Swift Boat Veterans and Kerry

Crist0 · 08-05-2004

I initially tacked this on to the end of the flipper thread...but it really deserves its own, especially after going through the site for awhile. There is a ton of information there, ranging from explanations about how fitness reports are interpreted to TV interviews from 1971 where Kerry debated his statements before Congress.

In any case, what initially brought this up is that the actual doctor who treated Kerry for the "wound" he got his first purple heart for has come forward to say that Kerry is lying about it.

Quote:

I have a very clear memory of an incident which occurred while I was the Medical Officer at Naval Support Facility, Cam Ranh Bay. John Kerry was a (jg), the OinC or skipper of a Swift boat, newly arrived in Vietnam. On the night of December 2, he was on patrol north of Cam Ranh, up near Nha Trang area. The next day he came to sick bay, the medical facility, for treatment of a wound that had occurred that night.

The story he told was different from what his crewmen had to say about that night. According to Kerry, they had been engaged in a fire fight, receiving small arms fire from on shore. He said that his injury resulted from this enemy action.

Some of his crew confided that they did not receive any fire from shore, but that Kerry had fired a mortar round at close range to some rocks on shore. The crewman thought that the injury was caused by a fragment ricocheting from that mortar round when it struck the rocks.

That seemed to fit the injury which I treated.

What I saw was a small piece of metal sticking very superficially in the skin of Kerry's arm. The metal fragment measured about 1 cm. in length and was about 2 or 3 mm in diameter. It certainly did not look like a round from a rifle.

I simply removed the piece of metal by lifting it out of the skin with forceps. I doubt that it penetrated more than 3 or 4 mm. It did not require probing to find it, did not require any anesthesia to remove it, and did not require any sutures to close the wound.

The wound was covered with a bandaid. Not [sic] other injuries were reported and I do not recall that there was any reported damage to the boat.

This is important because in order to receive a purple heart you have to have documented medical treatment(which is why he went to see the doctor over something a bandaid would cover), and the injury has to be from an outside force or agent. In other words if Kerry's splinter is a result of his own action he didn't qualify for a purple heart, regardless of the actual seriousness of his "wound".

Also, the actual people who served with him(in case you didn't know, most of his "band of brothers" did not actually serve with him on his swiftboat) have come forward to speak out too. Among other things the gunnery mate from his swift boat says he lied to get his bronze star.

Now Kerry, if he is in the right, could absolutely take legal action for slander and libel...again, if he is right.

He isn't though...now you have to wonder...why isn't he?

http://www.swiftvets.com/anyquestions.wmv

http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php

Here is a great quote:

Quote:

So far as we are able to determine, Kerry was the only Swift sailor ever to leave Vietnam without completing the standard one-year tour of duty, other than those who were seriously wounded or killed.

More great quotes from these guys, this is from one of his commanding officers:

Quote:

Kerry would be described as devious, self-absorbing, manipulative, disdain for authority, disruptive, but the most common phrase that you'd hear is 'requires constant supervision.'

A member of his crew:

Quote:

My name is Steve Gardner. I served in 1966 and 1967 on my first tour of duty in Vietnam on Swift boats, and I did my second tour in '68 and '69, involved with John Kerry in the last 2 1/2 months of my tour. The John Kerry that I know is not the John Kerry that everybody else is portraying. I served alongside him and behind him, five feet away from him in a gun tub, and watched as he made indecisive moves with our boat, put our boats in jeopardy, put our crews in jeopardy... if a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?

Incidently the group was formed this year in response to the release of his book, and is not affiliated with any political party.

It counts as members the entire chain of command above him in Vietnam as well as people from his swift boat that served with him.

Lleauric · 08-05-2004

Quote:

Incidently the group was formed this year in response to the release of his book, and is not affiliated with any political party.

If these arent political... why is the site a 527?
These are about as non political as Move-On.org

Ailwon · 08-05-2004

So we have to pick between (to steal from Louis Black) crappy and crappy for president...tell me something I don't know

Also from Black:

Election day - the one day you can count on feeling completely ineffectual more than any other.

The one good thing....you can be having the worst day ever and still be feel better knowing "at least it's not election day:.

