as it looks.

That early on feeling won't be at all the same, probably. When EQ came out, there was no such thing as ShowEQ or MacroQuest or two boxing. Over the past five years, people have figured out too many ways to trivialize a MMO for it to ever be that same learning curve I think.

another thing about the early feeling of EQ, it was the first one, there was no strategy to it, there was no way to find the little details out, we logged on and saw a 3d bat fly by us and we were amused, we got to talk to npc's, we got to buy stuff, make stuff, kill stuff all in real time and talk to other people while doing it while running away like little fruit cakes


with all the sites out right now, giving basic strategies to healing, tanking, dmging, taking advantage of pathing (*cough* zehn *cough*) the game won't be new anymore, eq had something, that was it was the first, not the first MMO, the first 3d MMO, after that we had something we call expectations, now everytime a new game comes out we have this predicted expectations of the game, we don't want healers to break the game, we don't want rogues to deal the most dps, we don't want this to happen, we don't want to have to camp anything, we don't want to spend our whole life getting lvl 50, something we had ZERO idea about going into EQ

unless a game comes out thats different from the genre i doubt you will have those kind of feelings again, having something to not expect anything out of would be nice

Actually UO was among the first...I was playing it when EQ was announced..EQ just gave us a different aspect to the way we played MMO's. (First person, 3-D world was just to compelling to give up..hehe)
The days where unrest was jam packed and people were selling bronze armor because it was among the best is long past us now.
As was said, there's too many cheater or info sites out now that basically trivialize the games we play. (Online and offline, and some even BEFORE a game is officially out)
Too many people want it easier in MMO's but when they get it they complain about how its trivial now and should be made harder..Ala PoK travel stones, cheap armor/weapons in the bazaar alot better than most of us had in the first 2-3 years of play in alot of cases..
There are very few true noobies (?) in EQ nowadays since most people just race to get 65 asap.
Just my 2cp.....

Thats gonna be something I will definitely not do, is rush to spoiler sites, I think this go around I'm just going to figure it out by myself. That's what was the most fun for me in the beginning, making my own maps, and figuring out tradeskills by myself, now you can find everything there is to know almost before it's even released

My son is giving me the deluxe full bells and whistles collector's edition whatever of EQ2 as a birthday gift, so I will definitely be giving it a look-see.

Also, since I missed the opening days of EQ (I started just before Velious hit) I am looking forward to seeing something that is new to everyone the same as it is to me, taking in to account the above mentioned stuff as far as knowng how to play, two-boxing, strategies, etc.
The simple fact that it will be day 1 for everyone all over again, with no idea where the goodies are dropped or by what, will make it a lot of fun again. We might even have a level playing field for at least a couple weeks.:p

Unfortunately, Bylimet, there'll be several thousand hardened beta testers ready to rock & roll on the day of the launch.
A leveled playing field simply cannot exist in today's world of games.

Everyday I feel more like EQ2 is gonna get a huge jump on WoW, release date wise that is.

Especially after this latest patch?

Your hunter pet needs feeding Fazin. Don't let him get angry with you.

I just get the feeling Blizzard is gonna fiddle and fiddle and tweak and tweak...

Seen the latest shitstorm that's been blowing up regarding "class roles"?
Man I hope WoW doesn't fall into the same trap that EQ did.

"class roles" pisses me off in game development, i wish the community would just freakin drop it

Given the two most successful online fantasy games, EQ and Dark Age, have had "class roles" flames going since inception, that would seem to be more a sign of a healthy (if neurotic) community rather than necesarily a bad omen for the game :>

I am somewhat concerned that the level of overexposure for pretty much every up-and-coming game out there, regardless of genre, has gotten to the point that people are developing min/max strategies often before they're even released. To me that seems to be the most self-defeating way to go about your leisure time, and really kills the novelty and imaginative "whoa, neat, that's A BIG ORC!" exploratory frolicking phase of the game in which it's often most fun.

After playing WoW for a long time, I prefer having a variety of methods to go about doing something. I have a feeling EQ2 is going to let me down big time.

"whoa, neat, that's A BIG ORC!" exploratory frolicking phase of the game in which it's often most fun.

That's what I like about WoW. Though the magic and wonder of the first time I played EQ is gone, I'm enjoying the scenery in WoW very much so. On'Goro's Crater looks absolutely beautiful and the first time an Ironside Devisaur walks by you you simply shit your pants. Exploring for the simple sake of exploring is actually -fun- since...unless you're exploiting to get by GoB's Fazin...when you die it's a 5-10 minute set back.

For example...if you wandered into a new EQ zone and got shit raped by the first mob you saw you'd realize you now have a 50-hour long CR on your hands. In WoW I feared a mob and it ran right into a pack of it's friends. Getting monster stomped by 12 adds made me actually start laughing.

Either that or it's sleep deprevation.

Heh, "dude, go pull all those mobs and run back", "ok"

He got owned, but he still listened!

I wonder how much that 3-headed hydra hits for...

*splat*

The best idea a company could come up with would be to remove a limit to how many people you can have in your group at any one time.

I mean, lets say EverQuest is real and you and 5 friends are wandering around killing things, but the shit starts to hit the fan. You have a Warrior, Cleric, Monk, Druid, Rogue and Enchanter in your group and a Necromancer comes along. His DPS could help you kill a whole lot faster, reduce your clerics downtime and in a pinch act as short duration crowd control, would you seriously say "Sorry, we havent got any "room" in our group for you".

