http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6232628.stm

- A triumph for US diplomacy?
This isn't making much talk on the forums, but I think it's perhaps the most notable (see: only) achievement of Bush's "axis of evil" drive since the 2001 bombings.

It is a huge step, far more notabe than Libya's disarmament, and much more accomplished than either the Afghanistan or Iraq occupations.

I don't praise ye Yanks often, but this is a huge step. Let's hear it for diplomacy.

This is North Korea we are talking about, Halo. Let's wait for another four weeks, and see if the reactor has indeed been shut down at that time.

possibly Byte, but i've thought all along this was more about bribery than actually wanting weapons.
NK is desperate economically and desperate people are dangerous.

I agree.

We've seen a continual 'desperate' climbdown from them diplomatically in the past few months. Firing off increasingly dangerous (but equally ineffecient) missles toward Japan with an equal willingness to come to the drawing board smells too much like compromise than assertiveness.

Domestic developments too have changed my opinion, like the railway crossings. Maybe as Kim comes to the end, certain factions are willing to relieve North Korea's desperate plight?

Who knows. All I know is that the shutdown of one of NK's most dangerous reactors is a single achievement - but of course, as you say Byl, we have to wait and see. I have high hopes, though.

Rice has been steadily gaining greater influence in the administration over the crazy Cheneyites, and it's showing with a willingness to speak to Iran and Syria, and with this hopeful resolution to the NK issue. If NK follows through, it will definitely be a good thing.

But Clinton did it, too! :p

According to this morning's paper, the North Koreans have announced they have shut down the reactor. The UN inspection team willl now be moving on verification processes.

Does this mean that one of the sources for black market nuclear materials has been stifled? My cynicism is showing, because I do not see the NK leader, lil Kim 2, as being willing to forego that kind of money and prestige and notoriety that accompany trading in those venues. I continue to take a wait and see attitude.

His people are very very hungy and the need for industrial materials grows and grows.

He was pushed in a box by all sides and will now reap the rewards for behaving.

My worry is, would we be able to tell if he had a small station set up to continue producing weapons grade plutonium?

Fandros

He plays good little boy now, until next admin comes into power. Then does whatever he wants again, and yeah they all starving and the men outnumber the women there like some insane number 14, 16-1 think they would be asking for women.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6936158.stm

- /bump

According to this morning's paper, the North Koreans have announced they have shut down the reactor. The UN inspection team willl now be moving on verification processes.

Does this mean that one of the sources for black market nuclear materials has been stifled? My cynicism is showing, because I do not see the NK leader, lil Kim 2, as being willing to forego that kind of money and prestige and notoriety that accompany trading in those venues. I continue to take a wait and see attitude.


Ummmm, neener neener.....

Here we are coming to the end of March, 2008, and North Korea is still dicking around with handing over information promised by the end of last year.

We are still almost as in the dark now about NK's nuclear program as we were when they promised to shut things down. My cynicism has so far not been disappointed by the folks in the North.

/shameless bump

Why aren't folks wanting to talk about what is going on with the "other" member of the Axis of Evil? North Korea was being praised for finally coming around and opening up to the West with the shutting down of reactors and full disclosure of their program; unfortunately, that was bullshit, once again.

Now with South Korea electing a more hard-line President, and the two sides flexing their penii (is that a word?) at each other, any hopes of getting North Korea to honor the commitments made to the West are sliding quickly backwards.

China is in the midst of hosting the Olympics, and does not want the distractions this wayward child poses, so who is going to intervene if conflict erupts? Is it now time to pull our troops out of this region, and re-deploy elsewhere? Possibly in an area that would allow for some lessening of National Guard troops having to serve on the front lines of a war zone?

Time to start paying more attention to the far east, as well as the middle east.

/shameless bump

Why aren't folks wanting to talk about what is going on with the "other" member of the Axis of Evil? North Korea was being praised for finally coming around and opening up to the West with the shutting down of reactors and full disclosure of their program; unfortunately, that was bullshit, once again.

Now with South Korea electing a more hard-line President, and the two sides flexing their penii (is that a word?) at each other, any hopes of getting North Korea to honor the commitments made to the West are sliding quickly backwards.

