Second half of 2008


http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2008/may/wotlkvivendi.jpg

Payed no attention to it all. when it launches i'll get it. mean while i'm still working on my earthshaker set and have crapload of Shadow moon quests to do.

Payed no attention to it all. when it launches i'll get it. mean while i'm still working on my earthshaker set and have crapload of Shadow moon quests to do.


Vel, tell me you did not get implants!?! :D

ROFL, that would be my rogue for those :) Her's are real, they might not be her's, but there real!

No fucking way. Their target is November 2008, but like their last expansion it'll be well into 2009. And like their last expansion, you'll beat it all a month later except for all the raid content you'll need to do 20-100 times before you can move on to the next instance.

But...but....who wouldn't want to raid with 24 Death Knights?

Or PvP with all Death Knights....

Or have a sexy party with all Death Knights.... :p

No fucking way. Their target is November 2008, but like their last expansion it'll be well into 2009. And like their last expansion, you'll beat it all a month later except for all the raid content you'll need to do 20-100 times before you can move on to the next instance.

well to be fair the way EQ2 is now it's the same way... stupid fucking flagging you spend forever flagging people to move to the next tier :(

Eh, I dunno about that.

Say your guild wants to start raiding. In WoW (for the last 9 months) you go to Karazhan with only 10 people (and the rest of your guild goes in another instance or waits). In EQ2 you had Thuuga, Pawbuster, Protector's Realm, as well as all of the outside contested mobs (WoW has 2 outdoor contested mobs Kazzak and Doomreaver but both are too difficult to do w/o having farmed Karazhan a ton). WoW did just add another 10-man instance, though that was only recently and I haven't played it. So yeah, you might have 2 dungeons now. Conversely, EQ2 released Hate which has content for all levels of guilds, so its a wash.

Then you move up the next tier. That would be Gruul's Lair which is 2 mobs and a steep gear-required curve for Gruul himself. Alternatively in Everquest you have Kor-Sha and Venril Sathir's Lair.

The third tier in WoW has 2 dungeons with plenty of content: Serpentshrine and whatever one Kael is in. However now you're pretty deep into gear requirements and its too late, you can't simply raid 1-2 nights a week and hope to make it this far.

WoW has much better and smoother gameplay and the leveling is a lot more fun, but when it comes to depth and replayability Everquest2 is leagues ahead.

Long story short, there's no casual raiding in WoW that will get past the first few zones, so you either casually raid Karazhan over and over or you raid "hardcore" in Karazhan 4 nights a week and Gruul's Lair 2 nights a week until your guild has enough gear to move on. But you have a member burn out and you have to poach geared members from other guilds OR go back and gear them up. Conversely in EQ2 we've taken folks who've never raided a day before in their life to fight Overking Selrach and Maestro of Rancor.

I'm not quite sure what flagging is needed, but I've raided 6 different zones so far and haven't needed a flag for any of them. I must assume its something much higher.

They announced a lot of new info regarding WOTLK... For instance

All 25 man raids have a 10 man version. The loot in 25 mans is 1 tier above that of the 10 mans, and does not require doing the 10 mans to move to the 25 in any way including gear requirements.

All "flaging" has been removed from Wow as of patch 2.4. There is heroic badge gear that rivals the best gear in the game Tier 6. Badges are gathered doing daily quest, Karahzan, 25 man dungeons or Herioc version of 5 man dungeons.

A casual could gather T6 quality gear doing 1-2 heroics a day for a couple months. Wow has dropped a lot of the requirements to appeal to the casual player.

The WoW you describe is not the same game I play.

So Kelraz how long did it take your guild to get out of T1/T2 in EQ2? B/C many of the "casual" guilds I know in EQ2 on my server are either a) falling apart b/c members are joinnig other guilds b) turning into hardcore guilds so they can get out of T1.

We just suffered a huge loss in membership b/c we weren't moving fast enough. We still haven't beaten pawbuster. Our turnover is tremendous in EQ2.

So Kelraz how long did it take your guild to get out of T1/T2 in EQ2? B/C many of the "casual" guilds I know in EQ2 on my server are either a) falling apart b/c members are joinnig other guilds b) turning into hardcore guilds so they can get out of T1.

We just suffered a huge loss in membership b/c we weren't moving fast enough. We still haven't beaten pawbuster. Our turnover is tremendous in EQ2.

