It seems there is a push to socialize health care in the US.

The socialist ARo folks must be lobbying our doctors!

www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/08/12/national.insurance.ap/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/08/12/national.insurance.ap/index.html)

slow day at work Esbat?

I'm guessing the doctors want to avoid insurance hassle and get more money to boot.

Very slow, after the Blaster virus stuff yesterday (which we avoided) we are keeping a low profile today.

I just used Ytrok's name in the thread since I know he approves strongly of socialized medicine.

I'm guessing the doctors want to avoid insurance hassle and get more money to boot.

I'm guessing that that is what they are thinking- or are at least willing to settle for reasonable malpractice insurance costs.


Anyhow, 8000 doctors are frankly just a drop in the bucket.

And there's what I think one of the real issues is - I think the right place to start is some sort of regulation on malpractice suits or malpractice insurance. Figure out how to control that and you'll help bring down medical costs.

Doesn't necessarily affect prescription drug costs, but it's a place to start.

I just used Ytrok's name in the thread since I know he approves strongly of socialized medicine.

Doesn't everyone?
Well judging by some of the reactions I guess not.

I believe every human being has a right to :
- food
- shelter
- healthcare.

Maybe some people call that socialism or some even communism, I just call that humanism.

And yes I feel the government has a role in providing this.
I'm not saying they should provide it to all, just to the people that for some reason (beyond their control) are not able to get it for themselves.
If the reason for not having waiting lists, simply is that people can't afford to get medical help, there is something seriously wrong with the system IMO. (I'm not saying I want a waiting list).
So I feel a mix of "social" health-care and "private" health-care is the solution.

I'm guessing the doctors want to avoid insurance hassle and get more money to boot.

Well a "socialized" health-care would mean a pay cut to doctors, so I don't think that money is the reason.
Maybe if the "insurance" is such an hassle that it prevents doctors from doing good medicine it's not by definition a bad thing to get rid of it. Then again it has pro's and con's.

And there's what I think one of the real issues is - I think the right place to start is some sort of regulation on malpractice suits or malpractice insurance

Solution is simple:
Make a set of rules to judge the "malpractice" by and
set a max on the pay-out of the malpractice suits and let it be judged by an "arbiter" rather then a court of law.

Can we add Affordable Car insurance to that list?

Well a "socialized" health-care would mean a pay cut to doctors,

I'm not sure why you assume that. More people getting health care means more revenue. Streamlined payment processes means that doctors/hospitals write off fewer unpaid bills each year and have lower overhead costs. I'm guessing these doctors aren't going to sign up to support a program with that limits the payout for certain types of services.

And yes I feel the government has a role in providing this

Do parents actually teach kids that the government is capable of producing wealth?

Can we add Affordable Car insurance to that list?

Too many off road "excursions"? ;)

I feel sex is also a human right, so we should add prostitutes for everyone on that list, as well as high speed internet, and clothing, so the government should fund a weekly trip to the GAP for me, as well as popcorn and steaks.

I'm not sure why you assume that. More people getting health care means more revenue. Streamlined payment processes means that doctors/hospitals write off fewer unpaid bills each year and have lower overhead costs. I'm guessing these doctors aren't going to sign up to support a program with that limits the payout for certain types of services.

I assume this based on the fact that public servants are not paid the same amount as their "commercial" counterparts.
The thing with "socialized" medicine is that it has to be low cost. Therefor a doctor can simply not ask the same amount of money as he would from "commercial" medicine.
Also the amount he would received would be "decided" by the government and not by supply and demand. Because there is an incredible high demand for health the price is high. A social system gives the government tools to control the pay.
Therefor I assume that the pay for doctors will drop.
If you compare the pay of doctors in the USA to the UK (complete system of social health), you will see that the US doctors earn considerably more.

The introduction of a form off "social" healthcare is not a simple issue it has many pro's and con's you will have to take great care in implementing it.

Do parents actually teach kids that the government is capable of producing wealth?

Yes
At the very least they control it, manege it and distribute it.
The government sets the rules and creates the "business" atmosphere.
Therefor you can say that it produces a save environment, wherein business can flourish.
In that respect you can say that they produce wealth.

Are you kidding?

Saying I took $300 of your money and spent it how I want doesnt mean I generated wealth it means I took it from you.