China is in the midst of hosting the Olympics, and does not want the distractions this wayward child poses, so who is going to intervene if conflict erupts? Is it now time to pull our troops out of this region, and re-deploy elsewhere? Possibly in an area that would allow for some lessening of National Guard troops having to serve on the front lines of a war zone?

Time to start paying more attention to the far east, as well as the middle east.

I think you missed that article the other day that said that the US hadn't lived up to its end of the bargain yet, and therefore North Korea is moving at a snails pace.

North Korea Wednesday blamed the United States for the deadlock in a nuclear disarmament agreement, saying Washington has carried out "zero percent" of its side of the deal.

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/North_Korea_Blames_US_For_Impasse_In_Nuclear_Talks _999.html

As always, Jedd is the single most naive person on the planet.

Pyongyang has said it submitted a full list in November. But the US insists it is still waiting for a complete declaration, including a full account of a suspected covert uranium enrichment programme and any proliferation moves.That means we know they're withholding information. If you ignore this, then you think North Korea is more honorable than the US.

But go ahead, ignore how we treated Lybia. That's how you disarm a nuclear program and we fulfilled our duties and promises likewise.

As always, Jedd is the single most naive person on the planet.

That means we know they're withholding information. If you ignore this, then you think North Korea is more honorable than the US.

But go ahead, ignore how we treated Lybia. That's how you disarm a nuclear program and we fulfilled our duties and promises likewise.

Its not that I trust North Korea... Its that I do not trust our government to actually be doing anything other then leaving the issue open as to use it again during the general election.

Yeah, this administration has had so many foreign policy successes they can afford to sweet a couple under the rug to keep the lemmings under toe.

You need to get out more.

Yeah, this administration has had so many foreign policy successes they can afford to sweet a couple under the rug to keep the lemmings under toe.

You need to get out more.

Fact is, a North Korea Nuke scare would get McCain into the White house.

Fact huh? I'd say Iran is doing well enough all its own in that regard. A success in North Korea would just put more pressure and attention on Iran's refusal to meet international demands.

Fact huh? I'd say Iran is doing well enough all its own in that regard. A success in North Korea would just put more pressure and attention on Iran's refusal to meet international demands.

The Iran situation was mostly defused to the public with the NIE report. Nothing since that and the Persian Gulf incident has done enough to scare people. You are correct that an escalation of the Iran Nuclear standoff could do it for the Republicans.

I simply believe that it would not be enough, and that they would really have to scare the bejesus out of everyone. That won't happen unless we got nuclear threats coming from all directions.

I could be wrong, but I seem to remember everything being fine with North Korea's declaration, and that being the big news, that they had declared everything and agreed to stop nuclear proliferation. Now that they are saying they have gotten nothing we hear that the US doesn't believe they have declared everything.

Believe what you want, I will remain skeptical.

I could be wrong, but I seem to remember everything being fine with North Korea's declaration...I would assume after the agreement was first announced and NK released "all" their information that it would take some time for our analysts to sort through "everything." Once we couldn't match up what they were admitting to with everything we know they have, it's a simple matter of saying "And where's the rest... ?" And of course a simple matter for you to go pink in the face with conspiracy.

Congress has committee(s) briefed on this intelligence difference. If we were holding an international agreement back over a lie as you're alleging, we'd hear about it in the NY Times.

I would assume after the agreement was first announced and NK released "all" their information that it would take some time for our analysts to sort through "everything." Once we couldn't match up what they were admitting to with everything we know they have, it's a simple matter of saying "And where's the rest... ?" And of course a simple matter for you to go pink in the face with conspiracy.

Congress has committee(s) briefed on this intelligence difference. If we were holding an international agreement back over a lie as you're alleging, we'd hear about it in the NY Times.

The issue is however that one cannot prove something that does not exist. Therefore it is up to us to point out the facility we believe they are leaving out, as there is no way they can prove something that does not exist, does not exist.

The burden of proof is with us in this situation.

The issue is however that one cannot prove something that does not exist. Therefore it is up to us to point out the facility we believe they are leaving out, as there is no way they can prove something that does not exist, does not exist.

The burden of proof is with us in this situation.

Would you mind sharing with us how you reach these conclusion, jedd? This is another example of you pointing out that our country is in the wrong because you know more than everyone else about the situation.