Oh. Well I'm in Prism, and we're not really a raiding guild. So I joined one of the "raiding alliances" which is just a pickup group that uses DKP and they raid 3x a week (Mon, Wed, Sat). I don't raid weekends because my girlfriend won't let me, so I only raid with them once or twice a week. It wasn't until May 3rd, just a few weeks ago we beat Pawbuster, we skipped him and went right into Protector's Realm and Kor'sha. We haven't beaten Venril or Overking or the Maidens in the Plane of Hate yet - but we keep getting close :)

The alliance formed halfway through EoF and we never cleared past the 1st floor in Emerald Halls or anything in Felwithe.

I haven't been in Kor-sha yet. Is it harder/same as PR?

If you remember a Chardok Queen raid in EQ1 the last battle is very similar ... TONS of adds. Its a great throwback to EQ1.

Its harder than PR but now you have PR gear, so it is just as difficult as PR was when you first started trying it.

Pshh. If you had a decent monk pulling, you could fight the Chardok Queen almost solo.

Pshh. If you had a decent monk pulling, you could fight the Chardok Queen almost solo.

Yeah, but it still was an adrenaline rush the first few times. Of course, once a few encounters had been won, and tactics reviewed, it was simply a matter of having sufficient AE casters along to obliterate the adds quickly.

Our first time going at the royals, I was able to avoid dying as a Rogue until I had looted the scroll for the cleric to MQ. And then, we were one-grouping for alts down the road. Sick.

I really did enjoy Chardok, in it's day. :D

HAH! Chardok raids in PoH gear and only a smattering of epics among the raid was some of the most fun i've ever had gaming.

HAH! Chardok raids in PoH gear and only a smattering of epics among the raid was some of the most fun i've ever had gaming.

The clerics looked so cute in purple.

well to be fair the way EQ2 is now it's the same way... stupid fucking flagging you spend forever flagging people to move to the next tier :(

Aye.. Dumbasses. Although T3 is now open to everyone as long as one person has access. Crypt of Agony to fight The Leviathan.

Aye.. Dumbasses. Although T3 is now open to everyone as long as one person has access. Crypt of Agony to fight The Leviathan.

Wow when did I miss this?!!?

So is Kor-sha a T1 or T2 zone and does it require flags?

I've never gotten a flag before in my life. So I doubt it requires flags. Its the next tier above Pawbuster (ha), Thuuga, and Protector's Realm in line with Venril Sathir.

lol well I don't see that happening I guess we'll stick to hate and PR to keep gearing the new folks /wrists. I srsly might have to consider leaving this great guild at some point we are progressing waaaaaaaaay too slow for my liking :(

Has anything new been released in the last month or two as far as info on the Lich King expansion? I know I have not been able to dig anything up other than the original basic statement on it, outlining the new character and level increase, and new areas to explore.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/

Scroll down, lots of information

Thanks.

Eh, I dunno about that.

Say your guild wants to start raiding. In WoW (for the last 9 months) you go to Karazhan with only 10 people (and the rest of your guild goes in another instance or waits). In EQ2 you had Thuuga, Pawbuster, Protector's Realm, as well as all of the outside contested mobs (WoW has 2 outdoor contested mobs Kazzak and Doomreaver but both are too difficult to do w/o having farmed Karazhan a ton). WoW did just add another 10-man instance, though that was only recently and I haven't played it. So yeah, you might have 2 dungeons now. Conversely, EQ2 released Hate which has content for all levels of guilds, so its a wash.

At the start, you have all of the Heroics (like what....15 or so?), and Kara (ignoring the old world raids since no one really does them....but they are an option). So really, a guild jsut starting to raid has around 15 or so options each night + your instance of Kara for the week. Some of the heroics are harder than others, and there are a few you will probably save for when you are better geared.

Then you move up the next tier. That would be Gruul's Lair which is 2 mobs and a steep gear-required curve for Gruul himself. Alternatively in Everquest you have Kor-Sha and Venril Sathir's Lair. Moving up to the next tier, you have Grull, Mags, and Zul'Aman. Grull has 2 boss encounters (one of which is 5 bosses, but only one drops items). Gruul and Mags do not require your guild to be Kara'd out, and neither does Zul'Aman (though it does require you to have a bit of gear).