The government can't save us money by paying for things since we pay them the money they would use. Its just spreading the payments for 1 persons medical to others.

That philosophy failed to work because as more people are subsidized by the state the heavier the burdon on the "Producers" thus the more of them fall under the subsidy.

Eventually all are under the subsidy and no one is producing anything. Welcome to Russia late 80s.

The thing with "socialized" medicine is that it has to be low cost.

No, it doesn't. As you pointed out, the government determines what something is worth in the system you're talking about. Until you know what prices the government is going to set, you cannot make any decision on whether or not socialized medicine will save money in any way, form, or fashion.

I.T. people in the U.K. on average make less than I do within my company. Is that because the government controls I.T. in the U.K.? Or could there be lots of factors influencing salary like demand, strength of economy, cost of malpractice insurance, etc.?

No, it doesn't. As you pointed out, the government determines what something is worth in the system you're talking about.

good point, let me rephrase :
I meant to say : The thing with successful"socialized" medicine is that it has to be low cost.

I.T. people in the U.K. on average make less than I do within my company. Is that because the government controls I.T. in the U.K.? Or could there be lots of factors influencing salary like demand, strength of economy, cost of malpractice insurance, etc.?

I don't think comparing IT and health care is a fair comparison.
offcourse there are market influences that determine the salary.
However IT is not controlled by the government nor should it be IMO. It is not a primary live need like food and shelter.
Health-care is.

Dutch IT is comparable to US IT (in salary, etc).
Also dutch economy is stronger then US economy and closely linked to the US economy (behind UK and Japan third largest investor in the US).
That having said, seeing they are roughly the same, we can then compare dutch health-care to us health-care.

That having said we can then compare the Netherlands health-care (also government controlled to a certain level) to the US health-care, using the "IT" theory.
Following the "IT" theory, that would make that the salary of the doctors in The Netherlands should be higher then in the USA.
It is however significantly lower.
This is due to government intervention.

I simply compared non government controlled health-care to government controlled health-care. As a general example.
I still believe that government controlled health-care would result in lower doctors salary, compared to non government controlled health-care.

I believe that you cannot really compare different business groups. As you stated all types of government controlled instruments are in place, which makes it allmost impossible to compare 2 different countries.
But that does not change the fact that I still believe that government controlled salary's would mean lower salary's on avarage (in health-care).

First.. Its driving me crazy.. because you use the word so damn much... its thereforE..
I know everyone makes spelling mistakes... but you use it 3 times a post and its in your sig... consider this a PSA.

Second..
Why try to "fix" something thats not broken? The US has the best health care system in the world..
Turn on the news.. everyday somebody is flying into the US for some medical procedure or another..
Virtually every medical/Surgical breakthrough in the last 40 years has happened in the US..
Why?
Market Economy. It PAYS WELL to be a talented doctor in the US.. It PAYS WELL to discover some revolutionary medical procedure..
Look at the advancement in something as simple as Knee Surgery..

Doctors are professionals.. they train very hard and work for years for almost peanuts until they are ready to start making money..
First you better have gotten REALLY good grades most of your life.
Then
You think getting into a good medical school is easy? HAHA...
My best friend went to Yale.. graduated with a 3.8 in pre-med.. did pretty well on his MCATs.. and got waiting listed at UCONN, Yale and Columbia Med School..
Then you go for 4 years of REALLY intense study..
THen you get to be a Intern at a hospital.. say hello to 24 hour shift.. perma on call and really really crappy pay
Then you get the honor of being a Resident.. same shit.. more responsibility..
Then you get to be Fellow... ok... finally starting to see some light..

Go into your local hospital.. what do you see? Doctors from all over the world..
Why are they here? Why do American Hospitals have the pick of the best doctors in the world?
Places like Boston Childrens Hospital (http://web1.tch.harvard.edu/) wouldnt be able to exist in a socialized medicine system..
Leave the doctors alone....

If you want to improve the medical system in the US.. you need to do 2 things..
1. Malpractice reform.. every day we 100s of Doctors are getting out of the OBGYN practices.. giving up their licenses.. why? they cant afford the insurance..
Doctors are doctors for one overwhelming reason(for the most part).. They want to help people... If your a doctor.. you wanted to be one since you were a teenager.. and you dedicated yourself.. why? You wanted to make people better. There are lots of professions where a person can make more money easier than being a doctor..