The burden of proof is with North Korea. They have to prove that they have been completely forthcoming with the information they agreed to provide. The U.S. saying they do not accept the information as being complete does not put any onus on the U.S. to prove anything, but keeps it on the North Korean government.

It's more than just facilities. It's methods, it's people, it's whatever assets and processes that NK has purchased, stolen, or grown on their own that they're not owning up to. If we said we know you have this or know how to do that or even in some cases you've done this, then we're giving up how we got that information as well. And for nothing. The only time we're going to give up an intelligence asset if there's value in it... and when you're discussing national security and intelligence methods/assets .. there has to be a huge benefit in handing it over. And for empty promises and lies that NK continues to give us, we're not going to do it.

Would you mind sharing with us how you reach these conclusion, jedd? This is another example of you pointing out that our country is in the wrong because you know more than everyone else about the situation.

The burden of proof is with North Korea. They have to prove that they have been completely forthcoming with the information they agreed to provide. The U.S. saying they do not accept the information as being complete does not put any onus on the U.S. to prove anything, but keeps it on the North Korean government.

I am sorry, but your response does not change my opinion. One cannot prove something that is non existent.

The Burden of proof is with the accuser.

That is why you are innocent until proven guilty in court, Because if you were guilty until proven innocent, you would have the difficult task of trying to prove that something didn't happen.

It's more than just facilities. It's methods, it's people, it's whatever assets and processes that NK has purchased, stolen, or grown on their own that they're not owning up to. If we said we know you have this or know how to do that or even in some cases you've done this, then we're giving up how we got that information as well. And for nothing. The only time we're going to give up an intelligence asset if there's value in it... and when you're discussing national security and intelligence methods/assets .. there has to be a huge benefit in handing it over. And for empty promises and lies that NK continues to give us, we're not going to do it.

Now you are assuming that our government has information that they are just not willing to bring up in detail in order to avoid divulging the methods in which they were Acquired.

The key word being assuming. You are correct in thinking that it would be wise to not divulge information you have in order to protect the methods of acquiring them, however we will agree to disagree on what knowledge our government actually has. After Iraq and every other government blunder and lie, I would be skeptical to believe the sky was blue if they told me it was.

That is why you are innocent until proven guilty in court, Because if you were guilty until proven innocent, you would have the difficult task of trying to prove that something didn't happen.

Not difficult... impossible.

Not difficult... impossible.

Well I guess you could prove that you where somewhere else with the right amount of luck and eyewitnesses... But aye, practically impossible.

North Korea has the burden of proving the extent of their nuclear program, and no other country has any burden of that. That was the agreement.

Allowing UN inspectors in to start validating what they have claimed as full disclosure would be a nice first step.

And that whole innocent until proven guilty was one of the more ridiculous comments so far today, seeing as how they have already admitted guilt in having the nuclear ability; we are simply wanting to know the complete details of it which they said they would give, and have not yet, to our satisfaction.


And, I am skeptical of any posts by Jedd regarding any topic that involves the U.S., seeing he has said he would not take their word that the sky is blue, because of past events. If he is not willing to accept a statement of U.S. as being true, why bother expending so much energy debating them? Make one post, saying the U.S. lies, and be done with it. Why post after post after post, saying basically the same thing. Nobody will change his opinion, and his admitted bias contributes nothing after the initial denial of any truth on one side of the debate; what is being gained by all the additional posts?

Well I wasn't arguing with Jedd to try and change his mind. It was a simple exercise in stearing the conversation to where he once again admitted how anti-American he is.

North Korea has the burden of proving the extent of their nuclear program, and no other country has any burden of that. That was the agreement.

North Korea's part of the deal is to release all their information on their nuclear program and to stop proliferation. Now the US is saying that they have not released all their information. The reality of the situation is that if we believe that NK is withholding anything, it is up to us to tell them what we know they are withholding and demand answers as to why.

Allowing UN inspectors in to start validating what they have claimed as full disclosure would be a nice first step.

SEOUL, South Korea (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/korea.html?nav=el) -- United Nations inspectors have verified that North Korea (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/korea.html?nav=el) has shut down its sole functioning nuclear reactor, the chief of the watchdog agency said Monday, confirming the isolated country had taken its first step in nearly five years to halt production of atomic weapons.