The third tier in WoW has 2 dungeons with plenty of content: Serpentshrine and whatever one Kael is in. However now you're pretty deep into gear requirements and its too late, you can't simply raid 1-2 nights a week and hope to make it this far.SSC does reuire a bit of gear, but as you said, it is the third major step for a guild. TK is a bit above SSC, but can be started here as well.

I have never done Sunwell, but I think it comes after SSC and TK in progression. There is also BT which is the current "end game" zone.

WoW has much better and smoother gameplay and the leveling is a lot more fun, but when it comes to depth and replayability Everquest2 is leagues ahead.

Long story short, there's no casual raiding in WoW that will get past the first few zones, so you either casually raid Karazhan over and over or you raid "hardcore" in Karazhan 4 nights a week and Gruul's Lair 2 nights a week until your guild has enough gear to move on. But you have a member burn out and you have to poach geared members from other guilds OR go back and gear them up. Conversely in EQ2 we've taken folks who've never raided a day before in their life to fight Overking Selrach and Maestro of Rancor.

I'm not quite sure what flagging is needed, but I've raided 6 different zones so far and haven't needed a flag for any of them. I must assume its something much higher.I hated leveling in both EQ2 and WoW...but I have to say that WoW has been much more fun once I finished leveling. The heroics just give you so many options (without ever having to step foot inside of a 10 man or 25 man raid).

Eh, I dunno about that.

Say your guild wants to start raiding. In WoW (for the last 9 months) you go to Karazhan with only 10 people (and the rest of your guild goes in another instance or waits). In EQ2 you had Thuuga, Pawbuster, Protector's Realm, as well as all of the outside contested mobs (WoW has 2 outdoor contested mobs Kazzak and Doomreaver but both are too difficult to do w/o having farmed Karazhan a ton). WoW did just add another 10-man instance, though that was only recently and I haven't played it. So yeah, you might have 2 dungeons now. Conversely, EQ2 released Hate which has content for all levels of guilds, so its a wash.

Then you move up the next tier. That would be Gruul's Lair which is 2 mobs and a steep gear-required curve for Gruul himself. Alternatively in Everquest you have Kor-Sha and Venril Sathir's Lair.

The third tier in WoW has 2 dungeons with plenty of content: Serpentshrine and whatever one Kael is in. However now you're pretty deep into gear requirements and its too late, you can't simply raid 1-2 nights a week and hope to make it this far.

WoW has much better and smoother gameplay and the leveling is a lot more fun, but when it comes to depth and replayability Everquest2 is leagues ahead.

Long story short, there's no casual raiding in WoW that will get past the first few zones, so you either casually raid Karazhan over and over or you raid "hardcore" in Karazhan 4 nights a week and Gruul's Lair 2 nights a week until your guild has enough gear to move on. But you have a member burn out and you have to poach geared members from other guilds OR go back and gear them up. Conversely in EQ2 we've taken folks who've never raided a day before in their life to fight Overking Selrach and Maestro of Rancor.

I'm not quite sure what flagging is needed, but I've raided 6 different zones so far and haven't needed a flag for any of them. I must assume its something much higher.
Hmm I must have missed that 4 weeks ago. Anyway...

/wears wow fanboi suit
The only "feature" you missed Kelraz, is that gearing *is* easy in WoW. Very easy. Too easy maybe, with the badges system. When they released BT (Black Temple) and MH (Mont Hyjal) you could get "T5-like" gear from collecting badges in KZ or heroic instances, and now they released SW (SunWell) you can buy T6 like gear (the one you get from BT and MH) from badge vendor. Not to mention some PvP pieces are easy to get and are decent-to-goddamn-overpowered for PvE (S3 weapons, anyone?).

Not to mention any flagging was removed from all dungeons, beside KZ (but you can enter it as long as someone in the raid has a key).

It's true that content is "poor" in WoW, a tenth of 5-man instances, 2 10-man and 7 25-man, but raiding "casually" in WoW is quite easy, because gear is easily available to gear-check each step of progression.

Screw WoW

Anyone want to buy a t6 geared undead mage?

Screw WoW

Anyone want to buy a t6 geared undead mage?

Mine is a t6 geared undead LADY mage with every enchanting recipe in the game, pay me more!

Anyone who has a big boner for WoW hasn't been playing longer than a year, I think I did Karazhan a few thousand times before deactivating my account, and doing all the 5-man dungeons I already did 100x over again doesn't seem appealing to me. EQ2 manages to pump out an expansion every year instead of every other with tons more solo, group, and raid content ... and even that isn't enough to keep me hooked like EQ1 was.

