Elemak the Enchanter

At first, I was goign to make a long post, blasting you dirty euros for all the stupid/jaskass things you say, but i thought, no it wouldnt make a difference.

So to put it very simply, I don't think you will ever understand, why so many of us Americans have so much pride in our country and it's accomplishments, or why we defend it and the crazy little things we do so adamantly.

Maybe some day, your way of life will be threatened, and then you will. You'll stop taking your way of life for granted and realize, that Freedom, is not free, it's price is most often payed in blood. And thats why we teach our children to do silly things like salute the flag.

It's respect for what we have, and why we have it. Thats why we do what we do and we are the way we are.

giena

It does boil down to extremely different ways of thinking and ways of addressing problems.

Do I disagree with 99% of what our resident Euros say and do, absolutely, but that's the end result of their culture. Is it wrong or bad? Newp, just different.

But it's a prime example of how difficult it's going to be to unite this world under one form of governt, should we last that long.

In the mean time, I'm still going to make fun of the French though. It's just too much fun!

Nydia Ywalmoriel

/looks for her clue bat)

Elemak, you think that the Euros *don't* know what it is like to have their way of life threatened? (laughs incrdulously) Pride in one's country and accomplishments is one thing, but part of the reason that some of the Euros are a bit... concerned about the American nationalism and 'in your face' patriotism that has been particularly in evidence lately is
they've *seen*, first hand, where it can lead before. Talk to anyone still around who remembers Europe in the mid '30s, *before* Hitler started rolling the tanks. What's wrong with a little national pride, patriotic jingoism, etc? Or lets use a much more recent example, Serbia turning a little national pride into genocide? The fact that we're spouting this patriotic rhetoric *and* we recently rolled the tanks across Iraq, a country which posed no imminent threat to us (despite the threat he posed to his own people, etc), without UN sanction and against the objections of France and Germany (think whatever you will of their opinion or their reasons for it), and you have a very valid reason for the EU, amd much of the rest of the world, to be very nervous indeed.

Are we on the slippery slope to fascism? It seems unlikely, given the checks and balances we have in place in our democratic system, but the current administration seems both willing to sacrifice constitutional protections in the name of 'patriotism' and to be motivated by ideology over logic. And while I see nothing wrong of being proud of one's country and its accomplishments (and am very proud to be an American), think a bit about why our custom of mandatory (or at the very least coerced) reciting of the Pledge, the custom of saluting the flag, etc, might seem a little uncomfortable to the folks across the pond...

Regards,
Nydia Ywalmoriel
Autonomous Collective

mirdorr

True, Nydia, but I don't think that includes any of the 3 people the post was addressed to. Witness Ytrok's comment in another item: "Why would anyone need a gun?"

Elemak the Enchanter

Nydia I met a man who remembers Europe from the 30s and 40s, he thanked me, and my parents, and my grandparents, while showing me the number that had been tatoo'd on his arm.

Oddly enough he was a frenchman.

Trust me, I know all about history, and thats part of my point you see, many Euros have forgotten, or try to forget, perhaps some of it is because as Americans we do have the bad habit of reminding them why it is they don't all speak German, or Japanese.

My post is more of a "we're never going to agree, so lets just agree to disagree" and leave it at that, you don't understand us, you might not ever, perhaps if you, yourself lived through some of the things we have, you might understand us, and perhaps if we had experiences similar to yours we might understand you better.

But we havent yet, so knock the bullshit off, the grass is always greener in your own back yard.

aesahaetr

Lol,ok that comment is just laughable and prooves how arrogant and ill-informed you really are.As Nydia pointed out so eloquently,how many times in the past do you think european countrys have been threatened by tyrannical regimes ? hell the gauls and English were being opressed by the romans centuries ago.Also fyi the US recently has been far closer to being the oppresser than the oppressed.I hope that a decent democrat gets back into office soon,or the US may just turn into the thing they are supposed to hate the most.

Now i`m not saying my countys perfect,in fact i`m disgusted at the recent actions of our government.Assisting the US in the "war on Iraq" was something the majority of the population was opposed to.Yet the prime minister went ahead and assisted anyway.In all the myst of the US and UK crying " they have weapons of mass-destruction!!!! lets get them before they get us! " People were protesting and scoffing at these completly unproven alligations.Now we find ourselves with no evidence of weapons of that sort at all.Which most of us knew was the case all along,and the prime minister is in alot of hot water about flasified reports,misleading dossies,etc
It is highly unlikely that he will be elected again.Can you say the same thing about bush ?


[ edit ] Ohh i forgot to add that i,like alot of european people are very grateful for the US coming to our aid in WW2.Though the US didn`t just assist us because they felt sorry for us.If England had fallen to Germany and they became masters of Europe.Where do you think thier attention would have turned next ?