"Our inspectors are there. They verified the shutting down of the reactor yesterday," said Mohamed ElBaradei, chief of the U.N. International Atomic Energy Agency.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/15/AR2007071500170.html

And that whole innocent until proven guilty was one of the more ridiculous comments so far today, seeing as how they have already admitted guilt in having the nuclear ability; we are simply wanting to know the complete details of it which they said they would give, and have not yet, to our satisfaction.

I cannot reword my post for someone who does not want to understand, therefore we will leave it at that.

And, I am skeptical of any posts by Jedd regarding any topic that involves the U.S., seeing he has said he would not take their word that the sky is blue, because of past events. If he is not willing to accept a statement of U.S. as being true, why bother expending so much energy debating them? Make one post, saying the U.S. lies, and be done with it. Why post after post after post, saying basically the same thing. Nobody will change his opinion, and his admitted bias contributes nothing after the initial denial of any truth on one side of the debate; what is being gained by all the additional posts?

Once again you take a thread and further your personal vendetta against me and whatever I post. Either stay on topic or just Shut up.

Well I wasn't arguing with Jedd to try and change his mind. It was a simple exercise in stearing the conversation to where he once again admitted how anti-American he is.

Some of the most patriotic Americans do not trust their government, furthermore Some of the most vile Americans call anyone who disagrees with the government "Anti American"

North Korea's part of the deal is to release all their information on their nuclear program and to stop proliferation. Now the US is saying that they have not released all their information. The reality of the situation is that if we believe that NK is withholding anything, it is up to us to tell them what we know they are withholding and demand answers as to why.











Once again you take a thread and further your personal vendetta against me and whatever I post. Either stay on topic or just Shut up.


And you know this has not been done how? This is exactly what I am pointing out here, that you are talking about stuff you really know nothing more than the rest of us about. None of us has any clue what the discussions behind closed doors between our envoys and their government reps have entailed; we can only surmise. You go beyond that though, and start saying "the facts are this" and "I know for a fact" etc etc etc.

I am not carrying any vendetta against you Jedd, because, as I have said before, you are not that significant. I am merely wondering why you expend so much energy saying the same thing over and over and over. You don't trust the U.S. We get that. Why do you continue posting that same thing over and over and over?

And as for being on topic, I have not strayed. It is the burden of NK to satisfy the agreement they signed on to, and you are saying it is not but instead is the U.S. who you seem to have such a vendetta against. You are wrong, and I say that because you have no special knowledge that is not available to anyone else; you have only your bias which affects the way you read your news, and form your opinions.

If I am wrong, please, prove so. Share your sensitive information regarding the documents provided and the challenges to them our government has put forth, and why our government is saying they need more, and what that is, and why North Korea is balking at that, and whether the information being asked for is indeed valid. Come on, jedd. You like to play the know it all, using the word "facts" all the time, so share them, or take your own suggestion and shut up.

I did not state anything of an acrimonious nature in my previous posts here about you and the topic; I only asked why you kept at it over and over. You told me to shut up, rather than answer why you were willing to expend so much energy saying the same thing over and over and over, so I hope there is no whining about me returning the suggestion, knowing you are unable to provide any factual information about secret negotiations between two nations.

And you know this has not been done how? This is exactly what I am pointing out here, that you are talking about stuff you really know nothing more than the rest of us about. None of us has any clue what the discussions behind closed doors between our envoys and their government reps have entailed; we can only surmise. You go beyond that though, and start saying "the facts are this" and "I know for a fact" etc etc etc.

Anything we post here is of course based on the information available. If that information were not complete, then I cannot be blamed for my deduction Byl.

I am not carrying any vendetta against you Jedd, because, as I have said before, you are not that significant. I am merely wondering why you expend so much energy saying the same thing over and over and over. You don't trust the U.S. We get that. Why do you continue posting that same thing over and over and over?

This is a thread that I posted an opinion in. You clearly care and I am clearly significant to you if you always feel the need to interject each thread to give your 2 cents on me and my beliefs.