Mine is a t6 geared undead LADY mage with every enchanting recipe in the game, pay me more!

Anyone who has a big boner for WoW hasn't been playing longer than a year, I think I did Karazhan a few thousand times before deactivating my account, and doing all the 5-man dungeons I already did 100x over again doesn't seem appealing to me. EQ2 manages to pump out an expansion every year instead of every other with tons more solo, group, and raid content ... and even that isn't enough to keep me hooked like EQ1 was.

I enjoy WoW for one very basic reason........I can log on when I have a free hour and actually do stuff. I have never raided, or been tagged by a guild, or gone looking for a group to do anything. EQ was my source for that kind of enjoyment, and WoW is strictly for some quiet leisure time. I have a 70 Hunter that I can use to PL any class I feel like doing, and I have setup several chars with varied trades on another account so I can mess around that way. WoW is not now, nor will ever be, a game to be played with the intensity I gave EQ; it is only for a entertaining distraction. And, I have had an account since the game went live.

That said, I am looking forward to the expansion, to try another class, and get my Hunter to 80 (solo).

Mine is a t6 geared undead LADY mage with every enchanting recipe in the game, pay me more!

Anyone who has a big boner for WoW hasn't been playing longer than a year, I think I did Karazhan a few thousand times before deactivating my account, and doing all the 5-man dungeons I already did 100x over again doesn't seem appealing to me. EQ2 manages to pump out an expansion every year instead of every other with tons more solo, group, and raid content ... and even that isn't enough to keep me hooked like EQ1 was.I'm sorry you didn't find a 25-man raiding guild Kel. :p

My guild was the first Alliance guild to kill Razorgore worldwide, we were clear through Blackwing Lair and bored when Ahn'quiraj came out months later. The server was overpopulated with a 60-120 minute queue most week nights, so we signed up for a transfer. Half signed up on day 1 of 3 days ... and they closed the transfer on day 2, locking half the guild out. Half stuck on one server, the other half on the other. GMs say "sorry!"We didn't want to raid with half a guild, so I remade a Horde char.

Horde guild had ~50 members, and then they release the next expansion and tell us we aren't doing 40 man raids anymore. So we were over crowded and ~15 people a night couldn't raid on Gruul's Lair and Serpentshrine Cavern nights. We did Karazhan 4 nights a week for ~6 months (~96 trips) and had people sit out for Gruul's Lair and Serpentshrine which we did 2 nights a week. But because of the stupid keys you needed to get into The Eye and Serpentshrine we kept having to go back and reflag people, and since we were doing Karazhan 4 nights a week people got bored and kept quitting ... and if you didn't have EXACTLY 3 Druids, 3 Shaman, 4 Warriors, 2 Hunters, 1 Shadow Priest, 3 Regular Priests ... you couldn't succeed in the raid and would waste your night ...

The raiding model in WoW sucks. Its one of the worst. The encounters are great and fun and challenging, but having to have exactly 25 people (24 and 26 just won't do), and they MUST play specific classes or they are a waste of space and you'll fail is awful. Everquest we were able to bring whomever wanted to come. Everquest2 there's a lot more flexibility. City of Heroes it just doesn't matter, even levels, because the mobs scale to your level +1 regardless of what level you are. And WoW was a great game outside of raiding, but they only release non-raid content every 6 months ...

I sincerely doubt you'll be able to find, across all of the servers, a single person who played WoW at launch who still plays today. Their slow content development and fast progression lend people to get burnt out pretty quick.

I was (I say past tense because its been a few weeks since I even logged on) in the top raiding guild on the server, ranked like 80th on Wowjitsu for a while.

Raiding isnt that fun. Its like a big dance number. EQ had that competition aspect that WoW lacks. You only really compete against guildies for DKP.

Nah, Ive got Illidan loot, could be getting Sunwell loot, but I just can't bring myself to care enough to stay logged on for more than a couple hours. Now, im having too much fun in AoC.

I do enjoy the lack of CONTROL on the names of chars in WoW, as compared to the overbearing GM's and censors of EQ.

I have a dorf Rogue named Pokeyman.

I tried to name a Tauren Shaman Samthesham, but it was not available; but, I was able to get Barakyomama for the toon. :D

I always get a kick out of the people saying WoW raiding was too easy. I've yet to hear from a guild that was in Naxx (pre-expansion) who thought it was easy.