Karmon Shadowstalker

If England had fallen to Germany and they became masters of Europe.Where do you think thier attention would have turned next ?

Russia?

We coulda taken 'em.

Elemak the Enchanter

Plenty, you'd think they would clue in to the whole thing.

I was thinking about it at work, I think what it boils down to is some of what Nydia was talking about, but not quite how she put it.

We as Americans are a very Ideological people, we have causes and we fight for them, some are stupid, like the mothers against violent video games, some are good, like Mothers against drunk driving. But through and through we are a very passionate poeple, and we tend to do something about it, and get pissed off when others won't.

It's just a matter of opinion on what matters, to some they don't feel the threat of terrorism is enough to warrant the US prescence in Iraq, and Afghanistan, but then they didnt live through the same things we did in the same way.

My point, is we're never going to reach agreement, some people think America sucks (to include some Americans) they don't like what we do, they don't understand why we do it. And like with any kind of person you can't understand them until you have at least shared similar experiences (walk a mile in their shoes) So just agree to disagree is about the best we'll ever manage.

jdawg112

The main problem with Iraq is that Bush Sr. didn't finish the job properly the first time, handing a clusterfuckage over to Clinton, and now Bush Jr. is trying to do what daddy didn't.

As for patriotism, I think people of most countries of the world are patriotic, some to greater degrees than others.

I also find the entire premise that Americans(meaning the folks that live in the US) are mostly a bunch of arrogant, self indulgent asshole who have a twisted view of most of the rest of the world. If this is so, please tell me why the USA spends more money, more by a longshot, than any other country in modern history to help and aid other countries, friend & even foe. Tell me why there are more charity organizations that provide for people outside our country, than any other country in the world. Tell me why the US government has likely stopped nuclear war on more than one account, and I'm not speaking of the current Iraq or Korea situations.

Yes there are some dumbfuck Americans who are just idiots. But don't fool yourselves, there are equally as many or likely even more Europians who have a totally fucked up bassackwards view of the US and its population. And yes, I've spent a pretty reasonable amount of time in Europe.

So to all you assjackle EU fuckers who are so high and mighty, suck a fat dick!

ViBeSJoKeR

Maybe you don't know .. but the History of my country goes back pretty far and in that time we have fought multiple wars.
We have had wars lasting 80 years we fought the Vikings, the English, the French the Asians, the Germans etc etc .... We are still here.
Now .. to say that we don't thank the US for assisting all the other Allies is not true. However our gratitude ends as soon as this forces us into wars that we do not support (Iraq).

To say that we hate the US is also pretty foolish but I have come to the understanding that to not support your cause means to be against your cause and that must explain why you feel we hate the US when we dissagree with some of your points of view.

If you want us to thank you every time for what you did 50 years ago I assume you should thank the Dutchies for what we did approx 300 years ago for you.

You seem to feel that the US is better then the rest (at least that is what I get to see on tv, read a lot in these posts etc etc ) and that to us kinda makes you arrogant people (and we are aware not every person from the US is like that). I also know that in times of war (and as I understand it you are at war atm) the American people get together as one strong team against their opponents (also understandable). But you forget something...

First of a lot of European countries are in Iraq fighting at your side (mine included). A lot of Europeans have seen the face of Tyrrany, have seen what 1 man can do to millions of people because people believed in him and followed him. We have seen muder and terror for over 2000 years and we know when we have to think about who to follow and who not to follow.

We do not grow up saluting our flag, we do not grow up singing our national anthem, we grow up to create our own feel and ideas on how we want to love our country and for what reasons. We do not grow up using guns, we can't even buy one, so it is pretty obvious we see absolutely no reasons why people should own a gun.
We don't grow up speaking one language, we get tought at least 4 (Dutch English German and French) at the age of 12+ so we can communicate with the rest of this world and we are not tought to be thinking we are the best of the best on the face of the earth.

The thing is (I think) that you do not or don't want to, look at things from our perspective because you don't see the need or you feel that we should just shut up and do as you tell us. We get tought to fight against people like you. We get tought to never ever follow blindly no matter who is in charge.

To end ..

I understand why you think I hate Americans, I understand why you can not understand me feeling you don't need a gun, I understand why you salute your flag and I understand why you follow your President so blindly into war when he directs you on that path. I don't hate you for it and I don't pity you for it because you all too have a free mind and the choice to follow or to turn around.
We think different, we act different and we are different ... I don't hate you for it. I do understand your agression towards me because I often dissagree with how you do things and you probably feel as if this is a personal attack. So be it then...

Greets...

Btw .. I will change my board handle to my RL name after this so people can make it more personal when they attack me instead of attacking the name of a toon. My RL name is Ralf (pronounced Ralph) just so you know...