And as for being on topic, I have not strayed. It is the burden of NK to satisfy the agreement they signed on to, and you are saying it is not but instead is the U.S. who you seem to have such a vendetta against. You are wrong, and I say that because you have no special knowledge that is not available to anyone else; you have only your bias which affects the way you read your news, and form your opinions.

Once again you do not understand and seem not to want to... It is near impossible to prove something does not exist. The burden of proof is on the accuser. The UN cannot force someone to declare something they do not have, and if they draw a conclusion that someone is non compliant because they will not declare something that they say doesn't exist, then there is an unfair president in said resolution, unless evidence is put forth proving the incorrect declaration.

If I am wrong, please, prove so. Share your sensitive information regarding the documents provided and the challenges to them our government has put forth, and why our government is saying they need more, and what that is, and why North Korea is balking at that, and whether the information being asked for is indeed valid. Come on, jedd. You like to play the know it all, using the word "facts" all the time, so share them, or take your own suggestion and shut up.

I nowhere in this thread claimed to have knowledge other then what has been laid forth in the various news sources. North Korea has said that they are not complying any further because we have not held up our end of the bargain. Our government claims that North Korea has not declared everything fully. I challenge you to prove to me that our government has a correct claim based on the information provided by various news sources.

I did not state anything of an acrimonious nature in my previous posts here about you and the topic; I only asked why you kept at it over and over. You told me to shut up, rather than answer why you were willing to expend so much energy saying the same thing over and over and over, so I hope there is no whining about me returning the suggestion, knowing you are unable to provide any factual information about secret negotiations between two nations.

You have put forth much of your time and energy to argue the legitimacy of the thought process behind my arguments more then you have ever put forth to actually discuss my arguments themselves. You have shown exactly the wrong way to debate.

Just glancing through, Jedd is essentially correct as far as burden of proof is concerned. Let us say that we believe that NK has hidden WMDs somewhere but that this is actually untrue (hey, it could happen!). It would be up to the US or whoever to provide evidence that these WMDs exist (perhaps we discover valid inventory information), not for NK to prove that they do not exist. How could they?

I am not stepping on anyones toes here guys but yea...the US needs to say we know your holding "this" information and we know you have "x" process still inline. Now prove you don't. Which I believe they haven't. Throw North Korea a fricken bone to let them know you actually care they are making some sort of movement towards a better country. After the Iraq WMD debacle, I completely think the US is in the wrong saying anything with out hardcore facts.

Saddam had complete control over his destiny.

Maybe someone can pull Kim Jong out of a shithole someday too.

First off if you think fulldiscloser is something any nation will engage in and that the process is not fraught with lies, deceptions, and only admitting to what you know the other side knows in absolution. you are all way to fawking niave.
Second. have any you of you thought to consider that of course NK is dragging thier feet in anticipation of the Jan./09 changing of the gaurd in the US. and the possibility of an administration that will negotiate from a standpoint that doesnt view diplomacy as a four letter word.

You have put forth much of your time and energy to argue the legitimacy of the thought process behind my arguments more then you have ever put forth to actually discuss my arguments themselves. You have shown exactly the wrong way to debate.

Thanks jedd. Once again, as usual, you have not shown anything of value to the debate, but instead have simply challenged others to prove you wrong in your prejudiced opinions.

I have at least offered the option of NK allowing UN inspectors in to verify the data they have disclosed. What have you offered? Seriously? Have you offered anything that could be considered even close to an option of how this could move forward? No, you simply wave your "U.S. is bad" flag and act holier than thou, as you usually do when challenged.

And you are going to pretend to lecture anyone on debating. You are a joke. And yes, to anyone that wants to dump on me, that was indeed an insult, and sincerely meant.

Thanks jedd. Once again, as usual, you have not shown anything of value to the debate, but instead have simply challenged others to prove you wrong in your prejudiced opinions.

I have at least offered the option of NK allowing UN inspectors in to verify the data they have disclosed. What have you offered? Seriously? Have you offered anything that could be considered even close to an option of how this could move forward? No, you simply wave your "U.S. is bad" flag and act holier than thou, as you usually do when challenged.

And you are going to pretend to lecture anyone on debating. You are a joke. And yes, to anyone that wants to dump on me, that was indeed an insult, and sincerely meant.