2. Drug Companies.. these are out of control IMO.. they need to be reigned in somewhat.. reducing the costs of Drugs would do MUCH more to make health care more affordable... The exorberant costs of drugs are a slow steady drain on the resources of the health care system and insurance companies..
Drugs that cost less would allow insurance companies to lower rates.. letting more people afford health care..

Dutch ecnomic growth: Nope. Dude, it's Europe.

www.cbs.nl/en/figures/key...stable.asp (http://www.cbs.nl/en/figures/keyfigures/keyfigurestable/keyfigurestable.asp)

As a comparision, US economic growth in the 2nd quarter was 2.4%.

I'm not saying socialized medicine MIGHT not lower costs. It COULD lower point of sale costs to the consumer. However, what would point of sale costs PLUS additional taxes cost? The thing's not gonna run itself. There's gonna have to be a department to run it, and we're gonna have to pay for that.

I'm a firm believer that a government cannot run something cheaper than capitalism. Anything saying our government can run medical care cheaper is simply speculation.

L2, you present a valid point. However, you have to take into account that this cream of the crop makes up a rather small, specialized percentage of the doctors. Yes, breakthroughs in medical technology and medicines are valuable. But there are other factors to consider.

Doctors are doctors for one overwhelming reason(for the most part).. They want to help people... If your a doctor.. you wanted to be one since you were a teenager.. and you dedicated yourself.. why? You wanted to make people better. There are lots of professions where a person can make more money easier than being a doctor..

Not necessarily true. Some are. Many are not. I've encountered quite a few here who were either incompetent or did not give a rat's ass about the patient.

While there may be easier, more lucrative jobs, pretty much all of them offer situational (and thus generally inconsistent) profit. There are doctors who take up the profession for the money here, whether you believe it or not.

Suppose that our medical system adapts into a purely socialist one. The people who WANT to be doctors will still be doctors (the pay is decent, not great), and nobody else will enter the profession. The downside is that the research will slow down, as the funding would probably be a bit worse and fewer top-notch doctors will come from abroad. But the lowest common denominator will be pretty damned competent and caring.

Unless you have the power of clairvoyance and foresee something along the lines of a cure for cancer in the immediate future, the socialist system is the better alternative.

If you want socialized medicine so badly, move to Canada.

Cristo, it is my right (and duty, for that matter) as an American citizen to pursue reform for the better as I perceive it. I'm no starry-eyed random-cause activist - a decade of pain and near poverty cull that tendency out of a person. I speak from personal experience here.

Please shut the hell up if you've no constructive argument.

Socialized medicine = very very bad idea.

A bunch of uncles and cousins live in Canada where it is socialized medicine, they tell me it takes a long ass time to get a doctor appointment because so very few doctors stick around because of the low pay, and the ones that do stick around are the bottom end ones. All the top end doctors moved to the US since that is where they can make the cash.

Everyone is just gonna end up paying a shit load in taxes for shitty government run med care with unmotivated doctors because if the US socializes medicine the top end doctors are gonna miagrate else where, cause after busting their balls in school im sure they want to make enough money to compensate for the work they put in.

The government shouldn't subsidize shit....if people want things they should work for them instead of riding on the shoulders of others. If you give someone the option to either work for food or starve im sure they will get their lazy ass up and earn some money to buy food in a heart beat.

2. Drug Companies.. these are out of control IMO.. they need to be reigned in somewhat.. reducing the costs of Drugs would do MUCH more to make health care more affordable... The exorberant costs of drugs are a slow steady drain on the resources of the health care system and insurance companies..
Drugs that cost less would allow insurance companies to lower rates.. letting more people afford health care..

I doubt that pharmaceuticals will drop in price. I did some reading on genomics and how it will affect the pharmaceutical industry. The scientific advancements in genetics will open up many new doors for medicine; however, the research fees will be outrageously high.

It is also thought that in the semi-near future these pharmaceutical advancements will make it so people spend nearly as much money on prevention via drugs as they do on treatment via physicians.

The source was "As the Future Catches You" by Juan Enriquez. It's an amazing read that gives a lot of insight into how the future will be shaped by the study of the human genome and the scientific advancements which will come due to it.

Why try to "fix" something thats not broken?

Not trying to fix anything. It's not my problem.

The US has the best health care system in the world..

If you are lucky to be able to effort it.
No cash No health-care.