For that matter, the TBC raids in beta were brutally hard. Kara was a nightmare. They tuned it all way down before release, because so many people were crying about Naxx being too hard at the time.

hehe. me and friend have a new duo to level.
him undead warrior named Alicecooper me undead mage named Coldethell. so yea i love the lax naming in WoW.

with AQ40 finally came difficulty. Even then,Twin Emps and Cthun, with Naxx some were easy some were hard.

I always get a kick out of the people saying WoW raiding was too easy. I've yet to hear from a guild that was in Naxx (pre-expansion) who thought it was easy.

For that matter, the TBC raids in beta were brutally hard. Kara was a nightmare. They tuned it all way down before release, because so many people were crying about Naxx being too hard at the time.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone refer to it as easy. AQ I've only beaten everything but the last 3 guys and only beat the first few in Naxx, but they were great. And if you were short a few people it didn't matter as much since it was 38 / 40 instead of 23 / 25.

I do, however, think the design flaw lies in as the raid groups shrink there are certain classes that are vital per encounter. Starting just in Karazhan, where you can only have 10 people (and if you have 9 you don't have a prayer) ... the first fight needs 1 extra tank, the second fight needs 2 priests (at least it did back before you had the gear from said fight and beyond), the third fight needs 1 paladin. So for the first 3 fights you need 2 tanks, 2 priests, and a paladin (who might also be a tank, but that is very rare). That's 50% of your group makeup that is a "must have" or you can't go on. Nevermind there are warlocks, mages, shaman, hunters, rogues, druids still to be fit in here. Later fights require a warlock, some require the AE skills of a mage ... and its great if you are that class, but if your guild is missing 1 priest and you can't get past Moroes after 100 tries that night, its pretty stupid. And since you need more than 10 people in your guild to raid Gruul, Serpentshrine, etc. you have 2 groups of 10 in Kara a night and 5 people with thumbs up asses waiting outside.

And then for Maulgar you need 3 tanks, 1 mage tank, 1 hunter tank, 2 warlock tanks, a warrior with mortal strikes, and 9 healers. 17 people, room for 8 dps. But the VERY next encounter, Gruul, having melee dps is worthless. So you end up subbing out your 3 extra tanks OR you just don't have the dps to finish the encounter and all your raid members are shattering each other. Now I'm sure these encounters may be easier now, but the expansion has been out for nearly 2 years and most of the people I played with didn't have 2 years to wait around for the content to get better.

And then, somehow slipping through the stupidity filter, even though raiding is capped at 25 people - they release 2 world encounters that require 40 people to kill. So you and your guild need to instantly find another 15 people to take these down.

Point being, I doubt there's a single person playing now that played 2 years ago - it just would have gotten way too boring for them - or if they are, they keep rerolling alts and only play a half hour every other week.

It's always the EQ people who say it's easy (without coming anywhere close to the top end raids).

I would definitely agree that it's a monotonous treadmill to be on (at least, when I played), but that's any MMO. If you don't have to farm the hell out of something, be it raid gear, faction, consumables, AAs, etc, then they can't possibly generate content fast enough to keep up.

I've yet to play an MMO where the devs keep the content rolling fast enough for the people at the hardcore end of things. Likewise I've yet to play an MMO where you didn't have to farm gear to be able to progress in the tiers.

I can't really comment on WoW raiding, I did so little of it I have no room to speak of it. I really did enjoy the game from 1-70 and then even at 70 for a few months while I did BGs and instances and such but it just got way boring and felt like I was doing the same stuff over and over again. I don't know why I do, but I like EQ2 raiding more I just have no specifics reasons for it. I will reactivate for the WoW expansion most likely though jsut b/c it will be fun to see new content without having to raid :)

The only real problem with WoW is how badly they screwed up the game with PVP every time they retuned for it. Most of the hardcore raider burnout at the high end wasn't over lack of content (most people didn't kill Illidan until late last year and only had a few months of 'nothing to do' until the Sunwell) but that you can drool for epixes as usual in PVP for far less effort than getting them in PVE and thus the little rat brains of raiders don't feel satisfied with their status pixels. They aren't releasing content slower than old EQ did, they're just doing it in smaller chunks which may be a mistake as it lets people devour the single new thing too quickly.