Thormir · 08-05-2004

And then we have other quotes from those who served under him that are more supportive:

Quote:

"In 1969, I was Sen. Kerry's gun mate atop of the Swift boat in Vietnam. And I just wanted to let everyone know that, contrary to all the rumors that you might hear from the other side, Sen. Kerry's blood is red, not blue. I know, I've seen it.

Quote:

"If it weren't for Sen. John Kerry, on the 28th of February 1969, the day he won the Silver Star . . . you and I would not be having this conversation. My name would be on a long, black wall in Washington, D.C. I saw this man save my life." --Fred Short

Quote:

"I can still see him now, standing in the doorway of the pilothouse, firing his M-16, shouting orders through the smoke and chaos . . . Even wounded, or confronting sights no man should ever have to see, he never lost his cool.

Quote:

I had to sit on my hands [after a firefight], I was shaking so hard . . . He went to every man on that boat and put his arm around them and asked them how they're doing. I've never had an officer do that before or since. That's the mettle of the man, John Kerry." --David Alston

Quote:

"What I saw back then [in Vietnam] was a guy with genuine caring and leadership ability who was aggressive when he had to be. What I see now is a guy who's not afraid to tackle tough issues. And he knows what the consequences are of putting people's kids in harm's way." --James Wasser

From commanders:

Quote:

"I don't like what he said after the war," said Adrian Lonsdale, who commanded Kerry for three months in 1969. "But he was a good naval officer."

Quote:

"I don't know what conclusions you can draw about someone's ability to lead from their combat experience, but John's service was commendable," said James J. Galvin, a former Swift boat officer . . . "He played by the same rules we all did."

Of course, 35 years have passed and we're now in the midst of a presidential campaign. Political differences or commonalities can certainly color recollection of such old memories.

[quotes from http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp ]

EDIT: Fixed link

Esbat · 08-05-2004

Maybe he isn't pursuing a libel case because he is in the middle of a Presidential campaign and has other, more pressing matters?

He can always sue afterwards.

Or perhaps he doesn't suffer from the knee-jerk desire to sue that many do in this country (it is part of the great US Hat Trick- overweight, ignorant and fond of litigation).

Hell, I wish I could pull a lever that gave a "Vote of No Confidence" that would force better candidates to be broght forth by both parties. There isn't anyone on the ticket worth a damn, anyone who I'd trust to do a better job than myself.

Ailwon · 08-05-2004

Quote:

Hell, I wish I could pull a lever that gave a "Vote of No Confidence" that would force better candidates to be broght forth by both parties. There isn't anyone on the ticket worth a damn, anyone who I'd trust to do a better job than myself.

/agree /applaud

What we really need is a viable 3rd party to keep the current corrupt parties honest.

Bise · 08-05-2004

After reading over the whole purple heart thing... its seems that he needed to be injured 3 times before he could invoke the rule about "thrice wounded" you get to go home.

I am not sure why more isn't being made of that. While I applaud his serving over there, it seems to me that he was itching to get out of dodge and that was a pretty expident way.

mirdorr · 08-05-2004

Fyi, there's a book about this coming out soon. Unfortunately, I don't remember hte name. It's already listed at Amazon.com

Crist0 · 08-05-2004

Quote:

Maybe he isn't pursuing a libel case because he is in the middle of a Presidential campaign

Actually, if he were to prove these guys flat out wrong it would do nothing but good for that Presidential campaign. It would be a great political move if he were to show his detractors as not being truthful.

More interesting than not taking that step, is that he refuses to release his medical records and all of his fitness reports..something that would only require a two page form.

Hmmm, a two page form that would confirm my story..

Quote:

"I don't like what he said after the war," said Adrian Lonsdale, who commanded Kerry for three months in 1969. "But he was a good naval officer."

Now where did you get that quote?

Here(Adrian Lonsdale is a member of this group) is what Londsdale has to say about him:

Quote:

Now when I went there right after Tet, I was restricted in my movements. I couldn't go much of anyplace because the Vietcong controlled most of the area. When I left, I could go anywhere I wanted, just about. Commerce was booming, the buses were running, trucks were going, the waterways were filled with sampans with goods going to market, but yet in Kerry's biography he says that our operations were a complete failure. He also mentions a formal conference with me, to try to get more air cover and so on. That conference never happened..