Places like Boston Childrens Hospital wouldn't be able to exist in a socialized medicine system..

Not true at all. There is a similar hospital in Amsterdam, that does exactly the same thing and is funded by a so called "social" medicine system.

Market Economy. It PAYS WELL to be a talented doctor in the US.. It PAYS WELL to discover some revolutionary medical procedure..

Very true, people are willing to pay practically anything for a good health. So if you discover something new you can ask whatever you want.
If they are not able to pay well that's their problem then, then they stay sick or die.

I'm not saying socialized medicine MIGHT not lower costs.

Wow hold on here I never said it would lower cost. All I said was that the average doctors salary's would be lower.

I'm a firm believer that a government cannot run something cheaper than capitalism.

So am I.
I'm a strong supporter of privatizing the public health system to a certain extend. It has big cost advantages.
However in doing so you should not forget the less privileged in society.
Everyone has a right to medical care, not just the people with money.
So costs are not the main discussion here IMO. It's availability.
And yes making health-care available to everyone will raise the overall costs.
The question is is a society willing to help their sick and disabled?
And how much are they willing to spend on them?

The government shouldn't subsidize shit....if people want things they should work for them instead of riding on the shoulders of others.

And if they can't work because they are sick they die, perfectly fair.

If you are lucky to be able to effort it.
No cash No health-care.

This needs to be fleshed out; it's not nearly true, and I think you probably know that. You'd also need to draw a line somewhere between critical care and, I don't know, non-critical care.

Willgatus, it is -my- right as an American citizen to oppose bad ideas as I see them, and inform you that in my opinion your idea of reform is naive and stupid.

Now you can shut your trap about my opinions, because unlike your proposed ideas, my right to voice my views is not open for debate.

Cristo, we can let this degenerate into a generic bout of flames going back and forth if you like. Yes, we both have the right to voice our opinions. Yes, we both have the right to tell each other to fuck off.

But that is beside the point. To supplement my initial post, I'll explain the contrasts I have encountered. Back in Moscow, most medical services (dental inclusive) were of consistently good quality. Yes, the technology was a hell of a lot worse, but the doctors did not half-ass things. For example: I got a couple of fillings there in '90 or so, sans novocaine; however, those fillings still remain in there, whereas quite a few of the ones I got here several years later did not last a year.

Here, the only lower-end general branches of medicine that are consistently effective are acupuncture and homeopathy. They are hardly different from their counterparts elsewhere in the world.

I don't doubt that the level of complex surgery was/is worse over there due to the shortage of research funding. Maybe the overall quality of medical services is drastically worse outside Moscow - I have no way of knowing firsthand. But you cannot dismiss a proven idea on the sole basis that it's evil leftist Commie voodoo. Nor would it be a great idea to embrace the socialist medical system to the smallest detail. The key is in retaining an open mind to adapt and strike a balance, something that you, Cristo, fail to do.

But that is beside the point


Hardly, when you told me to shut up and not voice my opinion, kkthx.

Our system is fine, it works fine, just because you came across a bad dentist does in no way disprove that. I have had extensive first hand experience with the medical system in this country, and it was in no way inferior...nor was it overly expensive to me personally(thx, insurance). I have also seen the other side, as a relative with no insurance got cheap/free healthcare while they battled lung cancer.

You have a lot of convincing to do to prove to me it is overly hard to get health insurance, or free/cheap healthcare in this country.

First, I told you to elaborate on your thoughts/lack thereof or shut up. I don't normally resort to rudeness, but your one-liner back there pissed me off. You (finally) did the former. Thanks.

Second,

just because you came across a bad dentist does in no way disprove that

Of course not. I stuck a single example in there, not a direct account of my experiences with doctors over the years. That specific example is by no means unique, though.

I feel that current circumstances warrant change in the medical system; you do not. Since we both base our beliefs on personal experience and not hard data, may as well give up trying to convince one another. If only Wayfarer was here to dig up statistics... :p

Well Will gives us yet another excellent example of why the US system is the best in the world..

Freedom of choice...
I am by no means rich.. pretty middle class.. but

providerdirectory.anthem....p?state=CT (http://providerdirectory.anthem.com/home.asp?state=CT)

as you can see... I have literally HUNDREDS of doctors to chose from.
They also send me a book... its 300+ pages and phonebook sized full of all the doctors I can choose..