It would be ideal if they scaled it properly so that you could have as many people in your group as you need, whilst scaling the exp down for every person that joins. Eventually you'd get to a point where you'd be getting less exp, but raping enemies so badly that you wouldnt care. This would then lead on to people saying "Lets get ourselves a few more Necromancers".

If either Sony or Blizzard could balance it so that every class will work well together in different situations (obviously with their benefits and disadvantages still intact as otherwise it'd be pointless playing one class when another does everything the same or better) then it'd be feasible that a group with a Cleric, four or five "less needed/valued" classes, a Warrior and an Enchanter would be just as viable for exp as your traditional Warrior, Cleric, Rogue, Monk, Enchanter, Druid combination. Sure, the first group would have 2 extra people, but they'd be able to tackle slightly tougher creatures and even out the difference whilst allowing those people who chose a different class to feel like they werent following the natural order of things and joining Mr A, B and C in the line as Mr D to gain experienced without fear of reprisal.

Got too few DPS? Grab a few more and head for something tougher!
Warrior dying too much? Grab a druid to help your cleric heal a bit whilst not sacrificing your DPS!
Got a sucky Enchanter(*cough*Haloface*cough*;))? Grab another one and assign your current enchanter to another task so that he doesnt feel bad!

After all, it's only a game, why hurt a persons feelings over a game because you've died a few times?

But it's all about balance, and balancing a ton of classes against each other and THEN keeping them balanced as you add new content is always going to be the challenge of the century.

The best idea a company could come up with would be to remove a limit to how many people you can have in your group at any one time.
You gain Raid Exp

Not quite the same thing, I'm talking group, not a collection of groups.

Besides, how often do you see a group that needs one or two more people than the group capacity allows say "I know, lets form a raid and you two can tag along!"?

Answer: Not very often indeed.

mmmm no max group size for my bard songs

ok first off.... the eq 2 and PVP thing... There is going to be a little PVP in eq they are just gonna keep people from being screwed over by Nuisance players and to keep people from harrassing other people. So just not a HUGE pvp system.

Second.. Blizzards only online venture was Blizzard.net which the TOP three creators of it have left BLIZZARD to make there own company named Arena Net which is coming out with a SWEET PVP game thats gonna be FREE ONLINE BTW. WWW.GUILDwars.com (http://www.GUILDwars.com)


Considering they lost there invovative thinkers who created Blizzard.net for them.. I think they are going to have a hard time with a online game ..... just until they get some experience under there belt.


BTW the cartoony Graphics in WOW are the only reason I wont play it.. GOD I HATE THOSE GRAPHICS.

I'd suggest giving it a try. It may grow on you. The nice thing about those graphics is that nothing seems out of place in the world. The graphics are -really- well done, even if you don't like the artistry. And you should see some of the absolutely sexy landscaping. The first time I ran through Ashenvale I was blown away.

And I think having no cap to a group mechanism would only feasably work in a game where you didn't get XP from killing, only a set amount of xp from completely objectives independant of groups size. What I'd like, is for all through beta Blizzard balances the game for a group of 5, but when it goes live they allow up to 6 or 7 people to form up groups.

One thing you have to realize is in WoW, you don't group for XP. You group to do a certain quest, or a certain instance. If you're doing XP, you grab one or two friends or even go it solo. Any group of 3 characters can finish -any- non elite quest regardless of the three classes. 2 characters can finish nearly any and a solo character can solo all of them, though he may need ot gain a few levels first.

Anyways.

I think I'll end up playing both. WoW is really fun and relaxing and I like the world enough to give them 15 bucks a month and enjoy their world...but I think I'll be playing EQ2 only until Vanguard comes out.

'ok first off.... the eq 2 and PVP thing... There is going to be a little PVP in eq they are just gonna keep people from being screwed over by Nuisance players and to keep people from harrassing other people. So just not a HUGE pvp system'


- That's not really the reasons. There won't be PvP at release, or for some time. No arenas, no duals, nothing.
They say it's because they want to focus on PvE as much as possible. And I tend to believe that. Let's face it - they just can't do PvP well. So why bother at all?

What is Blizzard.net? Do you mean Battle.net?

Yeah woopsy yea I meant Battle.net... still ALL and ALL they lost there right hand man and then some.




BTW u gotta check out this game if you are a PVP fan its gonna be tight www.guildwars.com

Yeah. I think I'll pass.
Guild Wars has been pretty hyped, but so far it hasn't delivered at all.
I'm waiting for the report from PAX before I even bother with that.

Also, a few programmers won't make or break a company. Now if you'd told me Rob Pardo would've walked out on them, then I'd worry.

- That's not really the reasons. There won't be PvP at release, or for some time. No arenas, no duals, nothing.
They say it's because they want to focus on PvE as much as possible. And I tend to believe that. Let's face it - they just can't do PvP well. So why bother at all?
WoW has done a beautiful job of implementing pvp and pve, especially on the PVE servers. You don't have to pvp, but if you want to, there's a lot more fun to it then arenas like there was in EQ. Honestly, saying "they just can't do PVP well." is not a good excuse to not do pvp. It's a nice distraction for some, it may not be a good thing for you, but there's a market for it.

Rob Pardo
FROM THE PRICE IS RIGHT?

I think that was Rod Roddy :)