Quote:

I don't know what conclusions you can draw about someone's ability to lead from their combat experience, but John's service was commendable," said James J. Galvin, a former Swift boat officer . . . "He played by the same rules we all did.

Of course he doesn't know firsthand, because Galvin did not serve with Kerry.

Just as an example, they say his superiors gave him good fitness reports..now if you go to the website, the officers that were above him and actually wrote those reports explain how to read them(remember, every single officer that was in Kerry's chain of command is a member of this group).

Don't rely on snopes to be your absolute guide to truth, they're wrong sometimes, and this is a good example...on the one hand you have all of the officers who were in charge of Kerry saying one thing, and then you have snopes saying they didn't really serve with him.

Swift Boat Veterans is comprised of over 250 people, including people who served with Kerry and every single officer who was ever in charge of Kerry during his short time in Vietnam. By comparison, Kerry's complete "band of brothers" contains 13 swift boat veterans, and a lot of those never even served with him.

Quote:

If these arent political... why is the site a 527

They aren't affiliated with any political party. They are however determined to correct things in Kerry's campaign, which earns them a 527 status.

Now, even if you discount everything his commanders have to say about him, and how the guy manning the guns at the incident says Kerry lied to get a bronze star(hey, your call I guess, it's a stupid move imo) you still have the doctor that treated Kerry and his commanding officer at the time saying he didn't fit the criteria for his first purple heart and in fact his commander didn't even put in for one for him(he wants to know who did).

Thormir · 08-05-2004

Quote:

Now where did you get that quote?

Snopes cites it from: 2. Braun, Stephen. "Kerry's War Tour Serves as Theme, Target." Los Angeles Times. 29 July 2004 (p. A13).

Quote:

...every single officer that was in Kerry's chain of command is a member of this group

How many of those officers in the chain of command served with Kerry on his boat, or had more intimate interaction with him than, say, Bush had with Chalabi in the oval office? My post was primarily composed of quotes from shipmates (per the references included in the Snopes post) who present a positive view of Kerry rather than people up the chain of command. I present it to show that there is a whole 'nother side to the angle you present.

It's really a shame that we lack Bush's own wartime records, but there's an irony in comparing the history of a candidate that actually fought in Vietnam with one who spent his time at home a drunkard.

08-05-2004	#5
Esbat Overlord of Mutual Confusion Joined: Dec 2002 Party: Independent Posts: 862 vCash: 1000	Maybe he isn't pursuing a libel case because he is in the middle of a Presidential campaign and has other, more pressing matters? He can always sue afterwards. Or perhaps he doesn't suffer from the knee-jerk desire to sue that many do in this country (it is part of the great US Hat Trick- overweight, ignorant and fond of litigation). Hell, I wish I could pull a lever that gave a "Vote of No Confidence" that would force better candidates to be broght forth by both parties. There isn't anyone on the ticket worth a damn, anyone who I'd trust to do a better job than myself. __________________ Esbat Unseelie As friendly, diplomatic and tactful as a bullet in flight.

08-05-2004	#8
mirdorr Overlord of Old School Joined: Apr 2002 Posts: 1,100 vCash: 1000	Fyi, there's a book about this coming out soon. Unfortunately, I don't remember hte name. It's already listed at Amazon.com __________________ Maeya, 49 Mage formerly Mirdorr, 61 bard

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08-05-2004	#3
Ailwon Kinda Respectful Midget Joined: Dec 2002 Location: Colorado Party: Independent Posts: 1,067 vCash: 1000	So we have to pick between (to steal from Louis Black) crappy and crappy for president...tell me something I don't know Also from Black: Election day - the one day you can count on feeling completely ineffectual more than any other. The one good thing....you can be having the worst day ever and still be feel better knowing "at least it's not election day:.

08-05-2004	#7
Bise Decaying Deity of Misconceptions Joined: Mar 2004 Location: Louisiana Party: N/A Posts: 1,959 vCash: 0	After reading over the whole purple heart thing... its seems that he needed to be injured 3 times before he could invoke the rule about "thrice wounded" you get to go home. I am not sure why more isn't being made of that. While I applaud his serving over there, it seems to me that he was itching to get out of dodge and that was a pretty expident way.

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