It helps to ask around.. to go by referals and to do your homework on everything.
The best Doctors in every single field have busy practices.. and they dont charge more than anyone else.. the shitty doctors have slow practices...

If you went to a shitty doctor.. its your own fault for not doing your homework..
Take some personal responsibity and find out whats up, whos good, whos not.

This needs to be fleshed out; it's not nearly true, and I think you probably know that. You'd also need to draw a line somewhere between critical care and, I don't know, non-critical care.

Yup I know that if someone has a life threatening problem and enters the ER he is not asked for his insurance policy first.
They will save his life.
However if he needs further care or help (say medicine) the first thing they ask is for the insurance policy.
Does this person still get the meds he needs?
And if so what does he get, just enough to live or enough to have a good live?


Well Will gives us yet another excellent example of why the US system is the best in the world..

Freedom of choice...


What makes you think you don't have a choice in a "social" system?
I recently had a problem and had a choice of more then 40 specialists. I choose one, but he was not able to help me, so he referred me to another specialist.
How many "commercial" doctors would do that and admit that they don't know the answer to you're problem?
Sure some will do, but I can guarantee you not that many.

If you're argumenting that freedom of choice makes a system the best in the world, then you would have to agree that ALL country's that have freedom of choice have the best system in the world.
But somehow I feel that you're argument is more like "it's American, we have freedom of choice, we have the best system. God bless America!"

Really I have nothing against America, I just don't believe there is such a thing as a perfect Country or a perfect system.

A socialist system is less perfect than a capitalist one.

How many "commercial" doctors would do that and admit that they don't know the answer to you're problem?

Most doctors do this as they will still charge you for your appointment in which they referred you to a different doctor, hehe.

There are good doctors out there.

My father is a dentist. He offers 24 hour service. You page him at 2 in the morning with a tooth ache, he wakes his ass up and will call in a perscription for you. He is called to the emergency room all the time in the middle of the night. Once a month he offers free dental service for those of us who are unable to afford expensive procedures. He was the president of the chamber of commerce for our city for years. He visits the elementary schools every year to talk about tooth care. About the referral thing, I suppose it's different with dentistry since you should know to begin with if you need a cosmetic dentist, an oral surgeon, an orthodonist, or whatever, but if you come in and he just refers you elsewhere, it's free.

He would say his success is due to Jesus and yada yada (He's very religious), but it's pretty obvious to me why he is. He hardly even advertises, he just lets himself be known throughout the community. I could never attempt to do the things he does (2 am and I have to look in someone's fucked up mouth? Come on...), but I respect it. There's a reason he owns two medical buildings, instead of working out of a strip mall.

I'm not trying to start 'My dad is better than yours' crap, so please don't take it like that. With little research you can separate the good doctors from the bad.

There is a doctor up where my parents live that is similar to your dad Wein. You can wake him at any god awful hour and he wll have you come into the medical center and do what he can for you or let you know what to do. When I had asthma,there was many a time that I woke him up in the wee hours to go get an adreniline shot. He was always in good spirits when he treated me,and since we didnt have insurance he never charged me for the shots($75 a pop).
There is good doctors out there.The prblem is insurance companies and HMO's.

Most doctors do this as they will still charge you for your appointment in which they referred you to a different doctor, hehe.

True, they probably will refer you.
But charge you non the less.
Which is logical cause you used their time and time=money.
Easy money really, all you have to do is refer to someone else.
But what if the next doctor is not able to help you and refers you to the next.
The bills keep stacking and you really have not received any help.
In theory this can go on till you're not able to effort any more doctors appointments.
Only a real problem if you're not able to effort more then 2 doctors appointments.

There are allot of good doctors that are not in the profession for the money, or believe that they make sufficient money.
These will help you regardless of you're financial situation.
But this is due to the good nature of the doctor and has nothing to do with the system.

A socialist system is less perfect than a capitalist one.

/applaud
/cheer

I admire you're constructive criticism.
Really you're statement is incredibly well argumented and a real contribution to this discussion.
Just a shame you're not willing to share you're arguments with us all.
Especially for us poor Europeans that live in a country that has a "social" health-care system. We might be able to learn something from you're arguments.

www.iht.com/articles/106055.html (http://www.iht.com/articles/106055.html)

About british "bread lines" for dentists.