I not only proved you were wrong about the UN inspectors not being allowed in North Korea, I explained to you why the burden of proof remains with the accusers and not with the Defendant in such a case.

You have done nothing but embarrass yourself in this thread, as you cannot grasp simple concepts that are in most cases common sense. Once again....

"Anger and insults are the common replacement for those with no proof of what they desperately want to believe."-Freud

I not only proved you were wrong about the UN inspectors not being allowed in North Korea



Guess I must have missed this. Where did you prove I was wrong suggesting this option?


BTW, your arguments will look more intelligible when you can differentiate between precedent and president. Food for thought.

Guess I must have missed this. Where did you prove I was wrong suggesting this option?
Scroll up - post 29
I showed you that the UN inspectors were already in NK and reported that NK was complying.

BTW, your arguments will look more intelligible when you can differentiate between precedent and president. Food for thought.

Ooooh spell patrol!

Hehe, so like you. I suggest that the UN be allowed to verify data, and you say you have "proved me wrong" because the UN inspectors verified the shutdown of a reactor. Apples are red, and sometimes green, and oranges are, well, orange. Precedents are determinations that are used to determine future decisions, whereas presidents are leaders of companies and nations

Verifying a reactor being shutdown and verifying data related to a nuclear program are also two different concepts.

Hehe, so like you. I suggest that the UN be allowed to verify data, and you say you have "proved me wrong" because the UN inspectors verified the shutdown of a reactor. Apples are red, and sometimes green, and oranges are, well, orange. Precedents are determinations that are used to determine future decisions, whereas presidents are leaders of companies and nations

Verifying a reactor being shutdown and verifying data related to a nuclear program are also two different concepts.


I never said you were wrong for wanting inspectors to inspect. You were wrong for saying UN Inspectors were not in the country. The shutdown of a reactor shows compliance. What has North Korea recieved for this shutdown? Nothing it was promised.

You also have an impossible time understanding basic common sense. I am done arguing with you about this. Lets give some time for some other people to weigh in the subject.

You were wrong for saying UN Inspectors were not in the country.



Please quote this statement you are claiming I made.

Once again, your bias and prejudiced way of thinking has led you to make a statement without basis. If you could somehow learn to read what is written and not what you want to think someone is saying, your contributions to the discussion could actually further the debate rather than send it off on tangents.

Please quote this statement you are claiming I made.

Once again, your bias and prejudiced way of thinking has led you to make a statement without basis. If you could somehow learn to read what is written and not what you want to think someone is saying, your contributions to the discussion could actually further the debate rather than send it off on tangents.

I have at least offered the option of NK allowing UN inspectors in to verify the data they have disclosed.

Allowing UN inspectors in to start validating what they have claimed as full disclosure would be a nice first step.

It would look like UN Inspectors were in North Korea to Verify the shutting down of a reactor. Or is there a different kind of data you meant other then the responsibilities of North Korea under the agreement?

I am sure the UN inspectors are just taking a vacation though and are not verifying anything... right Byl?

It would look like UN Inspectors were in North Korea to Verify the shutting down of a reactor. Or is there a different kind of data you meant other then the responsibilities of North Korea under the agreement?



Are you seriously this dense?

My suggestion was allowing UN inspectors to verify the data NK presented. You are talking about a reactor being shutdown. Have you even been reading this thread, or just coming up with more stuff to toss out to argue about?

Are you really incapable of reading the English language? Like I said, jedd, you are indeed a joke.

The only feature missing in vBulletin is a way to ignore any thread where Byl and Jedd pointlessly argue for pages. :(

Are you seriously this dense?

I have been asking myself this question about you for this whole conversation


My suggestion was allowing UN inspectors to verify the data NK presented. You are talking about a reactor being shutdown. Have you even been reading this thread, or just coming up with more stuff to toss out to argue about?

Are you really incapable of reading the English language? Like I said, jedd, you are indeed a joke.

I would like to know what you think the UN is doing in North Korea other then the above. Sittin by the beach with a couple of Corona's?

I would like to know what you think the UN is doing in North Korea other then the above. Sittin by the beach with a couple of Corona's?Would not surprise me.

Please try to keep the discussion substantive, gentlemen. =)