Most of the game is reasonably easy but they do throw hard stuff in there, however by the time most people get it to it they've put out at least 2 gear crutches to bring people waaaay past the itemisation level the encounters were tuned around. The general complaint about their raid content is that too much of it all simon dances of don't stand in the fire while you do the hokey pokey. The reasonably hard encounters had people held back until ... months from now. The average guild only recently got the gear crutches to make Gruul and Magtheridon easy (although the did nerf the hell out of Magtheridon), still can't beat Vashj reliably or Kael-thas at all, and instantly gets owned by Sunwell trash.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone refer to it as easy. AQ I've only beaten everything but the last 3 guys and only beat the first few in Naxx, but they were great. And if you were short a few people it didn't matter as much since it was 38 / 40 instead of 23 / 25.

I do, however, think the design flaw lies in as the raid groups shrink there are certain classes that are vital per encounter. Starting just in Karazhan, where you can only have 10 people (and if you have 9 you don't have a prayer) ... the first fight needs 1 extra tank, the second fight needs 2 priests (at least it did back before you had the gear from said fight and beyond), the third fight needs 1 paladin. So for the first 3 fights you need 2 tanks, 2 priests, and a paladin (who might also be a tank, but that is very rare). That's 50% of your group makeup that is a "must have" or you can't go on. Nevermind there are warlocks, mages, shaman, hunters, rogues, druids still to be fit in here. Later fights require a warlock, some require the AE skills of a mage ... and its great if you are that class, but if your guild is missing 1 priest and you can't get past Moroes after 100 tries that night, its pretty stupid. And since you need more than 10 people in your guild to raid Gruul, Serpentshrine, etc. you have 2 groups of 10 in Kara a night and 5 people with thumbs up asses waiting outside.

And then for Maulgar you need 3 tanks, 1 mage tank, 1 hunter tank, 2 warlock tanks, a warrior with mortal strikes, and 9 healers. 17 people, room for 8 dps. But the VERY next encounter, Gruul, having melee dps is worthless. So you end up subbing out your 3 extra tanks OR you just don't have the dps to finish the encounter and all your raid members are shattering each other. Now I'm sure these encounters may be easier now, but the expansion has been out for nearly 2 years and most of the people I played with didn't have 2 years to wait around for the content to get better.

And then, somehow slipping through the stupidity filter, even though raiding is capped at 25 people - they release 2 world encounters that require 40 people to kill. So you and your guild need to instantly find another 15 people to take these down.

Point being, I doubt there's a single person playing now that played 2 years ago - it just would have gotten way too boring for them - or if they are, they keep rerolling alts and only play a half hour every other week.
Almost everything is wrong, exagerated or unrelated.

First Karazhan :
Beside 2 tanks for Attumen, and 1 warlock for the "optional" Illoof fight, no fight really required more than a balanced group to beat them.
Of course if you think "damn we can't beat KZ with 10 rogues, what a flawed game!" then of course you'll find that the game "failed" you.
2 tanks, 3 healers and 5 dps classes, in any "balanced" combination are enough for all KZ fights, even in "heroic" gear. Even if some setups are better than others for specific fights; 2 priests for Moroes is great of course, but you can have a mage and/or hunter kite one add around (my ex did it with her fire spec mage), or a paladin undead stun and tank one.

There are 9 classes in WoW, and you could and can easily do KZ with one of each. (3 can tank, 4 can heal and 9 can dps)

Now Gruul's lair :
3 tanks for Maulgar ok, well if you from 2 with 10 men raid you can add one more for 15 more members.
1 tank mage, 1 tank hunter and 1 (why 2?) tank warlock sure, but you'll notice they are all dps as well, and... Not the same class. Yay for diversity?
I don't see why you want a MS warrior (kick and pummel?), but anyway he's still a dps class.
Now about melee dps being worthless for Gruul. Well I don't know why. No pulse aoe or something, just put them in the back of Gruul, and that's it. And out of these 3 tanks you still need 2 for Gruul himself. Not to mention that druid's tank can be effective dps as well.

Nearly 2 years :
TBC is out since January 2007. That's one big 2nd year or something. All content wasn't available from scratch too. And all the content isn't cleared yet by the vaaaaaast majority of WoW players.
Like all contents from BWL, AQ and Naxx.

Bash wow pvp all you want, for it's flawed, unbalanced and whatnot.
But to say pve is crap... Sorry I can't let you say that. :)

Oh and I play WoW, and at least 10 people of my guild, since day 1.